MMA Fighting - Roundtable: What Is Dana White’s Most Memorable Feud With A UFC Champion?

Episode Date: May 27, 2023

UFC President Dana White and bantamweight champion Aljamain Sterling are making headlines right now with a public feud over Sterling possibly not being ready for UFC 292, which would be shocking were it not for the boss' long history of butting heads with some of the promotion's biggest stars. From all-time greats to unappreciated champs, White has frequently found ways to get on the bad side of UFC titleholders. Sometimes it's about money, sometimes it's about fighters bowing down to the UFC's plans, and sometimes it feels like White just doesn't like someone. Regardless, it's never a bad time to refresh everyone's memory when it comes to White's bizarre penchant for anti-promotion. MMA Fighting's Shaheen Al-Shatti, Alexander K. Lee, Damon Martin, and Jed Meshew, dig deep into the mind of the most powerful man in MMA to figure out what motivates these constant conflicts and discuss the four most important White vs. UFC champion grudges. Follow Alexander K. Lee: @AlexanderKLee Follow Damon Martin: @DamonMartin Follow Jed Meshew: @JedKMeshew Follow Shaun Al-Shatti: @ShaunAlShatti Subscribe: http://goo.gl/dYpsgH Check out our full video catalog: http://goo.gl/u8VvLi Visit our playlists: http://goo.gl/eFhsvM Like MMAF on Facebook: http://goo.gl/uhdg7Z Follow on Twitter: http://goo.gl/nOATUI Read More: http://www.mmafighting.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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but a new threat has arisen that could destroy their stored consciousness forever. Listen to Oscar winner Brendan Fraser reprised his role as Rosco Cudulian in this follow-up to the audible original blockbuster, the downloaded. It's a thought-provoking sci-fi journey where identity, memory, and morality collide. Robert J. Sawyer does it again with this much-anticipated sequel that leaves you asking, what are you willing to lose to save the ones you love? The downloaded two, Ghosts in the Machine, available now, only from Audible. All right, guys, thank you, everyone who is tuning in right now to the M.A. Fighting Podcast Network.

We have a special roundtable for you today, touching upon some recent events involving one Mr. Dana White, one Mr. Al Jermaine Sterling. We're going to talk about that for a bit. We're also going to talk about the big boss and his history of feuding with champions. I'll get more into all of that. And a second, first, of course, I want to let you guys know who your esteemed panel is today. I am joined by three brilliant minds. First of all, one Mr. Jed Michoud.

What a do. Excited to talk about Dana White. One Mr. Shaheen Al-Shadi. What's up, fellas? This should be a fun one. And one, Mr. Damon Martin. Putting on the wayback machine for all these fun fused throughout UFC history. Yes, it's the right time for it, we feel, because again, I'm sure as a lot of you guys have seen in the headlines, Dana White and his bantamate champion, Al Jermaine Sterling,

not really getting along, not really on the same page as far as Sterling's next towel defense against Sean O'Malley. There is some perceived disrespect going both. ways. Alves Remain seemingly being rushed into his next offense despite, you know, letting it be known that he's got some injures going on. So there's been some ugliness there. But it's not the first time. It's not the first time. So we want to, we gather here together today because we want to talk about some of Dana White's other feuds. This one's ongoing. This one we may remember, who knows, we may be talking about his feud with Al Jermaine Sterling, you know,

10 years from now, or maybe the fight just goes through a schedule, and we don't mention anymore. I'm talking about Al Jermaine Sterling 10 years from now. I'm going to be disappointed with the life choices I've made. He's a great fan of white champion. But Dana White certainly has had some past views, which have stood the test of time, I guess, is the nicest way to put it. Some, I'm sure fans would rather forget. Some I'm sure fans love that they happen. Some of the newer fans might not be aware that some of these fuse went down.

So, guys, yeah, we are going to talk about, you know, Dana White, these famous feuds. Also, I want to, before I go, I do want to say why these feuds happen. So before we get to, we all sort of have our picks, get people inside baseball here. We've all kind of made our picks before the show, so there's no overlap with a will be honorable mention. So please, people, why are listening to the show, don't DM us and go like, oh, how could you not mention Dana and this fighter? We've covered pretty much all the bases, I feel confident saying. But I do want to get your guys' opinion. I have my own theory on it.

So before I go on a rant, why is Dana White like this? You guys, anyone can tell them? What if we like this? We also narrowed it down to champions. There's other plenty of fighters in the UFC outside the UFC that Dana White is feuded with. We are saying these are, we are just talking UFC champion versus Dana White feuds today. But yeah, why, guys? Why do these happen?

Since we narrowed it down to champions, I'm a little sad. I can't go back to the time Dana White just absolutely obliterated Ben Asgren before he got to the EOC, but that's neither here nor there, if you guys remember that famous interview from Dana White. But, yeah, Dana. Can we talk about that instead? I didn't know that AK was about to ask us to delve into Dana White's psyche. This is a very different and much darker pod than I'm prepared for. I mean, we're going to have to, I think every feud we talk about, there's going to be little,

probably different angles that expose, you know, aspects of why he's like this. but I do want to get your sort of overall thoughts, so whoever wants to go in first. I will say looking back on a lot of this, because once we narrowed it down to champions, I think that was an important distinction because there are just too many, right? Like, if you're not narrowing it down to champions, you're looking at a group of 400 different possible things you could go back and look at. It seems like there are a lot of fighters that Dana White has had problem with over the years. But in doing this exercise, it was illuminating in one respect because, A, so many of these

happen that it blends together and you forget like really most of them and like the elements of a lot of them start to blend together which in and of itself says something that if this many champions of the organization are feuding with the lead figurehead what does that say but also too it to me it was so i don't know if funny is the right word i guess maybe funny in retrospect of that because you stare at this list and a very clear theme emerges and that theme is just are you one of the best of your era? Because if so, it's probably a good chance. Your boss said some real terrible shit about you in public. And there's probably an even better chance that at some point, he kind of just alluded to the fact that you're terrified to fight random guy number four in your division

because you were questioning why, you know, you were either not getting respect or money from the UFC. It's very consistent in that respect. It should almost be a badge of honor if Dana White has feuded with you. That's how you know you've made it, right? Sorry, Damon, go ahead. I think there's two major factors to this. One, and I think it's a common theme, is anybody who doesn't walk the company line, who's willing to stand up, whether it's for money or a certain opponent or, you know, timing of a five, I mean, the list goes on and on. Just standing up for yourself and not to not towing the company line is point positive number one.

You know what I mean? Like he, at one point, again, I know we're talking about non-champ, we're talking about champions, but at one point he actually intimated, this is not long ago. It was like two years ago. He intimated that maybe Dustin Porriere doesn't want tough fights because he didn't want to fight Tony Ferguson on like three weeks notice. We all kind of like, Dustin Porre really? That's the guy who doesn't want to fight Dustin Porre. So that's number one.

Anybody who does not just tow the company line is immediately on the radar. And I think number two, playing into the psychology of Dana White is he's a hothead with no filter. Now, a lot of fans will say, well, that's great. We don't have a Roger Goodell or a guy who's just going to be doing the Bull Durham speech. We've got to play them one game at a time and the real generic things that most commissioners or leaders of league say. But on the flip side, there is no filter. So he says a lot of regrettable things because he has nobody to tell him not to say it. So I think those are the two factors.

You don't tow the company line and then Dana will just say whatever he wants because there's no repercussion. And I think that's been proven throughout history, whether it was Lorenzo, Fritita and those guys owning the company or endeavor, Dana White has no filter and no one seems to care what he says. I would even expand it out beyond just not towing the company line, though, because you said the line to me, Damon, that strikes true the most, which is anybody who dares stand up for themselves whatsoever in any respect. Because some of these too are just like things where people were almost like the champions

were almost just responding to the criticism that they already had received. And so it's like, how dare you stand up for yourself and we're saying all these things? about you public. It's so, it's, it's, it's wholly MMA and wholly UFC and wholly unique to the sport, because it's not something that could happen in basketball or football or anything like that. Shaheen, you sound exasperated already. We're just getting started by the way. We haven't even dealt into specific views yet. It's, it's one of those things like you look at, you look at the stuff that's happening with Aljo in Francis, and it's like we're so numb to it at this point. It's just another thing that's happening on that given day. But then you go back and you look at some of the old

quotes where it's like, Jed, you brought this up in our Slack room. We were talking about this, about the AKA thing, where all of AKA gets released from the UFC or banned from the UFC because they wouldn't sign them. For like 24 hours is the best. Because they dared to not sign over their likeness in perpetuity for the rest of their life for this UFC video game. And all the quotes coming out from Dana back that are just like, you read them. It's just like, oh my God, man, what are you talking about just crapping on all these dudes because they dared not sign over themselves for for no money essentially for like a very small sum for the rest of their life and it's just I got nothing.

We were talking about doing this and we made a list and we all kind of came up with the guys we wanted to talk about and I'm not kidding when I say this. We got a list of like everybody potentially there and what we were calling honorable mentions guys who went to war with Dana White but maybe not as prolific as some of the guys, because some of the guys we're going to talk about here today. I just typed in list of UFC champions and went through every division because I was like at some point,

Dana has probably said something about three quarters of this list, like whoever they were. Like it wasn't like remembering who didn't, who he did feud with. It was like who didn't he feud with throughout the history of the UFC. Like there's just a list is so remarkably long. Now again, some were better and somewhere worse. But that was like,

how far I went. Like, I just looked their list because I was like, I'm sure he feuded with everybody on here at one point or another. But again, the list is also like, are you a goat? Like, do people consider you a goat? You're probably on that list. You're probably on the Dana list. We've mentioned it's, you know, it's just kind of natural. You reach a certain level of prestige. You're going to, you know, you're going to bump heads with the brass. That makes sense. We've mentioned, you know, not towing the company line as often led to conflicts. Jed, what do you want to add? Please limit your thoughts on your psychological breakdown of Dana White to 10 minutes or less, please.

But of course, we want to hear your, your, yeah. No, I won't even give a huge breakdown on Dana because it just feels like beating a dead horse. If you know, Dana White is not some super special, unique individual. His circumstances are he's the head of this company, but you grew up with people like Dana White. I certainly did. They are who they are, and that's not going to change in the way they interact with the world around them is that way. Dana just happens to be doing it on a grander scale because he is the head of a multi-billion dollar enterprise. And there are other heads of multi-billion dollar enterprises who act exactly the same way to their employees.

