MMA Fighting - UFC Vegas 74 Post-Fight Show | Was Kai Kara-France Robbed In Main Event Loss To Amir Albazi?

Episode Date: June 4, 2023

While most of the MMA community believes Kai Kara-France had done enough to bounce back from his loss to Brandon Moreno in the main event of UFC Vegas 74 on Saturday night, two of the judges disagreed, which led to Amir Albazi picking up the biggest win of his career via split decision. Although the fight was very competitive throughout the 25 minutes, does the scoring of the fight constitute a robbery? MMA Fighting's Mike Heck, Damon Martin, and E. Casey Leydon react to the promotion's return to the APEX, the scoring of Albazi's win over Kara-France, and whether or not the official scorecards did enough to change opinions of the result when it was initially read. Additionally, topics include Albazi calling for a title shot against the winner of the UFC 290 matchup between Brandon Moreno and Alexandre Pantoja and what his chances of getting it are, Jim Miller's 23 second knockout win, Karine Silva's nasty submission and not getting a bonus, Alex Caceres and Daniel Pineda's wild co-main event battle, and more. Follow Mike Heck: @MikeHeck_JR Follow Damon Martin: @DamonMartin Check out our full video catalog: http://goo.gl/u8VvLi Visit our playlists: http://goo.gl/eFhsvM Like MMAF on Facebook: http://goo.gl/uhdg7Z Follow on Twitter: http://goo.gl/nOATUI Read More: http://www.mmafighting.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Support for this show comes from the Audible Original, the downloaded two, ghosts in the machine. The Earth only has a few days left. Rosco Cudulian and the rest of the Phoenix colony have to re-upload their minds into the quantum computer, but a new threat has arisen that could destroy their stored consciousness forever. Listen to Oscar winner Brendan Fraser reprise his role as Rosco Cudulian in this follow-up to the Audible Original Blockbuster. The Downloaded, it's a thought-provoking sci-fi journey where identity, memory, and morality collide. Robert J. Sawyer does it again with this much-anticipated sequel that leaves you asking, What are you willing to lose to save the ones you love?

The Downloaded 2, Ghosts in the Machine. Available now, only from Audible. Support for this show comes from the Audible original, The Downloaded 2. Ghosts in the Machine. The Earth only has a few days left. Rosco Cudullian and the rest of the Phoenix colony have to re-upload their minds into the quantum computer, but a new threat has arisen that could destroy their stored consciousness forever. Listen to Oscar winner Brendan Fraser reprised his role as Rosco Cudulian in this follow-up to the Audible Original Blockbuster, The Downloaded.

It's a thought-provoking sci-fi journey where identity, memory, and morality collide. Robert J. Sawyer does it again with this much-anticipated sequel that leaves you asking, what are you willing to lose to save the ones you love? The downloaded two, Ghosts in the Machine, available now only from Audible. We're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network. But you're hearing the victory horns, and while most people think the victory horn should have been for Kikar, France, they're not for Kai Kar, France. Amir al-Bazi picks up the big.

biggest win of his career via split decision. And after a week off from UFC events, we've got some controversy. And the first main event back at the apex is we welcome you to the UFC Vegas 74 live post fight show here at MAAfighting.com. Thank you for joining us. Clearly a lot to talk about this main event. I am Mike Heck. And joining me.

And by the way, let's all wish this man a happy four year anniversary with MMAfighting.com. The great Damon Martin, the host of Fighter versus Writer, actually the co-hosts along with the great Matt Brown. Damon, how are you, sir? I am fantastic. I'm happy to be here for a post show. I know. I don't know if we've ever done a post show together after all this time. Yeah, I think we may have done one, but yeah, I'm generally on writing duty after the fight,

so I don't generally get to do the post shows. I think we might have done like a knucklemania one. Yeah, that might have been. I think that might. Yeah, maybe that's what it was. I think that's what was. Yeah, I think we did that one. Yeah.

So. Yes. Well, I mean, what a time for you to join us on a post-fight show because Amir al-Bazi wins a split decision over Kikar, France. And pretty much everybody that I saw on Twitter scored the fight for Kikar, France. The only person that I didn't see score for Kikar-France was Bilal Mohammed. And I'm not really surprised by that. So how did you score the fight, Damon?

I had it 48 47 Kai Kar France I didn't really think it was that controversial of a scorecard although I will say there were a couple of close rounds in there I could see going one of I mean the only really I mean there were a couple of pretty clear rounds but I think three of them

could have been fairly close so I don't know I wouldn't go as far as a robbery I don't know if I go as far to say robbery there were a couple close rounds in there and you scored them for Albaazi I wouldn't say you're totally wrong although I did feel pretty comfortable with 4847 for car france but um again i think it's really coming down to whether the judges were scoring aggression which we know that shouldn't be the top criteria uh aggression and albazi was the one throwing the power punches versus car france throwing a lot of the volume punches uh again

i'm not saying it's right or wrong i'm just saying like in my head that's why i think the judge has scored it the way they did so i had a 4847 kai car france as well i was fully expecting i i'm I'm the one that's tweeting out the results. So I had written Kai Kar-France defeats Amir al-Bazi via unanimous decision, and I was just waiting for the cards. I thought we're going to get like a couple 48-47s, maybe a 49-46 for Kai-Car-France because I was wondering, well, maybe a judge gave Cairo-France the first round. And then to me, if that's the case, then that would be a 49-46 for Kai-Car-France,

the way I had scored the fight. But not the case, however. and I was very surprised to see Amir al-Bazi win the fight. I don't know if I'm ready to say robbery either. I'm teetering over there, though. Like I'm leaning there, but I'm not quite there. So I'm probably in the same boat as you. I believe Casey has the scorecards,

because I would love to see what this looks like. All right, so there's the cards. Two of the judges gave Kai Kar-France the first round. I thought Kai Kar-France clearly won the second round. All three judges gave round two to, Amir al-Bazi, which I find kind of surprising. I thought it was a clear third round for Al-Bazi. That was the near-submission attempt.

I thought he had a submission on Kaikar-France. Kar-Franz was able to escape it, got some momentum heading into the fourth. I thought it was a clear fourth round for Kai-Car-France. Chris Lee gave the fourth round to Amir al-Bazi, which I just don't know what world you can give round four to Amir. And round five, to me, was a clear Kai-Car-France round. So what do you think of the cards? you see them, Damon.

