Modern Wisdom - #082 - Caleb Jones - How Does A Non-Monogamous Marriage Work?

Episode Date: June 20, 2019

Caleb Jones is an online coach, blogger and non-monogamy advocate. Statistically, most marriages end in divorce. This limited life span for the traditional approach to relationships has lead some people to seek an alternative setup. Today we hear from one of the most prominent figures in the non-monogamy movement as Caleb explains his relationship-rationale, we also discuss industry, weed legalisation and UK vs US politics. Extra Stuff: Check out Caleb's Website - https://calebjonesblog.com/ Follow Caleb on Twitter - https://twitter.com/TheCalebJones Check out everything I recommend from books to products and help support the podcast at no extra cost to you by shopping through this link - https://www.amazon.co.uk/shop/modernwisdom - Get in touch. Join the discussion with me and other like minded listeners in the episode comments on the MW YouTube Channel or message me... Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/ModernWisdomPodcast Email: https://www.chriswillx.com/contact Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hi friends, welcome back to the Modern Wisdom Podcast. My guest today is Caleb Jones. He is an online coach, a blogger, and a prominent figure in the non-monogamy scene. Now statistically, most marriages will end in divorce. It's a sad fact, but unfortunately one that's true, and this has caused many people to seek an alternative setup for their relationships. Hilariously, I'm actually away in Barcelona at a wedding at the moment. So I apologize to Andy, yes, this isn't a comment on how I think the future of your

relationships going to go, but Caleb is a superbly interesting guy. And this particular topic is nothing short of fascinating. I was, I wouldn't say triggered, but it brought up a lot of very visceral emotions, thinking about allowing someone you love to sleep with somebody else, and the discussion we have is quite nuanced. I'm really interested to hear what other people think, because I found it challenging to talk about it and talk about it and think about it in a very unique way. So I'm going to stop chatting shit and I'll let you listen to Caleb take it away. But yeah, I'd love to hear your thoughts, actress Will X on all social media,

but for now please welcome Caleb Jones I'm joined by Caleb Jones all the way from the other side of the Atlantic. How are you today? I'm good. How are you? Very good man. Very good, very glad to have you on. Lots of interesting stuff to speak about. You have got the largest tanker that you're drinking out of that I've ever seen. What is that? You know, I drink a lot of water and so I would have these little cups by my desk and it was never big enough, so I was like, I gotta get a fucking, you know, I gotta get a tank

or I gotta get something real. What does that, that's like, what, liter and a half? Are you guys gonna call it like a gallon? Yeah, probably liter and a half, you know, I got a good tanker. I could get something real. What does that, that's like a what, liter and a half, are you guys would call it like a gallon? Yeah, probably liter and a half, yeah, yeah, yeah, something, it just water. Be cool for this vodka, but it's not. Yeah, I like some mead. It's a big game of things.

Yeah, I don't drink. I've never been drunk in my entire life. So I just, it just thinks we look cool when I drink my water, I guess. That's an interesting lifestyle choice. Why did you choose to do that? You know, I don't have an answer for that question. I wish I had an answer. I wish I had some kind of cool story like, well, my parents wrote a

whole X and no, my parents were normal and here's my guess. So when I was in seventh grade, seventh grade, so I was about, yeah, about 12. I took one of the cans of beer out of my dad's refrigerator. And I took on the side of the house and took a little coffee cup and I filled it up and I promised myself I drink the whole beer because I want to get drunk because that's looks like a lot of fun. Yeah, and I went. And I made myself drink the whole beer and I went, oh this is terrible. I can't wait till I get drunk. I kept drinking and drinking and then nothing happened. I just felt dizzy for a few minutes.

And I think maybe that was it. Maybe I'm guessing. I'm also an INTJ for Myers-Briggs. Those Myers-Briggs personality types. Okay, yep. So I'm an INTJ and I'm an extreme INTJ. So my little dot is in the far upper corner. And the INTJ is in the far upper corner of the 16 personality types. So not only am I an INTJ, I'm an extreme version of an INTJ. And so one of the aspects of most INTJs, not all of them, is that I'm a control freak over myself,

but I don't want to control anybody else. So I'm thinking that this isn't conscious. It'll be subconsciously. I don't want to lose control of myself by getting drunk. I understand. I think it's easy. I don't know. That's a guess.

I really don't know. That's the same for my mom. I'm going to have to do it at some point. People like, you guys drunk once. All right, I'll get's easy. I don't know, that's a guess. I really don't know. That's the same for my money. I'm gonna have to do it at some point. People like you guys drunk once, sorry, I'll get drunk once. That's fine. It's a, so I'm nine months into 18 months sober, right? I'm a club promoter by trade, so I've run nightclubs

for 12 years, and that's been my trade. How many? You're nine months in? Nine months sober, yeah, but this is the, I've done six months twice, and I'm doing nine months now, just to see if I can My argument is that I work in the nightlife industry I've worked around about a thousand nights in my career across the last decade in a bit

so if I can do it other people can and on top of that as well Do you wait do you consider yourself an alcohol icon? No, no. So Ed Latimore, have you heard of Ed? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I'd podcasted with Ed and he synopsized alcohol and people's views of sobriety better than anyone I've ever heard before and it's this sentence. Alcohol is the only drug where if you don't do it, people assume you have a problem. Yes. No one's saying to you why you're not shooting up with heroin today. Why have you not got a massive line of cocaine on your desk behind you? But alcohol so ingrained into our society that people just say,

you're not drinking. You must have a problem with alcohol. That's the only reason that anyone would choose to go so. But whereas for me, I was a typical social drinker. Go out maybe once every four night, but I'm a club promoter drinker, right? So when you go out, you go hard. Like you know, it's straight arm inspirates in your mouth in a nightclub.

