MMA Fighting - UFC 256 Post-Fight Show

Episode Date: December 13, 2020

With UFC 256, one of the most memorable events of the year, in the books, MMA Fighting’s Mike Heck, Alexander K. Lee and E. Casey Leydon break down the top storylines from Saturday night’s event from Las Vegas, including the main event for the flyweight title as Deiveson Figueiredo and Brandon Moreno fought to a draw in an instant classic.  Follow Mike Heck: @MikeHeck_JR Follow Alexander K. Lee: @AlexanderKLee Follow E. Casey Leydon: @ekc Subscribe: http://goo.gl/dYpsgH Check out our full video catalog: http://goo.gl/u8VvLi Visit our playlists: http://goo.gl/eFhsvM Like MMAF on Facebook: http://goo.gl/uhdg7Z Follow on Twitter: http://goo.gl/nOATUI Read More: http://www.mmafighting.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network. We're getting silly. We are getting silly here, ladies gentlemen, we welcome you to the second half of our UFC 256 post-fight coverage. This is a live post-fight show following one of the best events. I mean, definitely the best event of 2020. Unbelievable from start to finish. And there's a lot to talk about with all of you.

And let me just say that normally, have like kind of a format like we just kind of wing it for the most part normally we talk about the main event and the co-main event and all the storylines but we're not going to do that we're going to leave that all to you as thank you for joining us at uh 241 a m eastern standard time you guys are animals we appreciate that very much i am mike heck joined by the prince of positivity himself alex k lee welcome sir and e kacy lyden join me from the other side as well so aka we're going to start with you before we go right to the questions. Your thoughts on this event overall, because

I thought it lived up to the expectations, and then some, what say you? MMA is supposed to be fun. And man, this was a fun card tonight. You know, just the fights were great. The finishes, storyline-wise, I don't know if the UFC could have asked for anything better. Maybe a definitive

winner in the main event, but otherwise, they kind of got themselves a sweet sweet rematch served up on a platter, so that's good, too. Like, really, there was no way it could go wrong. If Figaredo won, he completes this, like, fighter of the year campaign. He's this dominant flyaway champion, one that they've been put. I think they've done a good job of pushing and has certainly gained a lot of popularity. Moreno, an amazing story, a guy, of course, in his second run with the UFC, so likable.

The Mexican McLevin, you know, how can you not move for him? So if either of them won, it would have been great. And then we kind of got the unexpected result of a majority draw, but after a, a five-round classic, one of the best fights ever. So even the main event, people who know the people sometimes don't like draws, but even if you're against that, man, you can't say that fight didn't deliver so that was fantastic. And then

Oliver looked incredible. Dern, obviously, they want her to be a star. She held up her end of the bargain. Kevin Holland, five and O. Cedill gone, you know, putting away Junior Dio Sandos, huge win for him. So again, I know we'll be answering questions. I won't go over the whole card, but really, this was on paper, it looked incredible. I know

a lot of fans were looking forward to this one. We were definitely looking forward to this one. It just delivered in every way. So one of the best cards of the year, maybe the best. But I guess we'll have that discussion again further, probably as we get closer to the new year. Absolutely. It is just about award season. We have one more card coming up next Saturday, December 19th. We're all going to be watching. We're all excited about it. Apparently Dana White is not going to be there. He's going on vacation. He's taking the rest of the year off. And you know what? After the year of the UFC had, he probably deserves it. But I'm kind of surprised he's not going to stick around for this one because it's a pretty damn good card.

But let's go right to the peeps, Casey. Let's get right after this thing. Sandy fam said she got her midnight snack for all of this. So let's let's let the peeps speak. It's been a crazy night. John Dagnan, sorry if I mispronounce it. Do you guys think that Figuilla Moreno surpasses Wiley's Yowana as Fight of the Year? So it's interesting, AK, because we came into this card thinking that a lot of these awards were

no brainers, or at least like on the cusp of being no brainers, but now we're coming out of it with all these different discussions. So I know this is a recency bias sport, AK, but as you're sitting here right now, as great as that title fight was tonight, was it better than Zhang Wei v. Yuanian Jacek back in March? I'm going to still lean towards Zhang and JJ.

I'll have to go back and watch it, of course. I think that's a huge factor. So I'm kind of also going against my own recency bias, because as I was watching the fight tonight, I was certainly thinking, I think through like the fourth round, I was like, this is the best fight I've seen this year. Even remembering that Zong and J-JEC existed, I was like, this is the best five of scene.

There was certainly a little more, you know, if you're looking for a fight that had a few more dementia, as it were. There's some great grappling in it. So there's Alamette as well because, you know, Joanna and John was a stand-up fight. Boy, what a stand-up fight it was. Again, one of the best stand-up fights we've ever seen in next martialist history.

So for me, I'll still lean towards that one. I do think it had a stronger finish as well. I remember by the fifth round of that Zhang, JJ fight, like they were still going at it and just landing haymakers. It was what made it so unbelievable. And I don't think this round was bad, but I do think the pace that they cut took a toll on both of them. And it was a more, you know, methodical final round.

Still showed off a lot of their skills, but obviously didn't quite match the high octane of rounds of 1 to 4. So I'll lean to a strong second, but if anyone's telling me that's their paper fight of the year, you cannot go wrong with that. It's one of the best championship fights ever. So what a treat for us that we got two classic USC fights in 2020 like that. Yeah. I'm just going to read this question off of Twitter real quick because Casey and I kind of talked about this. And I will guarantee you that I'm between the links and what the heck.

And A side we're going to be having this discussion even more and more. So leave your thoughts in the comments. For those of you watching, if you thought that this dethroned Wiley in JJ, I tend to agree with you, A.K., although it's very, very close. And the content creation brain of mine immediately says we need to do like a watch along with everybody. Like we can't like put the fights on the screen, obviously, but we can all like just start at the same place and just react to it as both fights as they're happening and just go

through them and then we can kind of make a decision from there. But that's just the way I look at it. But Turbo McGee on Twitter just asked, does the UFC have a schedule pay for you once a month, that's yes. Also, is the weekly card? It's a continuing thing, or is that a makeup because COVID cancellations, because the schedule kind of varies, doesn't it? Yes. So, Turbo, that is, that is true. We missed a lot of cards. So the UFC just kind of made up for it and just going bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. So we appreciate the question. Thank you. I wanted to make sure we got that in there. So I don't know. I mean, it's a good discussion to have that we've so many

options for fight of the year at this point. Like, it seemed like this is a runaway and now it is no longer. And it seems like the gap is at least closed into a discussion at this point. And I think that's a good thing. Did this fight exceed? Well, it had to, but like, did you expect this type of competitive fight? What was your expectations coming into this fight? The main event. I thought, I thought Figgi was going to win by knockout before the championship rounds. So I definitely was, I knew it would be competitive. I don't know if I saw a fight of the year contender coming. But I'll say, I don't know if I remember that the Zhang, you wanted to chase a fight. I don't

know if I remember that, thinking that would be a fight of the year. I knew it would be a great fight. I did not think you'd be as violent and as back and forth as it was. I thought it'd be a little more technical, which it strangely was technical, even as they were like brutalizing each other's faces. Not that I'm talking about, I really want to watch that fight again. God, the fight is so good. So I'd say to Sunday both fights were a little surprising as far as, I wouldn't have pictured them being the one and two best fights the year heading into. I'll tell you that right now. you got to remember in the in the in the in the in the way lee fight too it was the co-main event and there was so much hype for romero and izzie at that oh yeah and um let's not talk about that but uh i did we watch um way lee versus um uh joanna probably about a month ago and my takeaways were man that crowd was awesome as much as i complain about m m mhm clouds for that for that one they you couldn't mess one up you couldn't messed that one up. And the fight was closer than I remember, but I still had Wayley winning the

fight. But man, that fight ruled. That fight ruled. And this fight ruled too. Yeah, this fight went pretty much to expectations. Like, I didn't think, I thought Moreno would be able to avoid damage a little bit better than he did tonight, if we're being honest. I thought that it would be a wild and crazy pace for three rounds. And I thought Moreno would take over in four and five. and I picked Moreto to win by decision. And it almost happened. There were a couple of fights that I picked that, like, nobody else in our staff picked,

and I was so close to getting them right. Peter Barrett, another one. I was the only one on the staff picked Peter Barrett. Everyone knew who was going to come out of a third round submission. Everyone knew that. Come on. Yeah, that's what everybody was not.

