MMA Fighting - What the Heck: Episode 57 | Josh Thomson, Shane Burgos & TJ Brown

Episode Date: May 4, 2021

This week on What the Heck, MMA Fighting's Mike Heck speaks with Josh Thomson (6:25) to preview Bellator 258 and discuss the idea of fighter unionization. TJ Brown (47:37) recaps his split decision win over Kai Kamaka at UFC Vegas 25, the reaction to the decision since Saturday night and why it's taken steam away from his first UFC win. Finally, Shane Burgos (1:04:50) previews his exciting featherweight matchup with Edson Barboza at UFC 262 on May 15. Follow Mike Heck: @MikeHeck_JR Subscribe: http://goo.gl/dYpsgH Check out our full video catalog: http://goo.gl/u8VvLi Visit our playlists: http://goo.gl/eFhsvM Like MMAF on Facebook: http://goo.gl/uhdg7Z Follow on Twitter: http://goo.gl/nOATUI Read More: http://www.mmafighting.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network. What the Heck with Mike Heck on MMAfighting.com. Now here is your host, Mike Heck. What the heck? Well, hello there, everybody, and welcome to a brand new edition of What the Heck here on MMAfighting.com. I am Mike Heck. Thank you for joining us once again.

Another big week ahead of us in the world of mixed martial arts. Got the PFL back on Thursday. It's a good one. Season debut of Kayla Harrison, the organization. organizational debut of Fabricio Verdum. I'll be heading out on Wednesday to Mohegan Sun to cover Bellator 258. That event goes down on Friday night. It's a really good card.

I know it's taking some big hits along the way, but it's still really good. We get the Bannamway title fight between Juan Archiletta and Sergio Pettis. We get the debut of Anthony Johnson in Bellator, his first fight since April 2017. That lost to Daniel Cormier for the UFC Light Heavyweight title. MVP, Michael Venom Page is back against Derek. Anderson, Patricki Pitbull versus Peter Quirley. It's a really good main card. The prelims are awesome as well.

And the UFC is supposed to be back on Saturday. Although, as of Monday, as I record this, there's certainly a lot of questions. We have not had a main event announced as of yet. It is supposed to be Michelle Waterson versus Marina Rodriguez. And as I said, on onto the next one on Sunday, Rodriguez dealing with some visa issues with the short-notice nature of the fight. So we'll see what happens. I don't know.

I hope it happens. That's the target. Don't know if it will. One of those questions that we had was answered, we confirmed that Donald Seroni is now going to fight Alex Marano. Now that Diego Sanchez is out of fight and out of the UFC. A lot went on with that. Head to MAAfighting.com.

tons of coverage. Stephen Morocco did an amazing job running down the timeline of the battle between the UFC and Diego Sanchez that all led to his release. and it's just a crazy story. But Stephen did a great job, giving you the ins and outs with all of that. But Saturday, still kind of up in the air. I know from everybody that I've spoken to

that is on the card that I have relationships with. They all said, we're all systems go. So I know people were concerned about maybe the card being canceled. I've not heard anything remotely close to that. So expect to see the UFC in action on Saturday with the main event. will be, we shall see at this point. But in terms of who's winning the week in MMA,

in terms of fight cards on paper right now, I mean, Belator, clearly winning that battle at this point. So we'll see what happens. We are coming off of UFC Vegas 25. What a way to close the show by Yuri Prahashka. That was one of the scariest knockouts I've ever seen. Definitely one of the scariest in UFC history. It's the frontrunner for Kio of the year,

in my opinion, fight of the year, at this point between Bajas and Dominic Reyes. Buhashka is in a really interesting spot right now. He could fight for the belt if he wants, but he's going to be waiting a while, or he can just come back and fight Alexander Rackich or whatever he wants to do, I feel like he kind of has carte blanche at this point.

And as it goes with Dominic Reyes, as I reported on Sunday, considering how bad that knockout was, he's doing okay all things considered. I'm told by a member of his team, some swelling, some bruising, more disappointments than anything else. But other than that,

it's as good as can be expected for the Devastator. So he's now lost three fights in a row. None of that means anything right now. The way he went down in his head hit and his neck kind of folded back. I mean, Dominic Ray is one of the good guys in the sport. And we wish him nothing but the best on his road to recovery. But happy to hear that the damage was minimum,

at least as it was on Sunday. So we'll see what happened. talks all about that card on the post-fight show and on onto the next one. So you can head back on YouTube or head over to the podcast network to get our thoughts on UFC Vegas 25. And we'll be talking a little bit about that card in a moment. So three guests this week, kind of a shorter episode. There's a lot happening this week. So going out there to Mohegan, you'll get a lot of interviews while I'm out there. I'll be a busy, busy man. And then after the card, taking another trip on Saturday. You'll see what you'll see what.

happens going to visit some fighters one of which fighting in a main event on may 22nd that should probably narrow it down so that'll be a lot of fun stay tuned for that so let's get right to it let's run down the lineup we're going to wrap things up with Shane burgo's big fight coming up at ufc 262 for that man against edson barboza in less than two weeks super fun fight we'll check in with the hurricane a little bit later on tj brown is going to join us he got his first ufc win on Saturday at UFC Vegas 25. Super fun fight, but it's been mired in controversy,

which is not T.J's fault at all. We're going to hear his side of the fight and the controversial split decision win that he received against Kai Kamaka the 3rd. A lot of people feel like Kai Kamaka the 3rd was robbed. I'll be honest, I scored it for Kai, watching it live. I think it's pretty obvious

the way I approached the interview, but I wanted to see what T.J. Brown had to say because I've said, said this many times my career. I see what I see, but I'm not a fighter. I'm not a judge, nor do I ever claim to be. And T.J. Brown's a fighter. He was in there. So if he feels like he won the fight, I want to know why. And he's going to tell us. And again, he shouldn't be getting any crap about this. Like, if you didn't agree with the decision, you don't go on social media and troll T.J. Brown, because the man fought his ass off. And that's all you can ask for.

It was an awesome fight. And if the main event didn't happen, that would have been the fight of the night. Easily. No doubt about it. So I'm excited to chat with T.J.A. Brown. But first, let's talk Bellator 258. Let's talk the state of M.A. Some of the big stories with one of the best guys we could do that with.

So this is going to be part of the broadcast team on Showtime this Friday. Let us say hello to Josh Thompson. All right. So we get a lot going on in the world of mixed martial arts, including the return to Bellator after a short hiatus, Bellator 258 goes down Friday night at Mohegan Sun Arena. Main card airs live on Showtime. The Bannamweight title is on the line of the main event. Juan Archiletta defends his title against Sergio Pettus.

If you look at this card, this is a fun one coming up on Friday. So I want to bring on the man, Josh Thompson to talk all about it. Josh, how are you, man? How are you, man? Doing great. It's good to have you here. This is a very loaded up card from top to bottom on Friday. but to sort of go back a few weeks,

you know, the Bellator and Showtime era kicked off around a month ago and they came out with some great packages, the open to the first main card on Showtime, paying homage to the old Strike Force days. I mean, that was phenomenal. It just feels like it's a very, who, oh, gosh, there we go. It just feels like it's a very big deal now that it's on Showtime.

So what has been your initial reaction overall seeing this new era Bellator on Showtime? It's not even my initial reaction. What it comes down to is, the fans have been reacting amazing. Like what I've seen throughout is, I told everybody like on my show, I was podcasting laying in with Big John McCarthy

that we talk about a lot of, we talk about MMA in general, not just Belator, not just the UFC. We talk about one. We talk about PFL. We talk about them all. But when it really comes down to is we're trying to get the fans to understand

and start to appreciate the sport again itself and not just one organization. And so that's really what we've seen from the fans. I've tried to convince them, you know, in that in that first couple weeks before we went on the showtime, like, hey, if you guys check out these first three cards, you guys don't like these first three cards, okay, then I want to ever bug you again about watching other promotions. And it just so happened that a ton of people reached out to me like said, hey, we're so happy, we're so thankful that you talked

me into like, hey, check this promotion out or check this fighter out on this night. And that's kind of where I feel like my duty as a former fighter, former world champion. And just someone who's been, I grew up in this sport. I'm a nerd, man, when it comes to this sport. And so So it was my obligation of my duty to show these, to show all these fans and all these new fans that are coming on, like, hey, this is a fighter to look out for. This, these two guys are going to make for a heck of a fight. That's my job.

I don't just put that on the media. I put that on myself. And so I feel like it right now, that Bellator right now is doing a phenomenal job in matchmaking and making sure that the fights are becoming more, and I wouldn't say that becoming more, but are now more evenly matched to the point of like, hey, now we have the ranking system. Now we know who is number four and who is number five or who is number two and who is number

three. Like who is fighting who next. Who, what do they have to do to get to the title? Now we have a little bit of clarity in that situation. And I think that was the first step in a huge direction that we needed to do, which was towards the top. Some of those boxes that you've sort of checked off for the fans and that the fans sort of responded to, there's a lot of those boxes to be checked off on Friday.