It's like, oh, that's sort of stuff. Yeah, exactly. And I just, about two and a bit years ago, I wanted to do more with my life. I wanted to have a lot of experiences, I wanted to travel more, I wanted to start this podcast, I wanted to push my business and my fitness and I wanted to develop a reading habit and a meditation habit and all these other things. And I looked at my time as if it was a set of accounts and saw that there was this big day and a half cost getting chopped

out of my fortnight period. One day hung over and then a half a day at maybe 50% capacity and then you finally get back onto it. So I honestly think it doesn't surprise me that you have a lot of ions in the fire considering you've never been knocked off with a hangover. Like the only time that you'll be like, that's if you're ill. Yeah, that's pretty much it. I've wondered about if I was a typical drinker or even a heavy drinker,

because I've got some of those guys in my family, where I would be today, I suppose, to where I am now, and also how I would look, how my skin, I'm 47, so how my skin would look now, because that's the best for 47. Well, I moisturize That's the key ladies and gentlemen moisturize early Yeah, my there's an old doctor who line the girl says you're 900 years old

Things like why moisturize My moisturize yeah, but I know I have buddies who are my age live known since high school who are you know not even big drinkers Just but regular drinkers and My god, you can see the difference. Even guys don't get a lot of sun like me. They still like, wow. Or smokers to smoking's the other one. Smoking and drinking has never smoked anything either.

I smoked some weed once for about three seconds. So I, okay, here you go, thanks. It's about it. So what I had to learn how to do was to drink wine. I'll sip wine because for what you're talking about, I would sit with a group of people, or even on a first date with a woman and They'd be drinking and I'd have nothing for my water Why don't you treat it they people get uncomfortable? Yeah, especially everyone else is drinking and you're not especially

Including if you're one-on-one they're drinking and you're not people hate that Why don't you drink it so I had to learn to find whatever the most pussy wine there was, which is reasling, I think. Okay, so I get a reasling, little girly wine, tastes almost like apple juice, and I would take a sip, and go, oh, good, he's drinking. Okay, good. Yeah, and then they start drinking. They don't notice that he's gone through, you've gone through like one glass in the time that someone else has gone through a bottle. Not even a glass. Yeah. Half a glass?

Yeah, I get you. That's glass for two hours. Yeah. But it looks like I'm drinking because it's sitting in front of me and it's less than what I got when I was served to me. Oh, good. Okay. He's drinking now. I can relax. Now that someone else is doing something I can relax, which is the exact opposite of my entire viewpoint of life. But that's like when things are we're communal creatures. We're mimetic creatures as my friend George and a previous host guest of the podcast would say, yeah, it's alcohol's a weird one, man, it triggers people in such bizarre ways.

You totally write this, like there's nothing else, like no one else is shooting a heroin or getting a tattoo or going like going paleo or riding their bike to work and saying, like, why are you not doing all of these things? People do. That's changing, you are you not doing all of these things? People do- That's changing, you know, in some parts of the world, especially in mine, I don't know about, I don't know about England, probably not,

but in my part of the world, so the Pacific Northwest United States, weed is becoming like that now. Oh, you don't smoke weed? People are kind of, they're starting to get surprised now because it's become so prevalent and it's legal in most parts of the United States now, and that may be not most.

A lot. Yes. So weed marijuana is starting to move in that parts of the United States now and that may be not most a lot. Yes. We Marijuana is starting to move in that zone of alcohol where people They don't think something's wrong with you don't smoke weed, but they are I've had people be surprised that you don't It's in this region. Do you think that that's partly because you're a blogger and author right? A one of those creative the types kind of probably pushing the boundaries You maybe sound like the sort of person that has that personality.

Probably, yeah, probably. Another aspect is that I'm a libertarian, so they just expect that that's part of the deal. Another one is people who know my lifestyle sexually, they go, I'm shocked you don't smoke weed. So maybe it's a lot of factors. That's a good point, maybe think of that. If you're sleeping with multiple women

and not holding down monogamous relationships, making a stand, presuming people presuming that you may be making a moral stand or some sort of virtue stand with regards to the alcohol or the weed, which it doesn't seem. Oh, I get that a lot. Yeah, it doesn't seem as the case. It's just a lifestyle choice.

The same way as some people don't like to wear blue or some people don't like to drive stick. Like this is just a lifestyle choice. Yeah. Oh, I've gotten that a lot. People assume that I'm Christian or or more men or something like that. Oh, you must be really religious. You don't drink. No, no. I'm not yeah. It's a religious societal programming. No. I believe in God, but I'm not religious. So no. So yeah, I've definitely gotten that. Yeah, that's just part of it's part of the culture. I've learned to accept. You have to learn to accept the odd's part of the culture. I've learned to accept You have to learn to accept the oddness of your culture or else you're gonna be pissed off all the time And I want to be happy so I can't do that tomorrow on a things bizarre because we're seeing

We're seeing a substance go from being heavily controlled to legalize for medical use, to like fragmented legalization across the states. In certain areas, it is still illegal, some it's legal for medicine, some it's totally legal recreationally. And we're observing the social conditioning change in front of our eyes.