Were you like Rogan? Were you trying to retire, Mr. Hooper? Oh, my gosh. We're not going to, we're not going to dwell too much on. I don't want to dwell to much on. We did this the last time. We did this to 555, right? We've already said it criticism that everything we want to say about it.

I think it was even worse tonight. But I check my Twitter if you guys want to see stuff I thought about Rogan's comment tonight. Just absolutely atrocious. But I'm looking at the numbers now. It's horrible. I'm looking at the numbers now for Figurato and Moreno. This was, these are the U.S.C.Stats.com numbers.

So this was not what was on the broadcast. This was about as close as you can get. Significant strikes in total, 137 to 132 for the champion. So again, five significant strike differential. Round one, 28, 28, 28. Round two, 3431 for Figurado. And then rounds three, 25, 21 from Reno, four, 40 to 38.

Two significant strikes differential, and they combined for almost 80 significant strikes. How do you even score? How do you even score these fights? And then round five, I think the clearest one for Figurato, 16 to 8, so doubled them up. A little bit slower pace in other rounds. So again, if people scored this fight for Moreno, I scored it for Figgi.

If they scored for Moreno, this is a very strong case for it. This fight was super, super, super, super close. Definitely needs to be rewatched. I find it kind of puzzling that all three judges, even with the point deduction, scored the third round for Figueroa, like as a 9-9. I did as most people. You did too? A lot of people I saw on Twitter, and again, the fight was so good that the rounds just kind of

blended together for me. You know what I mean? Like I don't even remember which round was which at times because the fight was just so frenetic. Yeah, I didn't either. I stopped scoring after the second round. I was done.

I was absolutely done with it. But it seemed like there were a lot of people out there who thought Moreno won the third round. It should have been the 10-8 for him. Okay. But the one judge in the fifth round scoring it from Moreno, he robbed Figurato.

He robbed Figurato the title tonight. That's a weird one. That's bad. I will say for the third round, I may have been counter-programming in my brain. the Rogan commentary. Again, I want to harp on this, but that's probably where it was the most egregious. I challenge anyone to rewatch the third round and not say that Rogan was out of his damn mind

with how he was calling some of those exchanges because literally there's moments where Figuero was landing clean shots and just nothing. Literally, it's like he couldn't even see him. And then Raino would land like a counter jab or a nice shot to the body and then you know, you get that over-enthusiastic response. So for me, I think in my mind, I might have been, it shifted me the other way, maybe maybe too far in the direction of Figaro. I still think Ferguardo won it,

but I'll have to rewatch that. That was a really, really good round and definitely a good one for Moreno. I just thought, I thought Figueroa still edged out, except for, of course, the stupid fouls. Yeah, I'll admit to my own bias in that round. I was affected by the commentary, just not in the way you would expect.

Yeah, such a separate fight. Guy busy. I really, really, really, really, really wish that the UFC, upon rewatching fights, you can just watch it with natural sounds. No commentary. I want, you just don't get that opportunity to watch a fight with zero commentary. Or at least just Anick or someone or just, I mean, it was like, and I can read his promos for

cyberpunk and whatever. I get that, whatever. But man, it was just, yeah, you're right. I absolutely understand what you feel, AK, because there were some things Rogan were saying. I was just like, oh, it was just like getting in my head. And I just like, I just want to watch a fight. And like, look at this. and not be just annoyed or just angry.

And yeah, it's, it's, the commentary does sway you. Even in round two, I really want to rewatch round two because I scored round two for Moreno, but I see only one judge gave to Moreno. That's not a lot of people online going, round two was clearly figurado. So I was swayed by the, you know, the commentary. So I don't know.

It happens. All right. Yeah, what else we got? I mean, the fight was awesome. freaking good. It's awesome. I don't think it passes. I think I'm in agreement

with both of you gentlemen. I think the fifth round kind of, I mean, both these guys just beat the brakes off of each other and they were probably just like, oh my God, how am I going to do this for another five minutes? It was only because they beat the crap out of each other.

Because round four, I mean, if we do rounds of the year, maybe round four is like rounds of the, I can't remember, actually. I just, round four might have been so good that those guys came out

and they basically kind of rested the first three minutes I felt of round five just to go, you know, but and so for the first three minutes, we just had to focus on Rogan talking about Barano's twisted arm or something. I don't know. No, it was broken, Casey.

He said it was broken. He was so sure that it was broken. Diagnosed from the broadcast table. Incredible stuff. Just like Cubs wants his knee blew out three times. Oh my gosh. But yes, again, focusing on the positive. The fight was amazing.

There's so many parts where I thought the fight could have ended. They were landing some hard, hard, hard, hard shots. Sandy fam how impressive was Dern's stand-up Casey this is your fight This is the Casey main event What did you think of McKenzie Dern stand-up The fight played out exactly the way I thought I was going to play out And I think most

Kind of agreed with that as well heading in That there wouldn't be a lot of ground exchanges It would be mostly on the feet What did you think of Dern stand-up? First of all I thought it was a great fight by both women I thought the decision was correct Dern won the fight her stand-up

ever improving that's what it was it was improving with Dern really proved to me that she is a tough, gritty fighter and that is super important MMA when you want to reach those highest levels of the division

yeah you can be good at Jiu Jiu Jets you can be good strike and you be good wrestling you can be a good mixed martial artist but above that you got to be freaking tough and Dern and Janderoa both proved both proved it

they were freaking tough and that's why and basically Oh, and once, oh, big shout out And big credit to her striking coach, what I'm I forgetting his name. Drillow. Jason Brillo.

When he was just telling Dern, just stop winging it, stop brawling, just throw straight punches, throw straight punches. And that is what won her the fight. In that third round, when she started finally just straightening her jab out and just popping that jab, that jab won her that third round. That jab opened up to her his body kicks,

and she won the third round. she won the third round which won or the fight because up into yeah it was pretty much I think everyone had a one one going into the third the fight was up for grabs in third round and once once Dern just actually just cleaned up her stand up and stopped just winging that one overhand you know which is obviously very dangerous but once she opened up that that jab pop and pop that one of the fight so ever improving and I'm not going to say Dern is going to be fighting for the belt anytime soon or ever maybe but she's clearly improving and she beat a very

good fighter tonight that I thought she was going to lose to. Yeah, it was a good performance. A.K., what did you think? I mean, I think the first round was a little sloppy. Probably both ways, if we're being honest. Second round, I think John D'Ova kind of cleaned things up. Third round, like Casey said, Dern kind of cleaned things up. But, man, just the toughness that she showed in that fight. She broke her nose. And by the

way, we mentioned Jason Perillo in terms of just being a striking coach. What about her and him in the corner? I think about Brad Brookway nose. He's like, nah, dude, you can break your nose. You're good.

It's a cut. It's a cut. It's a good, girl. You're fighting great. Her nose like, sometimes it's okay to lie to your fighter in that in that case. I think we saw that tonight. I'm a fan of McKay one,

Darren. I'm not going to lie. I think McKay one Darren is. Yeah, I think McKay one Darren is legit. No, I mean, look, she's a work in progress.

I'm sure she'd be the first one to say it if you talked about striking. But it is night and day. If you just look to her, some of her earlier Yosef fights, she's always had, again, good athletic and actually some natural power. I remember she rocked Amanda Cooper. You know, she had a bit of a weight advantage to that fight, unfortunately.

But she did, you know, there's some technique behind that too, right? And so the power's there, you know, I think anyone, and that's great. Someone like Perelo has to teach them how to sort of utilize that and add some technique. And most of all, I think when we see a lot of these grapplers, the biggest thing is, and Casey kind of touched upon this is when things start to go badly, they like just panic. when you're not an educated striker you're going to panic things aren't going to go in

you're going to start just trying to tie up you're going to start shooting in for unwise you know unwise take down attempts you're going to turn your back and your opponent that's always like the worst sign

of someone who's just not comfortable striking you're turning your back you're not circling you're literally like running away and that's the sort of thing that if you look at Dern tonight she didn't show a lot of that she also attempted a spinning strike

which actually didn't look that bad like a spinning back fist so there was a comfort level there which is huge so it's not it's not just about the strike that she landed. It's just, it's how she looks in some of the exchanges. Now, uh, Janjadaba is not like, obviously an elite striker, you know, so this still needs to be tested, right? We need to see her against,

for example, I don't think they're going to make this fight happen anytime soon, but like, Atisha Torres would be a really good example of during striking. If you tell me, ask me over now, I think Tisha Torres would, would light her up on the feet, but maybe two fights from now, uh, maybe eight months or down the road a year from then we can talk about it, you know, how much tutelage can we get to get on that level. So a lot of rounding of her agency done. The striking is on its way. I think it's at least, I hope,

three fights away from even talking about a world title shot. But again, the UFC was so quickly, eat the right bull. She'll be fighting for a dollar shop by the summer. I don't think she's ready for that yet, but we've seen stranger things. But yeah, specifically about the striking, boy, it was an enjoyable experience to watch.