I mean, it's a really good card. And at one point, Josh, it was a really, really, really, really good card. Yeah. Fortunately, we had some, we had some hiccups along the way. The James Galaher, you know, that injury kind of stung for the Patchy mixed fight. Patchy fortunately stays on the card, but I think the one that really crushed people, and this is no surprise to anybody, was losing you all Romero from the Grand Prix and the fight against Rumble Johnson on Friday.

Again, Rumble stays on the card. But how much did your heartbreak when you found out you all was out of the ground frame? Yeah. Look, this is the, you know. this is just a continuation of the 2020 crap year. But you know what? It happens to everybody in the terms of the promotion business. You know, I mean, there's been the UFC, it's happened to the UFC a bunch of times.

PFL has happened to now, even though PFL is just getting restarted. You know, as far as one, I haven't been all the follow up in terms of if they've lost some fights because of that. But look, these are the circumstances that promoters have to deal with all the time. And so, you know, Bellator is just kind of just rolling with the. the punches, no pun intended, but they're going with it, man. And look, there was another fight on there that to me was going to be a fabulous fight was Lorenz Larkin and he was supposed to fight Van Stenis and Van Stenis got hurt. And that to me, people don't understand how good Van Stenis is.

And I look at him as like the potential, the guy who should be next, not next in line for a title shop, but next in line to be basically the head guy to run that division, 185 pounds when Gayguard steps aside. You know, if Gaygard is able to continue to defend his title successfully, I look to see his teammate in Bancinas take over for him. And he's on the right path. He's nasty, good. He's good all the way around. His loss to John Salter, I think was very eye-opening for him.

And he understands now what he needs to do to take this fight game a little more serious if you ever wants to become champion. And Lorenz Larkin was a perfect test for him to see exactly where both of them would lie in that division. And so that fight to me was the one I was really upset. see lose. Don't be wrong. Everyone was everybody, everybody that knows anything about the sport was upset to see that you all wasn't going to be able to fight. I got that. Okay. And then everybody that is James Dahlher is like the Floyd Mayweather. Everybody, they may not want to see him win, but they want to see him lose. So they're going to tune in to watch that as well. So, yeah, those are, those are three fights that I feel like we lost. But look, you've got other fighters

that are stepping in on short notice, making sure the, the fight goes on, you know, and, and I think, I don't think this card has been hurt at all in terms of how good these fights are going to be. And look, and it's not even this card. I was saying when that card was fully shaped up, that this is hands down the best fight, the best fight card in Bellator history, you know, just with the level of fighters that we have on the card. But the May 21st card is catching up now. And I've also seen that, you know, the Amosoph and Lima card, that also now is starting to shape up. Maybe you guys are not privy to that information, but I am, but I can't tell you.

so I'll wait for that all to drop. But I'm seeing that card come to come about, and I'm thinking to myself, dang. You know, it feels like each card is starting to kind of outdo itself. I was a little nervous because after the May 7th, then you've got Cyborg on there as the main event for the next card, and then you've got, you know, you got Fabia Edwards, who's Leon Edwards' brother.

He's fighting Austin Vanderford on that May 21st card, and there's a bunch of other fights on there as well. But I'm saying that card, when this May 7th card was announced, I'm like, oh, man, I wouldn't want to be a fight on the card right. after because you just, you know, all the hype, everything's already been pushed towards, you know, the May 7th card. But now this card is shaping up to be even, is to be as good, if not better. And so, you know, I just can't even, I can't even imagine where the, the June car is going to

go, you know, with, with Amosov and Lima, that card right there. If that card starts to shape up to be as good as these other two cards are going to be in May, I'm excited, man. I get these cards, you know, the rich child was able to. to put together, you know, he kind of held, he's in the works before, you know, he's, he left to do another job, to take over in another business venture. He put together some really good cards, really staffed cards. And then, you know, Mike Cogan and some of the other guys that have joined back together

to make sure that the cards are running smooth. They're doing a fabulous job as well as putting these together. As long as we stay doing what we are doing right now, this promotion is going to be hard to beat. And I want to remind everyone, and I've said this, I don't know how many countless times, the organization that Scott Coker started before was StrikeForst. That was talent deep, talent deep. And it went on to all become USC champions.

Almost all of them did. You know, you had Robbie Lawler. You had Tyrone Woodley. You had, you know, D.C. I mean, like, you remember, King Belasca started in Strike Force. You know, I mean, you had all these guys, you know, that were there, Jockeret, Luke Rockhold. I mean, all these guys were in Strike Force.

And I'm saying this in all, with all due respect, I was saying this with nothing about respect to those guys. This roster is way better. The Belator roster is way better than the Strike Force roster was, you know, at the time that it got bought. And that, that talent pool was nasty good. You had Nate Mark Corrie. You had Fador, you had Verdum who became champion. Also, I keep forgetting about Verdume.

You know, we've had, they had a lot of guys that came through that Strike Force roster. And people that had been cut before by the USC saying that they were washed up and they were done. And then Coke rekindled their career. And when Strike Force was bought, they went over there and became champions and showed everyone about how good they were. That was very, that was huge for Strike Force. But I said, I've been saying this for the last probably four months, five months, not just because I worked for Bellator.

This roster is stacked when it comes to the top of talent, you know, in the sport itself. But I want to remind people that's better than what Strike Force have when UFC bought it up. Belator to me, and I've made this comparison before, it's like, it's like a fantasy football Dynasty League, where you like draft a team like from the draft and then you know they're going to be good. You just have to wait a couple of years and everything will fill up. I feel like Bellator is at a great job, one, picking up some really good free agents along the way, some guys that were like just outside the top 15 of the UFC, guys like Sergio Pettis. And then some of the prospects that they've signed. They've done a really good job of just loading up for the future. And one of those guys

that they signed along the way was Sergio Pettis from the UFC. And he's getting ready to fight Juan Archeretta for a world championship, which is huge. And Archelais, and Archer's, making that first title offense, that fight with Patchy Mix was absolutely ridiculous last year. And Pettus has looked great since coming over to Belleter. The win over Ricky Bandejas was super impressive. What sticks out to you in this fight for the Bannamway title? Like what sort of intangible is these guys bring to the table that make you excited for the match of itself? Well, I think the movement.

The movement's going to stand out to me. If one archelaide can keep his moving on point for five rounds, which we saw he can do, if he comes in as good as shape as he did against Apache Mix, he got himself out a lot of trouble in those first two rounds. And he would, I mean, you could have easily said that one of those rounds is a 10-8 round. You know, especially I think it was the first one where he just got dominated, had his back take. It was, you know, and Patchy was just chasing the submissions over and over and over.

He was defending and defending. It's the movement to me. Ken, one artillery to increase that or stay with that type of movement throughout a five-round fight and understand that he's just going to stand in the center of the cage. He's not going to do anything that, Juan hasn't seen before. He's going to stand in the center of cage and wait for Juan to come to him. The problem is those that Juan can touch him and touch him and still rounds that way.

So Pettis is going to have to put himself outside the comfort zone and try to get after him a little bit. But can he do it without leaving himself out of position? That's going to be the problem. And so the other thing as well is, can he take, can Juan Archela to take Anthony, or can take Sergio Pettus down? Can he do that? And so that's kind of the question is if he can get Pettus down, I think he'll have a lot more success and not only get him down can he hold him down i don't think petis i don't me wrong petis got a good he's got a good gillotine he's uh he's he's got good triangles and arvars off on his back he's got a real

good jihitsu game from his back like you know like his brother did for a while the thing is though is can he sustain doing that type of movement from the bottom throughout the fight and still stuff takedowns if he's able to get back up to his fight the two of them it's a lot of work it's a lot of work in terms of, look, if I do get taken down, do I stay active off my back or do I try to get back to my feet? Because it burns a lot of energy to defend the takedown and try to stay active off your back or try to get back to your feet. And when I do get back up,

every time I have to get up, it's more and more likely for him to get taken down. So there's a lot of questions to be answered by Juan for him to go out there and get all those things done. And there's a lot of questions to be answered by Pettus is can he stuff the takedowns and figure out ways to cut the cage off so Juan Archelota isn't just picking, just kind of picking and choosing his shots

and point fighting him to win the rounds. I'm a silver lining guy, Josh. So when the Yol Romero news came out, I was bummed, but then the silver lining in me came out. I said, well, I guess if there is one, it's that more attention can now be put on the title fight because when it comes to some of the big fights on the books for the major promotions over the next several months,

and you ran off a few of them already just for Bellator, this one, to me, is flying way under the radar. Is it not? I mean, in terms of the title fight? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it definitely is. It's going to be an action-packed fight. There's a lot of things that can happen.

Sergio Pettis has proven that he's way better at 135 than he was at 125. And when I had talked to him when he first came over, I said, like, what was the reason for wanting to leave? And he's like, it just made sense. He's like, look, at the time, so who did I just won the title, was kind of fighting at 135, wasn't sure he was coming back down. You didn't know what the 125-pound division was going to do. And it was, I was, I had been through that moment when UFC had cut the 155 pound division. And I got offered a contract to fight at 170. I was like, oh, am I going to fight?