Most Americans, I don't know about most, half, I forget the stats, they always change. Something like half or most of Americans are on something anyway, prescription drugs, things like that. Something like the majority, not the vast majority, but the majority of women over 35, over 35 or 40. Again, I forget the statistics are on some kind of mood altering drug. That's terrifying.

It gets really bad. So you're regardless. You're regardless of weed. You're regardless is not a word. My grammar teacher, regardless of weed, people are on drugs anyway. It's just it's part of our culture. Which one do you want to do? And it's getting worse. As societal, as Western society continues its slow collapse, you're going to see more and more people going in that direction. Anyway, finding something that'll make them not miserable. So it makes sense to me that more people will be smoking weed or prescription drugs. Heroin is a big epidemic now. At least the United States. Heroin's kind of crazy. Less four or five years gone nuts. There's a, I've seen it. There's some really interesting TV shows. So the UK, we get exposed to some of the stuff from America, but I think it's quite difficult for us to fact-check, not fact-check, but like a virtue check or integrity check, the content that we're being fed.

Because, like, I see stuff from Netflix that's like dope, which is a really cool Netflix documentary series, two seasons in, each episode is in a different US state, yet US city, and one film crew follows the cops, and one film crew follows the drug dealers, and you see how the two are trying to catch each other and how they play off against each other, they're all, well, the drug dealers have got masks on and stuff like that. It's honestly fascinating TV program for anyone in the UK that hasn't seen it yet.

I suggest that you go watch it now. But like stuff like that, I don't know how realistic or how dramatized that is, but they talk about this fentanyl crisis and they talk about like Zanex crisis and all this sort of stuff. And yeah, trying to judge it-jitsu from the UK, because we don't have the big pharma companies aren't allowed to advertise on TV. So that asks your doctor,

that all that stuff doesn't exist. Right, for us. I wouldn't do that. It's an epidemic, but it's not something you see out in the world. So you can go to a mall or walk down the street in the United States and you will not be able to tell the people are on whatever they're on or they're going to

take something later that evening, even with a lot of the heroin people, you really can't tell. So, but when you get to meet people and talk to people and get into their lives, you find out, oh my God, really holy crap. Just women alone, women I've seen last four or five years, the heroin thing is it's nothing like it was 10 years ago. It's a noticeable difference. And again, that could be regional. The nothing like it was 10 years ago. It's a noticeable difference. And again, that could be regional. The United States is such a big place. It's very hard to say in the United States, everything's low for you.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I live between Seattle and Portland. So in that area is what I experience when I'm not traveling. I travel a lot. So it's hard to say the United States. That's why I like these people who set a goal to like visit 100 countries.

I, my goal is based on cities because if you've been to Beijing, have you visited China? Yeah. No, you visited, if you went to New York, have you visited the United States? No, you visited New York. I'm kind of thinking. So, yeah, it is, it's, it's really interesting. And again, I just, this is, we talked about this earlier. I just not some of my interested anymore.

I just, I don't care. Yeah. How? So I totally understand the people's desire to escape feeling, feeling feelings is hard, right? Like some feelings really suck. Yeah, but I think it shows. That's why you have to learn to manage your emotional states.

That's why you have to learn emotional control. I states. That's why you have to learn emotional control I'm telling guys this all the time What's up? You don't risk that especially living today. You're gonna be screwed with the internet just with the internet alone Very hard to be happy if you can't manage your own emotions because every day you'll be pissed off about something You are constantly being triggered. You're right. It's interesting to see the difference between how and again this may be localized within my area or my social group in the UK, but certainly for me, if you were to say, tell me one person that you know that is on a mood-altering drug, I would actually struggle to be able to find

someone that I know. And I think what that shows is the natural way to deal with bad emotions can be dictated by what firstly, social, societal conditioning in your local peer group, other people around you in the US may be, oh, you feel bad, there's a vicar dine or you should just go see your doctor or whatever it might be. But on top of that, as well, obviously Obviously it's top down. It's being broadcast At you like you have a problem the solution is the solution is in a pill or a cream or a As you said that I just thought through my own head how many people I personally know on something I came up with six names I know a lot of people though. Yeah, so maybe I'm not a good example But I as I'm thinking I'm thinking of more or seven

People the number of people I personally know on something even if it not a good example. But as I'm thinking, I'm thinking of more or seven people, the number of people I personally don't on something, even if it's a prescription something. Yeah. So my point is that I think I wonder how many people who really need medication slipped through the net in the UK by not having this awareness about the fact that prescription drugs could help and how many people in the US are being oversold on things that they don't need because of this societal conditioning and because of this stuff here. Sure.

Well, that last aspect is most people who take these drugs. If you just did basic things like get eight hours of sleep, drink a lot more water, monitor your hormones, get your hormone test done, meditate a little bit, focus on something you like, have more sex, you just do those basic things. All of a sudden, a lot of these symptoms, not all of them, depends the person, would go away with no drugs. And these would actually enhance your life instead of causing side effects. But what I just said, those things, those are hard, that takes work. We'll go, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, Depression in general, so he looks at the standard model of depression that it's an imbalance of chemicals in the brain. Send that to me when we're done talking. I'm interested.