I wish it had been more chaotic like Askeran and Maya. That's what I thought things were going to have to break down into. But no, it was a competent striking battle with endurance. Yeah, definitely improved a lot. She earned a good decision. Agreed. Before we get to the next question, I do have to concede something real quick because one of the big talking points heading into this week, especially during the way-in show on Friday, is surreal gone.

How do we pronounce this man's name? Because we've heard gone, we've heard gain, we've heard Ghana. John Anick on Friday said Ghana. On Saturday he said Ghana. So we're like, okay, I guess it's gone. And then Bruce Buffer announces him the winner and says Ghana. And now we're like, what the hell? But luckily, MMA fighting has come through with a final decision because Jose Young's,

before Cyril Gone left the press conference, asked the final question and said, how do you pronounce your last name? And he said, gone. So gone is the winner He also said But in France It's gone But if you said gain

That's okay Okay I'm going I'm going with French Canadian Which is where he spent a lot of time Fighting I know he is from France So I was And by the like

It's Cyril Okay Cyril gone You got Cyril You got a little You got a little tongue in there Sometimes Fierdor

Fierdor Theodore. But yeah, no. Annik knows. He addressed on the broadcast. He said it, I think, after the fight, he was like, he's like, Celigan. That is what we're going with. He's like, yeah, maybe it's not 100% correct.

I don't know. But, you know, Annick is definitely a tastemaker when it comes to pronunciation. So I think this is what we're going with for now. But who knows? Who knows next time? Dave, with the question, do we get Kevin Holland versus Israel out of Sanya in 2021. I'm going to jump on this first and just say no, only because we don't know when

Adasani is going up to 205 fight Janbovich. And if he wins that fight, he ain't coming back to 185 anytime soon because he's going to go up and fight John Jones. I think we all know that that's what's going to happen if he beat John Boehovic. So I think it would all depend on what happens in that fight. But gutwise, I say no. I just, I think if Holland, I'm not saying Holland won't fight for a bell. in 2021 because the guy will probably fight 11 times in 2021 and earn his way to a title shot

and just run through everybody in the division because he's just that active and is that willing to fight at any point. I just don't think he fights out of Sanya in 2021 because of how everything is sort of shaping up at this point. A.K., what do you think? Do you think we see that fight in 2021? No, it's certainly not in the plans. I'm certain that the matchmakers are not even looking at that matchup right now.

they want they want to build towards the uh israel john jones super fight that's that's their number one objective for twenty one you know if they can get that fight pinned down it's everything else they're playing with house money at that point that's that's a huge fight uh i mean can it happen yes it totally can happen we don't know fighters drop out opportunities change uh maybe uh is he loses to yon blovich and then decides okay back to one 85 permanent for me i need a challenger who's who's next in line, Holland would be right there. So I think a lot of the answer is assuming that he beats Jan, which I would not assume at all, by the way.

I would pick Izzy, but that's not an easy fight by any measure. I've picked against Jan many times and been wrong. So, no, it's not in their plans. But I'm a little more optimistic than Mike that it could happen because I do think of Izzy comes back to 185. He'd defend his title at least a couple of times. And Holland very likely would be one of those defenses. Can we change the question?

because I think the question really is, will Holland be fighting for a title by 2021? It's not, I mean, scheduling-wise, it might mess up, but either a title or an interim title. Is Kevin, basically, is Kevin Holland that good? Is he the real deal? Or is he just a guy in a streak who beats an ancient fighter? I want someone on, this kind of goes to someone,

another question we just got on Twitter from Nathan, who said, did Holland change where he thought his ceiling was tonight? And did he move from Fun Fighter to legitimate contender with this win? I think for a lot of people he had already moved into legitimate contender. Yes, he didn't have that big name. That's sort of what was so perfect about this Jacques-Aix match-up is that this was the name he needed. You know, we knew, we know he's talented. We know he can win fights.

Five and O in 2020. He's one of the only, he's one of only two fighters to do that, I think. I don't know what, Neil Magny did it, maybe? Three. I think there's one more. I think there's one more. I think there's one more. Yeah, four-to-old.

He won five and O? Who? I remember some Roger Fuerreter. Oh, wow. I have to look it up. Yeah, someone told me that. I actually have no recollection of that. I remember seeing the name pop up.

So it's a very rare thing to do. We know he went fights. So a lot of people, I think by the time he'd beaten, I mean, Darren Stewart Frye, I know it wasn't impressive, but that was probably one of the higher rank guys he beat. But just by the streak he was on, I think a lot of people were already talking about him as being contender. I needed some convincing.

This fight convinced me, no question. Insane knockout the fearlessness that has made me hesitate to call him a contender is clearly one of his assets, the willingness to go to the ground with a guy like Jacques a day, the willingness to stand with a guy like Joaquin Buckley, he's very confident in all of his abilities. And maybe that'll come to bite him at some point. It hasn't.

So for me, the ceiling has raised, and I do see him as someone who could be three in the division, top 10 for a long time, and yes, someone who was challenged for a USC total. Roger Huerto went 5 at 0 in 2007. Wow. Was that the year he was on the cover Sports Illustrated? Probably, I'm assuming.

Yeah, it was John Halverson, Leonard Garcia, Douglas Evans, Alberto Crane, and Clay Gwita. Wow, that's a good year. Roger Werta versus Clay Guida was one of those fights that made me an MMA fan. I just, I was just, I didn't know too much about the sport back then. You know, I just kind of, I think I was just started working in this sport. I think I was working for Elitexie at the time. I remember watching that fight, just thinking, this fight is freaking up. amazing because it was like a mixed martial arts fight and i think that's the fight where roger

worked actually dropped clay guido or maybe knocked him out from his knees like they were scrambling he sprawled got his knees and just like wow it was just an amazing fight man roger words to talk who knew yeah but talk about a guy who looked like talk about a guy who would look like talk about a guy who would look like he'd be a future lightweight champion like for sure and never even got a title shot uh neil magni also has not gotten a title shot so but could someday you know that's not rolled out but hasn't yet so fingers crossed what you really got roger No. My goodness.

My goodness. Well, you know. My goodness. You are not a believer. He's in Belator. I think he's in Belator. But UFC, talking about UFC titles, yeah.

It's not going to happen for Roger probably. It could happen for Neil Magny still, but hasn't yet. So hopefully 5 and 0 does not turn out in a year. It does not turn out to be some kind of weird curse. But just remember where it was mentioned first. Not that I believe in that sort of thing. Yeah. I've been following Kevin Holland for a while.

even before he's in the UFC. When he got in the contender series, I was like, all right, here he goes. I feel like this is the guy that most people who followed him, like if you're from the Dallas,

Texas area, anywhere in Texas, and you were watching Kevin Holland go to the ranks, I think you expected this guy that we've seen this year to come out of his shell. And I think we're starting to see it now.

I think, and it started with the, the Fluffy Hernandez win. Like, I remember asking him. I was like, this is the Kevin Holland people,

waiting to see since you got in the UFC and he's like you're right and now we're seeing it tenfold this is a man who completely took advantage of the situation I saw Tristan Gordonette's question Yeah That knockout was insane

Yeah that was insane Where did that call for what was Are we actually talking about John's knockout now Yeah I mean like We're like to be very measured and calm here especially when we're asked a question we want to, you know, directly get to it.

But that knockout was, I wasn't even sure what happened at first. Because I think the initial angle, I was like, it was hard to tell that he caught him so clean. And caught him with a clean one before he landed the one that actually knocked him out. He, like landed with a super hard shot. And I heard it. But it's almost like I didn't believe what I was seeing. I was like, that was weird. Like that punch should have made such a loud sound.

And then short, short, he lands another hand and just puts him out real bad, too. Like Jack and I was kind of trying to stand up after. And they were kind of, they had to keep kind of guiding him to stool. I was like, let him sit down. Let him lie down. You're going to sit down. You are. Take a nap, bro.

He's going to, Jacques Carre is going to watch that one later and fly just be like, how, no way. Like that's, he definitely doesn't remember it. And he's going to see it and be like, how is that even possible? Because this guy's seen it all and you probably not seen that one. Dude, he's been not, that's, as great as a career as Jacques Carrey had, that's now two vicious knockouts in his career in someone's in someone's guard. That's just, that's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just a good. Kind of a bummer, man. Yeah, you're talking about describing that knockout.

