MMA Fighting - UFC on ESPN 9: Woodley vs. Burns Post-Fight Show

Episode Date: May 31, 2020

MMA Fighting's Mike Heck and Alex K. Lee break down the top storylines from UFC on ESPN 9, including Gilbert Burns' dominant decision win over former welterweight champion Tyron Woodley in the main event.  Follow Mike Heck: @MikeHeck_JR Follow Alexander K. Lee: @AlexanderKLee Subscribe: http://goo.gl/dYpsgH Check out our full video catalog: http://goo.gl/u8VvLi Visit our playlists: http://goo.gl/eFhsvM Like MMAF on Facebook: http://goo.gl/uhdg7Z Follow on Twitter: http://goo.gl/nOATUI Read More: http://www.mmafighting.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Our agents take the time to understand your company, so you get the right coverage at the right price. Whether you rent out your building, represent a condo corporation, or own a cleaning company, we make insurance easy to understand so you can focus on the big stuff, like your small business. Get insurance that's really big on care. Find an agent today at Dejardin.com slash business coverage. You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network. Hello there, everybody. My name is Mike Heck and hope you're not sick of me yet.

And welcome to the UFC on ESPN-E-SPN-9 Post-Fight Show, live right here on MAAfighting.com, virtually alongside Alex K. Lee. We've rearranged things here for the post-fight show. It was Jose, and now Alex and I are in together now. So we get two limp biscuit references, and hopefully the only two within the first minute, But Alex, let's get right into this thing. First question, overall thoughts on this return to Las Vegas for the UFC from start to finish. What would be your letter grade, professor?

First of all, 16 million copies worldwide, Olympiscuit, significant other. 16 million copies. People used to buy albums, kids. There's a long time ago. But yes, to talk about the card tonight, it was really good. I mean, it was, I know people will look at the co-main event and maybe take that one fight, which was somewhat lackluster. and because it's happened near the end, it's going to maybe drag the overall letter grade down.

But I did not think it took away that much from the rest of the card. It wasn't even like a horrible fight. It just was uneventful, especially compared to some of the other action we saw. Because we saw at least three fights that were like worthy of a fight of the night candidacy. We saw a ton of finishes. Death probably benefited by the smaller cage. I know a lot of people predicted that we have the smaller cage tonight,

that there would be that kind of conclusion to fights. And they were right. it was certainly created more, seemed to create more action. So overall, letter grade, man, I'm, I'm feeling generous tonight. I'm going a strong, strong A-minus.

Wow. Yeah. I'm good with that A-minus. I'm going to piggyback off that A-minus. I was going to say B-plus, maybe A-minus, and I thought you're going to say B-plus. I was going to take the shine with the A-minus, but I'm right here with you, Alex K. Lee.

And for those watching right now, I want to remind you, please, shout out, comments, reactions, questions for this wild event, because we want to hear from you. I've been talking more than enough this week. But, AK, let us hear from you, kind sir, a little bit more. Let's start with the main event of the evening.

Gilbert Doreenio Burns, putting on the performance of a lifetime, dominates Tyrone Woodley from start to finish. This guy was one of my biggest questions heading into this car. Tarren Woodley is probably a little bit higher on that list, but Gilbert Doreno Burns, my question was, is this guy the real deal? Can he contend and compete for a world title? And man, can he ever?

This guy answered all the questions. He's a legit threat to everybody at 170 pounds right now. Your reaction, AK, to Gilbert Burns' coming out party to the top five of this welterweight division. Yeah, I mean, look, a lot of the talk is going to be about Woodley's performance, much like it was in the Uzman fight, Woodley's last fight, how he kind of underperformed, you know. But let's, of course, first give the credit to Gilbert Burns. This is a guy on the rise who I think a lot of people wanted to get behind, but there was some hesitancy of, you know, can he beat a guy like Woodley?

You know, the Maya fight proved a lot, but, you know, Maya is an older fighter. Woodley's up there, too. I know he's 38 years old, turned 38, I think, in April. So there, so, but he was still, he's still very much viewed by a lot of people as being, you know, near his prime, especially since we only saw him lose once in Uzman after winning the title. And, and also he had kind of a late prime. I mean, Woodley's prime really started around maybe 33, 32, 33. So it's kind of weird to just say, you know, a guy has a five or six years and then he's out.

But that is how the fight game is. is sometimes. But yeah, I think a lot of perceived Woodley still as being the number one contender, the former champion coming off his first loss in so many years. So this was a big thing for Burns to prove himself. And Burns looked exactly like the most optimistic projections of Burns that you could have. The stand-up power, you know, for a guy who, like, his striking is always developing. And he always has that great raw power. Man, that was there. You know, he dropped Woodley early. There's a couple of times the fight where luckily he might finish him. And the grappling, of course, he's known as being a Brazilian jiu-jitsu artist, and the grappling was there.

He had a beautiful take-down in the second round, and he just beat Woodley in every aspect of the game. It was really sensational, and you throw this guy right in there amongst the top three or four contenders in the Welterweight division right now. Joseph Boza says that reminded everybody that Woodley had been out for 15 months heading into that fight, and he says that Gilbert Byrne should fight for the belt next. We'll get into that momentarily because he looked tremendous. He hurt Woodley on the feet right away, left that nasty cut over his eye, dominate on the ground. I mean, legit, everywhere he dominated this fight. It was a huge win for him.

So like Joseph just sort of said, let's play the matchmaker game, Alex. Where does Gilbert Burns go after that incredible performance? Because of word up to him, he'd fight tomorrow. Yeah, absolutely what. He probably wants to fight. He's probably sad he's missing on the paper view next week, right? Before, I do want to say something about, we mentioned the long break for Woodley. I actually thought that it would benefit him.