Just two and four just seems like to me that those are four especially. But I felt pretty comfortable coming out around two that Kikar France won that round. I feel like Mike Bell is the one who who had it pretty much the exact same way I had it. And I think that's probably the way you had it as well, Mike. Am I guessing that's right? So I gave one to Albaazi. I gave two to Carr, France. And then I gave three to Albaozy and I gave four and five to Carr France.

But one was the one I was like, well, maybe they gave it to Carr, France because there's a very close round so it could be 49 46 but I had to 48 47 I gave obazzy round one yeah it's it's it's hard to say because there's a couple of those this is see it's when you get when you hear the scorecard you're 4847 and again I'm I'm standing by the fact that there were a couple of really close rounds on there and you know it was a close fight but when you see 48 47 you're like okay well that that makes sense it's you know that's pretty much what I had it and then you look at the scoring round by round and that's always where you start shaking your head because you're like, okay, the fourth and the fifth seemed pretty clear for

Cara France. To me, those were, you know, just as much as the third round. It was the first two that were a little bit closer, I guess. Round five, round four and round five, to me, I don't have, I don't have an issue. I mean, to me, Carr France won those rounds. I mean, just, round three was clearly the most dominant round where Abazi had the back and nearly got the choke and everything. But yeah, that's kind of, again, that's where you start shaking your head and you sort of seeing the individual round scoring and you're like, hold on now. Like 48, 47 makes sense. But how did you score certain, like that would be like the third round going to

Carr, France? Like, how in the world would you give that round to Card Car, France? Same kind of thing here where it's like four and five, it's one and two to me were the toughest rounds to score now that I'm remembering and looking at the scoring. Round three was pretty clear. And rounds four and five to me were fairly clear now that I'm trying to think about it. So yeah, the score, that's always what gets me riled up. because I start looking at the individual rounds.

I'm like, oh, you guys did good. 48, 47. Makes sense. And then I see how you scored a 4847. I'm like, no, you screwed up again. It was like, I'm trying to like remember a fight where I kind of felt the same way. Patty Pimble, Jared Gore may not be like the best example. But like, the more I went back and watched that fight, the more I was like,

maybe you could give it to Patty. But then just the way they one judge scored the third round for Patty when even Patty He was like, I took that round off. I didn't even try. And judge, someone still scored that round for Patty. I'm like, eh, that doesn't seem right. But yeah, I mean, I'm, I'm not on team robbery, but if it's between like team fair and team robbery, like, I ain't Switzerland. I'm probably on the border of robbery, but I just haven't gone over the, over the state lines yet, if that makes sense.

I'm not, I'm not, I'm not ready to call it a robbery because, again, I think it was a very close fight. have an issue with is how it got scored, as I said. I have a bigger issue with that than the actual result, because when you're telling me that the reason, I mean, again, what was the fight that happened? Oh, is Al Jermaine Sterling and Henry Sehuto? Like, you know, the one round that was clearly for Henry Sehuto. That's a great example.

And Algebra and Sterling got it. Now, I think the right guy won. I think Al Jermaine Sterling won that fight. I had him ruining four rounds to one. I would have been, I think that would have been, to me, in my mind, a much bigger robbery based upon the round scoring to give it to Indus Sudo, but it's only because that one judge screwed up the fifth round that Al Jemaine actually got the win, which again is remarkably stupid.

But again, that's just how scoring goes. So again, here I don't think it's a robbery. I would lean closer to the, you know, just close fight and, you know, give it either going either way on the way the scorecards. But then when you actually break down the scorecards, that's where the issues arise again. That's where you're like, how in the world do you give four or five to Amir al-Bazi? It's just, again, this is, it just boggles the mind. And I truly, Mike, I truly do believe I was, I was writing my recap for the fight.

And I pretty much had it, like you said, on the results, I pretty much had it written for Kikar, France, based on the last couple rounds. I'm telling you right now, the judges will never speak about this. So we'll never actually get to hear their side of things. But I guarantee you, it was Albaazi marching forward, throwing the big power punches, and going for takedowns the one in the fight. Now, we all know, based on the scoring criteria, thank you, Laura Sanko, for pointing that out a couple times during this event. That's not actually the case. But if I was like going to talk to these guys and they were going to justify their scores, I guarantee you that's what they would say made the difference

for them. I'm looking at MMA decisions, not that this is the, the be all end all, but let's see, one, two, three, four, five, ten, fifteen, nineteen, nineteen, of twenty one, one, one, media members scored it for Kai Kar-France, 10 of which, which is more than the others, 10 scored at 49-46 Cara-France, 9 scored at 48-47, Kai-Car-France, and Bloody Elbow. And, I mean, you can just go look it up. So I'll say the name is Paul Fontaine from the Wrestling Observer, both scored it for Amir-A-A-Bosie. So a couple people did see it for Amir. I just don't really know how you got there, especially going round by round.

But there you go. So, I mean, we can talk about scoring and all this all we want, but Amir al-Bazi gets on the microphone, Damon, and says, it's my title shot now. Brandon Moreno and Alexander Pantosier again, ready to fight at UFC 290 on July 8th, international fight week. And he says, I demand the winner. It's my shot.

Let's do it in Abu Dhabi. Does he have a case here, or is he just kind of waiting for Brandon Roy Val to get his shot first, and he's probably going to have to fight at least one more time for he sniffs a title shot? I think it depends on how the UFC wants to play that card in Abu Dhabi. I mean, he's not wrong in the idea. I mean, he's from Iraq, you know what I mean? Like he's going to have a massive fan base of it.

It's like, it's really what is becoming Benil Darius's saving grace coming up against Charles Olivares because, again, Benile Darius, if he beats Charles Olaver, he absolutely deserves the title shot. But doing it in Abu Dhab against Islam, Mahachia is a big fight. I mean, that's just, you know, Benil from the area. Islam obviously has a huge fan base over there. That will actually be a really big fight. Now, don't get me wrong, you know, Dustin Porre or Justin Gates, it would also be a big fight.

