MMA Fighting - What the Heck: Episode 38 | Brandon Moreno, Calvin Kattar, Cub Swanson, Chase Hooper & Khaos Williams

Episode Date: December 17, 2020

This week on What the Heck, MMA Fighting's Mike Heck chats with Cub Swanson (4:35) to discuss his second-round KO win over Daniel Pineda at UFC 256. Calvin Kattar (26:38) previews his upcoming main event matchup with Max Holloway, and talks cornering Rob Font for his UFC Vegas 17 matchup against Marlon Moraes. Chase Hooper (42:53) recaps his third-round submission victory over Peter Barrett at UFC 256, gives his take on the commentary during the fight, and more, Khaos Williams (1:00:44) gets you ready for his UFC Vegas 17 matchup with Michel Pereira and how he sees the fight going down should his opponent start unleashing his capoeira style movements. Finally, Brandon Moreno (1:13:50) recaps his incredible fight with Devieson Figueiredo at UFC 256, discusses the fouls that happened in the second and third rounds, thoughts on Figueiredo being hospitalized on Friday, and much more. Follow Mike Heck: @MikeHeck_JR Subscribe: http://goo.gl/dYpsgH Check out our full video catalog: http://goo.gl/u8VvLi Visit our playlists: http://goo.gl/eFhsvM Like MMAF on Facebook: http://goo.gl/uhdg7Z Follow on Twitter: http://goo.gl/nOATUI Read More: http://www.mmafighting.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network. This is What the Heck with Mike Heck on MMAfighting.com. Now here is your host, Mike Heck. What the heck? Well, hello there, everybody, and welcome to a brand new edition of What the Heck right here on MMAfighting.com. I am Mike Heck. Hope you're all having a great week, perhaps still buzzing from that UFC 256 event this past Saturday night. that entire event ruled, in my opinion.

256 is the runaway event of the year. We'll be talking about how that event started, how that event ended on the program. We're approaching award season. A lot of discussions to be had at the year-end awards, and a lot of that discussion comes from UFC 256. So if you checked out the event, you were happy about it. If you decided to pass on it, shame on you.

Don't pass on these events. It was awesome. Go back and watch it. you will not be sorry. But if you missed it, we also dove deep into the main event from multiple journalistic opinions. Charles Olivares, big win over Tony Ferguson, Kevin Holland's incredible capper to his 5-0-2020 on between the lengths with Jedmishu, myself and Sean Al-Shadi. So head on back into the archives after you watch this.

You can check that out. But of course, the UFC ends their 2020 campaign this Saturday with UFC Vegas 17, the main event. fascinating one, Stephen Wonderboy Thompson taking on the surging Jeff Neal, of course. The main event was originally supposed to be Leon Edwards against Hamzat Shemayev. We all know what happened there. Looks like potentially we could see that.

Fight happened on January 20th. Nothing's been made official, but it seems that that's the direction they're heading. But Wonderboy versus Jeff Neal is a fun fight. No doubt about that. We got Jose Alta versus Marlon Vera in the co-main event. Michelle Paheda versus Chaos Williams. Are you kidding me?

That fight is going to be insane. We got Anthony Pettis versus Alex Marano, Marl Marais versus Rob Font, and so much more. This is going to be a fun one to cap off 2020, that's for sure. But let us run down the lineup, and we'll get to our first guest. Rapping us up, and if you miss it on Tuesday night when we released it, you can check it out on this show. My chat with Brandon Moreno following his incredible flyweight championship draw with Davis and Figato.

What a fight that was. It's so damn good. And Moreno has been one of my absolute favorite fighters to interview in 2020. You'll hear that conversation in its entirety at the tail end of the program. Chaos Williams, the aforementioned Chaos Williams returns to the program. And man, is he focused on this fight with Michelle Paheda on Saturday night at the apex? We'll check in with the Ox Fighter, one of the breakout fighters of the year a little bit later on. Chase Hooper will join us once again coming off his comfort behind.

third round heel hook submission win over Peter Barrett to kick off UFC 256. And yes, he has gone back and watched the fight with commentary. We'll discuss that and much more with the 21-year-old Chase Hooper. After Wonderboy and Jeff Neal do the damn thing this Saturday, the next made event for the UFC will take place on January 16th as Max Holloway will fight Calvin Cater in a massive featherweight. matchup, we will speak with one Calvin Cater in around 20 or so minutes, but first we say hello to one of the big stars of UFC 256, and man, this guy delivered an outstanding finish

of Daniel Paneda in the second round, 14 months away. His name, Cubs Swanson, and I just want to throw this out there, Zoom. You guys know Zoom. It is a wonderful tool. It's been an exceptional help for businesses, for families around the world, especially during these. trying times during this pandemic. But sometimes when you need Zoom to record interviews, it sucks. It kind of sucks from time to time. It is inconsistent.

You never know what it's going to look like after you press stop after a recording. You just don't know how it's going to look. But it recorded this way, and it could be worse. You get to see Cub Swans in the entire time. At least you don't get to see this mug the entire time. But enjoy my chat with the one, the only Cub Swans.

kicking us off this week on what the heck. All right, let's say hello to one of the big winners from this past Saturday's UFC 256 event. He knocks out Daniel Paneda in the second round, first fighting over 14 months. And in a year like this, we needed a good, feel, good story. And that's exactly what we got on Saturday night. Cubs Swanson joins the program. How are you, man?

I'm doing great. Thanks. That was some fight. I mean, that first round was absolutely insane. There was a little bit of everything. Like kicks. Fight was on the mat. on the feet, submission attempts, knockdowns,

a little bit of everything, Cub. Heck of a first five minutes of action after 14 months away, was it not? Yeah. You know, I was definitely trying not to get kicked in the leg so much, but yeah, that was a factor. And, you know, it made it an interesting fight. How were, how was the leg feeling

heading into the second round? Because clearly the momentum had shifted in your favor at the end of the round. Is it, it's kind of that mind over matter type of deal. what's your mind telling you as you're getting ready to head to the stool in between those two rounds? I knew it basically was telling me like, look, you're fine right now, but let's not keep pushing it.

Let's not take too many more of those. Let's get to work. That's pretty much what my mind was telling me in between rounds. You're like, let's get this thing done before the adrenaline starts to wear off, right? Exactly, exactly. Well, just because I knew my knee was pretty solid. everything I had done. I, I, I, I, I, I did a great job rehabbing it, all the people I had around me helping me. Um, everyone's like, just trust it, just trust it. And yeah, I, I was trusting

it, but maybe a little too much. Did it take a little bit of time, like, to, to kind of deal with that? I mean, you've been in the fight game for a while, but when you have an injury like that and the rehab and all those things, it's, it's only natural to kind of think about it a little more than, then maybe some people would and vice versa. But like, what was that like for you? Was it easy to trust it or was it something you had to work on? No, it was pretty easy for me to trust it. I think what kept me in check was knowing that whatever I did to it,

whatever envelope I pushed, you know, I was going to have to do that much more rehab. So every training session that I pushed it really hard, I'd have to pull back on the other side and go, okay, now I got to ice it twice as. much. I got arrested. I got to take this day off. So that that was more of the headache during the whole camp. Second round in this fight, man, big shots early. You had him in big, big trouble. He had that deep single on you, but you were able to stay on your feet before you landed the right

hand that ultimately ended the fight. When you got through that single and stayed on your feet, did you know deep down like the end was near? Because it seemed to me, watching him from home, his confidence was kind of in a rough place after that. Did you sort of feel that as well? I kind of knew when I was sitting in between the first and second round on the stool, my cornerman was trying to give me advice and all that, but I really was just thinking about, I know this is about to be over. I was telling myself, don't take any more leg kicks. It's a little unnecessary.

But I just knew that he couldn't recover. I saw the way he was wobbling after I dropped him in the first. and I landed some nice elbows at the end of the round. But yeah, I knew that he couldn't recover. I knew he was going to come back, and it would only take another shot to really get him, you know, wobbling around. So I was confident that the fight was going to be over in the second round.

First finish since July of 2013, six and a half years, and it was one of the best finishes of your entire career. Getting a win after going through that injury would have been great on its own, I'm sure, but going out there and doing that and putting him away the way that you did, that must have felt like a million bucks. Well, it did just with everything that was going on, you know, just, you know, I've talked about it. The four-fight losing street just was different for my career,

and it felt like it was hard to shake. And it got to a point, like even in the Kron fight, where I've had so much time in between fights, you know, and you think about the last time you were in there, you have little memories. Oh, yeah, this is what it felt like. And all those memories were attached to losses. You know, so it was difficult, you know?

So trying to tell yourself, don't have those thoughts. It is not easy. You know, it's just, it's something that comes with it. So like I said, with everything that was going on, with 2020 being so crazy with the injury, with trying to come back and have a great performance and to actually go out there and do it was amazing. I've talked to so many fighters over the years,

and I feel not all of them have felt this way, but I feel like a vast majority of them, at some point in their career, they have to find the love for the sport again. Like it just becomes taxing at times, especially doing what you guys do in training every day and getting in fights. Sometimes you win and sometimes you lose.