I was of the camp that thought maybe he, because he had defended his title quite a few times. I think he had the longest active title defense streak for a while there, which was only like four. Guys just don't have long runs anymore. And I thought he was burnt out.

And I thought that the break would do him good. Maybe it did. I mean, I'm sure we'll talk about some of his comments after. It didn't sound like he didn't sound too deflated by his own performance, even though he lost the fight. But yeah, I thought the break would do him good. not good enough apparently to beat Burns.

Burns now, like I said, he's among the top three or four guys. You've got to throw him in that mix. There's certainly some talk of maybe you match him up with Leon Edwards. Maybe we do a Fight Island thing. I don't know because, you know, Leon is an international fighter. They're certainly looking for big fights for Fight Island whenever that gets rolling. But I also like, of course, the Colby Covington talk. I don't know how much he's on Colby Covington's radar.

I know Kobe keeps calling him Dilbert, which is just hilarious. but it would be a great fight. I think very beneficial to both guys. Burns, you can sell that storyline of, hey, you know, this guy was running down Brazilians and then he beat Tosanos,

he beat Maya. This is my chance to avenge those losses. I want to fight Kobe Covington. But he said afterwards he is set on his teammate, Kumar Usman. I love the idea Burns versus Leon Edwards next on Fight Island. And I think that makes all the sense in the world. I mean,

Leon was supposed to fight Tyron. And Gilbert has just sort of, eclips that at this point. So I think that's a great fight. I think it's a great matchup. And that'd be a legit number one contender fight if we're being honest here. And you know, Gilbert's going to be ready for July. So Fight Island makes sense. But he'll be ready for tomorrow or next weekend at UFC 250 if he's needed. But I think the Edwards fight is the one that makes a lot of sense for me. But who knows, Alex, like you just said, he's got a lot of options. Wonderboy, that'd be an interesting fight because Wonderboy's top five guy. I'd like to see the

Covington fight. Not sure if that happens or not because he didn't want to fight a nerd named Dilbert, like you said on his betting prediction video that he put on on Instagram, but that would be a fun fight. But a lot of options for Gilbert Burns right now. That's what happens when you go on these streaks like he's on and show up in big spots. But Tyrone Woodley, he's a more interesting question in my opinion right now. I asked Jose this question during the live post-fight press conference live stream we did moments ago. He said Robbie Lawler makes all the sense in the world to rebook that fight since they tried to do it last year.

but where does Tyrone Woodley go after being dominated for 50 straight minutes in its last two fights? It's a shame that, you know, an injury did knock Woodley out of the Loller rematch, which was supposed to happen, I think, last year. If I were, it was a UFC on the S-Pen card last year. Yeah, I believe it was supposed to happen last year. The Minneapolis card. Because, yeah, the Minneapolis card, because it really was the perfect matcher for him. It made a lot of sense. It's a fight that, you know, he's very proud of beating Robbie the first time, but Robbie, of course, is always one of that rematch.

And fans of Lawler really wanted to see him try and get that W back against Woodley. It made sense for where they were in their careers. It's a shame that one didn't happen because I think, again, Woodley would have had a good chance of beating him again. Instead, he found himself in a very, very tough fight against the guy who had a lot more to gain from beating him than Woodley did, you know, the other way around. Another thing on, you know, I keep dissecting Woodley's performance, but one thing that really struck out to me, because I really bought into the whole, he said he was depressed, you know, after. the Usman loss.

And, you know, the fight itself, he also looked not there. You know, so he said how bad he felt he looked in that fight. I bought into that. I should have also listened to what he said earlier this week, which was not a good thing when he said, he was, he told ESPN, he wasn't really motivated to beat Gilbert Burns. He was motivated to fight again. He was motivated to win again. But there was a little bit of disrespect to Burns there.

He said, like, you know, Burns is not a Nick Diaz. You know, Burns is not the kind of championship fighter he's used to. And I thought that kind of thing came back to bite him. And I really should have put more credit in that when I was making my fight pick. We got a couple comments. Let's see. Edgy Bra. Woodley versus Colby.

You still want to see it. Yes, absolutely. That's a fight the UFC has to consider if Woodley is a plan to continue his career, which by all accounts, it sounds like he is. That fight will always be here. You could be two straight loss for Woodley, three straight loss for Woodley. people want to see this business with him and Colby Covington resolved just make it happen

it's like with I think I remember when Matt Hughes and Matt Sarah fought way after they did the ultimate fighter a bunch of other stuff had happened it was still a fight with a lot of heat behind it and I think this could be even even bigger than that fight was when that fight finally happened

CET Spivey Woodley-Sherie match Lollar I think that's a good fight I did see a comment Burns versus Mazadol I would be shocked if that fight happens I'd like to I'd love to see it I'd love to see it. I just don't think it happens right now,

especially with Mazadol being so close to a title fight. There's the Nate Diaz rematch that's being discussed for the BMF. That'll be huge. Get Better Guess. I just saw what the hell's going on here. He's just joking. He said more limp biscuit talk. That's why.

Woodley should fight RDA. I like that fight. I think that fight makes a ton of sense, the RDA fight. Michael Kiesa, that's an interesting matchup. I mean, I'd love to see Colby. If we could do Colby, the heat there will almost make people forget what happened in these last two fights for what they the buildup to that fight it would be part of the story but it would be it would not be at the forefront

at all be the trash talk between these two guys and in this personal rivalry just being settled once and for all i think we should have this fight a bunch of times already and we for some reason we still haven't had it people probably think that the opportunity has been missed here but uh i don't but i don't think that's we'll see look i don't know how much woodley has left but like i said he seems to be motivated still and still wants to fight again. So I wish more top-level fighters would get to rebuild their career, their resume is kind of like Alistair Overeem. Al-Star Overeign was not a UFC champion, but I mean, he's been at the top of headway for so

long. He's won world championships and other promotions. If you look at his resume, he'll lose fights and then he'll get two fights against, you know, maybe not top 10 guys, but just against other people who are either on the way up. And this is something the UFC doesn't do, whether it's because they don't want to, or again, maybe the fighters don't agree to these fights. But I would like to see them, you know, a lot more fights, be willing to go back a few rungs down the latter and fight and fight other guys and get one or two wins back. And then you get another, you know, high-level fight. I know there's only so many years these guys have. There's only so many fights they have on their careers. And again, again, again, and again, again, and again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, another reason why I like the Colby fight, not just because of the personal rivalry. We'd love that. that stuff. But if, if tyranny is, is to overcome this adversity and get motivated again,