But that, to me, is helping Benil Daryush's case. And I think, realistically, that's helping Amir al-Bazi. He's from Iraq. He knows there's going to be a massive outpouring of support for him over there in Abu Dhabi. So I don't think he's crazy. I think it's actually a pretty smart call out if you really think about it. I mean, we know Devinston Figuero is out of the picture right now in Flyweight. you know, so like in terms of contenders

and you look at guys, Brandon Roy Val is obviously right there. But if the UFC actually does this, and again, that's a big if because we got to let Moreno and Pantosia play out in July. And if Pantosia wins, I wouldn't be shocked that they would just do an immediate rematch because they have history. But, you know, we'll see. But depending on how that fight goes and if there is a clear winner and let's say Moreno wins, they got two choices.

They can go to Mexico with Brandon Moreno, which I think is a very smart choice. which I think they probably should have done anyways with him and Alexa Grasso and some of the other great stars. We have obviously Iyer Rodriguez as another example of that. Or you could go to Abu Dhabi. And Amir Abazi does have a legitimate case to say, hey, I'm one of the guys who hasn't fought for a title. I'm now going to be in the ranked in the top five.

And that's going to be a bigger fight in Abu Dhabi. So I don't think he's crazy. I think it's actually a very smart callout. I don't think he's crazy. I mean, I think that's what you should call. You can't say, well, I probably didn't win that fight so I don't deserve a title shot. So when you get on the microphone and even if he didn't call somebody,

how Michael Bisbing would have said, oh, come on, give me a name. No, I'm not really going to call. No, no, no, no, come on, come on. I'll list you 10 names. Just pick one. Like Biswick just really wanted people to call people out tonight. But hey, Abazi gets the win.

He's on a roll right now. And either way, I thought his stock rose tremendously. Because I even tweeted out 48, 47 Kai Kar, France, but Amir al-Bazi's got to be hanging around the top five for years to come. I was impressed with what he did. I just felt like heading in Kikar, France, just fought the better competition. He's been in these five-round fights.

He's been in these spotlights before, and I just felt like that experience was going to pay off. And I felt like that's kind of how the last two rounds went. I just think his experience played out, his ability to overcome adversity and come through on the other side. It's played out pretty much the way I thought it was going to play out. I thought someone was going to get finished in this fight. It didn't really happen.

But good for Amir al-Bazi, I guess. Yes, he got the job done and he moves on to bigger and better things. A lot of people are going to disagree with me about this and that's fine. But this is, I mean, again, I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with the decision. I scored it for Kai Kar-France. Let me be clear about that. But this is the better result for the UFC because Carr-France has had his shot. He's been there towards the top of the division a couple of times.

He had the interim title shot and he lost. Al-Bazzi's undefeated in the UFC. He does, again, have the fan base in the Middle East. and they are expanding and doing a lot more cards in Abu Dhabi. Realistically, this is a better scenario for the UFC because Cara France wins, he's not getting a title shot again anytime soon. He's just not. I mean, yes, if Pantosha wins, it resets a division a little bit,

but he's not getting a title shot anytime soon. Realistically, Albaughzi could, you know, whether he does right now or whether he has to win one more, that's, that's, you know, we'll wait and see how that plays out. But realistically, like it or not, Albaozy winning is better for the UFC and the flyweight division because we are kind of getting a fresh crop of contenders in there now because we had to go to that Moreno, Figurato, what do we call it, quadruple, quadrology, whatever it's called, Tetrology, whatever it is.

We had to go through all that. And now we're actually getting a reset, you know, maybe Manel Cobb had a great chance to make his argument. If he would have fought Figurato, I think he would have been a great case to earn a title shot. Unfortunately, we know that's not happening. I know Menel Cop told me he wants Brandon Royval. That's the fight he wants now. I think that would be a barn burner, you know what I mean? and that would easily submit the number one contender.

But yeah, Albaazi winning is a better scenario, like it or not, is a better scenario for the UFC? Because Carr, France, wasn't going to get a title shot, and he probably wasn't going to threaten for that title shot next anyways. I can see where you're coming from with that. So Amir gets the win. Kikar France is now lost two straight. He seems to be very mentally strong.

So I think he'll be a little pissed off. He might eat his feelings a little bit tonight. Might have a couple of libations more than he. He had planned, but he'll come back and maybe we do Kikar for Inns versus Minnell Cop later on this year. I'd watch the crap out of that fight. Bonuses, Damon. Yeah, that's a good. I mean, Manel Cop versus pretty much anybody you could sign me the hell up for.

Bonuses, I want to get your take on this, Damon, and see if you agree with this. The fight of the night, I think was pretty clear. I love the main event. And if they gave the main event the fight of the night, I wouldn't have complained about it. But Alex Casares and Daniel Paneda beat the living crap out of each other. for 15 minutes. So that was obviously the fight of the night. You knew that was going to get it.

Performance bonuses, Mohamed Naimov, who knocked out Jamie Malarkey, you knew he was getting one. And then it was kind of a toss-up. Was it going to be Jim Miller, who was heavily favored against a guy stepping in on two or a half, three days notice in Jesse Butler?

Jim Miller just pulverized him in 23 seconds. Or do we go with Karine Silva, who gets a main card opportunity and put, on this leg lock. They called it a knee bar. I don't even know what we're going to call it. I think we're going to have to create some sort of a name for it because it looked like it could have been a heel hook, but it wasn't really one. And then could have been a knee bar, but it was like something in between it. Don't really know. We saw the leg snap nasty. And they gave it to Jim

Miller. Do you agree with this? Oh, man, you really put me in the spot here. Part of me says, yes, I do agree with it for one, for, you know, one major reason. It's Jim Effing Miller. And when that guy goes out and scores the fastest knockout. Fastest finish of his UFC career. He had a 58 second finish or 54 second finish over Clay Gweed a couple years ago with the guillotine choke, I believe it was. When that guy is, you know, on his 25th UFC win and he scores a 23 second knockout over a late replacement list, I understand Jesse Butler, you know, two days notice, was he

really fit to be in there? Was he really worthy of a Jim Miller? Probably not. But, you know, come in there, some, you know, go big or go home. And he certainly is going home with a knockout loss on his record. So part of me's like, man, give that guy a bonus. Give Jim Miller a bonus. He absolutely deserves it.

