MMA Fighting - The MMA Hour: Episode 482 (w/ Alexander Gustafsson, Anthony Smith)

Episode Date: May 28, 2019

On this episode of The MMA Hour, Luke Thomas speaks to UFC Stockholm headliners Alexander Gustafsson and Anthony Smith about their fight this weekend, their respective career and training camps, the light heavyweight division, their loses to champion Jon Jones, and more. We also take your questions on the latest news in MMA on Sound Off and A Round of Tweets. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network. It is Tuesday, May 28th, 2019, and this, ladies and gentlemen, is the MMA hour. Thank you so much for joining me. I'm the host of this program. My name is Luke Thomas, as always. Fun show planned for you donkeys today. Let's see, we're going to have the co-headliners for UFC Stockholm here at 1240 East Coast time. Lionheart would make his return to the show, Anthony Smith, at around 2 o'clock or so.

The other headliner, Alexander Gustafson, will be here. That should be a lot of fun. Plus, your calls. We did not get to them last week because of the long interview that we had. So we've got all the ones from last week, plus all the ones from this week. We'll make them current. We'll make them fresh. It'll be good on the sound off.

As always, 844-866-2468. Keep sending those questions. And you can email voice clips if you're an international listener slash viewer using the MMMA hour at voxmedia.com. Keep sending those. Plus, we'll get to a round of tweets using your hashtag, well, our hashtag, the MMA hour. And, yeah, a bunch of other stuff. Hope you had a nice weekend. Hope it was relaxing three days off, for most of us anyway.

It was Memorial Day, which is a weird day because a lot of folks thank veterans on Memorial Day, but that's for Veterans Day. You should actually honor the fallen on Memorial Day, but, you know, I'll take military gratitude where I can get it. So, yeah, I'm sure what else to say about that. We have UFC Stockholm coming up this weekend. All right, let's do this, boys.

Time for a round of tweets, yes? Boys and girls. I got a stall. Well, then why don't we just... All right, I mean, we're going to push the Anthony Smith thing back. Yeah, I guess we can do that. That's all right. That's fine.

So there you go. People get mad when you say MM&A predictions are kind of like bogus, but if you treat them as fun, they're fine. Occasionally you'll hit the jackpot, you'll get some right. Remember those days when the UFC used to do three. in a row, three events in a row, Thursday, Friday, Saturday. There was one of those where I did predictions for the site. I got them all right on Thursday.

I got them all right on Friday. And then I like est the bed on Saturday. And I never heard the end of it from the Joker's online. But the reality is, how could you possibly do that well? It's just, it's a lot of alchemy. And folks don't want to admit that, but it kind of is. Not for every, everybody, but for 99% of people. All right.

Let's do a round of tweets. When the clock goes up, there it is. God damn, I always get that wrong. All right. Hey, guys. this is not related to MMA, but what are your thoughts on the unidentified flying objects being seen on the East Coast of the U.S.? It seems to have been happening for years. Thanks, guys. If you guys didn't see, the New York Times did an article on how the, I believe it's the Navy is dealing with these literal UFOs. They don't know what they are. Is it some kind of secret drone program? Is it aliens? They don't really know. They move in unusual ways, but they were saying they had to change the way that pilots report them and what they mean. If you've not seen it, I highly. encourage it. I don't know what it means, but that article caught my attention. I'll be honest.

Next. If Gustafson loses, does he retire? He said he might. Does Smith become a number one contender again? He also might as well, man. He might as well. And I don't know what you do with that because he just lost to John. So beat John, beat Gustafson. And then you go back. But we've all been saying for years, man, the only ones who beat Gustafsson are the very best. So if he does that, it's a little bit unclear. Maybe you fight Johnny Walker. I don't know. There's a couple ways this could go. but that one is a possibility, sure. Next. Should I be excited for any of the prelim fights on Saturday?

That's a great question. The answer is probably not, because I don't know any of the ones that are on it. Let me look up here very quickly, if I may. UFC Stockholm Wiki. Sorry, I know I'm killing time here. I will do this very quickly. Let's see.

Tanya Avenger, Lena Landsberg, is pretty interesting. Stevie Ray, Leonardo Santos. Good to see Leo Santos back. Hein versus Frank Camacho is back. All right. Yeah, there's a couple of them on there. That's pretty good. Next.

Any chance you can elaborate on the future of MMA fighting? Hardcores that have been with you all deserve some insight. Yeah, there's been some staff turnover. Look, man, I am not the editor of the site. I'm not even full time. I'm just a contractor, so I don't make any of these decisions. You know, I find out about this stuff in a lot of the ways that you guys do. All I can say is every day we wake up with the same mission to give you guys the best kind of product

that we can. Certainly, you know, we sad to see many of our colleagues go, but we wish them nothing but the best. I know that the site is restaffing, but I'm a little bit on the outside of looking in this one, too. I don't, you know, I don't have a leadership position. I have a visible position here with this show, which I'm very excited to have, but just to be clear, you know, it's a little bit out of my hands as well. So all I know is everyone's staff is talented. Everyone's working hard and, you know, time marches on. Next. much, if any, do you believe injuries have lower dominant cruises potential ceiling? Man, probably a lot, you know?

I know the guy was getting Botox shots in the bottom of his feet just to deal with the punishment. It appears, and I don't know this to be a fact, but just looking at the way in which he trains and that style and that sort of weird in and out fainting and fainting footwork, it just seems incredibly labor-intensive. And the reason why a lot of people don't have labor-intensive styles is for this. It's that they are hard on the body, and they require a lot of cardiovascular energy to make it work. On the other hand, the benefit of having one of those labor-intensive styles that's incredibly difficult for an opponent to keep up with it. So you see a lot of labor-intensive

styles. Like Habib Numbigramid Madov has a very labor-intensive style, which is not that great for finishing. Same with Cruz. Both of them have finishes. Both of them are capable finishers, but that's not what the style most, it's not what the style chiefly enables. It chiefly enables just work capacity. But work capacity is enough to break a lot of people. So it can break your opponent, but the problem is it can also do a number on you. Next. Pick one player from the Raptors or the Warriors to have trained for the next 12 months. Who has the best chance for success in MMA?

Okay, so that's an easy answer for the Raptors. The answer is Serge Ibaka, who just loves to fight, right? Easy, easy answer for him. I would say Draymond Green, but I think Draymond Green is a clown and couldn't fight his way out of a wet paper bag. So for the Warriors, I would say Igwadala. I would say Igwadala. Or maybe Boogie Cousins, but he's always injured too.

And he's too big. So I'm going to go with Eagle Adala. I'm going to go with your sixth man there. Next. TJ versus Sohudo, Woodley versus Usman, Rose versus Androge. Why does it seem like when a fighter is about to reach another level of success, they lose? Is there something to be said about that? Yeah, dude, because climbing the ranks and the various forms of achievement ladders is insanely difficult.

It's why St. Pierre is. so special, or Anderson Silva is so special, or a Demetrius Johnson is so special, it's hard to maintain consistent greatness, or John Jones. It's hard to maintain consistent greatness in this sport. And you see, these are all different positions that they're in. Woodley was a little bit more senior, but the point still remains the same. One more before the clock expires, please. Should Megan Anderson and Cyborg, for vastly different reasons, move to PFL or Bellator? Also, Felicia Spencer probably could die down to 135 to put an end to 145 fiasco. I actually asked her about that. She wouldn't say she couldn't, but does not seem at all interested in doing it.

For Megan Anderson, I don't know about PFL, but I think Bellator for both those ladies could be hugely beneficial. Although they have a 145 division over there. That's got some pretty decent fighters as well. No walk in the park. All right, do we have our next guest? Let's get to him now. Maybe perhaps one of my favorite interviews in the sport. This man will headline the upcoming UFC Stockholm card when he takes on Alexander Gustafson. He joins us now via Skype. Let's see him Lionheart. There he is. Mr. Lionheart, how are you, sir?

I'm good, Luke. How are you? Good. Are you in Stockholm? I am. How is it? First time in Sweden. Quite cold with all that flannel, I would imagine. It's a little bit chilly. It's cool, man. It's cool. The town center is really cool.

The architecture is cool. It's got some cool brick streets and real, cool looking buildings and the people have been nice so far. They haven't attacked me or said mean things. Like you've been getting lots of, lots of fist bumps and people politely asking me not to win. The Swedes seem like nice people. Yeah. Yeah, so far, they've been pretty nice.

All right. Well, I appreciate you making some time for us and talking about this with us here. Let me start the interview. I was thinking about this and doing a bit of a preview. You know, you're both coming off of a loss to John Jones. Let's start with you. now that you've had some time to digest everything and think about it, how do you look back on the Jones experience? Yes, you lost the fight, but absent that,

how do you weigh what you gained and what you lost there? I mean, I don't think I gained a whole lot. A lot of stress and driving myself crazy. I lost a lot of sleep. I don't really pick a whole lot of good things that came from the John fight. You know, and that's why I'm here. Sweden, not that much longer later. I got a, I got to shake that. I got to get that, that shitty feeling out of my stomach. What was it? Was it, because you had headlined cards

before. Now, not one that big, but was it you were consumed by the enormity of the moment, and then you kind of lost yourself in the fight? Was it something else? How do you evaluate it? Still can't. That's the problem. Like you said, I've been in plenty of main events. have been, it didn't feel any different. You know, I mean, the media obligations were a little bit crazier. The, you know, Vegas was pretty wild. You know, there was lots of fans and, you know, I got recognized a lot more. But other than that, man, it felt normal.

Like, the whole camp felt so good. I think maybe the, you know, I mean, if we're really going to split hairs, I think the training camp was a little bit too long. But I can't put my finger on anything, you know, the fight night I felt good walking to the Octagon I felt good right before the fight started I felt fine

and I was better than I'd ever been like I was sharp I was on point I was everything was perfect I don't know what happened so the camp this time it's a different fighter so it's going to be a different camp so I'm not asking for changes I guess what I'm asking for is

was the way you structured the camp different as a result of tweaking things in response to the John fight? Well, just because of the timeline, it was obviously shorter. So I actually think that that was a little bit more beneficial. You know, when I started this camp, it was almost like I hadn't lost anything. You know, I took a few weeks to just process it and just be normal for a couple weeks. But from day one, I almost picked right back up where I left off.

with a John fight, which isn't normal. So that's not typically a normal thing. So, you know, it's like we just extended it. It's like I took a couple weeks and then just kept on going. You know, nothing really changed. Hmm. I think it was Aaron Bronstetter who pointed this out over at TSN. I want to make sure I give him credit.