It's just not they're actually employees and not contractors, and it's not in a very public forum like this. So I don't have anything to break down on Dana. Like he's not a unique individual. I will say that while Shaheen has this bit of exasperated, you know, just tiredness of all of this, I feel somewhat of the inverse as I look at this. Because I say like, you know, Damon just mentions we just had a list longer than my arm of people that he champions that he's feuded with. And to me when I look at that, I can understand. understand. And maybe it's, maybe this is too jaded of me. But I can get to be like, man, it would be cool if Dana White would just be fucking cool instead of being, being him. But I was just on BTL and talking about this. And it was like, to me, I look at this list of people. And they know what they're getting into. Like, they're not all morons. And if they are, you're dumb. Like you are signing up for this to be your.

business relationship, a promoter who the first time you check against him for whatever reason, he is going to let you have it and drag you publicly in ways that may or may not be true. John Jones is viewed with him multiple times and he keeps coming back. And so I don't really have that much sympathy for him because he is acknowledging that this is it. And if you look at this as an entirely adversarial thing, which is a fair way to couch it, right? Dana wins. Dana always wins. And so if you as a fighter know

the major history of this, then just don't pick the fight or take your ball and go home, because that's the only way for you to win is to be Francis Inganu and to just leave and live a happier, healthier life

away from this sort of negativity. And that was honestly the big thought I had is looking through. It was like, man, that's a lot of people. At some point, you would think that any of these people would be like, I'm just, my, just going to go away. But no, they all stick with it for whatever reasons. The John Jones example is the perfect, like, example of how this all plays out, right? Because it's the Logan Roy thing.

It's if you've watched Succession this final season, it's when the warmth is on you, it's so warm, right? Like when you're the number one boy, it's such a nice thing. And John Jones is the number one boy right now. And then, like, you look back two years ago, one year ago, even when they were trying to negotiate with John with a job over this Francis fight. He was very much not the number one boy. And then he's the one who's scared to fight Francis. Six years ago when John kept getting in trouble, he's not the number. Like, it's just, they're signing up. He's the man who murdered an event. Like he's obviously out there in my inbox still. I, that's the thing. That's my thought here is that, like, yes, we can get up in arms about Dan.

of white feuding with people and how that is just the textbook definition of being a bad promoter and sure i'm here like i agree fundamentally with the premise but also tiger ain't going to change his freaking stripes and so i don't need to bash my head against the wall of this because it just it this cake is baked it just is what it is and i don't have to be up in arms with it and instead i can be like why do you guys keep eating the shitty cake I will know that it's bad. Stop eating it. I will say, though, I think there is, I find myself always surprised by the depths of which this

sort of reaches. Because, like, the Al Jermain one is hilarious. Well, the Algeman one, I think is a good example of, like, how flippant and ridiculous some of this can get, right? Because, like, ultimately, what started the Algeman one? Al Jardine Sterling defends his title against Henry Suhudo a couple weeks ago, and then immediately gets thrown into a fight that he didn't agree to that his body may or may not be ready for that is on some of the quickest turnaround

we ever see for a UFC champion. And the mere fact that he brings up like, hey, I didn't agree to this and I might not be able to make this, then leads to some sort of Dana rant to which he has to respond at that point because he is put in that position of looking like he's looking like the wimp, right?

He's looking like somebody. Doesn't have to respond. Just take it. No, but if you're that person, if you're that person, if you're Al Jemate Sterling, if you're the dude who's like, hey, I just did this, I'm like a historic champion at this point with the numbers I'm putting up and you're already getting at me?

Like, I haven't even had a chance to have the bruising leave my body from this last fight before we're already doing this again. But then he says his piece. Dana responds again. And at this point, it's like we're arguing about respect. We're arguing about like, can you just respect the fact that I'm doing this for you? And Dana White's already been like, you don't have to do this. I'll throw it. we can do an interim title to a person who fought two weeks ago.

Like this, I find myself continually surprised with how the means with which this stuff happens, I guess. Chad, go ahead. And then I want to pick the perfect analogy here for you. And it's really almost just exactly the situation. I don't know if y'all watched South Park or previously watched South Park. The Gay Fish episode, I don't know if you remember the Kanye and the joke.

Oh yeah. The premise of the episode is largely that Jimmy writes a joke that everyone declares as the funniest joke in the history of the world. And then Cartman tries to take credit for it. And at one point, I think it's Clyde. And Jimmy's like, no, I wrote the joke. Cartman didn't do anything. He shouldn't get credit. And Clyde just like, just give him half.

He's only asking for half, be thankful, and give him half. And at the end of the episode, Cartman has taken him. in all of the joke because that's what Cartman does. Dana White is Eric Cartman. It's very, very simple. Al Jermaine Sterling, just give him half. Just say, okay, Dana, and don't respond. Because you're not going to win this,

because you don't have legions of fans celebrating you. You cannot look good or win this fight. Just give him half. That's such a harsh, like, a conclusion to come to, but also, if you look at the history of... Dead true? Well, yeah, I'm saying if you look at the history of fighters who have quote unquote played ball and given Dana half or more than half, some have given, I would say given Dana more than half in a, you know, they're well, like, well recognized by the fans, like the fans. And more importantly, look at all the people we're about to talk about.

I'm saying some of the names we mentioned. How many of them got half? And reputation wise, some of them never recovered from their feuds with Dana White. And like Dana White's word is like gospel when it comes to some of these fighters' careers. Again, we're going to get to some of these. Super quick, let me just a quote. Sheen had a quote, and you literally read my mind when you said this. I had pulled up the quotes.

I want to remember exactly what it said. It's from Gangs of New York, the great Leonardo DiCaprio. It's a funny feeling being taken under the wing of a dragon. It's warmer than you think. And that quote, when it comes to this, is because what you said is 100% correct. He will stone you to death publicly. But then when you're back in his good graces, he will be. builds you up higher than you've ever been built before.

John Jones is the greatest fighter ever right now. Nobody can beat him. He would dispatch Francis Ngano in 45 seconds, according to Dana White, and he is the ultimate ego boost. And that's what it is. It's hard to walk away from that kind of adoration from your boss, right? But you easily forget about it. And then the other side of that is GSP, like George St. Pierre,

who is, we all know, like one of the nicest. people. He's Canadian. I mean, come on. He's one of the nicest guys ever. He always just constantly said, uh, it's just Dana being Dana. That's what we've, that's our, that is the sport. It's just Dana being Dana. That is the answer to everything we're talking about here. We've all just come to understand. It's just Dana being Dana. I love that we, we had to go to succession, uh, South Park and a gangs of New York to try to just, Very diverse pub culture comparisons to sort of try and explain this bizarre, no other dynamic like it in the world of sports relationship that Dana White has and has had with his champions and past champions. It's incredibly strange.

The only thing I'll say quickly is, like, his views for me are a, you know, our function of his being the boss. It's like, I think it kind of goes with what Shaheen said. You reach a certain level of prestige. It's his job to keep you at a certain level. And that's always been what's best for the UFC is when his name's not getting bigger in the UFC. The couple of times they've sort of allowed that was with, of course, Connor McGregor and Rhonda Rousey. And both of those turned out to be like hugely beneficial for the promotion. But those are two exceptions out of, again, many, many, many names will see where.

I actually disagree about Rousy or McGregor. No, no, just about the, I think that that's, like, there's maybe some piece of that. But I don't, I really don't think this is some master plan by Dana. I don't think it's a master plan by him, but I think there's a reason he's been the figurehead for so long. I do think that's one of his roles is to make sure the UFC brand is number one no matter what. And he just so naturally goes into these views anyway, it's, and it's what works. I think, I agree on the brand thing. I don't, I think it's much simpler.

It's Dana White does, is un-in-capable of admitting, fault. And that's like, he's not the only person who's that way. God knows I, certainly when I was younger was that way. And so if everything, if the way you approach life is everything's adversarial, everything's us versus them, and you are incapable of admitting fault, everything is going to be a conflict and very quickly. And so it can't be like, hey man, I, you know, hand up. Al Joe said he wasn't quite ready. And what we're really targeted. this one and we know that he can be there. It can't be.

It's Aljo's a pussy. Like just can fight. It has to be that way because he cannot admit failing ever. And so to me it's, that's always been the very simple answer to why these feuds happen. Damon, let's go to you first for, I think, a pretty strong example of one of his earliest feuds with a, someone was a huge star. I don't want to say obviously not the first star of the UFC and kind of had a weird, you know, kind of was a very, you know, kind of was a very few fews. when that weird spot where the UFC was like trying to get back into, you know, to the mainstream.

And it kind of held that torch there. Well-known, M. Mayfair could to this day. I don't want to set it. I don't want to spoil. Are we doing our picks now? Is that what this is? Yeah, let's go to the individuals here. And I think it, Damon's is the best one to start off with because really an incredible

feud that played out in the public eye. And this was before, I don't say before, well, probably before social media, right? It was like before. It was very much before. Social media, definitely. If it played out now in the way in which it played out, it would be the most insane story that has happened in the history of any sport ever. And it's one we have to make sure people don't forget because there's many, many parts

of it kind of laid the blueprints for future Dana White feuds, but also at the same time, there's parts of it that are unique that I don't think we'll see in any Dana White feud ever again. So go ahead, David. Yeah. So the number, and not that this is a competition by any stretch of imagination, but the feud to end all feuds for Dana White, without a doubt, is his long, long, long time feud with former light heavyweight champion Tito Ortiz. And I would disagree with you on one thing you said there, A.K., Tito was the first real huge UFC star. I know, I know Hoyce Gracie, obviously, was the face early on.

But Tito was the real transcendent star. When he became a star, you know, around, when he beat Ken Shamrock and that UFC 40 time, like, he was a star. Like, they were getting interviewed on national network television for the first time ever. So, yeah, I would say Tito was the first, like real massive crossover star. Beyond Ken Shamrock, of course, who went to WWE. That's how he got famous or more famous, I should say, when he had that whole appeal. Dana White, Tino Ortiz was in the UFC for several fights. Him and Dana White met, became friends.

Dana was living in Vegas and working at the time. You ever famously know, he was a boxer-sized instructor. You know, he'd been friends with, you know, he'd been around the boxing industry forever. He got to know Tito, and he eventually signed Tito to be his manager. And he was managing Tito Ortiz and Chuck Lidl early in their careers in the UFC. And Dana has famously said he went to the UFC and got the more money, got the to better contracts, blah, blah, blah. Fast forward to 2001.

