MMA Fighting - The MMA Hour with Ariel Helwani- Episode 424 (Part 2)

Episode Date: March 6, 2018

Ariel Helwani speaks to Holly Holm (00:12), Jon Fitch (22:07), and Gegard Mousasi (44:05). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Boarding for flight 246 to Toronto is delayed 50 minutes. Ugh, what? Sounds like Ojo time. Play Ojo? Great idea. Feel the fun with all the latest slots in live casino games and with no wagering requirements. What you win is yours to keep groovy. Hey, I won! Feel the fun!

The morning will begin when passenger Fisher is done celebrating. 19 plus Ontario only. Please play responsibly. Concerned by your gambling or that if someone close, you call 18665330 or visitcomex Ontario.ca. With Instacart, you get groceries that over-deliver, like when you get groceries that are the same prices in-store. With no markups that select retailers, you get in-store products for in-store prices, and the only thing that isn't in-store is you.

That means you could order in-store products at in-store prices while you're in sweatpants, in spin class, in stuffy work meeting, in anywhere but in-store. So download the app today and get $0-dollar delivery fees on your first three orders. Instacart, groceries that over-deliver. Service fees exclusions in terms apply. You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network. Thanks for checking out part two of this week's episode of the MMA hour.

Hope you're enjoying the show. All right. Let us move along to our next guest. Great to talk to her, as always on this program. A lot to talk to Holly Home about. So let us not keep her waiting any longer. Let's go to the phone lines now and say hello to the preacher's daughter, Holly Home, who's standing by. Holly, are you there?

I'm doing great. It's great to talk to you as always. Okay, so there's a lot to talk to you about. But first, I'd be remiss if I don't ask you about Saturday because you had to connection to both fighters, Chris Cyborg, who you just fought, and of course, Yanukunitskaya, a teammate of yours. What did you think about the fight? You know, I mean, Cybor is a strong fighter, you know. She hits hard and she's always kind of aggressive. And Yana, I mean, until the end of the fight, you know, Yana had some good moments, you know.

She had to take down, go on top. She was kind of controlling the cage and took her back. So it's not that it was, you know, all bad for Yonna. I think that she had some moments and things she's going to learn from the fight and, you know, just go forward. When a fight's over, all you can do is learn from it and move forward. So, you know, I have respect for both of them. And I don't know, it's one of those things like I think about all my fights that I always want to avenge my losses. And it's something that I want, you know, I want that fight back. I know it's a lot of work and the biggest fighter in all the women's divisions of the UFC,

but it's also one of those that I feel like I can do it. And I want to do it again, but I don't know. It's not, you know, like I said, Friday's fight. I don't have some moments in there. And I know that she'll be able to learn. That's a big fight to take on your UFC debut. Did you, I mean, did she come to you a lot? It wasn't a lot of time to prepare for someone like Cyborg, and I feel for her, because, as I've said, a bunch of times, you know, it's just, it's such a tall task to debut in a title fight in a main event against someone like Cyborg.

You know, you could fight in front of 800 people at Invicta, but this is a different beast, as you know. Did she lean on you a lot going into this? Did you try to help her out mentally, how to prepare for this experience? We're mostly just real good training partners, you know. I just tried to be there every day, be a sparring partner for her, be a grappling partner for her. Just, you know, there's not a lot of girls our size, obviously. We're the only two girls at that, you know, weight. So I just tried to make myself accessible to whatever she would need to help, you know.

And I just, I had a whole, her whole training camp. I was a Ritey, so it was kind of a different type of training. Just be like a Ritey the whole time, but it was kind of fun. and help me to evolve as a fighter as well. You know, I tried to give her the best look I could. But, you know, we have a lot of teammates at the gym that she trained with as well, just trying to give her a good look.

And, you know, like you said, it is a big fight to take just to be a main event on pay-per-view for your first UFC fight alone is a big deal, much less against, you know, a big unbeatable fighter that's out there. And up in a weight class, It's not even your normal weight class, you know, et cetera, et cetera. There's a lot of things that you kind of have to mentally overcome to even get in the cage there.

And, you know, she still had some good moments. But I know that she'll be a better fighter for it going forward. And, you know, we'll see what happens with her future. It sounds to me, correct me if I'm wrong, like here we are a little over two months later. And the cyborg fight is the one that keeps your fire going? Is that like a dream opportunity for you? Is that the number one? sort of thing at the top of the list,

you'd love that rematch? I would definitely want that rematch, you know, but I'm not, it's not something I'm putting, you know, all my thought into. I don't even think that could be my next fight. I bet you it'll be something else, you know. I don't know what it might be, maybe 135, maybe 145.

I'm really not putting too much into it, thinking it's got to be one way or the other, but I don't know. I guess it's just one of those things that I have just I always want to beat the unbeatable, I guess. And so, yes, that always kind of drives me a little bit. Have you thought about which weight class you'd prefer fighting at, 145 or 135? No, whatever.

I mean, obviously I feel like I'm a bigger fighter at 135, but at 145, it's like so much less stress about, you know, worrying about every, you know, meal, diet and cutting weights, like, super easy and you know kind of takes that stress away but um so honestly there's like pluses and minuses with either i'm open either have you watched the cyborg fight yet your your fight against cyborg at 219 no no you have you haven't no when i get back into training camp i probably will i mean i've seen clips here and there i know that a lot of clips are just you know highlights of her hitting me because this is hyping for this fight but um i know i had some good moments you know, and there's a couple times.

I know that there's a couple times that I hit her with some good solid shots, and I do felt like, you know, like in the clinch that I was doing some good things, and there's always something to build on, but it always takes me a little while to go back and watch my fight, too. What do you, without watching, I'm sure you remember so much of it, what do you wish you did differently in that fight? Well, I can't tell you all of that, because if I get a rematch, I don't be able to do it. But, I mean, you know, there are a couple things.