And I'll stand by that because I love Jim Miller. And I think that guy's just getting extra $50,000 every time he wins. I don't care what he does. That being said, Corrine Silva, man, that was one of the nastiest leglock submissions. And I think it kind of bums me out sometimes that the prelim fighters kind of get overlooked. It seems like a little bit. And I know the prelims and main cards on these apex cards all blend together anyways. So, you know, is it really matter whether you're on the prelims?

prelims of the main card, but it does feel like the main card does get a little bit more consideration with bonuses. And listen, it is Jim effing Miller. I mean, the guy's a legend. And for him to go out there and score a 23 second knockout, it was a, it was a nasty knockout. It wasn't just like he took him down and landed some ground and pound or he clipped him and caught him and he went down. He flattened that dude, fold him in half. Yeah, I mean, I don't have a problem with him give it to Jim Miller, but I really, I really wish this is one of those scenarios where Dana White would pull out the checkbook and say, here, Karine, Silva, you can. get 50k as well yeah i think he's speaking with the media right now so i'm sure somebody probably

asked him about that and i'm sure he's probably gonna say that he's gonna take care of her because how can you not that was one of the nastiest submissions you'll ever see uh yeah that that that made 23 seconds i kind of figured jim was going to get the bonus over karine that we said that i was talking to kasey about this before we went on and i was like 23 seconds and the way he knocked him out it's gonna be hard not to give him a bonus ceres daniel pinata was clear-cut fight of the night tim elia gets a nice win over Victor Altamarano. That man needed something good to happen in his life. And he went out there and put on a hellacious pace and got the win.

We mentioned Creane Silva. Eliza Zaleski gets a sputty over Abu Bakkar and Murmaga Madoff. Some people weren't really happy with that decision either. Daniel Santos kicked Johnny Munoz in the balls real hard twice and got a unanimous decision despite getting a point taken away. Dantel Mays knocks out former heavyweight champion, Andre Arlofski, John Cassadenaena. and Mu and Gaffaroff had a pretty damn good fight.

That was a good one, Damon. We were, we were, like, tweeting back and forth. We were like, oh, man, we got the Naimov knockout. The momentum is starting to shift a little bit after that. And then Cassadenaenae and Gaffaroff put on a hell of a fight. And I feel like those two guys deserve a little bit of shine tonight. Yeah, that was a good one as well. That was a really fun way.

There were a couple good ones. Like I said, there were a couple of good, early fights that really did have kind of show-stealing potential. And then, of course, Casares and Paneda come out there. And it's like I said like next week's card, you'll see 289. Like you're already behind an eight ball because you got Dan Egey fighting Nate Landware on the main card. Like if you're anywhere else trying to get a fight at the night

on next week's card, you're kind of like, damn it, I got to go against these guys. And that's kind of what you looked at with Casaris and Paneda. You're like, we really have to steal the show if we're going to take the bonus away from these guys. Yeah, that was a great fight. Elise Reid gets a win over Jin U Fry.

We'll see what happens with Jin. I think both women were probably fighting for their jobs, but we'll see what happens. DeMont Blackshare gets a nice finish Leone Lassarda just really wanted to get that leg locked up and Daman Blackshare is like, nah, dude, I can defend this. I'm just going to punch you in the face a million times

so the referee stops the fight. And Philippe Lins remains undefeated as a UFC light heavyweight defeats Maxim Grishin in a fight where probably, which is good for Philippe. He gets the win bonus, but probably not a fight we're going to go back and watch again. So that is... Mike Heck, that is the last.

time you will ever mention Felipe Lenz versus Maxim Grisham. Be honest, you will never utter those two words again in the same sentence after tonight. Unless we break Philippe's next fight, we have to say like in his most recent appearance, he defeated Maxim Grishin being in his description. Yeah, so that fight happened and that's how the night began. So boarding for flight 246 to Toronto is delayed 50 minutes. Ugh, what? Sounds like Ojo time.

Play Ojo, great idea. Feel the fun with all the latest slots in live casino games and with no wagering requirements. What you win is yours to keep groovy. Hey, I won! Boarding will begin when passenger Fisher is done celebrating. 19 plus Ontario only. Please play responsibly. Concerned by your gambling or that if someone close, you, call 186653310 or visit Comexonterio.ca. With Amex Platinum, $400 in annual credits for travel and dining means you not only satisfy your travel buck.

But your taste buds too. That's the powerful backing of Amex. Conditions apply. Let's bring in Casey. I'm sure the peeps have a lot to say. I'm sure most of them are just really pissed off at the judges right now and just yelling robbery and all of that. And I got to say, if you're a fan, I ain't here to blame you.

If that's how you feel, I'm not here to fight with you on that. I gave where I'm at, you guys think it's a close. clear-cut robbery, have at it. I ain't gonna, I'm not here to fight with you. But a lot of people are pissed off. Israel Adasanya is livid about this decision. He is pissed. He is tweeting up a storm.

Yeah, I really think it's how, like, like Damon said, it's how the rounds are scored. I think it's, it's justifiable that Albaazi won, even though, I think we have about 95% of media having it for KKF. But the interesting part, round four, I go to the, so on the great website, MMA decisions.

They have 94% of fans having round four for Kikar, France. Which is, it was like, so round four, round five were identical, 94%. So, yeah, it's wild. Oh, what's interesting about this is I completely agree, Damon. It's the cards. Because if two of those judges scored the first three rounds for Amir al-Bazi, we would not be having this conversation right now. We would not be having.

We would do the whole close fights aren't robberies, you know, or whatever. We're doing that whole conversation. But if you look at the scorecards and you by round four, it makes zero sense. Yeah. How could you? Yeah. I just wish we had. That's exactly what I was saying.

Like if you, when I, when I opened this show, I said, ah, it's a close fight. You know, I can't really see, you know, I can't really have a problem with Albaazi winning. Then you showed me the score card. then I have a problem because that's where you lose me because you scored it wrong. I don't have a problem with Albazi winning as much as I have a problem with how you scored him winning. Yeah. And that was like Derek Cleary, because you mentioned Sehudo Al Jermaine Sterling. Derek Cleary scored the fifth round for Al Jamein when that was like clear as day Henry Sehudo's round.

