MMA Fighting - Steven Marrocco Details Road To Releasing Important Spencer Fisher Article, Talks Dana White's Reaction

Episode Date: January 14, 2021

MMA Fighting Deputy Editor Steven Marrocco speaks with Mike Heck to discuss the incredibly important piece of journalism released earlier this week about former UFC fighter Spencer Fisher, gives some behind the scenes insight in putting it all together, Dana White's reaction to the article, and more. Subscribe: http://goo.gl/dYpsgH Check out our full video catalog: http://goo.gl/u8VvLi Visit our playlists: http://goo.gl/eFhsvM Like MMAF on Facebook: http://goo.gl/uhdg7Z Follow on Twitter: http://goo.gl/nOATUI Read More: http://www.mmafighting.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network. All right. So you may have seen earlier this week, one of the most important pieces of MMA journalism dropped on the interweb. It had to do with Spencer Fisher, a former UFC fighter. It's called The Cost of Being the King. And you've probably seen it all over the place if you follow anyone with any sort of relevance to MMA space. Because everyone's been talking about this article. And personally, I've been wondering where Spencer Fisher has been these last several years.

who's one of my favorite fighters before I got into this game. And this man, the deputy editor for MMAFighting.com, proud to call him a colleague, Stephen Morocco, told this unbelievable, kind of heartbreaking. Just so many different emotions came into this story. So I wanted to bring him on because I have a million questions to ask him since it's released. But Stephen, how are you, man? Congratulations on the drop. I have a million things to ask you, like I said.

But first thing I want to ask you is now that it's out there for everybody to see, the video, everything, how does it all feel now that it is out there for the public to take a look at? That's a huge relief. It just took a lot of time and a lot of effort at all stages of the game, from the reporting of it, from convincing Spencer to do the story, to getting a lot of different assets together, making sure we didn't get sued. You know, there was just so many different things that went into this, so many different people that had a hand in it and really helped, admittedly, like helped elevate it from just your standard story to something I think that's a little bit more worthwhile.

So when did this all begin? Like, when did Spencer kind of get on your radar as a, I mean, it obviously engulfed into this massive thing that we've got to see this week, but when did this idea sort of come into your head to begin the process of putting this all together? Well, I mean, I've been covering this sport since 2006. And Spencer was just one of those guys. Spencer was a – he wasn't even a promising veteran. He was in the mix for a title shot at a couple different points.

He was one of those guys, his trilogy with Stout. You know, like Dana said, they're classics. He was always known as like a reliably action-packed kind of guy. He always left it out there. I wasn't close to him personally, but I was close with his manager, Monty Cox, who at the time was one of the guys as far as management. And so I would talk to Moni on a regular basis,

and Moni was the first person to alert me to what was happening. And I think Moni's idea was basically, maybe if we can get the public involved in this, that we can actually get Spencer cleared. I think that was his intention for bringing it to me and a number of reporters, actually. But talking to Spencer, he did not want it out there. He still wanted to fight,

and he figured that anything that was contrary to that aim or anything that might upset the UFC would keep him from fighting. So that's why it took so long to tell this story. Do you remember when it kind of got to that point where you turned the corner with this whole thing with Spencer? Like, obviously there's years, probably years before we got to this point. But do you remember that moment? Not really.

I mean, I just remember earlier this year. It was like a yearly check-in. It's like something I, it's like on my to-do list every couple months. I check in on Spencer. That's just what I did. It became kind of like not a game, person. say, but it's just like, he told me no so many times. His wife told me no that it was just kind of a fun game.

I would call them, and I would just, you know, make small talk, basically. How you doing? What's going on? And invariably, we'd end up talking about what was really going on. And, you know, he'd tell me what was the latest development or whatever. And then he'd end everything by saying, this is all off the record. So like he said in the video, the reason why this story came out is because he had given up, essentially. He figured that help wasn't on the way, help wasn't going to come from Dana or the UFC.

So there was literally nothing to lose. That's the reason why this story came out. If he had still been paid, if he was still under that PR deal, this story never would have come out. So wild to think about. And you went and visited him and you got to see him face to face. And we got to see it in the video. We got to get a different glimpse of the story by actually hearing him speak and and seeing what that was like just in the video.