Actually, when it happens, you know, of course, as a fan, I'm just going, you know, screaming. Esther, my wife, is in the other room, and she's like, what happened? What happened? I'm like, oh, Kevin Holland just knocked out of Jacques Rae. She's like, oh, what happened? Describe it. I was just all like, you're going to have to see this.

I'm just like, I don't know. I was like, you kind of punched him. Weird, I'm not sure. He wasn't even like sitting down or on his back. He was like in that in between sort of your butt kind of balanced on his butt phase and just whips the arm out. And somehow lands right on that button. I've never, I've never seen. I have never seen.

You know, we've all watched MMA a very long time. And I remember, you know, years ago, Dana White would say at press conferences, you know, every card has like that holy shit moment. You know, something happens you've never seen before. I don't say, I don't think I get that same holy shit moment for every card now, but that was a holy shit moment. You know, like, I have never seen that before. That was like, actually, I was texting my coach, my MMA coach. I was like, we were just talking about it. And what it happened is like, you can't train for that.

You don't train that. That's just something, you're just a fighter and you're just tough and smart and quick and fast and powerful. And, like, that's just something that happens. It's not a position you ever train for. you just see a guy's face and you punch it. I don't know. Who would throw that? Who would throw that strike in that situation?

You're not going to land anything effective or so I thought until tonight. Compare that knockout to Chase Hooper. Remember that whole, he was sitting there. Who's his opponent he was fighting? Oh, Peter Barrett. Peter Barrett. And guess what? And guess what?

It works. It worked. It worked. Chase Hooper. When the reports come in this week, six months, six months better suspension for Chase Hooper. That's all I'm saying. That hands are the hands of a mess. That punch that Kevin Holland landed that set it all up, it was like a pro wrestling punch.

It was like a comeback punch. Like in a main event. You see like the two guys just on their knees, like trading punches, the boo-e. There was no boo. It was just yay. And then, yeah, yay, yay, yay. And each punch Kevin Holland was throwing Was coming from a higher angle

And coming down more ferociously Yeah Is Jacer going down backwards Like a weird yoga position Like Yeah Oh what a What a madman

And Kevin Holland In his post-fited interview Because he's just Everyone knew he was going to get 50K You say he might buy himself A Lincoln Continental I like that man Classy man

He's had a He's had a lawyer He's had a lot When I talked to him What the heck he said When like early on in his career He used to drive a Lincoln Continental From Texas to Louisiana

So he said that He said that He goes yeah And I see alligators He goes now I'm gonna You know Just go to Vegas And I'm gonna hunt another alligator

And that's what he did The dude is The dude just gets He's so marketable Like He doesn't even want to be the damn video game anymore. He said he heard the video game sucks,

and I just didn't want to be in it anymore. Hold on. He should get his own video game. We need Kevin Hollins' M.M.A. You know, when they used to do, like, you know, Magic versus Bird, you know, and actually, Ken Giefie Jr.'s home run baseball. You know, he needs, we need Kevin Hollins.

I don't even know what described, but like wild-ass cage fighting, because that's the style he was using there was wild-ass, because you just don't throw punches like that. Wild-ass. You don't throw part of that. You're not supposed to. You're not supposed to.

You know, does the U.S. This is still Illambia combat basketball, but. Thank you. Does the U.S. still do, when they do their intros, do they say what fighting discipline? Oh. Sometimes, yeah.

They do. Wow. And, you know, Kevin Holland, specializing in wild-ass martial arts. You can't tell this guy, he can't do something. You cannot tell him that he can't do something. All right, doesn't believe in it. He'll go, he'll do, he'll do anything.

I'm going to go, can we go, I'm going to throw my own questions. I haven't seen this question, but I think this is a big thing to talk about. Talk about tonight's card and sense of, like, just a changing in the guard. I didn't really think of that coming into this card, but look, Charles Laverer, demolishing Ferguson, a long-time vet. Surreal Gain, Seril Gan, demolishing Junior DeSanto, a long-time vet. And then there was another big one. uh, wait, uh, you said,

Kevin Holland and Shakira. Oh, yeah, Kevin Holland and Jacquerade. Yeah. Just like, man, like,

are these guys that knocked out those guys? Are they the, like, is Kevin Holland now the new Jacques, and since, like, we,

Jacaray has been a top tier middle weight for, I don't know, a decade now. Can we expect Kevin Holland, surreal, uh, why am I,

I keep, you have so many fights. Well, can we expect to these guys, Oliver to be like basically premier fighters for the next decade. Well, I mean, UFC is hard. I think it's hard to hold on in that ranking for a long time.

It depends with division and heavy weight. Certainly you can stay in there for a while. The turnover in talent is not as high. But I mean, for the next two years, is Charles Olivera probably a top five, top 10 guy? Yeah, of course. Kevin Holland, he's a bit younger. And again, you know, middleweight.

If you told me he's in the top 10 for next three or four years, yeah, he's taking that spot now. See, LaGan for sure. So they'll have gone now. Who knows? Maybe he takes one of those heavyweight spots for the next five, six, seven years. So if you're just asking in general, yeah, are these guys going to be the names we see in the rankings for quite some time? Yeah, definitely people get used to it.

These guys aren't going anywhere unless one of them goes on a Habib, like, run and just decides to retire from just clearing stuff out, which at this point, Olivera looks like he could do it. I'm going to be honest with you. Yeah, I would agree. We could even throw up Raphael Fiziv in that. equation beating out to Moikano. That was a that's a pretty damn impressive

performance in his own right. And thank you, Dana White, for confirming what, I mean, nobody saw it because me and Casey were kind of having a debate on like who should have got the performance of the night,

whether it should have been Cub Swanson or Raphael Fiziv. And the talk was it was a cleaner knockout, maybe the stoppage was wrong, but Dana White said he hated how the production shot that because Wicano tried to get up to

his feet and he couldn't get up. He just kept falling back down, but nobody's not on the broadcast because they were just showing Fiziv celebrating. I think they did show a replay of it, and I still, I still disagree with, I'm okay with the stoppage, but I really understand. I really think Moikano deserved a chance to get out of that, because as soon as he did, as soon as he did drop, his head did hit the map, but he was pulling guard. He was, he was grabbing Fiziz's biceps, which is what you should do. And he was doing what he was doing what he was doing. He was doing the correct thing to do is just I just wish he got a little bit more

leeway but that's that's a sport and I get why the stoppage happened I mean I get why the stop the why the ref stopped it he got hit for three piece and he went down hard I get it but I had no problem with stoppage but we have seen fighters come back from a lot worse than that

yeah and this is very different from the JDS thing the JDS thing was just that was that was that was pure I was clean there wasn't any it was not the very much about that I would have at that. What else you got? What do we got from the people? Not really a question.

Oh, but here. Oh, I already got to answer for this, but I want to go and put it out there. John, getting two questions on. Next, two former kickboxes, Moy Thai fighters going out at 155. Count me in. A.K., we're going to be talking more about this on, onto the next one. Maybe we'll

defer to Casey, because by the way, onto the next one, we're running down all the winners, all the winners and a couple of losers and one of the co-champions but uh kaysie is this is this the fight you want to see kisi as soon as that by end it is absolutely the fight i wanted to see but then the mama manager mr danny rubinstein tweeted at me and said this fight will not happen because they both are tiger moitai guys and they train together oh that's right there we're right no they would Question answer. Unless it's for the belt.

So unless we want to gather a bunch of money for them to fight for just for fun, they're not fighting each other. But those guys are both super exciting, so they have plenty of guys to fight. So we're good. Yeah. Or hopefully, you know, when this, you know, a year from now or whenever, hopefully sooner, this COVID thing passes, head down to the gym. And maybe you'll get to see Fiziv and Redel go a few rounds. So, yeah, but very cool match on paper. Obviously, now it doesn't seem like it's.

going to happen. Let's stick with the moitai. Can Gond hang with the top heavyweights? What do you think, A.K.? I mean, we talked about this to the previous show. Yeah, I mean, I think you know what I mean. We're talking about the cream of the drop.

I think one of the special things about Gahn is that people who only see sort of his record and say, okay, he finishes people. He must be one of those guys. He's like a kind of classic young berserker heavyweight. He's not that at all. He's really, really patient.