Since 2016, he's had three fights. You've had 11. So this will be his fourth. This will be your 12th. Any lesson to infer from that? No, you know, I guess it don't really, know what to think of that. You know, I guess I didn't realize he was that inactive. You know, I guess just generally, I know that he doesn't fight that often. I guess I didn't think,

I didn't realize it was that, uh, it was that bad bad. I mean, maybe that just means I fight too much. I don't know. I suppose that's one lesson to draw. Here's the one thing I've been thinking about. It's impossible for me to know exactly what the last fight will mean. I tend to think it's probably more benefits to it than you realize, but who the hell knows, right? Um, the one thing I do think about, though, is, with respect to the fight, is, well, how many times have you been working with Mark Montoya? Which fight? How many numbers does this fight make? Andrew Sanchez, Hector Lombard, Tiago, Rashad, Volkin, John, this is seven. Oh, so you guys have to be in a rhythm at this point then? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, especially as often as I'm there, you know, I'm almost like a

full-time teammate. Yeah, things are going well. They really are. My mindset changed a lot, this whole training camp, and I think that that's been the biggest difference. But as far as the structure of training and all that stuff, Mark keeps a pretty tight ship, so everything's pretty much stayed the same.

So, okay, two things then. A lot of times guys after a loss, now typically that comes from a bad loss. You did not have a bad. When I say bad loss, I mean like a knockout or a submission, right? Or they just get thoroughly dominated or something. you know, it's a terrible beating, which you did not get. But they'll try and chase something.

So, for example, Michael Bisping gets choked out by St. Pierre, tries to fight Kelvin Gastelam soon thereafter. And, you know, it's a horrible end to things. Now, that was different. He got finished. It was a much closer approximation. But still, they're chasing something to wash it out, whether or not the next step is inadvisable or not.

Any concerns that that might be in play here? Or do you feel like this is still strategic and considered enough of a process to not have those concerns bear upon you? Excuse me. I don't have any of those concerns. Not if anyone else has, you know, does have them. They haven't voiced them. But I'm not chasing a win. That's, I think that that's the difference.

I'm not chasing the win at all. I haven't even thought about the fight in a win versus loss situation or what this does for title contention or where this puts me in the rankings. Hasn't even crossed my mind. So I do think that some of those guys are chasing a win to get that bad taste out of their mouth, and that's not what I'm doing. So you mentioned there was a bit of a. switch and mind frame for the camp.

Can you share more about what that means? I'm chasing their performance. That's all I want. To be honest with you, I don't give a fuck what happens in the fight. I want to perform, and that's it. I want to hit him as many times as I possibly can.

I want to punch what I can punch. I want to kick what I can kick, and if it gets too close, I'll drag him to the fucking ground, and if it gets up, I'll do it again. That's all I want to do. I just want to perform. That's it. That's as far as my mind has gone. and after that we'll see what happens

whatever's going to happen is going to happen but like it's not even about Alex this is about me this is about wanting to take a break but I can't do it with this burning feeling in my stomach I just need to go like I have this feeling I just need to destroy something so whatever happens in the interim

it doesn't matter to me I just I just need to get this feeling out of my stomach and it's driving me crazy it keeps me up at night I just I just don't give a shit If it could be Alex, it could have been 10 other guys in the division. It doesn't matter. I mean, clearly I'm a professional, so we're obviously aware of where he's good and where he potentially isn't, and we want to get to those areas.

But there's no game plan. You know, like the last two fights, I think that I think I just got a little bit too intricate with the game plans, and I think it makes me think too much. And I'm an instinctual fighter and I always have. So I think that maybe I got away from kind of what brought me to the dance a little bit. And I'm the pressure guy that gets in your face and swings hammers. And that's what got me here. And, you know, I could be the super clean striker that's really pretty and, you know,

ooze and odds everybody. But that's, like, deep down in my heart, that's not who I am. And I think that I was, I don't know, maybe it was trying to be something that I'm not. You know, like I have the abilities to do that. I think that we at this level of the game, I think we all have the ability to fight like that. But I think it really comes down to who you are. as a person. And that's just not who I am. And I don't think that that's a secret. So there is no game plan. It's to just react. And most of the time, my instincts are correct. And I just want

to do what feels right in the moment and not hold myself back so much and stop trying to think so much in this fucking fight. Is that what you did in the Shogun and Rashad fights? Now the Rashad fight was so short. It's hard to say, right? But maybe in the Shogun fight, like you just kind of felt like, I'm going to bomb on him wherever we go. That's exactly how we went into the Shogun fight because we didn't have enough time. I took it on like eight days notice of something. So there was really no time to overthink it

or try to come up with some sweet game plan that was going to wow the world. It was just going and just do what feels right. And again, we were aware of where Shogun's dangerous and where we kind of wanted to stay away from. But outside of that, it just react. and I've been doing this so long that you're not going to throw anything that I'm not going to see. So I guess I don't know why I wanted to get away from being so instinctual and just kind of fighting on the fly.

But if it's either, if it's do that and risk getting caught or something bad happening or feeling how I felt after the John fight, I'll risk getting caught every day. That's interesting. So you actually felt worse after the John fight than you did maybe let's say after the Tiago Santos fight. Now, not the weight cut part, but because you two went out there and just murdered each other for a good long while. You kind of gave them what you had and then, you know, the tank was on E and whatever. But is that a fair assessment? That's 100% fair. I left Brazil with my head held high because I left it in there.

You know, I fought my ass off and obviously didn't go my way. And there's factors that go into that. Like you said, the weight cut and the travel and all and all that stuff. but I didn't lose sleep over the Tiago fight. Although I know I could win that fight, that I should have won that fight and that I think we run that back again, I think it looks totally different.

I didn't have that shitty feeling because I know that giving, like, taking into account what I had to give for that performance before the fight even started, I gave everything I had. That was all I had left. And in the John fight, that didn't happen. And I left there feeling like I could have fought another 10 rounds.

I had a lot more to give. And that's a terrible feeling to have. So without getting too much into any kind of game plan, being that there might not even be one, nevertheless, I'd like to talk about Alex. And I know what you're probably going to say. Say what? There's not.

I'm not lying to you. There is no game plan. Okay. Nevertheless, though, you are aware of what he is good at as an opponent. Let me ask you this question. My judgment, for whatever that is worth, maybe not much. he seems much better as a matador than a bull. Do you agree or disagree?

I 100% agree. Does that all affect how you want to fight him? No, not really. I think I'm a better bull than a matador. So it happens to work out in my favor. At least in my opinion. That's my opinion. There's only one way we're going to find out,

and that's just a few days away. So I think that Alex clearly has really good footwork. He starts everything with his jab. He's got a nasty rear-up. cut. He's got a nasty left hand when he switches to the southpaw. But other than that, with absolutely no disrespect, I don't see anything else to worry about. He's not a big kicker. He's not a great offensive wrestler. He's not a jihitsu guy that's going to take you down and smash past your guard. It's not going to butterfly sweep you or any

kind of sleep for that matter. He's very basic, and so am I. So I'm not saying that as a knock on him. but he's very limited at what he's really, really good at. And it's done him well for a very long time. He's very good at what he does. He's long. His movement, I'm sure at times will be very annoying because he just doesn't stop. You never get a beat on him. You know, he's seen him frustrate several people.

So I know what to expect. You know, there's no questions going. It's not John Jones where, like, you never know what that fucking guy might do. You know, there's no question to, what I'm going to get it myself into on Saturday. Do your coaches, you might not have a game plan. Do you think your coaches have a game? Because I talk to Mark, I just feel like somewhere in the back of his back of his back of his pocket,

there's a little tiny game plan about where he might even like Jedi mind trick you in terms of steering you one direction or another. Do you think that's possible? Yeah, I wouldn't call it a game plan though. Mark is good at, I'm not, I'm not. one of those guys where you'll have to like beat this game playing in my head over and over and over for 10 weeks to get it to work. If Mark sees something in the fight, he'll call it and I'll do it. And like I don't question it. So if I, if he says, you know, whatever he sees, I'll just do it

immediately without, without questioning it or wanting to see it myself. That's the problem. A lot of guys hear what they hear what their corners are saying, but they don't necessarily see it themselves. So they don't have the confidence to just go and do whatever that specific technique might be because they don't see it themselves, which I can't disagree with. It depends on what kind of person you are, but I trust Mark. So if Mark says there, it's there. And that, I would imagine there will be a lot of that going on where he'll see something, he'll call it and I'll do it. And I just perform better that way. I perform better just by hearing whatever he wants to do. And I just do it. It takes my thought process of it, and I just go. It really

dumbed it down to the bare basics of fighting. You say it, I do it. So, so much of your 2018 and 2017 was built towards getting out there and getting a title shot, and then you got it and you were dissatisfied with how everything went. What is

2019 about? 2019 is going to be a restart. Because as long as as this goes the way, I think it's going to go 29. You won't see me until 2019. So I'd like to get this one out of the way and keep my promise to my family that I'm not doing, I'm not even considering fighting until the wintertime.

So I hope that at the very beginning of the year, we can just take that break and just reset and then just figure out what everything looks like then. I just want to take a step back and let the division develop. You know, like they're not going to give me a title shot right away. and that's fine. You know, I have no problem earning it and having to fight again. That's not a problem. But it'd be nice to let the division develop a little bit and just pull myself out of it for a little while.

You know, sometimes I feel like maybe the fans are a little bit over-exposed. Like, Jesus Christ, like, these guys here again. Like, they just keep seeing my face. So I think maybe pulling myself out of it a little bit and just letting other shit happen. And then maybe people will be excited to see me again instead of like, oh, here he is again, you know. what do you want to do with your time off you want to paint you want to read books you want to write books

no I mean I have like I am so excited to get home my kids are out of school the the day before the fight that Friday and I'm going to hook my camper up to my truck and we're going to get the four wheelers and the side by side and we're just going to pull it all over the country

I can't wait we have like five trips planned and then just keep on dragging it around in between what do you have in the camper like what's the Anthony Smith rules of the road for the camper. Rules of the road for the camper. Well, usually behind the camper, there's going to be a side-by-side and four-wheelers. Inside of it, there's probably going to be lots of beer, lots of yard games, a bunch of stakes,

and probably packed full of kids' toys until we park and have to pull them all out. Well, I got to tell you, that doesn't sound too bad, my friend. Enjoy Stockholm. Hopefully you get a chance to go look around. probably going to be in a bird on the way of the way home right after it's over, which who could blame you? I'm looking forward to Saturday, man. I think it's a big fight for both of you. It's an interesting test case for both of you as well. And I'm excited.

Have fun. If I'm being, okay, if we're being honest here, how do you feel about the fight? I feel like now, excuse me, I feel like now is the right time for you to fight him. Because I don't know what kind of Alex we're going to get, you know? like, I don't want to overstate things. He's going to be in the show a little bit later. Maybe I'm wrong about this, but something, I don't know, I just didn't like his energy coming off that second John fight,

and I could be completely wrong. I am not Ms. Cleo, not a body language expert, but I think you discount a lot of what happened in the John fight in terms of some of the tools you might have put together that might bring yourself to bear here. And I like your chances to be candid. On the other hand, if Gustafsson is, the kind of one we saw against John the first time,

you got your hands full, man. So it's really, I don't know. It's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, about the title. If I can't be anthew Smith, I'm going to retire. I don't know if that means he's going to be super fired up or if so, or, or if he is saying to himself the, the, the, the ambitions that I had are no longer relevant.