If you offer us a fantastic guy, I cannot. Yo Han, if you're listening, he does tune in sometimes. If you're listening, I'm going to continue hustling you to come on because I need you to speak to you, man. But it's fantastic book, really, really interesting. And he identifies nine biological causes of depression. book, really, really interesting. And he identifies nine biological causes of depression. Sorry, seven biological, seven environmental causes of depression, two biological. And the environmental ones are like, that makes sense to me, seven out of nine, that's about right. You have to about what I would expect. Yeah. And he talks about loss of connection to nature, loss of connection to a meaningful future, loss of connection to work, loss of connection to nature, loss of connection to a meaningful future, loss of connection to work, loss of connection to childhood trauma, all of these things. And it's a very comprehensive analysis of

people and it's very narrative-based. So again, for anyone who's listening who wants to enlighten themselves and make themselves a little bit better educated about why depression occurs, either in yourself or in the people that are around you. I can't recommend it. If the 80-20 book underpression for me, like just read it, super easy read, a little bit long, but super easy read, and you got it, man. But yeah, the way that people deal with it, they just think America appears to have... And it's bad, right?

Because it reflects on you guys as a nation. People see Americans as this quick fix, transactional transitory, like lazy people because of that culture, which isn't true in terms of the culture. It's just in terms of how people are dealing with things and it's historically has not been true. Historically Americans have been the hardest working people on earth. Historically. Right now we're changing Historically and there's a still a decent percentage of us who are not lazy, but that's all changing based on demographic factors and Economic factors and cultural factors and all kinds of things. What's changing? What do you think the trajectories going to store for you guys at the moment? For what moving forward with with that particular um, guess, line of sight for whether people are going

to continue, whether there's going to be something to change, does there need to be a big intervention? There needs to be what there won't be. Right. Where Americans are now set on their path, we peaked, I mean, I'm not a historian, but based on the stuff I read, I've heard a lot. America as a nation in relation to other nations peaked somewhere around the mid,

I believe the mid to late 1960s and since then we've been on kind of on the down slope especially if you compare us to other nations. Is that happiness? And that is, what's that? Is that happiness? That is one. Yeah.

It's economically positioned in the world our currency levels of happiness. So now you have depression, suicide has gone up, all this crazy stuff. That's all happened. In my lifetime, I was born in 1972. And so in my lifetime, I have seen my country, and most other countries in the Western world, too. I don't want to just pick on my country, but I live here, so I see it.

I have seen my country get worse in literally every aspect except for crime rates have gone way down and technology has improved. Other than those two things, by every other measurement you could find, my country is worse off from when I was a kid to now. And this is the first time Americans have experienced this. Historically, if you were a 47-year-old American, you would see your country, if you were born in the 1800s, 1700s, early 1900s, even mid 1900s. You would have seen your country grow and improve. Even with problems, we grew and improved in the 20th century, even though we have lots of problems. But you would have seen a net growth. For example, wages, real wages for, as a suggestion for inflation, have been stagnant since I was one year old.

And I'm almost 50, so I've never seen wages increase in my country as compared to inflation. So in the 1970s, my dad was a lower income worker. He made a lower, he was a lower, lower middle class, maybe even upper, lower class guy. And he barely made the money, but he was able to, in the 70s, he was able to support a family of seven. He was able to support his mom, my wife, my mom,

and us, I had five siblings, so the five of us, yeah, and that was in the late 70s, early 80s. Today, that's not even possible for a guy today in the United States. You couldn't even do that. You have to make a six figure income or higher to maintain all that stuff. A low income guy can barely even support himself.

A low income guy to day would struggle to live on his own and have a car in the United States in most cities and most regions. So that's, and that's the difference I've seen since I grew up just in my lifetime. Yes, I don't know, man. I don't know what the future's going to store. I think again, for the UK, we are a little bit less

despondent because there's so much less turmoil. Like I look at America, especially American politics, and it looks like a sitcom. That's how it is. It is. You are correct. The perception is reality. It's a sitcom.

OK, it's been a sitcom for quite a while. It's not with Trump. People think it sitcom. Okay. It's been a sitcom for quite a while. It's not with Trump. People think it started with Trump. It started along before Trump. But yeah, it's a sitcom. Correct. And yeah, I see that. And I think for some reason, maybe it's just me with rose, rose tinted glasses and some of the listeners may be saying that I'm completely wrong about this. But I just the UK doesn't have that same degree of turmoil.

We're not as, we're certainly not as polarized in terms of the, of the politics. Yeah, I agree with you. Um, and I think that, just that, like that on its own forces people, when you have fewer people at the ends of each spectrum politically in terms of, uh, how they identify with their particular, particular kind of thinking stance, which is what it's become right. Political stance is now not just about politics. It downstream from that totally. Well, that's surely that's got to affect your opinion on weed. Surely that's got to affect your opinion on alcohol and on pharmaceuticals and blah, blah, blah, blah, taxes and all the rest of

it. But for the UK people are a lot less identified with that. We got a lot more rain to contend with. I think the new guys, so there's a lot more like umbrella putting up and putting down. And but like, I don't know, it's interesting. I wonder how I'd be there in October. I think. Amazing. It'll still be okay, whether by the time you get here. I was reading just before we came on.