You went through a rough stretch. Was there a time for you where you had to dig down and find that love for the sport again? Or did you always love it and never sort of veered away from you? Yeah, I mean, I've always loved it. But I think it's your motivation for me that that's been the hardest thing was, you know, when I was when I was super young and everybody that, you know, has been a fan of mine since like even the WC days,

I was just tough as nails, fearless. And that's what made. made me tick, you know, and I'm not those things anymore. You know, I'm, I'm fearless, but I plan ahead. I'm strategic. I'm smarter, you know, that I'm just, I'm just a different person than I was then. So I think that, you know, digging down and finding out, you know, where your, where your head's at when the fight is about to come, that, you know, I used to go to a dark place and I

I don't, that's not really a place I want to go anymore. You know, I got, I got kids, I enjoy my life. I, I, I have a good time and I don't feel like I needed to go there anymore. And this time was the first time I kind of accepted that and just, it's like, hey, you know, time to evolve. And I feel like I've been struggling with that over the last, you know, four or five years, um, where sometimes you show up, sometimes you don't. You're like, what's my deal? And I feel like this one just, it clicked.

And it was like, I felt like I graduated in a sense to a new level. Yeah, you accepted Cub 2.0 is here. Like you're, now you're just a different, you know, different mindset, different guy, different motivations. You weren't in the dark place heading into the fight, but like what kind of place were you in? Like, what was that?

What were some of the things you were thinking about? Like, what were some of the different things that were going on in your mind? I was relaxed. You know, before I would take me, I would listen to music. I would start to like. let this dog out of me, you know, and transform into like, this dark part of me that was vicious.

And I would come out and be pumped. But part of what the downside of that is sometimes you could be too pumped and you're tight and you're not as fluid as you want to be. And I knew that for this fight, I needed to be fluid. I needed to go out there and be fast and be snappy. And so I thought that going to that place is just, going to make me stiff and make me tight and that wasn't going to be a good thing for me. And so I think when I just, I thought about the way I go when I go spar these pro

boxers all the time and my, you know, I'm like, man, these dudes hit hard. I need to be on point. And usually what I do is I'm just relaxed. I don't do a lot of warming up. I think about everything I'm going to be doing. And I just kind of took that approach. And I just felt, it felt right. Did not having a crowd help that? Did it help enhance it? Because normally when you come out and you see all those people, you're just like,

it's kind of hard not to get fired up and allow yourself to get in that place. Did not having a crowd sort of help enhance that in your mind a little bit? I think so. Yeah, and that was one of the things I was excited about. I was like, you know, it's just one less thing that you got to deal with. And that was part of the reason I think I had to learn how to pump myself up too was to even, you know, I'm pretty shy,

quiet person in general. So for me to have to go out and perform in front of 20,000 people, sometimes you do got to pump yourself up and kind of mentally prepare for that. And, you know, we'll see what happens when we get back to crowds and how I'll make those adjustments. I think I'll do fine. But just for, you know, this time, having no crowd and just being able to just focus on just that one task, it felt nice.

Yeah, there's a lot of fighters that they actually prefer it. They prefer not fighting with the crowd because it takes some pressure off. It's almost like a high-level sparring match. Seems to be a cliche thing they say. And you can hear not just your corner. You can hear your opponent's corner. It's like it's still, it's a little more relaxed, but it's like a little more primal too in a way. Like what did you think of the whole experience?

Well, I also think that because I was thinking about it when we first had the no crowd, fights started getting a little bit more brutal, you know? I was like, this is interesting, you know, that we're having, you know, tougher fights. And it dawned on me finally. We always assume that the crowd is affecting the winner. But I think more so the crowd influences the loser. So when you're losing a fight and you're hearing booze and you're hearing, oh, when you're getting hit, I think it's making fighters give in sooner.

And I think since we've had no crowd, you're getting fighters not realizing they're losing as bad and they're fighting harder and they're fighting longer. That's my theory. That's a really good way to look at it. What about the, do you notice a difference between like the big cage and the small cage because that's been like a big debate here in 2020 is, are the fights better in the big cage?

Dana White said, oh, there's no difference in the numbers. but it feels like with the fans and the media members are like the small cage rules because it seems like you can't help but have action. You know what I mean? Yeah. Well, I mean, it's old school WEC day side. So yeah, it definitely forces more action. And then I was pretty happy because I have the same size at my UFC gym and Costa Mesa.

And that's where I did all my training. So up until the last two weeks when things started to get shut down again, I was able to use that cage and have the exact same, you know, replica. So I was happy with it. I thought he was going to try to take me down a little bit more. And so we were worried about the size being a factor, but it ended up being just fine. The post-fight interview is amazing because as a dad myself,

like I totally understood where you're coming from. Like our kids can sometimes put us on this pedestal. And it almost feels at times impossible. to live up to that and it gets with your mind a little bit like you're like for you like you're their superhero like you had a and you had a superhero like performance like it's amazing what the mind can do when things get tough you can think about them and it gives you like that extra bit of umph you need to to get through those hard times it seemed like it seems like in that moment you knew you made them proud and that's a pretty powerful thing is it not yeah it is i mean i'm one of those

people that, you know, when I've coached fighters, I've been very stern and very direct and tell them, you know, sometimes you just got to suck it up and, and that's what we do. So when it's my turn and I'm feeling that pressure and, and I'm feeling all those, those things that, you know, maybe make you feel weaker, I just remind myself like, hey, man, you, you, you you preach it you know you you got to you got to be you got to be the man you got to you got to do your thing so um that's kind of a the mindset I had and and knowing that my kids are pretty young now but they're going to look back on these days and they're going to be like you know this is how you felt at that that point and you still did it um that you know that's inspiring and and that's kind

of like how I was thinking about it also I feel like this day and age you know we got a lot of people that want to put on shows and, you know, act a certain way. I feel like at this point of my career, I'm more inspirational to a lot of these up-and-coming fighters, and I want them to know, like, that everyone has these feelings, you know, it's normal, and it's part of it and it's good. It makes you stronger. It makes you learn how to deal with these kinds of things. So I don't want to put on this fake front like it, like we're indestructible, and like we don't have feelings

and we don't, you know, get scared. And I just, I wanted to make that known that we all deal with it. That's awesome, man. How old are your kids, if you don't mind me asking? I have a three-year-old and two-year-olds. Oh, there you go. Oh, boy. So you're running around like a madman.

Three kids in diapers, yeah, it's crazy. So, like, even now I got, you know, I got this broken hand. I'm still changing diapers. My wife is helping out a lot. But yeah, you know, still got to get them out of their crib and change diapers and do all those things. Like, so. Yeah, you can't, I mean, you can go between fights. You can't go between like rounds of being a dad.

It just doesn't stop. Yeah, yeah. And it shouldn't. Like, I got no excuse. You know, I got, you know, my hands hurt, but, you know, they still need their diaper change and they still need to be fed and put to bed and all that stuff. There are many people out there in MMA fanland Cub who thought you got the big fat hose job when it came to the bonuses. Like the fight of the night was a no-brainer because the main event ruled.

And then we knew Kevin Hallam was going to get one because that knockout of Jacqueray was crazy. But there's a lot of folks who felt you should have got that fourth bonus over Raphael Fizzis because it seemed like yours was more emphatic and without any controversy whatsoever. What say you, did you feel like you got shortchanged a little bit in the bonus department? I feel like if I said, yeah, I'm being ungrateful because, I mean, I've had so many. And it's funny, like, some of my biggest knockouts, I didn't get bonuses. The George Rube fight, I didn't get it, and I made Sports Center, this one. But, I mean, it's okay.

As long as I'm always in contention, then I'm doing my job. You know, it's a stat that people would never say, but I'm pretty proud of it. of is even all my losses were a bonus involved. So I think aside for maybe one or two, you know, so I've won a lot of bonuses. I've helped other people get bonuses. But the fact that the matter is I'm in an, it's an exciting fight and the people want to watch it. Does it mean more to you that you entertain so many people that people are still talking about the finish over getting the bonus itself?

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, those are the kinds of things that last forever, you know, is, you know, legacy. I'm known to be an exciting fighter and putting it all out there. So, I mean, for my family, I always want more money because it helps around here. Yeah. But, yeah, at this point in my career, everything I make, I'm, you know, making sure that it set me and my family up. forever. Maybe they're planning on what they did with Figuero

after his previous fight. Maybe they'll just give you a big bag of cash to make up for it. I mean, that would be nice. I definitely wouldn't complain about that. But you know what? I said this, you know,

in a tweet, it's like, I got to be grateful. Man, when I injured my knee in that grappling tournament, there was a special event insurance for that event. And they were already trying, trying to get me an MRI and then the UFC just literally took over the whole thing.

They booked me another MRI somewhere else, drove me there, got me crutches, set up an appointment for me to go with the top knee surgeon, made sure that I had physical therapy taking care for the entire year. So they literally paid for everything and took care of everything. So I'm super grateful for that. And so, yeah, if, you. I couldn't complain about not getting a bonus. That's a fair trade-off then. I would agree with that. Besides the hand, any other injuries coming out of the fight?

No, my knees good. I got it checked out today, got it flushed out. It's just swollen. Like I said, when, you know, any kind of workout I would do and have to ice it and get it to calm back down, it's like that, but times 20. just a little swollen in the in the joint. I'm trying to get it out.

