MMA Fighting - The MMA Hour: Episode 483 (w/ Joseph Benavidez, Ricardo Lamas, Marc Montoya)

Episode Date: June 3, 2019

On this episode of The MMA Hour, Luke Thomas speaks to Joseph Benavidez about his flyweight clash with Jussier Formiga at UFC on ESPN 3, the future of the flyweight division, Henry Cejudo vs. Marlon Moraes, more; Ricardo Lamas about his bout with Calvin Kattar at UFC 238, his career, the change in guard at featherweight, more; coach Marc Montoya about his pupil Anthony Smith’s big win over Alexander Gustafsson at UFC Stockholm, Smith’s development and future, more We also take your questions on the latest news in MMA on Sound Off and A Round of Tweets Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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So download the app today and get $0 delivery fees on your first three orders. Instacart. Groceries that over-deliver. Service fees exclusions in terms apply. You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network. It is Monday, June 3rd, 2019. And this is the MMA Hour, donks. Welcome.

My name is Luke Thomas. I'm the host of this program. Thank you so much for joining me. Hope you guys had a great weekend. We went into the weekend very quietly. We walk out of the weekend hearing quite a bit of noise, and we're also just sort of getting ready for UFC 238 fight week. So big doings on the show today.

Speaking of UFC 238, Ricardo Llamis will be here at about 1245 or so to discuss his upcoming bout on that call. in his hometown at 1.30. Flyweight, Joseph Benavides, who fights later this month will join us. But what's he fighting for, even though it's a very tough fight, given what's happening in the division. We'll check in with him later on in the show.

Mark Montoya, the head coach of Anthony Smith will be here, Factory X as well. Talk about their big win at UFC Stockholm, plus your calls. As always, 844-866-2468. Your tweets using the hashtag the MMA. hour and yeah we're going to get this first part of the show started like I said I hope everyone had a great weekend I went in there being like I'll be honest I gave Ruiz short shrift and UFC Stockholm I knew that there were big doings in the main event but I was like eh rest of that card for sure rest of the card was eh but um huge storylines coming out of it

okay let's do this we ready back there for all right let's do a round of tweets I think I got this right this time. So this one, when the clock goes up, yes. Unless they put it. Oh, there we go. Right there. So when that hits 4.59, I will go. Okay.

When talking about greatest to never win a belt, would you put Gus in the conversation? People mention Faber, Cowboy Yowel, who are all still active for now and could presumably win one while Gus is retired for now. Yeah, I mean, you have to put him in the conversation, right? Because you could make an argument.

I don't think John Jones, lost the first Gustafson fight, but certainly some people do. Some people recognize it was at a bare minimum quite close. He pushed Daniel Cormier to the brink. Like he gave, poor Gustafin, man. He just came along at a time when there were two of the best fighters ever to live in his division. And he pushed both of them to the brink. Even for other fighters who never won a belt, you look at them in championship fights,

and often they get smoked. Now, he got smoked in the rematch, I suppose. And, of course, Johnson beat him as well. but nevertheless, those two fights, the Cormier fight and the first John Jones fight, they're important. They're really important. I would absolutely make sure he's either at the top of the list are pretty close. Next. Explain the stoppage of the Joshua fight, not doubting it. I just don't know boxing enough. A couple of things. Number one, I mentioned this before. A lot of times what they'll do is they'll tell you the referee will like pull down on their arms on the front to make sure there's like resistance on their arms. They're not like wobbly. If they get that, they'll tell them to walk towards them.

and they have to walk a space. And if you're like wobbly, they'll stop it after if you've been knocked down a few times. A lot of it's just a judgment call. And I think the issue was the referee asked Joshua, are you ready? And he said yes, but he kind of had his arms up. Look at the previous stoppage. He puts his gloves up like this and the other ones. I guess the referee was like, you've been knocked down four times.

I don't like the body language. I'm calling it a day. You can say yes all you want. So it's a judgment call about their readiness and the amount of damage they've already taken. Next. By the way, I have no issue with the stoppage. What do you think about the so-called dad body and its benefits as now two of the very best fighters in combat sports

walk around with some extra meat? I think if it's a right for their body type, that's fine. But would you recommend that Joshua would do it? Right? If you're chiseled out of stone, gaining weight, is that good for you? The question is, and by the way, like Ruiz might not necessarily be at his best right now,

even though he's winning. The point being is not to have, have some kind of infatuation with BMI or body fat percentage, the question is to say, at what weight are you still your most effective, or at least very effective, without some kind of trade-off in training yourself to death. Not everyone's got bodybuilder genetics. People think, oh, if I just lifted all the weights in the world and took all the steroids, I too could be Mr. Olympia. And so you realize that there are people who have incredibly aesthetic genetics already doing all that

stuff too, which case, no, you cannot be. So the point is just to not infatuate around body type and body shape, but there's also a question of, what weight are you optimally quick, optimally, cardiovascularly prepared, optimally strong. And that may or may not include somebody

who's got extra weight. If you're thin and you're a lean gainer, it won't really apply to you. Next. Who is on your dad bodod legends of combat sports mount Rushmore? Fador, Paul Buntello, D.C., Andy Ruiz, butterbean, for different reasons. I guess Roy Nelson as well.

But these are these dad bots? Like dad bot is like skinny fat, right? I don't know. I guess I'll go with those four. Next. Just in the interest of getting more of these. So yeah, Inganu. Yeah, I'm sure he's got a dad bot.

Does UFC 241 do more pay-per-view buys? off the strength of the star power of Nate Diaz and the co-made of alone, then 239 with Jones, Holm, Ascran, and everyone else on that main card. Impossible to know in this new era of ESPN Plus paywalls and everything else. It wouldn't surprise me if that was true, but God only knows, man. God only knows. That's a hard one to answer. Because also, Pettus is great, but it's not like Nate's fighting Connor,

which to me would, of course, be the case. Or Nate's fighting, I don't know. I don't know. somebody who's got a bit of a name other than himself. And Pettus does, but not to the same degree. Next, time we have remaining here. Does last night's Joshua loss show why the MMA promotion model is superior for fans rather than boxing?

Three heavyweight boxers couldn't get out of their own way to make the fight that fans wanted to see. Might be bad for MMA fighters, but the UFC makes the fights we want to see happen. Right. Well, here's a couple of things. The UFC model is typically designed so that they are in alignment with the consumer more regularly. That's the idea. The difference is that it may or may not be in that fighter's interest. And so there becomes a bit of a trade-off there. You would want something kind of in between, right?

You would want some kind of mechanism that would compel them to go, which is what, in theory, let me continue on this one a little bit. In theory, that's what something of the sanctioning bodies are supposed to provide, some kind of either mandatory challenger, some kind of timeline, some kind of stature that people are chasing after, that forces these positions on them. It just doesn't really work that way.

I don't know what that mechanism would be. But yes, like, if you're, like, are you asking me, is the UFC model of matchmaking? Is it more consumer friendly? It's designed to be more consumer friendly. It just so happens to be taking place without any kind of Ali Act, without any kind of union,

without any kind of trade association, without any kind of a lot of things. So it's better for being new to consumer, but I'm not sure what else. It really all depends. But this is why the Reese thing is just, it's such a nice jolt to the system, right? It's so great when this guy comes in

that no one's ever heard of, including, you know, I can't pretend that last week I was telling you how great Andy Rees was going to do. The only thing I was saying was how there was no buzz for the fight, which, by the way, there wasn't, but now there's all the buzz in the world. So kind of funny how that works. It's so great that he came in

and made the promoters pay for that. really, really kind of great. I've interviewed Wilder and a number of times. I don't think Joshua bailed on an interview I was supposed to do, which is common. And Fury did it as well. But every time you talk to Wilder, it's every question you ask them, when you fight in Wilder? Or Fury, when you're fighting Joshua? What's it going to happen?

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then, oh, we're going to offer this guy 40 million to take it. And then one guy goes to the zone and one guy stays at Showtime. And one signs with ESPN and one's with Al-Haman and one's not. you're like, crying out loud, man. Like, seriously, how hard is this? How hard is this to get done? And then Andy Ruiz comes in, short notice,

no one's ever heard of them, at least outside of the hardest core insiders. And outboxes the champ. By the way, do you see the new odds? They have, I think, God, where did I see those? I think I saw them, maybe on Aaron Bronsteader's page,

something like that, on his Twitter account. I can't remember. but they had Ruiz as an underdog, I think, plus 270 in the rematch, and then Joshua minus 350. Here's what I'd say. Wouldn't surprise me if Joshua wins the rematch. There are ways in which he can change his game plan up to deal with some of those challenges that he was facing this time.

There's a lot more he can do. On the other hand, I would not be surprised if Ruiz wins again. Now, he got tagged hard a couple times, dropped in the second. Joshua's a big boy, and he lands, or third, excuse me. He lands Thunder, man. he lands huge thunder. But if you can institute some, like an immediate rematch is an interesting choice for Anthony Joshua.

I guess he needs it promotionally. But I don't know how good that is for his chances. We're going to see. All right, let's go to our first guest here. He has his next fight at UFC 238, taken on Calvin Cater, featherweight. He's going to be his hometown, by the way. Looking forward to the car, looking forward to this fight. Ricardo Llamas, joined him.

us here on Skype. Hi, Mr. Llamas, how are you? Good, what's going on? Hey man, did you watch the Joshua and Ruiz fight over the weekend? I missed it, but I saw the highlights afterwards, and Ruiz looked very impressive with his performance. Right, so people keep saying, oh, the fat guy with the fast hands, but, you know, if you look at some of the details, yes, he does have fast hands, of course. Man, the guy can box, and I mean box, not just punch. Yeah, for sure. It just goes to show you know, muscles are just for looks, I guess. All right. Last thing about this, there is a big debate.

I don't know why, because to me it's not a debate, but there was a debate online. The guy was born in America, but he, you know, boxed for the Mexican team, and they're calling him the first Mexican to win a heavyweight title. What do you make of this debate where he's like, well, he's born here, but he competed for them?