I was reading a news article and it was talking about how to sell apps to kids. So it was an advice piece for app developers about the two trigger points, forgetting apps to kids. And we're talking like under, I think it's like under sevens or under eights. And it was like there's two different types of people that you can sell to. One of them are the kids and then get them to kind of pester the parents and the other ones the parents. I was looking at this article like I can't even believe that this is a thing.

Like in whose right mind should anyone be targeting? Well why are you targeting apps at kids? Money. Right. Like yeah. Are you surprised? You should be surprised. Not surprised.

I'm not. Not surprised. You are right. Not surprised. But I am, I'm concerned. No, I'm biased in this area. I'm an extreme capitalist. So I'm very biased in this area.

But still, no one should be surprised. Yeah, that's, again, this is part of the world we live in. Sure. Yeah, you are right. And so we touched on it before your particular views on monogamy and dating and stuff like that. The listeners at home, as I mentioned before we started, we've never had anybody on who has been a polyamory advocate

or whatever you would even, I don't even know how you class yourself. So can you just take us from the beginning, talk to us about your stance and about what it means and stuff like that. So the nonmenogamy, I don't call it polyamory because polyamory is a segment of nonmenogamy. So polyamory is very specific. Polyamory is when you are dating multiple women and they are dating multiple men. So it's kind of this big happy group kind of falling all over each other, which is fine. That's one segment of nonmenogamy. So I call it nonmenogamy. A, it's a little less

threatening than polyamory. And B, it's more inclusive of every all the different segment of nonmenog, so I call it nonmenogamy. A, it's a little less threatening than polyamory and B, it's more inclusive of every all the different types of nonmenogamy. Cool. So nonmenogamy is not a core, I mean, it sounds like it is sometimes depending on what you read of what I write. It's not the core of what I talk about. It is a important slice of the pie. So it really starts with long term masculine happiness. And so the way men work and women are different, but the way men work is the freer you are on a given day-to-day basis, meaning you can wake up every morning and do whatever you want, whenever you want, with whomever you want, without having to check in with anybody or get anyone's permission, the closer you are to that condition, the happier you tend to

be. You will be happier if you have your own business generally speaking than if you have a corporate wage job because you have more freedom. You will be happier if you're allowed to have sex multiple women whatever you want than if you're only allowed to have sex with one woman, at least long term. And that's the way you're wired. You can't control this. That's just the way you are.

There are rare and usual exceptions, but there are rare and usual exceptions. So if you look at, I talk about things like alpha 2.0, that is an entire lifestyle. You're during your entire life around maximum freedom in all the seven areas of your life, the two core of those for a man being financial and sexual that you start there. You start with those two core areas because those help you with all the other areas when it's those are at a baseline. And so yeah, if you go into the woman part, you need to be allowed to, for number one, you need to have sex.

A new movement now is guys not having sex. So that's not going to make you happy long term. You're a guy. So assuming you're having sex, you need to be allowed to have sex with multiple women because long term, you're not going to be happy with having sex with just one woman. Short term, you will. You can make it work for a while, a year and a half, two years, three years, whatever you are, every guy's different. But long term, in the models, I talk about are all long term models that last for the rest of your life, not just in your 20s and early 30s, but your 40s, 50s, 60s and so on.

These are long term models. So if you want a long term happiness model, you've got to work in there in some way, your ability to have sex with multiple women if you choose to. And there's four or five different ways you can do that. We can talk about those if you want, but that's where the non-menogamy comes from. It's not about non-menogamy,

it's about long term freedom, which creates long term happiness for dudes. Why do you think men and women are so different? What's specifically, obviously genetically, you've alluded to the fact that man's genetic predisposition is to push his genes as far as is possible. However, it would appear based on some of the people who I've spoken to, anthropologists, evolutionary biologists, that pair bonding has to occur the reason that gestation is nine months and that sex is a long process, a pleasurable process,

the fact that women don't have visual ovulation, all of these sort of things. The fact that conception is actually relatively fairly tough for humans compared with some other animals. Yes, all of that leads towards pair bonding. Pair bonding needs to occur because the infant is pretty much dependent on the mother of the family,

but specifically the mother for the first 10, 15 years. And you need to have a father around to protect that particular pairing or however many children there is that particular family unit, you need to have the father around or else everybody dies because if a jaguar comes while you've got a mother. All accurate. Okay. So now here's the problem.

This is where people get confused. Everything you just said is scientifically accurate. I've written about this stuff myself. So you're, and that's absolutely true. Human beings, and this is where people get messed up. Human beings are pair bonding creatures, but they are not sexually monogamous creatures. There are two, those are two different things.

So you can be, I'm a perfect example. I am pair bonded, I'm married. I am pair bonded to one woman who I share my life with, who I love. I don't love anyone else. I don't want to be with anyone else. I don't want to spend the rest of my life with anyone else, just her and her with me. So we are parabonded. But I'm allowed to go out on the side and get laid whenever I want, whenever I choose with whomever I like. There's a few ground rules I agree to, but beyond that, I'm still allowed to be non-monogamous even though I'm pair bonded. So what happens is people quote these scientific facts, and they are facts.