Like, I mean, just basic things. Just, I just wish I would have been more active in situations that I maybe was controlling. And every fight is different, too. And there's things that I have goals of what I want to get better on, but I definitely don't want to just think about that either. Because even though it would be a rematch with this, you know, if her and I got a rematch, it's still. would be a different fight.

No two fights are exactly the same. Right. Because people go back the second time thinking, well, this is what I'm going to change this time. And so a fight really doesn't go the same way every time. Do you take some solace in the fact that you were the first person to go to the distance with her in around nine years? Like, is that a feather in your cap or do you not really care?

Well, one thing that I, I guess it's not the five rounds I went with her. it's that I gave her a competitive five rounds. I think that is more something that I know that I'm proud about, I guess. I know it's her toughest fight, really, I guess. I look at it. When I think about my fight, I still walk away with a loss. So there's really not that much pride I have about it. You know what I mean?

And I should know. Yeah, it's pride. Go ahead. Sorry? To me, the win is the pride. It's, you know, I didn't take the fight just to make it five rounds. I took it because I wanted to win. And so, yeah, I know that I was in the tough of fight.

And it's like, well, I know I did that. And so there's like a little bit of, okay, well, I know I was a tough of fight. But that's not what I wanted to be. I wanted to be the one to beat her, you know? And I should know first once go five rounds. She hadn't gone the distance in nine years, but that was in a five-round fight. So that's another, you know, a little feather in your cap as well. but I understand what you're saying about the win.

I asked you this question before that fight in Brooklyn a little over a year ago, and I'm sure, and this is not a concern or at least a great concern to you, but is it a little surprising that other than Cyborg, they haven't really built out that division? Like there's really no other true 145ers who are actively competing in the UFC. Do you think that's a little strange? Yeah, I think they're, you know, maybe they don't really want to, I don't know, but I think that maybe they don't really want to have to promise that many fighters

you know, and add more to the roster. I think they just kind of want to do just kind of one at a time. I mean, cyborgs obviously the one that everybody wonders will anybody ever beat her. And so I think they just kind of keep it based around that and try and see who will take the fight. But I think that it would be, you know, when you start to build a division around it

and you actually start to bring people in, that's going to create a competition and a goal and that can change a lot of things, you know, rather than just keeping, like, the one person there and just kind of, like, singly bringing in one opponent from here, or one from there, one from there. I guess there's not really a 145-pound division. There's just every now and then there's a title fight for the 145-pound belt.

Right, exactly. It's the Chris Cyborg Division. Yeah. We haven't heard much from you. You've kind of laid low since the fight, and understandably so. but I'm just wondering, you know, considering you've been fighting for so long, did what happened at 219 force you to sort of evaluate your career and how much longer you want to do this?

Why are people asking me, they say, oh, you've had four out of five losses, you know, four out of five fights are losses, and, you know, you're 36, and are you going to retire now? It's like, I mean, it just, I still want to fight. That's the bottom line. You know, there's some people that say, oh, wow, the only one that actually took her that far and then there's others say oh you're going to return and i'm like well why i want to retire one i just gave gave her the toughest fight she's had too you know what i mean

and in a in a weight class it's the heavier weight class from what i usually fight and against the biggest you know person like i was still the one to give her the toughest fight so i don't really understand the retirement you know people think should you retire maybe it's just because of the way that you know, the four fights have gone, but it's, I don't see it that way. I know that I still am competitive and have a lot of capabilities, and I still want to do it. So I definitely don't have this, you know, obviously every year gets like a little bit more like, well, maybe I see it kind of coming closer. I'm 36, I'll be 37 this year, you know, but I still feel like I'm strong and in competitive shape.

I don't feel 36, you know? I feel competitive and I feel strong and I feel like I can really do well still. So I'm going to keep going with it. The retirement questions, I get the sense they annoy you. Absolutely. And I don't blame you. It's like imagine someone coming up to anyone who's working in any industry. Are you thinking about calling it quits and it's not like you're, you know, 60 years old.

So it's a bizarre thing in sports. I think it depends on how they say it too. It's like, oh, how much longer do you think you're going to do this? Like, that's different. But the ones that are like, gosh, you're 36, like, are you going to retire? Are you going to do this? It's like, I remember my sister-in-law, you know, like three kids. Sometimes people will be like, wow, they're on their third kids.

Like, yeah, that's what they want to do with their life? Like, what's wrong with that? you know, because she had three kids, like, in a row. That's, like, all her kids are going to be, like, buddies and be able to grow up together and be friends together. But a lot of people are like, wow, like, my mom said the same thing when she was pregnant with me. Like, a lot of people are like, wow, you're having a third kid already. Like, why would you do that? Like, why are you going to, why are you asking someone that when they're already pregnant?

Sure. They have their baby on their way. Yeah. So I'm so fighting. Obviously, this is what I want to do. I think that it's weird that there's so many people out there that look at, people's lives in that list. Okay, just, actually just last night, one of our teammates just posted this quote from

He's Lodge or I'd never seen it before and I love it. Okay. I'm looking it up right now. Okay, please. It's exactly how I feel in life with everything. So I have it right here on my phone. I kept it. I don't keep many quotes.

That's how much I like this one. All right. So it says, everyone you meet always ask. if you have a career or married or own a house as if life was some kind of grocery list, but nobody ever asks you if you're happy. And that's totally how like this sometimes. Oh, are you married? Oh, you have a house here.

It's like what it is. It's like, is it a grocery list? Like, well, you're just checking stuff off? Like, I want to live day to day and I want to live by passion. And right now I still want to fight. So that's what I'm going to do right now. I'm not promised to even live tomorrow. You know, anything can happen in life.

So I'm just going to do what I feel like doing right now. So let me ask you, are you happy? I am. There's always things in life that are like struggles and things that are frustrating. And in my career life, yes, I'm very brokenhearted right now because I'm coming off of a loss. But with that being said, I can't ever feel anything but blessed. I have so many good people around me in my life. And I still have this team that's awesome.