No one there is my weight. Those guys are enormous. I mean, I saw, I crossed the path from the hallways with Matt Hughes before. The guy's huge. He's like thick and, no way. There's no way I'm fighting that guy. Like, I knew I wasn't a big guy. So I think with Sergio, I think it took him some time to realize that he had to work his way up to 135.

He did it properly. He's had a chance to settle in against some of the other guys at 135 here in Bellator. And he didn't want to be forced into having to go up to 35 until it was his moment to make that choice. He also just didn't like the fact that he didn't know where 125 was going in the UFC. So he said, let me just get out of there and not have to worry about continuing to cut weight. There was a lot of talk. I also heard that I heard that the UFC didn't really like him fighting in 135. And he was killing himself to get to 125.

And he was noticed his performances weren't doing. he wasn't having the performances that he was having in the gym when he wasn't having the cut weight. So if you put a lot of pressure on fighters, you know, to stay in a weight class, that they feel like they just can't, they've outgrown. Then it puts more pressure on them to win the fight.

And so I think for him, when he decided to come over, it was good for him in terms of for his mental. And there's a, and people have to remember that for fighting, it's 80 to 90% mental. I would say even more sometimes depending on the fighter. But I mean, I would say it's at least 90, 80% mental for a fighter to understand that if I don't go into a fight feeling mentally ready, you know, whether it's a weight cut, whether it's cardio, whether it's your diet and nutrition,

whatever it is. Like it just starts playing with your mind as the fight goes on. Oh, I got hit. Oh, is it because I'm slow? Is it because I'm, am I slowing down? Is it, did I cut too much weight? You start, those type of things go through your mind while you're fighting. If you knew that everything didn't run according to plan or there's more pressure on you from the outside.

So I think for Pettus, it was a good opportunity for him to come in. And I'm excited for I'm excited for him, period, because this is an opportunity for him to solidify the fact that he deserves to be the champion. I agree with everything you just said there. And before that happens, Rumble Johnson's back, four years removed from the loss of Daniel Cormier, leaves the UFC, parts ways, Bellator picks him up like days later.

And now he's set to make his debut against Jose Augusto. You being a guy, Josh, that's competed at a high level, obviously with your analytical minds, you know, you and John McCarthy do a great job on the weighing in podcast. What burning questions do you have right now in regards to Anthony Johnson after four years away from fighting in the cage?

You know, I don't have any. I don't have any. You want to know why I don't have any? I talked to Anthony the other day and he answered them all. So that's why I don't have any. So, no, all the questions that were answered that I needed to answer or answer.

And I said, hey, how do you feel? I feel like a beast. You know, I say, okay, like, what changes should I see? He's like, you're just going to see. He's like, you're going to see everything that I couldn't do before. You're going to see it in this fight. But that was also when he had just found out that he wasn't fighting Yuel anymore.

So there was a couple little questions that I had. Can he stuff Yowell's take down? You know, and would you all shoot? And that was the question that even he had for himself. He wasn't sure would you all shoot. But now he's fighting a different fighter. He's fighting somebody who's a tough, gritty fighter. And Google, he's going to come walk forward, try to get through him.

And he's going to try to touch him. If he touches him, you know, there's a good chance. he could put AJ to sleep. But AJ, though, to me, has always been someone that people underestimate his speed and his accuracy until they get in there. I've trained with him. I've sparred with him. I've grappling with AJ.

I understand all those things. He has that herky jerky kind of stand up where he moves his hands and he kind of, he gets you all anxious and ready like before he throws. And you can't tell when he's going to throw when he throws it straight and right down the pipe so you don't see it until it's too late and it touches your chin. You can ask all of his opponents who've all woken up, at the lights. That's exactly what happened. You know, they just don't know what happens. They just said, one second, I saw his hands moving the next second, someone was standing over me,

waking me up saying the fight was over. And that's what you get with Anthony Johnson. You're going to always get that. The question is, is how hard can you make him work to stuff to take down, slow him down, and not take any punishment? And I guess that's going to be the question that needs to be answered that night. Like I said, all the other questions they've always been, they've all been asked it already when it comes to AJ. It's just a matter. matter of, I don't think the ring rush for him is going to be as, it's not going to be real, because he's got, he's got the equalizer. He's got the power in his hands, you know, and he's got quick, quick kicks. People don't give enough credit for his kicks. He's got a quick

switch kick. It goes right to the head. He sets it up right off of his right hand or right off with his left hook, you know, and he's had a couple knockouts in the UFC previously to that. So I think a big reason for him leading the UFC was because the USC struck that deal with ESPN. reason for them to sign people like AJ back. We understand where they understand where they're at now, the ESPN will pay them no matter who's on their network. And sure, if they do make a, they do end up going over 500,000 buys, sure, they make a little bit more money, but it's not going to break them. They're already getting paid. It's become a business model for them. And that's why sometimes you get one good card that's stacked, they can, they can out-pluck the coverage, you know,

and make a ton of money on it, like the show they had, what, a week ago or two weeks ago, that show. and then you get a card like we had, you know, last night. Or, yeah, on Saturday night. They only had, you know, I'd say three or four good fights on it. That's what you're going to get from the UFC these days. And so I think that's why AJ was, he was expecting a certain amount of money. And they were, I don't think they were, they were really going to go that way, given that they're, their deal with ESPN doesn't obligate them to go that way.

And so AJ has goals for himself. And so he decided, hey, I might as well sign with Bellator. guess what? There's a huge, that's what kind of gave Scott Coker the idea of let's do this light heavyweight tournament and UL became available and it just made it even more enticing and more fun with the signing of Corey Anderson, you know, and Nemcoff beaten Bader the way he beat him. It's like, okay, well now we've got a ton of flavor that can be mixed into this. Let's do it. And it made sense. There's a perfect opportunity for AJ to come over to Belvoir, a perfect opportunity for Scott Cobra to put this light heavyweight World Grand Prix on.

And how about Jose Augusto, 29 years old? What an opportunity he has in front of him on a week's notice. He's won five in a row, had a nice submission win about a month ago. And you know, you've probably seen to yourself. Most people you see on social media are just ready to line this guy up as another name on the long list of Rumble Johnson knockout victims. But like you said, Jose's a gritty, tough guy. And he's going in there with not a lot of pressure on him. Do you think he has the ability and the skill set to go up there and shock a lot of people on Friday? Yeah, he's got the ability. And he shouldn't have the mindset. He's got to have the mindset. but if he's coming from that Patricio Camp, which he is, he's going to have that mindset.

And so, and the other thing, too, is all those guys in that gym, they never stop working out. They're training every single day. It doesn't mean that they're training hard every day, but they're in there, they're in there refining their craft. You know, and there's a lot of top talent that's come out of that gym, and they're all prepared to fight, and they're all prepared to lay it all out there on the line. So AJ's got to be ready for that. The one thing that, like, we, I think everybody wants a question to answer, not just about AJ, is the inactivity.

How is that going to play a factor? I don't see the ring rust being a factor because you've got the equalizers in his hands. But with being gone almost, what, four years removed, it's a lot, it's a lot, it's a lot of things that you have to learn to deal with. The speed of the fight is never the same in the gym, even when you are active. So when he comes back, that first round, he's going to have to figure out the speed of Augusto and Google, my glue call him Google, I think, and then it's like figuring out the speed of which he wants to fight. fight and knowing that you can't train at the speed that you normally fight at because it's not can't be done. You put a lot more pressure on yourself in the actual real fight versus in training. And so will he have an adrenaline dump? Will AJ have an adrenaline dump going in the second

and third round? This is a five round fight. Let's remind people of that. This is not a three round fight. This is in the light heavyweight world grand prix. All of these fights because the champion has to fight five rounds. All of these fights will be five rounds. And so this is a fight for to come back after four years away, having to fight a five-round fight right off the back. So Augusto, all he's got to do is try and get him into that second and third round and see if there's an adrenaline dump and try and really put the pace on him, make AJ work a lot to defend takedowns, you know, to take shots, grind him out against the fence, maybe knees and elbows against the fence,

you know, just dirty boxing that rainy couture style. If he can do something like that, he may be able to upset Anthony Johnson. Patrickie Pitbull set the table for his teammates taking on Peter Quirley. That's a really fun main card fight. But I think the other big storyline, at least of the main card, outside of the main and co-main is the return of Michael Venom Page, takes on Derek Anderson and MVP. Super fun to watch when he is on. I mean, I go back to that fight in Japan.

And what an incredible performance he had that night. Everyone remembers the jumping knee against Cyborg and many others. When this guy is on, there's very few fighters more enjoyable and exciting in the sport than Michael Venom Page. but at times, in a lot of people's eyes, he's become one of the more frustrating fighters in the sport with some of his performances, whether that's fair or not.

It's all depends on who you are, but he's won four straight, three finishes. Derek Anderson's a tough out. For MVP right now, Josh, is the win enough, or does he need to go out there and make a statement, put on a show, and prove some of those doubters wrong on Friday? Look, what's going to happen is, I don't think a win's going to be enough.