And that's a, that's a, that's a lot for a fighter to weigh on, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. . I totally agree. So that's it, man. We'll see. But I'm looking forward to one way or the other because I know you two are going to get after it.

I know that. Oh, that's for sure, man. There's no doubt about that. I'm coming and he's in his hometown. He's going to come out hot. His heart rate's going to be high. He's got his friends and family and fans and the whole damn country behind him. Man, I'm excited.

All right. Well, have fun. I won't keep you any longer. We appreciate your time, Anthony Smith. You don't need any luck. So I'll just say have fun on Saturday. Thank you. Take care, brother.

there he goes Anthony Smith one of the good guys in the sport okay so last week we had an in-studio guest and it went 75 hours long way longer than we wanted to and as a consequence we didn't get to do a sound off last week and I said I would make it up to you this week because if I can be honest with you the sound off is one of my favorite segments that we do on this show I actually really like hearing from you know of course you can always call 844 866 2468 you can email the mMA hour at voxmedia.com. I love hearing from you guys. I think it's actually one of the cooler things

that we do on the show. So without further ado, why don't we have a nice long edition of the sound off? All right. There he is. He is the Aguardiente to my Guajabo. I saw Danny this weekend in my hometown.

I look on it. I'm on Instagram and I see his story. He's in D.C. and I'm like, wow, this fool came all the way to my city. And didn't even tell me, We did actually end up meeting up. Yeah, yeah. And you were hung over in ways that are hard to describe.

Is that? Very. Yes. I'm feeling a lot better now. You know, as soon as I got to, Brooklyn had a nice, a nice juice. Yeah. You know, put in water, rehydrated. Feeling a lot better.

Now, two questions for you. One, what did you think of D.C.? I like that. It's a weird town, man. It's weird. It feels like a small town, but it's obviously the capital of the U.S. Yeah. So it kind of reminds me of,

where, you know, I grew up, you know, in South Florida. Like, there's so much green and it kind of feels very suburb. But, like, at the same time, it's a big city. And also, like, you go around D.C. And, like, different parts look completely different, too. Which I thought it was pretty cool. You got to see all the sites. You got to see the Lincoln Memorial and the Western Monument.

I was there. I was there. I was there. That's cool, man. It was awesome. First time. I've been to D.C. before, but I was only there. I only, like, stayed there overnight. And then I left in the morning.

So, um, I did. didn't, you know, get to, like, go to all the monuments and stuff like that. So it was nice to definitely do that. All right. And then the last question for you was, what did you drink that made you so hung over? What, didn't I drink, bro? You mix it all together? Tito's.

Tito's vodka was in there. Beer, took a shot of Jameson, whiskey. Yeah, buddy. You know, it was a whole mixture, man. So. You were getting after it. All right. Well, without further ado.

let's talk about these calls. So here's what I'm thinking. Yeah. We'll do the calls for this week first. Okay. And let's pick up what we missed towards the end. All right. Sounds good.

Yeah. All right. What do we got? All right. Well, let's start off with the main event of this weekend. Let's talk about Alexander Gustafson. People have a lot of questions about him and where he could potentially go next. I mean, safe to say, this is a career defining moment for him.

It's a huge moment for him. It's a huge moment. Not as big for Anthony Smith. Big for him too. Exactly. A win or a loss. I mean, a win would be huge and a loss would not be great, but not the end of the world.

but for Alexander Gustafson, this is big. Exactly, yeah. So let's discuss that. Hey, looking, Danny. My name is Amir, and I'm calling from Stockholm, Sweden. How are you today? Good. Awful.

Awesome, you, don't. So Gustafsson's fighting Anthony Smith this week here in Stockholm. I just want to ask you about Gustafsson and what do you think he goes from here, when you lose on Saturday, because he's had three title shots already. And, I mean, I don't mind seeing him get a fourth one because he's a returning fighter. But, yeah, what do you think his career should go from here? No, it was thanks. Well.

All right. So let's say he wins. It picks up a nice win over Anthony Smith, who's super game, super tough, obviously a top contender. What happens with Alexander Gustavson? I think he probably still has a couple more wins to get before they can even talk about a title shot. Yeah. It would also depend on whether John Jones moves up and they create an interim one or, or if there's some other kind of scenario,

but like this idea, like, these guys are both coming off John Jones losses. You know, a win here means nothing for getting back to him in any kind of short time frame. Long-term time frame, yeah, of course, it's obviously valuable. But to me, this is just about ascertaining, is he still the best light heavyweight not named Daniel Cormier and John Jones?

Like, does he still occupy that space? And he very well may might. I don't, I literally, you know, I just don't know. I don't know. I don't know what's going to happen. But if he loses, then the answer is pretty clearly not. And then you've got some real tough questions to ask. Because you guys have the same thing about Rumble.

The Rumble moved on so that he default kept that similar position. So it's a big, big, big fight, huge fight. Yeah. Yeah, I have to agree with you. I don't think there's any other storyline or anything else here in the sense of Gustafson for the longest time has been the guy, you know, not named. John Jones or Daniel Cormier, you know, but he's come so close several times. But for sure he's been a top contender, and that's very hard to do, man.

That's very hard to do to stay at that level. And I think this fight's either keeps his status as who he is or, you know, it could potentially, I'm not saying the beginning of the end here, but, you know, it could steer his career into a different direction. And also, you got to remember some of these fighters like RDA, they're like, look, if I don't think I can be champion, I don't want to keep doing this. Now, I'm not suggesting that's how he feels, but I don't, there's an open question about how, like, Clay Gwita, I think, just wants to compete as long as he can compete. Nothing wrong with either worldview. I make no judgments about it, whatever right, whatever is right for both fighters.

But I don't think that Gustafsson's one of these guys who's like, I'll just compete as long as I can. I think he wants to compete at a certain level. And once that drops off, whatever that level might be, then he starts to make some different choices about it. Yeah, for sure. And I'll push back a little bit on the title, on the title picture. I feel like John Jones being so active and him having a big name. Say, for example, I don't know, Gustafson picks a nice win here, picks up another win over like a top guy, say like a Luke Rockhold at 205 or something.

Dude, I think he's right back in there. And knowing John and seeing how he's operating now, I feel like with the title shots rolling and him just taking on the top contender every time, I think it's possible we might see a third fight. I can't say no because the division's so thin. Yeah. On the other hand, something just feels anticlimactic. about it. I don't know. You know. Yeah, that's true. What happens, what do you think happens if he loses? Do you think he, title shot is done for him or where do you think he stands?

If he, what happens to him and if he loses? Yeah, if he loses. Yeah. Let's say he gets blown out. Man, I will have to ask, I mean, I, I would worry about his long-term future, given what he has said, if that's the case. On this show, he said, if you can't be guys like Smith, he might not want to do it anymore. I'm not making it up, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, that's what he said. All right. Let's talk about another fighter who is no longer with the UFC. Oh, I think I know what this is. So, Luke.

My name's Gabe from PA. Love the show. Thank you. I was just wondering if I can get your thoughts on Elias Codoro being released from the UFC. It's a little odd, you know. He was 8 and 3 in the UFC. He was ranked number 15. He only had his one loss in the last two, three years just this past month.

And it's a little strange. I'm definitely not a fan, really, or we're going to go back and watch any of his fights anytime soon. But it's just odd to release him, considering he was pretty much doing his job, winning fights and everything. But I'll just wonder if I could get your thoughts. Thank you. All right. Well, to the fighters, I mean, I'm not blaming the lias for this specifically, but generally they don't want to work together for mutual benefit. So as a consequence, the promoter, when they decide they don't longer have use for.

you, whatever that may be. This is what's going to happen. I don't advocate that as a worldview that we should love. I advocate that as a fact of existence that we have to acknowledge. Two different things. I'm not saying, oh, that's a great idea. That the UFC can just get rid of you whenever they feel like it. But here's the reality.

They basically can. So if you guys as a fighters don't want to do anything about that, this is going to keep happening, number one. Number two, everyone kind of got this one wrong, Danny. Yeah. People kept saying, oh, they got rid of him because he wasn't entertaining. enough. I think that's part of the story.

Like, don't get me wrong. A fighter not necessarily offering a high entertainment quotient as a competitor. It's not like UFC brass didn't notice that. They noticed that and they probably didn't like it. But there's another layer to that, which is when he got to the UFC, I think he had 11 fights in the UFC total, something like that.

When he got to the UFC, he's 30, 31 now. When he got there, he was 25 or so. what did we talk about with Sage Northcut? At some point, you're going to have 20 total fights. Yeah. He'll have in the next couple of years or so, depending on his competition schedule. He'll be about 25 years old.

Stage Northcut will be. You'll basically know what you have at that point. 20 pro fights, either you're going to be something or you're not. That's what you're going to be, right? We either kind of know. I think what the UFC said was, yes, this guy wins, and he wins because he slows down the fight. He's hard to hurt.

There's a lot of, competitively, it's a weird. challenge and puzzle for guys. It was three and one in his last four. The issue for me is, in addition to they're not necessarily being a high entertainment quotient, the other problem was that as a prospect from 25 to 3031, there just wasn't a lot of technical maturation. They're probably willing to say a prospect who could be very good, who's not all that entertaining right now, will tolerate it.

But at 30, 31 years old, your time is up. Either you're going to develop into something they want to see or you're not. And at that point, if that's all that there is, which is a guy who's good, who can win fights, don't get me wrong. And media loves Elias because he's a very nice guy. He's smart. He's easy to engage. He advocates on behalf of important causes.

We all like him. But if I'm sort of reading the UFC brass's mind, there wasn't enough entertainment and there wasn't enough technical development. If that's all you got, that's a problem. Yeah. Yeah, I would agree. I think his style definitely didn't help him. You know, if he would say like a Mike Perry type or something like that,

maybe we'd be having a different conversation. but I think you're on point about, you know, his maturation and where he's at, because at the end of the day, like, the UFC's paying fighters to fight, right? But I think they also see that as an investment, right? And we see that in soccer all the time. You know, you get somebody that's, you know, 22, 23 and they might not have it all, right? But, like, soccer clubs are looking at what this, what the kid could be in a few years, right? And, you know, if you have the same issues or the same characteristics once, you know, that player is older, then all of a sudden you're like, wait, is it worth, you know, the investment?

Keep, keep this guy on the payroll. We can just do the same thing for a younger guy that might turn out into something else. So, yeah, definitely on that. But it is weird because he is coming off a commie. His first co-meat event was his last fight. And so it kind of felt like there was some investment there. And, you know, he say what you want about his style, but, like, you know, he does have a pretty big following in the game. And people know who he is, you know?

He's got one of the best Twitter games in MMA. Sure, sure. I don't know. It was a weird one. I don't think it's that weird. No? It's weird because he has a winning record, eight and three in the U.S. He was ranked too. He was ranked.