People should watch the Tanner Bozer fight where both guys look really good because they're both really skilled, really skilled patient guys. Bozer's a lot more experienced than him. So that's kind of what made what made Gons win so impressive. People shouldn't think like, oh, he didn't finish Bozer. I'm like, no, Bozzer's really tough. If anything, that decision might have been the best, most impressive win of Gons career. He's a finisher, but he's very patient. And you see him in there with Dos Santos, who's I think one of the best technical.

a strikers we've ever seen at heavyweight for gone to be able to to be in there with him and a more experienced guy former ufc champion and look completely in place completely like he belonged there and then of course winning the fight uh yeah i mean he's he's he could definitely can hang i think he could put him in there with an overreem and i think he'd accommodate himself very well i think he's right up there with jarsino i think could be good um i'm not saying to him in there was steppe miotr just right away of course but a derrick lewis honestly if you put him in there with Derek Lewis, I don't know if I would favor Lewis. I might go with Gone. That's how

I'm impressed I am with this guy's boys so far. He's just very, very, very mature. Which is for a guy with only his seventh, this is a seventh pro fight, it's really rare that you see that sort of thing. Yeah, it's tough because there's a part of me that doesn't want to rush him. But then there's a part of me that's like

we kind of have no choice. Like I'm not saying throw him up there against Stepe like you said or the Yangonos of the world, but you threw him in there with Derek Lewis, I'm fine of that. Like if Curtis Blades can't come back like in the next couple of months, let's just say like Derek Lewis still wants

fight in January. And from all accounts, it seemed Derek Lewis thought maybe the 16th or the 20th, something in that neighborhood, they were going to try to rebook that fight with Curtis Blades. But apparently that is not the case. Blades will not be ready for that date. It would probably have to be in February if they're going to

rebook that. If Derek Lewis is like F it, I want to fight in January, why not? I am totally down to see you've gone and Derek Lewis. That fight's just going to be insane. It'll be wild. I'd pick on. I'd pick on.

Wow. This guy's legit. I think this guy's legit. But you make a good point, AK, I really enjoyed his patience. I enjoyed just, actually,

I enjoyed his very technical moitai. He looked like a, he looked like a moitai fighter in there, but moitai doing M. And, yeah, the way he closed his distance, the way he, I think actually,

Rogan actually, one thing he did say, that was nice. I think he said kind of, I think he said he had off speed kicks. You know, it's not, no, just he changed, he changed the speed of his kicks, things like that. Which I thought, yeah, he was doing that. And great elbows, great, great finishing. And just seems like a nice guy to hang out with.

Just to the cool, dude. He looks like a welterweight in there, his movement, his agility. Yeah, he just, you couldn't tell that this guy's a heavyweight. He is just so, he just moved so, so well. What about the Dantel Mays fight? I think that was, like, one of my favorites. gone fights because he just beat him up on the feet for like 14 minutes plus. Yeah.

And then he's like, you know what? I'm just going to heel hook him. I'm just going to heal hook him. I want the finish. I want the finish. And guess what? He got 50 Gs for that. So that's a decision to go for it.

It paid off real well for him. So yeah, you just don't see that. I appreciate that because he knows in that we got the hill hook. He's like, you know what? I can take this risk. I'm going to go for it. So he's fighting smart. So he's in there and he just, he's very self-aware.

Like, okay, I have this fight. now I can kind of try things. I only try in the gym, you know, so I like that about him. He's wise beyond his MMA years. That's for damn sure. That time he spent fighting in Canada, I'm telling you, it changes you.

It makes you a better man. That's right. Mahab and Nur, after seeing Oliver Adominee Ferguson, do you think the Habib versus Tony fight would have gone the same? It's an interesting question. I think that was like one of the main things that made that fight so interesting.

is like, oh, what happens if the fight gets to the ground and Habib takes him down and Tonings on his back? Like, we all thought it'd be a big scramble fest and Ferguson's defensive jiu-jitsu would be kind of like a, I'm not going to say krypton knife for Habib, but definitely something that he would have to think about. But after seeing that, Casey, are you just like,

there's a part of you that maybe the fight was a little overrated between Ferguson and Habib? I'm a bit the wrong person to ask because I kind of always thought that fight was overrated. I think we might have talked about it during the post presser, but I've always I've thought Habib was the best, best lightweight in the world for a long time. He's been the best lightweight in the world to me for the last five, six years, way before he was actually champ.

And the Ferguson thing, it was fun to talk about because what, they tried, it was like, they tried it out like 20 times. And it took a global pandemic to stop the last one. You know, so, no, no, I, even, Prime Tony, I, he was, that would have happened.

It might have been even like a worst beating. It would have been a lot more elbows to, from the top from, instead of, instead of like arm bars and triangles, it would have been, um, Tony Ferguson getting his jaw ripped off probably,

something like that. So, uh, yeah, it would, it would have gotten the same. AK, what do you think?

And I think what this performance actually did for Charles Olivera is that narrative that really pissed me off and probably, a lot of other people off that Habib was afraid. Habib was afraid that he pulled out of the Ferguson fight because he's afraid of him at UFC 249.

That was a thing. That was a very popular thing before UFC 249. And I was just like, what? What are you talking about? Now we can officially like put that to bed here. But do you feel that way? Like do you feel like watching the Olivera performance

that would have gone the same, if not worse? If he, if Ferguson actually got to fight Habib, especially in 2020? I'm glad Mohamed asked this question because I'm certainly someone who should be held accountable for my opinion that I, for the longest time,

was driving the Ferguson is the man to beat a big train. It was all on, much to the chagrin of our own, Jed Michoud has been long been on the Ferguson would have no chance against Habib. He has argued that on many occasions. I always thought Ferguson was to do it.

I've spoken very highly of Ferguson's scrambling ability, But I do think tonight we saw, boy, if you are an elite grappler with great top control and you're calm, I mean, scrambling is great. But when you're in those, when you're in bottom position, you're in bottom position. And unless if you have a guy like Olivera or Habib who just almost rare, almost never makes mistakes when they're trying to pass when they're when they're, when they're, when they're, when they're, when they're, when they're, you can't control. It's their performances are flawless when they get on the ground. the scrambling ability it just almost doesn't matter you could be the best scramble

in the world the best control guy is always going to beat the best scramble that's how I see it now that's how I understand it now and maybe I should have known this before yeah I think

even if you take the best version of Ferguson because people today like Ferguson you know the the the gate chief fight was a sign of Ferguson's decline he's going to be 37 I think or 38 in February early next year

okay so maybe you want to say this isn't the best version. I still think that the 80% version of Ferguson beats the majority of fighters of 155. So this is not to take anything away from Charles Oliver. I think if you take the best version of Ferguson and you took the best version of Habib, I think based on what we saw tonight, you can sort of have some idea that that Habib is that matchup 99 out of 100 times. So yes, I am officially retiring my Ferguson was the man to beat Habib and Megamatov narrative tonight. I was, we'll never know we're sure because the fight won't happen,

but I can say I was wrong in driving that train. Oliver looked amazing tonight. I can say you're wrong too, A.K. Go for it. Thank you, case. Thank you for helping with that. I was struggling to get the words out. Thank you.

But yeah, based on what, yeah, for sure, they're not the same fighter at all, Olaver and Khabi, but I mean, I get what people are saying, the grappling dominance, what we saw tonight, yes, I do think Khabi could do a similar thing to Ferguson and would beat him. It must have been,

so frustrating for Tony Ferguson tonight because he survives that, like, insane arm bar. And normally when that happens, like, the momentum of fight will, like, totally shift because you're just like, wow, how did that not get finished? Like, you can see frustrations, mountain in fires, but Oliver was com cool collected. And Ferguson, what a lot of people, like, don't think about

because the fight was so dominant, is that, like, he tried to scramble and he did some really nifty work off of his back, trying to get back to his feet, but Olivera was just three steps ahead of him. Every time Ferguson was like, ah, yes, I got back to my feet, Oliver would, like, throw him up in the air

or use his feet to, like, just slam him back down. Like, no matter what Ferguson did, Oliver was just all over him. Like, there's nothing he could have done. It was just so crazy. What a performance from Charles Olivera tonight. What about Tony Ferguson? What's, you know, we kind of talked about, you know,

crossroads fights, crossroads fight. Well, clearly this thing, I mean, we talked about, you know, I think even the little pre-show, you know, well unless Ferguson gets like knocked out in the first round, I think whatever happens is still Tony Ferguson. I know he didn't get knocked out in 30 seconds, but this is about just as bad.