So I'm probably going to have to start riding the bike today. There you go. Next move I'm guessing is enjoy the holidays with the family, enjoy the wind because, you know, after taking a year, I guess like after taking a year off, now you get to deal with healing up the hand. Do you want to try to get back in as soon as you can in 2021?

Or are you just in no rush at this point? Like whenever the time comes, the time comes. No, I'd like to get right back in. You know, I took a year off and it's not like I felt a difference this time. I'm noticing it little by little. Like I'm just as fast. I'm just as sharp.

It's just that I need longer rest days, you know. Majority of the camp on the weekends, I was having to take Saturday and Sunday off instead of just one day. And that's fine. just listening to my body and knowing how to get the best out of myself without pushing it too hard. And so I know that I'm not trying to fight past 40. And so I'd like to get as many in as I can and, you know, keep the train moving. Is this as free as you felt as a fighter in a long time?

Yeah, yeah, pretty much. I'd say that was safe, safe to say. and obviously, you know, I had to, I thought I was going to have to worry about his takedowns a little bit more and less about the leg kicks, but it was a lot about the leg kicks and less about takedowns. So, you know, when you have to think about something like that, you know, I usually have to throw, you know, no more than three strikes at the time and then move, make sure I'm moving. That way I'm not an easy target. But, yeah, overall, it was a pretty freeing experience. Did you watch a main event on Saturday? No, I haven't watched it yet.

Oh, man, you're in for a treat. Yeah. It's so good. Yeah. So, I mean, it's crazy, too. Brandon Moreno is such like a nice guy, and you just wouldn't expect him to be in wars like that. Figurato seems like a monster.

Like, he seems like he wants to be in wars like that all the time. But, yeah, I definitely want to see the fight still. I talked to Moreno yesterday and same attitude, smiling, laughing, time of his life. Just, it's so funny. And then he goes in there and has a war with a guy like Figuero who takes those massive shots from such a powerful guy and still smiling, still loving life. It's amazing. That's awesome. That's awesome.

What else is awesome, Cub was your performance on Saturday? It was amazing to see you get back in there after the recovery and just have the performance like that. I'm glad to see you in just a great place mentally and physically right now and really excited to see what you got to bring to the table in 2021, man. Happy holidays to you and the family, and I appreciate the time. Well, I appreciate it. Thank you. Hopefully we'll find something out soon, hopefully early next year. But either way, I appreciate all the support. Awesome, man. Thank you. Have a good day, man. All right, you too. Great stuff from Cub Swanson. That was actually the first time I've had the chance to speak with that,

man in my career and really enjoyed that one. Congratulations to him on a great victory this past Saturday night. We move ahead to our next guest, Huge 2020. It has been for the Boston Finisher. Knockout wins over Jeremy Stevens, that elbow. People forget about that when talking about the knockout of the year. That was a ferocious knockout at UFC 249. And then he had the five-round decision win over Dan Ege in the main event on Fight Island in July. So a big year for Calvin Cater could be a massive 2021 for him because he's going to fight Max Holloway. In the main event, January 16th, let us welcome back to the show, Calvin Cater. All right, so once this Saturday's UFC Vegas 17 event comes to an end, there'll be a few week, a little bit of a breather.

But then 2021 is going to kick off with a massive main event at 145 pounds as the former champion Max Holloway will take on this man. January 16th, the Boston finisher himself, Calvin Cater. How are you, man? Doing good, Mike. Thanks for having me on, as always. It's good to see you, man. You are in Las Vegas right now because Rob Font is returning to the Octagon for the first time in over a year. He's fighting Marlon Marius on Saturday. And both of you guys had these big fights coming up against former champions. He's made the walk with you a couple of times this year, Calvin. And he's seen sort of the great things that have happened for you. How excited are you to sort of return the favor and do you? the same for him this time around. Oh, yeah, it's great. I mean, I don't know who's doing the favor for who.

I mean, you know, he's, it's incredible, man. The kid finds a way to improve after an injury, you know, all year long. I had never seen him look better. And I'm excited. He's, he's ready. He's due. He's overdue. And it's a good opportunity for him to come out and just show, you know, why he belongs

at the top of the heap in his division. I was talking to Tyson about this last week, you know, just seeing him because he's been here before. He's had to overcome injuries and deal with these long layoffs. But I feel like with this particular layoff, I feel like people have been more excited and been asking more than ever before, like not just in New England. This is like a global thing. They all want to see, they're all matchmaking for Rob.

When's Rob coming back? People are starting to see this man's potential after all this time. And just to kind of see him work hard to get back here. And, you know, it's all about to come together in this huge fight for him. what has it been like just watching him get from the Simone fight to where we are right now it's it's great man the the comeback's greater than the setback and he's proven that time and time again like you said this isn't the first time that he's dealt with setbacks and you know how he responds like a champion you know it comes out and you're going to see the best rock funk come saturday night

and guarantee you that so that is this weekend we are looking forward to that and then you get back at it on the next card january 16 against max hallway this is the fight you wanted it's the fight everybody wanted it, if we're being honest. And we're like exactly a month away from this fight going down. And it was funny because I was talking to Tyson last week. And I asked him how you reacted to the fight. And he said, you were more excited that the fight might be in Vegas than you weren't about the fact you were fighting Max Holloway. Is that true? Yeah, man. I can't seem to land me a Vegas card, even when it's 50-50 between Fight Island and Apex. You know, I can't even get a Vegas card then. I don't know what I got to do.

when I got Rob one is like seventh time fighting in Vegas. The kid's spoiled. I'm a little upset with it, but I'm happy to be here for him. And, you know, it's just a difference between fighting at like 8 a.m. or 8 p.m. So have, like, has there been a decision made yet, or is it still kind of up in the air at this point? Honestly, I believe it's pretty much finalized, except the announcement. But if they were to come back to Vegas, I wouldn't be too upset either. That's so funny because, like, look, you're, you're, you're, you're, like, Brady, like, pre-buccaneers Brady, you're Belichick.

Like, whoever it is on the other side of that octagon is on the other side of the octagon. Exactly. But, man, seeing Max Holloway, knowing that you're fighting him, the number one ranked guy, former champion, a lot, a guy a lot of people think is the best 45 of all time. Nothing? No reaction? I mean, it's a good opportunity to just show why I think, why I think I'm that guy. You know, these guys are all tough at him Max, he's still the champion. And I think maybe he's even still focused on the champ.

But to overlook me would be a mistake. We hadn't heard from Max in a while since the loss to Volcanovsky at UFC 251. It was a fight that a lot of people thought Max won and kind of got the hose job on from the judges. But I'm not sure if we talked about this before and if we did my apologies. But did you watch that fight? Did you score that one for Max? Did you score for Volcanowski? I believe I might have been weight cutting for my fight or something along those lines.

We were out there. We watched it. I'd have to really rewatch it again, but from my first look, going back to then, I thought it was pretty close. You know, credit to the champ,

though, in that fifth round, even if it was two to two to dig deep and do what he had to do to at least sway it in his favor. You know, the fifth round, he acted like a champion, and he overcame the adversity that Max Holloway brought.

And so, credit to him, but it was a very close fight. The only reason why I give it to Alex, you know, overall, is just because he beat him so handily in the first and if this one was close so be it you know but um either way like i said me and that fights you know here and gone that'd be like me focusing on on uh on a previous fight that i

had when i'm fighting max holloway it just doesn't make sense you know no one to look past in me either right now it's all max holloway and i'm excited about the matchup yeah i think the reason i asked is because i maxed it around a 30 or so minute interview with the spn yesterday and he mentioned the fight with you not a lot about it. I thought he would talk about it more, but it was mostly about how that fight was scored and his reaction to it at all. And in a way, he feels like he's the uncrowned champion. So I was curious if there's a part of you that kind of feels like in a nonchalant way that it's almost just feels like a title fight in a way, fighting Holloway. I mean, anytime you fight a guy like Max Holloway, you know, with the athletes he has,

it is a championship caliber fight. You know, he just might not have the belt right now, but it's that type of fight 100%. It's a five-round, made event fight. Only thing missing is the belt. You've, I mean, you've lost a couple of decisions in the past. Have you had any, like, near-robbery-type decision losses in your career? I can't think of anything off the top of my head, but if you had one where you just got the big, fat screw job? Not crazy. No, I've been pretty fortunate in that, but you know how that goes, man. Most of my fights, ideally, I always go for the finish just because it sucks leaving it to the judges as it is. But I've had close fights that have gone my way and you know I've had I've had wins that thankfully I got in and out of because I felt like shit for the fight one way or another but I got a finish and I was like you know happy to get out of there with a quick finish knowing it would have been a long night otherwise because not every night you go in there you know everyone's entitled to a bad day sometimes I'm happy to get a win off a bad day and and but coming into this one no just like I said man all max all the way and and I don't plan on leaving it close

One thing that really stands out about this fight is one thing that served Max very well throughout his career, especially in the UFC, is his size at 45. Like, he's always been the taller fighter. He seems to have the reach advantage in pretty much every single fight he has at 45. You guys are right around the same height. You might even be a little bit taller, but I know you have the reach advantage in this fight. How much of an impact do you think this has? Good questions, man. Like you said, it's different when you're fighting a guy that has similar reach and not only the reach, but can fight.

that style of fighting along or combat that. And, you know, I think we both present problems that maybe neither of us had faced before. And, and we'll find out what's up come January 16th, man. It's coming close, like you said. We're about a month out now. And all it is here is just, you know, finishing Camp Strong, Donned the eyes across the season. I've been ready to go all year long. So January 16th can't come soon enough. So you're in Vegas now. Are you, you get a corner rob and then go back home and then come back? Or are you here the rest of that? time now. No, that would be nice. I don't think I could stay in Vegas that long, without getting into too much trouble. I like to stay here, maybe max a week,

but that's about it. So getting a little bit out here, you know, get the PT. It's always great to come out here and break up camp, especially right around this time, go home with a couple weeks left, finish strong, and then it's just, it's just following through what we've been training all along and going on and getting the job done. But yeah, one month, and we're We're right on schedule. People try to like generalize fights. I think generalized is probably like the right word to use here. They take like singular words and they do this versus this.