I think he's a dual citizen. How do you weigh these citizenship, nationality identity questions? Somebody who has like, what, you have a Cuban and Mexican parent, right? Parents. Yes, I do. Yeah, yeah. So I can, you know, I consider myself a Mexican, Cuban-American. Obviously, I was born here. I'm not a citizen of Cuba or Mexico, although my dad being a political exile, the children of political exiles are, you know, supposedly considered citizens under the original free constitution of Cuba. But if I already go back there, you know, they could probably

hold me and mess with me. But, uh, You know, there's a fine line between that I think he's just, you know, trying to represent for his heritage, his roots, his blood. He's Mexican by heritage. And, you know, there's a fine line there. He's definitely, I think, in my opinion, representing the United States, but as a Mexican-American. Fair enough.

All right, let's get to your fight if we can. I was looking at your resume today, Ricardo. Do you realize as of March, you've been in a Zufo promotion for 10 years? Yeah. Yeah, that was back in WEC in March 2009. So in 10 years of competing in a ZUFA organization, so let's say the highest level, what have you accomplished that you're really proud of? What is still out there on the bucket list?

The belt is still out there on the bucket list. What I've accomplished so far is, you know, being one of the top in my division, being one of the best fighters in the world in the featherweight division, holding my spot over these 10 years and just continuing to go out there and put on good performances. You know, I go out there and I finish fights. I have the second most finishes in the featherweight division

only trailing the champ by a couple and I'm nipping at his heels. Has the decade gone like you'd expect? If I had to talk to you in your WEC debut and I would have told you your career is going to go like this for the next 10 years, what would you have told me back then? I don't know. definitely, you know, starting out this whole career, it's kind of been a fight-by-fight thing.

I never knew, you know, starting out as an amateur, where I was going to take it, how far I was going to take it. I'm one of these guys who just kind of rolls with it, fight-by-fight. So if you would have told me back down, I probably would have, you know, smiled and laughed and, you know, said thanks for the compliment. You know, we'll see where it goes. What are the turning points? What are the moments you look back on? You're like, this is why I got to the next level, which were the, the, what were those fights, either wins or losses, I suppose, right?

Yeah, I think the one that made me kind of realize that I could take this pretty far was my first professional title fight. It was kind of a local title, but it was against the guy that I have known, you know, through the wrestling community, he was a huge wrestler in high school, would have been a four-time state champ, but a senior year got in a little trouble, could have wrestled the state tournament. Me and him were both coming up at same time. He was undefeated. I was undefeated. It was a fight in his hometown. So I literally had maybe 50 people there and then 500 people were there rooting against me. And I came out with a win and I finished them in the fourth round. So there was a lot of hype around him that he was

going to be the next big thing coming out of the Midwest. And I was happy to shut that one down. So after that fight, I kind of realized that I could take this career pretty far. And inside Zufa. And any one moment you were like, this is why. I advanced to that next stage. I think every fight, beginning with my first one in the UFC, you know, when I first time was UF, I was in the WEC, and then they merged us in. And coming from a smaller show,

you kind of question yourself, and you're like, oh, man, you know, I'm coming from a smaller show, do I deserve to be here? And slowly but surely after every fight I had with the UFC after my first fight, I got a TKO in the first round. against the guy who was in the UFC way before me. You know, he was a vet, Matt Rice.

And then my fight with Cub Swanson, and each fight after leading up, those first four fights in mine were stepping up and level each time. And each time I was coming out on top. And then obviously after my fight against Eric Koch, he was a former number one contender at the time and finished him in the second round. That was another huge one for me that said,

you know, I'm ready for a title shot now. Now, you are based out of Miami still, right? I live in Illinois, but the last month of camp I do down in Miami for every fight. Now, that being said, correct if I'm wrong, we spoke a while ago, I think about a year ago or so. You're going to drive from Miami back to Chicago? How's it going to work? I'm already back in Chicago, so I flew this time. Normally, I do drive for my camps, but I said, screw that.

I've had enough driving. And after my last fight, you know, developing a blood clot on that long flight to Argentina, I think it was coupled with the drive home two days before. So I was like, I'm going to stay away from that from now on and decided to fly down and run a car. So what happened to the birds that you usually bring with you, the parakeets or whatever they are? My dad's taken care of my parrot and one of my dogs. I took one other dog with me that's still kind of a puppy right now, so she got to fly on board with me. All right, fair enough.

Let's talk about that blood caught for a second. How did you know something was wrong? It was the first night I landed in Argentina. I just got done cutting weight. I did a run, sat in the sauna, and I felt something in my calf that almost felt like a small muscle pull is how it started out. And just progressively through the week got worse. Like that next morning, I woke up. I couldn't straighten my leg out.

It was extremely painful to the touch. But I never had that before, so I didn't know what it was. I thought I pulled a muscle running on the treadmill or something. And it just got progressively worse throughout the week. And, you know, luckily it didn't affect my performance on fight night. But then afterwards, you know, the UFC called me and asked if I have any injuries, I want to check out. And I said, yeah, you know, something's up with my calf.

I don't know what it is. So they set up an appointment for me. and when I was explaining to the doctor my situation, he immediately thought it was a blood clot, and I kind of wrote him off like, I don't think you know what you're talking about, Doc. But he was right. He sent me for an ultrasound, and that's what it turned out to be.

And how did you end up getting rid of it? They put me on blood thinners, and they wanted me on it for three months, and I told him to pump the brakes on that one. I talked him down to six weeks. So after six weeks, I had numerous blood tests done. Everything came back clear, so it looks like I'm all right.

Right. Is this a condition that could come back? Like, for example, I had heat stroke once. Once you get it once, you're much more susceptible to it additional times. Are you in a situation like that? I don't think so. Some of the tests I had done were testing kind of my body's propensity to developing blood clots and if I was in risk to develop more and they all came back good. I think it was just kind of the perfect storm, you know, long drive home from Miami, two days later. later long flight to Argentina. I didn't get up at all during the flight because they flew me at night and I fell asleep, a little bit dehydrated from the initial dropping of weight. So I think just all those things put together, just bad luck. How was Argentina, by the way? I've been dying to go.

I've never been. Oh, my God. It's some of the best food ever, man. Normally they flies back real early the day after the fight, but they flew us back at night on Sunday afterwards. So I had the whole day to go. We went to this one restaurant where, you know, know, Argentina is known for their assados, their barbecues, where they just barbecued different

cuts of meat and pretty much eat all day. So we went to a restaurant where that was kind of the theme. It was an all you can eat place. And you just walk up to the grill. They have all these different cuts of meat laid out and you point to which ones you want and they just give it to you. And it was delicious. All right.

Well, I mean, I was already sold on going. And now I, it's on my bucket list, Ricardo. I've got to go. It's just so goddamn far. That's the only issue. How long was the flight? I had a layover in Texas. So it was like two and a half hours of Texas and then another 10 or 11 hours from Texas to Argentina. It's a long flight. All right. Let's do this. Let's talk about the featherweight division. Here's what's happening as far as I can tell. You've got the old guard. And when I say old, I don't mean decrepit.

But certainly the guys who've been there a while. We've got the old guard. And you got this new guard coming in and they're slowly vying for power, the Volcanovskis. There's a beat Magamad Sheripovs. There are many others as well. Moikano. He's fighting the Korean zombie here in a couple of weeks. Do you share that assessment of things? Do you think that's what's happening? Is there this sort of generational shift slowly happening? Yeah, you know, it happens. It kind of goes in cycles. It happens in every sport and the veterans slowly start to get weeded out and then the new up-and-combears come and take over. So this is no different than any other sport in athletics. You know, Father Time is the one opponent that we cannot beat. So eventually he catches up to all of us.

Do you feel like not suggesting this portends victory of defeat, but that's a fair way to frame your upcoming fight with Calvin Cater? Yeah, you know, young up and comer up against a crafty veteran. It's a safe assessment and I'm fine playing that role. You know, I have a little secret. I'm Latino, so we age like a fine wine and I feel younger as I get older through the years and just look better every year. So I'm, I'm a little secret. I'm a Latino. I'm a little bit more. So I'm a little bit of I'm ready for it. Argentina may have caused a bit of the blood clot, or at least the flight, but you had an incredibly important and redemptive win over Darren Elkins.

I'm wondering what that win did for you, especially coming off the Josh Emmett loss. It did a lot. I came off of two straight losses for the first time in my career. Again, that puts you into a deep hole. So getting back on the winning track was important. And then getting a finish over a guy like Darren just put a lot of confidence back in my system. That guy, you know, he's an animal.

and he's one of these guys where you think you haven't beat and he comes back and knocks you out. So it was a great win to put under my belt and just get me back on that winning track. How old are you, Ricardo? I just turned 37, May 21st. 37 years old. All right. So I talked to some fighters. You know famously DC was like when I'm 40, I'm done.

Now, it turns out he didn't stick to it for other reasons, but it was at least part of the way he wanted to frame his. career. Now, as I mentioned, your top 10 at Featherweight, you've got a big fight coming up at UFC 238. I'm not suggesting the end is imminent. That's not what this question is about. I guess what I am asking is, how are you framing, because we had Gustafin retire over the weekend. We had Nick

Heine retire over the weekend. How are you framing how the end will come? Do you have an age deadline, or will there just have to be something happens where you're just like, I don't want to do this anymore? I think, you know, the fire will have to be gone. I don't have an age deadline.

A lot of it depends on my body. I always want to walk away from this sport, not get wheeled away from this sport. So just pay attention to my body, how I'm feeling. My health is number one, especially since I have a family now. And that's what I'm most concerned about. So if I'm still healthy and if I still have that fire in my stomach to compete, I'm going to keep doing that. And certainly there's nothing stopping us.

Let's talk about Calvin Cater a little bit here. A guy who can sort of do it all. Now you have become one of those guys as well. but I'm wondering when you assess him as a threat, tell me what you see. Give me the scouting report. I see a good challenge. I see a guy with good hands.