Colby's the fight that's going to do it for him. I mean, he's not getting a title shot. I mean, sure, I'm sure that might motivate him a little bit, but the Colby fight would get him more motivated than any other one. And then we would get the answers to all these questions. But he's just, as another commenter said, there's just something about him being so gun shy. He's been like this for a while now. I just don't know, like beginning of the second round, I thought the tides, I don't say, want to say they were, they were. They were. turning, but Tyrant came out much more aggressive. He was throwing combinations.

He was charging. And then Gilbert had that perfectly timed takedown in the second round. And that made things crazy. Coop de Gras. Woodley versus Pettus might be good too. But these guys are teammates. They might be buddies, yeah, through Rift of Sports. So I don't know if that fight's going to happen.

On paper, sure it would be cool. But I don't think they have any interest in that. So another case. One that I mentioned to Jose, wasn't the top of my list, but I just threw it out there because it would be a main event fight for a fight night card. What about Woodley versus Soroni? Oh, that'd be great. Yeah, again, these are fights that's exactly actually what I was talking before, like with

over-fitting. That's the kind of fights I wish guys would consider. I know they're dangerous opponents. And again, the money certainly matters. So if you're Woodley, you have to ask yourself, is it worth my money and my time and the amount of fights I have left to fight a guy like Seroni? So, you know, again, a lot of factors go into it. I don't want to criticize him if that fight came up and he didn't take it.

But I know we have to move on. We've picked toward this fight so much. But I will say I actually very much agree with your point of it was surprising how timid he was. And the commentators were pointing out in, I think, the third or fourth round, how easily Woodley was just giving up ground in the octagon. He would walk himself over to the fence. And again, that's, you know, I guess when you get hit by Gilbert Burns, I would be running away too. But for a fighter of Woodley's level, it was surprising he couldn't find another way to approach as opposed to just giving up ground and letting Burns really dictate where the fight went. I'll tell you who the real MVP of that fight was, Tyron Woodley's cut man in the first round,

because that thing was bleeding like crazy throughout that first round, and I don't think it bled again. Like, I didn't see it bleed again. That guy did a great job, and that was a gnarly cut, too, above his left eye. I think was deep. Unsung heroes. Unsung heroes. Might have a stitch 2.0 here, but let's get to the co-made event. Augusto Sakai gets a victory over Bogoy Ivanov via split decision. By the way, we talked about MVP being the cut man. The non-NvP, the complete opposite of MVP, the LVP, was the judge who, who scored the fight 30 to 27 for Ivanov. That was the worst scorecard of the night by far.

But Augusta Sakai gets a huge win. He's won six in a row now. Big win on the contender series, unbeat in the UFC. Thoughts on Augusto Sakai's victory and where he may go from here. Yeah, look, I mean, I think Gusa Sakai is pretty good. I know the Andro-R-A-Lov, this is a second split decision win in the UFC. I know the Orlovsky win wasn't very convincing. Who knows that may be a robbery review topic sometime in the future.

But I do remember, I think I may have scored it for Arlovsky, but I didn't think it was like a big travesty or anything. It wasn't like Aralovsky dominated him. I thought maybe he won the fight, but it wasn't the worst thing. Outside of that, he has against split decisions tonight and then two knockout victories. He looked really, really good against Martian Tebrer, who's a really tough guy to finish. And Sakai took him out in less than a minute. So good stuff there. And I like him.

And I don't even think his performance was that bad tonight. I know it wasn't super exciting. I know it seemed like he just couldn't quite finish off some of those combinations. He kept throwing this head kick that wasn't hitting anything. It wasn't even coming close. But I thought he looked pretty good against the guy, like even if he's super tough, as we all know, both inside and outside the cage, if people know his story. And also really technical.

I mean, he was hitting Sakai a lot. It's not like Sakai could just like wade in there and throw haymakers. He had to be really smart. Otherwise, he was going to get knocked out. So I actually think Sakai is better than people think. I know the style isn't always thrilling, but four-in-owned the UFC is pretty good. I don't know if he quite cracks the UFC's official top 10. He was 13 going to this fight, but he's pretty close.

As he's wanted, he's at least earned a top 10 opponent. I would agree with that. I saw Big Ben being thrown out there as a possible opponent. I feel like Big Ben's thrown in all these heavyweight things because it makes sense for everybody. But if we're going to go top 10, and I know that maybe this is too soon to even suggest this, but, you know, that was a three-round fight. maybe Walt Harris when he's ready to come back. Like, I feel like that's, that's a good step for both guys.

I think Walt Harris is ranked number nine right now. So, and then, uh, Sakai would probably be like number 12. Uh, if we're talking about like rankings just one by one, I think Shamil Abdurohimov is ranked 11. So that'd be, but then logistically, it's kind of crazy. But, uh, I think Sakai deserves a top 10 fight. He's very fortunate and lucky that the referee did not take a point away for that fence grab. That was crazy. That was the crate.

I mean, that was so, nobody missed that. He's so lucky he got the win. That should have been a draw. You know, Michael, you have to be good to be lucky and lucky to be good. Yes, it should have been a majority draw because that would have made it 28, 28, I believe, the two Sakai's and then 30, 26 on the one Georgia scorecard, which, yes, would have been a majority draw. But look, again, luck, these things happen in fights, blatant grab. The sad thing is even if the referee had addressed it, he probably would not have taken a point away.