I understand. But like, dude, he loses to who? Derek Brunson, loses to Tiago Santos and then Brad Tavares. What's the commonality there? It's the top ten guys at certain points in their career. Some cases, top five. If every time you bump up against that, you drop, they're just like, all right, well, then this is all it's going to be.

Came up a loss. They were ready to move on. I'm not, again, I'm not advocating on behalf of that. I don't, I wish he still had his, job. But just knowing what UFC management is like, this was I would say predictable, but not surprising. It is what it is, basically.

It is what it is, man. Yeah. All right. Let's talk about somebody in the light heavyweight division who looks to be ready to return to action. Hey, Luke and Dan. This is Lance from South Bend, Washington. My question is about Johnny Walker. So it looks like his

shoulders all healed up. And he is confident in fighting. either John Jones or another top contender. Who would you like to see him fight next? Thanks, guys. So Johnny Walker recently did a media scrum in Vegas, if I'm not mistaken, and he said he's healing up. He's almost 100%.

He needs about four more months, and then he'll be good to go. Yeah, shoulder injuries are no joke, dude. Yeah. So potentially he could be fighting at the end of this year. Yeah. Who do you think he should fight? John Jones? Um, well, coming off of an injury, no.

But Lord knows, given how the division works, he, you know, stranger things have happened. Uh, I would say probably the winner of this fight, maybe Dominic Reyes, depending on how Dominic Reyes stays active. When I say this fight, sorry, I mean Smith versus Gustafson. Yeah. Uh, or Dominic Reyes, that's what I would like to see. You're like, oh, you're killing off another contender.

All right, man. Well, I mean, these guys have to fight each other at some point, right? Are we just going to sit here and just manicure all the careers, boxing style, or are they going to mix it up a little bit? So I'm going to go with that. I'm going to say either one of those two guys. You? I think he needs a name that, you know, I mean, he beat some solid guys,

got some impressive wins, but he has yet to beat a guy that's established, you know, in the division that's been a top contender, that's been a title contender. So, you know, given the fact that Smith and Gustafsson have fought for the title, I wouldn't hate that at all. But, you know, I think I would like to see that John Jones fight. So I wouldn't like him to have like a long road there. I know some people want to, you know, consider him, you know, top prospect and want to groom him.

But I think, you know, get one fight in there, beat a top guy and, you know, fight John Jones or whoever wins the title. You're just desperate for all these guys to fight John Jones tomorrow, I can tell. Yeah, yeah. I want to see fights, man. I want to see title. Do you want to see these guys take some L's before they're ready? I mean, Johnny Walker's actually the best.

How can you prepare for John Jones? Yeah. It's like, you know what I'm saying? Johnny Walker is the more interesting one. Yeah. Because to me, I could see him getting viciously chaoed off trying something and it's not working and then he leaves himself widely exposed.

On the other hand, I can also see John Jones, who's so tactical, so cerebral, sets everything up, you know, just being surprised by the donkery of Johnny Walker. Like, how do you prepare for a dude who just wants to moonwalk and then, you know, do the backpack kid floss or whatever?

And he's just knocking fools out that way. Like, how do you deal with that? I don't know what the answer is, you know? Also, I feel like, you know, John Jones have a feeling he's going to go up to heavyweight at some point. I don't feel like he has a ton of fights left that light heavyweight. So I would like to see that fight.

I would like to see how it looks. And also the more Johnny Walker fights, the more of a chance there is for, you know, fights to drag out longer and go to a decision. And I kind of like that mystique and that mysteriousness that he has of like, who really is this guy? Because we have so little footage on him. Yeah, you know how that injury really derailed him

because he was heating up so fast? Yeah. Not to say he couldn't, I think he'll probably, if he can keep winning, he'll just pick up where he left off. But it would have been nice for him to ride that momentum that he had really put together. Yeah. He decided to, what was he doing? The worm. Is that what he did?

The worm, man. He messed up his shoulder. Bro. You ever had a shoulder injury? No, never. I mean, I have bad shoulders. Like, if I move my shoulders around just from wrestling, like, they'll start cracking and stuff. Do they hurt when they crack?

No, not yet. So if they don't hurt when they crack, what they'll tell you is you're not, you're fine. Okay. There's nothing they can do about popping and cracking that doesn't hurt. It's the popping and cracking that hurts that they have to then address. Your boy has had just every shoulder rotator cuff tore it. Labrum tore it. I never broken any clavicle or anything like that, but I've had every problem.

I've been to physical therapy four times. Three of those times are for shoulders. And two of those times were for surgeries. I've had every problem. Shoulder surgery. Shoulder surgeries. Yeah, dude. Like, it is, it is a nightmare.

It's a nightmare to deal with. Yeah, it's crazy. And he wants to continue doing the worm, man. If I was his camp, be like, yo. Bro, just, you know what I mean? Just do the robot. You know, Ryan Jimo used to do the robot. Rest and peace, Ryan Jimo.

And then he would do the splits. Yeah, yeah. I feel like that's enough. Super impressive. I feel like that's kind of enough, you know? Or you know what? Just roll his video, you know? Just put it on the big screens after he wins.

Yeah. With the worm, like there's, we saw it. It looks cool. It's like Johnny Walker. We believe you can dance. Exactly. You don't need to injure yourself to keep up appearances, buddy. It's insane.

insane. All right. Let's roll on, shall we? All right. Let's talk about a streaming platform. Uh-oh. Hey, Luke, this is Tamara from New York. I was just wondering, do you think the UFC's planning to get rid of Fight

Pass completely how they're putting all these old fights on YouTube for free now when you used to only have to go to Fight Pass to really get the whole event and whatnot? Thank you for your show. Thank you for all you do. And have a good day, Luke. Shots to New York City. Yo, what's up with Fight Pass, man? I mean, it feels like with ESPN Plus, like, you can get just about everything.

I mean, they're still rolling out some prelons, but... And there are other promotions on there, I guess. There are. It just seems like it's losing its value a little bit. Shouts to Jessica Penny. Let's see. I think John Morgan and Z. M Punk, Mr. Phil Brooks. They called the last CFFC.

I love CFC, one of the great regional promotions. I haven't watched. No, no. But I'll catch my Invicton there. Yeah, well, I mean, look, again, two promotions. motions that provide a very valuable service, right? Yeah. For the thing.

Okay, so what is the value to fight past? There's a couple of them. One is that the UFC is probably wanting to keep it around because you never know what could happen with ESPN and ESPN Plus and how the growth of streaming might affect certain platforms or not. Here's the thing. And any time there is a new technology, Danny, that takes over the space, what ends up happening is there become a bunch of players that all get involved at once.

and typically though not always, there ends up being a bit of a return to the consumer as they all compete with each other. But what also ends up happening as new technology emerges is that all those new players, some of them begin to die out and then you begin to coalesce around a handful of strong players. There's actually a lot of legal theory about antitrust in this regard.

You know, why is it you only have a few tech giants? Well, because the rest of them all got put out of business. Why is you have a few airlines? Partly there are some legal restrictions around that, but mobile carriers, because we haven't broken up a large telecom since, you know, Bell, AT&T. So here's my point.

The UFC is probably waiting to see what happens. Who are going to be the winners and losers in this space? We'll just keep FightPass here to see how that plays out. The second part is that no one seems to pick up on is DeZone. If the UFC stays in business with FightPass and they keep CFFCs and they keep Muay and Roy Jones' box, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And was Polaris on there or no?

Polaris was on there. EBI's combat jiu-jitsu, everything else. Those are all properties that then can't sign with DeZone. It's simply a way to damage them from ever doing anything beyond Bellator or Combate, which, by the way, those are substantial assets. Yeah. But it hurts them in terms of offering, and then KSW and some other ones. But it hurts them in terms of offering a wider array of potentially important content.

Thirdly, it's a pipeline. the ones who perform at Invicta or at CFFC. You're already on FightPass. It's a natural thing for the promoters to probably work with the UFC. I don't even know this is ethical, but whatever, to then funnel them up all the way to the UFC. It creates a direct pipeline, both with the consumer and the promoter as well.

So it's a lot of different things about what's the future going to be. Let's hurt a competitor. And let's make sure we continue. There was a New York Times article. Do you remember this a couple months ago? Right when the UFC deal had matured, you know, matured or maybe three months ago. Regarding what?

The future of the ultimate fighting championship in the ESPN era. And one of the things they said was they haven't done enough to secure the future of new stars. And I'm like, well, you can say how fruitful the efforts are if you want. That ain't even close to true.

You have the ultimate fighter, which is not a good show, but might be a good pipeline for talent recruitment. You've got Daniel White's Tuesday night contender series. That is now on ESPN Plus, right? Right, but here's a point.

I'm merely discussing recruiting talent. I don't care where they can. go, talking about talent recruitment. You got those two. You got looking for a fight, which is the all-time dumbest show in America, but nevertheless, they at least find some prospects. You have just the general policy of signing people. You also have these other pipelines

from Invicta, from CFFC, from everything. The idea that the UFC is not making a full-throated effort to find the next generation of talent. No, there's an effort for sure. They're building performance institutes in China and Mexico. That is so demonstrably wrong. I couldn't believe the New York Times printed it. Anyway,

neither here nor there. It's part of all these efforts. Yeah, that's why you get your news at MMAfighting.com. That's right. God damn it. All right, let's talk about one. We didn't get to talk about one, and, you know, some interesting things happen. The least transparent organization in MMA.

The least transparent. I mean, we don't need to know weights, really. Who does? Right. All right, let's talk about that. Hey, look, Danny. This is Harun from Madrid. I'm calling regarding the recent defeats of Eddie Alvarez and Sage Northcutt in one FC.

could it be that the company actually set up the fighters to have difficult matchups in order to show the world that they have the quality to compete with the UFC what do you think is it unlucky beginnings for our UFC fighters or maybe a smart coup from one FC thank you both for your hard work take it easy hopefully that man's an Aledico Madrid fan there's no chance probably I mean he doesn't hate his life well it's a superior team at the moment

I'll just say that much. Look at the legal standings. Anyways, we cannot answer that in the sense of like, do we know one actually set them up to lose? Obviously, we don't know and there's no way of speculating that. But we can at least answer this. Was it good for one that, you know, Eddie Alvarez and Sage Northcutt suffered losses?

This idea that they would sign people at probably not cheap contracts to then spike them, I'm not calling it the world's dumbest theory, but maybe the world's second dumbest theory behind flat earth. You're like flat earth is at the top and then let's spike our expensive talent on their heads so that we can ruin our own investment.

Probably number two. To answer the question in a more serious way, what they're asking is, is there any kind of potentially net positive reaction or takeaway from Eddie and Sage, losing. The answer to that question is yes. It's just to say yes, there are other really competitive spaces inside MMA. The UFC does not have a monopoly on all the competitive guys. Well,

they have the overwhelming majority of competitive fighters through all the divisions, but they don't have all of them. The other thing you could say is the UFC is really good about getting rid of talent when it becomes too expensive or they're no longer useful for them, or they're kind of past it a little bit. Eddie Alras has been in a lot of wars, man, and it'd be foolish to write them off. It'd be foolish not to be. to notice he's also been in a lot of wars. You have to kind of juggle that a little bit. Yeah.