And I still have goals and dreams that I want to shoot for. you know, I think a lot of people in life don't even know what their passion might be. And I feel fortunate and blessed to have a passion because I feel a purpose. So that makes me happy. Just curious, has the UFC even contacted your management, like saying, oh, we have this plan for her next? We wanted to do this. Has anything been brought to your attention since the fight?

I kind of just told them, yeah, I'm going to be ready to fight pretty soon. But usually I'm like, what's next right away? And this is the first time I said, you know, I think I probably just need like a month or two to just kind of not stress about a fight. I still want to train, enjoy training, all that, you know, but there's some fighters that are really active, some that aren't, you know, I'm usually a pretty active fighter, and I'm usually never like, oh, just let me, I was like, you know, as this, it's not just, it wasn't said it was because of the last fight, it was just, I don't know, I just felt like, you know what, give me like a

month or two to not have like that deadline the goal that you know that weight on my shoulders it's not even that long just you know two months to just kind of take care of some things and kind of catch up on my life outside of fighting and you know I'm already getting kind of that ache again you know I was in the gym a lot since my last fight already you know I was back within two weeks I was already back training because I just wanted to keep evolving and getting better and then sure enough

you know after a little bit of time you don't have to fight with cyborg and I was training with her anyway because they had talk of an earlier fight card with her that she possibly was going to be fighting

a girl that was actually a lefty and so I was kind of in there just for that purpose So I've kind of just been in the gym anyway, but it's been nice to train for fun. Yeah. And without training, I always enjoy training for the most part, but getting close to a fight when you have to go in and really focus on your opponent and the deadline and your diet and everything like that. It's like, I like to eat healthy anyway. The diet's not that stressful, but I'm just saying it's just a lot of different elements when you're actually in training camp to when you're not.

And so I just kind of been enjoying my training. do you enjoy like just based off of your Instagram your social media it seems like sometimes we have you guys in boxes like your fighters and you're always hanging out with fighters but you obviously have a life outside of fighting and you have friends outside of fighting and sometimes it's like wow holly likes to cook or holly you know like you're you're not you know what i mean do you do you sometimes need that break from the gym to not um be sort flooded with all things fighting is that healthy for you you know what i i i if i'm not in a There isn't a week that goes by that I don't at least go to the gym, but right now, I guess, and always in between fights, I kind of just try and change it up a little bit.

Right now I'm doing a little bit more yoga and strength training so I can go see different faces and get a benefit from different types of training because I may not have time for as much of that when I get back into a fight camp. And that way I don't ever feel, I think mine is more, I don't ever want to feel like my training is too monotonous to where I don't get up for a fight, you know. I don't want to feel like burnt out by the time I even start a training camp. But I kind of try to keep a little bit of a different schedule in between. Yes, I still will do something MMA related once a day. Okay. But it's not like I might just far in the morning and then go back in the afternoon and grapple and go back for another private. It's like, I'll probably go to practice in the morning, and then maybe instead of going back, you know, to the gym for something else, I might go for a run and go to yoga or go, you know, I've been doing, I only do like two days a week of strength training when I have a fight coming up.

And even the closer to a fight, I actually, some, with the last couple weeks, I don't really do any more strength training. At that point, you know, lifting weights your last week of hard training isn't going to make you stronger for the fight. It's probably going to break your muscles down. So, but right now is the time to try and maybe build some strengths a little bit. Not that I'm trying to get bulk. I just want to have some, you know, just inner strength. And so I've been doing, I don't know, just a little bit more of that, little yoga, little Pilates, just changing it up.

And by the way, I have to ask, have you been compelled to watch Ronda Rousey and WWE? Have you checked her out? That's anything yet, but I will. Why not? A lot of people ask me, too, like, would you ever do something like that whenever you're done fighting? And I'm like, why not? It's like in life, why not go ahead and take on every, you know, possibility that you have and any kind of, like, experience you can get?

So, Rhonda going to do that, why not? I'm sure that's why I'm having fun with it, you know? So is that something that you will try to, like, do you have an interest in pro wrestling? Oh, who knows? Okay. I never really know what, gosh, I look at my whole career and it's like, you know, when I very first fought, I just kind of wanted to see what it was like. I didn't ever even think I'd really be pro.

And then when I turned pro, I didn't think I'd really fight for a title. And then when I fought for a title, I didn't think I'd defend it so many times. And then when I was doing that, I didn't really think I was going to do MMA. And then when I was in MMA, I thought, you know, I thought, you know, I had these, like, small goals that I look back at, like, the journey that these small goals have taken me on. Who knows where I'll be? So when people ask me about it, I guess I'm not going to say I'll never do it, but I'm not going to say that it's something that is in my plan right now because my goals right now still are just in MMA. So Holly Holme is going to go out of her way and watch Ronda Rousey's WrestleMania debut in April.

Is that accurate? I'm going to do it. Oh, wow. That's amazing. That just shows the kind of person that you are. That's great. I'm happy to hear that. And good to catch up with you as always, Holly.

Thank you very much for stopping by. Thank you. Do you have a month that you want to come back? Is there a time frame yet? Or you haven't even thought of that yet? Oh, I definitely don't want to be like too, too long. You know, speaking of age, it's not like I got, I will be 37 this year. So look at Andre, he's 39, I think.

He just had a big win this last weekend. So I guess it's all how you take care of your body, too. But, you know, I don't know, maybe in the summer. Hope so. I mean, we're already in March, so hopefully it'll come soon. All right. Well, we wish you the best, Holly. Thank you so much for stopping by. Thanks for taking the time, as always. Yep, we'll talk to you soon. There she is. Holly home, stopping by. Great to talk to her as always. Still very much, play. Still very much one of the top draws in the UFC's women's division. There's absolutely no doubt about that. Just look at the pay-per-view buy rate for 219. And I'm curious to see this one with Cyborg kind of carrying it. It's kind of not being a household name.