Fans are going to, they don't like him, they're going to continue to dislike him. And he's now becoming more of the Floyd Mayweather, like the James Gallagher, that people don't give them credit because they say, oh, look at all the flashiness. The reason why he is so good, like how Floyd was, is that he was so fast, people couldn't touch him,

so he made it look easy. He's good. I mean, like, if you go back, you watch the Douglas Lima fight, he rocked Douglas Lima right before Douglas Lima, dropped him with the leg kick and then finished him. Like, he had rocked Douglas Lima. I'll tell you he rocked him. You know, so in that portion, he was, he was able to touch Lima in ways that other guys were not able to touch Lima.

So when people don't give him credit, I just shake my head thinking to myself, you don't know what you're seeing. You're seeing somebody who, you're seeing another, uh, Lioto Machita when Liotto was in his prime. People just didn't know how to deal with them, the speed, the accuracy, the movement, you know, just, it frustrated people and made them lunge in. Ryan Bader fell victim to it back in his first, you know, his first fight against Liotto. that frustration is real when you're in there. You want to touch him. You want to fight. I've seen other guys that's happened to.

I quartered Gray Nader when he fought Clay Gwita. He was just chasing Clay Gwita around and he couldn't get him to fight. It was frustrating him. Same thing when Gray Nader fought Ryan Hall. It's like, come over here and fight me and guys don't want to fight you. When it comes to Michael Venom Page, people want him to fight them and he's not going to do it. He's just going to touch you and touch you. He's long.

He's lanky. He's faster than all of them. You know, so when they leave themselves out of position, he's going to capitalize. Most of the time, it leads to a highlight real knockout, unfortunately, for those guys. And so people continue to judge him based off of what he, what, like, the style of which he fights, and some days you have great nights and some days you don't. Like the Paul Daly fight. Paul Daly understood the way to beat him was to make him come after him.

And unfortunately, it was a boring fight. And then when he chased after Paul, Paul was able to get the takedown. And so those type of things is like a lot of people have tried to figure out that solution. Unfortunately, that solution is boring for the fans. But Derek Anderson doesn't fight that way. And so if you're thinking that Derek Anderson's just going to stand in the center in the center of the cage and wait for MVP to come to him, Derek Anderson doesn't have that bone in his body at all. He's going to chase after him.

He's long. He's lanky as well. He's going to try to put some hands on him. He's that kid that if you hit me, I'm going to hit you back two or three more times. And the other thing as well as Derek Henderson will wrestle. He will try and knock your head off, but he also will wrestle. He'll try and get after you with the wrestling as well as the knees and the elbows.

He'll do everything to win that fight. He's someone who lets the full game plan go out the door once you hit him. MVP doesn't do that, but it's a matter of whether he can stop Derek Anderson. Derek Anderson going up from 55, fighting at 170 now staying there at 170. He loves that. He feels better there. and he thinks, I think he's got a good chance of beating MVP. But I don't think the critics are going to be answered.

Not until he ends up fighting somebody like a Logan Storley or a Yaroslav Amosov and trying to beat one of those guys or Austin Vanderford or maybe even a Fabian Edwards. You know, or a Castella Van Sienis. Like I said, Castella Van Stenis, or sorry, Cicill and Fabian are in the way possible. Sorry. But, you know, fighting is some sort of a top wrestler. That's kind of, I think, what the fans are going to look to see is very, very much like how Connor was getting criticized

when he was fighting guys, then none of them had wrestled. You know, and that's kind of where AVP has put himself into, but the style that he has. The prelims are really good, too. We mentioned patchy mix. I know Lorenz Larkin isn't following Van Cines anymore,

but inserting Raphael Carvalio is really interesting. Yes. Raffian Stats versus Josh Hill is an awesome fight. Really looking forward to that one. I was thinking the same thing. Absolutely stuff. Absolutely stunned. That fight didn't make it on the main card. Such a good fight. I don't really get a few more minutes, Josh, and I appreciate the time.

But just to touch on a couple of things real quick. I know you talked about it with John on your podcast. But how fun is Yuri Perashka? I mean, just good God. It's just so fun to watch. So I want to, like, this goes back to what we were talking about in the beginning, that there's fighters all around in every organization that are top dogs. You know, Yuri came from Rising over there, you know, and he had some. some great performances over there. And now all of a sudden, after what, a couple of fights, now he's fighting for a title.

Michael Chandler was never considered to be any good. And he leaves Bellator, now he's fighting for a UFC title. They're everywhere. That's what I'm trying to encourage for all the fans. I put a lot of pressure on the media because it's the media's job. You know, you, it's your job, too. But it's the media's job. It really is.

Not just to cover the UFC 24 hours a day. It's the media's job to cover. the sport of MMA. And now that we've got a consistent schedule, not just Bellator, but PFL and one, we should be expecting as MMA fans to see the media covering all of these events equally as much as they cover the other ones. Now, don't get me wrong. The U.S.C.'s got 600-something fighters on their roster. There's a lot to talk about in all times. I get that. I understand that. You know, but I feel like the shows itself, whether it's Bellator or PFL, they don't get any public, they don't get any media up until the week of the event. Well, by then, the, the, the,

The fans have all made plans, you know, and so it's hard to get them to sit at home and watch, you know, that night, not knowing if, like, hey, there was an event because the media hasn't done their job. And I'm not here to pick on you. I'm not here to pick on you. Okay. I just, but that's a big reason why I started, I started my podcast is I really want to make sure that the fans understands which fights are out there to watch, you know, they, they can be missing barbers. You know, we've seen some phenomenal fights, not just in Bellator and the PFL. And then, you know, Eddie Alvers's fight last week was absolutely. insane. The fight was crazy, you know, and to see Rory McDonnell do what he does, go out there

and dominate a fight like he did in the PFL. Think about this, how much pressure there is to go from another big organization and then headline your first fight again in another organization. There's a lot of pressure and money that comes with that. And Rory just continues to rise to the occasion. What a savage he is. And so I just think there's a lot of credit that needs to be due to a lot of these athletes. And I want to, I'm out here to go out there and do it for him, make sure that all these athletes are getting the publicity they deserve. You know, but I put a lot of it on the media. We've got to talk about these athletes.

We've got to let everyone know which fights to look forward to, especially like in the prelands, like Stoughton Hill. Are you kidding me? Are you effing kidding me? I mean, I'm getting that fight. I'm getting that fight and that is for free. I mean, come on. You got to be kidding me.

That fight's going to be a bar and burner. You know, Patchy Mix is like, patchy mix is amazing. Just watching him grapple. It's just, it's nasty. It's so good. It's crazy to think how good he is. You know, there's tons of other fights on the prelands

that people should be tuning in on this. Friday night in Showtime. Here's just a little low-key one for you, ladies and gentlemen. Henry Corrales versus Johnny Campbell. Johnny Campbell, if you remember, his last fight, dude's ear almost got ripped off his head. Yeah. Back like six months later.

And Henry Corrales is the junkyard dog. I mean, let me, let's want to remind people. He got his two, you got his front teeth knocked out during one of his fights, and he just kept fighting. Didn't even bother. So, like, he's the savage, man. This guy will be there, and he'll be there throughout the whole fight, and he likes to lay down the hands.

I want to remind everyone how he stood toe-to-to-to-to with Aaron Pico. Aaron Pico dropped him. He got back up and knocked her and Pico out. They stood toe-to-to-to-and just went down. It was insane to watch that fight. And he's done that on countless occasions. You know, he's fought guys like Patricio. He's fought other top guys, you know, in the weight class.

He fought Mayo Sanchez. He fought all the best guys in this weight class. He maybe came up a little bit short, but he's fought all of them, and he's been in there with them all, and he's actually took a lot of them to the distance. You know, he fought one art or two out of the distance. And they had some great fights. And so there's spicy to be had on this prelim if you guys are tuning in.

I believe the prelims are on YouTube, Bellator's YouTube. You guys can tune in there for all their prelims there. And you can also watch Showtime as well for the main card. So one last thing before we let you go, I know one of the topics you guys talked about on your podcast got a lot of buzz. It was about the whole Diego Sanchez situation, the release from the UFC and, you know, talking about how that all went down. And, you know, the whole thing is medical history and the email. and, you know, this should be, you know, a check in the box, one of the many for fighters to come together.