He's a little bit taller, a little bit ranger. We'll definitely have to work inside on him, not let him dictate the pace on the feet. And, you know, I'm going to test his ground game. So if he gives me the opportunity to take him down, that's what's going to happen. And we're going to see how he fares on the ground.

ground. Any thought about card placement, either now or ever? Like, how much do you give consideration to where you are on the card? I believe you're on the ESPN prelims, if I'm not mistaken. I don't even know where I'm at yet. I check into the hotel tomorrow and I'll find out then, I guess. But no, you know, it doesn't matter to me, whether I'm the first fight or the last fight on the card, I'm going to prepare the same way, mentally, physically, and go out there and do what I have to do. Now, you live in Illinois, you live in Chicago. I mean, Chicago's in Illinois. South suburbs. South suburbs. Okay. So better for you to stay in the fighter hotel than commute from your home? Towards the end of the week, I'm going to stay at the fighter hotel. I think for tomorrow and

maybe Wednesday night, I might just stay at home. But then when I get into that, you know, meat of the weight cut, it's better to just separate myself. And then, obviously, after the way-ins, just get mentally focused on the fight. All right, so let me ask you your predictions here. UFC 240, top of your division. Max Holloway is going to defend against Frankie Edgar. Frankie Edgar, I think also 37 years old as well. What do you make of that fight?

Who do you think is going to win? That's going to be a great fight. Frankie Edgar is a great wrestler, but, you know, Max just uses his range so well and reads opponents so well throughout the fight. I think he might outpoint Frankie on this one. I believe, wasn't it with you where he did? the pointing to the ground and y'all just slugged it out at the end?

When he did that, what went through your mind? You're like, okay. I said, finally, you know, if you look back in the beginning of that third round, the whole round, I keep going like this to try and coax him in. And that's why at the end, you know, if you listen to his post-fight speech, he said that I telepathically told him that I wanted to throw it down because I kept, you know, waving him in. So that's what I was looking for.

You know, I knew he was beating me on the scorecards. just wanted to get some more hits in. So that was a fun fight and hopefully we get to do that one again someday. Yeah, certainly was. All right. Well, I'm looking forward to it. Ricardo Lomas takes on Calvacator. I'm right. It's going to be on the ESPN portion of the prelims. Of course, the main event is going to be at the United Center in Chicago, Illinois. Great catching up with you, Ricardo. And I can't wait to see you fight. Thank you so much for spending some time with us. All right. Thanks a lot, Luke. I'll talk to you guys later. There he goes. Ricardo Lamas. Okay, we need to get to your calls. So it is time now for the sound off.

All right. There he is. Let's see. There we go. What's up, man? The Bigote to my car. How about that? Okay.

How are you, Danny Sigura? I'm good, I'm good, man. Doing well. How about you? I am doing well. I am tired, but what else is new? Maybe sleeping better? Not yet.

They're not, at five weeks, they're not really all that trainable. There's some things you can do to help, but not much. Yeah. So, no. Did you try putting whiskey in the bottle? No, I don't believe in child abuse as a way to rear them. I know some people believe in that. It's not a thing I'm a biggest fan of.

All right, how were the calls, my friend? Very good, actually. And they were very... Concise? Yes, and also, like, the type of questions were very meticulous, and a lot of them geared towards, like, the industry, which was very, very interesting as well. It's not just storyline. So that was cool.

Okay, very good. So let's talk about first some boxing because I feel like that's probably the biggest thing that happened this weekend. And, yeah, let's discuss that. All right. Lucky. Jake from Oregon. What do you think about Ruiz? Hit him with that eight taco combination and just glide out, baby.

El Cicui! Well, I don't know how El Cucui has to do anything with Ruiz, but... So many fat jokes. Yeah. About poor Andy Ruiz. So many. Hey, he's the champ, though. Like,

you know what? Did you go to his Twitter page? Uh, yes. His header picture is a giant Snickers bar. Okay. It's like, it's just a Snickers bar. I mean,

DC embraces. I remember the chicken video. Those guys, I mean, well, like, you literally can't hide it, but they don't try to.

They don't try to pretend there's something that they're not. Also, it's like, once you're the champ, like, what are you going to say? Like,

you know what I'm saying? Like, you're the champ. Dude, I loved watching Ruiz do that to Anthony Joshua. Anthony Joshua was always been a good guy. He's a good role model as an athlete. He's great for boxing. Yeah.

I'm excited about the rematch. I don't know. There was, don't you agree? Wasn't there something truly satisfying to borrow from Snickers about watching Andy Ruiz just knuckle him into the dirt? There was. For me, it was mostly like a big F you to the promoters. Like, that's what happens when you get too greedy.

And you're holding out, holding out, holding out, you know, you know, building these fighters even more and more than they need to. And not making the fights that the fans want to see. So I don't know if, do you think this killed any of the interest between Anthony Joshua and say like potential wilder fight? These people are so stupid. I feel like it did. I mean, the guy wasn't defeated. No, I don't think so at all.

A little bit, a little bit. No. I mean, would it have been better? The intrigue of like, oh, someone's got to lose. You know what I'm saying? Like, the undefeated's got to go. Maybe that. But you already had Wilder catch the draw with Fury.

however controversial that might have been. Draws a draw. It didn't feel like a loss either. I almost felt like a victim. It didn't, but it showed some certain weaknesses with both guys, I suppose, or strengths. I mean, when Klishko fought, you know, Joshua knocked down several times.

By the way, several, I think, there's a lot of guys who have knocked Joshua down, I think four or five at this point. So his chin is certainly a bit condemned in that regard, which is much more important in boxing, I think, in certain ways. Anyway, point being is, no, I mean, this idea that it's not, I mean, look,

would you have optimally preferred to have made the first, fight relatively soon and then gotten a win here as a way to build it. Yes. The fight may have been a little bit bigger. But the reality is you now have Ruiz, this new interesting player in this division. The other fight when they eventually, like people, oh, I'm not going to buy Wilder versus Joshua now. What nonsense? Of course people still will. Will it be as big? No, but your general interest in heavyweight boxing is much higher as a consequence of what Andy Ruiz did. Only in boxing is a cool ass upset. All of a sudden, bad news. Why? Why is it

bad news. It's awesome. Yeah. It's, I mean, all of a sudden, Reese is now a player in there, and I'd like to see him against other guys as well, not just Joshua. Marquez flatlined Pacchio, and then Pacquiao versus Mayweather set all the records. This argument...

That was different, though. Why is it different? That was different. Why? Because that had been teased for so long. And this hasn't? At the end, we just wanted to see it, but, you know, it was still... And this hasn't? You put Fury versus Wild... No, it's still going to be an interesting fight. I was like, you put Fury versus Josh. Yeah, Fury versus Joshua at Wembley.

Oh, it's still going to be big. But the fact that he's no longer undefeated, you know, that does kill a little bit of life. I think that's a talking point that people repeat that will not be borne out by the facts. I don't believe that even a little bit. I don't believe it. Sorry. All right. Let's agree to disagree.

I bet you a dollar. Okay. I have a dollar. If I said two, would you have two? I think that's where I, that's my max. All right. I can get a pan de one of her two bucks at the corner. Those are delish.

So let's talk about this is another boxing question. And then we'll move on to the MMA stuff. This is actually a really, really interesting question. Hi, Luke. Hi, Danny. It's John from Birmingham in the UK, a massive fan of the show. I just wanted to ask you, with Joshua's defeat and the doubt that puts in the air for superfights with Wilder and Fury,

why do you think it is that defeats in MMA don't seem to affect people's careers on the whole as much as they do in boxing. Thanks. Keep up a great way. Well, as I've mentioned before, we've put in mechanisms inside MMA like tapping, which we borrowed from Jiu-Jitsu and sort of made more widely applicable as a way to bring humanity to the game. I think there's a general sense, believe it or not, as savage as MMA is, about the humanity of losses. But we dealt with it with the question from the tweets about the matchmaking model. Dude, there are just way too many tough fights consecutively for L's not to show up. If you have the pick of the litter and you can pick and choose opponents, yeah, you shouldn't

have as many losses. You should have much, much less. If you're forced to take a fight because you can't say no for whatever reason, either money or competition, don't want to get sideways with the promoter, whatever, yeah, you're going to take some else. And so people kind of understand that. Also, by the nature of the sport, like MMA having so many martial arts in them and having so many paths to victory, like the chance of an upset, you know, increases by a lot. So, you know, that's also, I feel like, considered, you know, anything can happen in that crazy sport. Yeah, it's how, like, you can be better,

like, Jacaree is, like, can be way better than you on the ground. You hit him with a head kick, you can then take his back and choke Jacaray out. Like, I'm inventing something. Right. But I, I, once I did a prediction, I got it so bad. It was Mark Bochick versus Mac Danzig. And I was like, no way MacDansig can sub-Marc Bochek. and in a straight grappling match,

I would bet on Mark Bochek 100 times out of 100. The problem was he got stung with some strikes, couldn't defend himself, and Mark Bochek got his back taken, and Danzig won via submission. So, like, things like that are crazy. And, of course, I got chewed up online

for that prediction, which I deserve, yeah, of course. Yeah, also, like, I feel like you, in MMAs, you know, there are rankings, and there's a UFC, you know, as sort of like a league. There's an easier path to the top, even if you lose, there is a path, right? Whereas in boxing, like, you lose and if, you know, you're out, you're out, no matter, you know, what wins you start picking up, you know,

it kind of feels like there's something a little more than just picking up victories with boxing. Yeah, that's probably true. Yeah. I will, with that out of the way, now let's discuss some of the MMA action that happened over the weekend. All right. Alexander Gustafin retiring. Yo, it's Swanee from South Dakota.

And just thinking about, uh, Gustafson and Smith that fight and the fact that Gusifson is retiring off of that and myself I feel I kind of I don't like it I feel like Gusson was doing a lot of good things and I feel like he could still make a big impact in 205 I mean he was moving well he was kind of getting he was getting Smith tired there I don't think anyone can dispute that at the end of those

the regular rounds going into the champion rounds Smith was So yeah that ended a little weird But So this caller doesn't really agree with Gustafson retiring He thinks

What are you going to do? You can argue with him? Gus has a little bit more in the tank Are you okay with him walking away at this point? Yeah completely Yeah right I've seen people before they even reach their prime walk away. Yeah.

I keep forgetting his name, but his nickname was the Ninja of Love. He went on to go pursue, I think, a med degree because it was just something he would rather do. People retire. This I, like, dude, BJ Penn has really warped to everyone's perspective about like when retirement is supposed to happen. He's not getting knocked up. Yeah, it's like he's not getting viciously put into a coma. Oh, gee. Awesome. Well, let's just trot them back out there.