And in the case of Sage, everyone gets real sensitive about him when you make some kind of declaration. Dude, we're going to know relatively soon whether he's going to blossom into something. If you're 25 years old and you're 20 fights deep in your pro career and you're still kind of struggling at that level, it's probably all you're going to be.

People would say, oh, that's the, he's got 10 years left. Yeah, if you start at 25, you have 10 years left. If you start at 16, you don't. or you start at 20 or 18, whatever. You kind of know what you're up against at that point. You have to develop at a certain level. At 25, 26, you should be, again, you can get better past then. It's not that you're stuck there forever.

Yeah. But you should have a pretty clear sense about what caliber of opponents you're able to take on and you're going to know. So my hunch is that one probably overestimated what Sage was ready for. And the other one is Kaposa, Grabaka Hitman on Twitter. He was all over this. thought that the Eddie Alvarez matchup was not a good one, that the other guy had a very strong chance of winning,

and lo and behold, he did. So one was predictable, and the other one was, in hindsight, kind of understandable. Now, I'm not burying Sage. Everyone's like, oh, you're burying them? No, I'm not burying them. Let's see what happens. Let's see what happens. But the point being here is, donks, we're not too far from knowing.

Yeah, I mean, there's also some late bloomers. Like, if you look at Anthony Smith, like, we thought we knew who he was, and then he really came into his own in the last couple years. And he's 30, but yeah. You don't see that often, right? At this point in time, like, you know, there's a big percentage drop off. And also, he was a regional, like regional, regional fighter.

That's true. He wasn't. Sage has been fighting elite. Yeah, he's more, you know, at the highest. Or high level. Or high level. Bottom wrong of the high level, which is still very tough. Yep.

And the question is, is that best for development? Maybe if you had done the Anthony Smith route where you're fighting on these Nebraska cards. Yeah. That can be better for a potential long-term development. Also, he had a weight cut issue, too. Yeah, maybe. It's very interesting.

I remember, I think it was Dia Kesei, recently said after he picked up a win over Joe Duffy was it, he was like yo I thought about actually like maybe it was good for me to go back to the regional scene like if the UFC kicked me out maybe it was good to get back into the regional scene and that's probably better for my future so

there's something to be said there we'll find out yeah I just think one needs to recalibrate how they're booking him and where they book him not in a ring and not against the decorated striker yeah but I do think it's in some sort of ways there are some positives to that because look for the longest time it was like anywhere the UFC guy would go, they would just destroy everybody else.

Whereas, you know, these guys that were pretty good at in the UFC go over to one. And all of a sudden, you know, they are coming short against, you know, one competition. So it does speak volumes to the sense that, like, one does have some really good fighters. Sure. Yeah. I call them least transparent because, hello, they're not transparent even a little bit. On the other hand, this is the point I also make about one. Dude, it's good to have an Asian promoter that does what they do.

I think I mentioned this on the MMA beat. They produce a lot of content. They find a lot of good fighters. They're giving opportunities to other fighters like a Debutreus Johnson and Sage and Eddie Alvarez. Misha Tate got hired by them to be an executive. These are all positive developments. I mean, we got Ben Asker. The UFC got Ben Asker.

And by the way, their rule set is better than the one we use in North America. They allow. Probably. They need to the head of a down opponent. And they allow or they don't have a 10-point must system. There are so many positive things you can say about one. I'm not bashing them in totality. Yeah.

My only gripe is... There's a lot of good things about it. It's a lot of good things about it. My only gripe is they just make a lot of weird-ass decisions and there's no public accountability for it. Yeah, for sure. All right, let's talk about Habib and where he ranks is the best lightweight of all time.

Danny. Luke, Habib, Ramani from the Bay Area. Yeah, yay. I'm back again. Hey, one thing I've noticed and observed with a lot of media, MMA media, is that don't give Khabib enough credit. I hear you. He's one of the best, this, that.

Why not you say it like it is? I think he's the best lightweight of all time. We just all give him a round of applause and just say it. I don't shoot the big deal is. Anyway, I want to know you guys' feedback on that. Let the marathon continue. Yay, yay. I mean, could he be,

was he listening to E40 in the background? Dancing some hyphy? So, I don't know how to compare it. We're not talking about the greatest. We're not talking about the greatest. We're not talking about best. So there's a big difference. What is the difference?

Greatest, I think, you know, comes down to a lot of achievement, right? Like, I would say the greatest lightweight is probably still BJ Penn, maybe. Because he won two titles and two weight classes. Because he won two titles and just achievement-wise. But skill-wise, I think, you know, it comes out with time, right? The longer we're in this game of MMA, like, the harder it is for the old-school guys to, you know, stay in that. chart of being the best, obviously just because of MMA innovations and whatnot. But is he the best?

I think the moment he fights Tony Ferguson, that's the moment we find out. Because if you look at both guys' resumes, they're pretty close. I mean, you could make an argument that Tony Ferguson has a better resume at this point. So here's the deal. In terms of overall skill, he might be. Again, he was lacking and striking. Not as much as people say, but he's not going to join glory anytime soon. So there's that.

I have trouble comparing eras, in part because I haven't thought about the question very deeply, but the other one is that, you know, MMA is so different now than when BJ Penn was its best lightweight. Yeah. I think for me, as I try to noodle this through, the one hold up for me in declaring him, even though this might not even be fair, I'm just thinking, I'm thinking in real time. I need to see him face more of his better contemporaries. The Dustin Poirier fight is important. Very important.

I need to see him fight Tony Ferguson. You know, you beat those two guys, and I don't even know who can. could touch him at that point, right? And that would be, you know, you beat Connor and all everyone else before. And then you'd be Dustin, who is like the best he's ever been, still in his 20s. And then you beat Tony Ferguson, who's in his mid-30s, but we all know what a crazy-ass fighter he is and how talented he is. At that point, you begin to say, well, geez, man, this is an open and shut case.

And it might already be, I guess I'm just thinking the reason why we maybe haven't anointed him as much is just that issue. It's like, let's see him beat the... We need to see more. I mean, he just won the title, like, what, two fights ago? Yeah. And remember, there's times where he had. a rib injury and he was like, oh, I'm going to be out forever and I'm going to come back and blah, blah,

blah. Let's, I just feel like if people haven't gotten on board with it, maybe one, we're sleeping. We could be sleeping. We could be sleeping. Sleeping on high feet because it sucks. Sleeping on Habib, because we're not thinking. The other one is the contemporaries issue. I think that that has probably held him back a little bit.

He's on the verge, though, of becoming the best and the greatest. Oh, yeah. Dude, undefeated at 27 and 0 in the toughest division. in M.A. I think he goes 30. I know he's probably the greatest. I mean, that's just one of the most absurd things I've ever seen in my life. He's definitely the best grappler I've ever seen, probably in MMA. And you could say, what about George St. Pierre?

Yeah, it had a him. George St. Pierre was more of like a submission-based guard passer. Yeah. But in the way that Habib just comes off more dominant. Well, also, Habib has changed best practices. Yeah. Right? Habib is so good that other fighters,

from other divisions, by the way, not just his division, have looked at his wrist control, his passing style. The Dagestani handcuff, right? Who coined that? Because that's been recently like surf. I don't know. Maybe BJJ scout. I don't know.

That's pretty good. And they've looked at that and they've said, whoa, dude, like this is the next level of control. And now you're watching everyone, if not copy him, take a lot of things from him. Like you couldn't do that with St. Pierre because a lot of it was just what he did. Dude, this guy is innovating in a way that almost no one house has in that space.

That is different. By far, the best grappler to ever compete at 155 pounds. Well, that's just BJ Pan, right? So it's like, what kind? Because BJ Pan was the first guy to win the Munjiao's with a guy. It's a little bit different. Like, it is. It's a hard question.

Here's the thing. Yeah, it is tough. There's fans watching being like, BJ Penn really? Dude, if you were not around for BJ Penn's Prime, you- That's why it's so. You just can't imagine. You cannot believe how good he was. You could not believe.

I clearly remember I was a big fan of Diego Sanchez. I've always been a huge fan of Diego Sanchez. Sanchez. This was before I was working in MMA media. And I remember he was killing it at 170 and he drops down to 155. And at that time, BJ Penn was the guy. Yeah. But then you had Diego Sanchez, you know? And then Diego Sanchez gets past Joe Stevenson.

And I really thought I'm like, yo, this is the guy to dethrone BJ Penn. And then BJ Penn destroys him. One of the nastiest cuts we've seen in MMA. And it's just like what BJ Penn was doing back then was unbelievable. So that's why it's just a little bit sad to see, you know, where he is at. now. That's why we talk about it so much. Yeah, but if you guys haven't seen it, go back to UFC Fight Pass and look at some of his title fights back in the day.

I mean... Also, on that card, Frank Muir fought Chuck Congo and it was one of the nastiest overhand punch drop to a guillotine. And then choked them out. One of the best ones I've ever seen. Yeah. It's great. All right, let's talk about a, I guess another lightweight, maybe we'll throw it. I don't know.

Hey, Luke. This is Kevin Collin from Boston, Massachusetts. Fitz. My question for you today is about Nate Diaz. So I'm a huge Diaz brother's fan. It's great to see Nate coming back. But what's really at stake for him in this fight with Anthony Pettit? Do you think he stays at 170 or do you think he goes back to 155 with either a win or loss? Thanks for taking my call.

And I love your work. Thanks. This is a weird one because I don't really have, I can't really say for certainty. What's at stake for him? A title shot? Nate Diaz? Maybe. I don't know.

Nate Diaz? Yeah. Yeah, we've, I've talked to some people close to Nate. The sense I get is he does want to compete. Do you see what he put out today? No, but I did, well, I see it. I saw it pop up on Twitter, but... UFC put out a highlight vid.

It was cool vid. By the way, this is just so funny. If you guys didn't see this, so UFC put out a highlight vid of him, you know, saying cool things, he's just a cool guy, saying cool things and whatever. You know, and the ninja stuff, that a whole bit, saying he's back.

And Nate reposted. it because it is a cool vid. Yeah. But then goes, I never left. I never went anywhere. I wasn't gone. Which I thought was kind of interesting.

So here's my thought on this and talking to folks close to him and getting a sense of like what they're thinking. He apparently Nate wants to be active. Like he wants to fight a bunch. Hopefully that's the case, man. No, no. They're quite adamant about it. Like they're like in ways you probably won't believe.

Well, I mean, that's one thing that he wants to be active. The other thing is how he does with the UFC, you know, like that relationship is so. damaged. It's so damaged. Hopefully they're at a place right now where we just see a bunch of fights from him. Yeah. So the issue is,

my thought is, if he wins, he's going to look for title shots and or Connor or big fights, like give him a big fight at 170, give him a big fight at 155, just something where it's a great degree of visibility. But I think he's going to be probably

pickier than they're letting on. So I think it's just going to be either title shots and other weight classes, Connor, or something else kind of interesting on the in-between. but like getting in the queue and then just doing what like Saroni does. No.