So when people look at this fight on paper, it's like it's Max's volume versus Calvin's power. Do you look at it in the same way? I feel like your volume is a little underrated here. Yeah, I usually try to dictate when you say who's going to win a fight. Generally the way I would say it is, you know, it would be like, if one guy can get off his game plan and the other guy can get off his. And most people, like, if they're a ground-style fight, like, let's just say, like an Ortega versus zombie prior to that fight actually going down where Ortega pieced him up on the feet, you would think, like, oh, if Ortega can get it to the ground, he wins, you know, or zombie can keep it on the feet. You know, that's how they generalize, like you're saying.

But as you see, sometimes the fights don't play out how they generalize and Ortega pieced them up on the feet, didn't even touch the ground. So I try not to get too, you know, set on one way or another of getting the job done. I see myself getting my hand raised and then capitalizing on whatever he presents. The way you handle your business, Calvin, and we've talked about this many times in the past, it's the Patriots mindset, the New England Patriots mindset. Whatever the NFL puts on the schedule, that's the game you play. You handle your fighting career the same way. Whoever the UFC puts in front of me, that's how I'm going to punch in the face.

I don't care who it is. And I think that's very commendable, Calvin. And I think that's one of the things people like about you. But if you go up- Super Bowl, man, every match is the Super Bowl. Everyone's the biggest one. You know, the next one's the best one. But if you go out there on January 16th,

and you beat Max Holloway, and you beat him without question, there's no robbery, no nothing. Clear-cut decision, or you go out there and you do what nobody has done since early 2012, and you put away Max Blessed Holloway, your next fight has to be for the bell, right? Like, there is no other way around it.

The next, the time for the next man up is over. It's title time, right? Yeah, definitely. And that's what I had said previous to getting the matchup of Max. I think anybody that wants to fight for the belt should have to go through Max, especially that one being so close. To bypass Max on your way to the belt just doesn't make sense to me. You want to be the champ, you've got to take off Max Holloway on the way,

and I have that opportunity in front of me. So, yeah, like you said, I think after Max, that would be the goal. And whoever wanted that opportunity had it when they could have fought Max. But I don't see too many people jumping at the bit to do it. put other than myself. Is it, I mean, obviously, title implications are huge here, but just having a win over Max Holloway

and just having that on your resume. Is that just massive for you? Yeah, it's like you said, it's the title fight without the belt. You know, his resume and accolades speak for itself. You know, he's arguably one of the goats in the division. And what an opportunity to go out there

and just show why. I feel like I belong amongst the division's best. I feel like, this question fails me every time, but I'm just going to go ahead and fire it out and see what happens. How do you get this thing done? January 16th? I know you're going to say I'm going to go to my hand raised,

but maybe get a little spunking you after a long day. I just got to, yeah, I just got to go out, man, and beat Calvin Cater better than he can be Max Holloway. You know, and that'll be enough.

Just go out, do what I do and perform how I know I can. If I could do that, the rest will take care of itself. There is one thing I have to ask you about Calvin, and I, God, I hate myself for having to do this,

but the last time we spoke, it was right after the Ortega Korean zombie fight. And we were trying to rush through this post-fight show so that we could watch the boxing. You want to watch the little bit of anko fight, okay? Since then, boxing has taken a wild turn, Calvin. We saw Tyson v. Jones. We saw Jake Paul knockout Nate Robinson. Now we're seeing Jake Paul and Connor. Now we're seeing Jake Paul throwing water balloons at Dylan Danis and running away.

your thoughts yeah and now logan paul's got to box floyd bayweather like as a boxing enthusiast calvin what do you think of all this madness i i mean it's got a lot of people's attention but um they're not really finding out who's the best fighter out of it all it's just kind of a you know entertainment so let them have their fun um that that knockout i'll tell you on a on a serious note that teofimo uh lopez fight man props to him i think loma just didn't, you know, step on the gas a little too soon. He stepped on a little too late. And, uh, but what a hell of the fight that was?

That kid's tough as nails. Man, I'm excited to see, um, those two, you know, compete next. But as far as the rest of them, I mean, if I got nothing going on, maybe. Did you watch Tyson Jones? I did. That was, that was interesting, man. At the, at the age that they're at, you know, they put it on the line. Uh, Roy was moving, you know, wasn't really, you know, standing in and as you'd expect

him to do. but I like Tyson's tenacity kind of going after it and really trying to put him to the canvas. He was definitely looking for the finish, so I'll give him that. Tyson just looks so good at 51, 51, 54 years old. I mean, good God, like just to see him, you know, the way he looked maybe like two years ago

to the way he looked in that ring. I mean, just mind-boggling. It's just unbelievable. And I think a lot of people kind of look past that, kind of with that circus mentality, like, oh, boy, here we go. But just to see what Mike Tyson has done for himself as an individual. that that's amazing. Yeah, I'm happy to see him come back and get a nice, if that is that one and done or whatever the case.

I mean, I heard he made at least a 10 million on that or something. Good for him, man. He deserves it. You know, he's had a lot of triumphs and, you know, he's had to work back from a lot of tough decisions he made as well. So happy that he's got this new mindset where he seems like he's in a good place now. He's got good people around him and to see him get a payday. in the mindset he's at now. Hopefully, you know, he makes the right investments

and he's just well off because the guy deserves it, man. He's done so much for, you know, the sport and to see him, you know, retire with some money would be a good, would be good to see. I think that's kind of the goal for every fighter, at least from where I said, I want everybody to retire very comfortably and have a bunch of money in a nest egg. You know, do the damn thing. You know, make enough where you can settle

but buy yourself some season tickets to the paths, Calvin. Just why not? You know what I mean? I mean, I'm going to have to buy him because I ain't get no cops these days. But we're working on it. Maybe after we get that Max Holloway fight and that belt put around our waist, you know, maybe they'll reserve a seat over us at Gillette. Bob Crafts, come on.

Get this man's phone. No, I'm going to keep plugging out every interview until I get some. Really fun fight coming up between Cater and Holloway. Really interesting matchup. Cater is, listen, I'm from the Boston area. I'm from New England. I'm a huge Patriots fan. I've been a Patriots fan since I was a young kid.

So I've been through the good and the bad. The one in 15 seasons, still watch, still cheered. But Calvin Cater just has that Bill Belichekian mentality. All those guys do. Tyson, Chartier, his manager and coach, who was on the show last week. Rob Fon, who's fighting Marl Marl Marius this week. They all have that same mentality. It's different.

It is refreshing at the same time. But if Calvin Cater beats Max Holloway, It's time to start screaming from the rooftops. Title shot, title shot, title shot. And I think he knows that. I think they're going to get it. And especially if he beats Max Holloway, his next fight will have to be for the belt, no matter what's going on in this division. But that fight's so good.

It's like one of those fights. I'm just like, I just, I'm very excited to see how it's going to play out. It's like the late great gorilla monsoon from old school WWF used to say. It's one of those like irresistible force meets the immovable object type of fights. should be really good, very fascinating coming up on January the 16th. Let us stick with the featherweight division and say hello to the dream. 21-year-old Chase Hooper coming off his win this past Saturday night at UFC 256. All right, back of the show is Chase Hooper who kicked off a wild UFC 256 card

with the come from behind submission win over Peter Barrett. With the way this whole night played out, this was the perfect start to it, if we're being honest. Chase, good to see you, man. How are you? Uh, great. Um, just kind of, you know, enjoying the win. And, uh, yeah, that card was fantastic. Uh, that's kind of the only problem for me is, you know, all the bonuses go, uh, go higher up. But, you know, I'm happy with the win and I'm happy to get my full paycheck this time. Absolutely. It was a, it was a pretty crazy fight. I saw all sorts. It was like a little bit of everything in your fight from stand up to the ground to you actually like, him actually like headbutting your punches in the third round before the submission. Like, it was just crazy. It was pretty clear what the strategies were heading in. And Peter, through the first couple rounds, who's fighting very smart, he was staying on the outside,

he was trying to keep this thing on the feet as much as he could. He was scoring with the leg kicks a little bit early on. You were starting to figure that out as the fight progressed. But I doubt the game plan from Pete surprised you, but was there anything in regards to his skill set, how he performed that did surprise you? I would say the thing that surprised me most, actually, was watching his previous fights. he was more like wrestling heavy. So it was interesting just to go in there.