Like, who are the clowns? I think this is a good argument. The point being is. Dude, when you're done, you're done. It doesn't mean you're physically decrepit to the point where you can't even stand up. It means that the juice is no longer worth the squeeze. Someone was like, of course, Anthony Smith wins and people just can't give the guy any credit. Someone was like, well, you got to admit that wasn't the same Gustafsson that fought Jones.

Okay, maybe it wasn't. Here's the point. Halfway Gus still torches 90% of that division to the caller's point. The issue is that Gustafsson has a certain standard for himself. Here's what happens to fighters. They have a goal. And if they don't reach that goal, some of them say it's not worth it anymore. Some of them say, you know what, maybe I just love fighting so much or competing.

I'd like to just keep being active as long as I can. And they find a new purpose. Gustafsson doesn't have a new purpose as it relates to being a fighter. Either he's going to be the best and tell himself he's going to be the best, or this is no longer worth it. And I think that second Jones loss and the Johnson loss and this one was enough evidence for him to say, I don't, I'm not the best. And so if I'm not going to be the best, I don't have any desire to do this.

It's a perfect time to get out. By the way, it's Nick Dennis. Nick Dennis, yeah. Yeah, that was a courtesy of Esther Lynn. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. The Ninja of Love. Yeah.

He got out super early. I didn't know him. Because he wasn't around long enough. He fought in what promotion. Do you get to find the UFC? Huh? He fought in the UFC. Interesting.

Yeah. And so people like, people think you have to be like, you know, Homer Simpson's dad shouting at clouds You can't even raise your arms You're so fucked up Yeah Who are these people that think you gotta be a zombie Before you go

I'm happy Gus is walking away Because I mean remember the war with The war with John Jones Right even the last loss Was in too pretty And the war he had with You know DC as well Like the man's been through a lot

You know And look if you're not in it Like if you don't want to do it anymore You shouldn't do it You know I think it becomes a point A difficult point when like You want to do it

but then your body's not there. I feel like this is the completely opposite for Gustafson. Like, I saw him fighting. I'm like, that's a good fighter. Like, he was moving well. He was quick. He was sharp. He got nice takedowns.

The striking was good. It's just he didn't want it anymore. And I feel like, you know, you don't see that often. Do you know what he didn't want it anymore? You know what? You know what the lesson there was for me? Did you have, was there a moment in that fight when you were like, uh-oh. When he got his back taken?

No. That was. Okay. I'll just say what it was for me. Okay. Tell me what you think about this. you've been in jiu-jitsu. You've been in a position that was bad, but not horrible.

But it wasn't clear how you were going to advance and maybe it was either hurting or fatiguing. And you made a choice to consent to that position at that point. So it wasn't when he had the back. Because if you remember, he had the, for me. Again, I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just saying for me. When he had the back, he was teepeed up, right?

Yeah. It was when he took a knee. That was to me when he consented to having Anthony Smith on his back. And once he consented to that and was no longer willing to actively fight him off, that's when I was like, oh, he just, he just relented to it. And when he relented to it, that's when Smith pushed his head down, banged on him, sunk the choke. That's when everything went from bad to worse in an instant. Yeah, that's true. That was a really bad sign for me.

And also, people don't want to hear it. But, like, you, I mean, you know, this is somebody that trains. Like, the more you go to that, the easier it gets to each time go to that. Because I remember when I first transitioned from wrestling to jihitsu, like, dude, I would, be like about to get like my my, you know, my chin, like, you know, my jaw destroyed by a choke and I still wouldn't tap. And then, you know, then you start getting a little older. You start training a little less. And then, you know, you get put into an uncomfortable situation. You're like, I don't have to be here, you know, I'm up. So, yeah, it's a weird thing.

By the way, on that, you're right. So here's my point about this Gustafson. He's not too damaged. He's not too beat up. And that's exactly what he should be walking. Perfect time to go. Yeah. Perfect. Yeah. Or if he's not ready, he wants to come back, that's fine too.

But I'm just saying, if this is the end, okay. It's the end. Same here. Yeah, I'm okay with it. All right, well, let's talk about the winner of that night, Anthony Smith, and sort of his attitude towards the game of MMA, the way he approaches things. Luke, Danny was good. This is Lincoln, Colorado, the San Antonio, Texas area, where it's hot.

Is there good? Yeah, right, right. But yeah, just wanted to call and ask, you what do you all? What do y'all think about happening? Isn't that a breath of fresh? See somebody so brutally fucking honest. That guy has a class that I just want to know what y'all think about him. Love the show.

And, yeah, keep up the good work, brother. Peace. First of all, my man has been smoking. Yeah, yeah. He's like, what's the San Antonio. Everybody's always like, yo, guys, keep up the good work. As if they probably see we're, like, falling apart. Like, come on, just keep going.

Well, I can show up every time talking about how my rear end explodes and I haven't slept. And my face just looks like it's been hit by a shovel. So probably that's what they're looking at. We appreciate them. Certainly. Certainly. We do.

Yeah, dude. We had Anthony Smith on the show last week. And I have said this, dude. And this is the point. I think people just need to just accept. Look, man, John Jones came out of nowhere, beat Andre Guzmow, and then Stefan Bonner. And then who was the Jake that they cut?

I forget. On UFC 100. What was his name? he beat Heath Haring. The name escapes me. But then he beats Brandon Barrett and Matt Hamill, you know, whatever with Matt Hamill. But you get the idea.

So he just came out of the gate special. He came out of the woodwork just bombing on people. And those are fun to watch a Habib that's 27 and O, for example, you know, just running through everybody. And that's all good and well and that's fun. But dude, Habibs are rare. And John Joneses are rare. Sometimes guys don't have that same kind of athletic skills.

although they can be very skilled. Sometimes they get off on the wrong foot. You know, if you had rich parents and you had a tutor, you might do better on the SATs and you might get into a better college. If you didn't, it might be a little bit harder for you. But if you're smart and you're capable and you're hardworking, you can figure it out. If you don't make excuses for yourself, you can figure it out.

And what happened with Anthony Smith was he got a weird, and I would say, you know, an optimal start in MMA. But he got right with the right coach. He got right with the right weight class. He got right with the right training. And over time, man, he kind of figured it out. He had the back of Volcan Oostomir fight over. He had the back of Alexander Gustafson fight over.

That should tell you something, man. You can say what you want about Rashad and Shogun being kind of at end of their careers. Those guys, he put Gus at the end of his, and Volcan's still very much alive and kicking. So I have deep admiration for the guys who figured out from day one. I have even a greater admiration for the ones who take time. and figure it out a little bit later on because those ones had to really work at it. I mean, a lot of the things that Anthony Smith has been through

would break any other fighter and would just make them quit. Like, you know, this thing is not for me, you know? And here he is, you know, a title contender and each time now proving, I think the doubts of him being, you know, getting lucky with some of his first fights and whatnot and him not being as good as good as the other fighters, I think that's starting to go away.

I think that goes victory was really important. And also just the way he did it, man. He looked good. And also, I don't know if you, you picked this up, but like, he just looked a lot more confident. Like, yes, he improved, and I'm sure there, especially you can pick this up, like, you can look at things that he's doing better than his previous fights. But from an attitude perspective, he just looks a lot more confident.

Like, he's really sure of himself is him being a top dog in that division. And fighting, he's fighting better, too. There's no denying he's fighting better than he did against, you know, I don't know, Tiago Santos, where he was just kind of, you know, ah, he's still fighting rough and hard, but strategically, I would say. By the way, all that talk about, there's no game plan. This is why doing interviews is so weird for me, because, look, man.

You kept pushing that. Because it doesn't make any sense. You know what I mean? Like, I knew he wasn't telling the truth. It's so weird in MMA media where, like, fighters and media just lie to each other all the time. It's this weird thing that I don't quite know what to do with, to be honest with you. I get why he can't say anything because what are you going to do?

You're going to tell me on the air? but at the same i don't know it's so it's weird it's weird i don't i'm mma media is weird sorry it's my view yeah it's strange hey luke danny nino from washington township new jersey how he's doing which had a question here for you so anthony smith looked very impressive which is uh win this weekend over alexander i was just wondering what do you think's next for him in his career uh what do you think you fight you think he'll possibly get another title shot after this John Jones fight Or do you think maybe he'll fight the winner of Jan Blockowitz

and Luke Rothold? I want to get your thoughts on what he takes next for Anthony Smith. Thank you. Love your show. Have a good day, guys. Great question. Yeah, good question. So Campbell and I were hating on this matchup a little bit.

Not from the fight itself, but from the matchmaker. Because, like, look, you win and what's next? But I don't know. I guess once it happened, I guess I feel a little bit different. about it now. Okay. I'd love to see Smith versus, versus Rockwood.

That's the fight to make. Yeah. Then just what... Even if, even if Rockhold takes an L, I'd love to see that. So if you look at the rankings, Gustafsson,

heading into this fight was sitting at two. Smith at four. Dude, I feel he's been at two like forever, two or one. Yeah. So, I mean, now it's probably going to be a bit of a change there.

I bet Santos goes to two, and then Smith probably goes to three, just given that Smith is going to be, or Santos is going to be fighting Jones next. I like the Rockhold fight. I really. really do. I know our own Casey, our videographer, doesn't like putting contenders against each other for very good reasons. I acknowledge the argument is strong, but selfishly, dude, I love

watching contenders fight. When George St. Pierre fought Sean Shirk, I was like, oh my God, or when Sean Shirk, excuse me, when George St. Pierre also fought Frank Trigg, I mean, those were two guys who were like, you know, itching to get back to a title opportunity and they had to fight each other to get there. Dude, it was awesome to watch, man. So to me, it's like, dude, If Smith had a rematch against Santos, depending on what happens with Jones or Reyes or, I don't know. Dude, this guy, did I not call Alexander Rackich? Did I not call him big time? Yeah.

I talked to him on my radio show. The next question, it's about him. I've been telling you, dude, you watched that guy on tape. He's legit, man. He stood out to me immediately. I was like, whoa, he's different. So there's a lot of different. I would say Johnny Walker.

Like, I know Casey, Casey, I know you don't want him to fight. But, dude, I want him to fight because I think it'd be fun. And I know it would be terrible for the division, but I don't care because I care more about my entertainment because I'm selfish. So there you go. How about that? Fair. All right. All right. Well, let's talk about your boy. Dude, huge knockout win over Jimmy Manuel.