He's in the moneyweight division. There's no chance of that happening. No, he's not. But they tell me he wants to be active, man. They tell me like he's actually quite serious about fighting on a regular basis. What's more likely? He gets a title shot of lightweight or at Wilterweight? Honestly, whatever.

They try to get him to fight for 170 goals. And they said that they didn't give him a fight against Tyrone Woodley. Yes, they did. Yes, they did. They offered him a fight against Tyron Woodley. And then he put up a demand for how much money he wanted, which, by the way, if I told you, you would laugh at how little it is.

And they said no. So that is the reality. They can say whatever they want to the media, that is a fact. So I don't know. This is the other part. It's like maybe Nate does want to be active. But if you're like the only reason they're fighting Pettis is because the two teams worked it out and they figured it out.

Now maybe he can keep doing that. Like whatever it takes. You might be his own matchmaker for now. I'm like Rich Piano, whatever it takes. Yeah, for it. I just don't know. I don't know what to say. rest of peace rich biana we'll see what happens

all right um another question then we move on to the new batch or actually you know what i'm going to save this question so when i go to call alexander guffs of saying you can you can answer okay because it's more towards you okay so let's talk about um the other questions that we left off last week which are still pretty pretty relevant i think all right it is david sandelball calling from richmond california i just wanted to know what you think the win over Kevin Lee does for Rafael dos años. He was on a bit of a skid, but he looked absolutely great in that performance.

And just wanted to hear your thoughts on how you think it played out and what will happen for him in the future. What's the next for RDA, man? So the good news is he put him back in a winning space, which was important. I don't think he's ever dropped three in a row. A couple times he's dropped two in a row. Yeah. So it was good.

I don't know how much it does for him in terms of, like, bumping him up the queue. He was already kind of third. Maybe he gets some... He stayed third, man. That win didn't really do anything. Yeah, it wasn't a needle mover in that regard. But to me, it was just so impressive.

I've talked about it. I've never seen a guy have this many tough fights in this many weight classes with this many bad weight cuts and not be shopworn. Yeah. It's, like, 36, 37, something like that? I'm not sure how old he is, but it's unbelievable what a competitor he is, man. It's incredible. My thought is like it depends when he wants to come back and who's available.

Obviously, that's the big consideration all the time. Wonder Boy says he's eyeing a fight with Darren Till. I wonder how he might feel about a fight against Dosan... I never know if it's Dosanos or Dosangios. All these years, RDA. So I guess whoever's in that space, I just don't feel like it meaningfully moved him towards a title shot. Tyrone Woodley's probably going to be looking for a new opponent.

That might be an interesting one because remember, he already fought Lawler and beat him. Yeah. So RDA versus Tyron Woodley. is kind of an interesting test as well. Like how, but folks forget this. Tyrone Woodley is a bad Mammajamma.

He's also 37. It's a relevant question to wonder how competitive, how much longer can he be elite? Maybe a little while longer, but we need to find that out. RDA is 34, by the way. I don't hate that fight at all, but it is a weird spot because, you know,

he's ranked third. Above him is Colby, who's probably going to fight Usman next. Yeah, probably, yeah. Then Tyron Woodley, but how, I don't know how bad is his injury? Who, Woodley? Yeah.

I think it's just, I don't think he tore or broke anything. I think it's more like chronic, which means it just takes time to heal. Yeah. So if, depending on how they're feeling, like if RDA wants to wait a few more months, timelines might work out, man. Yeah. I say that's the fight to make. By the way, by the way, and I know, look, I don't like the filthy animals thing that Colby Covington does.

I just don't like it. And I've told him this personally. Yeah, I don't like it. It ain't for me. However, I wanted to send a shout out to Colby because I tried to do something with him this past week. It didn't work out where. Folks don't realize this. As I said before, it's Memorial Day.

Like, everyone's like, oh, I get messages on Instagram. These are very nice messages. Don't misunderstand me. They're like, thank you for your service. I'm like, save it for Veterans Day. Because this is about Memorial Day. This is about those who have died making the ultimate sacrifice. Colby Covington, it turns out, I got a call from the Navy.

They wanted to set some things up. The U.S.O. didn't call up Colby Covington. He called up the Navy. Navy and their public affairs department and asked if he could fly himself to New York for Fleet Week and meet with sailors and Marines who were here as part of that. And they agreed. He didn't collect a dime, paid his own way, lodging and transportation, and met with them on various battleships, destroyers in the street, did an exercise with them in Times Square,

blah, blah, blah. And I come to find out, he's been doing, this is not for Fleet Week, but for various other bases in the area? Yeah. Or in the contiguous United States. He's been doing this for years. They haven't paid him one time to do it. There's a lot of people who do a lot of jibber-jabber

about how much they care about America's armed forces. Just throw an Instagram post. Yeah. And what they do is they vote for people who don't do any reforms for the VA. They don't really know anybody who's ever been in the military. They themselves have never been in the military. They don't know anything about veterans killing themselves and parking lots to bring attention to their situation.

they don't show up to Walter Reed. I've been to Walter Reed. I went to the old Walter Reed. I've been to the new Walter Reed. They don't ever put their money where their mouth is. I don't love everything that Colby says when he promotes a fight. I cannot name another UFC fighter who has ever shown as much respect to our armed forces, both the fallen, the veterans, and the active service members as Colby Covington.

No one else is going to say it because the MMA media never wants to give him credit. I will give him credit. I want everyone to know I am saying this because it needs to be said. Yeah, you got to respect that. Or you don't, but I'm going to. So there you go. All right, let's talk about Kevin Lee. I feel like this question was obviously relevant right after he lost,

but I feel like it's more relevant now because there's some other questions popping up about, you know, where he should be training and whatnot. Hi, this is Justin Collin out of Houston, Texas. Love the show. Since Kevin Lee lost to RDA, where do you feel he goes from here? anyway, love the show guys. Swish a house up in Houston, Texas. Magnificent about his cash.

Let's see. 281-3-0-80-804. Whose number is that, Danny? Who's? 281-3-0-80-pho. I have no idea. Mike Jones. Remember Mike Jones? Still tipping?

Still tipping on fo' fo' fo'os. Nope. Wrapped in fo' fo'-fos. All right, well. What year is that? 2004-ish, five-ish. That's when I moved to the U.S. Is that right? Yeah.

Slim Thug, you don't know Slim Thug? Paul Wall? Oh yeah. Swish your house? Okay. All right. All right. So, I can't remember.

Oh, yeah, it's about Kevin Lee. Did you hear what Rogan said about it? I thought it was actually kind of interesting. We're talking about Brandon Shop. About Kevin Lee, though. Yeah. Rogan's theory, you know, and Rogan's got a full three hours of airtime. So like, like me, I have to do an hour after three-hour show for this.

90% of things I say on my next show are going to be wrong. You understand? Like, it's just not possible. to say right things all the time. And I know that better than anybody, or most anyway, but he did say something I really thought was, I don't know if it's right,

but I thought it was smart and interesting. Yeah. He thinks that Lee just never really recovered, not so much as a human, but as a fighter with the loss to the connection to Robert Follas. Yeah. And that he needs like a guru

to guide him like a Degroofus, or he had specifically noted Faraz's a hobby. You know, Farah's worked with George St. Pierre, who had a bit of a good. a punch you, take you down, grind you out style. Which, hey, like, that's exactly what Kevin Lee does. Now, I don't know exactly if that's what Kevin Lee needs. I'm not in the camp.

It's just hard for me to understand what's missing. Hard to call that a bad idea from Joe Rogan. I actually thought that was really kind of interesting. What did you make of it? Yeah, I thought the same. And look, Kevin Lee is 26 years old, so he's kind of like similar to the Sage Northcutt space where, like, yeah, there's still tons of room for him to, like, make changes and improve and become, you know, a champion.

But, like. He's got to turn. He's got to start making those changes now, man, because 26 and you start getting close to 27, 28. All of a sudden, you're a year or two away from 30, you know? Yeah. So, yeah, it's very interesting. And I'd like to see him go to another camp, to be honest, just to get some new looks and see, you know, and he doesn't have to do a full move.

Just go out there and see what it's like. Remember Sage Northgo was doing that early on? He went to TriStar. I don't know if he ever went to Elbuquerque. He might have. But then he went to Team Alpha Mail. He tried a few spots. Oh, he was also in Florida.

He tried a few spots until he was like, okay, team alpha male is where is that for me. So I'd like to see out from Kevin Lee, some experimentation and, you know, see how he feels with other coaches and other methods, you know? Yeah, I don't know what ails him. It's all it's all. It's all it was weird. Like, like, we know that when his coach passed away, that was big fan. Had to be big. M.A fans always asked me like, oh, what's wrong with their camp?

And it's like, well, the results aren't what they are supposed to be. So clearly something is off. Yeah. But how do you determine that if you're not there to watch the camp? Like, you need to know, unless the camp has, like, many fighters that are all doing incompetently, then I guess you could make a generalization. But, like, dude, his coaches, they're good. Like, Dewey Cooper, that's a good-ass coach, man.

So it's hard to, you know what I mean? It's, I don't. Yeah, there's also a weird one could be a million factors. It's a weird one. We don't know. But, like, we will only know until he starts trying different things, right? Exactly. Yeah, exactly.

Maybe he goes through different, different, different. And he's the same fighter. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. Sometimes I realize, you know what? Maybe I'm best at home. Pettus did the rounds and they circled back to Duke Rufus.

Exactly. So who knows? Yeah. All right. Well, we talked a little bit about Woodley, but let's talk about Loller because he's the other side of the, of that equation. Wabi, Waw. Hey, Luke Dany, Nino from Washington Township, New Jersey. I had a question here for you.

But Tyrone Woodley out of his fight with Robbie Lawler, who do you think should pick up the fight? you think it should be Darren Till Leon Edwards Pan Zanavio I just want to know your thoughts All right so this is a better question for you Because you know me I don't like playing matchmaker that much Yeah yeah yeah

But that one Any of those seem fine to me I never get moved by these questions You know You know I don't have a specific Person I'd like to you know Single off specific fighter But what I would like to say is that

I'd like to see Robbie Loller take one of the young guys. You know what I'm saying? Like with Tyron, Woodley, like, that fight was fine, but I don't think, I think I'd like to see him either against Vicente Lucke or Leon Edwards, like, one of those guys that deserves and, like, needs, you know, a big-name opponent. And look, either it puts one of those guys up as far as, like, them becoming a top contender or we just know what we've always known, that Robbie Lawler's super game and he's still in it.

So, you know, I'd like to see that. So I think I'm more leaning towards the Leon Edwards, Vicente Lucque, those kind of guys. But look, Mike Perry, that wouldn't be bad either. That actually would be kind of fun. All right. All right. You want to talk about Pico or Rosamai Yunus? Pico.