The UFC is basically going out of business. They're going under, and Dana talks to his boyhood friends. The Fritita brothers talks them into buying the UFC. They buy the UFC together, but as a sacrifice of that, Dana has to stop managing Tito and Chuck. Now, Dana claims Chuck was okay with this. Tito panicked and freaked out. But long story short, he couldn't do it.

And Dana says at that point, everything with his relationship with Tito became adversarial because they went from manager and fighter to fighter and promoter. And meanwhile, Tito says that Dana hooked him up with a lawyer to become his new manager, but that lawyer was a friend of Dana's who just basically catered to whatever the UFC want, never fought for him to get more money, never fought for him to get a better contract. So that was the start of it. But this feud escalated in so many different ways.

I mean, these two got into a fist fight. on a plane to Japan once upon a time, and most famously back in whatever was 2007, I believe, to sign a new deal with the UFC, Tito Ortiz had it put into his contract that he had to box Dana White in a legit boxing match that they were going to train for that eventually fell apart. We've heard a million different versions of story about why it fell apart. Dana says Tito was convinced he's going to get his ass kicked on live television. Tito says he found that he wasn't getting paid for it so he wouldn't do it, even though from my memory, not to take Dana aside on this, for my memory, it was all just supposed to be

like a way to like, you know, basically for Tito to punch his boss in the face as like retribution for their feud, I never knew it had anything to the money, but that's neither here nor there. Damon, let's pause. They got to the point where they're going to box each other. Yeah, we can't gloss over this. We can't, we have to take a pause here because we're, listen, we're now in the age of, of influencer boxing, freak show boxing. This was

like insane back then. This was insane. This was you know, there was a lot of jokes about Dana White starting off as like a boxer-sized guy and then the Frater brothers gave him however many gave him the UFC, gave him the reins. So like the fact that this was even being discussed, this was

16 years ago now, 17 years ago. Yeah, yeah, 2007, I believe. It sounds so unbelievable. Like, for anyone who's not familiar, They were probably kind of following you up to that point. They're like, okay, contract dispute. Oh, their relationship changed. Wait, what?

And then they were going to box each other? But this was real. Like you said, this was something that was put down. I believe we can say it was probably put down on paper at some point. Oh, it was in the contract. Tito had it in his contract. That was how he got re-signed. They put it in his contract as part of his negotiation to re-sign with the UFC

that he had to have a boxing match with Dana White. and Dana White agreed to do it. And it went from what it seemed like it was going to be like a behind closed doors, kind of like sparring session. It just continued to escalate because people found out about it, so everyone's interested. It got to the point where they were going to produce it as a special on Spike TV at the time. And the fight eventually fell apart.

But they still produced a one-hour documentary called Bad Blood, Two-Dohr-Doumys versus Dana White. You can find online. I don't know if it's on UFC Fight Pass, but I know you can find it online. It's an hour-long documentary talking about how much Dana and Tito hated each other. And they were training for the, it was supposed to be the lead-in to the boxing match. The boxing match got canceled.

But they released the documentary, an hour-long documentary about Dana and Tito hating each other. It's basically like a UFC countdown. Like it's like a prime time. Like it is like a well-produced special about this ridiculous thing. And can you imagine in 2023 if throw out anybody. if Glover to Chera when he was champion was going to box Dana White and we were getting a UFC countdown to Shera versus White before this event, how the world would handle this.

The funny thing is like, it doesn't even happen now. We'd all be kind of like disgusted. I think we'd be disgusted. I mean, okay, Jess. I disagree with that. You got for yourself. No, no, no, no. That's not how the tools were supposed to resolve conflicts.

But back then, I will say back then, I would have been much more amenable to it. how people are supposed to resolve conflicts. A.K., who's never read a history book in this. Alexander Cayley, if part of Francis and Gano resigning for the John Jones fight was Francis was going to boxed Dana White. There would be zero to discuss that would emanate from you on any of our shows. You would be the most powerful.

They would power slap. They would power slap, not box. I don't approve it. I don't approve of violence outside of the cage. Power slapping Francis and Gano sounds much worse than boxing Francis and Gondon. Damon, did you mention the T-shirts? I don't know if you're getting to that. The T-O-R-Tis, the T-Sherts.

Oh, yeah, Dana used to wear T-N-C would wear. Tito would wear, was it Dana White's My Bitch? Was that the shirt? Yeah, Dana-Wites my bitch. I mean, it was... I did that today. Imagine a fighter doing that. It's ridiculous.

It was ridiculous. Like, I went back, I just typed in Dana and White, Tito, Ortiz is my name, because I was around to actually cover this when it happened from the very beginning. and I wrote so many articles about this and going back and reading some of the quotes, it's insane the things these guys said about each other. I mean, at one point, Tito equated his UFC career to slavery, and then Dana said, does he even know what that word means?

He says, slavery to stupidity. That was a quote that Dana unraveled on Tito. I mean, like, again, we were not in social media area at 2007. When this thing got really nasty in that 2007 era, we were just, we were still just an internet. We're not social media at all. To think about any of the stuff that Dana and Tito said to each other or did in those days happening now, our minds would be blown. Quagraphics everywhere over social media and all this.

Like, it somehow, it feels obscene and it's absurd to say that Dana White now is like a significantly toned down version of the old school Dana White. But it is so it is so abundantly true when you go through and look at some of these old quotes. at like how a lot of this used to operate and the way that these guys used to talk. The way he talks about, like the way he talks about Francis and Al Jermaine is like, you might as well think he's your best friend. Like that's how tame it is.

It's a two out of ten compared to it. The things he said about Tito and said towards Tito in those days, oh my God. Like it was just, I mean, just can read any of the quotes. It was so bad. Like this is,

Dana of now is so toned down by comparison. Like I think the only person that has come close to getting that level of from Dana White is Oscar de la Jolla. That's it. Outside of that, Tito is alone in those days, like, comparison to what we get in like 2023. With Amex Platinum, $400 in annual credits for travel and dining means you not only satisfy your travel bug, but your taste buds too.

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I assume they'd already come up with this, that line that as real as it gets, right? As real as it gets. It's like, you won't see this in any other, you won't see this in any other sport. That's for, that's for a darn sure. You won't see at the time, I guess, David Stern. You're telling me, like Roger. You're seeing pro wrestling. Roger Goodell and Tom Brady aren't going to, aren't going to fist fight over deflate

gate or whatever. Can I mention also, if you do get a chance to talk it, check out that document. That's a, that documentary. Please, please go watch it because the opening of the documentary, they play. the face the pain music you know what I'm telling you we everyone knows what I'm talking about I hope the face the pain music and there's intercut clips of Dana running and doing boxing drills oh my god like they were really selling this thing it is hilarious but it's like it doesn't sound like real life like this could never happen this should never happen but yet it was real

it really actually happened although it never actually happened because they never boxed but and I want to I want to get to sort of again the proto elements of this because, again, much of Tito's beef, as he kind of touched upon, Dane was like, he wanted, you know, he was fighting for, why do, why do fighters not get paid more money? Why do the, why can't I have my own brand? You know, my, what was it, a punishment? Why can't punish my athletics?

And eventually he did work out something when he coached the ultimate fighter years later. His team actually got to wear team punishment gear instead of like standard ultimate fighter gear. So it's weird. He was fighting, regardless of what you think of Tito now, you know, his politics, his comments, just his personality in general, he was fighting for something that fighters are still fighting for today, or some fighters are anyway, more money, more negotiating power, you know, sponsorship power, things like that.

So this feud, again, if we're calling his the first great feud, the first feud with his real superstar, there's so much to learn from it. And that's why I'm glad we want to do it first, as stupid as it sounds, there's a lot to it all stems back to what me and she said at the start of the podcast. who was the first got to really stand up to Dana White, Tito Ortiz. Like, Tito has gone. Tito has fallen down the crazy tree a couple of times and hit every branch on the way down. But if you really drill it down to what started that feud, it was Tito wanting more than

Dana was willing to give him. And that escalated into, and again, I'm not saying Tito couldn't have been wrong along the way. I'm sure both of them did really, regrettable stupid things. But what we said at the very beginning stands true. The first famous feud, which it was the first few, because it started when Dana became owner of the UFC, so it has to be the first ever feud. The first feud is exactly what he said. Tito stood up for himself or stood for something. He wanted more than what Dana was willing to give him. And it exploded.

And that's exactly what every other story we talk about today is some version of that same story. I do want to say too It is funny In retrospect now Knowing everything that we know Thinking about how all this started For Dana White of him being on the other side Right of him being that manager

Who's like oh no Tito and Chuck You're not paying him enough Got to give him bigger fight purses Like him being that guy And then now what he's become It's quite a journey Is there anything else you guys want to add at this Again there's so much to it

We really can't do any of these feuds their full justice like David said, check, if anything, go find the bad blood, you know, fight for everything, just to get a taste, get a taste of what was going on with these guys. And the crazy thing is, by the way, I guess we say, Tito, it was kind of resolved.

Tito would continue to fight for the UFC for many, many, many, many years after. And they seem to be on okay terms now. I think we could say that they kind of get along, I guess. I don't know how much of relationship they have, but. I don't know if they get along,

because Dana has my comments on this one I got a couple and there one is that this is always the feud Dana refers to when a new feud pops up and he's inevitably asked with

are you and Aljo going to be able to figure it out like if I could work with Tito I can make it work with anybody because he says that quote probably about every single person else

we're going to talk about the only other thing I want to mention on this one is I think this is the number one feud and it should be and also this is the feud where Dana is the most wrong.