And I get it makes sense in retrospect with kind of, you know, how my fights have gone and, you know, what his way to win would be. But I was just surprised he wasn't doing more clinching because a lot of his previous fights, I noticed he had more like kind of that Oosman style. Like he has no problem holding the guy up against the cage and trying to beat him up from there. but yeah it was kind of interesting just having someone that is a pretty decent wrestler like that just wanting to disengage from the grappling the whole time but it made sense the leg kicks especially in the second round those seem to have the most effect like even the commentators and we'll talk a little bit more about that in a moment but DC and Rogan specifically thought Pete was one good leg kick away from ending the fight like was it at that point I mean it was getting it seemed like

it was getting a little sketchy in there but were they starting to take as much of a toll on you as maybe they portrayed it? It was more like one of those things where I'm like, fuck, I should have checked that way earlier. I should have been on top of it because we knew going in there that he was going to do a lot of leg kicks. But I was real focused on his like his overhand right or his overhand left because he liked to throw that a lot.

And then I just kind of wasn't just focused on the leg kicks. But I'd actually been working like a decent bit of like. switch stance stuff. So I was just kind of, you know, resting the leg up a little bit. It wasn't, I don't think it was that close to being over with, but it was definitely, it didn't feel good. I can tell you that. Yeah.

I could have kept going for sure. Yeah, third round, Peter looks to be five minutes away from his first UFC win, and then you drop for an M&R role, and he was able to get back to his feet the first time you did it earlier in the fight. This one, he was not so lucky. and it was like, it was like video game power levels when it came to confidence. Like yours were rising as the seconds went on. His was drastically falling and he was doing like everything he could to not get too reckless in that position.

And you were staying super patient. Eventually the heel hook comes and you force the tap. Man, that had to have been one hell of a feeling was not like, I think it was kind of portrayed. And even on Saturday that you were down like, it was like, it was like two 10, eight rounds and you just came out of nowhere and won it. and won it. Like, I thought, personally, you lost the first two rounds, but I didn't think it was like, you didn't get the doors blown off you, you know what I mean? Yeah, like, you can see by my face, like, I don't have a mark on me type of thing.

So it's like, it wasn't like a crazy, like, rocky, like, comeback like that, but it was definitely, um, I feel like he, I let him control the distance too much, like he had the cage control. And then, uh, also the leg kicks, obviously, because there wasn't a whole lot from either of us. significantly back and forth, scoring-wise. So I feel like those leg kicks definitely really added up for him in that second round. But, yeah, again, I feel like it wasn't a crazy, like, comeback, but it was definitely, I do think that positionally, because of where he was at in the leg kicks, that I was losing those two rounds.

But it was closer than people who like to make it out to be. but yeah it was great to you know laying that iminari which i've been practicing for you know months now and kind of get to that position and be like okay i still have like three minutes left i can take my time i can just kind of hang out here and uh you know i was able to get to that uh like the honey hole position that they call it where essentially both of my legs are um pretty much safe like almost completely and then I have like real good control over his leg that I was in him or able to heel hook. You're a very nice guy, Chase.

You're friendly. You are a fighter. Peter was absolutely crushed by that loss and losing sucks no matter what. But there is a pretty good chance, especially where we're at now in the UFC, that getting another fight for him in the Octagon, especially right now, it's pretty unlikely with the UFC making some cuts. He's 0 and 2 now. I have no insight on that, obviously.

but I think Pete was probably going in that fight thinking it was a do-or-die fight for him. As excited you as you were to come back and get that win, was there a part of you that just felt so terrible for him in that situation? I mean, definitely, that's kind of the thing, though, is like I wouldn't have been too far off if I'd have lost too. I don't think they maybe would have given me another one,

but I don't think it would have been like a, it definitely would have been a sink or swim type of thing. So we were both kind of in that same position, I feel. But again, I'm more pessimistic anyway, so I want to view it more as the negative scenario than the positive. But yeah, it's rough, definitely. But it's just such a brutal sport, and you have to fight for your spot. And that's just kind of the way it is.

But, you know, super nice guy. And, yeah, I wish him all the best. what did you think of the commentary overall because i'm sure you went back and watched it you may have seen some things on social media about some of the things that were said because i had to go back and like watch it a second time because i i think i even tweeted this out on saturday it sounded to me like joe rogan had you released in the second round like off to the regional scene to get more work but as you're watching it and seeing it all play out like what did you think of the commentary overall yeah it's uh it's brutal to you know hear these people that you kind of idolize

a little bit just kind of shitting all over here, you know? It's kind of, I don't know, it's hard to deal with. But some points were valid. I just feel like it was a little more accentuated than it needed to be. Like, you know, obviously I know I need to work on my striking. Like I'm getting that situated. I'm going to go to Thailand or something and get the, you know, get the work in that I need. But I think it's really just because of this narrative that I have. have like they're like oh his striking so bad but it you know I was holding my own to an extent um like I never felt out of there I never you know I didn't get rocked I didn't get any like significant shots landed on you know anything besides my leg so I feel like I'm definitely

making the improvements and I feel like that was kind of glossed over but that's kind of not here nor there but yeah I definitely I heard they're pretty brutal the whole night kind of overall, but it's just a little harder when it's, you know, about you specifically. Yeah, I think you're taking in stride. I mean, it is what it is at the end of the day. And I kind of compare you to Ryan Hall early on in his UFC run because, I mean, and it just turns out you got to work with him for this camp and you've been working with him a little bit. It certainly can't go wrong with that. He's sort of this like enigmatic figure here at MMA fighting. Like we think Ryan Hall, like we hear Ryan Hall's name. And we always, maybe jokingly in a way, we think he's like the best pound for pound fighter on the planet.

He's the most dangerous man in the world. But like, what does it like to work with someone like Ryan? Because the man's just so smart. He's such a wizard. And he's been where you're at before. Yeah. It's like real, like, refreshing to, you know, train with someone that's on that next step. Like, I feel like he is the best jiu-jitsu guy in MMA.

Like, he's transitioned the best, has the best game for it. And, like, his striking is definitely nothing to be, like, slept on. You know, I've had him spin kick me in the head before, you know, and it didn't feel very nice. But, yeah, it's just refreshing to train with someone that high of a level, and it kind of makes me want to, you know, get to that level someday. It's just kind of refreshing because you get kind of, I don't know, kind of laxidical. you're like, oh, I'm just training, I'm just doing this, whatever. And then you get to see that level where he's, you know, just training every day, like, so focused. And he's at such a high level.

He has, you know, all these high level guys that'll just jump in on him, you know, back to back to back. And they're all struggling, you know, and he's just, you know, looking there half asleep like he always is. And it's crazy to watch. And it just kind of, you know, makes me want to get to that level. Yeah, he went from being the guy in the ultimate fighter. People were like, people would like eye roll when he was booked the fight. They were like, oh, God, here we go. It's the boring jiu-jitsu guy.

And now he's dropping dudes in the octagon his last couple of fights. Dropping Darren Elkins, that is very difficult to do. That guy is a savage. And Ryan Hall dropped him twice, I think, in his last fight. Yeah, yeah, that was a crazy fight. It's weird when you see someone like the jihitsu guy, you know, outstriking the striker. And it's kind of, uh, that's definitely something that I, I aspire to kind of get to, but, you know, taking it fight by fight, obviously.

Did you get a chance to speak with your pop Ben Ascgren following the win? I think he texted me a little bit. We were also texting about some of our, like, funky family stuff, so it kind of worked out, timing-wise. So, yeah. I spoke with him probably a month ago, and he was like, yeah, I think we got some things going on. And then right before the fight started, it was probably that morning on Saturday, the one with Sarah McMahon drops on the fight past Twitter page.

It was so great, man. Life's pretty good right now between the show and winning fights and eating M&Ms, shooting those cool videos with Ben and the fam. Like, life's pretty good right now. Is it not? Yeah, definitely. This is kind of one of the things that I'm trying to be like super appreciative of is like not just fighting, but having all this other stuff, you know, kind of with the company. Getting to do all this cool stuff that it's like, you know, obviously the fighting's cool, but it's like I get to go train with this, you know, Olympian, you know, both Sarah and Ben were, you know, in the Olympics. And it's like, that's crazy to think about.

And then, you know, getting to train with Ryan Hall, getting to do all this video content with Fight Pass. And it's, yeah, I'm having a good time with it. And I'm just trying to, you know, enjoy it and make the most of it. When do you want to get back in there? Do you want to just turn right back around as soon as possible, or do you want to take some extra time, spend some time with Ryan and others and continue to hone your craft, as the kids say, and just kind of slow roll everything. What are you thinking? I think just because at the end of the day, the fights don't get easier. They go the other way.

So I'm actually looking at booking a flight to Thailand, spending some time out there a couple weeks. and just working on the striking. I feel like I need to get crisper, just kind of sharpen everything up and, you know, obviously try to go spend some more time with Ben, but more wrestling-oriented, you know, maybe if I could get to Ryan Halls before the next fight, tune up some more stuff from there.