I'm very curious to see what this one does on pay-per-view. All right. So that's 222 talk. We'll have more later on in the program, but one of the big stories late last week was that John Fitch has signed with Bellator. How about that? The longtime MMA veteran, of course,

former UFC title challenger just recently was the WSOF welterweight champion of the world. He has been let go from that organization. his own, his own doing, his decision. They're rebranding into PFL. They vacated all the belts. And now he is in Bellator and he'll be debuting on May 12th against the one and only Paul Daly in his backyard, longtime backyard of San Jose, California. So a perfect place for his Belter debut. He joins us now via the magic of Skype. There he is. John Fitch. John, how are you? I'm good. How are you? I'm doing great. Great to talk to you. And congratulations on the big news. Could you,

explain what happened with, you know, WSOF slash PFL, you were their champion, they rebrand. How did you leave that organization? How did that go down? You know, this is prize fighting, and I'm in the business of winning titles, and

you know, I think there's more competition and better people to fight in Belator, and I just wanted to chase another title. And it was more appealing to me to jump ship and go to Belator, and tracked down another title than it was to enter a tournament, fight five times in six months,

and, you know, win a title and then lose it in the same night. Okay. So you asked for your, you still had fights left, or did everything kind of start at zero once they rebranded? No, I mean, they have to honor the contracts. And, you know, there are some parts of my contract that, you know, the thing I was most worried about is not being active. You know, it's the worst thing for a fighter is to be healthy and ready to. to fight and then not be active, not be offered fights.

So I had some provisions in my contract that said they had to offer me certain fights and certain timeframes. They failed to do so, so I just held them to the contract. They either needed to provide the fights, pay me for the fights they didn't give me, or release me. And they chose to release me. Okay. Was Belletoy your top choice?

Is that where you wanted to go? Yeah, I think so. It's my hometown. They do a lot of shows here. I really like Skowker, as Scott Coker. sorry, Scott Coker, and I think he's the best promoter in the business right now. Why? You know, I think he's been doing this for a very long time, and he's done it very well.

I think he puts together a better show, and I think, you know, if it wasn't for the U.S. he's monopoly, he would probably be dominating the market. You've never fought for Scott before, obviously, but, of course, a mainstay in the San Jose region, and as you mentioned, been doing this for a long time. kind of relationship before, you know, this negotiation? Yeah, we're friends. We've talked. We've hung out before.

I've had dinner with the man. I know people who worked with him intimately and have for many years, people I'm friends with. And nobody has anything negative to say about him. And you're back at AK now, right? Yes, we moved back to San Jose. Vegas was great. One kick Nick was amazing.

I still work with Nick. the guys that I got to train and spar with and everything, Cheating Jiguani, especially. A lot of great guys at One Kix Gym. But we just didn't have the family support that we do here in San Jose. And with two kids, it was difficult to manage, I think, when we were in Vegas. Okay. So you get the Bellator deal.

You're on this big stage. You're fighting at home. And you're fighting Paul Daly. And these are two marquee names. I think the Walterweight Division. is the best division in Bellator right now. It's the deepest in Belator. Right off the bat, it seems,

this is a tough style matchup for Paul Daly. Historically, he's had trouble with wrestlers. Did you think the same? Were you surprised that they gave you daily? Or maybe, given his troubles with the organization, maybe this was a punishment for speaking out. I don't know. What did you think? I think I'm a bad stylistic matchup for everybody.

Okay. That should be my nickname. Bad stylish stick matchup. Right. Fair. There's not too many people who are like, oh, yeah, that's a great matchup for them against Chanty. It just doesn't know. I have too many tools to my disposal, and I'm a cardio machine, and I'm just meaner than most people, and it's hard to beat mean. How far away do you think you are from the Roy McDonald orbit?

I don't want to look past, you know, Paul Daly. He's tough, and there's other tough guys out there, you know. But I think by the end of the year, if things go well, if I'm healthy, if he's healthy, it's a possibility for sure. Of course, we all remember UFC 87. Is this your chance to write that wrong? You can't fight GSP, but maybe he's the next best thing. Is this part of your motivation? I'm in the business to fight the best guys in the world.

I'm not here just to talk trash and be on TV. I want to challenge myself. I want to fight the best. you know that's one of the reasons why i kind of wanted to go to velte d'is there's not there's not really many people or anybody left for me to fight in the pfl um jake shield is probably their best guy um you know i beat o'cami already there's not a lot for me there right and of course ocami is in the ufc now so um he's not there as well um you are obviously always vocal about the state of m mhm and you're doing great work trying to help the sport evolve. And I see you're wearing the MMAFA shirt. How do you

feel about the state of MMA in 2018? It's slowly getting better, but it's still not a free market. We have no free market. There's no leverage for the fighters. Just like a Mighty Mouse, he tried to leverage his position, and they threatened to get wear of his whole weight class. That just goes to tell you there's absolutely zero leverage on the fighter's side, and there's no way to have leverage until we get to own our titles in our rank. And the only way to do that is an independent sanctioning body. So when you say there's no free market, I mean, like when you were released, you could sign with whomever you want, right?

Isn't that a free market? I mean, does, is Rory McDonald considered the best Walterweight in the world? Is Tyrone Woodley going to leave the UFC with his belt and fight Rory to prove that he's the best? Right. But isn't that the case in every sport? Like if I'm signed by the Orlando Magic four years. If you're, if you're, you know, if you win a championship in the NFL for the bills or whoever,

right. You can go to another team the next year that they bid for more money. Well, not if you have a contract. It's not ever going to happen. But you have a contract. You sign a four-year deal. The contracts never end. The contracts never end in the UFC.

If you win the belt, you must defend it. under contract. That's one of the issues. Right. So you have a problem with like the champions clause because every fighter signs for like X amount of fights, but you're saying the term, there's no term usually, right?