Absolutely, and they say, see where monogamous. Well then why is it we have a 76% north of 76% divorce rate? Why do we have a 77% infidelity rate if we're a monogamous? We are pair bonding creatures. We are not monogamous creatures. So again, if you want to be long term happy, and I realize this is difficult because you're going to run it all kinds of societal programming and societal conditioning to tell you this is wrong, you're going to have to be long term in your life, not when you're in your 20s. I tell guys, you shouldn't

have a girlfriend to your in your 30s, my opinion. And so once you're an older guy, yes, you need to be pair bonded, but not monogamous. So that means you sit down with your special someone and you explain it to her like an adult. Hey, I love you. I want to be with you. I don't want to be with anyone else. And I'm a human being, and I'm a guy. And that means A, B, and C. We could lie to each other like teenagers and say, well, we're

in love. We'll be together forever. And we'll never want to sleep with anyone else because we're in love and Disney's in Narnia and unicorns and roses and shit or we can be adults and say let's be together Let's figure out a plan where we can integrate this into our lifestyles So I could be happy and you could be long-term happy because I'm happy and we avoid all these problems or at least most of problems that normal couples have The 76% divorce rate people I mean the fact that there is such a high divorce rate, people just presume, I guess if you think about it or if you ask the layperson on the street, why is the divorce rate so high,

it would be maybe some kind of wistful heritage thing about, well, it wasn't that way and my parents, my parents are still together, perhaps that would be right. They just cheated. Right, people stayed married and the men, mostly men cheated. So they still weren't monogamous. Okay, so why? Long term marriage and marriage working.

Yeah. Well, they've been married for 47 years. He's never cheated. Maybe he hasn't, but the odds are, I've talked to a lot of all guys. Guys, my grandfather's age, guys, their 90s, World War II guys. These guys were married and they stay married. They were not monogamous. They cheated. You see, I don't know if you've seen the American show Mad Men

about Americans in the 60s. It was the standard model back then. You cheated. That's just what you did when you were a guy. Women too, not as much, but they did too. Why is the divorce rate changed? Because women are now allowed to do whatever they want. So back in the olden days, like the 1950s, which a lot of guys in my world, the red pill minister world, I'm gonna go back to, women were allowed to get divorced.

So women would actually go into a court in the 40s, 30s, 50s and say, I wanted to divorce my husband and the judge would say, what the hell, you can't get to and say, I wanted to divorce my husband. And the judge say, what the hell? You can't get back to your husband next case. Or, and or they were not, or they couldn't do it financially. They couldn't support themselves. They need to be married.

So we've got to. And if they got divorced, their religious family would disown them. So as all these factors, because those factors are now gone, women are now encouraged to get divorced. Now it's the opposite. Well, you've become more financially independent,

more secular and more accepting, I guess, of divorce as a whole. Right. And yeah, I mean, that's how it's going to start. And it'll get worse. And it'll get worse. The divorce rate will increase. You're going to see soon, in the next decade, you're going to see 90 plus percent of horse rates. Wow.

People are very slow to figure this out. We're in about this a lot. They don't want to admit the system doesn't work anymore, so they're just going to keep getting married, keep getting divorced, keep screwing up with kids, keep getting financially raped, keep cheating on each other and yelling at each other. It's going to be a while before human beings finally go, you know, we should probably pick a different system. This isn't working.

It's going to be a while. Unfortunately. The stats, I mean, you know, there's not much that I can say about the fact that more than Now we should probably pick a different system. This isn't working. It's gonna be a lot. Unfortunately. The stats, I mean, you know, there's not much that I can say about the fact that more than three quarters of the people who get married end up getting divorced. As far as I was aware, maybe it's a UK stat,

I think it was more than 50, but no matter what the stat is, if there's a more likelihood, a high likelihood that you're going to get divorced than stay together. It's a worrying statistic. No matter what your views on monogamy are, it's pretty worrying statistic. Yeah, it is. Yeah, it's terrible. Yeah. Instead, people should figure out how to stay together, like two normal human beings, the way human beings actually work, instead of the way human beings work in a Disney fairy tale. Well, we're going to get married and

we're going to be in love forever. We're never going to fuck anyone else because we're in love and that's because it's no way. Yeah. What were you saying at the beginning about humans being mimetic creatures and about us taking a lot of societal conditioning. Swallowing that red pill as you've alluded to is a difficult thing to do when everyone else around you hasn't, right? Like when you you're... That's the big problem with guys in my audience. I don't know any other men like me. If

I tell my mom, she's going to get mad at me. Yeah, that's the big challenge. I've been working the last year and a half on that specific problem for guys to plug into more communities and things like that. But yes, that's the problem. That's the problem. Because it's very rare these days. Now 10 years ago, I would get this, but these days it's very rare for a man to say, oh no, traditional monogamous marriage works great as long as you do these few things. And every guy should do that. Very rare, a guy, even a hardcore right wing evangelical Christian, even those guys don't say that. They say, yeah, it doesn't work, but I'm not gonna do this and this,

not monogamy, we'll fuck that, no. Okay, but that's fine. If you don't, you don't have to like it, but the alternative doesn't work. You're pointing at something that doesn't work. So you've got something that doesn't work, or you've got something that works, but makes you emotionally uncomfortable for a while.

So those are your two options. I'd rather pick this, because I want to be happy I'm not going to pick something that doesn't work. So one of the first things that comes to mind for me when I think about a non-typical non-monogamous relationship as your non-typical relationship, which is non-monogamous, is what do you do about the kids? What do you do about raising children in that sort of an environment? I know, I personally know about, let's see, as in right this second,

I know, let's see, seven couples, six couples, and I've known many other couples, six or seven, I have to think about that for a minute. Who are married, who live together, no one really knows what kind of lifestyle they lead, other than close friends and people like me, and they have kids.