That was super impressive. Hey, what's going on? Luke and Danny. Josh from San Diego again. I noticed on the beat you were talking about Alexander Ratchit and how you've been watching him for a while. After seeing that brutal K-O kick to Jimmy Manoa, who would you like him to fight next? and also where do you think Jimmy Maniwal goes from here? He's a staple, always throws down, but he's on a pretty bad losing streak.

Thanks, guys. Love the show. So easy answer. Sarkinov or Krilov or Uzdemir or Anderson. Any of those guys, dude. Anybody sort of eight, nine-ish, and below? I don't have a strong preference. Mano was in top ten, exactly. Because here's the thing about Rackage.

Clearly a ton of potential. Yeah. And there might be questions, but it's hard to ask them because we haven't seen enough tape yet. So what we have seen on tape, like caught my attention immediately. I was like, whoa, he's good. Yeah. I need to see him against other competitions. So any of those donks.

Yeah. Alir Latifie, have him fight him. Don't care. Any of those guys. Because, dude, here's the thing about Rackich. Clearly, he has ridiculous power and speed. The guy can wrestle, too. He can.

People don't realize that he can wrestle, too. Like, I don't know exactly how good he is, but he's pretty good. Pretty good. I'm telling you, there are some guys on tape. You can just look at it and you may not know how good they are. Smith, let's say, three years ago. There are some guys who come out on tape and they instantly, they're like, whoa, whoa.

Rackage is one of those guys. Dude, light heavy weights picking up, man. Slowly but surely, right? And I don't really get too picky with matchmaking until guys start reaching the top. Then that's when I start, you know, my matchmaking brain goes off. But, you know, right now, anybody in the top 10, top 15 is fine. But let's talk about Jimmy Manoa. Clearly, obviously, a very exciting fighter to watch, you know, live by the sword, die by the sword.

But he is quite a skid right now. He's a four-fight losing streak. So what do you think is next for him? And also, he's been stopped three times out of those four losses. Yeah, it's starting to get concerning. Yeah, it is. Here's the thing I mentioned. It's not really that he's losing, which is the problem.

It's that he is almost 40 years old. It's true, yeah. And so you begin to wonder, like, you know, this is not trending in the right direction. professionally. And so the UFC has an obligation to ask about not merely what obligation they have to him as a competitor, but what obligation they have to him as a human, as a, as a person, and his long-term health. So if that means this is the end, then that's what it means.

If that there means it was maybe one more and they match, make him appropriately, I think what they thought was, hey, we're going to give you an unranked contender. Problem was they gave him maybe the best unranked contender. And you can clearly tell you, clearly see, excuse me, he should not be unranked contender. ranked anymore. So, um, dude, you gotta have tough,

you gotta have tough conversations. Yeah. Here's the, here's the thing I walked away from. Didn't you feel this way watching, dude, it would hurt to watch Gustafson go. It hurt.

Dude, the ending in this game, everyone, everyone sees St. Pierre's presser and they think, oh, gee, what a, you know, it's sort of a bittersweet. Dude, most of the time, it's just bitter when these guys retire.

It's a awful end. It's not like some of these other guys where they've reached glory in the sense of, you know, championship glory, and then they fall off and then they retire at some point. You're like, man, that's a fall from grace. Gus was so good, but as you said, he came in this era where he's literally in the same era where two of the best fighters in the world, pound for pound, are in that same division. And, you know, I think he if he would have came, you know, five years earlier or even five years from now, odds are he probably would have been champion. So you know what this guy's been through and he's come close, you know, so close so many times. And, you know, also to leave the

way he left on Saturday. It just hurts. This sport's very unforgiven, man. It's sad. You just, dude, most of the time you walk away on your hands and knees. Yeah. It's awful. It's so awful. But that's the game they play, you know? Yeah, that's the nature of the game. Everyone thinks they're going to beat it and some of them do, but most of them don't. It's really hard to watch. I hate it. Yeah. All right. What do you want to talk about next? Possibly what happens to the Flywood Division if Sehudo picks up a win at USC 238. Illegal streaming or paywalls in M.A. Pick your poison. Which one do you like best? I'm letting you pick.

Which one do you like best? Legal streaming, man. I'm just kidding. The paywall question. What's it about? The paywall is interesting. Just, you know, there being a lot of paywalls now with the zone. Obviously, you know, ESPN Plus, fight pass, etc. You know, just MMA going behind a paywall. Let's try that one.

All right. Let's do it. Hey, Luke and Danny. This is James H. San Diego. My question has to do with the new paywalls that seems like all the new major companies are putting the sport behind. It seems like it's kind of, I don't know, you don't have to pay to watch the NFL or Super Bowl, but it seems like every fight you want to watch, you have to pay for these days.

It seems like it puts a major ceiling on the growth of the sport. I don't know. Just wonder what your thoughts are on that. Thanks. Love the show. Paywall, putting a cap on the growth of the NBA, you think? Safe to say, yeah. Yeah, for sure.

I'm somebody who has a radio show behind a paywall. I know exactly what the challenges are like. It hurts visibility. There is no denying it hurts visibility. So, for example, there's a free listening weekend. I'm not trying to do a cheap plug on my other job. I'm just trying to make a point. They get after us to promote that because it's your chance to just be like to peek behind

the curtain and see all that's there to get money from you. Here is basically what's happening. This is true for all media. including MMMA media, but also media content in the case of what the UFC is producing, right, video content. Everything is going to go behind a paywall. Yeah, that's... Everything is going to go, slowly but surely, which is going to make some things more sustainable, but it's going to make them a lot less visible.

Basically, here's the trade-off that MMA has decided to make. This includes the majority of the top promoters. They have decided they would rather be... And this includes one, includes Bellator, includes UFC. They are operating on our... a freemium model, but they had basically decided that it is better to have long-term sustainability by having shared risk with other entities. So that includes Siri A, whatever else is on ESPN Plus. We'll all share the risk here. We'll be a lot less visible. But if we can generate

enough income, we can do this for a very long time. That is the trade-off. That is what they have decided to do. And probably for good reason, because there has been a great deal of volatility in the promoting market for UFC and for MMA. And MMA media is the same way they had the launch of the athletic. Yeah, they got a great team there. But the bet is that if you put enough great content behind it, whether it's MMA, boxing, but also NFL, MLB, whatever, that you'll have reduced visibility. But there's this shared pool that if we all work together, we can sustain this.

And whether that ends up true, we'll have to end up, we'll have to see. Right. But that's ultimately the idea. That's how serious XM works, my other job. There's Howard, there's NFL, there's music stations, there's talk stations, there's MMA, there's, I think they have 34, 35 million subscribers. That sustains everything. The tradeoff is that unless you pay for it, nobody hears it.

Exactly, yeah. And that's just the way everything is going. Like when the internet first started, you know, becoming what it is now, right? Like the internet we know now, everything was free, right? And for a few years, we realized that didn't work, especially in media. And advertising based. Yeah, advertisement. went down with the internet. And now, you know, we're everyone's trying to find new ways to,

you know, go behind a paywall because it seems to be the most sustainable model. I mean, here's the thing. Facebook and Google have eaten all the ad money. Yeah. And so as a consequence, people are saying, well, what are ways in which we can do? And look, you can do both. You can have partly free content. You can have partly paid content. You can have, there's, there's different ways to package everything together. No one really knows exactly what the answer is. some players have it worked out in either medium. But basically what MMA promoters have decided is, we'd rather have guaranteed rev, share a risk, go behind a paywall, and live,

rather than biggest audience possible. I recommended, I don't know if you saw it. There are questions to be asked about how much bigger can MMA get in the U.S., you know what I'm saying? And I think the UFC factor that in when going behind a paywall. Last thing on this, because what's the word with Benavita? Is he coming on here? I'm about to call him.

Do you want me to leave you with a question? Yeah, no, no, leave me with a point I'd like to make. make. Okay. And then we'll... So we can sign off here with me? Yes. Sign off with you. Good job. And I want to make a point. So go ahead and get Mr. Benavides, if you can't, please. What I wanted to make was, if you guys didn't see, Jimmy Patero is the gentleman who runs ESPN. He did a podcast with Peter Kafka of Recode, which, by the way, on all disclosure, is a Vox property.

Anyway, so the old head of ESPN was John Skipper. John Skipper now runs DeZone. Anyway, so Jimmy Petaro was the new one. Patero, I'm not sure he pronounced it any. more. But in any event, Jimmy has sort of talked about a lot of things about what his vision for ESPN is. He talked about ESPN Plus and what its value proposition is, UFC content, what its value proposition is. But what was kind of interesting were sort of two different things I picked up on. One was, he said what really matters for the other leagues, now not UFC, but like NBA or MLB or NFL because he was asked, you know, what's the likelihood that those guys sign with a Google?

what's those guys that likely they sign with a Facebook for their like television deal? And his answer was probably low because what they really value is widest audience possible. But what if you don't value widest audience possible? Then you're much more amenable to a potential streaming deal. So that was kind of interesting. So he liked ESPN's value proposition in the future to acquire NFL rights because they are one of the ones who can offer you a niche more directed to consumer platform in ESPN Plus or this big. you know, ESPN ecosystem if you're the NFL. The other one that I thought was kind of interesting was,

I mean, he says it outright. He says it will have no effect on how they cover the sports, which is just not true. It absolutely will. But he's like, you know, we're really big on access. What they want is access, access, access, access, access for everything, for basketball, for UFC, for Major League Baseball, for NFL, for everything. They want to be in touch with the athlete, blah, blah, blah.

And his point was how important that was. And then he was asked, like, won't that impact how, like, investigative arm works. And he was like, no, it definitely won't. Of course it will. Of course it will. And by the way, people have detected, at least in the basketball side, you know, that they take a bit of a softer approach and that the leagues trust them to do things. So this new ESPN is about working more in concert with the leagues providing the direct-to-consumer aspect if that's what they prefer, giving a broader reach, if that's not what they want. So if you guys didn't see it, I tweeted it out should be my Twitter page, but you can just go to Recode is the name of the, is the site,

it's against a Vox property. And Peter Kafka did it with Jimmy Pitaro. All right, so we're going to get, I think Joseph Benavides here on the show here just a minute. He is, he's got a big fight against Juic R Formica coming up. But dude, what a weird time for the flyweight division. What a weird time for him? You know, it's like, I hate to even ask these questions because I know that he's probably dealing with the uncomfortable reality of it all, but how do you not ask him because they're just so relevant. So let's go to him now. He is just one of the stalwarts of the flyweight division.