It's not a two-year deal, so it'll expire after two years. You have to fulfill those six fights or eight fights, whatever. And if you win the championship, first off, you won't even get a title shot unless you have more than one fight on your contract. If you don't have one fight in your contract,

you'll never get a title shot. They will force you to sign an extension. And then once you win the title shot, you're forced to defend it. In boxing, you can go free agent the second you win a belt. Did these values, did this come into play when you were deciding where you were going to go next? In other words, do you feel like Bellatorre doesn't have these restrictions contractually? Everybody does, but, I mean, I have to feed my family. And it's either I don't feed my family or I dive headfirst into an exploit.

environment and we don't really have a choice. It's either fight and make money under these conditions or retire and go somewhere else and maybe make money or not make money. I'm sure you heard about it's just not a not a free market. Right. The new project spearhead group headed up by Leslie Smith, what if anything do you know about it and more importantly how do you feel about it? I mean, a single entity labor union will not work in a mixed martial arts. If you have no leverage at all, then there's no way for you to have a CBA that's going to do anything. When the promoter can willy-nilly strip belts, take your rank, I was fired when I was ranked number nine. Somebody else was just given that rank.

I mean, if you look at the WBE, the WBE could eliminate their entire roster. and continue forward with no problems with a brand new set of people. There's nothing stopping the UFC or any other promotion from doing that exact same thing. So you feel like something like this, it's a mistake for them to just be a UFC only. Even though would you not agree that the UFC fighters and the Belator fighters are sort of playing under different rules, like with the Reebok deal and Usada, there's different things that apply to them that don't apply to you in Belator. So isn't it hard to get everyone on this uniform playing field? I mean, the UySada and the uniform is not an example of those fighters being employees.

That's a demonstration of the Mansopini power of the UFC. The uniforms are not evidence of employee status. They're exhibit one of Mansopony power. UFC athletes have no say. These terms are imposed on them precisely because the UFC is a dominant monopoly and monopolies. The athletes have no negotiating power whatsoever. But isn't that exactly what an employee, like you just tell an employee you have to wear this, you have to do this, you have to be, isn't that exactly?

Again, again, that's not evidence of being an employee. That's a demonstration of their monopsony power. That's a part of our class action lawsuit. Right. How is the lawsuit going, in your opinion? Well, we're waiting for the status of being, they're going to rule on our class. We're going to get our class status. If they find that we've all been damaged in the same way, all fighters from 2010 to present day,

if we've been damaged in the same way, we'll get the class in and we'll move forward from there. There was a revelation that came out as far as the lawsuit is concerned from the UFC's lawyers, saying essentially that it's impossible to compare the fighters to professional athletes of the four major sports because they're unionized and these guys aren't, meaning you guys. and at least it read to me, like he was saying, it's a mistake for the MMA fighters, UFC fighters, to not be unionized because you don't get certain advantages and, of course, you don't have a seat at the table. Did you see that?

And did you feel the same way about that response? I mean, why are they only stating the UFC's expert? We have the premier leading economist expert, Zambulist. Andrew Zimbos. He said his statements too. And he talked about, yeah, he talked about why they have their monopoly power. Why, why is that quote stated? What do you mean?

By who? The media? Another, the media and the other organizations out there. The fact is, the league sports are league sports, because they have 32 owners and entities. You're talking about a single owner entity. There is no negotiating with the single owner. entity. They have all the power. They can just take away your rank and title at any time they choose to. They can create a new rank and title anytime they choose to. They can fire everybody on

the roster that has a loss and replace them quite easily and just give new ranks to new people. Right. But in like in boxing, if someone is, you know, if I'm signed by Lou DeBella, I can't just leave Lou DeBella either, right? I mean, you can't, you can't just go willy-nilly. Well, that's a, that's a manager, not a promoter. I would actually know Lou Debella I would say is a promoter like Ludabella Bob Aram

Oscar Delh these are promoters I'm sorry you know what I mean they are promoters yes but but you have legitimate promoters competing against them and the athletes can promote themselves if they choose to so if you don't like the way the promoter is doing something you could actually go to the

other promoter and still compete for the top belt you can't do that in the MMA we're not really a sport. You can't say, oh, this promoter is doing a bad job that's promoting me. This promoter isn't doing a good job. He's not giving me good splits of the money. I'm going to leave this promoter and sign with another promoter. You won't have the same status. You will not have a single MMA, a UFC fighter leaving and be respected on the same level and have the chances to make the same amount of money if he goes to anywhere else. And he can't promote himself.

I mean, Roy McDonald did that and he's probably making more money in Bellator than the UFC. because the U.S. was suppressing his wages, not because he had the chance to fight for the highest title there is to own and then use that as leverage to gain more of the percentage of the revenue made. Okay. I mean, I guess that's arguable, but I get your point. It's not arguable.

It's a fact. That's a fact. And economists have come forward and made statements in our case proving that. But I mean, our next guest, too, Gagra Musassi left the UFC on a winning streak, went and signed with Bellator because they were paying him more and seems to be enjoying. And he still,

and he still will not maximize his profits the way he wouldn't have free marketed. But he wasn't a free market. The only thing that drive up pay. He wasn't a free market. It's not a free market. He can't fight for the UFC title. The UFC title is the belt that pays the most money. No matter how much he gets paid by Bellator,

he's never going to make as much money as if he owned the UFC title, ever. I don't know how you can say that. And the you and the you, I can. Because I can say because our economists are saying that. Well, I mean, you're comparing one organization who's seven years old to another who's 25. They're not playing under the same rules. I'm comparing a company who's monopolized the market and controls 90% of the market share, who only pays out 17% to its athletes.

Back in the early 1900s, when boxing had its monopoly scheme going on, they were paying their boxers, 25%. NCAA athletes today make 22% of the revenues made. U.S.C. fighters make 17%. Listen, we're coming from the same place. I talk about this almost ad nauseum on my program. I do disagree with some of the things, but I appreciate the passion and the inside. I want to ask you quickly before I let you go, it seems because sometimes I get tagged in the tweets, you're not a fan of the MMA media as well. Is that accurate? Do you feel like we're not doing a good enough job of reporting on this?

I feel that your hands are tied. I don't want to attack anybody. I don't attack the managers. I don't attack any of the promoters. I don't attack any of the sports media. You guys have your hands tied. When they're not in place, they have control over the entire market. And if it ends up to them punished, you face it yourself.