Like Dana is the most in the wrong of all the feuds. Oh. Because at this point in time, there's really no proof of concept for the business model of the UFC. It is, Tito is asking for

something exceedingly reasonable given the circumstances. I generate revenue. I want a bigger cut of that revenue. And I think anyone objectively can look at that and say yes. These other ones we're going to talk about,

yes, I morally think fighters should get paid more. But Dana has a much better argument to be like, Al Jermaine Sterling, if we booted you from the UFC tomorrow, our bottom line would not be affected by a single penny. And thus you are worth what we deem to give you. It's like a legitimate business argument. Throws morals out the window,

but that's fine for the sake of this. the Tito one, Dana just came at it the exact same way as if he already had a $12 billion company behind him. I was like, I'm not going to give you an extra $20, dude. I don't care that you're the guy selling this. And so it's the one he's the most on the wrong side of the argument, but he still just forced it through. And he eric Cartman the shit out of this. And now here we are. And to give credit where credit is do, I actually remember the quote that Tito.

game, I think it was more recently when he talked about it and he said why he didn't do the boxing match. He said it's because he wasn't going to get paid for it. And from my, from my memory, it was never supposed to be about money. It was supposed to be about them settling their grudges in the K or the ring. I just, so I'm at the wayback machine. I found an article I read. I found an article I wrote in 2006 to give you a, to give you some timeline here. And Dana's quoted the time when I, I can't remember if I asked me a question or somebody asked him the question about the boxing match and he said about, he said it will never be seen

by any fans or spectators and Dana said, I'll beat him up in private. So to give Tito a little credit, the fight was never supposed to be publicized it was supposed to be behind closed doors, but then it escalated into where they were going to literally broadcast it on Spike TV. So yeah, this

that was just A plus work from Dana right there because like probably does lose, but maybe not. Maybe not. There's no way Tito comes out of that looking good by struggling to outbox the fight from. Did you see, did you see Dato against Anderson? Are we really so sure it would have been a mismatch with Dana?

I remember at the time thinking like, there's a real chance Tito loses. That's the thing. Let's be clear. Like Tito, even back then when he was very good at fist fighting, was not good at the fist part of it. Like that was,

there was a chance that Dana won that. Gentlemen, let's move on to a feud that I'm going to say is a little more nuanced, but also kind of has a historical footnote involved. All of these is nuanced as an Anne-Ryan novel. This is another feud involving someone who, you know, is no longer with the UFC. But I don't know. I don't know how to frame this. Maybe, Shaheen, maybe I'll just shoot it to you.

I say it's nuanced. Again, it did lead to sort of history being made the way it was kind of, I guess, eventually resolved. But it is one of those views. I don't know how much people remember, you know, every angle of it or how, necessarily how, even how intense it got. So can you, can you, Shih, can you talk about your, the feud that you have chosen for this, this podcast?

Sure, sure. So you presented this question to us. And I will say, I wanted, the first one that popped in mind was the one you ultimately picked. I claimed it. I'll save that. The second one was this one, which is obviously Demetrius Johnson. And we mentioned, I think Jed, you mentioned, like, the only way to really win this is to just escape, to just, like, get away and just go do your own thing.

And you know what, that's what DJ ultimately did. But the way that this played out, like, there are a lot of feuds that we could point to. There are a lot of different weird twists and twerns and all of this that we could point to. Really, only one almost led to the burning down of an entire division purely out of spite. And also, like, a lot of dudes actually losing their job because ultimately that's what happened. Like Brandon Moreno, the dude who is currently the UFC flyweight champion, lost his job because Dana White was upset with Demetrius Johnson. All of these things.

Like a bunch of flyweight lost their job. And a lot of them didn't ever get it back. Yeah, I don't know. The Demetrius Johnson thing stems back to 2017. So anybody who was a fan back then, you'll probably remember this. Ultimately, at that point, Demetrius Johnson was already. the most decorated champion in UFC history, frankly. Like him and he was tied with Anderson Silva at that point for the most consecutive

title offenses. And so this was going into the one fight that would have broken that for him and given him sole ownership of the record, which is 11. And this is the, the relationship with DJ was fraught for a long time. I mean, it was the UFC did not support the fly weights. The UFC rarely put DJ in position to succeed. he was often having to headline really terrible events with again with really non-interesting fights

and just like they were not really pushing this division in a way that they would push other divisions and they were not really pushing DJ in a way that they would push other champions especially champions who were as accomplished as DJ and honestly like the way that we reframe these things is always so interesting in retrospect because in the moment a lot of the conversation was

well DJ is not interesting DJ is not entertaining the fly weights aren't fun and then DJ would go out and just pull off masterclass performances and get exciting finishes and big knockouts of Joe Benavitas and, you know, submit Kioji Horaguchi with a second left in the fight, all these things. Like he was pulling out finishes and doing what he needed to do. It was just he was not getting maybe the support from the fan base and the promotion that he wanted. And so ultimately it comes to 2017 and he's about to have this fight for sole ownership of the record. And the way this plays out, the UFC initially offers him

DJ wanted to fight Sergio Pettis because that was like the biggest name that he hadn't fought in the division at that time. UFC says, nah, we don't want that. We want you to fight 23-year-old Ray Borg who no one's gonna care about. DJ goes back and forth with that for a bit. Finally, he's like, all right, whatever,

I'll just fight Ray Borg, like, let me just get this record. And then it somehow comes to a point where DJ Dillishot at that point in time is not the UFC Bantamweight champion. Cody Garbrand is. During this process, DJ's like, well, you know, I could fight Cody.

Like Cody is openly talking about like, oh, it would be cool to fight DJ. He's like, oh, I do a champion versus champion fight right now. Like, that seems fun. Let's do that. UFC has no interest. And they come back to him and say, no, that's not a fight that would sell. That's not a fight that would be marketed at all. Like, the fans have no interest in that fight.

Flash forward, suddenly T. T.J. about wanting an opportunity against DJ. Again, T. T.J. was not the champion at the time. Dana White and UFC goes all in on T. All in on T. And that's now the fight they suddenly want to make.

They want to rip up this ray. board contract and give this to TJ. And Demetrius sort of at this point is at the end of his rope and he's been jerked around for years and he hasn't gotten paper viewpoints at all at this point in his career. That's a very important point in all of this. He has had 10 title defenses and not one of them did he get paid paper viewpoints whatsoever. And every time he brought it up, it was just simply not a discussion. It was you don't deserve him. No one cares if you're fighting that type of conversation. So DJ essentially, end of his rope. I'm not fighting. in TJ. TJ's not the champion. You just told me a fight against a bantamweight champion or a former

champion would be interesting for these people. I'm fighting Ray Borg. Let's keep this moving in this division. There's a real good chance that TJ's not even going to make weight for this. And then I don't get a chance to get this title defense record. And it just goes back and forth. And ultimately, it all spills out into the public view. DJ cuts an incredible hour long, essentially promo on the MMA hour on MMA fighting with our good pal Ariel Hawani and releases a statement that morning outlining his argument, and it is a 2,000-word statement. No other feud that we're going to talk about today has resulted in a fighter releasing a 2,000-word statement. DJ released his own long form, essentially detailing why he was so

upset with Dana White and the UFC. And they go back and forth, and throughout all of this, it comes out that the UFC was openly threatening him. If you don't fight TJ, we're going to burn down the entire flyweight division, and DJ sort of calls his bluff on it. The whole thing just becomes so silly. Obviously, we know what happens with the Ray Borg fight. That's the fight they go with. DJ gets the greatest submission I've ever seen live ever. Just like one of the signature highlights of his career.

He gets the sole ownership of the record. Next fight, he loses to Suhudo and he's out. He's gone. First, second, he could possibly be gone. He's gone. And the whole thing is just speaks to everything that we're talking about. DJ is literally the number one pound-for-pound fighter in the world at that point. And he's still dealing with this.

And Gene, and how did he leave? That's the historical part I was mentioning. Like, you know, there was sadly no boxing match proposed between DJ and Dana White. But what happened that, like, you know, that we're still talking to this day and it hasn't really happened since? The only trade. The only major trade in UFC history is how all of this orchestrates out to Ben Ascran coming for DJ to one championship. For famously a guy. Who Dana White hated.

relentlessly shat upon. If I believe the correct line was... Andrew 1-1-3 in the UFC. When Flies 1-2 fallously or Ben Ascran, watching Ben-Ascran fight is like watching Flies F, I believe is the quote.

Yes, that was my... That was a quote I referenced earlier, and that was at a... I think it was at the UFC event when they held a UFC event in New York and George St. Pierre was grappling with Hoyce Gracie. And I remember Dana White coming offstage

talking to us about Dana White and he said when the flies or he said yeah he said he's more boring than watching flies do their business yeah but also i think there was a good line there was a line of uh when ambian wants to go to sleep it takes ben ascgrin or something that's what yeah that was also that that's a good line hits this field makes me so sad though because it is like the biggest example one maybe not the biggest many but one of the big examples of the UFC and dana white's promotional shortcomings because if you cannot promote a guy who I think we all agree is one of the five greatest NBA fighters of all time, you suck. You suck. You suck. I understand. I understand. I understand there's always any barriers to it. There's always been people no matter what who are

going to say. These guys look too small to me. I'm not interested in the fight. That's fine. That's going to happen. That's just how society is. I don't. I think that's crazy because we look at boxing. Some of the lighter weight class fighters are some of the biggest stars of all time. For some reason, MMA, that just hasn't happened yet. I still think it could happen someday. It just hasn't. And part of the reason it hasn't is because the UFC has done still made this,

like openly talked about, oh, one of our best players, people just aren't interested in him. Like, that's your job. And then threatening to, oh, it looks, I don't know if the flyway division is going to be around. Like, that's your job to make people want it to be around. And it just,

and also card play, we can get in a card placement, never, you know, never giving them prominent spot. It's not giving DJ pay-per-viewpoints. This sends a certain message to the public, and the message has been received, and frankly, is probably still affects the division today. Sorry, David, go ahead.

No, I'm just going to say, I actually disagree with you a little bit, AK, because I kind of go back to what Jed said about the Al Jermaine Sterling situation. I love Demetri's Johnson. I think he's one of the most talented fighters ever, but I don't put him on my top of the goat list for one reason. And I said, I've said all along, his level of competition was not as good because when he came in, the flyway division was new, and he got stuck fighting Ray Borg and Chris Carrioso and guys who probably had no business really being in there with him. And that was kind of

the unfortunate timing of DJ being in the UFC because now the flyway division is actually really, really good. I disagree a little bit with the notion they didn't promote him, though. They did promote at the beginning. Like, they did this tournament. They made a big deal out of the flyway tournament to crown a champion. They put on the event headline by DJ. DJ. The ultimate fighter season around him is not great promotion. No, no, no, not that tournament. I'm talking about the tournament to crown the first ever champion.