It's just kind of because the fights just get exponentially more tough, so I need to, you know, kind of be prepared for that. And then, you know, just kind of honing my craft overall and just getting better and showing people that I deserve to be here. So hopefully the commentary is not as negative next time. Listen, you're still winning fights. That's all that matters. I can say whatever they want, but you got your win bonus. That's all the matter.

Have you been to Thailand before? Is this the first time you've gone or that you're going? No. Farthest I've been was like Mexico. So it's going to be a big one for me. There you go. Oh, man. I remember talking to Cynthia Calvio, she went out there and spent some time out there.

She said it was like a life changer, like not just because of the training you get, but just the area and like some of the things you have to do independently to like just kind of get through each day because it's not like the most luxurious place on earth. You're there to work and you can tell as soon as you get there. So are you looking forward to just the learning experiences you're going to get outside of just training on your striking? Yeah, definitely. It's kind of, I don't know. It's like one of those things that so many people,

like dream of doing and then I'm able to do it because of my job or like you know I you know I'm more in a position where I need to do it and it's kind of um yeah I'm really looking forward to you know just doing as much cool stuff as I can really making the most of you know the position that I'm in and uh you know what opportunities the UFC is kind of provided for me what did you think of the main event on Saturday between figurato and Moreno that was a crazy fight I think those fights where, you know, both of these guys just, you know, kill themselves and kill each other. It's just kind of, it's like a different thing to watch because like a 15-minute fight versus a 25-minute fight.

It's a huge difference on your body. I've actually done it before on one of the local shows, and it's just to get there on a high level, I think they're really, you know, putting flyweight back on the map. All the respect to Demetrius, I think, he just, you know, he just, you know, he just, you know, just had too technical of a style for people, but when they see people just, you know, like slugging it out, like trying to kill each other like Figurato and Moreno did, like, uh, I think people really respect that and then, you know, it makes some fans of the division and it makes some fans of those guys. So I think it's good for UFC. It's good for the division and, uh, good

for the fans at the end of the day. As a grappling enthusiast, what did you think of Charles Oliver's performance? Man, I never thought in a million years. I'd see a guy put, Tony Ferguson on his back and keep him there for 15 minutes and almost take his arm home with him in the first round. Yeah, that was crazy. Charles Oliver is definitely something else. That's kind of, you know, another one of those guys that I kind of aspire to get to that level because he's, you know, most submission wins, I think, in UFC history. And that's just kind of a, that's a crazy statistic.

That's, uh, yeah. of respect for that and uh i have a lot of respect for tony too um it is kind of rough though watching him um you know go from such a like living up to the nickname like being the boogeyman of the division to you know being on a two-fights skid but you know that's kind of the nature of the game and he's definitely um he's definitely a gamer so he's you know not taking any easy fights big win for chase hooper this past saturday and listen, you can say what you want about his performances and the lack of striking and all that. He's two and one in the UFC.

He's got two wins. Two finishes. He's getting better. The striking wasn't great on Saturday, and he'd be the first one to admit it, but he has been making improvements. He was landing some big shots. He was dodging a little bit. And if you actually look at the ESPN numbers, Chase Hooper outstruck Peter Barrett on Saturday night. And I get it.

A lot of those strikes took place in the third round. And Peter Barrett was headbanging and blocking the punches with the top of his head. But those have to add up at some point. But listen, he's getting better. He knows he's got those issues. He's planning on fixing them. He says he's going to Thailand. Like, what better place to go if you need to fix your striking?

So good on him. He gets it. He understands. And he's going to try to change things up. As we move ahead to our next guest of the program, a man who knows all about the striking game. He's all business. He's fighting Michelle Paheda in a ridiculous fight at 170 pounds.

It's one of those fights you just say it out loud and just have to laugh because it's just chaotic. And that just makes perfect sense for our next guest. His name, pun completely intended, Chaos Williams, one of the breakout fighters of 2020. All right, back on the program is one Chaos Williams. He returns to action this Saturday, UFC Vegas 17, the final event of 2020, and is loaded as this card is. is he is one half of the fight that everybody is universally predicting will be the most entertaining and might I say with pun fully intended, the most chaotic as he takes on Michelle Beheada. Chaos, good to see you, man. How are you?

Man, I'm blessed, man, I'm blessed, man. Good to be here. Good to be healthy. You know, just ready to, you know, weigh in, go to work Saturday. We spoke a couple days after the knocko win against Abdul Razak al-Hsan and probably maybe 48 hours. after this fight with Bejada was announced and revealed to the world. How long after that knockout win was this fight offered to you? Probably like a week, exactly. Like a week. So not too long.

And you wanted to turn around relatively quickly anyways and try to maybe... Definitely, man. I spoke it into a distance, just like everything else, man. And, yeah, man, I'm just happy that I'm able to be back, you know, get to show the fans, the UFC and everybody else, you know, who believe in me. And also, you know, I'm saying, the people that doubt me, you know, that I'm here to stay in that the UFC got a future.

What's the way to start on their hands, man? I'm just blessed to be back here. It's been a hell of a stretch, not just for you, but for a lot of guys on your team between yourself and Joaquin Buckley, Jamal Hill, big things are happening over there at Mercilago. It's got to be fun, not just for yourself, but watching your teammates sort of give you something to chase and vice versa, right? Definitely, man. As long as we win in, man, you know, one shine, we all shine.

I'm sure you must have seen the reaction to this fight amongst fans when you were booked with Baheda. I mean, as soon as we announced, everyone went crazy. It seems as if the fans and a lot of the media, too, they're more interested in this fight than the main events between Wonderboy and Jeff Neal. Two exciting up-and-coming powerhouses and 170 pounds. Have you noticed how fired up people are for this fight? Yeah, definitely, man, definitely. But I haven't, my thing is, you know, I definitely noticed, you know, but I just been. so focused on just being, just being the best of me I can beat come Saturday, you know,

so I really never get all into the thousands of likes and all the hundreds of comments and stuff like that, you know, I just be tunnel vision focused. I just be dialed in, locked in almost ahead of me. But I definitely see it, though. I definitely see it. I mean, I was going to ask if you're fired up, but you're the kind of guy that gets fired up for any fight, but, you know, having an interesting dance partner like Michelle, does the matchup as you kind of like look at it stylistically? Does it fire you up in that way? I mean, you know, he just somebody else in my way, man. I saw, I look at it, man.

He just somebody else in my way, you know? I don't think about it too much. Pahed is from Brazil, but he does have ties to Michigan as well, which sort of adds to the fun of this one, because you train at Mercy Lago. He trains with James Gray at Scorpion fighting systems from time to time. So there is some local ties to this fight, and I'm not that familiar with the Michigan regional scene,

but is there any kind of like inner area rivalry between the two gyms? I mean, not between me. You know, I don't got a problem with nobody. It's just business with me. That's why I always say it's not personal, just punishment. As far as me, I don't got no, I don't got no bad blood or no problems with anybody. I can't say the same, you know, some of my teammates, you know, I will say, I really can't, you know, point blank, point out no one specifically, but I do know, like,

some of my teammates don't like some people over there. Fair enough, yeah. And I mean, I'm sure you know, Pahedda, always been a showman, that Capoeira style, a lot of theatrics. But it seems like since the loss of Tristan Connolly, he's still using some of those things that put him on the map, but he's been much more controlled with it.

You saw it in the Sanchez fight. You definitely saw it in his last fight with Amadea. I know you don't focus a ton on watching your opponent, but you kind of let your coaches find those open. and fill you in. But is Michelle a guy that you've been paying attention to that have you watched over these last couple of fights? Not really, to be honest. You know, like I said, man, you know, my main thing is just, you know, my main thing is that goal one day. And, you know, just being the best me I can be. You know, he just in a way, you know. Outside of, like, your fights and your

teammates' fights, do you sit down and, like, watch UFC events on the weekends, or do you not really? Yeah, I do sometimes when I'm not, like, real busy and stuff. Yeah. It just depends on who fight you, too. You fought Marano, you fought Al-Hasan. How does this matchup compare to the other two? Like, do you think there's more of a challenge here, less of a challenge? Like, how would you compare it?

Nah, man, I don't feel like it's less of a challenge. You know, I feel like the first two was a challenge. You know, the first two was a challenge. I went in there and did what I did. This one, this one, the challenge as well. Like, every fight is a challenge. Like I said, I never sleep on nobody. It's a fight.

Of course, you know, everybody got a punch of a chance in a fight. But I feel like the first two was more of a test. this one is a test too as well, you know, like I said, he's coming. I know he's going to be in shape. You know, I know he pretty unpredictable. But, you know, like I always say, man, we're just going to test that chin out. How does this thing play out on Saturday? Like, is there a way that you sort of envision this thing playing out? Yeah, I'm sure. I envisioned it, you know, like I said, man, if I can, if he doing that, if he's doing all that crazy dance and stuff, you know, you got to pay, man. First round knockout. If not, you know, second round, TKO. Hey, worst kind of worst, you know, unanimous decision. third, I mean, you know, and it was a decision.