You got fired at a job in reporting. Oh, no. And that's that they do those. to scare people. They do to scare people. I'm sure no one else tries it. I know that the media gets handed talking points and told who they cover or how they cover them. That's not a secret.

And I don't know anybody for it. It's a symptom of the disease of a monopoly. Everybody else is suffering through this. And even voters who exist in this market today have to keep to do with it. The pretitas are gone. They're out of here. They cast their checks and took off. they made a match and they left.

Now the rest of us have to do with it. Right. Do you see a light at the end of this tunnel? Do you feel like in your career? When we go to D.C., when I've been paying out of pocket to self-lobying of D.C. Which is the ALEA. When I talked to politicians, they're lawyers and business stuff.

When we show them contracts, when we tell them the situation, they cannot believe it, it's gotten this bad. They can't believe something like this happens in this day and age. And they're easily jumping on to support. I feel that we're going to pass Aliyak through this year. And within two years' time of 2020, we'll have a free market. We'll be able to see who's really the best fighters in the world. And fighters will actually get to negotiate for real contracts and healthcare and all that stuff.

Until that happens, you have no leverage, absolutely zero leverage. No CBA will ever do anything in a single entity monopoly. But do you agree, though, that it is important, at least in this structure, to have a seat at the table? In other words, if Bellator came and said... What seat at the table? It's a kid's table. It's a kid's table. But listen. If Bellator came to you and said, for your fight on May 12th, starting April 1st, you cannot have any sponsors anymore. And you can only wear what we tell you to wear.

And we're going to drug test you 24-7, 365. Would you not at least like a say in that? They would be guilty of Montempanis, and that's illegal, and they would get lawsuits against them. Okay, well, that's happening in the UFC, and that's why Project Spearhead is probably... And they have a lawsuit against them. Well, not, but you have a lawsuit against them. You didn't suffer that. The current fighters are suffering that.

So why not be for the Project Spearhead in addition to MMFA? I didn't have to deal with the Reebok deal, but I did have to deal with them taxing my sponsors, putting my sponsors out of business, because they force, them to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars just to sponsor me $3,000. Yeah, yep, that is true. It's the same scheme. It's the same controlled scheme. As someone who is deeply invested in this, are you in favor of Project Spearhead? What I don't understand is everything that we have been pushing for and trying, they seem

to be adopting, except Leslie Smith especially could not get support for any of her views in our group. and she continually broke our trust with speaking about, confidentially spoken about things in our private chats. That's something that's not okay. We had secret private chats that were made public by her. That's the number one reason why she was asked to leave. But she seems dead set on creating a single entity UFC monopoly,

and that's a death wish to everybody. You cannot have a successful CBA under a single entity monopoly. It only works if there's multiple owners who are on the same playing field. And there is nobody at the match of the UFC. Nobody is on equal ground with the UFC, not even close. Nobody is knocking down the door to leave the UFC to go to Belletor because their title is going to bring them more money. If you want respect and you want the most money possible for you as a fighter,

you have to go to the UFC. You do not have a choice. we get to i would love to talk about this uh with you for hours i love this topic um i think it's it's somewhat ironic that you say that it's being gagar musasi who literally just did that but i respect where you're coming from and more importantly i appreciate how passionate you are about this he left because of frustrations he left because of frustrations and he made me making more money but it's more money on a on a on a on a on a restricted level the pay scale is restricted. Like, he's never

going to maximize his profits. He's never going to get a real piece of the pie. He's not going to get a real percentage. And the fearmongery that people put that the Ali actor is going to turn us into boxing is yes. We have different fan bases, right? You're never going to have

a card where you just put the two top fighters like the McGregor and Mayweather. You're never going to get a card like that. The fight fans won't stand for it. We're never going to make 85% of the gross revenue. We may make 60 to 70% when we'll have a fuller card just like MMA fans won. That's our future, not a CBA under one single entity monopoly. It's not going to happen. You have

fight careers in the UFC, the top guys who are on the main event. It's two and a half years, less than two and a half years, the top guys. That's not even the minimum, league minimal in the NFL to join their association. And that's removing people who've had only one fight. How are you got to have those guys pay into a pension if they don't even, the top guys don't even fight two and a half years. What kind of pension? What kind of health care? Where's the money going to come from? Are you just going to take the money from the guys who have been there from 10 years and they're going to pay for the health care for guys who have one fight? How's that going to work? Yeah, it's fascinating. Thank you, John. I really appreciate it. We would love to

invite you back on to talk about this, but we were at a time. Congratulations on the New Deal with Bell Tour and looking forward to your debut. Make sure if you guys get a chance, I have a blog series coming out on I started a week ago on medium.com medium backslash at john Fitch I'm going through old journals is talking about a lot of my old stuff that I went through in college and through uh through the fight career I'm actually just putting out my journals for everyone to read so you can see what actually is going on this is very personal and a little embarrassing but I think you guys will really enjoy it all right also official John Fish on YouTube. I do shake breaks every day at 10. Check me out.

Okay. Thank you, John. A man of many talents. We appreciate it very much. I will check out that journal. That sounds really cool on it. Thank you, Ariel. Appreciate him stopping by and congratulations on the new deal with Belator. Okay, so as I mentioned, speaking of Belator, speaking of someone he was just talking about, essentially, let's go to our next guest. Gaggar Musassi is stopping by. He returns at Belator 200 in May in London against Rafael Carvalio for the middleweight title. Gagart, are you there? I'm good, Ariel. How are you? I'm doing great. By the way, Did you hear any of the stuff John was saying?