I think there's still a lot of great matchups for him. I don't know. I think matchups are going to be great for him because he's Tony freaking Ferguson. Like Diego Sanchez, people still want to see Diego Sanchez. I think Tony Ferguson, we'll see. But, you know, he's always going to be an exciting fighter. You know, in sense of media fans,

is he still is he ever going to be a top five fighter again or maybe he still does i don't know this might have knocked him out of there um gosh it's so hard to say that because again i i want to lean towards giving olivaura more credit than necessarily taking away right from from what ferguson did but but both can be true you know again both can be true olivera is is peaking and that is best and maybe tony ferguson is a little bit past his prime you know both can be true i'd rather not dwell on that but It has to be, you know, you have to talk about it. You know, it can't just be, it cannot be dismissed.

It cannot be dismissed. So it's certainly possible. So, yeah, what's next for him? I don't know. Again, a lot of good fights, but you're right. Is he, do we, are we still focusing on can he contend? Are we just looking for fun legacy fights now? I'm sure he'll have something to say about it soon.

I would like to see him just do nothing for like the next several months. Like, I don't want to see crazy training montages. I don't want to see anything. I want to see him just like relax. Like just chill out. Yeah. Do something relaxing. Find a way to get your brain off out of the fight game for a while.

Like if he took all of 2020 off or 2021 off wouldn't upset me at all. I actually think it would probably be a good thing for him. You know, this has been a crazy ass year for him. I mean, between. Yeah. Losing Habib again. Then he's fighting Gaetia at 249 on this date. Does the weight cut.

Remember it gets canceled the last second. Remember it was supposed to be at Tachi Palace. Remember that whole thing? Right. Oh, my God. Don't forget Tachi Palace. You know, UFC's going back to Totsch Palace, remember? Never forget Tachy Palace.

And then the Jacksonville thing and all in the beating he took in that fight. And then the whole Dustin Poree thing in October and, you know, trying to. Oh, my God, you're right. I forgot about that. I mean, just so much. And then like the Michael Chandler thing and get I mean just the man has gone through a lot the last few years. And it started like it started with the torn ACL and then coming back and like getting in those wars right away. Like the, the Saroni fight was a war.

The Anthony Pettus fight was a war. Like the dude has just, I'd like to see him. He's had injuries. And even like during those injuries like you tear ACL most year, most of these guys if they're just super duper durable are back in a year. Like look at Rob Fon Took him a year to get back Cub Swanson Took him a year to get back

Tony Ferguson was back in like seven months The dude just like Vigorously rehabed and did everything he could To like just defy the odds And defy what doctor's orders And all these crazy things

Because he's Tony freaking Ferguson He's a madman I would like to see him just Relax Spend time with your family Do it join a men's baseball league Just throw dudes out from right field Like he loves baseball

Go in there and just get up of saves in a summer baseball league and just relax get out of the fight game for a little while like just you're opening up a gym focus on that focus on training the next guys but just take some time for yourself man like that's what i want to see i don't think he's done by any stretch of the imagination the skill sets there i just think at this point like he just needs a break from being a professional fighter for a little while and maybe the right matchmaking maybe when he comes back from that year let's see how the lightweight landscape looks and let's find a reasonable

matchup for him because yeah there's a lot of guys he could beat there's a lot of guys who could do a lot of damage to him and more damage to him I'd just say than he's taken in the last two fights which is considerable so yeah let's let's find the right matchup too I think that's just important I have the matchup I'm just getting

a little onto the next one exclusive before the matchup is it starts to the P and it ends with all Felder that's the fight to I would keep Mr. P. Elder or whatever you talk about. I would keep him so far away from Tony Ferguson right now. I agree and disagree with your point, Mike.

I think I don't want to say they're the same person, but I think Tony Ferguson is a bit like BJ Penn. His identity is a fighter. His identity is just being an athlete. And I think, what you said, play softball, be in a co-recked softball league. As long, if he leaves the MMA fighting, if he leaves MMA for a little bit,

I do hope he stays athletic and plays community softball or something. But I'm afraid with too much time on his hand, you know, idle hands and Tony Ferguson probably could be a dangerous thing. But if Tony Ferguson comes back and say three months, please give him a guy outside the top 15. I want squash matches. Just like Tisha Torres got a showcase fight tonight. guys like Tony Ferguson needs he deserves a showcase fight just some some rando that wins a

contender series hey you get the face Tony's Ferguson now oh something like that that's what tony Ferguson that's what I wish would happen for to him if this is boxing 20 Ferguson will fight about five contender series guys in a row but uh it's not boxing it's UFC but uh I hope they treat Tony Ferguson that way just give him some but a body not not not not not not something that we've even heard of. I feel that's what he needs right now. Ferguson is one of the high-ranked guys who actually would be open to that kind of idea.

He would fight. Because look, Charles Olivera was a guy, a lot of the higher-ranking guys in the top five didn't want to fight. There just wasn't anything to gain. He's insanely dangerous. And again, if you're in the top five, you can only lose your spot when you face a guy like him. Because Olivera was probably just in the outside looking in. I imagine maybe six

was the highest most people would have him. What was he in the official rankings? I should know this. I have this. I take this. He was seventh in the official rankings going into this fight. Really? Yes, I think he's behind RDA. I think RDA jumped him when he came back or two like me. So I think there's a lot of, again, a lot of people, again,

there's a lot of good reasons for the guys in the top five not to face him. Plus, they're all kind of tangled up and booked against each other. So I'm not saying anyone that was scared. I'm just saying strategically, why would you want to fight a Doe Bronx? And of course, Ferguson said, screw it, I'll do it. I'll do it, you know. it's a tough opponent, chance for him to get a win. But, I mean, he certainly had less to gain.

And he did anyway. Really, he'll fight anybody. Mike, is it okay if I move on? Because I do want to address someone's comments. Yeah. So, Mike, you mentioned, you mentioned Cub Swanson, someone else who had a year-long layoff. Also, dealing with an injury, rehabbing a pretty severe knee injury. Eric and CO on Twitter, I assume that means Eric in Colorado.

He just wanted to point out that we talked a lot about changing the guard. But one guy who did not lose his spot was Swamp. He wasn't facing a young oncomer. He was facing another veteran. Certainly, Pineda has a lot to gain from adding a guy like Swanson to his resume, because he's got some good wins, but no one with the name value of Swanson.

So this would have been big. And Swanson put on an absolutely wonderful, follow watch performance and put Pineda away. So that was one of the best stories tonight. And I just want to make sure we talk about this, because that was really, really, really a great moment. this is a night of durability because Cub Swanson

dealt with a lot in that first round Pineda was scoring he was landing big shots and I think and like a lot of his past fights especially since the the Georgie loss

which shouldn't have been a loss to begin with he's just been running he's just been rifling through everybody like the way he fought Cub Swanson early tonight finished almost every guy he fought leading up to that fight

and Cub just didn't go away In fact, it made him stronger for some reason, which is just wild. Cubs Swanson is a G. That was impressive. He overcame that first round and just stole the momentum and then just was like, the hell of this. I'm putting this thing away. That was awesome. What a great performance tonight.

And with a torn knee. Multiple torn knee and his leg. Durability. Tor every. No, but you made a good point. Just durability. I talked about it to McKinsey Dern. that's her being so durable in that fight I was like okay now now I can say she has the ability to be an elite straw weight and we all we already know cup Swanson's elite straw weight and he showed it tonight just make Paneda might have actually been the better fighter but Cub Swanson won the fight he wanted to decide decisively too he's just durable I think just better strategy just is he could stay focused in the fight he he knew how to control his um his energy during the fight that I feel like I'm trying I feel like Paneda came out pretty

be tired in the second round, or he at least, you know, he gave the physical appearance that he was tired. But, uh, Cub Swanson, man, that felt, you know, you know, you know, you're trying to be biased, man, but, you know, when you're watching at home, but when Cub won, I think, I think all the fans and, you know, everyone, all of us were a little bit, like, good for Cub. M.MA doesn't always make you feel good, even when you're entertained. It doesn't, you know, when you see a nasty knockout, I wouldn't say I feel good. Like, you know, let's say we saw the walking, Buckley, K.O., let's talk about the Wachian Buckley-Co. We all loved it. We all loved it. One of the, you know, most exciting most of the year. I didn't feel good after I saw that

K.O. You know what I mean? When they showed in Pekasanana, the way he fell, I didn't feel good inside, you know. I felt good after Swanson's win. It just, there was just something so he's, I think it's fair to say an elder statesman of the sport. I'm not, I don't mean to say he's close near the end of his career or anything. Who knows? He could fight for another five years. But the way he carries himself, he's an elder statesman. He's a great ambassador. He's a hell of an exciting fighter. I mean, I'm not to time about a guy who's getting by. on his being a good citizen. His fights are amazing.