And a lot of people just by seeing that were like, man, like this dude's in kind of rough shape. And they felt really badly for the man. What was that like for you sitting in the same room with him and having those conversations? Intensely upsetting. upsetting to the point where I had a hard time staying on track myself as far as a journalist because I watched him have his symptoms. You know, you think about these things in the abstract a lot. And if you follow the NFL, I mean, everybody knows what CTE is right now.

It's a national issue. It's been around for a while. People joke about it. People, you know, use as an insult, you know, to say, oh, you've just got CTE or whatever, you know, people like to hurl it around but when you actually see it in front of you when you actually see symptoms of a neurological disorder it's upsetting and it's upsetting for a guy like me who's been covering the beat of this sport for a long time this is a machine the ufc is a machine it's a sausage grinder and it's like we as beat reporters we follow these guys you know uh like it like a horse race

and they come in, they do their thing, they create their impact, and then they disappear. And for the most part, you know, we never find out what happens to them. And so this was something that I felt that I had to, I just wanted to tell the story. You know, I just, I felt it was a fascinating story. I felt he wanted to tell the story, but he couldn't because of the obligations that he felt.

felt and the repercussions that he feared. But mostly, another big factor in this is that he kept saying this, I don't want to be that guy. I don't want to be that guy. And I hear that a lot. I hear that a lot from former fighters when it comes to talking about the negative side of this sport or other things that are not part of the company line. I don't want to be that got.

There's this toughness that they have. Nobody wants to admit that things are less than perfect. And this isn't, you know, exclusive to fighters, but it's intensified with fighters because these are literally the alpha males of the world. Like they could kick anybody's ass. And there is some magical thinking that comes along with that. And that has its own consequences as far as how, things get communicated, how things change, and how things, yeah, I mean, it's just, it's just something

that I felt I had to do. But, you know, I'm glad he finally talked to me. How did his wife feel about everything once he had made the decision? I'm sure they, they had this conversation between them and came to this decision together to get the story out there. But how does she react to all this as, you know, the wheels are in motion, so to speak? Well, once Spencer decided he wanted to do it, she was on board. And she was actually a huge help, a huge help. She helped me track down all of his medical documentation, which was about 170 pages when it was all stacked up together. And she was just invaluable because she has everything.

She has a good memory. she's with him all the time. She knows him better than anybody else. She knows what he's going through. And so she was extremely helpful in making things happen, and she deserves huge credit. We talked a lot about how this affects significant others, and that's another big story in and of itself.

You know, this is a story that's come out through the NFL and the NBA, other big sports like that. It hasn't really been told in MMA because a lot of relationships don't last. You know, a lot of fighter relationships, they don't end up staying with their significant other. They kind of live this itinerant lifestyle or they have a partner and then they get separated later. She has stuck it out through the entire thing. She has seen everything and she is there to support him. And she deserves huge, huge credit for this.

That's amazing. I mean, we saw it with like Matt Wyman recently. Like he's been around for a while. Not only is his wife like been by his side, but she was in his corner for his last fight. watching him get slammed to the mat like that. So, man, it's like you said, it's, it's really difficult. After he spoke, after you visited him and he spoke with you and you guys turned the camera off, what did he say to you?

Did he feel so much better? Did he feel like he just lost 20 pounds of weight off of his shoulders? No. No? No. Spencer has a lot of pride. Rightfully so. The last, a lot of people know of him is of the guy kicking ass.

and to show yourself in a different way is very vulnerable. And so he didn't want me to put the video in the story. Like he was against it because, you know, he's got, this is all he has. Like this is his legacy. His legacy is important to him. It's important for him to know that fans think of him as this mythical figure and a guy who kicked ass and was. a good action-packed UFC fighter.

That's important to him. That's a big part of his identity. So when you come and you present something that doesn't reinforce that, that's upsetting. Now that the story has been released, have you spoken with him? Yeah. I mean, we texted this morning. It wouldn't be said. You know, he asked me about the feedback to the story, what people are saying about it.

I shared with him, Dana, Dana's reaction to John Moore. Morgan, my former colleague. And, yeah, I mean, it's like, what can you say? You know, it's like you go through all this process and you, you know, do all this work to get somebody together. You open yourself up. You make yourself vulnerable. And then, you know, the response has been fantastic.