Like Henry Sehudo clearly won that fifth round that fifth round. That's the only round I scored for Sehudo. I had a 4-1 Al Jamein with the fifth round being for Sehudo. We had identical. But luckily. It was insane. It's if he scored the fight correctly, if he scored that round correctly, Henry Suhudo's the frigging Bannamweight champion right now,

which is just wild to even say into a live microphone. Unbelievable. How different would our world be right now if Henry Sehudo was the Bantamway champion? Oh my gosh. I don't want to think about it. All right. Sorry, let's go to some questions. Yes.

Yeah, we'll take a few questions. Yeah. Like I said, like we said earlier heading into this one, there's not a ton of storylines coming out of this, this card, but I feel like this decision is something we're going to be talking about for a few days. You know, but that's what sucks about this card too, about this decision because we're talking about the wrong things. We're not talking about. I mean, I was, I had my mind. I was prepared to say, hey, Albaazi, he may have lost his fight, but he is a legit flyweight contender. I could, I don't know he might he won't, he won't fight for the title. this year, but I can see in the next two, three years, we are going to see him in the top five, top ten for a long time. You know, he's already in top ten, but we're going to see him top five very soon. And now it's just, yeah, it just sucks. It sucks for Albaozzi.

Definitely sucks for Kai Kar, France. But, yeah, I just, I'm kind of tired of going to the same conversation after big fights. I want to talk about the actual fight, not what three randos around the cage, how they scored the fight. So it's just frustrating. I just want the judges to, like, just say what, like, they should be a part of the press conference. Yes, yes. I don't.

Like, why can't we change this? Come on. I don't get it. I don't get it. But there's also, and there's, let's also. And listen, I want to give credit or credit is doing on the commentary team tonight. Laura Sanker did a tremendous job when she talked about scoring. And you'll not find a bigger Michael Bisping fan person.

I love Michael. I love that dude. I love Michael Bisping for a lot of years. but sometimes when he talks about scoring I'm like scratch on my head like I seriously want to text him after the fight but like dude like do you not like no because he actually at one point he's like

he had a problem with them not scoring defend like he wasn't saying it's he was basically saying it's wrong that they don't score defending takedowns and I'm just like Mike what are you doing here you're killing me here with some of this commentary on the scoring I love you man but come on Sanko was great tonight

she was fantastic Laura Sanko is so good in the color commentary booth. That's all. She's just, she's wonderful. I do. I can actually, I literally, I learn things when Laura Sanko is talking about the fights. I go, oh, okay.

I just, she's gray and I just really hope the UFC starts giving her bigger cards, bigger fight nights, paper views. I just hope that's the direction they're going because she's a great asset to the UFC. My only, my only, and I don't understand. like Laura is so good and they should put her on more cards and I don't mean that they should take away cards from guys like Paul Felder, Michael Bisping, Daniel Cormey, who are all tremendous. I like all those guys. So I'm not saying take away cards from them to give to her. But they, like, I think she would have been great for next week's pay-per-view.

I think that would have been tremendous for her first pay-per-view. I mean, again, you got to ease them into a little bit. It's not the biggest card. Let's be honest. It's not the biggest pay-per-view. Women headline would have been cool with that. And also you avoid the one, the only issue I had tonight was her calling Tim Mellius' fight. That's her teammate.

And it's not Laura Sanko, by the way. I have the same issue when it's Daniel Cormey. I have the same issue when it's Paul Felder. I hate when they put the commentators on when they have clear, you know, kind of conflicts and interest. And again, I think she did as good of a job she could do, but it's still a conflict when you're calling your freaking teammates fights. The one thing I will give, uh, Laura, first I did a great job. commentating that fight, but she, I don't know if she said I'm biased,

but she, she told the, she told the audience many times, I trained of him. I've seen him train, you know, it wasn't like she was just kind of saying stuff about him. So I,

I felt the audience at least, because we know, but I don't, I don't think the audience, for the most part, knew that, you know, they,

they were in the same gym for years. So, uh, yeah. And it's not, it's, as I said, I thought she navigated it pretty well, but I'm, I'm saying,

like, across the board. Oh, in general. Just don't do it. Just don't like, you could have put her on UFC 289 and put, you know, Felder or somebody else this week. Let her do 289. I think that would have been a tremendous card for her to call pay-review.

And then you avoid this conflict. Like, I thought she did as good of a job as she could. But I'd say the same thing when, you know, when Daniel Corme is calling Kabim's fights or if he was calling, you know, whoever. Like, I don't, I don't like it when they put those guys in that situation. Agreed. Agreed. It's just unnecessary.

And it just, luckily, I think. think with uh tim winning it it wasn't like there was nothing controversial in the fight really to kind of make it weird but uh yeah in general i don't know why the ufc does it but do the questions uh oops i'm sorry blow this stuff do too small uh does the ufc need to keep doing cards of the apex i think cards of the apex hurt the fighters look at tonight people are pissed that are mirrors 5 and oh in the UFC. I mean, would it have been worse if he got booed out of the building like when he was giving his post-fight speech? I don't know.

Like, it's not going away, everybody. Yeah. I, I, like, this fight is not selling tickets. You know what I mean? Like, just look at some of these fight night cards. They're not selling tickets. You say, you say booed out of the building. If they sold tickets to this, there would have been nine people booing him out of the building because no one's buying tickets to this card. Let's be honest. I mean, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not insult.

I'm saying like this is not a card you're going to be able to sell $20,000 or $10,000 tickets to or $9,000. But you know what? You don't need to put it in a basketball arena. I go to lots of boxing events for Showtime, Showtime boxing, and they'll have it in venues for like 5,000 people, 6,000 people. You don't have to do 20,000, 15,000 seat arenas. Do a 6,000 seat arena. And I think, you know, like the U.S. you used to do the palms, you know, things like that. I don't understand.

But then just a couple weeks ago. Where do they have Mara? Marab and Jan. They had that in Casano that was in Power slap. Yeah.

And that was great. And think of what you changed. Like, I talked about, we talked about this internally a little bit, but like, imagine if Paneda Casares was in just a crowd.