So if he starts dancing around, we can expect the first round knockout. Yeah, definitely. If all goes well, and there are people that I've seen out there on social media land that are already saying this, they're ready to start throwing your name all over these awards lists at the end of the year, breakout fighter of the year. You certainly have one of the knockouts of the year. But some folks are even considering you in the fighter of the year conversation if you get the job done on Saturday. Do those things hearing your name in the last?

conversations. Is that something that you pay attention to it all? Definitely, man. I'm grateful to be mentioned. You know, I would definitely get that knockout of the year, though, to my boy, Joaquin, though, man. You know, nobody, nobody's seen nothing like that, man. You know, I get credit to real. Mane got that award, number one, knockout of the year. As far as the fire at the year, break out of the year, man, you know, I'm very modest, but, you know, they give it to me, man. I'm here, man, you know, I'm hungry. But, I mean, at the end of the day, like, I look at the main gold. Like I was saying, one of my other interviews, that's like a defensive player of the year award or, you know,

a rookie at a year award or something like that. That's good and all, but we're trying to get them, we're trying to get them championships. You know what I'm saying? We're trying to get them NBA championships in my league, the UFC title one day. And it's no rush. It's no rush. But, you know, that's the main focus, just continue to be better. So when we do get to that point and put myself in a position to where I do be in that position, I keep it. And, you know, that's just what it is. You know, but I mean, if they're going to give me an extra $50,000 for winning one of them awards or something, hey, definitely, man, everybody go vote for me. Give you all the awards, if that's the case.

For real. Go show some love, man. I need to go get some more drip, man. I need to go get some more drip, man. Was it, did you, oh, did you watch UFC 256 on Saturday? Yeah, yep, yep. What did you think of Kevin Holland's knockout? Man, it was nice, man.

It was nice. It was nice, man. It was nice. So Joaquin's number one, which one's number two? Yours or? Yeah, man, my number two, man. My number two, man, you know? Because, I mean, not only that, it's who I knocked out, man.

You know, like I said, I'm very modest, man. But it's like who I knocked out too, man. A lot of people was, I had even some of my own homies who was like, oh, man, like, I was a little worried for you, man. And you don't got to be worried for me, man. I do this, man. I was made for this. I was made for this, you know?

But, like, how they was talking about him, you know, that's just what it was. You know, he's a dangerous guy. man, a lot of people just, they don't know about him like that just because, you know, he's a pretty silent assassin. You know, he wasn't out here talking and really, you know, calling out people or nothing like that. But, I mean, you, you got 10 knockouts in the first round, man, like, you're a pretty dangerous dude. What are they all saying about Bejeda?

I mean, basically the same thing. I mean, not as far as the other one, but, you know, it's just going to keep getting every fight is going to be the same thing, you know. I feel like every fight is going to be the same thing because I'm continuing to progress. I was going to get better, you know, every fight is going to be more important than the last fight. And basically, that's just what it is. You know, people are going to keep sleeping on me. But like I said, they're going to keep sleeping on me. The doctor going to wake them up.

But that's what it is, man. They're sleeping on me, man. I'm going to show them something. I don't like to talk too much, man. You know, I don't like to talk too much. I like to let Dee speak for their self. Well, when you were last on after the last knocko in, you said that a lot of your friends, want a lot of money off of you.

They all bet on you and you paid them off in a big way. And we're discussing whether or not you think they might slide you a little percentage of that, a little commish. Any extra love? I mean, yeah, definitely, man. I had a couple of my people's, man. They show mad love, man. Mad love, man.

I mean, I had people, man, I ain't going to put their business out there, but I had people vans and, you know, people broke them just off the love. That's amazing. That's the way it should be. Definitely, man. I wasn't even expecting it, man. Like, it was, it was, I appreciate it too, man. Y'all knew who you are.

There is a, I'm just going to go ahead and ask you about it because it's interesting kind of the connection to it because your teammate, Wachim Buckley, like we talked about, he's found himself in this rivalry with James Krause, who's in your weight class. And it seems like from talking to both guys, they both want the fight. And I don't know this for sure. but it sounds like being in different weight classes might be the hold up in just making this fight happen because it seems like a no-brainer to make it. If that's the case, and I know you guys are both of the same management company,

is that a fight that would make you interested after Saturday? You and Krause, considering you can have that chance to maybe get one back for your teammate there? Nah, man, you know, I'm my own man. You know, I'm my own man. And I don't want a conflict of interest, you know? Like I said, we are men by the same people

at the end of the day, you know, if, like I said, what, what shall be will be. If it was meant to happen, it's going to happen. But that's not nothing that I'm looking at. You get what I'm saying? Like, Wakeem got a problem with them.

They're both men, let them do what they do. You know, me, I'm my own man. I don't got no problem with them, you know. But, yeah, man, I stay beef, man. Let them handle their beef, you know. Well said. I'm glad you said it that way. I was kind of like pondering

whether or not to ask it. I was like, you know what? I wanted to get your taken. That's the answer. I was hoping you would give chaos. Let these two guys get after it, whether it's in the octagon or just, you know, on the maths or something. Just get into it, get it done. And let's move on with life, right? Yeah. Well, listen, you're the man. Hopefully, uh, you get these individual awards and they throw you a little, some 50 Gs with that, but, uh, I need that, man. Need that. No. I was going to say, what was going to say, like, this fight has

fight of the night. I mean, this fight has award money, bonus money written all over. It does it not? I mean, you're going to walk away, win, lose, or draw with some good money. Worst case at error, this is fight of the night. Like, it has to be. Everyone is fired up with this one, chaos. It's crazy. Can't wait. There is Chaos Williams. The man is all business. He's done talking. Just wants to fight. It is time for face punching, ladies and gentlemen. It takes on Michelle Paheda this Saturday, featured about UFC Vegas 17.

I can't wait to see how that thing plays out. And, man, I can't get it out of my head. He just goes, Michelle Pahua starts dancing around. He's getting knocked out in the first round. Oh, my goodness. Cannot wait to see how that fight plays out as we begin to put a bow on this edition

of what the heck. Still have a great conversation to come if you hadn't seen it already. But first, the usual big shout out. And thank you. to you for watching and or listening to the program right now for checking us out each and every week. It means the world. And a lot of people have been hitting me up over the last few weeks saying, how can we help?

How can we help? Make sure you tell a friend, tell two friends, share the episode, retweet, all that good stuff. That is much appreciated. Big thank you to Casey Liding on the production, Jose and Alex on the graphics and dealing with me being a pain in the ass every single week. And as always, have a heck of a week, everybody. We wrap things up with my chat with the assassin baby himself. What a performance at UFC 256 in the main event. He did not walk away with the Flyway Championship out,

but he probably walked away with a lot of fans and a lot of respect. Here he is, Brandon Moreno. Ladies and gentlemen, we were treated to an instant classic on Saturday night at UFC 256. The flyway title was on the line between James and Figuero and this man, who for 25 minutes, they stood in front of each other and they put on the greatest flyweight fight of all time. One of the best fights of the year.

One of my favorite fights of all time if we're being honest. And it looks like we're going to see more of it because they fought to a draw. So let us say hello to one half of that unbelievable fight, the assassin baby himself, Brandon Moreno.

Brandon, how are you, man? Yeah, man. Thank you. You know, right now I feel very sore with some pain, but happy. Happy, I'm proud of all this moment. You know, I leave it right now.

I feel like I speak for all fans of the sport, thank you for that incredible fight on Saturday. I mean, it really was amazing to watch, and I've said this a few times. This is one of those times where after the fight and the event ended, I was jacked up for like another day or two. Like, I couldn't go to sleep, man. Like, what was the aftermath of that night like for you? Did you fall right of sleep, or were you still just flown with adrenaline after going through a fight like that? No, man, I mean, after a fight, I never can't sleep, you know? I go to the bed like four or five p.m. I am.

And yes, and after a fight like that, everything was so crazy, you know. Because in that moment when the fight is over, like, comes day and why, this time, man, Congress kids, the best fight in the Flyway Division, all that stuff, like, oh, nice, you know. But then I went to the hotel

and I started to check my cell phone and watch all the people talking about the fight, watch some highlights and like, man, this, this fight was wild, you know. It was hard, you know. Obviously, Figuerrello is the champion for one reason, but I show to the world he's a human being just like me and you. Yeah, I thought your game plan was a little wild at first. I was like, oh, my God, he's just going to stand right in front of him.

But then I remember back to our conversation like, this doesn't surprise me at all. But one thing I did want to touch on because there was a lot said on the broadcast in the fifth round about your arm and, you know, broadcasts without it might have been broken. You said after the fight that was nothing, maybe it was your shoulder that was affected. Have you had the chance to get your arm checked out since Saturday night? Yeah, I mean, yesterday I had an, in all my, in my left arm just to stay sure everything is fine. I have an appointment with the doctor today and later. So hopefully everything is fine, you know, in the fight. And, man, everything are excuses, okay?

I never, I don't like too much excuses. But, you know, in the fifth round, all my left arm was destroyed, you know. I had too much activity with my left arm, a lot of jats, a lot of cooks. And, yeah, my left shoulder was, like, destroyed too much. I feel like weird because my shoulder feel like tired, you know, like heavy, like, like, and my forearm, yes, was very swollen. Hopefully it's no broke. I need to check with the doctor today. But, yeah, I mean, I tried to put more pressure on Davidson.