But then to hear that from Dana is obviously pretty disappointing. At the same time, it's not something that he's not used to. do. Like, like I said, he told this story because he had given up. So he told me several times throughout the reporting of this story, I don't think this story is going to do anything. And I had to be kind of like the optimist. I'm like, you know, we need to tell this story. This story needs to come out here. He's like, no, I don't think it's anything that's going to change. And so he might be right. Like, ultimately, he might be right. Like, it just depends on how many people decide to move from this is just an unfortunate car crash or, you know, something that's

terrible and tragic and oh my God, that's terrible to actually doing something and actually, you know, trying to implement some sort of change, get these guys some sort of help. I was going to ask you about Dana's reaction and that conversation you had with John because I don't want to say I'm not surprised, but I mean, I guess I'm not surprised. with how he reacted to it. You're the man behind the story. Seeing that and seeing Dana's reaction, were you surprised at all?

Was this the reaction you expected from him? I mean, I didn't expect him to say the exact words that he did. But he had the chance to comment to this story. Like I wrote out a long, long list of questions, and I forwarded it to the PR people. And he didn't respond. And I think, here's the truth.

Dana feels comfortable with certain people, certain reporters in this industry. And I think if you've been around for a while, you know who they are. And so if this has happened a lot, whenever there's a negative story, whenever there's a controversy or something like that, if you want Dana to respond, it's likely going to happen through a couple of different vehicles or a couple of different outlets. or a couple of different outlets.

Those are the ones that he feels comfortable with. Those are the ones that he feels that he can trust. And the bottom line is that if you're not those people, the only way you're going to get him is in a scrum with a bunch of other reporters or if you somehow manage to run into him on the street. You know, because he has a team of PR people that manage his appearances.

And if he wants to talk, He certainly will. But more and more these days, as the years have gone by as media criticism, as he's become more defensive to media criticism, he has shrunk the list of people that he is okay with talking to. And that's because he doesn't trust certain reporters to get out the message that he wants or get it out in the context that he wants or the way that he wants. And so he picks and chooses who he talks to.

And I'm not on the list. I am also not on that list. That is okay. You know, it is what it is. So I was curious because obviously we work together. We're in these meetings together. We've been talking about this story for weeks now. Like, when's it going to drop?

It's going to drop the end of the year. It's going to drop this week. From the time you actually like ended the article. and we're like submitted the draft and we're like, all right, this is ready to launch whenever. How long did it take? Like, how long did it take from the point where you hit the period for the final time in the article to when it actually got released? Oh, they were like, there were tweaks going on the night before. But this is a four-month process.

This took four months to do. The pandemic happened. I was kicked out of the house that I was living in because there was five. all around it. And I moved into a new house. So there's been a lot. But I mean, this is really,

and I have to give huge, huge thanks to Brian Tucker, my boss and his boss, John Ness, at SB Nation. They really, really gave it the thorough editing that it needed

and they made it better. so and that was a process that was happening right up to the night before publish so huge credit is is is deserved by them was there a part of you that was worried that this story would never get approved to come out like were there nights where you're just like I don't know if this is going to happen like maybe there's a certain speed bump you had to go over like where there I haven't I've never written a story quite like this or even close to it so I can't imagine what that was like for you were there moments where you didn't think this would even come out? Of course. Yeah. I mean, there was, you know, to be perfectly honest, there were times

when Spencer was like, I don't want to do the story. Like he went back and forth, you know, he was still wrestling with it. And particularly in light of some of the reporting that came out or that I unearthed this, they were in the process of doing this story, it's not flattering stuff. It doesn't make him look good. It doesn't, it's, it's vulnerable. It makes, it makes him look like he's suffering from a brain damage, a brain disease. That's not easy. And so there were times when I had to fight with him, like, look, this is, this is worthwhile. And I had to get other folks to talk to him too.

And eventually he came around and things worked out, but it was not easy getting him to tell this story. It's not going to be easy to get other fighters to tell this story when they inevitably arise. It's like, this is not an easy story to tell. and yeah, you just kind of have to keep going. Has there been another fighter past that has reached out to you since the story has dropped and commended you at all? Or maybe come forward and say, like, listen, at some point, maybe I want to tell my story, I want to do it through you.