But you also mentioned, like, getting an insurance fund for the fighters. And when I, when I watched the clip and when I read the thing on social media, I couldn't help but go back to an article my colleague wrote about Spencer Fisher and what his life has been like since he left fighting and thought about that whole situation. And, you know, talking to my colleague, he thought the main purpose of him putting that out there was for things like that to happen, was for there to have insurance is put in places for these fighters after their career is over once the final bell has rung for them. So I'm curious, do you see a time in the near future that something like this can

and will even happen? Well, before I say that, like, I want to make sure that there's a little clarity on like my comments. Sure. Look, I said we were talking, everyone, all these fighters, all these former fighters, all the ones that are kind of like getting ready to retire or they're they're all talking about the all the act the all the act doesn't do shit it doesn't do anything for you like that's the thing sure the top guys can make more money but most of these guys that were complaining they weren't top guys and if they were

they weren't there very long and so and then some of them were even world champions than ones that were complaining so the all the act doesn't do crap for you and so when it comes down to it let's talk about the things that are going to help benefit these fighters lives after fighting let's get them insurance Let's get some sort of medical fund for them to make sure that they're taking care of beyond that. Look, the money is the money. They knew what they were getting themselves into when it came to the money when they started fighting. They knew it. So, like, to say that they weren't going to make a lot of these fighters, they've never seen 25 grand or 50 grand or 100 grand,

and they're probably never going to see it again after they're done fighting. But the thing is, though, is that that's not going to be their main concern is the money. They can find a job doing something. But it's a matter of whether they have medical insurance to help cover themselves. so they're not in debt for the rest of their life. So that's the one concern that I have for fighters. People want to talk about all the other stuff. No, we all knew what we signed ourselves up to it.

I'm not saying that it's right. I'm not saying that we don't deserve more. I'm not saying that at all. I think we do, okay, not just myself. I'm thinking all the other fighters that have ever fought before me, they all deserve it as well. The thing is, though, is let's start with baby steps. You know, whatever you think the percentage is that fighters are getting now,

I believe it's like 16 or 17 percent. of this i'm not just talking about the i'm they're talking about the ufc so let's just use the ufc as an example is they're getting like 16 i think is what it is sure let's up that percentage now maybe to 20 let's start in baby steps how about that and let's first when we up that money let's start talking about the insurance program that's the thing that needs to happen let's put the insurance in place and let's go with the baby steps in terms of upping the percentage of which the fighters get eventually you'll get yourself up to say 35 40 percent somewhere in there and by then, that's kind of an even playing field.

The promotion's got to make the money also to help promote you guys and make you guys stars. You start talking about just the Ali Act. The Allie Act's not even a start. It doesn't do anything. It makes the top talent. It makes them more money. The lower talent guys, they don't make any more money. So I don't know what, I don't understand what the big focus is on the Allie Act more so

than helping to take care of the fighters that are done with their career. You know, the ones that have had that are suffering from CTE or the ones that have, have other issues. You had Tim Sylvia. He had the plate in his forearm now and it's like, I guess, apparently Rustin's having some problems with it or whatever it is and needs to have that surgery. The UFC ain't going to pick up his phone call. So that's my point. My point is let's talk about helping those athletes. Like I've got a plate in my ankle, you know, from training and from fighting, you know, those type of things. I need to have that plate eventually probably removed someday so I don't end up like Tim Sylvia's forearm. You know, I have my own insurance. I pay for my own

insurance. But I've been blessed enough to make sure I've made financial decisions properly. I made really good money throughout my career. That's not for every fighter. And so we need to think in terms of what can we do to help their life be better, you know? And so what can we do? And that the number one thing we can do is make sure that they have a way to make, to have some sort of health insurance that can take care of them the best that we can. And then the other money stuff, worry about that stuff. I get, not I won't say later, but let's try to like slow play that a little bit. Let's say, hey, if it goes from 16% to 19%, and then a couple of years, we're going to negotiate up to 22%, or we'll figure out more numbers or different fees,

and see exactly where the money is in different levels. You can't just automatically say 50%. I'm sorry, you're going to put the promotion out of business, you know, and then no one's going to have anywhere to fight. So they've got to find a way to work together, but do I think a union's going to happen? Absolutely not. I agree. That's the hardest part, and that's the thing that's the thing that upsets me the most. You want to know why? Because the ones are the top, never think it's going to happen to them. But I want to remind those people that are at the top, okay? Look at all the NFL players and the basketball players that have made hundreds of millions of dollars and are broke.

Mike Tyson broke. Okay, the reason why is because they didn't make good decisions even when they were at the top. Okay, it doesn't last forever. So one day you may need to come back and ask for that handout that you don't think you're going to need to ask for now. You're going to be kicking yourself in the ass and you didn't stand up when you could have and made a difference. And that's what I think a lot of people don't see. you know, and I've seen fighters step on each other, all left and right just get to the top. And when they get to the top, they don't know what to do with it.

And then they all flop back down and out at the bottom looking up going, man, that used to be me. And so it's frustrating to see the talent do that to each other. But I'm just speaking honestly. I speak from the heart. I, you know, I wear my heart on my sleeve. And I've always been this way. And people don't like it. And that's why I've always been kind of called the punk.

I speak the reality of life. And it's hard for people to understand that. And I've seen it too many times. from way back in the day to I'm seeing it now, it's even worse now because the fighters are making more money at the top now. And so it's more of like, no, no, I don't going to worry about those down there or those people down there. You know, but at one time, that was them.

And so it's frustrating to see. But I hope, I hope that if they do start a union, and I would love for them to start a union, but that the first thing to be on the docket would be insurance. Not so much what fighters' purses are, but insurance. Let's start with that first to help take care of our athletes. If you really care about athletes, money doesn't always take care of athletes. The insurance will help do that.

Well said. And I hope like if we revisit this like three years down the road and we're like, oh, how far have we come since our last, you know, since that first conversation, hopefully we've made some strides, like the baby steps. I think that's a good way to look at it and approach it. Well, sadly, I believe we'll start going to be right where we're talking. Yeah. Hate to be the day. I agree with you.

It takes a leader. It takes a couple. If you tell me, I'm telling you right now. If you were to say, who are the top guys right now in the sport? Let's say, let's, let's, let's, I always say, like, for the UFC, because everyone's talking about the UFC and they're the ones doing it because, you know, they're, they're considered the number one company right now. If I took, if I took, you know, you took like a Max Holloway and you took,

you took, you took Amanda Nunes, and you took, who's their, who's their heavyweight champ? Franzigano. You took Francis Angano or you took John Jones and you, and whoever else is there. You know what I mean? You take, you take a couple of their champions or a couple of their champions or a couple of their big money makers. You take Nate Diaz, you take Connor McGregor, and they start their own, they're like, hey, let's start a fighter's union, you know, whether it's just for the UFC or for the sport in general, I would almost guarantee that it won't be long if those fighters all said,

hey, we're not going to fight. We're champions. We're not going to fight for a year. That the UFC's going to lose a lot of, they're going to lose a lot of leeway on how they handle things. Because if they say, I'm not, if the UFC is to go to their, to go to ESPN and say, we're not having any title fights for a year because all of our champions are refusing to fight because they don't have a union, they're going to get blown away. How much bad press would that have have? It would only take one year.

It wouldn't even take a full year, I don't think. If every champion said, I'm not fighting until we get some sort of medical insurance to cover us beyond fighting or some sort of union to at least establish some sort of fund that goes into this. I don't think it'd be a year. I think ESPA would say, hey,

we are guaranteed a certain amount of title fights, you know, on our network. And if they can't produce, that's going to change. That's one way of looking at, but it takes leaders to do that. I don't know if you have any in that, then we'll do it.

Yeah, that's always the, it seems like every time, like something comes up that leads to that conversation, I feel like we're just going backwards. You know what I mean? Like we get to this point, and even like a few years ago,

we had all these different groups together and we thought something was going to happen, and then they just diminish and fall off the face of the earth. Well, everybody has, everyone, everyone likes to be upset about things, but no one wants to give solutions.

You know, at least kick solutions off to each other, at least talk to each other and say, hey, this is what I think may work. If it doesn't work, then, like, let's try to find another avenue. But everybody wants to just criticize everybody else. No, I think the fighters need to sit down with each other a couple and just talk about it and hash it out and start maybe trying to make it go public

or talk with each other and say, what can we do to make this happen? You got to have solutions. Everyone wants to cry about it. They want to get on Twitter. They think people on Twitter care. They don't care. Like getting on Twitter, getting on Facebook and all these other social media platforms.

And every day, griping about your complaints is not going to make things better. Come up with solutions. Give me a solution and then try to work it from there. That's annoying. What? You're a muffler. You don't hear it? Oh, I don't even notice it.

I usually drown it out with the radio. How's this? Oh, yeah? Way better. Save on insurance by switching to Bel Air Direct and use the money to fix your car. Bell Air Direct, insurance, simplified. Conditions apply. Great stuff from the punk.

Josh Thompson, seriously, I could talk to that guy for six hours. And it would seem like six minutes. Just really enjoy that conversation. Hopefully, maybe we could do something else while we're out of Mohegan. But he needs to become a regular on this show. Maybe once a month. So much information. Very excited for Bellator 258 on Friday.

But let us move ahead to T.J. Brown and discuss his really entertaining fight with Kai Kamaka this past Saturday at UFC Vegas 25. All right, let us say hello to a gentleman who picked up his first UFC win on Saturday, a split decision win over Kai Kamaka at UFC Vegas 25, a highly entertaining boat, and that's probably underselling it. TJ Brown joins us right now. TJ, how are you? Man, I'm great, dude.