They usually don't. I think fence grabs that prevent to take down should either one be instant point taken away or you give the, you know, the fighter attempting the take down the position or both the point and position, which would be amazing because I think you really do need to deter take downs. I did want to say the, I did have the name in shame, the judge. His name is who gets the 30, 27, even off. That is Michael Bell, who actually has done quite a few cards.

He is a veteran. of UFC and Bell tour judging. So no excuses here. I don't know where Michael Bell came from, but I don't know where his head was at in tonight's fight because it was not a 3027 fight for Evenoff. Yeah, the other suggestion I saw, which I knew was coming at some point,

was Alexei Olenic. I feel like Big Ben and Alexiolinic are the two guys that get thrown in all this, and that's why we need to put these guys together anyways, Big Ben and Alexi. Nix's Blagoi versus OSP, heavyweight OSP? That'd be a wild fight. Oh, yeah.

I'm into that. Yeah. That'd be a very technical fight. I'm into anything at heavyweight. It's heavyweight. It's why, yeah. I mean, OSP is 240 freaking pounds on the scale for his heavyweight fight. So stick around.

That'd be fun. I'd be down for that. Although he just lost a big Ben who's not in the top of feteen. So it'll be a fun fight. Until we sort out this, this, uh, Miochich, Korme, and Gano situation, really, it doesn't, really, you're just mashing together the pieces from four, from like four to 15, 20 rankings. There's not that much of a gap between them. I had to say. You just kind of match them together. A lot of fun, a lot of potentially fun matchups.

I like chaos. Let's just keep doing what we're doing right now. But speaking of chaos, let's talk bonuses, Alex. Let's talk those FD, extra $50,000. Dana White announces at the post-fight press conference that McKenzie Dern and Gilbert Burns won the performance bonuses. And there are a lot of guys who deserve those performance bonuses. So, but still, I don't disagree with either of those two. Mackenzie Byrne, McKenzie Dern, right there, rare submission win, first kneebar, heel hook, leg submission in women's UFC history. So that probably deserves that. Fight of the night goes to Tim Elliott and Brennan Royval. Do you agree with all of those, none of those, one of those? Like, I'm going to guess that you do not agree with fight of the night. Not anything

against Elliott and Royval, because they made me look like a genius. That fight was phenomenal. But if we're picking just one fight. And with all due respect to Dana White and the matchmakers, they got this one wrong. And I think Dana White knew they got this one wrong. Wow. Actually, you'll be surprised. I'm going to defend the performance bonus committee on this one. It was very awkward at the post-fight press conference for anyone who didn't see it.

Dana White almost sounded guilty or disappointed in himself and the people who picked the, he said it was, I think he said it was him, Sean Shelby and McMaynor. Yeah. Yeah, who decided, and he said, because he, when he came up and read the bonus, he actually asked the media, he's like, who do you guys think won the fight of the night? And then, and then he read out what the actual fight of the night winner was. And then he was kind of like, yeah, and then he was kind of like, oh, yeah, also, yeah, Coronillo, Carlisle, Carlisle, yeah, that's good. It's like, he knew the reaction was coming. So it was kind of like, well, how did you guys come to this conclusion in the first place?

That said, I'd have no problem with anyone saying that Roy Val Elliott was a better fight. I mean, look, Carlisle, Corantillo was a wild fight. definitely some good moments technically as well, two talented guys. I think any fight where one guy loses track of time in the fight and walks back to his corner and gets punched almost in the back of the head,

I think that can knock you down a notch from the fight of the night at first. So I'm okay with Reval and Elliot. That fight was awesome. And it's a shame it couldn't go longer because I think Elliot might just cast himself out because since he was going, he was fighting it like 100 million percent

for the eight minutes or whatever that he was in there. So no, I'm fine. of it. Dern's submission was spectacular. And Burns, I'm always in favor of fighters who put on dominant decision wins, getting performance bonuses. I know, I know people like it to be submissions or knockouts, but sometimes a performance like that, a career best performance, has to be rewarded. So I was all for that. And, you know, you could have said the same for Kaylin Chukagian, unfortunately. I hope she gets something too, as does, again, all the other guys who got great finishes. Chris Gutierrez, Roosevelt Robberus, just Casey Kennedy. It was a really, really good night for a lot of fighters.

Yeah, I think Spike Carlisle, I'm sorry, Billy Correntillo won the fight. So Billy Corantillo versus Spike Carlisle. And I like that fight so much because one guy won, one guy lost, and it was a very close decision that could have gone either way. And I think of Spike won, I think more people probably would have been in agreement. I actually scored it for Billy Q and not just because I picked him to win by decision on our little tapology page that we do. But that fight was awesome. And both guys, their stock completely rose. It's like Billy Q, his stock is as high as it's ever been.

And then Spike Carlisle, despite the loss, completely rose. I mean, maybe even more so. Mike, it's classic pro wrestling booking, man. Like one guy goes over, the other guy gets over, brother. You know, that's how it goes, right? One guy gets to win and then the other guy gets over. The second thing I want to mention is, it's funny you mention your topology picks, Mike, because why don't you tell people, you had an excellent night on typology fix?

I'm not slandering anyone. I was terrible. I'll share those. Well, people can see my predictions on Emilyfighting.com. They're horrible. You had an excellent night. That was marred only by two things. You picked Burns.