The one and only Joseph Benavides is here. Hi, Joseph. How are you? What's going on, Luke Thomas? How are you, man? I'm doing well, my friend. I am nice. It's nice to get in touch with you. Let me ask you.

Can you pan up a little bit? Because I can see your nose and mouth, but not your face. Yeah. Is that better? That is better. A little bit better. Yeah. Okay. So let me ask you, if I can.

You've been with the organization now, well, Zufa backed anyway, a little over 10 years. We had Ricardo Alamoson, same position for him. If I had told you you'd be in this position in 10 years, what would you have told me back then? We're working for. You know, it's still a surprise kind of every day when, you know, you see ads on ESPN and even your name and stuff like that. ESPN in the backdrop. So it's still a surprise, and it's one of those things like you're grateful for, but you also, by being grateful, you realize, like, you've worked hard.

And that's kind of what keeps you working harder is like, you know, it's not all in vain. You're not just like, oh, my God, I'm in the same place. I'm in the same place. Like the sports growing, I'm growing. So, like I said, it's one of those things you never would feel entitled or deserving of something like that. But when you do do it, it is almost a gratification of, like, man, we work really hard. Like, this is what we always dreamed of, you know, it's fighters and I'm sure even media, like, for this thing to be really, really mainstream and talked about the way it is and shown the way it is on major sport networks.

And, like, here we are. So it's one of those things you take in and you really just inspire you and let you know, keeps you grateful, keeps you grounded, keeps everything in perspective that you come a long way. All right, I want to talk about your fight with Juicier Formiga in just a minute if I can. But of course, this weekend is a bantamweight fight with flyweight champion Henry Sehudo and Marlon Marisch. Let me ask you, what's better for you if Henry wins or loses this bout this weekend? Anything? So I'll make up a story, man. Like, if he wins, I'd make up a story how it's good.

And if he loses, you know, I'll make up a story how it wins. But I think that's just a good thing to go through in life, like looking at something and being like, there is a good. of it. So for me, it's like if he wins, it's really good for maybe not me as an individual, but in a greater sense, the flyweight division. He goes and beats two amazing Bannam Wates, but for the future of the flyweight, you don't know what's going to happen because now he's a Bannamweight champ. So there is some good there, but I think he would obviously be pushed to defend his flyweight title if he became Bann & Wade champion, too. So who knows what good would come out of that, but that's the good for the flyweight division. On the individual basis,

which that's probably what I should worry about, is if he loses, then he's a bannamweight champion. Flyweight champion still, you know, his shot fell to being a bannamweight champion. He has to go defend his flyweight belt. I'm right there waiting for him when I get through for Miga. So that is a best case scenario on an individual basis. He loses and has to defend his flyweight title, which, you know, he should have been doing in the first place. It's a weird time for flyweight. It's a weird time for you because here you are at the top of this division. You're on the precipice of a really important fight.

And yet it's hard to know exactly what comes next. First of all, what do you make of the fly weights who got cut, Wilson Hayes and others? Your division and women's featherweight, I believe, are the only ones without a complete listing of the top 15 at this point. The rankings, but I knew we were, I knew guys were falling out like nothing, like crazy. I couldn't think of the right term falling out like something. Anyway, but yeah, they were falling everywhere like flies, I guess. So I didn't know how many were left, but I saw guys kind of moving up in the ranking, and all of a sudden they're like eight and nine, and I'm like, oh, wow, it seems like there

might be only like 10 guys in the division, period. So it got kind of weird there, honestly, for a second, but it almost seems like it's cooled down, at least the talks and the cutting, and we're still making fights. And at first I thought, well, it's guys that are losing, they're leaving, and they don't have a really say on their contract. Like, that's how the contracts work is. You can't get caught off a win, but you can be forced to move up off a loss and be cut off a loss.

So to tell you the truth, on the inside, I was having fly weights coming to me and telling me they are being forced and given options that either they go up or they get cut, which that's not an option. That means you're going up, right, or you're getting cut. So that was kind of weird. But now, you know, after Dana said, me and Formiga are the number one contender fight, that was kind of a big sign. And I was like, all right, well, if we're the only two left, we kind of have to be. But then they go and make two other fights with Figurato and Pantoglio and Figurato's coming off a loss.

He still has a fight. And then I think they made another fight with another Brazilian and he had lost. So, you know, they're still giving guys fights that lost. So I'm just looking at the next thing. The division's there, and there's a said number one contender fight that I'm a part of. So that's kind of what I look at. It's kind of hard to react to anything until it really happens. So what's happened is me fighting in four weeks for a number one contender fight.

Yeah, I mean, you seem like a grateful guy no matter what. So I'll ask it this way. Is it a fine reality? If you beat up, you beat Juicy Formiga, you become number one contender, you end up fighting for the flyweight title. and maybe the flyway division is just a smaller division, but it doesn't go away. Is that cool? Yeah, I mean, I think as long as it's one of those things where, like, I beat Henry for the fight, for the title, because he's the best guy, right? And he's proven he's the best.

You know, he's an incredible competitor beating T.J. You know, he's fighting Marlin, beat DJ. I want to prove him the best flyweight. Like, for instance, it wouldn't be that great for me if, say, Sehudo stayed at Bannonweight as a champion, and I beat someone like, I'm the best flyweight, but I'm just the best flyweight that's there now. You know what I mean? Like, I really want to beat someone that's the best right now, which is Henry, proved that I can beat him again since I already haven't went over him years ago, proved that I'm still there and I've improved just as he has. So, yeah, I mean, the reality would be fine. You know, as long as I'm fighting the divisions around and there's opportunity for guys like me. Like that's a lot of the picture I look at. Like when the flyweds are leaving, I'm like, I have a really amazing life. Like I'm talking to you, you know, and doing a lot of cool stuff.

I'm in a pretty nice car, like got a house and stuff and a wife. And I just look at, there's guys like me everywhere that, like, might not have the opportunity to have that through professional fighting. And that, like, bums me out like crazy. Like there's another me somewhere, and he's not going to have the chance to do that. So, you know, I'll just be happy the divisions around and guys are getting jobs. And, you know, athletes are getting what they've earned. I asked this question in all good faith. Like, what do you expect to happen this weekend?

I'll be truthful. I, you know, I never thought Henry would beat T.J. I thought T.J. would run through him. And then I was totally and completely wrong. At the same time, though, man, Marlon Moraich is a tough customer. My God, the things he is doing at Bansom. weight are scary. What is your sense about how that fight goes?

Yeah, I mean, to give him the advantage that it's at his weight, you know, he's a big Bannamweight already. He's been terrorizing people at Bannamweight. Like, it was kind of the same thing in the T.J. and Henry fight. Like, I really did give Henry a somewhat of an advantage at flyweight because that's his weight and T.J. is the one making the adjustments. But on the same token, I probably would have to give T.J. the advantage of Bannum weight. So you kind of have to give Marrard.

the advantage it being his division. That being said, Henry has done nothing to prove that he doesn't perform in big fights, you know, DJ, T.J., you know, Olympic gold medalist. So he's done nothing to deserve our doubt, you know, that he's going to lose. He hasn't shown anything in competition, high-level competition, that would make us think otherwise either. So the only thing you can really look at is, hey, you know, he's fighting out of his weight class and Marlins and his weight.

weight class, you know, you can say all you want about, you know, how good they are and skills. We all know that. So you have to look at kind of like, all right, we know they're both, you know, world beaters and amazing athletes and killers. So you just kind of have to look at some of the practical things like you take two really good guys, you know, and one guy's a little bigger. You know, he might have a bit of an advantage. Let me catch up with you. What is your training situation like these days? How do you arrange your camp? Las Vegas. I work a lot out of the UFCPI. for like strange and conditioning. It's kind of like a home base to hit mitts and stuff.

But along with that, my home base, as far as bodies, a team, coaches, and community go. I'm at Extreme Couture as well. My coaches are Eddie Barocco and Casey Hall said one out of Tenth Planet. And Eddie is just like my coach, not really affiliated with the gym. So, like, I'm leaving Extreme Couture right now, but I'm going to the UFC Performance Institute. And then later in the week, I'll go to 10th Planet. to do some jiu-jitsu with Coach Hollsted. So, yeah, it's a little different.

I think in Vegas people are, you see it a lot with people, is you're left to be self-motivated and accountable here for your own schedule, which that's great because it is an individual sport. And I've been part of a super team for so long that I didn't make my own schedule on my own time and my own coaches. I was just, this was the coach, this was the time, these were the partners. Here in Vegas, being a veteran and what the UFC PIs allowed me and just what my accomplishments in the past have allowed me

is, you know, I can get guys and, you know, spar with two guys, not a mat full of 50 guys, or I can get one coach and have him run a practice for me because I have a facility like the PI to do that. So I wouldn't say I run my own thing, but I arrange my own schedule and then my coach is more lookout for me from there. So it's kind of cool. I think it's the way MMA is kind of leading to, kind of doing your own thing, but I always have a team.

I have bodies and a great community around me, the extreme couture and the UFCI. But like it's one of those things in Vegas here. You have to be self-motivated. There's definitely no one, you know, staying on you and stuff every day like you're in one place. You know, you got to go make all your rounds. And good for me.

I've never had a problem with being self-motivated and taking care of things myself. I like being my own person. How did you decide that those particular coaches in this arrangement was the right one, given that there might be other options inside Las Vegas. Back to Vegas. Fourth or eight, nine years training here and there, you know, but doing my camps in Vegas, you know, did a few camps in Denver. I tell people when they moved down, I'm like, hey, you can practice 10 times a day in Vegas.

Like, there's that many, there's that many credentials. There's that many things to do here. There's that many coaches. There's that many classes. But you can also practice no times because. you know, you're not going to have someone here like, hey, where were you in the gym today? Because you could be somewhere else. You can get away with that stuff too. So it's a hard thing, I think, for some people to adapt to.