I just got done to enjoy a lunch with my family. So, man, I'm in a good place right now. I got a full belly. I got my first UFC win, man. It's life's good right now. So obviously there's a lot to discuss with you, TJ, but like we just talked about, your first UFC win is officially in the books. However, it has been a little bit mired in controversy, but before we get into all that, just off the bat, like, how does it all feel? Like, does it feel like a little less sweet because of the controversy around it?

Man, for me, I've just been on cloud nine, you know. I know what I did, you know, I trained my tail-off. for about 10 weeks in a fire camp. I went in there and fought my heart out, gave it all I had. And I got the W, man. I've heard some controversy, some back and forth stuff. And I really heard some ungrateful fans.

It's like, man, I just don't understand why people can't just take time to appreciate that me and another man put our bodies on the line, fought our heart out, and gave you such a great feeling, such a great fight, you know, and then for people to be so, to talk bad about me or Kai or anything, it's just, it's just amazing to me how grateful, ungrateful some people are. I don't know why people would even go after you or Kai or anybody. Like, whether you scored it for, whether people scored it for you or scored it for him. It's not your fault.

Like, you guys put on the fight. If you have somebody to blame, you blame the judges. Exactly. So we'll get back to the fight in the moment, but you mentioned the hard work you put in for the fight because, I mean, it showed. It was such a great battle between the two of you guys. But one thing that was quite noticeable through the build to this one is that you were under the tutelage of James Krause. So I'm curious how that all came to be. Yeah, so I've talked to, first of all, I've been seeing a lot of success at Gloria M.R.

And what James has done with this program over there for years now. and I took notice to that. So a few months back, I talked to my manager, Jason House. I was like, hey, man, I really like this team. I want to go down there for a week. Just try it out, you know, see if it's a good fit, you know. And I went down there, and I was just so overly impressed with those guys. I was like, I've definitely got to do my next flight camp there.

So when I got my contract for that fight, I went down there. I spent about six to seven weeks out of that. about nine-week camp there. And, man, it was just a great experience being able to train with all those, those guys and just really learned James's system. And it did a lot, it did a lot for me as a fighter and a person, you know. A lot of people that I've talked to that work with James, they describe him as a cheat code because he has a great sense for game planning.

And then if the game plan does a work, he has a great sense for making adjustments in the middle of a fight. He has this, like, uncanny ability to see things. things before they happen. So working with him, getting ready for the fights, one thing, but what was your impression being in the octagon with James in your corner? It was amazing, you know, not just in the fights, you know, like leading up to the fight. He has the ability to have me feeling confident in myself, just feeling that I can perform at the best of my abilities. And that's what it's about, you know, a lot of times we get caught

up and, I got to win this, I got to win this, this, and that. I got to just worry about the result. And reality is, to perform your best, you know, you need to just be worried about the, the small things and the process in which it takes, you know, instead of getting caught up in the result, worry about the small things you need to be doing right, worry about what you need to do to put on your best performances. And, man, leading up to the fight, you know, he's a game changer. And then in the fight, like, man, you know, he's very vocal. It's almost like he's in there playing a video game with me, you know, like I'm the character in the game. He's just over there pressing the buttons.

You know, it's like, he's really been a great addition to my team. And there would be no doubt that I would be going there for the rest of my fight canems. It was very clear you were in tremendous physical condition in that octagon. And while your striking, like, wasn't bad per se. It wasn't typically like your bread and butter in the fights, but your striking looks sensational on Saturday. Like a lot of people looked at this fight on paper as like a striker versus wrestler kind of a matchup, but this played out on the feet pretty much the majority of the time. So how, I guess,

satisfying was it for you to show such an improved version of your striking? Or maybe that was always there and just wasn't, you know, as visible to everybody. Yeah. That's really what more was, man. There's just, there's so much people haven't seen, you know, I want so bad to have the performance to people can see really how good I am. And, you know, my first U.S. fights, I really just wasn't able to show who I am. And man, you look at that last fight, like,

although I showed some incredible dog and what people think I had such improved boxing, man, I've been boxing, I've boxed before I did MMA, like, my striking's always been good. I just got to show you all glimpse of how good my striking is, you know, and

I've got so much more to show, you know, and I think with James Kraus in my corner and talking of a sports psychologist, you're just going to see more better and better fights out of me and better performances as I grow. When did you start seeing a sports psychologist? Just this last camp. And how much of a difference has that made for you?

I think it made a big difference, you know. She's taught me things that don't just apply to fighting, but also to my life. It's just helped me grow as an individual and just help me get in that zone a bit easier and just it deal with the anxiety. It's just, it's been great for me. And it's taught me a lot of things. It's taught me things that I can help teach my son. Like, it's just, it's been a, it's been a great, great change.

Being able to see shots coming your way, that, that looks like it vastly improved, too. Like, your striking defense, you're able to slip a lot of different things. And I thought your durability overall looked, look really good, too. Is that something that you notice as well? Yeah, I think, I thank you for saying that. I really appreciate it. Again, that's just one of those things where I was just finally able to show everybody. Like, that's been good.

Like, man, if you guys that have been trying to move for years, they know how good my head movement is and my boxing. You know, it's just I just haven't been able to show you guys, you know. I'm proud I was able to show a little deeper side of me this fight. You know, but, man, there's more of me that you haven't seen. So I'm excited to show more. So, and I mentioned this to other people, too. When I watch these fight night cards, I watch them on ESPN Plus. and we never get to see conversations in the corner.

And when James Krause is coaching, like, I want to hear what this man is saying between rounds. And we've seen some of his speeches go viral, especially the Grant Dawson one before he got his finish. Did he say, was there any sort of thing that stuck out to you, any sort of instruction in the corner that maybe we missed that stuck out to you? Well, what important thing he did is going into the second into the third. You know, of course we're both tired,

but he had the ability to grab my attention and me focus in and him give instruction. You know, the way he's able to bring people in in the most crazy, adrenaline high time to be able to get you to focus in and give you direct instructions that you can comprehend in that moment and then go in and apply. I mean, that's something special. That's something you see some of the highest lower coach is not able to implement. And it goes back to show you that the amount of, faith I have in him as the coach that I can trust him in those dire moments.

So the fight was amazing. The second round was crazy because you hurt him and then he hurt you and it was just this really crazy fight for 15 minutes. So before we get to like what happened after the fact, when it was over, did you and James feel confident that this was going to go your way? You know, to be honest, I knew in my heart that I had fought and give everything I had. You know, that's one thing I knew for sure. I was I was, let me I'm going to try to phrase this the best way I can't.

I thought it could have went either way at that point. You know, I was not a hundred percent confident we got to win. I thought I won two out of the three rounds for sure, but I knew it could have went either way, you know, and, but like I said,

I knew I had fought my heart out and get everything I could, and that's all you can do at the end of the day. Were you feeling confident that a bonus was going to come your way because everybody loved the fight? Oh my God. I feel like I got robbed, man. You know, I was so pumped up, you know, that I was fixing to get this 50 Gs, you know, like my manager thought I was, my coach. Everybody was like, man, it's in the bag.

And I didn't get it. Yeah, did you watch the main event? Did you kind of? Yeah, yeah, it was cool. Elbow was cool, but they didn't fight as hard as we did. So you thought you should have got over the main event? Yeah, man, for sure. We fought like dogs in there, man.

You did. That first round between Parshka and Reyes was just, I still can't believe what I saw. But, yeah, you had the longevity. I'll give you that. Have you watched the fight again since Saturday? Yeah, you know, I wanted to go back and try to give a better opinion, a more unab biased opinion and just kind of watch it as a whole. And just so I could have a better opinion.

Because when you're in there, you know, you may be seeing it one way, but, yeah, I've rewatched it. And I believe I won, you know, I believe I won. I believe, you look at the stats, I was struck him, you know, and I had more submission attempts, I had a takedown. I don't know, man. I hate this is happening, you know. I went there and fought my heart out now.

It's like it's a big controversial deal. It's crazy. So it takes some of the steam out of it. Yeah, man. It's like, I don't know. It's crazy. I mean, I think you said it best, though. You went in there, you gave it everything you had, and win or lose,

I think even if the split went his way, I still think you'd probably, do you think you'd feel better? Like, do you think you'd feel better if there's no controversy? Hell no. I'm glad I won. I thought I won, man. So I definitely,

I don't know. I'm sure you saw this by now, but it appears that Kai Kamak and his team are going to appeal this decision. They are all aware, as if everybody else listening right now, that the chance of this being overturned is pretty much zero. But how did you react to this? What caught my attention is, you know, I'm a man.

I teach my son and myself to have good sportsmanship and to be set a good example. After that fight, Win or lose, his coach is up in arms, runs out the cage, throws the fit, didn't even shake my hand. You know, like, that shows a lot about him. You know, I've always been taught win or lose. you dust yourself off as a man and he show respect to your opponent as coaches. And he didn't come over and shake my hand and nothing. So that was a bit disrespectful, in my opinion, you know, win or lose. And you're not setting a good example for your athletes or your team by showing that bit of sportsmanship.