All right. That's more interesting at the moment. Hey, Luke and Danny. This is Kurt from Connecticut. My question is about Aaron Pico. It was recently announced that Aaron Pico had switched camps to Jackson Wink. He's also coming off that bad knockout loss, Henry Corrales. And it seems as though he's already signed on for a fight against Adam Bullock.

He's like 12-0, Sudd Prospect himself. What do you think about the quick turnaround for Pico, especially after the camp switch? I figured he would have waited a while. Thanks, guys. Love the show. He'll have the great work. This is one of the most interesting stories in MMA right now. I feel like it's been almost, it's been about six months because he lost in January.

So I don't feel like it's that quick of a turnaround. The only thing I would say it's kind of quick is the fact that he switched camps and all of a sudden, you know, right after the news broke that, you know, he's now with Jackson Wink. You know, now he has a fight lined up. That's, I guess that's the only thing I would say. But as far as recovery-wise, from a knock-up, it's been six months. I feel like, that's a good amount of time, no? There's been a criticism of Jackson's that I never shared. I mean, every camp is not perfect,

and so there's always one thing or the other you could say. I remember when John Jones went over to Jackson's, and they had said they had taken the fun and spontaneity out of John. So, for example, John did all these incredible spinning elbows and whatnot. Right, yeah. And he said he learned them from YouTube, you know. And they were, he had used them to great effect in fights. In fact, it was that spinning elbow that ended up being a bit of,

of a Hail Mary in the Gustafson fight that probably saved him in that fourth round. And so there is something to be said for letting a fighter be who they are. On the other hand, the reason why that criticism is hollow to me is because you just can't argue. You just cannot argue that John was a better striker when he walked in the door or that that was a better style for him long term than what he has now. He has such command of the fundamentals.

and what I mean by that is the most important parts of the game. I've talked about it ad nauseum on the Monday morning analyst that it was such a massive benefit from him. Now, is there a case to be made that maybe they could have kept some of the funner parts of what he was doing as a more honoring his natural instincts? Maybe you could make that. But in general, what they took was a sort of wild animal

and they refined him into a very sharp sword. Pico, let me finish. Pico seems like the guy who could really benefit from that. He seems like a guy who's got every bit of ability in the world. Do you ever met Aaron Pico, by the way? No, no, I have not. Maybe the nicest guy in MMA. That's saying something.

Yeah. Super nice kid, devoted, just wants to work and be good. And I did think Antonio McKee was a super underrated coach, but maybe not the right one for him. He needs somebody that's going to take that wildness and refine it, sharpen it, remove some of the more toxic elements of it, it and turn him into a sharp sword.

That's what he needs. To me, you know, moving to ATT, I'm sure that would have been good. Moving to AKA, maybe that would have been good. I could have thought of no better place for him to go than Jackson's. Yeah. Yeah, I agree with your assessment. But do you think this is a quick turnaround for him? And also, what do you think about his opponent?

Adam Borix is legit, man. He's undefeated. Yep, he's a good part. That's the only part that I'm like, well, I would have liked to see your work on your game a little bit more. Yeah, I don't like that part. I'll be honest, I don't like that part. But the move to Jackson's, it's not just the move.

It's the right kind of move. That's exactly what he needs. So hopefully he's had enough time to acclimate. We'll see. Yeah, we'll see. But I would like to see him against just donked at this point. Yeah, he needs a tune-up. He needs a tune-up.

Adam Borix does not a tune-up. Nope. So. Yeah, I guess we'll see what happens there. All right, let's talk about the fans. This is a bit of a long question, so I'm going to have to cut it short, but da fans. Hey guys, this is Chris from Glendale, Arizona.

Hey, just wondering if you guys have sensed a falling interest among the hardcore fan base. I've been watching the UFC since 2007. I've been concerned myself a hardcore fan, watch every hard, every weekend, get all the paper reviews, that kind of thing. I just find myself losing interest. A couple weeks ago, the first time I didn't watch the prelims. Then last weekend, I didn't watch a prelim, but I was going to go to a bar. to watch the fights and just kind of went down the card,

and I just didn't find it that interesting. And even this weekend, I won't watch it. Just finding myself losing interest in it. I think obviously the oversaturation is a big thing, but even the stuff with Connor McGregor. I mean, I don't even really care if he ever comes back. Just kind of a side show to me. Yeah, I'm going to hear.

First of all, I really don't believe him that he doesn't really care of Connor McGregor comes back. I guarantee you. But the point is he feels that way right now. Sure. I agree. In the end, he would come back. Because of all this, you know, business stuff and like, you know, all the waiting.

But when that man has a date and an opponent, this caller is going to buy the pay-per-view. Okay. So how do you feel about his question? I feel like I think there is a misplacement of perhaps the words we're using as far as, like, hardcore's losing interest. I still think the hardcore fans are, you're always going to be, for the most part, a hardcore fan. I just think there's so much MMA now that you just can't watch all of it. So you're going to pick and choose,

but don't feel like you're not a hardcore if you're not watching every single event. You know what I'm saying? I think we should just call it what it is. Yeah, of course the hardcores have left. I've been doing this long enough to know exactly that's what's happened. And I've been watching, well, I didn't see until UFC 4. I was in Blockbuster, so I had missed the first 4 or 5. And then I cycled back around college, so let's say 2001 or so,

and then really got into it around 0304, and then started writing about it around that time. Well, a little bit later. But you get the idea. So, like, I was there pre-Tuff Boom and then post-Tuff Boom. All the people I watched MMA with all are gone now. They're all gone. And a new generation.

My brother was a huge fan, and he doesn't really watch. So then a new generation came with Connor and Rousey and John Jones. John was a bit of a bridge, but certainly with Connor and Rousey, they all came, and they're cycling out now, too. So the question is, who's going to be the next one to bring that up? I don't know the answer to that. But yeah, dude, the UFC, folks don't realize this. The UFC used to have a product where they didn't want you to pick and choose. If it was a UFC product, they wanted you to watch it.

And eventually they said, we don't really care. If you can pick and choose. In fact, Danny White was explicit. If you don't like it, don't watch it, which doesn't seem with the best sales pitch, but it's the one he made. And so the fans listened, and they tuned out. There is just no doubt about it that we have lost two generations of fans. We've since replaced them with some other ones. And it's gotten more mainstream.

And I think as a consequence to a degree more accessible. But yeah, dude, being a hardcore fan in this sport, you are asked to do a lot. A lot of your time, a lot of your money, a lot of your bandwidth. And people burn out and then they leave. And oftentimes they don't come back. We just replace them with a new generation. Yeah. So what he's talking about, I have seen, it's like the Matrix, the Neo was the seventh anomaly.

I have seen that anomaly several times through. This is the natural process. I just keep watching because this is how I pay my mortgage. But I've been burned out on MMA for years, for years. I find different ways to entertain myself. I love the breakdowns. I love the big fights. But yeah, dude, it's designed to burn you out.

So people get burned out. Yeah, I feel like we need to redefine. what a hardcore is because I feel like some people might not feel like, oh, I'm no longer a hardcore because I'm not there watching every single event. It's kind of impossible to watch every single event and keep up with all the news. I mean, I do this for a living and there's times that like, you know, I miss news and things. You know, it's just like, there's so much going on. He's talking less about a classification of the caller, I'm assuming.

Yeah. And more about his own personal burning design. Dude, there were times where I just couldn't sleep at night thinking about the next day's fights. I sleep like a baby these days. well, except for my baby. I slipped like a baby. But you get the idea like, yeah.

You know, okay, when, you know, if John has a fight against Cormier, I will be thinking about that for weeks. Or, you know, something else like that, you know. But the point being is, dude, you have to call up, we cannot sugarcoat this. Absolutely, generations of fans

have been burned out of it. The UFC's idea is, let's just dump the guts on the, on the, let's dump the guts on the white owl and then just, you know, restock it. That's just the whole.

Yeah. That's a whole idea. But I feel like we're also speaking about the moment. Wait until those summer fights roll out, man. Because we got some really good bookings coming up. Yeah, but all of a sudden. You don't buy them. You don't buy that they've gone?

No, yeah. Yeah, 100%. I mean... Some come back intermittently. Yeah. New generations come. Yeah. But like, dude, all the people I used to have UFC parties with,

they don't... Not only do they not come over, they don't watch MMA anymore. Yeah. That's a real thing. No, yeah. I agree with that. It's true. But when a big fight rolls out,

if you're a hardcore and you're a fan of them, or at some point you were a fan, you'll come back. You'll come back. You might not be there for the, you know, UFC on ESPN Plus cards, but you'll be there for the big fights. And also people always ask me like, oh, do you have a favorite fighter?

I used to when I watched less and I didn't cover it for money. But I'm honestly, I have a, I think I have a more sustainable relationship to MMA now. Before I, like, needed MMA and I loved it. And it was like this thing I was like all in on. And that you can't keep that. It's not possible. So to me, I have this, like, for example,

I have a view that troll culture has overtaken MMA culture. Yeah, it's big. And in particular on social media, I think actually social media has damaged the sport. It's a longer argument I'd like to make, but I really believe that. So all of these beefs, they're good for the game in the sense that they facilitate

the kinds of actions that make the beast work. Yeah. But they're bad for attachment. And what's good for attachment is, in my humble opinion, you don't have to watch my breakdowns, watch Dan Hardys, watch the weasels,

watch Jack Slack, watch whoever. Falling in love with fighting is much more sustainable than falling in love with MMA. And in particular, the culture around MMA today. Or fighters, because they come and go,

you know? Fighters too. But if you're into MMA, you know, if that's what you're into, like... And they'll break your heart too, you know? Yeah, very true. All right, let's talk about

Stepe v. Cormian. Or should I say Cormia versus Stipey, actually. Hey, what's up, Luke and Danny? My name's Chris. I'm calling from Montana. Great old Northwest. Anyways, my question is, with this Stipe and D.C. fight coming up, if Stipe wins, does that leave a rubber match?

Does D.C. want to try to break the tie, or does he retire with a loss? Does he fight again, like somebody like Inganu or something like that? That'd be crazy to see you, right? I think there has to be a rubber match. All right. guys, big fan of the show. Take care. Yeah, absolutely it has to be a rubber match. Of that

there can be no doubt. Here's what I'm waiting for, Danny. Yeah. What if DC wins again, and it's very close, but, you know, DC wins, I bet you there are going to be people saying there should be a third fight. I'm calling it now. I'm not saying that's the way the fight's going to go. Stepe will sit out for six months and then

we'll skip another contender and they'll make that fight happen. No, thank you. Now, if Stepe wins, rubber match it up. Man, I really, dude, Steepa fans will say that because they're steeped fans. But I think, I think if, if Cormier beats Stepe, it's two in a row, man. It's two in a row. Like, that's done. Here's the thing.