For me, this is how it all worked out, is I was coaching the ultimate fighter, so I had to stay here for a longer period of time. I really started to love the training in Vegas. And I was kind of finding my groove, how things worked. What really kept me here was coach Robert Follis. I said, hey, I'm staying here no matter what. Like, this guy's incredible. myself improving. As we all know, tragically, he passed away, you know, taking his own life. I think that broke everyone's heart around here. And it really left a lot of people that moved here

for him, not knowing what to do, me included, because I had moved here for him. But at the same time, I was like, all right, there's everybody else over here that cared about him trying to kind of pick up the pieces. And we went through all that together. And it made everything like a little stronger and at the same time, you know, on that emotional side, I felt like I was physically and athletically growing as well because it was something new for me. And that's the way I think the sport is, is something is not always better than the other thing, but sometimes just something new is better. And that's kind of where I was at in my career is I found new things and new people and people that really looked out for me and cared for me and were more focused on myself.

And that's how I came to it. She felt right, you know. Joe Rogan had a theory on his podcast that Kevin Lee probably never adapted after the loss of Robert Follis. Now, I'm not asking you to weigh in on that, but I guess what I would say is he did have a tremendous impact on a number of different fighters. Do you think it's possible that there are fighters out there are still reeling who never really got, they were never able to adapt from his absence? Yeah, years. I've been at the top of the game. and at 10 years, 13 years into my career, I found a coach that I was like, oh my God, still learning amazing things from, you know, on a mental, you know, physical, like spiritual side,

everything. So I wouldn't say there's like no coming back from it and stuff, but people are affected and you can see the effects. And I don't think that speaks to the fighters being this or not being able to adapt or anything like that. I think it just speaks to how amazing fallless was, if anything. Before I let you go, sort of one question. I don't know what your relationship was like.

The last time I spoke to you was the show in Brooklyn, I believe. You're Dustin Ortiz fight. Yeah. Yeah. Have you heard from personally, TJ? Are you spoken to him at all since then? Brooklyn, it had probably been a year or two since we talked. Okay.

And definitely two, about two years since we did any kind of training together. And probably over a year since we talked before that, that Brooklyn fight. So there was already a lot of separation there. There was no real, like, there was no event or anything that did it. It was just, it was just over time, you know, not being the same people and things of that nature. that, you know, so yeah, we hadn't talked about in a long time, even before that Brooklyn fight. So I know this is a weird question, but it's just one I have to ask because it's been on my mind. Now, maybe the timelines don't line up, so I don't understand the chronography.

But I saw people, not just you, but other people at Team Alpha Mail at the time being like, oh, yeah, we all knew TJ was on something. Why not tell Usada? That's how they actually bust people. Yeah, I think people don't realize. Like I came out in an interview and I was like, I'm surprised it took this long. Like there's a difference between knowing, thinking, assuming through all the hints and coincidences that happened. Like a bunch of coincidences and stuff, you know what police call that is evidence, right? But there is a difference between having evidence, seeing things and knowing things and seeing it.

Like did people see T.D. like shoot up in the back. bathroom and go out. I know, but I think what everyone's saying is they all assumed he was doing it. And even for me, like, things he had told me and hints and stuff he'd given me. And it was almost like one of those things that was a badly kept secret. Like, if you know, like, you know what I mean? It's like a badly kept secret, but you don't know and it's a peer, like, there's not much you can honestly do.

Like, at that time, like I said, there wasn't you saw it. but you can accuse your own peer of it and ruin something, make something weird, or say it all does go well. Like I believe there was like a sit down in an accusation at Alpha Mel. So for everyone saying, oh, you didn't do anything, I remember Faber having an actual sit down with him to the point of like, hey, like, you know, this can't be going on and these are the rumors, this and that. But like I said, it's a peer.

We're not Usada. Faber's not going to piss test him and say, hey, you can't come in the gym. I just tested your piss. So it was just one of those things like a badly kept secret. Like it's such a gray area that people don't realize it's not black and white of like, you know he was doing it, get him busted, or you don't know he was doing it at all. You know, it's not one of those things. Like you can always assume, but there's a huge difference between knowing and seeing and thinking and all that.

And that's kind of what it was for everybody. Like everyone was kind of like heard rumors, heard enough to the point and known him long enough and seen episodes and stuff in the gym where everyone kind of figured he was. But it was one of those things like, what do you go do? Go like, hey, TJ, give me your piss and stop. So I think that's what it comes down to. So it's such a polarizing subject that you're kind of damned if you do and damned if you don't. Like I simply went out there and I said, hey, you know, I wanted to. to make it put myself on the side that I think he was using longer than this.

And people take that as, oh, you know he was using longer this. I'm like, no, I'm putting myself on the side that I thought he was. And there's a difference between thinking, assuming, and like seeing a guy do it, you know. Well, I appreciate your candor on this topic and all the other ones. That is very clarifying. So thank you. I got to tell you, man, I cannot wait for your fight. Juicier Formiga.

It's going to be June 29th at the Target Center in Minneapolis, Minnesota. It's the co-main event on ESPN. end. So I don't know what's going to happen with this flyway division, but you're at the top of it. I know that. We appreciate your time. Thank you, Joseph. We'll catch up soon. Appreciate it. There he goes. Very good. Uh, always appreciate talking to Joseph Benavides, giving you the 4-1-1. All right. One more interview. Yesterday, he's traveling right now, but yesterday I caught up with Mark Montoya. If you guys have not been paying attention to what Factory X is doing. And Mark Montoya is the head of Factory X. Dude, he is making dreams and fighting come true for

some of these guys. Now, he's humble and he won't accept the credit of helping some of these guys out. And to be fair, of course, they're the ones out there fighting. But if you can find the right kind of guru, I mean, who would the Ninja Turtles be without Master Splinter? Right. They wouldn't be the same. It's kind of a situation like that. I personally believe that he is maybe, I don't know if he's the best coach in MMA. That's a hard thing to figure out. But man, he's on the short list as far as I'm concerned. He was the head coach of Anthony Smith. He's been the head coach of Anthony Smith for quite some time. And he's the one that gives him the instructions between rounds you heard in the Gustafson fight. I caught up with him yesterday. He was still in Sweden to talk about

Anthony, to talk about that fight. To talk about Gustafson retiring too, we got to get out of here. So, of course, you know, keep sending tweets using the hashtag the MMA hour. Keep calling 844-866-24-68. But before I go, here is my interview with Mark Montoya. And I'm joined now by the coach of Anthony Smith, as well as the proprietor of FactoryX in Denver, Colorado. The one and only Mark Montoya joins us here on the MMA hour. Mark, you've got to be feeling pretty good about how things went in Stockholm. Yes, that was about as, I don't know if it was our best case scenario, but pretty dang close. Hey, what's up, Luke, man?

Thank you for having me back on the show. Yeah, you know, I'm still actually in Stockholm, getting ready to leave here in a couple of hours. and I don't know if we've slept, man. It's been an amazing night last night and an amazing day. And I'm just super happy and proud of Anthony's performance. And the whole thing, it's been, it's absolutely been long overdue, especially with the John Jones fight and then getting to watch him go out there and perform like we know he can

was a special, special thing. This is the best win of Anthony Smith's career by far, right? Yeah, I would say he's, you know, they're all amazing victories. You're fighting people like Hector Lombard and Shogun and Vulcan and Gus and John Jones. So, you know, that's some, that's some high, high level, the best you're going to find ever, you know, type guys. So, but, you know, I would say Gus has got to be, yeah, it's got to be the best of his career so far for sure. All right. So let's talk about the fight itself.

I thought that I thought it was maybe the third round where maybe it was the second round, but there was a middle round where I thought Gustafsson had a bit of a, a bit of a rallying moment. But generally it kind of felt like Anthony was patient. And certainly we'll talk about the ground in a second. But in terms of the standup, how did you feel like things went? Yeah. So to answer your question, it was the third round.

I thought that the third round, Gus won. And between the between the, between the. round or he could have been the third round for sure. So I felt like Anthony won the first two and lost third. He was two one going into the fourth. I told Anthony between rounds, listen man, you got to

up your volume here. The only reason that we're losing that round is because that he mentioned to me he thought that he might have broke his hand. We still don't know if that's true or not. We're waiting to get back to the States. But I think that played small part into

him not throwing the volume that he needed between the in the third round and I told him in the cage I said stop processing and work on instinct and he reacted quickly he did that and I was very happy with what he did in the in his the striking department he had to we knew we had a really good idea that Gus would move and and like you and I talked actually you had mentioned him being a Matador versus a bull. And I think he did exactly what you and I talked about and move his feet. And we had to corral him and try to put him in range.

And I think every time that Anthony was trading with him and on his feet doing what he does, that Gus felt that. And when he felt like the striking was even or maybe Anthony was winning, he started working more toward the takedown. And we're okay with all that. And obviously see where the fight went once he's. hit the mind. So one of the things that I picked up, again, I need to go back and watch the fight for some specificity's sake, but one of the things I noticed was you guys putting together

combinations with stance switches as well as encroachment at the same time. So there was this play of stance, this play of distance in a way to just kind of confuse him, push him back, but push him back in a way where he didn't know what decision to make. And I felt like some of it didn't work. I felt like some of it really did. to what extent was that a part of the game plan? Well, it was a big part of the game plan. I think, you know, in order to stop somebody's feet, you've got to either go to where they're going,

so you cut them off and not chase, or you've got to confuse your movement in their head so that they stop all that moving. If Gus keeps moving and we chase, then we're going to run into something we don't want to run into and we knew that going into that and that's one of the reasons why you'll see him you know moving like you just mentioned in space with combinations before he ever wanted to do anything because we needed we needed to get to the spot where he was headed so we cut off and not chase uh so in the end this was a fight that

was decided i suppose i mean the the groundwork was laid on the feet, but in the end it was decided on the ground. When it went to the ground, were you concerned he might fall off the top? Like, what were you thinking as he had the back? Yes, first, but second, he got a little high, and his head, his head was getting over Gus's head. And, you know, in the corner, Scott and I made some good adjustments, yelling, or excuse me, made some adjustments between each other about what we were going to articulate and

Anthony made an amazing adjustment in repositioning. And then once Anthony gets your back and especially if he gets the body triangle in like he had, I've not seen him lose that position before. And in practice and all that, all the stuff we've ever done, he's always dominant there and finishes a ton from there. So we were really confident when he had him, especially as much time as he had on the clock. I felt like as long as he doesn't slip off there, he either has to figure for the far side arm or grab the leg

and he chose to do the arm, and that was what Scott and I were talking about in the corner and articulated that to him, and Anthony, of course, delivered. And, you know, once he was able to flatten him out, that's the worst position in MMA to be is on your stomach flattened out. That's terrible.