Yeah. So I would argue, well, I think Demetri has absolutely got a raw deal. I would disagree a little bit in terms of like them not promoting him at the beginning. I think they just learned or at some point gave up on promoting him because people just stopped. People stopped caring. People, there was a very clear. indication that fans were not interested in flywates at that time. Now, that has changed. Thankfully, people have come around, but there's still an argument to be made that

Flywitz are still fighting a little bit of an uphill battle, you know, to get respect. And obviously, we see the epic wars between Marino and Figurado has kind of changed the narrative and things like that. And Suhuda becoming champion after Demetrius and kind of building into that T.J. Dillishaw fight, that helped it a little bit. But the reality is there was a time they did promote him and then people just like we don't care about fly weights and there was really no competition for him and so they stopped promoting him and then it became we just DJ became an afterthought and that I would agree that's kind of where it became sad but I would disagree at the beginning they did push well Demetri's and the fly weights at the start and people to not to put the

not to put the blame back on the fans but like at that point there was a clear indication at early on the people just didn't seem to care about the flywates. And unfortunately, Demetrius was the face of that. And so to what she said, they just gave up. Like, they just, like, they promoted, promoted, promoted. They did the Fox Main events with John Dodson. That was a great, great fight. They tried to, they promoted the hell out of that at the beginning.

And then they just gave up. I will say, then they started consistently putting him in places where he was going to fail. Like, there was no way on earth that Demetrius Johnson was going to headline. you know, a pay-per-view against Ali Bagatinoff as the main event with the co-maid being like some some Rory McDonald versus Tyron Woodley fight that people should super care about. I was at that card and people left before the main event. Like people left after. I brought that up.

I made no way I mentioned that. And that was the same thing as I was at the end when they did the Carrioso fight. When DJ fought Carrioso, that was Connor McGregor against Dust of Porier. And that was the third fight on the pay-per-view. That was the main event. like that's the fight people cared about. They put him in awful positions. They wanted him to fail at that point.

They were putting him on a car where he was the main event, but they were like, oh, look, no one cares about the main event. So, yeah, that's where it got to the point where they gave up on Demetrius and then they actively were just like, we're going to put you in the shittiest situation as possible. And so it was like, it was literally like, you know, just a flip, it was awful the way it changed. But again, just to go back.

They did promote him at the beginning. So to give a little bit of credit, did it? I don't even think that's true. A couple of things. I'll say, first of all, his resume is really underrated. Like, I,

I, totally disagree. We need to not litigate that with Damien's nonsense about him fighting shit people. It's a different pod and we've done it a million times. Yeah, Benavita, okay, we are already at 50 minutes and we are halfway through.

Don't go down that road. Mine won't take too long. I assure you mine won't take too long. But I do think his competition is. the longest. Well, because we already did a show on this, and I will, trust me, I will direct people to it. You're trying to redo an argument I've had with Damon five times on ranking shows.

We won't agree on that. And I, Damon, you're right, the tournament thing was cool to try and crown your champion, but, like, I just feel like they could have done more. I just don't believe there's a world, that there's no world where they couldn't have done a better job. I'm not saying they didn't do any job. You're right. Maybe there was some effort put in.

But we're talking about, like, the greatest fighter in the world. you can't find a way to get him over. That's a failing of promotion to me. That to me is a failing of promotion. I don't think they put in any effort genuinely. I fundamentally disagree with Damon on this one. Like it's just they gave him prime spots on Fox cards, if that's what you call promotional effort,

but that's not promotion. That's headlining a fight card. The UFC has two ways to promote fights. It's bad blood, best fighter in the world. They tried with DJ. that is a hard sell for a small person. It's just tough to connect with fans. And DJ didn't never have bad blood with anybody. And so they didn't have any way to take a dynamic, different kind of talent. Damon says they promoted him. He won the flyway title on a card

with John Jones. And after that, he never shared the space with another star. And even John Jones at that time was a star, but he wasn't, you know, this incandescent star that the glow is going to shine on anyone. They didn't. And I don't begrudge them that because I'm sure that they did look at the numbers and we're just like, well, if I was not hitting. But that's just a fundamental problem with them. Their answer to this isn't working, is it let's find a way to make this work? It's F them dudes. Yeah, we give up. We give up. Yeah, we'll move on to something else. And that's a way that a lot of people handle themselves in a lot of different aspects of life. fundamentally not how a fight promoter should work,

particularly when you've got one of the greatest fighters of all time under your banner. Well, that goes back to what you said, Jed. Like I think at some point, when they gave up on Demetrius, which was... It was Allie Bags. They gave up on Allie Bags. They gave him three Fox headliners. We're like, let's see if he can just do a headliner on Fox.

And then they're like, well, now you can run a pay-per-view to say we did it. and you sold 120,000 views, we will never care about you again. And that's, you're talking about the Algebra and Sterling thing where, you know, basically they're,

they're in their business mind right now, they're saying that, you know, we're going to do numbers and we're going to move on whether Algeman Sterling is champion or not, whether Algeman Sterling is here or not. I think that was 100% of the attitude they took with Demetrius.

They just didn't care at that point. They're like, okay, leave. Like, we're going to burn down the whole division. We're going to drop Brandon Moran, Reno and every, like, it was to the point where I don't think they could fill out of top 10 because they had dropped so many fly weights. They couldn't.

Because that's how little they cared at that point. They're just like, we don't care. And they didn't feel like they lost anything. Like, that was the UFC's view at that point. They weren't losing anything. It's a sad, sad state of affairs. But that was their attitude. They were not losing anything getting rid of Demetri's Johnson and getting rid of flywates.

Yeah. Okay, Chad, go ahead. Yes. what are we supposed to be talking about? Well, I was going to bring it back. So I was going to say, Shaheen, like, this is such a sad. That's why I said this feud made me sad. It made me sad.

Happy because it did end in this trade, which kind of launched us into this whole different weird area because Asper came to the UFC and started the Horheem-Mazvedal era and the BNF title and blah, blah. That whole timeline started because of that. Porting the D.J. Two headlining for the BNF title. There's a clear through line from what we're talking about. It's connected to this feud somehow.

And DJ, I think, is how. happy is happy fighting the rest of his career out in once. So it's kind of happy. This made me, this is the happiest feud outcome. No, the ending is happy, but the feud itself is just so.

It's not as entertaining. It wasn't even that long, though. And then it was like, FIT trade. It's like the best feud we could have. Damon's Tito feud was so entertaining. This was not an entertaining feud at all. This thing,

this feud ultimately became the best thing to ever happen to to Demetrius Johnson in his career from a public perception standpoint. because so many people came to Demetrius Johnson's defense and sort of became a DJ fan vis-a-vis this exact situation because it was so clearly ridiculous in the moment and so blatantly unfair in the moment and just so like the whole thing was so absurd that it engendered people to this guy

that the UFC were trying so hard to make people like him and finally they figured out a way but it was this weird roundabout. You know why? Because it had Dana White saying DJ's name not on a DJ Fight Week and not saying he's the best guy in the world, which is not a way to promote no one gives a shit. This is.

If Dana just, free offer, if anyone from the UFC is listening, just get Dana to go on his Instagram or whatever, every Friday. And instead of hocking, whatever the next power slap thing is, she'd be like,

hey, I'm going to spend two minutes talking about this up-and-comer who ticks shit. His name's Jack Della Madelena, and he's got mits, got saucy mitts on him. Look at this highlight of a knockout. This dude's the fucking future. Let's go.

Like that, that's the best promotion they could do. It's just that. You got to get Dana talking about fighters outside of fight week, because otherwise it's just like part of the ongoing swirl of fights. Yeah. And I was, I was a little guilty about at the time,

because when Demetrius was being called the number one pound for pound fighter in the sport, and, you know, going back to my argument with Jed forever about why I didn't put Demetrius there. I was of the argument. I was like, man, I wish he would fight T.J. Because that would prove, like, if he goes to Bantamate, there was a point where it was talking about him going to Bantamate and fighting D.J. and doing the super fight.

That did eventually escalate to that point. And he basically said, I'm not, I'm not doing it. And I was like, man, this is your chance. This is the chance to, like, silence everyone, you know, who, you know, all these kind of things. And then Demetrius put out a statement fairly recently where he talked about, like, he said, yeah, I'll do it. Give me a million dollars.

And they laughed in his face. and he said, well, I'm not going to do it. And I interviewed Demetrius before his last fight with Adriana Marias. And I'll play it publicly. I have no problem doing that. I literally apologize for Demetrius for criticizing him for not taking the fight. I was like, dude, I'm sorry. I was like, I was focused on the fight aspect of like,

this is your chance to prove that you're the number one guy in the world, losing track of the financial side of it. And I was like, you know what? I'm sorry, man. I criticize you unfairly. not that I went like ham on it. I'm just saying like, I was like, dude, I want to see that fight. Like, let's see it and it never happened.

But I was like, you know what? Legitimately, I'm sorry. Like, I was a little critical to you for not doing that fight, not thinking about the other side of it, which was, were you being fairly compensated to go up a weight class and risk yourself against me against the guy like T.J. At that point. And I was like, and he's like, dude, it's totally okay. I get it. But I was like, I had to think about it in that moment. I was like, you know what?

You're absolutely right, DJ. You were 100% in the right. And I was wrong. Damon, you're a bigger man than Dana White. I don't think he's ever apologized to, to Mr. Johnson, anything that has transpired between them. I guarantee,

gentlemen, if we're finished with our thoughts on the... I want to make one more statement here. Literally, one more. One more on this particular fight, but it touches back to Tito as well. Oh, good. Because I think we need to present all sides of the Buffalo here,

and we've done a great job of deriding Dana White. We're good for us. We're freaking killing it. Should be noted that in both of these instances, and in many of these other instances, there's a perspective, maybe not one I share, maybe not one you share. But a credible perspective that Dana White feuds with fighters because those fighters are just afraid to take fights that the public is demanding. DJ just was afraid to fight TJ Dillard Shaw's Damon so eloquently pointed out right there and so Dana's standing up for the fans guys

and I think we need to get that perspective out there because somebody listening to this right now is saying that to themselves Yeah and well you know Jed They haven't turned us off by it's an even better transition That's an even better transition to my dick than I Absolutely last thing on this It's very quick

Two different times in this 2000 word long form DJ released that's his statement to start this whole thing. Two different times he says the word tyrannical in it. And that is just a A plus scrabble word. Like that is just tremendous to be able to put the word tyrannical in your fighter statement twice. All the power to DJ. He's the goat for a reason. You can't be replaying tyrannical.

You got to get a new one. I would love to. Is there any part of you, is there any part of you, Shaheen? I just got to ask this question. Is there any part of you that wishes Tito had written a 2000? word statement. No. No, no, no, no, no, Damon, not written. I would love to hear him just say the word tyrannical.