Sorry, you picked Willie to win the main event. And Mike, what was the other unfortunate blemish on your picks, your topology selections? So I picked Woodley to win the main event. And it was more of a strategic pick to do that because I felt like, you know, who's everybody else going to pick? And I thought the majority of people would pick Gilbert Burns. And I thought potentially would come down the last one. but all day long, I said to myself,

I picked McKenzie Dern to win by first round submission. As we all did. And then I go and look at it and I was like, oh, my God, I picked Hannah Seifers by first round submission. I was like, what? How does that happen? I was like, and you could tell by the how the fight ended in what round, that there's no way I picked Hannah Seifers in that fight

because there's no way I was picking her win by first round submission. And by the way, I actually was looking pretty good with the accidental pick until she didn't separate. Like she got taken down. I'm like, well, she went in there. She went in there.

She was like, I'm going in. I'm going to the group. There it. Oh, there it is. Look at that. There it is.

Again, but you should thank Gilbert Burns for winning that main event and, and, you know, ruining your Woodley pick because otherwise, we would have never let you

hear the end of the, of the Sefer's thing. You know, you may have wanted to say, guys, you know that I meant to pick during, and we would be like, no,

we never let you get away with it. So, As it is, 9 of 11, fantastic performance. And you don't have to worry about would you have had a perfect card or not. It doesn't matter. That's true. Had some perfect picks, too, throughout. But the card was great.

It delivered in a lot of ways. We touched on some of the other performances. But let's sort of let's get down to the basement of the card, so to speak, from the curtain jerker, maybe the first few fights. Chris Gutierrez, great performance. Another rare finish. I think it was the 10th fighter to get a leg kick TKO win, the 11th overall, because I think Edson Barbosa got a 12th overall, because I think Edson Barbosa got it twice. So that makes it 11 overall.

Casey Kenny looked fantastic, getting a submission win over a very tough Lewis Smolka on short notice. He was the last guy to hit the scales yesterday. Was he not? Yeah, I believe he. Was he last? It was him or? It was. I mean, I think he was last one.

Yeah, Kenny was last one. Yes, correct. And then it was the Roy Val fight. But Casey Kenny Bigwood for him, calls out Henry Sohudo, which I dug. Yeah. It was funny when he likes to throw these names. Why not?

Every time I've interviewed him, he throws it a name. It's just so wild, and I love it. He looks good. What's next? I want to say, first of it, Chris Gutierre is Vince Morales. Yes, he was the recipient of that TKO, the leg kick TKO, and he later tweeted out a picture of Lieutenant Dan from Forrest Gumpf from the boat saying, this is me and my legs after the fight at the UFC apex.

So a good sport, Vince Morales, and a fun interview I got to talk to. Kenny, man, yeah, taking out Smokos. Smoke as a veteran and a fight finisher himself. So that's a huge win. Oh, please, that's not my... Oh, no. It's not M.M.A.fighting.com. I can't hide anyway.

But it looks so much worse, though, when you just laid out like that. Yeah. People, they let me write my predictions for MAPFiting.com. So I'm a glutton for punishment. Okay, I'm a glutton for punishment. I admit it. What's next for Casey Kenny? I mean, I think he's probably aiming a little too high going for...

Not just a Hutto, but going for, like, a top five opponent. I'm not saying he can't. He's not competitive enough to people do that. But that's probably a bridge too far for him right now. So he lost his last five right to Marab, right? Marab de Valle Shvili. I'm going to take a quick glance. Sorry, I'm buying myself time as I take a quick load up my own little personal rankings here.

This is the definitive rankings. Not the UFC rankings, people. You've got to have your own rankings. There's too much politics. Too much politics. Song ya dong? Hmm, that's interesting. Test his luck, right?

As Cody Stamen calls him, the luckiest man in the UFC. I just, that's the first name that just popped up to me. I like that. Maybe, I was going to say Jimmy Rivera, but Jim Rivera is on a losing streak. He is still highly ranked, so I think if Kenny would want that fight, he could probably get it. I just don't know how much that would benefit Kenny really at this point. Yeah, I see a lot of veteran names ahead of him, but I do like the song you know, I do like the idea of a song in a dollar. Maybe a Ricky Simone.

Oh, that's a good one. Yeah, there's a lot of good hungry bent and weights, like just outside the top 10. And that next tier, like 11 to 20, a lot of good hungry guys. I'll tell you what fight I want to see in the future. And it may not happen right now, but I would like to see it. I have a feeling these two guys will collide at some point. I want to see Casey Kenny versus Montel Jackson at some point. Oh, yes, Montel Jackson is going to be very good.

Yeah. That would be a bananas fight. But, man, it's very hard to match up two prospects like that this quickly. But I'm in. I'm all in on that fight. Even if they did it now. And I'm sure Casey Kenney, because he wants to fight so frequently and stay as active as possible, he would probably take that fight at this point. He doesn't care.

He'll fight anyone. And Chris Gutierrez's good win. I liked his callouts as well. Andre Ewell, I knew he was going to say because of the Jonathan Martinez fight. But Miles Johns is a fun one, too. Which one do you prefer if you had the choice? I like Miles Johns. I mean, I just like Miles Johns in general.

But, yeah, I like the idea of a matchup with him and Roy, Vos. So, yeah, I like, I like that. No, I like that one a lot. Sorry, I want to skip ahead here. Well, we'll talk about it. We'll talk about them later, so I guess I shouldn't skip ahead. But I did want to talk about, just remind me to talk about Gabe Green before we end the show. But I'm sorry, let's keep going in order, as it were.

Okay, no, let's talk Gabe Green right now. Let's go ahead. Lead the way, my friend. Gabe Green clearly lost a unanimous decision to Daniel Rodriguez. Daniel Rodriguez, by the way, looking great so far. He beat Tim Means by submission in his debut. That was awesome. And now, yes, he got, you know, a short notice opponent, but that can be a very dangerous thing.

I know it's a guy he's familiar with. They know each other from the California regional scene. But even then, it's like you just never know what's going to have. You go from finding a guy in Kevin Holland, who's making a name for himself, to a guy in Gabe Green, who's going to make his name off you if he beats you. He comes out of nowhere, less than one week's notice. What a Cinderella story if he beats you. You know, everyone expects you to win.