And obviously, we'd love to get any opponent there. So we were super confident once he made that small adjustment, spending and was able to get him down. Did Gus more or less do what you thought? Was there anything different? There were at times where he was being that Mattador that we had talked about. There were times where he was kind of coming forward to in ways I wasn't all, I don't know. In some ways, Mark, here's what I guess I'm driving at.

There was a lot that I recognized in classic Gus. And then I could tell there was a lot of confusion as well. Some of that you absolutely have to attribute to Anthony, of course. I guess I'm wondering what you saw in terms of what you had expected versus what you got. I didn't see anything that was unexpected. I'll tell you what. I've said this many times since preparing for John Jones. After preparing for John Jones, I haven't looked at a fighter sense where I've been like,

huh, this is something to really solve because John, that was one of the toughest puzzles I've ever looked at. And when I looked at Gus, and this isn't to discredit him because I have nothing but amazing respect for him. He's been a trailblazer and a legend of our sport. But when I watched him in the cage, it was what we anticipated and what we thought. And I knew that his rear-side uppercut was a weapon that he likes to use. And he does it a lot off of his jab.

And he does a lot off of moving to his right. And moving to his right is where he'll hit a stop and dart toward you and hit you with something that you just didn't see coming. Because he kind of, he makes opponents feel like they're safe. and yet they're not. And so, no, there really wasn't. When he did start to own the center a little bit and not play so much the Matador role, like you had mentioned, that didn't surprise me because I'd seen in other fights that he'll do that,

especially when his footwork isn't doing what he needed to do to get the job done. And so he would get toward the center and sometimes try to run there. And I was fine with them being in the center at all times. I had no concern about that. I feel like we win that fight all day right there. So it was a matter of getting him frustrated and bringing him back to the center. When I saw that happen in my head, I was like, great. We've got him in a position where he wants because he's somewhat confused

and losing a little bit of his game plan enough to move. So now he's on the center. So I was good with all that and none of it really surprised us. I want to talk about what this means for Anthony in just a second. But if you could, coach, could you comment on, you know, it was so hard to watch on TV, right? Because as you mentioned, on the one hand, Anthony's your, I'm sure, friend and pupil,

and it was amazing. I thought this was a phenomenal win for him. On the other hand, these exits from MMA, unless you're George St. Pierre, God, they are brutal to watch. They are awful. They happen under terrible circumstances where, you know, the guy was just longing to get a win in his hometown and a challenger like Anthony comes and takes it away from him.

I'm wondering if you could sort of comment on the moment that they're being there watching Gust of Sin. Like, surely you must have felt a degree of sorrow, even if competitively you guys were the ones who put them in that position. No, for sure. It pains my heart to see that happen. It's tough to watch.

I know what Gus has put into the sport because I've been in this, and I've been in there with these fighters, and I know what goes into it, and I know the exhilaration you have of major victories and how bad you feel. fit when you lose and um you know i'm going on my third wave of of fighters starting to retire and it's not it's not easy um but especially we have someone like us i i know anthony myself our camp

had nothing but respect for him and his whole coaching staff and team and i went i went up to his coach after and just told him you know what a phenomenal job he's done with cuss and and that it was such a pleasure to just share that opportunity with them. And I noticed pre-fight the fight just the way Gus was talking that, you know, if he didn't get this

victory, I felt like he might do that anyway. And that proves that he was in a, you know, just a different mental state. I'm not even in a bad way, but just he was being a realist to himself. And I also appreciate the fact that

he granted didn't win the fight. Granted didn't win the fight in his home country or his hometown, but has recognized that, okay, I'm not going to sit in here for too long and diminish his returns and walk away still, in my head, a true legend and an amazing ambassador for M.M.A. And that takes us to you, Anthony Smith. You know, there's those quotes and sometimes they're so cliche.

And I don't think Anthony said it. I've heard other athletes say it a million times, which is, you know, I'm going to show you how great I am. There's this interesting process playing out, Mark, where I think Anthony has believed in his upside for a very long time. And as you know, there's probably been some cynics in regards to what that upside might be. And yet slowly, but surely, he is beginning to do exactly that. I still think there is some pervasive criticism.

It's hard to get rid of all of it, Mark. But I wonder if you think this was a bit of an attitude-changing fight in the general sense of how he's viewed. Yes, I think people for sure are going to continually look at him and go, huh, he's opening my eyes. I'm more of a fan. I think he can do it, those type of things. But you're also going to get the fans that are going to say, like they said, on Anthony's come up. Hey, Gus retired, you caught him at the end, blah, blah, blah.

They're going to say those kind of things too. So you're never going to please everyone. And at the end of the day, that's not what we're doing this for. I completely get what you're saying. Is it another breakout performance to solidify that he's a real contender and can be a world title holder? 100%. I know we didn't get to show it in the Jones fight, and I know when you asked me the question the other day, who poses John Jones the biggest threat?

I said it's Anthony. And I still believe that, and I know what he's capable of. he was able to show and prove that and went out there and finished one of the best light heavyweights of all time. And, you know, the great part is that he gets, he should be sitting in the driver's seat to go and fight whomever wins. When Jones and Tiago fight, he should fight that winner because he has earned his opportunity again to fight for another world title. Did he exercise the demons from the John Jones fight? I mean, I know he got the win, but he was saying this wasn't about, I mean, it's always about the win. But there was, I guess the point I'm trying to drive at is there was clearly an element gnawing at him that was about being in the moment and showing a full display and getting out there and kind of sweating and bleeding and exchanging and being a part of the fuller fighting process.

Do he get that out of this one? Yeah, yes. And what he was after was the ability to go out and impress himself and the ability to go out and give Max effort. And I think those two things, or not I think, I know that those two things are what was missing when he fought Jones, and that's why he felt the way he felt. And us included, we know what he's capable of.

And I don't think you ever have a flawless performance, even when you knock guys out quickly, we can go and assess things and break it down and be critical. So he wasn't after a flawless performance. He still has a bunch of work and growing to do. You know, we're just getting started with him. He's still a project, and that doesn't mean that in a bad way. It just means in a good way that the guy still is evolving and getting better

and putting himself in another title contention opportunity. And I think if you're if you're being honest with assessment, if you're a fan or media or whomever, that you can see he's getting better and that he's adding stuff to his game and he's breaking some of his old habits. And I'll tell you, it's it's fun to watch on my end, but it's also fun to watch and go out there and win and perform. But honestly, he performed that way because of the lesson we learned against John Jones. I know it's a tough lesson to learn, but if we're going to get in there, let's at least learn, and he did that. And I really respect him for that.

I wonder if you could speak to his improvement being tied to your relationship with him. Now, I know what you're probably going to say. You're going to say it's about him and the work he put in, and all of that is true, but you know as well as I do, coach, that a lot of, in many cases, I should say, especially with elite athletes and guys at the tops of the division, part of what is their success is a function of a,

deep and profound relationship with the right kind of coach. It's a tandem process in many capacities. I'm wondering if you can speak to what you've seen since you started working together and how important that has been for his arrival at this moment. Yeah, I'm going to go cliche for a second on you and say it is his work and his sacrifice

and his family sacrifice and him coming and getting out of his comfort zone and deciding to come to Factory X in Denver and work with us. I'm 100% going to say that because that's all true. I'm also going to say that I think one of the pieces that was missing for Anthony when he came to me was he was looking for just a total package in leadership and to be able to create the synergy with technique, with personality, with game plans, with the whole thing. He was looking for that. And myself and Professor Busy and Scott Morton and Danny Molina and the whole team at Factory X,

we've been able to do that together with him. And a lot of times with these athletes, especially these vets that have these fights, sometimes they're not that coachable. They come in and they're just looking to, you know, just do, I don't know, sometimes I don't know what the hell they're looking for. and they don't come in super-coachable. And he came in so hungry and humble, but super-coachable that it's made life easy,

and then it's made life real easy for myself and Scott and Danny to coordinate and communicate when it comes to what's best for Anthony, and then him then listening to us. And I think that's one of his biggest attributes is he comes in as a vet when it comes to fights. you know, amount of fights he has, and it's still willing to be like, all right, coach, coaches, show me the way. And that's one of the things that I thought was impressive.

And I think if you notice in the fight, something that was interesting, and I thought about this today, is Anthony turned and looked at us in the corner two or three times in the fight. He's never done that before. And I think what that meant, and granted, it was loud in there. It was super loud. So some of it could have been that. but but what I took from that was guys I'm listening to you I trust you

and let's rock and roll and from the John Jones fight where we where we just weren't able to click on all cylinders there I think that was his symbolism to us that that we're getting this thing done and I'm here listening and learn and rock and roll and get and go get a victory before we let you go last question

he says he wants to take a break as not merely I think he's fought five times in a year but also as a promise to his family you would like to see him take a bit of a break here right? For sure, he definitely needs to take a break. He's

he's got, he's definitely needs to go out of some fun and enjoy his family and just heal up a little bit and you know he needed to get the he needed to get the whole taste out of his mouth type thing with this fight and you know as well as I do though

Luke they're gonna, the UFC is gonna be calling and asking for him to fight soon. And, you know, we were joking with Anthony, and I was saying, hey, man, I just spoke with the UFC and they told me you're fighting here in September. Are you ready? You know, and he was laughing. We were saying that last night. He was laughing about it.

But you know they're going to be calling. But it's just a matter of hopefully that they can respect his time for a minute and let him enjoy what he's done and his family. And then, you know, let's get back after it. once all that's happened because I do think there's also something to be said for him being consistent in the cage and having that consistency in there. I think a lot of that does translate to success, though. Fair enough. Well, I got to say, you guys did a phenomenal job. What a win. What a team effort. And Anthony Smith just continuing to do incredible things in the sport.

Safe travels, coach. We appreciate your time. Can't wait to see what you guys have cooked up next. Hey, Luke, we appreciate you, man. Keep doing it. great work. You're one of the best in the business. And like I said, always man, if you need me, let me know. I'll always come on here and just appreciate what you do. Thank you so much, Mark. Take care.