Has that happened yet? One, but that was prior to publish. And I'm working on that story right now. But no, it's not like a bunch of fighters have been passed. patting me on the back. A bunch of journalists have been patting me on the back. But, you know, if you're a, if you're a guy that's fighting in the UFC right now, even if you're a guy that's just retired, you're like, it's not something you really want to talk about. If you're in the UFC right now, you're still focused on being a champion. You still believe that you can be a champion. And if the star is aligned right, and you have the right performances, you have the right people, you get the right fights. You are a champion. So, um, This is something that's going to play out over the next 5, 10, 15, 20 years. This is the reason why we're hearing about it now because Spencer started his career in the mid-2000s, like in his UFC career. And so this stuff takes time.

Just the nature of the disease itself, the potential diseases, the potential consequences of this career don't automatically make themselves known unless it's a severe trauma like a brain bleed or something like. that. So this is going to be a long process. I feel like we're at the tip of the iceberg. I feel like there will be more in the future. How many more is, I don't know, but this sport involves people getting punched in the head and there will be more stories like this. Yeah, Matt Brown, even at his media scrum today is recorded, it's Wednesday, even talked about, he brought it up himself. He talked about, he goes, I saw the Spencer Fisher article. I almost didn't even want to click on it because I think about retirement every single time I fight. So it was scared him. And he's trained with Spencer. So he didn't even realize how bad that it got. So and I think a lot of people are in the same

position. But last thing, I know you're on vacation, which makes me appreciate this conversation even more. The article is called The Cost of Being the King. You can find it on MMAFighting.com. But you've done a lot of work like this, Stephen, over the years. You've done a lot of investigative journalism, things like that. Is this the proudest moment of your journalism career seeing this all play out or maybe not the proudest, but you know what I mean? It's tough to see the story play out and know what it's about and say and like be proud of it. But still, like, come the end of the year, this is a story that everyone's still going to be

talking about. So I guess proud from start to finish getting this out the work that it entailed, but the story itself was very difficult to tell. Where would you rank this? Well, I would, I would only be proud of this story if it actually spurred change. That's when I will be proud of this story. That's when I will be proud of any reporting that I do. If it actually has a capacity to change, that's what the best investigative reporting does.

I am a low-level guy. There are guys, you know, that work for the Post, the Times, Baltimore Sun. Those guys are the real gangsters. Like, I'm just an MMA reporter who cares about this sport. I will consider it successful if it actually spurs change. And to that point, I'd like to first. it in a positive way. The reason why I got involved in this sport is because I love the UFC. I have always loved the UFC. And I followed the journey. I got it. That part of my DNA was

awoken and I wanted to follow this sport and be invested in it and dedicate my life to it from a certain perspective. I'd like to say to Dana White, you know, you are the best at doing what you do. You have the best fight promotion out there. You guys are the UFC. You guys are the most badass promoters out there. Think of how badass it would be if you provided something for these guys at the end of the road. Think of how badass it would be if you spent as much money on post-fight care as you do on drug testing or defeating the coronavirus. Those are issues, huge issues that you guys have tackled. Why not tackle this other issue? Why not, instead of contributing to $250,000 a year to a study, why not contribute more

or hire somebody to set up a structure so that these guys have something to look forward to and some sort of security net at the end of the road? Don't leave it to them. millions of Americans don't contribute enough to their 401ks. This is not a new thing. People don't plan for the future. It's a problem. That's why we have to set up institutions and guardrails. So it takes it out of their hands to a certain extent.

And you as the UFC, you have the power to do that. So I'm getting off my soapbox. Well said. Well said. I mean, there's not enough in terms of like retelling the history of the sport. and it's, this kind of fills in that piece. Just, it's kind of an unfortunate way. But still, people wanted to know about Spencer Fisher.

Like, they've seen him fight. They almost forgot about him. And to read this story, it's just unbelievable. It's fascinating. And it's, it's very heartbreaking, too. So I'm glad, you know, he was able to do that and tell the story. But just a wild, wild story to actually read and watch in the video. But again, I cannot recommend this enough.

the cost of being the king, written by the great Stephen Morocco, with Spencer Fisher, just unbelievable stuff. Stephen, I appreciate the time. Enjoy the rest of your vacation, man. Well deserved. Congratulations on getting this out there. And we'll talk soon, man. I appreciate the time.

Thank you, Mike. Appreciate it.