He's a fan favorite for a reason. And facing another guy really tough veteran, like Mike said, a guy who's just been mowing people down with his fighting style, meeting him right there in the cage and just showing why he's, again, just such a skilled, such a professional guy. And again, coming back from a year off, so tough. And he looked like he was in amazing shape for a guy who's been out for a year. So I cannot wait to see this guy fight again.

And really one of the positive stories of this year for sure. I like his mustache, too. Just saying. Yes. Oh, and if I got a mention. His post by quote, he got, he gets choked up and he's like, oh, you know, I was in there and I was just thinking about my kids. I'm their superhero, you know, and guys, I'm not made of stone. Okay, I'm not made of stone.

It got a little dusty. It got a little dusty over here. It was a great moment. I got emotional with him. Just a little bit. I'm a soy boy. I'm a soy boy. Okay.

What do you want for me? I'm a boy. I'm big time. We all know this. He's some steak, man. Get some protein. Yeah, I need to stay. Yeah, definitely needs more meat in my diet.

Oh, man. What else we got? What else we got? Someone in the comments mentioned the Levittslam, by the way, as an example of, yeah, like something you enjoyed but didn't necessarily. No one felt good after that. No one felt good. No, nobody did. Especially the Wyman.

It's true. Yeah. It's up there. Yeah, of course. Yep, Josh. Feel good one of the year? Absolutely. maybe maybe the number one again we're going to look well you know what we do guys you know we'll be doing a lot of year and review stuff as it go on articles we talk about it of course on all the various shows that we do for you guys so a lot of of the year discussions coming up um so look please guys stay tuned for that and yeah send your suggestions in all that stuff because we need help figuring some of this stuff out i mean fighter the year it's just a mess oh boy uh trista gordette you have connor versus porier you have chanler versus geishy maybe assuming connor versus porier is for the

lightweight title, would you book Olivera for the title shot or have him face the winner of Chandler versus Gaichi? You know what? I liked exactly what Olivera said. Given the winner, Connor versus Porier, no matter what. He's earned it. That performance

and people talk about how great Justin Gaci looked against Tony Ferguson and he had his dominant moments in that fight. He was sitting in with some big shots, but he didn't big brother Tony Ferguson like Charles Olivera did tonight. I mean, that was just really, really impressive stuff. And I have no issue with Oliver, Colin, for the winner of

Connor versus Roy, whatsoever. If we're assuming Habib is retired, which, again, I do think he'll fight again someday, but I'm respecting his retirement for now. I think he might come. I don't know if he'll come back on all this Dana White. I'm meeting up with him stuff, whatever. This is, by the way, reasoncy bias to the max. Charles Oliveira looked to me like the best lightweight in the world tonight just with the skill set he's the all-around skill set he showed i know people are going to say hey

gathji just beat and finished ferguson in a five-round fight earlier this year you know what i mean like it's like i'm forget i'm not forgetting that it's just there was something shown to me and again the fact that i just saw it earlier tonight that made me think that gaitch did get touched up it's not like he came out of there without any bruises but tonight Ferguson looked yeah yeah ferguson looked better against gathie than he did against oliver that's for damn sure yeah but different fights i get it yeah different fights completely different styles it's Exactly. But Olivera, I'll tell you right now, all the names in this question here, Tristan,

I'm picking Olivera to beat any of them. Kabib right now is the only fighter, I think, who, if you ask me, who would I pick, I would pick Abed. Other than that, I'd pick him to beat Connor, Porri, Chandler, Gatji. I think Olivera, he might be the best. And again, I am high off of that performance, but I'm making that statement now. You guys can clip it. You guys can quote me on this on Twitter, throw it in my face later. but that's how I felt about what I saw tonight.

I'm not betting against him anymore. I mean, how could you argue with anything you just said there? Casey, what do you think? Oh, coming into the night's card, I thought there'd be two breakout fighters. I thought it was going to be Oliver, and he did actually what I expected him to do. It was just weird seeing it. No, I've thought of Oliver. I thought that highly of him for actually a while now.

It was just kind of cool going, oh, cool, I was right. and I also thought Janja Noba was going to have a breakthrough performance tonight. Even though she had a great performance, not the same type of performance. Obviously, she lost. But, no, Oliver, yeah, outside of, yeah, outside of Fabib, yeah, he can win all those fights without it out. Without it out. Let me ask you this, A.K. I'll ask you this first, because there's a lot of people, like, people, some people value finish is just so highly, right? if Charles, what makes more of an impact in your opinion?

The way that Charles Olavera just start to finish for 15 minutes straight, just dominated Tony Ferguson and big brothered him, or if he got that submission in the first round, what do you think has more of an impact in your own mind? Because it's not like 30, 20, 27, this is an ass whoopper for 15 minutes. I admit, I probably would have been even more hyped if you finished in the first round. It's cool that we got to see the complete performance, like you said, that he could dominate for three rounds.

But definitely, I mean, if you guys think I'm overhyped now and I'm exaggerating now, if he had finished Ferguson by submission, I probably would have been saying, Alta Franca's the friggin greatest lightweight of all time. So, yeah, I think a first round submission would have made a little bit more of an impact with me. But what we got was said enough. You know, you can't take anything away from it. Ferguson is just so damn tough.

So, yeah, first-time submission would have been nice. And I actually almost thought we were going to see it. And frankly, if there had been 10 more seconds around, we would have. So credit's Tony Ferguson for being, you know, not human. If there were 10 more seconds around, we might have seen like a bone pop out of Tony's son. I'm thinking. No, I'm not kidding. Thank goodness there was actually the end of the round because Tony, I think,

is one of those guys that, like, Hino Gracie when he fought Sarkarava, like, just wasn't going to tap. We were just going to let his arm break, like big nog. And, like, I felt like Tony was in that type of position where he was just not going to tap and just let it like what or snap but uh that was gross i came out of that fight thinking that there's only two fights that would bring hubby back one would be gsp obviously if somehow some way they can make that happen and gsp could magically get to 155 and they could fight i think we could see that i honestly believe that the way charles olivera performed tonight Charles Olivera could get Habib out of retirement.

But not today, not tomorrow, not even in 2021. If Charles Olivero somehow becomes a champion and wins four more, what's his win streak at? Nine right now. Nine, I think all finishes. Oh, no, sorry, not finishes. All finishes before tonight. I apologize.

If Olivera wins four more in a row and gets to 13 straight wins and starts going after Habib's, like, streak of how many consecutive wins he has, maybe Habib comes out and is like, you know what, you ain't taking my record. I want that fight. I think that would, because if he wins four more in a row, he's going to beat, just think of the other guys he's going to beat. Like, he'd just beat Ferguson. He would beat Chandler.

He'd be Gauchy. He'd be Porre. Probably Connor. He'd probably beat all four of those guys to get to that point. At some point, Habib's going to be scratching his head and be, like, all right maybe you'll see what this guy can do

I mean I don't think Kabib comes back for any of the guys at 55 right now none of them not one that's the stuff that legacy fights for me

that's why that's why my guy agree with you because I said like I don't think we see Kabib come back in next year but yeah

we're talking about 2022 right depending where Oliver is at that point like you said he's breaking all the finish he's broken all the finishing records already

then he just has to start adding on the wins records So, gosh, that's the new dream fight, right? That's the new dream fight we're chasing, I think. Ferguson, Khabib, whatever. Kavib, Olivera. I want to say, actually, you're the main problem right now. The main issue of Oliverer is we work in the media.

I've mentioned this before. I've seen Olivera fight probably 15 times now. Tonight, I learned more about him. The fact that he carries a rock around. 100%. And that is the problem of Oliverer. I know nothing about him. zero. I think I'm from Houston, Texas. And when Buffer

announced fighting out of Houston, Texas, I'm like, what? How can the potentially, a future UFC Hall of Famer, a guy who's going to be fighting for the title very soon, a guy whose honor could be one of the greatest lightweights ever, and he just, I know nothing about him. What do you know about him? Does he have kids? Is he married? What do you know? I know he's Brazilian, wears glasses and has tattoos. And it kind of looks like Tony Parker. And that's an issue.

That's an issue. The UFC needs to figure how to package and sell to the casual Charles Oliver. Because there's going to be a lot of Charles Oliver in our future. Well, I mean, sometimes it all lines up. Look at Davis to Figure out. Davis to Figaro is probably the most, Davis of Figuerra might be the most interesting guy on the entire UFC roster. with all the odd jobs, the road he's taken to get to where he's at,

and we're finally starting to see his personality shine. Even though his English isn't there, people still like him just because he's such a violent guy. And the thing about MMA is like, it's very rare. There's two things that really stick out. Timing is everything. Kevin Holland is like a perfect example of that. And then there's like getting a signature win.