How disappointing was that? Because, you know, this was like a classic coaching battle. People were excited to get Eric Nixick versus James Krauss. People were fired up to see how disappointing was that? How disappointing was that? It was a bit, you know, because he's talked to me before, like, and being cordial with me. And Kyle was super nice. Like, dude, he had a conversation afterwards.

I showed him my love, you know, because I respect a man that were going there with me like that and fight like a dog. Like, dude, like, I got mad respect for him, like, regardless. So I just, I hate seeing things like that. It doesn't have a good example for other people either. At the end of the day, you get the win, and that's great. and I'm sure your son was quite thrilled that his dad got his first UFC win. What was that like speaking with him after your first Octagon win? Oh, dude, he was pumped, man.

He said he was super nervous, like, but he was pumped. My mom and grandparents had a heart attack, you know, so it was crazy. But, man, he's pumped, and I'm pumped it. We're going to spend this week me and him really spending some quality time together, you know. It's very long overdue, and, man, it's just nice to unwind. this week. Yeah, that's a, how old is he now? Nine. Oh, my God, man. I feel like, I feel like I talked to you like a, he's grew up with this like, you know? I remember the last time I talked to he was, he was a little guy and now he's nine. Oh my God. Mine's eight now.

Oh, what I have to look, man? What do I have to look forward to nine? Is nine better than eight? Ah, man, mine had a huge gross work here recently, but man, he's starting to get a little more sassy. but he's a good kid my kid I picked him up from school and I was like oh how was your day goes yeah it was good

and I could tell something was wrong and I'm like what happened he goes I got you know I was talking to a to a kid and I told you know they were talking about cats and I said cats suck and I got in trouble I was like what

you're eight you're eight oh fatherhood man yeah fatherhood and fighting I you're a madman tj i'm curious would you run it back with kai like just for the purpose of like okay you you know all these people thought you won let me just prove it to you i'm the better man let's look no doubt i'm not i'm not against things like that you know uh again i've got nothing respect for him so i mean it i would i would take the fights you know uh i need to let my brain

rest for a little bit did my uh my head's been hurting pretty good so i let my my body brain rest for a while but for sure I would give them that fight again do you know I'm down for whatever you know I'd like to start making my my way up the the rankings you know but yeah I'd be down to fighting again I know you just fought on Saturday but is there are you kind of like looking at the calendar right now yeah yeah so we've looked at the calendar you know I need to let get a little rest from the sparring for a bit but yeah we've got some people in mind we're looking at and we're trying to look at some dates right now. So, yeah, we're in the works, man.

We're always working. Really appreciate T.J. Brown. Listen, I feel for the guy. It's not his fault that the fight was scored the way he was scored. It's not Kaikamaka's fault with how that fight was scored. They went out there. They had a banger. We won that fight.

We won it. No matter what the judges say, we won. Because that fight ruled. So no doubt about it. it is what it is tj brown gets the win the decision is not going to get overturned you can't argue with his reasoning as to why he feel like he won the fight you can score it however you want but if you're going on social media and beating up t j brown for that just not smart you have problems with the judges go right ahead but you can't have a problem with t j brown for going out there and

fighting and the judge has given him the decision has nothing to do with him He performed well. That's it. He's on to the next one. But we're getting ready to wrap things up. Just wanted to throw this up there. I'm very excited for this. This Thursday, 6 p.m. Eastern, a very special episode of Between the Links is going down live.

The 50th episode of BTL. And this is going to be fun because normally we bring two people on the show. They battle it out the entire time. this week, six competitors locked and loaded for a gauntlet style matchup. The champion Jedmishu will have five challengers. It's going to be like the Royal Rumble. Six people. We're going to draw numbers between one and six.

It's going to start with one and two. Whoever comes out of that round moves on to face number three, so forth and so on, until there is one. I cannot freaking wait for that show on Thursday. But a big shout out to all you guys and gals for checking out the program. This week. Big thank you to Casey on the production. Jose and Cool Alex on the social media and the graphics. Have a heck of a week, everybody.

We'll finish the program with my chat with Shane Burgos. With Instacart, you get groceries that over-deliver so you can over-share your preferences. Want russet potatoes with no brown spots? You got it. Want turnips that look light but feel heavy? Easy. Want honey crisp apples that are firm green and definitely not Macintosh like last year when you lost the fall bake-off to perfect Penelope Johnson. Okay.

A bit too. am I, but we're here for it. So download the app today and get zero delivery fees on your first three orders. Instacart, groceries that over deliver. Service fees exclusions and terms apply. All right. Shane Burgos joins us. He returns to action at UFC 262, May 15th in Houston, taking on Edson Barbosa. And this is a fight everybody has circled on their fight cards right now.

Shane, how are you, man? I'm good, man. Thanks for having me on. So no one got to really see it because you went in the bathroom and you slicked it back a little bit. but that hair, man, is unbelievable right now. What's going on? I just been growing it out for me. My hair grows so damn slow.

Let me just see how long it takes me grow out. And I shave the sides, but I keep the front and the back going long. And it's been like two years, and it's barely down my shoulders. Like, it takes forever my hair to grow. That's two years worth? Yeah, basically. Two and a half, almost. Well, first things first, we saw that another member of the Burgos clan was welcome to the world recently.

When did that all happen? Tuesday, last Tuesday. Wow. She's a week old tomorrow. Yeah, my daughter, my second daughter came, Grace. So, I mean, you're a top 10 guy at 145. You got a guy like Getson Barbosa standing across from you in less than two weeks. There's plenty of motivation there already, but I'm sure this new addition puts it over the top even more having a new baby in the house, right?

100%. I mean, you can't even put that into words. Yeah, I'm not just fighting for myself. I mean, I've had my first daughter. She's four years old now. but so I'm always fighting for her, but now to have two miles to feed and a wife. Yeah,

man, it's everything I do is for my family. You're outnumbered now, three to one. Yeah, and I have a girl cat too. A four to one. So,

man, this is a fun fight coming up in Houston, Shane. Like, I'm sure when the contract came and you saw Edson Barbosa's name on the other side of it, this one probably checked off all the boxes for you,

right? Absolutely. It's one of those fights that I was like, yes. Coming off that fight with, I only want guys that are, exciting like this and uh and again killers like edson and and and those kind of fights excite me they wake me up in the morning they can get my ass out of bed and get my ass in the

treadmill and get to the gym these these are the fights that i live for because i'm a huge fan of the sport everybody knows i'm obsessed with this sport um this is one of those fights on paper it can it can you play that's fight a hundred times it'll never be born on paper it's never going to be born just period it's going to live up to all the hype i know coming out of the emmette fight we spoke like a couple days after it was mostly about the rankings and how that all played out and you weren't too thrilled about that. But one of the things that you were kind of pondering was like when you might be able to come back because you said that you were willing to take as much time as needed because you weren't sure what kind of, you know, lingering injuries.

I know you're going to get checked out and all these different things. You know, was there anything that that you were able to discover after that fight or were you all good? No, I was all good. Honestly, that was such a, such a, it was a war. And I came out of it basically unscathed. My hands actually didn't even hurt that bad. Usually after every fight, my hands are always soar shit. But I was good after that fight. I took a month off of sparring just because obviously it was a hard fight. Didn't want to get hit the head right after fighting. And I had a little cut under my eye. But other than that, that was good. So with everything going on with your wife being pregnant and everything, the extra time off, I'm sure that was just fine with you.

To an extent, I was supposed to fight in January against Hakeem and that fight fell through. So, I mean, I wish that fight would have still went on. But everything happens for a reason. And I was going into that fight, very compromised. I started that camp off with COVID and getting over that, literally started, got word of the fight being moved to, it was supposed to be in December, it got moved to January, and I got COVID as soon as I found out, I was like, you've got to be fucking kidding me. So as soon as I got over COVID, I had to jump right into a fight camp, had a bunch of little injuries that were just nagging and annoying as fuck. So when he got hurt and he had to pull out, I was like, you know what, everything happens for a reason. And this,

this is, this is, this was supposed to happen. And how you get Edson Barbosa? Obviously, a long career at 155 before he made the drop. He had the fight with Danny Gaye. Lost a split decision, but a lot of people thought he won that fight, and then he gets the win over MacWanamir-Khani. And so far, he's looked pretty darn good down there at 145. And I know, like you said, you're obsessed of the sport. You watch everything.

So what have you made of his move to 145 thus far? Yeah, he does look pretty good at 145. I can't lie, but he's looked good at 55, too. So I think he's a great opponent. I think he's a great test. Like I said, it's one of those fights that just gets me super excited. It's a guy that I know I have to bring my Ake and out of my beat. game, not my A minus game. I got to come with the best

Chamburgos possible, and that's exactly what I plan on doing. So kind of going back to the rankings, after the MFite, I think you dropped like five spots to like number 14, and I think it's wild that, you know, you jumped up five more spots without even having to fight again. You're up to number nine.