Did you hear any of that at the end of the interview? Yeah, just a little bit I heard. Do you have any thoughts on what he was saying as far as, you know, the free market and not being paid as much as, you know, if you're not in the UFC, you're not going to get paid as much as your worth? Well, UFC, how many percent of the fighters are making good money? I think that maybe the champions and ex-champions. So if you're not one of those, you're not probably going to get paid.

as you as much as you should, you know. So for me, you know, as a fighter, you want to be paid what you worked, not saying, okay, because you never know if they're going to give you a title shot or not, or they're going to give you a fight as long as, until you lose it and then you won't able to fight for the belt, you know. So it's only one or two guys that are fighting for the belt

that make good money. So, yeah, of course, if you're a UFC champion, you're going to make good money. But if you're not, you go back to your old contract. And, yeah, then you're going to make less probably. Yep, that is true. You are happy in Belator, though, I'm assuming, right? I mean, for the most part, even though you're not in the UFC, things are going well, right?

Yeah, 100%. I have nothing to complain. I'm fighting in London. Crow Cup, I heard, is fighting too. And you have already a great car. Phil Davis is fighting on that card, you know. You're going to have some English local fighters. You know, it's going to be a good, great card, especially for a European market.

That's right. That's Beltor 200. You're fighting for the belt. I have to ask you, though, Geyegar, the last time I spoke to you was the Monday after your debut against Alexander Schlomenko, and you were very fired up. I mean, that interview, people still come up to me and talk to me about you telling the haters to suck it and all this stuff. I know it's several months later, but have you calm down a little bit?

Do you still feel the same way? Like, when I bring it up again, do you still get fired up the way you did on that Monday? No, listen, I went to watch the fight. If I thought I would have lost that fight, I would have said, honestly, I lost that fight. But it was obviously two rounds to one round. So I clearly won the fight. You know, it's a point system how the judges score. So, you know, there's not.

nothing, there's no discussion about it. You know, of course, some fans, you have some Russian fans. Of course, they're going to pick the side of Alexander, but it is what it is, you know. I take this victory to my grave, so whoever things I lost,

you know, they have to live with that. Fuck them. What can I say? When you watch the fight again, overall, I mean, you, you had to overcome, you know, the adversity early on with the eye, but were you happy? Like, was this, okay, you know, this is not as bad as I thought. Were you happy overall with your body of work?

No, no, of course I'm not happy. You know, after one, the first shot that landed, I, you know, I broke my overcoat, and then it was just holding on, grabbing, taking down, controlling. I still won two rounds of the three with one eye. So I believe I'm the better fighter then. I believe I'm the better fighter now, but. I did what I had to do with one eye. And if I didn't have that injury, I probably would have won also the third rounds.

If not, I would, you know. But, yeah, sometimes things doesn't go your way or way. You know, it's fighting, it's, you know, the case closed. Everyone has a chance. And he caught me. What can I say? You know, shit happens. You've laid low since that fight.

I mean, I haven't heard much from you. What have you been doing since you, since you, uh, since you went. went back home and took some time off. Well, all was the doctors, after the fight, you know, there was some confusion. I don't know. I thought I lost my eyes because my doctors were talking and they were so mysterious, you know.

You know, people don't see what's happening after the fight. But now my eyes good. I'm healed up on training. Training is going great. You know, I have no doubt I'm going to win that, though. but people can judge me well because of my previous fight, but, you know, I never had two pass performers in a row, and I'm not planning to do that somehow.

Did you have to have surgery? No, the doctor didn't show that I need a surgery. My eye looks a little bit different now, so maybe after fighting I get a sick just for cosmetic reasons. What do you mean? what do you mean looks different? No, you know, the shape is a little bit different. So, yeah, it was a big impact.

So, yeah, but whatever, you know, I'm not, you know, I'm out of. Did we lose him? Gayguard, are you still there? They've just lost them. We shall reconnect. Okay, we're calling them back. Just kind of faded away there. But that is a pretty, that is a pretty massive revelation.

I want to ask him again. It sounded like he said he thought for a minute that he was going to lose his eye. Remember all the, I don't know, the criticism afterwards. Some people thought he won the fight. Some people thought he lost the fight. He was all kinds of fired up. He said to the haters, you can suck it. It was great stuff.

And he hasn't really talked since then. The Belator 200 lineup is as follows, at least as of right now, May 25th. It takes place. Hey, Gaggart, are you there? Yes, I'm here. Okay. I was just wondering, I want to make sure I heard you correctly. Did you say that you thought for a minute that you may lose your eye?

Yeah, because, you know, I had my physician. I had also, I had my doctor and I had also my doctor that surgery on my leg. They were both with me there. So they were talking and it was like very mysterious, you know, doctors coming in, coming out, you know. You know, those things, you know, it's part of fighting, you know. Wow. I could have easily also lost the night, you know. Were you worried?

At that moment, yeah. So, yeah, it was another good thing. Are you medically cleared now to resume sparring, to get hit in the eyes? Is that all okay? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Everything is fine, you know. The doctor that I was seeing was one of the best in Holland. He talked to the commission.

He made sure them. but everything is fine. I got clearance. So we're working towards the, you know, to the 200 Bellator fight. What is it like when you get punched now? Like, do you feel some hesitation? No, no, not at all.

You know, I can take it, you know, it's as good as it was. Of course, anything can happen if you get an impact puncher like that. Of course, it gets, uh, do damage, but,

It's the same as it would if I would have operated. So it's not going to make any difference. By the way, sometimes Bellator doesn't put the title fights on last, and they just announced this Crowe Cup fight against Roy Nelson. Are you going to be the main event, or is that going to be the main event? What are you hearing as far as what goes on last? I don't care. You know, for me it's the same.

Main event, go main event. Who cares? You don't feel like traditionally the title fight usually goes on last Yeah, you know For me it's not important You know, I get to fight People come to see the fights The promotion do, does whatever things is the best

My job is to go and fight I don't care Did you watch, I know you had some You know responses back to Roy McDonald after your fight Did you watch his last fight when he won the belt against Douglas Lima? No, I just, you know, I skipped a little bit. He didn't have a great performance either. But, you know, I'm not the one that's going to go on Twitter and say stupid shit, you know.