Yes, publicly, yes. I'd like to see him like. Just say the word tyrannical. There's no, he would undescially, and questionably say Tyrannosaurus instead. There is no doubt in my mind. I'm here with Mareldo Barbello. He's the best fighter of the night. Dana's a Tyrannosaurus.

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19 plus Ontario only. Please play responsibly. Concerned by your gambling or that if someone close, you, call 1-8665330 or visit comixonterio.ca. Unwrap holiday magic at Holt Renfrew with gifts that say I know you. from festive and cozy fashion to lux beauty and fragrance sets. Our special selection has something for every style and price point. Visit our Holtz holiday shop and store or online at Holtrenfrew.com. Jed, you said something there that really caught my ear about fighters. You know, one of the reasons that they get into these beasts of Dana White is because there's this.

They're afraid. They're afraid. Dana is defending fans. They're afraid. And he's defending them. He's doing it for the fans. and some would argue maybe that's why he took the tact he did

regarding my choice of a few. We've kind of already given it away. I did pick John Jones specifically, they butted heads a few times, specifically the cancellation of UFC 151 era. Again, we talk about Tito being a crazy story. This is another one. I think this was a little bit before Twitter blew up

because of this happened now. Holy crap. Listen, we've seen John Jones stories blow up, so this would just be another one. The first event ever canceled. John Jones was supposed to fight Dan Henderson. Very cool fight on paper. He was going to add another legend.

Dan Henderson was unable to make the event. He had to withdraw due to injury. And on eight days notice, good old Chal Snowan says, I'm going to step in, fresh off of a loss to Anderson Silva, I believe. So I'm going to step in. I'm going to move up to 205 and fight John Jones. Let's save this event. And John Jones and his team are like, no, no.

The card is so weak that the UFC cannot in good conscience put on. They cancel the pay-per-view. This was September 1st, 2012. They were supposed to be a pay-per-view in Las Vegas. It did not happen. Guys, there is no UFC 151. For anyone who's going back to the archives, what happened? You know, oh, you're going through a whole dam on it.

You can go listen. Yes, Jed, that's right. We did already do a damn. That was our first ever, and only so far, I think. Damn, that was crazy episode of Dam. Is that right? Correct. I mean, we may have more, but yeah.

You guys can find that on the podcast network. We did a whole UFC 131 thing. Jed, you spoke to Greg Jackson. This was kind of the 10-year anniversary. This was last year of UFC won't-kill ones. The original sport, well, again, I want to get to that. This original sport killer. Again, this is, listen, this was Dana White, as you said, in his capacity, kind of,

I'm standing up for the fans. I'm standing up for the company. I'm standing up for the fighters. He brought the fighters in. We'll mention the insane press release because, really, we never want to pass up in our an opportunity to read some of the lines from this press release. Completely unbelievable that this happened. But yes, if you guys, of course, people can always listen to the episode.

But we can sort of look back on this feud now with, when we had done that episode, John Jones was sort of still on the shelf, I think, had not, you know, he was still making that endless transition to heavyweight. But early this year, came back, great performance against Cidal Gone, UFC Gold around his waist again. Dana White loves him. He's the baddest man on the planet. How do I make, how do I get Tyson Fury into the UFC, get John Jones a big money fight?

So they're on the same page now. So, you know, anyone, you know, kind of just tuning in now is like, ah, John Jones and Dana White are cool. But my God, the talk around the canceled UFC 151, you would have thought if he could have fired John Jones, he would have, definitely if he could have separated John Jones from then coach Greg Jackson Jackson. He would have absolutely done it. Hated the Greg Jackson camp. hated John Jones' decision-making.

Just not a fan of John Jones in general at the time. John at the time was in his, this would have been his fourth, I want to say his fourth tell defense if he had gone through within Fott-Henderson or Sonan. This was 50, so he was only 20. Am I doing it? 22, I think. I'm going to do my math. I'm crazy, right?

Anyway, he was in his early 20s. He was in his early 20s. He was still doing the good Christian boy routine. He wasn't like a household name, but he was clearly. almost like a godsend to the UFC as far as marketable stars go. Just a prime-looking athlete, dominant fighter, had knocked off well-known names, legends of the sport already, again, before the age of 25.

I think he had the Nike sponsorship by then, Gator, things like he had been getting sponsorships that USC fighters could only dream of. And then this thing happens. And Dana White turns on him so fast, I guess we have to. I guess we can look at some of the excerpts from here. Uh, I'm going to, Jed, I'm going to go to your article.

I think you picked out some of the best parts. I'll read the press release, this is your writing, Jed, excoriated Jones and Jackson, saying their decision stole from fighters on the undercard. And it dubbed UFC 151, the event John Jones and Greg Jackson murdered. They murdered the event. That's a legal definition, too. They didn't kill it. They murdered it.

This was a press release. There was malice in a heart when they ended that event's life. The word disgusted is in there. And this was right at the end I think of the statement is, John Jones is a guy a lot of fans don't like. And I don't think this is going to make him any more popular. Just out and out saying, one of his dominant champions, one of his young stars at the time, is like,

I don't think people like him. I mean, I don't think people like him. Again, we kind of talked about this before. It just unprecedented event had never been canceled before. I don't want to say Danae had never thrown a fighter under the bus like this. As we said, he had fused before. The Tito T's feud was crazy in terms of how much animosity there was there. But to, again, to take one of his rising stars and blame him and his team so blatantly for,

I'll say at the time, I was pretty much on John Jones's side. I thought the card could have been stronger and they could have kept together. The other main card. been stronger. The card definitely could have been stronger. It was one of the worst cards of all time. The other main card fights, Jake Ellenberger, Jeharon, Dennis Siever, Eddie Yagan, Dennis Holman, Tiago Tavares, and John Lineker, and Yasuhiro, Ushutani.

So not exactly a lot of star power there. Good fighters, a lot of good fighters, but clearly needed this fight. But no, listen, Dana White put all the blame on John Jones. Why didn't he want to fight? And Greg Jackson. Yeah, and Greg Jackson. Chels Sonan coming off a loss, hadn't even fought at 205 in the UFC. Hey, why shouldn't John Jones fight him, right?

Come on, John Jones. What's your problem? This is a worthy challenger. So, I don't know, guys. Pure chaos. To speak to the constant love-hate relationship these two guys have had, because it always goes in cycles with these two guys. Who headline UFC 152?

Was it just, oh, Jones and Belfort? It was John Jones and one of it later, not even a month later, he's back headlining an event after he's a sport killer. And again, against a fighter who was competing at 185 before. Yeah, like, that's how much was a sport killer he was, is he headlined the very next pay-per-view. Like, that's the weird love-hate relationship, Dana and John Jones have had this entire time.

Like, they hate each other. And, like, go back to the last three years, John was off. He could not have, he condemned John so many times when he was asking for Deonté, wilder money. And then now he's the greatest thing ever, and he would tap out Francis Ingano in in 45 seconds. Yeah, that's why this one's a bit weirder than the two we've mentioned previously, because it's somewhat of an ongoing feud. I personally don't believe that this love will last that long. I don't know. Maybe if the steepe John Jones fight falls through somehow and it's Jones's fault, we'll see Dana turn him again. I don't think this feud is over. That's the only

reason, like, I might have been hesitant to bring up 151 is, like, I feel like we're in progress with John Jones. I know he's going to retire soon. I don't know how Dana White's going to feel about that. If he retires with the title, it's just, and listen, this isn't even getting to all the, the shooting himself in the foot that John Jones has done since, which failed. This again, this was before the failed drug test, before the hit and run, before the recent domestic violence arrest.

There's so much to unpack here again. I don't want to go over it again. We've done it on shows before. you mentioned, incredibly intense feud. But like Damon said, kind of as intense as it was, kind of just got resolved. And like, I don't know. They're just, they're just ebbs and flows with them. No, their relationship is not like mended forever.

But that particular dispute is just, like, you just don't bring it up anymore. Like they, like neither John Jones brings it up, neither. The past is for cowards, AK. You live in the past, you die, your past. But again, sport killer, disgusted, murder. Do you remember playing two truths and a lie quotes from that press release? Yes. It was the best.

I will just say, you guys, of course, I want to let you guys comments on it, but I will say, feel free to go back. We did, I think we almost did like two hours on this the first time we talked about it. It was like 90 minutes. It was a good stretch. Damn, that was crazy. UFC 151, guys, it's on the podcast network. and jazz interview, of course, with Greg Jackson, also, M8Fighting.com. Great website.

But guys, I'll open the floor, please, if anyone just wants to mention it before we get to our last, our last picture. Can I just throw out one more quote from that thing? I had to throw out my favorite. Hold on, something that's never happened in UFC history, a guy who's a world champion and considered one of the pound-for-pound best guys turns down a fight. That was Dana. They're right there.

There's your old. He turned down a fight. He ducked shells on an eight-day-notice. That was one of my all-time. I was reading my article from back then. And I was just like, good Lord, some of these quotes, man, Chale was pumped. He was so excited for this fight. I mean, it's just the quotes of this thing are hilarious.

I love, I have to say, I love that framing of it always because you even go back to DJ. Like, there was a lot of like, we'll talk from Dana of like, you're taking this opportunity away from T.J. Saying that to DJ of like, why would Demetri's Johnson care about what T.J. Dillishaw cares about? And same thing with like, Chale was so excited for this. opportunity, John. It's like, dude, what are we talking about? My only thing on this, because I will say, go back and listen to the damn that was crazy episode because we went so deep into this.

And it was a great time. I really enjoyed that episode. This to me is the most number, like, Tito is probably the number one feud because it is the feud to begin all feuds. This to me is the number one feud just in regards of like, this is the most emblematic of what being a great fighter in the UFC is all about. when it comes to this type of dynamic with Dana White. Because as we said, the ebbs and flows, the chapters.

You could write a whole, very lengthy Lord of the Rings length book on the relationship between Dana White and John Jones over the years and just the weird nuances of all of it. Just utterly ridiculous. The whole thing was obscene in the moment. And the fact I will never, ever, ever, ever get over Dana White just being so aghast at the idea that John Jones, his goat, his greatest fighter of all time,

one of the best talents we've ever seen, how dare he want money that, like, what, the third best heavyweight boxer in the world gets? Can I ask one question? Can I ask one question? Because we've all been around for a while. He went harder on John Jones

not fighting Chelsan than arguably anybody ever. Like the verbiage he used in that press release and conference call afterwards was conference goal. Like, unbelievable. But I'm asking us, like, AK brought it up, and yeah, absolutely good point. John Jones has been his own worst enemy in his career. We all know that.