These rankings, like they're so wild, man. I don't make the rules, but I was like, all right, I'll take it. I mean, I don't know, man. It's fucking, it's weird. It's really weird. but I guess it worked out in the long run for me. I mean, I haven't fought since my last fight, and my ranking's been moving constantly,

but it's been going back to normal now. So, I mean, I feel like at nine is a good spot for me. I think that's a well-respective spot. I would agree with that. How excited you to get back to the fans? Because, I mean, the Emmett fight, man, was, I mean, it was the empty arena, and it was super fun.

But we saw how rowdy the crowd was in Jacksonville, and I assume Houston will be bringing the ruckus as well. You must be just beside yourself. Then not only do you get to fight Ed's, and you get to do in front of 17,000 people. Exactly. Like the fight with me and me and Josh that deserved the crowd. That deserved the big crowd. And the crowd got robbed of that. But now to get this one, this is a fucking barn burner. And this is one of those fights that. This deserves a crowd. And it's getting a full crowd, 17,000 fans in the arena. I can't wait to just make that walk and to feel that energy because I didn't realize how much I missed that. But even like the Wayans show, just when you're flexing on the scale and everybody's screaming in your name and screaming for you. And then you do the face off and your blood's pumping. And you can just feel that electric energy in the air. I literally can't wait. to feel that again. And you get to fight on the same card as Nate Diaz against Leon Edwards and the vacant title

fight. It's pretty damn good card. Super pumped to be on the same card as Michael Chan. I'm a huge fan of that guy, too. What did you think of UFC 261? Because, I mean, the card was bananas, one of the most memorable events in UFC history. What were your biggest takeaways from watching that card a couple weeks ago? It was a phenomenal card from top to bottom. I watched every single fight on the card. Like I said, I'm a hardcore fan, so there's not one fight that I missed it. It was crazy how every fucking fight was awesome. Every fight in the main card was a finish.

It almost didn't even make sense. It was like this. It couldn't have won any better for the UFC for their first card back with the full arena. Not one fight fell out. I think everybody made weight, I think, right? Pretty sure, yeah. And it couldn't quickly too. No one fell out.

Everyone made weight. No COVID cases. Every single fight was amazing. It was everything I think the UFC wanted and more because every single fight lived up to the hype. It was awesome. What did you think of Usman's knockout? because one of the questions, people kind of like to compare him to GSP and see how close he is, but I think the more pertinent conversation, at least right now, is, you know, is he the best

fighter on the planet? Pound for pound. I mean, John Jones hasn't fought in a while. He's, Usman's active. He keeps winning. He keeps getting better and better. Do you feel like pound for pound Usman's the guy right now? Yeah, with Kibout too. I think you have to say, and I'm a big fan of Horst, so that was hard to see. But I'm a big fan of Usman, too. And to get a finish over Horace, hospital like that, that's a huge statement. It really is. Jorge over a full camp too. I think Jorge gave him this props too because I don't think anyone saw that coming like that. It was a beautiful setup on the punch. It was really nice. I got to give him this props on that because it's Jorge Mossadal. This dude's eating bombs

from the best guys in the world for years. And to put him out like that, that was super impressive. So at this moment right now, you've got to say Kamar Ushman's number one pound with Khabib being gone and John Jones not being active. But if Jones comes back and he wins to heavyweight title, then it's hard not to say Jones is number one again, you know what I mean? Yeah, if you beat Francis, I think that kind of puts you just process of elimination. Did you enjoy watching Yuri Perashka create all sorts of chaos on Saturday? That dude, it's just fun. He's, it's fun.

It really is. He's so intriguing and interesting as a outside the cage and then even inside the cage. It's almost like his personality translates into his fight style because he's interesting to watch. It's just, you don't really know what the hell is going to do. Like that elbow into the spinning elbow. It's like, this dude's fun. He's just such a wild man. Yeah.

People like to, people are comparing him to Tony Ferguson. Someone DM me the other day and said, I think he's a hybrid of Gaichi and Ferguson. Like he's got the, you know, the qualities of both of those guys. Like, I, it's just so wild. Do you kind of agree with the way people are comparing him? I do. That's actually a really good analogy. He does fight like Tony to an extent where he's coming forward and doing crazy shit and doesn't really seem like he gives a shit what his opponent's going to do.

or what his opponent is trying to do. He's just going to do what he wants to do the entire time. I love that. Well, now it is your turn to create chaos. May 15th. You're coming off that loss to Emmett, trying to defend your spot in the top 10. And featherweight is really interesting right now.

And I know we've talked in the past about how deep the division is, but now we're starting to see some of these guys that you were excited about from the outside making their way into the top 15. And I know that like every fight is your biggest fight. But considering what this division looks like right now, the man standing across from you in a big spot on pay-per-view, outside of the MMA cliche of it all, this is the biggest fight of your career, is it not?

100%. It's funny coming off a loss, which to get to this big of a fight off of a loss, it doesn't really happen much. So I feel like all the stars are aligned and everything's happened for a reason and I'm putting this position for a reason. I just had a baby girl.

I feel the stars are aligned. God put me here for a reason and I'm going to go out and do what I was put here to do. I'm going to get this win. Did you take a lot away from the Emmett fight that you can use more? Like, did you, were they learning? I mean, there's learning lessons every fight,

but, you know, having a fight like that and taking on a guy like that who ate shots and was landing some big shots of his own, did you take a lot away from that that will help you move forward? Yeah, more so mentally than physically. I think I had a little bit too much fun in that fight. It was, I got caught up in the fun of the fight

and maybe it was a good thing. The crowd wasn't there, or maybe, I don't know, maybe the crowd was there, I would have had better focus. I don't know, I just lost my focus a little bit and got caught up in the excitement of the fight because I knew how much fun it was,

it, it, there was, nobody there, there was nobody there, and it still felt like there were people screaming. And I mean, it was weird, how exciting it felt in the moment. And I got to just tone that back and stay disciplined. And that was the biggest thing I learned just to stay disciplined. Don't, don't feed into that. Like, stay true to myself. I don't need to go out there and fight like a crazy man every single time. I can be technical and be elusive. Going back to Saturday's card, we host a matchmaking show that we record on Sunday mornings and probably the most popular selection coming out of that event on Saturday,

from the listeners is that the winner of this fight between you and Edson Barboza should fight Giga Chacadezai after the win over Cub Swanson because he looked great. The Giga kick in the first round took almost a little over a minute to get it done. I'm sure you watched it. What did you make of Giga's performance? That was a beautiful kick, man. It looked like a round kick. Cub thought it was going to be a round kick.

The way he switches his hip into a front kick at the last second. It was a beautiful kick. You got to give that guy props and take Cubs Swanson out in a minute. That's a huge feather in his cap. So nothing but props for him to him for that because that was nice. Does that fight, I mean, you're focused on Barbosa right now. Does that fight interest you right now, or is he like a little too far back at this point? There's nobody that interests me right now besides Barbosa.

It would be, it would be negligent and immature for me to look past him. My focus is strictly on Barbosa right now. Anything after or before, it's Barbosa and Barbosa is, this is my world title fight. That's how I'm looking at it. It's my world title fight. It's a good way to look at it. So how do we get this thing done on May 15th? I know you're fired up.

I could see it. The focus is there. What can we expect to see in Houston in front of all those? fans. I'm getting my hand raised by any means necessary. Hoping on the plane the next day, getting back home to my wife and my kids. I can't fucking wait to just come back home and be dad again. But I just can't wait to feel that energy too, man. I get my hand raised in front of all. I got a bunch of friends and family coming out. So for them to be there to see me win again and come back and get this huge win, getting a win over Edson Barbosa, that means something.

You know what I mean? Everybody that's beating him has been a top contender. So I don't think I'm just going to win this fight. I think this is going to be my breakthrough performance right here. I don't know exactly how it's going to end. I'm not a fortune teller of that, but I feel like this is going to be my best performance. Who wins? Nate Diaz or Leon Edwards? I'm pulling for Nate, but it's hard to pick against Leon because he's been active. So I would pick Leon by decision, but I'm really hoping Nate wins. I know you're a big Chandler guy.

Do you think he walks out with the belt? I do. I do. I really believe in that guy, man. That's probably my favorite fighter when it comes to his mental game and his mental side. He's so intriguing to me. Like, anytime this dude has a podcast or interview, I have to listen to it. The dude, he should be like a motivational speaker or something. It's unreal. I'm like, yeah, I was listening to one of this podcast this morning, actually, on my way to training.

I was just like, damn, this is. He's the fucking man. He really is. We used to, I used to bring him on, like, in the old days of my podcast. He would come on and he'd have to give me a quote that everyone would have to remember for the week, like a mantra to live their life by and came through every time, just right off the top of his head. I say that I'm pulling for that dude hard. Have you met him before? I know I never met him.

I was supposed to be on the card with him for that last fight, the Margargarh card, but that fell through. But I think we'll be on the Houston together. I'm excited to meet him, talk to him, chop it up a little bit. There you go. Well, I see you're at the gym right now, Shane. I appreciate the time, man. Looking forward to this fight, the people's main event on May 15th,

UFC 262 against Edson Barbosa. Thank you for the time, as always, man. And all the best to you in the fight. Thank you, brother. Have it going. You too, man. You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network.