As a matter of fact, when I was married the first time back when I was young and stupid, I was married a thousand years ago, I was married traditionally and monogamously, and it didn't work because she got depressed and started taking pills. And when we were married, while I was married, four literally, four houses down on my street,

I didn't know this till after I had moved away. There was a married couple with two little kids who played with my kids who had a wide open marriage. I had no idea. As far as I know, they're still married. This is decades ago. And they were the happiest couple on the block. And they had kids.

Now, no one knew, that's why I didn't know, didn't know till later. Just kind of for the great, I went, what? I actually called them up and said, is this true? I don't want to freak out here. Is it true? It's like, ah, and my old thing, my old joke to myself is if I had just sat down and talked to that guy for an hour before I got married the first time incorrectly in my view, it would have saved me a lot of time and effort. So you can have kids, you just can't, I have kids, I raised kids under this model. I just got married, let's see, you're in a half ago. Yes. And so my daughter and my son were little when I was living this way. You just, there are rules. You don't parade women around your kids, obviously.

You need to show your kids some level of consistency. You need to be an example. You don't go out and telling everybody in their school or all your friends and family that what you're doing if you don't want to. People don't have to know what you're doing. That's there's no requirement there. You just have to be realistic about your sexual desires. So yeah, you can have kids. A lot of people have kids. And again, if I say have an open marriage and have kids immediately, your societal programming goes, why is that? Okay, fine. You can you can live your life like two plus two equals five if you want. It's fine. Cool. You'll be very happy You have a lot of problems. You can do that. Fine. I'd rather live two plus two equal four even if I don't really like four and four

Mostly bothers me initially That's all I look at so Some of the listeners may have heard us talk about him before but all brain Marcus I don't know whether you know who that is the guy that owns on I've heard that name, but that's all I know. I've heard that name. So he's the CEO or founder of Onits, which is a software company that Joe Rogan is a partner of. Very big, very successful. I haven't actually gone spoken that much about Aubrey, but people who read my tweets will have seen that recently I had to unsubscribe from his newslette. Orbre and his wife Whitney who is a very attractive, ultimate fighting championship type, ring announcer, commentator type woman, super fair, very, but they are in a, I think it's class as a polyamorous or an open relationship. There's probably a degree of granularity that you would be able to discern from what's going on that I,

I'm not going to be able to get to you. But, and he talks about this experience when his wife brought home another man for the first time and the way that he felt and then he talked about the first time that he had sex with another woman. And he said both of those situations, every time that his wife brought another man home, he was dry wretching on the floor. And it took him four months to get over. Oh my God. No.

So this is in his email newsletter. One of the things I can say about Orbre is he's very candid, right? So his email newsletter. Yeah, at least he's being honest. That's very cool of him. He's being honest. That's great. We need more people like that, actually.

So I applaud him for that. I'm one of the few guys in the world, I think, literally, who talk about my non-monogamous exploits and my experiences under my own name with my own picture and it's me. There should be a lot more people than just me. There are people I know with audiences. My size are much larger who don't talk about this. So at least he's doing that. But yeah, one of the challenges with this are guys who do this wrong. So everything he's describing, I would never do in my marriage, that doesn't work. I don't want to be mean to this guy. I have no idea. But no, fire away. You're an expert in this particular field.

Or as close to an expert as I can get hold of. So we're going to find out what you think. You have to sit down. You have to sit down and be realistic about what will piss you off and what will not piss you off before you actually get into the relationship and before you even have these discussions. So that's number one.

A lot of people don't even do that. They say, OK, we're open. A lot of more like left wing, like hip-ish type people. Oh, we're sexually free. It'll be great. And then, yeah, and then their wife brings a guy to the house and has sex with him. Oh, my God. No.

You have to know your own parameters and be self-aware first. What am I capable of doing? What am I not capable of doing? If x, y, and z happen, would I be able to handle that or not? And you need to think that stuff through. And even if you need to write down, you figure all this stuff out and get it all on paper first. I'm not a super jealous guy, but there are things my wife could do that would make me not read you on the floor,

but things like, oh, Jesus, what the hell? So you have to be aware of those things first. Then your partner has to be aware of her things. So she has to be, you get into her head a little bit, because she's probably not going to tell you and figure out what her parameters are internally. And every woman is very different. So for example, my wife is more comfortable if she's more aware of the specific women I'm playing with on the side. Whereas my last serious relationship,

the girlfriend I have before her, she was the opposite. If she didn't know, she knew I was doing but she didn't know any details, she was very happy. She thought it was fine. When she found out details or when I told her things, she would get really pissed off. So every woman is very different about this. So that's the first level. Then the second level is you sit down and you discuss the ground rules. Again, before you get too serious, once you're already moved in and married,

and now you're going to discuss ground rules, that's too late. So my wife and I had a very long detailed discussion, I called the OLTR talk. I have a whole structure for this stuff. This was several years ago, and I laid out all the negatives of being married to me. And nonmenonvities want to, and actually it wasn't when she was pissed off. Now, there was like four or five of them, and that was just one. Matter of fact, the one she was scared about was that I work a lot. I worked every day.