Like, that's well documented. I don't think Dana White has ever said anything nearly as venomous about John Jones and all the screw ups he's had from UFC 200 when he dropped out due to a positive drug test and they had to scramble to make a new main event to the hit and run, all the other things that John has done. And again, John's done some really stupid things in his career. I think Dana got nearly as mad at him for those things that were in John's, that were actually John's fault than he did with this when he just didn't take a final fake day's notice. Like that to me is the absolute definition of Dana White's insanity. The times when he could have

gotten just off the cuff insane, angry at John actually blowing something like they hit run or the UFC 200 thing. He never went nearly as hard at John Jones during those situations. Unless I'm forgetting and I was at the press conference when UFC 200 got canceled when that old thing happened. I don't ever remember him flipping out at any

of those situations like he did at UFC 150. He was much more disappointed. He was just like, well, that's a shame. This cost them more money, I guess, than any of the other, anything else John Jones did. I don't know. It's also just much more symbolic. When you cancel an event,

I'm not here to defend Dana White in this regard, but there is a big difference to doing that the first time of saying, hey, outside of the money of like, hey, this event is no longer going to happen. That's aligned across. And then once that's done, things probably go a little easier. But that first one is going to take it in the teeth. To Daman's point, even the domestic violence thing that happened in Las Vegas, I believe the strongest, like, things that Dana said were like, oh, this guy just needs to stay out of Vegas or something.

And also, like, he has demons. You know, well, listen, he has demons. Like, it was, he didn't, it was almost sympathetic or at least pointing the finger at something else besides just saying, you know, this guy's a bad dude. And, you know, this, like his actions. No, I don't. Well, and, you know, listen, we found out sometime later, maybe we know why. But it's true. Dan, you bring up a really good point.

And frankly, we've never. seen such a I don't know every UFC press release out the top of my head but I don't know if they've ever released anything remotely resembling a press release like this to address anything that happened. You know the best part

of it all? This is the only thing I have to say on this fight and we can move on. Sure. Still up on UFC.com. You can go see it. Oh yeah. Archive, proudly. Still there. Proudly. Archived. Regret nothing. They regret. No. No.

Nothing. And they should. This is beautifully written. This is beautifully written. This is poetry. I would love for someone to do a sit down with John, Greg, and Dana, and just read them this press release line by line and see their reactions now and however many years later, 10, 11 years later, and just watch that as a piece of content because that would be fascinating.

Actually, can we have Chal Sun? Can we have Chal Son and read the press release? I think that would make it even better. Chale reading the press release. Dan Henderson and Chelson allegedly said, like, their comments right at the bottom of the press release. I don't think this is them. I'll read it very quickly.

I mean, I would totally buy Chale's comment. I don't know. Dan Henderson said, hold on, Dan Anderson said, there's the first time a champion wins stuff and fight. I was pretty shocked. It's not like he's injured. Unbelievable, he wouldn't take that. The show must go on attitude.

If there's any way, I could have gone. And anyway, I thought I could have given myself a chance to compete. I would have done that. Maybe it sounds like Dan Henderson. I don't know. No, it does not. Sonan. Sonan, I was shocked that he refused to fight me.

I had already gone to the gym to train. He had a chance to prove himself champion an ultimate fighter, and he didn't take that chance. That's kind of chaly. I think Chale would have a little more flourish than that. That is a PR, that is a PR Dan Henderson and a PR Chels on him where they said, hey, we're going to throw a couple of quotes in there at the end, okay? And Dan and Chal said, sure. And that's what, that does not.

I've interviewed Dan Henderson and. Chails on enough times to know that's not either one of them. I didn't buy it. I didn't buy it. Okay, let us move on. Let us move on. Again, people, Mniflein.com, if you want to learn more, UFC 1-D1 cancellation, crazy stuff. Our last one, I want to say, first of all, Tito Ortiz is in the Hall of Fame.

Demetius Johnson, I still think they'll induct him someday. Yeah, it's not really bad blood between them. It's just kind of like he fights for someone else right now. We have no relationship with him, right? When that's over, I think they'll put him in the Hall of Fame. John Jones, I think, will definitely make the Hall of Fame, barring any more bizarre and horrible arrests that he's involved in. And even then, that might not stop it. This last name is also in the Hall of Fame.

So, like Tito is already in there, actually one of the first inductees. And this feud is kind of, I feel like this feud's going to be for life. This one's technically over. Like, these parties are so far apart from one another. That's the worst one I stand by this decision to take it. These parties are so far apart from one another now that I'd be surprised. if they ever really make commentary about each other again. Though your subject, Jed, did talk about the Francis and Ghana

situation, which I'm sure Dana White loved. But these guys don't like each other. And for a guy who did an enormous amount of stuff for the company and was once one of Dana White's most respected, like, beloved fighters, it got real nasty, I think still is to this day. But please go ahead and let us know what you're talking about, Jed. So a fun segue from John Jones. when you say, I don't know that the U.S.

ever put out a press release, and this isn't necessarily a press release, but you can find an archive version on the UFC website of Dana White and Lorenzo Fertita, getting the Fertitas involved, as they issued a, as they held a press conference, just a couple of days after Randy Gattor left the UFC and started what I think probably is the most acrimonious of Dana White's future. So if you don't have any concept of what's going on here in like 07, Randy just is like, I'm out. Peace.

I'm done with the UFC. I'm trying to fight Fador. They're paying Chuck Ledele more money than me. The numbers I'm hearing that they're trying to entice Fador to come is like triple what I'm making. I'm out. I know that I have two contracted fights left, but I just have to wait it out and then I'll be free. And so you talk about the acrimonious things that, you know, the statements Dana's made. They ain't sued Demetrius Johnson.

The UFC didn't sue Ortiz. The UFC didn't not allow the man to corner his son five years after the dispute. In 2012, Randy Couture was not allowed to corner Ryan Couture. in the UFC because of the hate that is in the hearts of these people. A little petty. It's a little petty. Yeah. A little petty.

A little petty. It's so petty. And that's why Randy, I think, just is the biggest fight because it's still going on to this day. And outside of somebody like Frank Shamrock, like, there's nobody who's going to hold on to this on both sides the way they do. Yes, Randy got inducted into the UFC Hall of Fame. but after his dispute, he ends up in like a year-long legal battle where he spends a half million dollars of his own money, gets countersued by the promotion, loses, and then just comes back with his tail between his legs,

because he failed. And look, he absolutely failed. I will say, to his credit, there's an argument that Randy's fighting for his rights in this way led ultimately directly to, to Francis and Ghanu having a contract structured where he can fight out his contract and exit. But at the end of all of this, Randy got into a fist fight with the UFC legal team and got just whooped up on,

came back, fought in the UFC, continued to fight there for a while before retiring, but after he left, he's been gone. And this is the one that to me is the most long. long term, right? Because outside of just the physical length of time, Demetrius Johnson, the die isn't cast, anything could happen. I guess with John Jones, there's some of that too. But Randy had been such a big part of the promotion outside of just fighting. He is one of their most decorated champions of all time, the first two-division champion, the first five-time champion, and maybe the only guy

who's ever going to be a five-time champion in the same way, and had been taken. in such a part of the analysis. Like he was on the booth. He's doing the commentary work. And all of that, like, he could be doing that today. If the UFC had had a better relationship with him. He could be

Daniel Cormier. Hey, it's the Hall of Famer, the Natural, Captain America, Randy Couture on the call with John Anick and Joe Rogan. And all of that fell apart as well to the point where the dude can't corner his son. Like,

that is the most insane shit you've ever heard of outside of Dana boxing Tito imagine the level of petty that requires it's really unbelievable the broadcasting thing is is actually i don't even thought about it you mentioned it because i think about other sports that do such an important part of like their broadcast is usually having you know some sort of legend around or at least being having the option to bring a legend around sure but they don't have anybody that has that much The historical cachet. Yeah. You cannot write the history of the rise of the UFC without Randy Kutour.

You can't. You can't. And yet, because of how much bad blood there is, he can only be mentioned when absolutely necessary, you know? This would be like if the NBA, like, if they had a feud with like Dr. Jay or something, and this didn't talk. We don't invite Dr. J on the shows. We don't talk about Dr. J.

Like that's kind of how much of his stature, I would say, Randy Couture has in the UFC. And in my mind, I'm just thinking, like, if the NBA did that, it would be insane. It'd be completely, you just, people wouldn't accept it. But that's where we are now with Randy. That's where we are with Randy Couture. And people accepted it a long time ago. And we just kind of accept that's the way it's always going to be. Plus, you got to remember that Randy did Dana White a solid in shutting up James Tony.

So really, when you factor in that Randy was always a company guy in that regard. It's the most insane. Don't forget. Don't forget. Don't forget, Randy also spanked Tito in a literal. fight, which was 100% put him in the good grace, because he had literally took Tito down, beat him up at one point, literally spanked him during their fight. And you know, Dana, one of that.

Yeah. Yeah. Two things real quick about this. One, I will counter real quick to you, Jed. There was one other guy. I know this because one of the only times Dana White has ever personally called me was when I did an article with Ken Shamrock saying he was suing the UFC, and Dana called me on my cell and flipped out, I mean, not at me at Ken Shamrock, sued and beat Ken Sharrock

in court, made Ken Sharrock pay them and pay their court fees as well. Was that Ken saying he invented the ultimate fighter? Was that what that food was? No, that was, that was, that was, that was, that was, that was, that was, that was, that was he invented tough, which is awesome. Yeah, there was, I can't remember the exact why the lawsuit happened, but yeah, he lost. Ken Sharrock lost the lawsuit, but that was another time someone sued and Dana sued and Dana won.

Um, the other thing, the little inside baseball here, years ago, back in the, way back in the day, the MMA media, the internet media, had been banned from going from being credentialed to UFSA. I attended a lot of UFC events where I sat in the crowd and then went to the fighter hotel to do interviews, including in Columbus, Ohio, where I currently reside. When Randy Couture beat Tim Sylvia to become heavyweight champion, I was in the upper deck of the crowd because we couldn't get credentialed. And then after the fight, I go back to the hotel and I'm literally standing there with Randy

and his wife and a UFC title interviewing him in the middle of the Renaissance Hotel here in Columbus, Ohio, because we couldn't get credentialed. Randy Couture raising all these issues and saying he was filing, he was going to file a lawsuit, and here's his pay and all those kinds of stuff. When Dana and them decided to do the press conference to counter Randy's claims, that is the moment that the internet MMMA media got credentialed again to the UFC because they needed coverage and they wanted everyone to know about this. Well, it's a press coverage. They needed people.