It doesn't have to be 30,000 people, 10,000 people, but just 5,000 people. That fight has a completely different feel. You know, I just, it just sucks. I don't know.

I don't know. I know why the UFC does it. I'm just bummed they do. I'm bummed they do that now just because I feel like they're being lazy. I think, I think these, these apex cards are not going away. They're just not.

It's too, it's too, it's too, it's too, it's too cost effective for the UFC to continue doing this. They just said, Brendan Fitzgerald said in the broadcast, they're going to do the next four months.

Every Saturday night, there's a UFC event. And I'd imagine at least a third of those are going to be at the apex. Because again, listen, I'm not, I swear to, I'm not trying to, I like, I like that some of these, like, I love that we got Kai Kar,

France and Amir al-Basie is the main event. I'm glad these guys got the opportunity. Now, they got the opportunity because another main event fell off. The Jack Kermanston fight fell off. Not that Brendan Allen and Jack Kermanston was the biggest fight in the world, but this was not originally a main event. Even that one would have been a tough sell. Sean Strickland and what is it, Albus Meg, Medov, Elvis Dumbledore, whoever he's

fighting from Harry Potter, where that guy's name is, that one, you know, Marvin Vittori and James, James, Eric Canaanere. I like that fight, but let's be honest, are people going to plunk down $100, $200 for tickets to see that? I'm going to guess no. So that's why they put them in the apex. Lower than that's why. Yeah. But and then the U.S. I'll say production calls to travel, to bring the octagon to, you know,

to, you know, po dunk, whatever city across the U.S., whatever. They're not going away. Do I agree? Do I wish they would go away? Absolutely. I'm 100% on board with the reader here, but I'm just saying, like, they're not going away. No, not a chance. Not with how many cards they have to put on. Yeah, it's just... Yeah, four months is just insanity.

Like, that's wild. Yeah, think about... Sorry, look at this question about Bruce Leroy. If you want to read that. Should Bruce Leroy be in front of fans? He has won seven of eight and did his streak in the apex? Yeah, all of his, I guess, his last week. That's two back-to-back fight bonus.

He had a knockout of the night against a Rosa and then a five of the night tonight. All of them were in front of dozens. A dozen. It's not even dozens. A dozen people. I feel bad for Bruce Leroy. I'm not saying,

I don't think the guy is going to be like the top 10 or five or a belt, but he deserves better. That's all. And I just, yeah. But I have to say it like into back to to Damon's point about ticket sales. Like I'm looking at ticket master right now for the Jacksonville.

card. There are a lot of tickets available for that card. And that is coming up in three weeks, three weeks from today. There's thousands of tickets left for that card. Like, if you go and look at each seat map, I mean, thousands of tickets left. And that's Josh Emmett versus Alir. Ilyar. I was going to say, Eliotsefee. I was like, what the hell am I talking about? Yeah, Iliate's Borea. Great fight. But is that a like a Jacksonville tent? Is that a talk? 12,000 seat arena main event? I don't know. I don't know how it's going to be.

It's going to be an early afternoon card because it's on ABC. You're asking a lot. I mean, the UFC had this streak of like 38 straight sellouts. And the one sellout they didn't get was the Kansas City car with Max Holloway and Arnold Allen. Now, that's a, I love that fight. That's a tremendous fight. Max Holloway is a legit name. Former champion, one of the greatest featherweights of all time.

But again, even that didn't sell out. people just probably weren't like willing to plunk down money for a ticket for that and you're running the same day with Joe. That's why I say the apex cards are never going away because they don't want to risk putting Marvin Vittori and Jared Cannoneer out there. And even a even a 8,000 seat arena and it sells 2,000 tickets. They don't want that visual. They don't want the visual of looking out in the crowd and there's 5,000 open seats. They don't want to do that. They want to try to put on shows where they can fill the arena, get as close to a sellout as possible.

So I feel bad for Alice Casares and he's been on this run because he's one of those dudes who always puts on entertaining fights. He's always excited how he lost to Crohn Gracie. I'll never understand. But how he's always exciting, always puts on exciting fights. And yeah, you know, I wish they would put him in front of fans because when you make fun matchups like Daniel Panetta, you know, there should have been a crowd there. That would have been so much better with a crowd in that fight. Yeah. Yeah, they go back to Phoenix or even if they, because I think he's training in Florida.

now or he's living in florida now like i mean i know they're in jacksville but they go back to florida again like he should fight there or in phoenix because he's got the you know he had the connection with the lab for so long like let him fight in front of people he like that that know him what was what's the car the ufco's um to was it um jacksonville no not jacksville the uh the uh cal uh oh uh touchy palace tachi palace tachi palace tachie palace talk chabalas bring us at tachie balance Come on, man. They got nothing to do up there. All right.

Do, do, do, um, oh, let's talk about this. God, why is this? Thoughts on the point deductions by Tyone and Herb Dean. No warnings prior, but once the file occurs, they are taking points. I had no issue with the Tyone point deduction. And I know what you was the headbutt, right? The headbutt. Yeah, that was, I mean, that was like, that should have been a point.

That was an agree, that was an egregious head. Yeah. And you know what? And the, the first ball thing was. It was nasty. That was a bad one. There's a photo of Johnny Munoz that he put it on on Twitter. He's holding a bottle of urine and it ain't it ain't clear and it ain't yellow.

It's red. It's red. It's disgusting. But I had no issue with the Tyone one. The Herb Dean one I've seen kind of back and forth on. Damon, what did you think about the point deductions tonight? I thought both were good. The head, the, well, leading with the head was pretty.

pretty clear cut. And for what, Chris Tanyone is one of those referees. I usually give a hard time because he doesn't do that. He's usually not a quick, you know,

pull on the trigger to do a point deduction. Herb Dean, I love Herb. I think Herb's, again, I know Herb has kind of lost his role of being the best referee in the business,

which I think now belongs to guys like Mark Goddard and Jason Herzog, but he's still a good quality veteran referee, and I think Herb gives way too many warnings and not enough point deductions. He is all about, hard warning, hard warning, hard warning,

and then finally he'll do a point deduction. I think it was justified to point deduction after a second low blow. And the first one being, I mean, the first one should have been an immediate point deduction. When you punt the guy in the in the, in the, in the nether region, you should just get a point deduction. I'm sorry. Like, that's just really, really bad. And that completely alters the direction of fight. And as it turned out when he took the point deduction the second time, it still did matter.