This is what folks forget about the first one. That fight was signed in January. They didn't fight until July. You had six, seven months to get ready for it. And, you know, you lost inside the first round. There was no case for a rematch. People were like, oh, he was the winningest of all time. But at three, which is better than everyone else, I grant you.

But it's not something like, it's not something like, Anderson Silva-like streak. Exactly. And he had tons of prep time and he lost by stoppage in the first round. There was no case for a rematch whatsoever. Now, if you lose a second time where you've had all this time to prepare and think and plot and plan, and you lose that one, don't anybody out there dare say, unless there's like a crazy judging call. And also the circumstances in which this fight is being made.

It's not like he went out there, picked up a couple wins, and all of a sudden you're like, hmm, maybe steep it can beat him, you know? Yeah, he sat out. He sat out. Which is fine. That's his call. Yeah, it's fine. I mean, it was 100% the right call to make because at the end of the day,

he was the guy that got the title shot, right? Well, that's debatable, but okay, I see your point. He got what he wanted, right? Yes. He got, it was a gamble. It was a gamble. It was a gamble. It paid off.

It paid off. So he did, I mean, I guess in my opinion, he did the right thing. But I'm saying, it's like a rose and, you know, on a situation where she gets smoked in the first round. They redo it. It was close, but that, but you're on. had to be champion for a while. Okay, but I'm saying, but they redid it.

And it was much closer to the second time, but Rose clearly ended up taking it. I don't want to hear a peep about one after that. Now, if Stepey wins, then we can figure something else different. Of course. And by the way, he might, because Stepe is really good.

And then all of a sudden, you know, third of five could be, I think it would be the fight to make, you know, his discolar notes, for sure. All right. One more than you want to call Mr. Gustafson. Yeah.

Actually, this is going to be all you. I'm going to meanwhile call Gus. And then, you know, if we need to roll out another one, we will. Okay. What's up, Danny and Luke. This is Clinton from Phoenix, and I just wanted to hear your thoughts on UFC 238. The UFC is literally marketing Tony Ferguson versus Donald Seroni as the people's main event. This card has not one but two title fights on it, and I feel like it's almost disrespectful to Sohudo, Marias, Shevchenko, and I for them to be telling the fans, you should be

more hyped about Ferguson and Soroni than the two fights that are. coming after it that have belts on the line. Why would they go this route rather than just having Ferguson-Seroni headline a card so it could have the spotlight that it deserves? Tell me your thoughts. Looking forward to the show. Love you guys. Thanks for everything you do.

So it's an interesting question. First of all, are they specifically calling it the people's main event? If so, it's a little bit of gimmick infringement from Ariel, but, or not from him, but of him, that they'd be taking from him. excuse me, if that's the case. I don't know if that's what they're doing. I don't pay attention to the marketing. So if that's, I'm a little bit removed from that one.

But hello, like, I don't know that's better than the main event, but it's probably better than the co-main event, at least on paper. Dude, Tony Ferguson is, okay, I mean, he had the interim belt, but like, in terms of like the overall, the lineal belt, he's maybe the best UFC fighter to never hold a lineal belt. I mean, he's an, he's a phenomenal talent versus Cowboy Sorone, who has more wins than any other UFC fighter ever, that is a special contest.

The fact that the other ones have belts, you need to respect that, you need to acknowledge that, they're higher on the card as a consequence. But in terms of your marketing, why wouldn't you go with your strongest hand? That's a much stronger hand as a marketing proposition

than Schivchenko versus I. I don't think it's disrespect. I think it's about what works. We kill the UFC for improper promotion all the time. And yeah, you would want to see them respect the co-mate event enough that those don't get left behind. Okay, fine. But lead with the strongest spear, man, like the sharpest sword. Ferguson, Saroni, right up there, well, it depends in your perspective, a little bit about Sahu and Moraish, but yeah, that's one of the better,

dude, that's a, that's a, that's a phenomenal contest. I would be a little bit upset if they were kind of pushing that one to the back burner. Now, I'd be more upset if they were putting Ferguson versus Serooney ahead on the car. or I say higher up on the card than a title fight, that would be a little bit messed up. But in terms of like a marketing effort, sure.

That's what's going to sell. That's what people want to see. Tony Ferguson, by the way, also deserves some promotion. Here's a guy who hasn't lost since, you know, Holloway and Poirier fought the first time. I mean, it's been seven years or something. Some incredible streak.

in MMA's toughest division. That guy deserves some praise too. So I don't know. I mean, I need to see the marketing material before I can say it's Luke Thomas approved. But like, if what you're describing is accurate, I more or less don't have a problem with it. All right, Danny, what's the word from Mr. Gustafson? Still trying to reach him? All right, stay on the phone with him now.

We're going to get this set up. We don't have much time for a convo because your boy has to get uptown. But we will do what we can with it. So should be fun. UFC Stockholm, by the way, when does the, what's the start time for this? I'm trying to see here. I don't think it's that early in the day.

I think all this is on fight. Oh, yeah. Jesus, main card starts at one. Good Lord. On ESPN Plus. All right, let's go to him now. We have not a moment to waste. He joins us on the phone.

He is headlining this weekend's card against Anthony Smith for UFC Stockholm. It is the one and only mall Alexander Gustafson. Hi Alex, how are you? I'm good, thank you. How are you? Good. Hey, can you pronounce your last name for me? Is it Gustafson? Is it Gustafson? How do you pronounce it? No, like you said, Gustafson. It's good. It's good. Okay. I'll roll with that. Hey, man, how are you feeling in Stockholm this week? We had Anthony Smith on the show.

He said the Swedes have been very nice to him, but have asked him to lose just the same. Well, it's on enemy territory here. So, no, it's great. It's good, man. I'm feeling good, calm, relaxed at a hotel now. Well, it's family back here in town, and it feels great. I'm ready to, I'm ready for some matches. Are you, do you feel like you perform better being at home,

or there's more pressure at home, or maybe a combo of both? No, no, no, it's great to be home. It's a highlight in my career every time I fight here. It's, I love the arena. I love, you know, having family and friends and fans, you know, like, just behind me. And, no, it's great. It's great. How are you feeling after the last fight? Do you feel like you had enough time in between to rejuvenate to, you know, I mean, I'm sure you're prepared.

You're a professional. You're always prepared. But I guess what I'm saying is, men. Are you in a bit of a different space after the camp? Have you turned a bit of a corner to prepare for this challenge? Well, it's a different challenge. It's Anthony Smith. You know, the guy, he's a good guy.

He comes with a lot of fire, a lot of power, and he rushes people. You know, he's a fighter. So it's a little bit of a challenge for me. You know, it's a perfect matchup. It's going to be a very entertaining fight. He's a stand-up guy and I'm a statured guy. And, you know, like, he's a lot of a routine behind him. So he's dangerous in any way, you know, in any situation.

So a true challenge, and I'm ready for it. I'm ready for it. And, well, the John fight is just that's a different story. And I came up short again against him and that's about it. What can I say? Yeah, no, fair enough. Hey, I was looking at some tape on you for the last few fights, Stoblohovich fight, the Tashara fight.

And one of the things that it just sort of looks to me is the case is that, one, you make some good reads, you know, in the middle of a fight. But also, it appears to me that your team is really good about scouting opposition. I wonder how much scouting, like, you know, understanding what you're walking into in a fight you guys do beforehand and what that process is. No, it's a lot of, it's a lot of preparing, it's a lot of studying, it's a lot of planning. and put up a really good strategy, basically. And then I trust my coaches. You know, I trust them with my life. So, you know, it's not even, we don't call ourselves a team.

We call ourselves a family. So, you know, whoever's in front of me, I always going to do my best. and I was looking for that W. Always looking for the W. What's the goal with this fight, right? To get the win. Anything else?

No, I just get the win and take another fight quick. I'm not tired of waiting for and planning and looking for like what's next. I'm just taking my fight with time now. I'm just going to go through Anthony's mate. I want to get the W beat him, beat him and just look for the next. challenge basically and I want it fast I want the next fight really fast just like you know stack them up and go go through them one by one you know and see what the future brings so like let's say what four fights in 2019 oh I don't know it's no guarantees if I can that would be

perfect you know I'm satisfied with three if I get two it's it's too well you know I'm definitely more than just this fight I'm looking for another fight quick and you know I'm you know I'm If I get three fights this year, I would be satisfied. Got it. Okay. You know, we had him on the show earlier. He said something that I thought was kind of interesting. He said, you know, he almost doesn't even care what happens in the fight in terms of a winner or a loss for him. He just wants to perform, like to pull the trigger and throw and be in a fight. I wonder what you make of that.

No, like I said, he said, he's a fighter. He comes to fight. You know, I don't see him as an athlete or. none of that he's just a true fighter he comes to fight he brings he doesn't care he he comes to fight and looks for the finish all the time he's always dangerous he's a lot of fights there's a lot of fight behind him he you know even if i've seen him in bad positive really bad situations bad position is and he's so he's really relaxed he doesn't stress and in a fight a guy like that it's really hard to to finish it's a really hard it's really

hard to try to finish you know you have to be have patience with a guy like this and wear them out and where I'm out, you know. It comes to a decision. It comes a decision. If I get to finish, you know, I take it, of course, but he's dangerous always. Is he similar to anyone else you've faced inside the UFC? Well, you know, I fought a lot of guys with a lot of power in their hands.

So, you know, this guy has also a lot of power in his hands. but what he has that I don't think many has is as seen him just like I said to you before you know he can be in a really bad position on the ground or whatever you saw against John but he doesn't stress it just wherever he ends up he doesn't matter if if it's a lot of heat on him he just stays composed and relaxed so I think that's very very very really good quality to have and I was going to ask about that in terms of his John Jones fight what lesson did you would take away from him about that? It felt like he wasn't really him in that fight.

You know, he was, he was really, really like, he was really, he wasn't that off. Like, he didn't pull the trigger, really. It was just, he stood against the cage and took damage for five rounds, basically. So I don't, I don't take, I haven't looked at it. I also saw that fight once or twice, but it's nothing that I, I, it's nothing that I'm planning in my strategy on or anything like that because because i don't think he he wasn't the same in that fight like he wasn't his other fight like he finished some true legends in the sport and it comes like it comes in like a truck you know yeah he certainly does um by the way

are you undefeated at the ericson globe arena i co-fell it for yeah so far yeah and i will stay like that is it you consider it a good luck charm yeah yeah i love this arena. I feel really good watch from it. I'm planning to stay on the city in this arena, the Oklahoma career. Well, we don't have much time, so we have to run, but I appreciate you stopping by for a few minutes, Alex.

Can't wait to see the fight, and I'm looking forward to see what you have in store in 2019. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that. Thank you, my son. All right, there he goes. Short interview, I know, but it's all we have time for here. Okay, keep sending those tweets using the hashtag the MMA hour. Keep calling

8, excuse me, 8-4 4-866-2468, the MMA hour at Voxmedia.com. Thank you guys so much for watching. Until next time, stay frosty.