And it wasn't around a fight. It was just in the middle of a day in Las Vegas. It wasn't like there was an event. There was nothing happening. They needed people to come cover this. And that was the foot in the door that allowed the MMA media to get credentialed to UFC events again. Was Randy Couture basically going off on the UFC with Mark Cuban involved?

You forgot to mention the Mark Cuban factor, HDNet. getting involved in the negotiations with Fador. And Dana and the UFC needed everyone to cover it. So that was basically the event that got everybody at that point back in credentialed to UFC events. Damn, that is wild. How is well like the threads that come out of this again, very famous feud. And like the Tito one, like one that I don't want the history of it to be lost, you know, which again was one of the reasons why I thought it was important that we kind of do this show now

because it is, and we'll get to some honorable mentions in a second, but it is getting to the point where Dana White has had so many feuds that they kind of start to blend together. We kind of start to say, ah, it's just Dana being Dana, is just what he does. But a lot, I pretty much, I think all the fuse we brought up today, when you see the effect, like these feuds aren't just, for lack of a better word, like clickbait, you know, generating headlines. They have real repercussions on guys' careers and the UFC itself. They affect whole divisions, as Shaheen mentioned, with like Demetrius Johnson.

And then fighter pay, a discussion to this day. Tito and Randy, both both involved in that. And then the handling of superstars, you know, DJ and John Jones, two of the greatest fighters of all time, completely thrown under the wheels of the bus and driven over and over and over again, over and over again. No one is safe. No one is safe from, you know, and any other thoughts, guys, on Randy Couture before we put a little boat, I'll get to our honorable mentions and put a bow on this.

I mean, it's, I think we've covered it all, but it's just what we've said already that Randy had already done them so many different solids and just generally throughout his career did them so many different solids that to go to where, to end up in a point where Jed said that you're just not even going to let him quarter his son. Like this is the dude who ended Tim Sylvia. Like you, you understand how badly the MMA fan base wanted Tim Sylvia's heavyweight championship reign to end. It was the one of the Worst experiences ever as an MMA fan to have it. And Joseph Moussin, baby. These last few Tim Sylvia title defenses were some of the worst fights that have ever been put on in the history of this stupid sport. And Randy Gator came in here and ended it. Same with Tito Ortiz. He ended the Tito Ortiz championship reign. He did so many solids for these guys.

So many. He was Captain America. He was the guy they would trot out on the news shows. There was just not a fighter who had more goodwill in the sport. He was the one. would put out there as the public face to talk about why MMA is okay and why it's not this cock, human cock fighting. And then, no, bro, you can't cover.

Even his rivalry with his rivalry with Chuck was like one of the greatest rivalries. They built the first season of the ultimate fighter around Randy and Chuck. Yep. And then let's not forget. And then Randy losing to Brock Lesnar, you could argue, was what kind of catapulted Brock. I mean, Brock was already a star. We know that just because of WWE, but that.

catapulted him into legitimacy in a lot of ways. Like, yes, he beat Heath Haring. And Heath Haring is a good fighter. We all remember Heath Haring. But going out there, beating Randy Couture to become heavyweight champion was like, wow, Brock Lesnar is legitimate. Like, this guy is the real deal. Randy was a part of so many huge moments in UFC history.

And then to be like, no, bro, you can't corner your son because we don't like you now. Think about that. Think about how petty that is. Honestly, I respect that petty. that is I aspire to that and honestly again even just the erasure like I just feel like they just don't mention him

unless they have to on broadcast which sounds insane because again he's been part of like you guys have said it's a part of so many I'm so glad you brought that I kind of forgot about the Ryan Cotor thing thank you for doing that I forgot about it's so nasty I wanted to I wish I can't remember it happened so far after because that was in like

2013 or something like it was so long after the dispute should be over? It's like, no, never. All right, I got to get to our honorable mentions here. Maybe dishonorable mentions, however people want to look at it. We forgot a trio, a trio of women who have all had their, their beefs with the boss. Chris Cyborg, probably first and foremost, again, to this day, if you ask Chris Cyborg about Dana White, she does not have nice thing.

Her issue is the problem with her being selected for one of the top four is a lot of her issues or pre her being a UFC champion. Yeah, sure. I will say, though, I don't want to get to that ugly. I will say the clip of Dana White, infamous at this point, saying that Chris Seabor looked like Van der Leesova in heels

and he does like this little Frankenstein walk, one of the worst things that Dana White has, like, produced. And there's a long list. But that is disgusting. Like that's, I don't want to talk about that one because it's ugly to the point where I don't want to shine a light on it. Like, that's how bad that one is. Like, some of the comments that were made, like, they're just uncomfortable.

Like, to the point of like- Cut this one, because we need to cut 30 minutes off this thing. I remember, I remember when I had the chance to ask cyber a question. I think this was an Edmonton, I want to say. And then just asking her about the treatment from the company. And she actually, like, started crying. Like, she actually got super emotional about how bad their relationship with Dana White and the UFC, I guess, had caught by that stage.

This was after the Felicia Spencer, I want to say, fight. Anyway, it was so sad. Nico Montanio, speaking of former champions, yes, people, Nika Montanio was a UFC champion, and yes, she had her own little sort of public tiff with Dana White. Dana White, not the biggest Nico Montano fan or supporter. I see Dana White probably in the right. I didn't say it wasn't.

I didn't say it wasn't. Amanda Nunes shouldn't have gotten that nasal surgery. Come on, you never got a headline of pay-per-view again. Francis Inganu, of course, but just happened. And kind of not over. He's not in the O.C. anymore, but kind of not over. It's not over even a little bit.

Yes. It shouldn't even post over. When Ingano gets, when if Ingano actually gets to fight a boxing match and loses, it will definitely not be over because that will 100% come up again. Another gentleman who has cut all ties with the UFC and should be in the O.C. Hall of Fame probably will not be one Mr. Frank Shamrock. I'm going alphabetically here, by the way. Anderson Silva.

Anderson was my choice if I didn't pick Randy. It was not happy with some of his performance as Jed. No, he's not. Through the man under the bus repeatedly, they have recently picked up friction again. Just the quotes after the UFC 112 were just in. Should be ashamed of himself. The Damien Maier. He wasn't mad.

He was just disappointed. Oh, no, he was mad. He was big mad. GSP, what were we said? What happened with GSP? It just, I guess, in general, over. I mean, after he won the middleweight title, it got pretty contentious there. Oh, even after the Johnny Hendricks lost with the retirement, right? He was. I mean, there was a whole drug testing thing before for the Johnny Hendricks fight. And there was a lot of like GSP wanting to do other things. They stopped him from fighting, from boxing.

That post-fight presser after the Hendricks thing where GSP is like, I won't say he's retiring, but he was. and Dan is like, no, you're fighting again. You can't do that. Also, though, if you remember that press conference, Dana White was going off about GSP for something, I forget. And he says, GSP's not coming. GSP is in the hospital. And then, like, two minutes later, while Dana's ranting,

GSP walks it. And it was just... So bizarre. And then the last name on... Like, I'm sure we're released about... I'm like a GESP charity box Oscar de La Hoya either. The last name one here, a man's name who has come up during the Al Javain story discussion. Another guy who was a pretty respectable active UFC champion, who for some reason just kept rubbing Dana White and the fans the wrong way.

Of course, the chosen one, Taran Woodley. So that's just a brief list of Arnold mentions. There have been fused with other, like, you know, little minor tips with other champions we might have forgotten. Certainly fighters who weren't champions, I mean, that's an entire list. other promoters. That's a whole other show we got to do. But for now, guys, yes. I think that's a pretty good overlook of how the most powerful man in MMA has, you know, gotten into it with the most powerful fighters in his business. It's pretty crazy. And Ken Shamrock, I mentioned Ken Shamrock. I just looked up my article with that, with that

interview with Dana and good Lord, from 2006, I believe it was when he went off on Ken Shamrock. So they got into a lawsuit and he made Ken pay him. 2007, excuse me. And he made Ken pay him the $175,000 in lawyer fees. Yeah, so that's another one just to throw on lawsuits and ugliness. And that was after Ken was out of the UFC. It's an endless list. It's an endless list.

You could throw Stepe Meotich on there. There's a lot of stuff behind the scenes that have never come out with Steepai that were just really intense and that got really, really heated for a while. This is just, it's an endless list. And to be fair, and just before we get out of here, I just want to say this. again, in no way, shape, or form my defending, there are rare instances, as Jed brought up, there are rare instances when Dana has been right,

just to throw it out there, there have been instances where Dana has gotten into a few or said of things where he's not wrong. So just to throw it out there, you know, there have been moments. Not all of them, I'm just saying there have been fleeting moments where Dana was right, just by and large, it's just ugly for the sake of being guilty.

Listen, I started this podcast with a question, not a statement. This is not a, let's slam Dana White for these views. We all agree he can do a better job promoting. Okay, this is no quite, we always say he never really, he doesn't really do promotion. That's not his thing. But, again, if you guys can listen to our takes on it, you guys can go back and read about these stories. And all these feuds, again, it's not so simple. It's definitely not as simple as Dana White was wrong and the fighter was right or vice versa.

There's a lot of nuance to it. A lot of nuance to some of these feuds, some of them not so much. Some of them ended into the people almost boxing each other. But for the most part, there's nuance and there's things we can. learn. I hope so anyway, guys, because that's why we do these shows. Again, not to slam anyone, not to rewrite history, but to sort of take a look at it, to reframe it, and again, to compare it to the news that's going on now, because Dana White still getting into the fighters, Al Jameenstirley, Franz Sanghanu. Again, John Jones, not that long ago, even though they're, even though

they're buddies now. So, uh, thank you, everyone for joining us on this episode of, I don't know, round table discussion of Dana White's nastiest, ugliest, most unfortunate views, whatever you want to call it. Guys, send us in your suggestions, your recommendations, what fights, what, what feuds you remember, what you thought were the nastiest. We love to hear that stuff. But for now, we are signing off. And I'll just say to everyone, please people, don't have fused in your own life. Just hugs and handshakes all around. Thanks guys. Thanks guys for joining us.