And it's not always easy to dominate under those circumstances. But Rodriguez was great, very accurate striking. But I love Gabe Green's attitude. This is a guy, again, coming in on, I believe, four days notice. And just saying, I'm just going to go in. If I get knocked out, I get knocked out. But he was going in, he was throwing, taking a lot of damage. But you got to love that attitude.

There's a lot of people in this card who I think are going to be favorites for Dana White in the future. We mentioned Spark Carlisle, Casey Kenney, I think, is going to be one of those guys. Gilbert Burns already is. and I think Gabe Green, I don't know how long his UFC's going to, career is going to last with that style, but I think he's been a lot of fun once he gets to drop back down to 155.

First decision win since his amateur day, or first decision in general, he didn't win the fight, but first decision in general since his amateur debut, which is crazy. But the one thing he hated about decisions was it was a close decision

his first fight, so he hated the fact that he wasn't sure if his hand was going to get raised or not, but this one, was kind of a no-doubter. I'm sure he knew that he didn't win. But at real performance, jumping up a weight class, he has fights at 170 in his career, but he's mostly a 55er. He's fought at 60, maybe 65, but you can tell like he was outsized in a big way to Daniel. But like I said on Twitter, like the good old, like good old JR says, tougher than a $2 steak.

Just by two cents. Roberts Hill and Kenny looked awesome. Yes, Roosevelt Roberts. He looked phenomenal. He looked fantastic against Brock Weaver. was a huge favorite and he delivered a performance like he was one of the biggest favorites on the card this guy's got a great future i think he learned a ton from that vince bachel fight yes because it was kind of like a deja vu fight all over again with yakov and moscow but man he needed to go out there and take on a guy who missed weight who's not too happy about that the twitter account thing obviously that wasn't him we've cleared that up at this point but he needed to go out there and have that performance he delivered in a big way i mean this guy's got got a very bright future

of him. Does he not? He's an exciting prospect, man. I mean, you just look at him. He's got great measurements. You know, if we're just talking physical measurements, tall guy, good range. Seems to really know how to use it well. This is something I talked about my prediction for this fight was we see guys with great physical gifts, not always figure out how to use them. And he's very early on showing that he knows how to use that jab. He knows how to use his height and his reach. And again, it takes some guys a lot older than him. I think he's 27. There's a lot guys that a lot more had been around longer than him that never figure that out. So he looks. looked great. I like, we love what you said about the Vince Pichel thing and the Yakop-Lev fight

because I think losing to Pichel, that's one of those, he's going to look back on that for the rest of his career as when things really turned around for him. Because I remember there's a lot of hype around him going into that fight, and I actually picked Pachel because I think Pichel's the kind of guy who takes pride in fighting prospects, and he certainly did in that fight. And he really, you know, he really taught Roberts a thing or two. So Roberts learned from that, be Yakov-Lev, and now really just, I would say, just dominated Brock Weaver, which is what he should do based on what we've seen, I think, in his last two or three fights.

So huge step-up performance with him on an ESPN main card. Definitely one to watch. Really, really liked what we saw from Robbers tonight. Just by two cents that smaller cage was word up. They were getting after it tonight. No escape. Yeah. I mean, I liked it.

It was great. It was literally like watching Contender Series fights. Like, obviously not from skill level, perceptions, but there's a reason why we love contender series so much. I mean, the fighters are great and the fights are always delivering on that show, but big reason is because of the small cage, and we've got to see it in action tonight from contender series versus contender series matchups to the main event itself. I dug it. I think the UFC should do this much more, and they're going to beat the apex for a while anyway, so we're going to see a lot more of this. It was perfect for guys,

and I'm not about to name a couple guys who lost, but guys like Tim Elliott and Gabe Green, who just want to get in their opponent's faces and stay there. the whole fight. It was easy. They took like two steps forward. Boom, you're engaged. You're in the pocket. There was, there's really, and that's what made some really, really, really, really fun fights. Again, really, there wasn't, there wasn't, I know people are going to rag on the, the heavyweight co-main event. There actually was quite a bit of output, I thought, from both guys, for the most part, at least when we're talking about heavyweights. Caitlin Chukagin, look, we haven't talked about her much, but man, Antonina Shepchenko, you know, she's a great kickboxer.

range fighting was really just not an option, especially not the way Chukagian approached this fight. She just walked her down, got a hold of her, took her down, used her wrestling brilliantly. Could that have happened in the bigger cage, probably, but it would have been harder to do. And Chukagian made the most of that small cage and just dominated, dominated that fight. Another fighter that stuck out in a lot of people's minds before we wrap this up. Jamal Hill had a great win over Clinton Obrayu. And here's my thought on the next step, okay, for Jamal Hill. I want to see Jamal Hill versus Ed Herman.

That's what I want to see. Wow. I did not see that coming. Yes, Ed Herman, you know, longtime middleweight, has sort of prolonged his career by moving up to 205. Does, I guess, would fit the category of gatekeeper, I suppose, though. He's got two wins in a row, though. He does. I'm looking at it now, and I'm just, you had to remind me.