So I like Rodney McDonald, actually. I think he's a nice guy, probably, you know. But, yeah, after this fight, hopefully we can get it done, and then he can come show his own skills. But he will come short, you know His style is perfect for me He's smaller We're going to get his ass kick probably

Is that Is that the dream scenario for you Win the middleweight title and then fight Rory? Yeah It's an easier fight for me I like easy fight Easier fight You think that Rory is an easier fight than Carvalio

Yeah No, no no Carvalio's tough Rory is tough But after Cavalio Rory is the best choice, to be honest. How do you feel about Carvalio?

It's kind of hard to gauge, you know, where he is as far as, like, the top middleweights in the world are because he hasn't been fighting the top middle weights. You've fought everyone under the sun, UFC, outside of the UFC. Where do you rank him based on what you've seen? He's, uh, it would be on there. If he would fight the UFC, it would be on the top five, probably. Let's say 10 to 5, we would be ranked somewhere between,

But, you know, this is, you know, he's tough. He's the champion for a reason. You know, he's skilled. He hasn't lost since 2011, I believe. So he's confident. So, yeah, you know, I'm not underestimating. He's a champion for a reason. But I'm coming to get that talk.

Was it a blessing to not fight for the belt in your debut? Is it almost better to get the first fight out of the way and then fight for the belt? Yeah, I think I have a good. less pressure now first fight you know coming in you feel like they brought you and you have to beat everybody but you know at the end of the day you realize a fight is a fight and anything can happen so the pressure is off a little bit and so yeah I don't know maybe if I would have fought for the belt maybe I had a better fight you know any fight every different fight is different so I don't know but I think the nerves are a little bit gone so

I think I will do better. The UFC middleweight division is still kind of a mess, and after what happened, prior to the last fight, a lot of people were like, oh, if only Gager was around, he would have gone on that title show, all.

Do you pay attention to what's going on over there at all? Well, I watch the big fights, you know, as a fan, I like to watch fights, too, you know. But, you know, I don't know. I don't know if I would have got the,

title shot. Maybe if I even Luke Rockled or something like that, maybe. But, you know, you still had Joe Romero there and then I would have to wait again, you know? You never know with those stuff. Okay, so you don't feel like, like there wasn't any part of you that

was remorseful. If, you know, if this would have played out when I was there, I would have finally gotten that UFC. You don't think like that. No, you know, nothing is given, nothing is written. Yeah. You know, what can I say? You know, I made the best.

choice for me and you know I'm fighting for the Bellator belt so for me I'm still fighting for the belt sure and I like if I bid the Carvalio you know doors open I can go up to light heavyweight I can accomplish a title there you know those are things that you know it's different so if I do well in the title fight I win and you know I can I can achieve bigger things so that's the goal just wondering if you've spent a lot of time on your farm in your in your time off and if so how how has that been well i was just training in my where is the where you milk the sheep's uh still yeah i don't know where the you know that you put the cows and stuff that's where you just were no no no i made it into a gym you know oh so i trained

in my backyard let's like and now i'm home and uh so it's easy uh i train too i i train too weeks at my own house and then the rest is in Amsterdam, other places. What did you do with the sheep and the horses that were there or the cows that were there, the stable? Well, I gave him away to the old owner of the property. Oh, wow. I don't have any. I'm not that good with animals.

Okay. So you don't have any animals? No, no, no. It's empty. Around me, I have a lot of animals, like, you know, like the village. Sure, but you don't have any that are like your responsibility that you have to look after.

No, no, no, no. I can't even take care of myself, let alone with animals. But how many people are living there right now? How populated is it? Well, my house, my brother lives next to me. So one, two, three. I think it's six, seven people in the house. Amazing.

It's like a Musasi compound, just for you. Yeah, yeah, everyone comes here, and then at the end of the night, they'll go to their house. And are there any neighbors in sight or is it very... A Musassi Mansion. Yes, Musassi Mansion, exactly. Are there any neighbors in sight, or is it pretty isolated? Well, I have a neighbor. He's pretty into partying and stuff, so it comes handy sometimes.

Is that a good thing or a bad thing? After the fight, it's a good thing. What kind of partying are we talking about, Gagard? Well, last time here was a party with masks and, I don't know, you know, kinky party. Does he do it for you? Does he do it in honor of you? No, no, no. He just invited us and we went there and...

Wow. It would be had a good time. What do you say us? Like your mom is going to, your brother? Everyone's going? Your whole family? No, no, no, no. No, no.

No, no. No. You said us. My cousin, we went there. Wow. A mass kinky party. This sounds amazing. Yeah, not much happened afterwards because we got into a fight and then we had to go home.

A fight with who? Well, some discussion. What do you mean? Other topic. Not important. Okay, wow. I mean, this is the most interesting part of the interview. Was it with the owner, like the neighbor himself?

No, no, no, no, no. Just my brother, he wanted to go home and so he went home. Oh, okay. Interesting. Wow. There's so many layers to you, Gagard. You know, I just try to, I just try to sort of chip away. Yeah, people don't know me.

I'm kinky. No, I'm not. I had no idea. Okay, I think the interview is going the wrong direction. Okay, this, that clip right there. Last time you gave a suck it, Now it's people don't know me. I'm Kinky.

That's the headline. No, no, no. I regret the already saying that. Okay. All right. Well, Gaggard, I'll let you go. This has been a great... It's been great to catch up.

I'm very happy that you're getting this title fight. Finally, we get to see you fight for a belt. It's been a long time. It's been a long time. When's the last time you fought for an actual belt, Gagard? It feels like the Strike Force fight, right? When it means King Mo? Yeah, strike force.

Yeah, I think, you know, I have five belts, so... Yeah. It's going to make six belts. And, you know, I think, you know, that's a pretty big accomplishment in the MMA because, you know, I thought in the, you know, I would get, yeah. So, we see how it goes and then maybe like everybody after this, so. But first, you know, let's get this one. All right. Well, I wish you the best, Gagard.

Thank you so much for the time. And good luck in May at Beltor 200. No problem. Thanks, Ariel. All right. There he is. The one and only Gaggar Musassi, the kinky, Giger Moussassi. As he put it in his own words, returning to action.

in May at Beltaire 200.