The fight outcome was still the way it was. And I know in a three, we got to, here's the thing about point deduction, guys. We got to stop looking at it as if you're penalizing them in a three-round fight. I know we all understand that, but a foul is a foul. Like, you shouldn't, there shouldn't be extra consideration just because you're in a three-round fight that it can completely alter the fight. We all understand that. Don't foul the guy.

Like, be more conscious of not ducking your head and leading with your head or kicking a guy in the babymaker. Like, don't do it. For the tionni, the headbutt, yeah, absolutely correct call. Sanco said, actually, Bisping was like, well, it was accidental. And then Sanco was pointed out,

no, that was reckless because literally like his head was up here and his arms were behind him. That was just, because there was a headbutt in another fight. What was that? There was another headbutt in a different fight later than night. And that was correctly called a, oh no, Arlowski, Donel Mase,

that had a headbut. But that was accidental. You know, it was clearly just two guys just, they both zigged when they you know yeah great by tioni and the herb team oh man the fight was the fight should have been over honestly johnny moose was i'm okay if not i i i i do think that that kick was slightly reckless but both of them were thrown kicks at the same time so kind of those things happen and unfortunately uh was johnny munio's that's his name right the guy they got Yeah.

Yeah. He just got hit much harder. Yeah. Sometimes, like, if it was that bad the first time, sometimes it's just, it's just not your night. And sometimes just it might be time to take a no contest. That's all. I mean, because if you're, if you're pissing blood after the fight from that, I mean, you, you're not going to win fights at this level. And he fought very weird after that fight.

I mean, I don't recall, is he ever pulled guard that much? I don't recall him fighting like that. Not that I can remember. Like that. Yeah. I mean, it was like, he was, it was hardcore porting guard like constantly where like it was like, oh, it's like, like, but, um, yeah, it was just unfortunate. But I'm glad her being did detect a point for the second time.

Yeah. If it happens the second time after that first one, you have to take a point. Yeah. You have to. People were saying like they should have taken a point the first one. I understand why he didn't the first one, but if it's the same foul again, you've got to do it. Sorry, you have to. Yeah.

Yeah. All right. Let's take a couple more. Terence Leverett celebrates nine months of membership. Greeny Silva killed it tonight. What's next for her? Happy anniversary, Terence. I will have an answer for that tomorrow and on to the next one.

What would you like to see you next next for Korean A Silva, Damon? You know, I mean, I know this sounds very generic, but just allow her to continue. building up and don't rush her. I mean, she's, what is she 16, 16 and 4 with 16 finishes. That's a pretty remarkable record, which, by the way, Daniel Panade also discredit. Every win he's ever had in his career, 28 wins all by submission or knockout. I mentioned that because that's pretty amazing, even though he didn't win tonight. I thought that was still a pretty incredible record when you think about how long that guy's

been around. 16 wins, 16 finishes, let her continue building up. There's no reason to throw her into Snake Pit. I know the divisions are a little more shallow in women's divisions now. than they used to be, especially at Banto went. But yeah, I gave her time to build up. Just let her go, let her continue to have fun fights. I know they're doing the card down in Sao Paulo in November.

I'm not saying that she should necessarily have to wait that long, but let her, let her have some fun. And because she's a fun fighter who goes for finishes, let her continue to do that for a little while before you throw her in the deep end of that pool. Yeah, pretty much. Someone, 13, 14, 14,000. 14, 15, even, you know, kind of top 20.

No, no reason to rush her. She's a very exciting fighter. Yeah. And just a fantastic, maybe one of the best submissions of the year in the UFC. Just like, immediately I came this close to texting my jihitsu coach. I was like, dude, what was this? Because that looks incredibly dangerous and awesome. Definitely, definitely one of the grossest submissions.

That replay they kept showing us like, do we really need to keep showing this? This is really bad. I know when you actually go, oh, oh, she tapped. And then you see the replay and you see the knee go like that. The little pop is like, oh, God. Like when Dana, when Dana White throws out the Instagram where he shows like the really gnarly cuts, like the up close gnarly cuts and full, you know, I'm a horror movie fan. None of that.

None of that gets me. I'm like, oh, that's kind of great. Like, that's kind of nasty. But none of that gets me. You show when someone's knees literally popping out of their, out of their leg, that's enough for me to kind of grim this little bit. Yeah, and the first, like, under two minutes of the fight, oh, man, what a, I mean, we know, we talk about, uh, I don't even know what his name. The guy that, the guy that lost to Jim Miller.

Like, who had a, who had a worse UFC debut, Butler or, uh, Susa? It took me, by the way, I don't know. I had to bring this up real quick. I was thinking, I was trying to think of this all night long in terms like the way that submission went. I know this is a weird comparison. but does anyone remember when Frank Mere caught Pete Williams with the arm bar from the bottom where he had his arm locked, he twisted it to the side, and it wasn't like a, it wasn't straightened an arm bar, like it was, he literally caught him almost like in a key lock from the

bottom and he twisted his arm and tapped on that way. Yeah, it was the other way. That's kind of what the knee reminded me of where like she didn't, she didn't straighten it out. She twisted when you watch her, she did it purposely because when you see her turn, she turned it, but she didn't have like the ankle or the heel completely locked out. It was just a nasty turn. It reminded me, even though that was an arm lock, not a leg lock, it reminded me of that when he caught Pete Williams, where

he just got him in a weird position and twisted it. Go watch the Frank Mirify. You kind of know what I'm talking about. Okay. Yeah, I don't know. I'm not familiar of that, but I can picture it. Yeah, a lot of people are calling it like a lateral knee bar, which isn't like really a thing of it, but essentially, you know, knee bar instead hyper extending it, hyper extending it this way, hyper, you just went the other way. And she did that by basically controlling the ankle and then using her knee to scar reaping and to reap her knee and just and just being a much more experienced grappler than her opponent and her opponent just kind of not recognizing it in time and you know i mean when i say in time you literally

only have like a second and a half but that's that's that's all no it's not very much time so let's just call it the let's just call it the reaper that's just a bad assay for the reaper yeah that was the We'll do that. My first thought for Craney still before we move on was Antonya Shepchenko. That was the first name I had in my mind. But then I realized that like Antonia Shepchenko doesn't appear like she's fighting anytime soon because she's like flying airplanes and shit and like loving life, like flying airplanes. So it doesn't seem like she's in any rush to come back to fight.