I can do it in that moment. I was very sad with me watching the repetition of the fifth round. But it is what it is, brother. It is what it is. was a nice fight. I believe I won the third and fourth. The second one was very close, but I don't, man, I don't finish the fight. So everything is our excuses.

I need to make the rematch with Davidson. I know he, he wants the rematch too, or I don't know, but I'll be ready. I mean, Dana White and the UFC have told you in your team, like, you're getting the rematch, right? Like, this is, there is no other option. This is that there's no other fight. You guys are running this back sometime in 2021. Yes, I mean, after the fight, Dana White had an interview with Megan,

and I was waiting for an interview too. Then I was to finish the interview, and come with me and my team and say, hey, enjoy the Christmas, enjoy your family, spend time with them, see you next week, you know, you have the rematch definitely. It was the judge's scorecards were all over the place, Brandon.

Like you said you thought you won the third round. There's a lot of people who thought you won the third round. Not one judge gave you the third round. All of them gave you the fourth round. One gave you the second round. But one judge gives you the fifth round, which I thought was really interesting. Did you know that? Did you know that one judge gave me the fifth round?

Right now I'm trying to stay like a little bit far of, you know, the media, the analyst, you know, to put my mind clear again. But, man, to be honest, I feel I won the two and four. The second one was close. I lost the first one. But I think I lost the piece, you know, just for the end of the round, you know, because he takes me down and draws like two or three punches directly to my face. So that's why I think I lost the fucking fifth round.

But, man, I know. I mean, that is the reason when you leave the decision to the judges. And I understand that. So there were obviously a couple of moments in the fight that that halted momentum for a little bit. First off, the second round, you land the taked down, you get on top. And while Davidson's on his back, he gets you in the eye. And Jason Herzog stops the action. What happened there, if you don't mind me asking?

Man, first of all, I have too much respect for Jason. I think he's amazing. He's one of the most amazing referees right now. But I don't know, man. I understand when you poke one time the eye, you know. I understand one. Even, you know, even two, but three in a row, like, man, I don't know. So he got you.

He poked you in the eye three times in that moment? At least I feel it, you know. I feel the first one. And I'm not sure. to watch all the fight again. But this, this, I think, was a poke eye. I'm not sure.

I can't say completely for saying sure what's up the eye poke. But I feel it. I feel his finger in my eye, like three times at least. And then the third round was probably the most pivotal moment in the entire fight.

It was the low kick. That was just, Man, I felt so bad for you, man. You're clearly at a lot of pain. You're coughing. I thought you were going to throw up all over the octagon. Was that like the worst pain you've ever felt in the fight? Well, no problem.

I have three kids. So my wife was like, ah, I don't care. It's fine. Can I? Yes, man, it was very painful, you know. I think what's the first time I'd take my time, you know? I was when something like that happened is like, oh, I'm fine, I'm fine. I want to fight.

But Yaysa Gersa comes with me and say, man, you realize you can take your time. Like, oh, fuck, man. Okay, I need to take my time. I tried to go really fast to the fight because I know, I knew Pigerelo was getting tired. But just I can do it. Yeah, I was going to ask you about that because everyone's like, oh, he better take the full five minutes here. And you were just like, you can tell that like you were conflicted.

You were like, should I just get back in there 60s after this incredible pain that I'm in? But it was like you found a halfway point between taking the full five and just getting right back in there. Yes. I mean, again, I saw Figuerrello, you know. I saw Figel. I was like with his brief very, very hard, you know, brief. And I try to recover your stuff. you cover yourself, go fast to the fight.

But just I can do it. After that, I was very angry. I'm trying to push forward in that three round and finish strong that round. And I think I do it. Yeah, I thought as soon as you got back in there, you won the rest of that round for sure. When the final horn sounded,

you two just stood in front of each other and you just screamed at each other. It was like one of my favorite moments of the entire night, honestly. It was like just primal moments. moment you guys had that you just knew you went to war for 25 minutes. What is that like to share something like that with another person going toe to toe to for a world championship like that for 25 minutes in front of the world watching? What was that like when that final horn sounded

for you? Man, I was very excited. I was so excited in that moment because I go again with this. I show to the people, I'm real. I'm real in this sport, you know, a lot of different media say, you know, don't give me like any, any single opportunity to win the fight, you know. I understand because Vigereo looks amazing in his last fight, you know, with Joe, with Alex Perez. But, man, I'm just a Mexican kid trying to do something here. Figuero is a human being just like me. and I try to show to the world

I can do something in this sport and that's it I'll have you know Brandon that we did our preview show for the event on Friday and Michael Kiesa was my special guest and he picked you to win the fight he thought you're going to win he said there's something amazing in the air

he thought you were going to go in there and pull it off and he was so close man he was so close to getting that right we found out and I don't know if you've even know about this by now, but we found out after the fight that Davis and Figuerreira was hospitalized the night before with stomach issues. He spoke with the SPN along with his manager, WALID, and he said that he was in the hospital twice. I guess he got food poisoning, all sorts of craziness. Did you know about this at all? Because it seems like this fight, in a way, almost didn't happen on Saturday night.

man that are excuses man to be to be honest that is very normal I mean it's not fine

but it's normal you know I had like I had two fights in the company where I feel very sick and I went

to fight you know I never say nothing never say nothing until this moment because man I mean, I have excuses. I mean, they know why don't go to my hotel, to my room

and put the, I go in my head and say, me, hey, you need to go to the fight? No, it's my responsibility. If he was sick and he doesn't feel really good, why he'd take the fight? I understand. You know, he was there, and he's the main event.

He has some responsibility with the company. But at the at the day it's our problem, you know. I can make excuses too, you know, with my arm, you know. To be honest, I mean, to be honest with you, my left arm was in the field round was destroyed. You know, destroy it completely destroyed.

I try to go forward. I can do it in the fifth round. It's fine, okay. What's a drive? I'm a lost. If I lost that night, it's fine for me. Okay. Maybe he's trying to sell the rematch again, saying that, like, hey, if I was healthy, I knocked this guy out.

Man, come on. I don't know. It's fine. So you didn't know before the fight that this happened? No, no, no. To be honest, no. He told the SPN that had he not gotten sick the night before, the fight wouldn't have got out of the first round. Man, come on.

Come on. I can't know, wait. Can I ask you one thing about the scoring in MMA right now? I'm curious, had you have known the scores, like, I don't know if you've seen like Invicta, Invicta has, when they do their events in Kansas, they have open scoring. So the fighters know, like, what the scores are after each round. Yeah. Would you have liked to have known what the scores dread in the fourth round?

Like, are you a proponent for open scoring, especially after half? having a fight like that on Saturday? Maybe that, man, good question, you know, because if I knew the score until the fifth round, maybe, you know, no with my left arm, maybe I try something crazy, you know, like throw something crazy, like speeding shit or something like that. that name knew that maybe held me in the fight

but I really believe we are good you know I think just the judges need to be more prepared you know not just boxing judges you know we need we need people with more experience

about mixed martial arts I think so two last things before I let you go I know you got to go get that arm checked out obviously you get the rematch to look forward to in 2021. I know you're not even really thinking about that right now because when we last spoke, you said, win, lose or draw, win, loser tie after this fight,

we're going on vacation. Me and the family, we're getting out of here. And obviously, you have to heal up and stuff. If you had to guess, when do you think this rematch happens in a perfect world? In a perfect world, I prefer April because I need to recover myself very well. Go to Tijuana and start to train, you know, slowly, you know, step by step.

And then, again, you know, training camp, game plan, you know. But I can be ready even in March, you know, maybe in March. April is better for me. May or June, it's too much, I think so. Yeah, April. April seems like the sweet spot, Brian. Gives you time to heal up, gives him time to heal up, full camps, and then we get after this thing. And you know what's crazy is you realize you might actually be spending like 50 more minutes with him in there. Because if you beat him in the rematch, they're likely going to do it again.

And then if he wins, you're going to do it again. You guys can be tied together in fighting each other for like a year now, maybe more, right? Have you thought about that? Yes, brother. And I think that can make be more, the flight with division, more excited, you know. And that makes me feel proud too because everybody talks about, you know, like Henry Sejudo, he saved the division. And I believe that, to be honest. And Davidson Figaro, keep the division.

You know, Brandon Moreno maybe can help on that. That makes me feel nice. Yeah, man. Listen, I know you got to go. I just want to say incredible fight, one of the best I've ever seen. And it's just, it's so wild, man. Like, you were the 16th seed on the ultimate fighter. You got released.

And then you earned your way back into the UFC. You fight to a draw in a fight that everybody thought you won. And then you earned your way to a title fight. Did it on three weeks notice after beating Brian Royval. And now another one after that unbelievable battle, you are no longer the assassin baby, brand. You are the assassin warrior. You're the assassin man,

Brandon Moreno. Happy holidays. Enjoy the time with the family. And I cannot wait for this rematch, man. Man. Man, make you feel excited, brother. Thank you so much. Thank you so much.

Enjoy, too, the Christmas, your family, everything this last week of this crazy 2020. We'll see what happened in 2021. But I know it will be awesome. All right, man. All the best to you. You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network.