That helps too. It's very rare that they both come together at the exact same time, especially to the level of what Charles Oliver did tonight. that happened. That happened. And it doesn't matter. Like at this point, you can know all you need to know.

Charles O'Olera, I'm not going to say he's a star, but he took a giant step towards getting there. And a lot of people want to see what he's going to do next. Well, listen, all the UCS do is sit down with them for like 15 minutes and interview him one-on-one because I don't know if you guys saw his post-fire interview or were watching and saw the press conference. This man talks fast.

All right. I don't speak Portuguese. So, but I don't need to speak Portuguese to know this man. I called on the microphones guy on which by the reference almost nobody will get we'll get because we're of a certain

we're of a certain vintage let's put it that way old but yes pretty much to say he speaks really fast I was amazed and the translator plus his heart did his best I think we'll have to we'll have to agree later and maybe a full translation of whatever it was that Oliver was saying tonight because yeah there you go Casey there's one thing I know it's he's a

he's a fast talker so Cody Garbrand tweeted after the fight. Hey, Henry Sehudo, looks like it's us March 6th, picked the weight class. Hmm? I found, I thought, I thought, I thought, I had a very interesting take tonight. The biggest loser of the night tonight was Cody Garbrandt.

Who said that me? Didn't you say that? I don't think so. You didn't tweet that out? I may have retweeted it? It wasn't sure that would you. Somebody said that. I'll take credit for it.

Yeah. It's true. I forgot about Cody Garbrandt, actually, tonight. I forgot about him. That's the problem. That's why he's the biggest loser of the night. It seems academic that he's got to be fighting for the belt as soon as he comes back. I still, I think we laid it out perfectly earlier.

The way you do it is you run it back with Figure 8 or Moreno. Garbrandt v. Cape is the fight to make, number one contender. That's it. Or as Cape calls him, Cody Garbage. Cody garbage Unbelievable One of my favorite moments What a burn

What a burn Let's go Let's go for like five more minutes How about that? Yeah One or two more questions Give it your best All right

Got that To do La la la Oh I can't answer it Uh Uh Uh uh Uh

Uh Funny question Casey funny question and believe me, there's so much still I gotta go backwards. And look, we're gonna get a lot of Hey, Mike, we're gonna, we're gonna do maybe one of our longest episodes

of onto the next one ever, I think, with all these matches we're gonna do. So people are gonna be a lot more of us, but yeah, we got some here. Rapid fire. Tisha Torres versus Sam Hughes. Will Dana think Sam quit and not get a second outing in the cage? She took it on three days those to be asked.

If she gonna get the match? What's the other guy? He never got a fight again. Max, what's his name? The guy who quit him. Rosscoff, that's true. Is he going to get this treatment? Because Sam said, I can't see.

She said the truth. Rochkoff, for one thing, was that not a mutual party of ways? Wasn't there some sort of understanding between them? I don't know. I could be making that up. I think he was sure. That incident was definitely a lot more controversial. Remember, Roscov wasn't just like I can't see him.

It was like, I don't want to do this. I can't go on. I'm done. I'm done. I'm done multiple times saying I'm done. It's just made for a really bad clip, I think, for the UFC. That's probably one of the reasons for it. The optics were really bad.

Maybe his team could have handled the situation better. And Dana White and whoever is the UFC that makes these decisions, they're aware of all these things. They saw what we saw and they're aware of all these things. This wasn't quite as bad. Cormier kind of was a little bit harsh on her. kind of saying like that she was looking for a way out. That's why she said she said she couldn't see. And then she tried to kind of backtrack once the rounds is about to begin and kind of asking her,

do you want to go on? She's like, no, no, don't stop it. I think she was just being honest. I think she was just saying she couldn't see. He was saying she should have known better, but she was just being honest. She's in the moment. She can't see. She's probably a little panicked about it.

I mean, that's a scary thing and just said what she was asked. Can you see? Should she have known the fight was going to be stopped? Maybe she's probably seeing the fights. but I don't think that's the first thing that was on her mind. I saw a few fighters, and usually, you know, I respect their opinions, and they were kind of crapping on Hughes too a little bit just because you were just taught to lie.

And that's what fighting is lying. You get punched hard in the face, act like it does not hurt. You know, that's what. So, we're supposed to do rapid fire. I'm sorry, we're going into it. It's okay. We'll just say that. That fight was not going anywhere good for Sam Hughes.

No. Her corner, when her corner did I, her corner should have saved her right. I don't want to blame the corner. I mean, I don't know these people. But she was getting her ass handed to her by Tisha Torres. And it was going to go downhill real fast at the beginning of the second round. Much like for that Max kid, if you want to came out for that round, he would have got demolished. And I thought the same way for Sam.

Yeah. And I'm sure if you're going to say, oh, it's not like Tisha's going to throw. Teach us not a hat doesn't have a big knockup power. It's not actually going to, yeah, no. I mean, the fight, look, the fight might have gone the distance, but I'm going to tell you something. During that time, Sam Hughes was trying to take about 50 hard punches to the head. So knockout or not, trust me, it's, I'm not a doctor, guys,

but that's not good for you. It's not good for you. Yeah, I think she gets another shot. Why is Dana trashing next week's card? Thompson versus Neil, it's a great card, but it's like, this is the card that doesn't end, has 15 fights, eight on the prelims, seven fight man. I don't think he was trash.

I just think the fact that Shamiyev isn't on the card anymore, Dana lost interest. What did he say? I missed it. What did he say? I missed kind of that comment about the card. Dana said, Dana basis said, like, I'm going on vacation tomorrow. I'll see you guys next year. So he's, I guess he's not going to be there.

Like the promoter, the zero promoting for what maybe is actually on paper the best fight night of the year. Sure. So the promoter did not promote. So I think that's when that's the sense of trashing. Dana tells it like it is, bro. He tells it like it is. Stop hating. Stop hating on the boss.

We'll have some fun with that. Does all those fighting once week? Michelle Perez fighting next week. Oh, my, Marlon. My God is. I'm a card. He's fighting Knaz. I'm super excited about next week's card, actually.

You should be. It's a good card. I'm very excited. And it's missing that one. amazing non-title main event, but this is a good, this is an excellent replacement, actually. It's a really good fight.

Thompson versus Neil is fascinating. All right, we'll do one more, Casey. Pick out the best one. This is a good question. Yes. That's a fair question. I think the intention behind it's probably a little mean, but it's a fair question.

I have. I've been many growing up in the Boston area. that was the thing. Yeah, I have. That's all I'll say. That was great. You guys don't want to know how those fights did for the other guy. Let's put it that way.

Mike cannot legally say what happened to those fights. That was so like, you guys know where I come from. Mind your business. Mind your business. I get a seven-year-old. I know I'm going back and watching clips of like dad talking about his old street fights back would be younger and a wicker snapper but yeah um but yeah there you go anybody else want to chime in before you say goodbye i think we've gone i honestly honestly i've

trained a little bit but a real fight i think i've been lucky enough to say i've never been to real fight people can probably tell that by looking at me uh and if that was your if honestly if that was your assumption you are correct i i don't think i've ever i think i would know if i remember if i had been that no that does that surprise me okay I'm a pacifist Only, no, only because you're such a nice guy Who the hell would want to fight you? Right, I'm lovable.

Casey, I know you've been like a billion. Right? When I think of real fight, I think real fight, like you, me, we're meeting at a certain time At a certain location. To me, that's a real fight. Now, have I been in Cuffles?

Yes. I've been in some curfuffles. kerfuffles. Yeah, where all of a sudden, have I been in a fight where at some point where there was no,

there was no drinks in hand? No, me, I don't know. I've been in some, yeah. Cuffles, yes. Meet at the pine trees at 3.30, no. No, no. Not yet. Not yet. Night's still young.

We still got a few more days for 2020. I hope and I hope my fighting career is like way over at this point. for God's sakes. Like, don't need to be doing that. All right, we're getting out of here. I think we're at like the 75 minute mark.

Holy shit. What a night this has been late, gentlemen. We're getting out of here. Great show. What a show. Dude, this card ruled. This card freaking ruled. Absolutely.

AK and I will be back with on to the next one. Then we got between the links, the east side. What the heck? I mean, we just get so more stuff before we head into the final card of the year next weekend. So for AK for Casey, I am Mike Heck. Good. everybody.

That's how people fight, right? This is what it was going to fight. Fight, fight, fight, fight, fight. You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network.