So we'll see. I have an idea. I think I have the right fight, but not too high and low. is Andrea Lee like is that like of that top I was saying Andrew Lee too that was actually I was I was like a bad one lost to Macy Barber like that that's kind of like where she's at that Bob in that top 15 like around that level maybe I'm going a little bit lower than that I'm going outside of the top 15 but not by much not by that that's kind that's kind of what I'm thinking those like in that range like not quite there but you know don't rush her is what I'm getting at

don't rush her there's no reason to do that but but you know but coming at Mike when we're talking the fan Q&A before, we're like, what fighter on this card outside of the main event? Are we looking at, you know what? They could be fighting for a title in a few years. And I think you were, I think you noted when you said, Crean Silva, Queen Silva.

Yeah. She, of all the fighters on the card, yeah, she looks very legit. So, yeah. She was on the main card for a reason. She was the main car for reason. I didn't think the UFC was like, hey, let's put her on the main car. She might, she's going to break her opponent's leg. but I think they expected her to go in there and do something impressive and get her out of there early

and that's exactly what she did. So yeah, good performance. Are we good? Or do we have anything? I think we're good. People, I know you're upset. I know you're upset. But if you're a newer fan, just deal.

Like, this is just going to be, if this is the first one of these decisions you've seen and you feel like this is the only time that's going to happen, trust me when I tell you, it's not going to be the only time. it happened. In fact, it was like the fourth, the third time it happened tonight. So real quick before we get out of here, can I throw out one idea? I had this. I'm not on. I'm not on to the next one, the tremendous, tremendous show that you do at A.K Lee. So I don't, I don't get to be on that show, but can I throw out a suggestion? Tonight, Jim Miller said, Jim Miller said, I'm going to keep going to want to stay busy. And I didn't be willing to go to welterweight. Let me just throw out the idea. He said,

I'd be willing to go to welterweight. Let me, I love legend fights. Jim Miller versus Matt Brown. Wellterweight, two legends, all-time knockout leader versus all-time win-leader. How could you not sell that as like a legit like main event or co-main event somewhere? And I'm saying this is a guy who does a podcast with Matt Brown, and a guy who absolutely adores Jim Miller. I love Jim Miller. So I'm kind of putting two of my favorites against each other.

He said, he'd go to Welchweight. I like when the UFC matches up fun like legend fights. Why not? That would be a fun legend fight. Or, you know what I'm just going to say it because I haven't decided yet. If Nick Diaz is going to fight again, I would not be opposed seeing Jim Miller versus Nick Diaz. I wouldn't throw Nick Diaz in there with really anybody else. At 170, not bad.

At 170. At 170. I would watch that. But yeah, I like the Matt Brown idea too. Yeah. There's many ways you can go with this. Yeah. If Nick does come back, I can see that Jim Miller and Jim Miller versus Matt Brown does seem pretty cool too.

Yeah, and that's who Jim Miller is right now. Like, don't, don't give him those guys. Give him, you know, give him fun fights. Kind of like, you know what, like video game fights. Like, oh, we can, we can fight these guys. Cool. You know, like, listen, I know that, you know, that's, he's going to be at a disadvantage. Matt's a lot bigger and all that.

But come on. It would be a fun, like Legends fight. Like, if you're going to lose a welterweight, wouldn't you rather lose to a guy like Matt Brown versus, like, losing to some rando. they throw you on the card with. Like that's the kind of fights. And that's the kind of fight Matt, that's the kind of fights Matt should have.

That's the kind of fight Jim should have. Like they're that, they're at that era now where they like, not to go back to our championship article guys, but I did the Legends Championship. Like, that's the kind of fight you do for a Legends championship. Throwing Jim Miller and Matt Brown and let them throw down the all-time knockout winner

against the all-time winner. Come on. Dude, Jim Miller versus Donald Soroni, International Fight Week was cool. Like, that was a nice thing. We got to see them fight each other. Jim Miller got a, finish and Seroni retired and it was like a nice moment.

They shared like a nice hug and it was just like it was a very nostalgic fight and like we didn't feel bad about it at all. Like even when Seroni got finished, we weren't like, oh man, like this is so bad to watch. We're like, hooray, this is fun even though Soroni got finished. We don't need to see either. Was that one 70? Seroni better or did Soroni come out? That was, uh, that was international fight week last year.

Does it? Was it well, was it? Was it a Waltz right? That's a Waltorite. Okay, it was Walter Wright before. Okay, I forgot. Yeah, see, there you go. Yeah, I just, what I don't want,

and I'm sorry to throw him under the busser, what I don't want to see any of these guys fighting Ehor-Pateria. I'm sorry, I don't want to see that. Coming up, coming up in August, UFC Boston, Jim Miller versus Armin Serukion. No, no, no, no, no. We're not doing that.

We're not doing that. Shut your mouth, heck. Get your mouth, heck. Let's your mouth, Mike, do not do this. All right, let's get out of it. Please don't do that. All right. I know and Jim Miller would take that fight in five seconds too.

That's the kind of dude he is. Well, it is what it is, guys. I mean, we can't turn back time. We just, we're going to be talking about this for a few days. And hopefully things change a year or two from now. But for now, this is the sport that we love so much. And sometimes we have bad taste in our mouths. And that's kind of what happened tonight.

But we have a paper view next week. UFC 289, Amanda Nunes versus Rainey Aldana. I still got vibes. I still got vibes. Something cool is going to happen. I like that thing. I'm pretty good about it. I'm digging it.

I'm feeling pretty good about it. Feeling pretty good about the vibes. We get Danny Gay, Nate Landware. Somehow Chris Curtis Nassardine Emovoff is on the prelims, but it is what it is, my friends. So for Damon, for Casey, happy anniversary, Damon, by the way, once more. And A.K. and I'll be back tomorrow for on to the next one. So have a good night, everybody. Thanks for watching.

You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network. You know, Thank you.