I'd still, I think I would like to see Jamal face someone a little bit lower down the rankings. I'm just taking a glance some of the names here. Kennedy and Zuchukwu, I think, would be interesting. Alexa Kamer. Da Ongong, I think, would be,

if anyone remembers him. He's also 2 and O in the UFC so far. So again, I'm just, I have some very raw rankings here. So I'm not really thinking about style matchup or I'm just looking at the win streaks and who's kind of in the range. But Ed Herman, I could see that fight being made, though. If we're talking about fights that makes sense from a matchmaker standpoint,

yeah, I could see that. Kind of test where he is as a prospect. Because he took a big leap, I think, from his first fight to this one and really did a good job against Abraos. So, yeah, I don't know if I'm as high on him as I am on, like, a Roosevelt Roberts. But there's no arguing with 8-0 and a great finish tonight, man. That knee to the body. I mean, he was tuning him up already,

but that need of the body was scary. Like when that hit, you know, with no one in the crowd, you're like, that had to be a rib going or something. Like, that was, that was rough. We're going to just, we'll lightning around some questions here if we have them. Joseph Boza said Antonia didn't really look like herself without Valentina in her corner. We'll answer that question after. I want to get your thoughts on that because, honestly,

I'm sure it had some effect maybe with the approach on the fight, but I don't think that fight goes any differently, if we're being honest. The fact that Antonia Shepchenko was the favorite tonight was just crazy. Like, people must have cleaned up in a big way at the betting window. Because how? I mean, I understand she came off a finish loss to Valentina, but I mean, from the Roxanne, like, this is too much too soon. Is it not? I mean, Roxanne to Caitlin Chukagian?

I mean, come on. Like, this is bad matchmaking. Like, Roy Valen Elliott, tremendous matchmaking. Shepchenko versus Chukagangang, Terrell match. match. I read on Twitter that someone said she said that she was asked about the odds and that she

said maybe they thought out as my sister. So even Antonina apparently was surprised. Again, I saw this in Twitter so I'm not sure the veracity of this quote, but apparently at least even she was somewhat surprised by how the odds makers had picked her. Yeah, I don't know if it goes differently with Valentin in the corner. I'm sure it'd be more a little bit of a less unpleasant experience. Maybe she could have helped her out of some of those trouble spots, but

No, as we said, Chagagan, look, she's a number two contender for a reason. She is a very good fighter. And also, that small cage, there was just no escaping. Whatever, with the game plan that Chagian's team had come up with for tonight, small cage, no way to get away from that. As you can see there, any final questions before we all get some sleep? Well, we just saw that Dana White one. Okay. Can you bring the Dana White, John Jones question up, Casey, if you don't mind?

I just want to see it. All right. Jeffrey Ortega. Alex, I'm getting to throw you the question because I don't want to answer this right now. I will. But who's lying? John Jones or Dana White? Because we've seen this go on for three, four days now.

Okay? Yesterday, Dana White had a much different approach to this John Jones situation than he did tonight. Tonight he said that John Jones and Hunter Campbell had a, not just a conversation, but they had a very good conversation. And things, I don't know if they were worked out or not, but it was a very good conversation, much different direction than it was before. So do you believe John Jones when he says what he says that he didn't ask for Deante Wilder money? Or do you believe Dana White when he

says that he did ask for Deante Wilder money? Okay, well, I'm glad that this does not appear to be a binary question because they're both lying. Obviously, neither of them is telling the full, neither of them is telling the full truth. What are we doing here? Are we taking social media quotes as truth or anything that Dana White says is true? Come on now. Danny White said, today, like, what do I have to gain from lying? I said, you have a lot to gain from lying. You've lied before, and you've gained from it, and you could lie again and gain from it in the future.

Let's not be naive here, okay? Of course, it was not to say everything they're saying is a lie, by the way. The truth is clearly somewhere in between. But I don't know if I believe John Jones saying that he never threw out a number. I think that's what he said. It never got to the point of negotiation, some to that effect. Like, you know, so he said, I don't believe that. I'm sure he mentioned something.

Danny White certainly cannot be believed. he was asked point blank today, I believe, by Oscar Willis, that are you going to show those text messages? He's like, why should I? What do I have to gain me from showing the text messages? I was like, well, why would you even bring them up? How can you bring them up to reinforce your opinion and then say, oh, but I'm not going to show them to you. So I'm not thinking he has to show it. I'm just saying as long as he doesn't, we are allowed to question his claims. So both guys are lying to some degree. Both guys are telling the truth to some degree. I know that sounds like I'm on the fence, but really I'm just telling you guys to be smart and just use your logic as far as figuring out, What is fact that these guys are bringing up? And what is fiction?

It's not that hard to sort. So we have, like, conflicting arguments here. Joseph Boza says, Dana's lying. Egy bra, I believe it was. So John Jones is lying. Egy bra. Egy bra. Egy bra.

You guys are both right. I will say, I'll say I believe Dana more today. Okay. He didn't throw out any numbers. He said Deonté Wilder money. And if you go back and do your research, you know that Deonte, you know, contractually was scheduled to make $30 million or so dollars for his last fight. Dana White tonight said that John Jones said, I don't know, 15, 20 million, okay? 15 million, I don't think is that unreasonable for a guy like John Jones.

He's probably making five, at least five for every fight when it comes down to it. Once you, like, dot the eyes and cross the teas and throw the, you know, the little under the table stuff. It's probably close to five with the with the pay-per-view points and all that stuff. I would say that. But for a fight like this, which would do really well, I think, I think just even the casual fans would be into this because France and Gano is such a killer and they all know who John Jones is. I don't think 15 is that unreasonable. I don't.

And our own Mike Chiapetter wrote a great column about this today, which you can find on M.A.fiting.com. But if he wants $15 million, give him the $15 million, for Christ's sake. I mean, come on. Look, and look, even in Ghanu, in Ghanu, I think they said made 130,000 guaranteed, I think, for his last fight. And I don't know, maybe there's a plus 130 win bonus, but even less than $300,000 for the excitement that someone like Francis Ganoo brings to the cage for the streak he's on, the name that he's kind of made for himself, that's absurd. That's absurdly low. And I think I'm not going to pretend. I know the exact financial details of the UFC, but I think people will be shocked if they ever found out, you know, how much money the UFC makes.

And by the way, the UFC is pretty big on touting its own success when it wants to, when it's convenient to do so. So think about that and how much, like it would not destroy them to compensate someone like John Jones, like he said, what he's asking, 15 million, even like 10 million. Because if they can afford to pay Connor McGregor that much, I can't remember, you know, allegedly he made, what, 30 million or something for a fight? That's what Connor McGregor said. You can afford to pay John Jones that much.

I'm not saying he's a McGregor-level draw, but if he's the pound-for-pound best fighter and someone who has proven he can draw against certain opponents in the past. And I think Inganu would be one of them, then, yeah, $15 million is not unreasonable. So, like I said, not everyone's telling the truth, but there is truth in some of the statements that these guys are making. Yeah, throwing Ganu, seven figures, you know, a million bucks, even a million. Even millions is a big step up for him. That's still, I'm sure he ain't turning down a million. John Jones has earned this at this point.

I don't have a problem with $50 million. I know we're in tough times, but we're still trying to keep this train moving, and that is the biggest fight you can make right now. Like, honestly, like there's other big fights out there, like Adasania versus Koss is a big fight, right? And then Usman v. Mazdal is a big fight. But I think Jones and Ghana is bigger than both of those fights.

Like, I think there's more intrigue with that, fight, then the other two, and it's not even close. And look, you bring out Usman, Mazvedal. You know, now, I don't know, I think it's Mazvedal who keeps saying that Usman has priced himself out of the fight. I'm just saying people, look into this. Like, you guys should know. Sorry, I'm sorry.

Yeah, you're right. Sorry, shout-outs, Eddie Bravo. I'm saying people, you got to realize, like, I've been saying this probably in a bunch of other shows we've done for me fighting that, like, if you want fights to happen, you guys have got to support this idea that fighters need to make more. I know in general with athletes, sometimes people think athletes get paid too much, but you can't have it both ways. You can't want everything you want, like every fight to happen and also say, well, but I also

don't care what fighters get paid. The reason these fights aren't happening, Uzman, I don't know how much is asking for, but he's very much in the right to ask for a certain amount of money and ask for more money to fight someone like Mazved al. And Mazved al should be asking for more money too. He shouldn't be blaming Usman for wanting more money. He should be working together so they can make more money. But that's a very far bridge and another discussion entirely.

Can you imagine if the UFC came out on Tuesday and said that John Johnson, Francis and Ghana was going to headline UFC 250 on five days notice? Like, this thing would just explode. I mean, it would be the biggest thing ever. It would be the biggest thing ever. And you know what? Wouldn't be surprising at all because why? Because MMA. MMA.

Nothing is surprising anymore. And if anything, it's the old joke. When Dana White says something isn't going to happen, it's probably going to happen at some point. So, but I don't know. So last thing I'm going to ask you, because I ask Jose, this question. I want to get your thoughts on it before we wrap things up. Within 90 days from right now, John Jones versus Francis Inganu will be at least booked. Oh, is it true or false? I'm asking you do you think within 90 days from right now, Jones versus Ngano will have either happened or at least

be booked for a future card? That is a good question. That is a good question. Because I'm an optimist, Mike. I am the eternal optimist. And I really want to see this fight. I've seen some people saying like this fight popped up out of nowhere. And it's like, no, this kind of came up, I believe as recently as last year when, you know, Jones was again making overtures towards possibly moving to heavy weight. And Ganu was certainly one of the names that people were like, man, it'd be cool to see Jones fighting Ganu. You know, it's like that's, that's something on paper I'd love to see. So this isn't new. I mean, the mutual discussion between them is, I guess, somewhat fresh. But the idea isn't new. This is, this has been brought up before.

Gosh, I want to be optimistic. But no, Mike, I don't think within 90 days we see the fight booked, unfortunately. I think there's a lot of very real, this is the optimistic part of me, that this is a lot of very real talk about negotiations and that it's making more people aware of why these big fights, you know, don't always happen. So I think for the good of the sport, it's not going to happen. And people will, you know, it'll make people think about why it didn't. or I hope so anyway. So that's the silver lining to it. There you go.

I saw an An remember on there, dot, dot, dots, but I'm really sure if there's anything before or after that. But I think we're a cryptic, cryptic from our own. Don't forget Chester, everybody, with Sage Northcutt, just looking, looking all sorts of shredded right now. Just making me feel. There we go. Yeah, I mean, that's what I look like pretty much anyway.

So Sage is really representing for both of us. Yes. Me too, obviously. I think we're done here. I think we've hit this card pretty hard. What a great show. We've done a great job. And shout out to all you guys for all the questions and stuff.

Love when that happens. We could chime in and do all this crazy stuff. But a lot happened tonight from start to finish. Great performances by all. I would clap louder, but my kid is asleep. And if I wake him up, my wife will be really pissed at me. So for Alex Kately, I am Mike Heck. Thank you guys all so much for watching all this post-fight coverage

and all the coverage for UFC on ESPN 9 throughout the week. Next week, it's pay-per-view time, which means things are going to even bigger. June 6th, next Saturday night, Amanda Nunes versus Felicia Spencer is the main event, and maybe if my idea comes to fruition, John Jones versus Francineganu. Unless one week's notice.

Promotional malpractice, sir. Promotional malpractice. But yes, back at the UFC apex, The new normal, my friends, UFC Apex. It's a pretty good card. They posted the graphic. It's a great card.

The main event, listen, say what you want about the main event. The rest of the card looks really good. It looks really good. Sterling versus Sanhagen. That fight is too good. That fight is too good. And the last thing I want to say is

the tweet of the night belongs to Marlon Marais for calling out Dominic Cruz. That fight I need injected into my body. And I've needed it for like three or four years right now. That is the fight. to make. There should be no hesitation. That fight needs to be booked ASAP. But for Alex Kaylee, I am Mike Keck. Thank you all so much. We are out of here. What the heck coming back on Thursday? We've got some other stuff in the works as well. But thank you all for tuning in.

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