She's like, well, she didn't care about that on an on me because I'd already been doing it the whole time she met me. So she was used to that point. It was more like, well, you're going to work a lot. You're going to spend time with me. It was more of that kind of stuff. But you lay all that stuff out and then you lay out the ground rules and you're very specific about the ground rules based on what you're capable of and what you think you're not capable

of emotionally. You just don't go hog wild and bring men over. So he should have known, hey, look, look, wife, before she's my wife, hey, you're not capable of emotionally. You just don't go hog wild and bring men over. So he should have known, hey, look, look wife before she's my wife, hey girlfriend who are thinking about getting serious. We're gonna be non-menogamous, hear the parameters, but here's what you can't do. You can't bring guys over and fuck them on my couch

that I'll throw up. You gotta be honest about that stuff. And a lot of people don't do that. And I, yeah, it damages the cause when that stuff. You didn't do that. A lot of people don't do that. Yeah, it damages the cause when that happens. I see that a lot of that. It reads to me the emails and the stuff that I've seen from him and his semi-diary, he uses his email list.

Sometimes it almost feels a little bit like a journal. Well, that's kind of cool. That's neat. So the transparency from Aubrey, I really admire. Yeah, I think it's great. It was, I had to unsubscribe. Aubrey, if you're listening, I apologize, but it was, it was too woke. Like it was so woke and everything was like hyper woke, eGmail that came through. And I think, well, he's big. Those are the kind of people who screw this up, people who go too far with the left wing

Wokeness stuff and we're we're creatures of nature and it doesn't matter and No, it does matter. It does matter to certain people. So you have to be aware of these things There are there are boundaries of these things now if you're not serious, then you can do it every one So I talk about I have there's there's different types. There's fb's which are non-serious There's nltr's where it's serious, but not committed and there's ol tr which is like a girlfriend to your wife So there's levels and there's less rules as you go further over to this side of the scale You can do whatever you want over here over here if you want to be bare bonded You've got to commit to some level of rules. It's not it's not a free for all it's not gonna work

And it's not how human beings work unfortunately nice that they did but they don't yeah So I think what it seems to me, so Aubrey's a big psychedelic warrior, right? Like he's big into his mushrooms and his DMT, and he goes away with the shaman and gets like, with all the ceremonies and all that sort of stuff. Not surprised, I guess. And I think, yeah, it fits the model, right?

Yeah. What I think, what I think he was potentially doing with this was almost seeing it as like a right of passage. I think he had seen this particular prescription for non-monogamy in whatever model it was that he thought that he was going to adhere to. And then him and his then wife were going to fit their life around this prescription, as opposed to having it be emergent, which is what you're talking about. He had seen, okay, this is what non-monogamy is,

therefore I'm gonna stick to it. And I think he talks about, I think it's in his book, Seize the Day. He talks about how he brought this guy home and it was like this for the first X number of weeks or months or times or whatever that it happened. And then he had a breakthrough. And the terminology for breakthrough

is taken from when people smoke DMT, right? It's that you have this breakthrough experience so you take a hero dose of mushrooms and you break through. And I think he was maybe trying to layer a psychedelic framework or like fit nonmenogamy into a psychedelic matrices. Like that was what he was trying to fit it into. To what?

Right. To what? That's it. It could be summarized in. He's lost objectivity and he's lost reality. You need to be objective about these things. I mean, and that's, that's it could be summarized in lost objectivity and he's lost reality you need to be objective about these things i mean and that's that's an example it's an interesting example of it going the other way most people are on the other side more the right wing side including people who are

considered left wing people it marriage looks like this and a relationship looks like this and it better look like this or you're a sinner or i'm never gonna get usually people on the other side of irrationality. He's on this side of the irash. There's a rational zone in the middle between those two extremes. You've got to be rational about how human beings are, but you also have to be rational and objective and self-aware enough to know what your limits are and every guy is different. And every woman is different.

Yeah, it's an interesting one man. It's an interesting one. I mean, he's the penultimate email to the one that I unsubscribe from, the title was, me and Whitney nearly split up today. And that's him and his wife. And I'm like, I appreciate it. Yeah, it's a little too much information. It should be, yeah. It's the walk in this man. Like, so I appreciate the transparency. And I genuinely do think, and it plays into his stick, right? It's part and part of this thing. But I'm like, man, like if you and your wife are on the verge of splitting up, don't use that as your fucking weekly newsletter content.

Yeah. That's a piece of advice. And another piece of advice, like he talks, the fucking first or second line of this, of his Instagram post from the same day was like Whitney left to go to Texas to see her boyfriend today. And that is this is an example of what you were talking about earlier about what polyamory

is the difference between polyamory and an open relationship. Okay. So in my view, and this is this is not a fact more than my opinion, but I'm pretty sure I'm right about this. If you want to be pair bonded, that person shouldn't have other boyfriends because that's not parabonding. So if your wife has a boyfriend or if you're married and you have another girlfriend on the side, a girlfriend, that's not parabonding. He has two. He has two girlfriends. He has two girlfriends. Okay. So if he views these as real girlfriends, real emotional meaning

and commitment to these women in addition to his wife, that's not pair bonding. That's something else. That's as more polyamory. So that'd be a polyamorous marriage, which I don't, I'm against. I think that's a very bad idea. I think polyamory is great if you are not pair bonding. So for many years, in my part, it's gonna be MLTR. So I had multiple MLTRs for years, and it was great, but I didn't have a girlfriend. They were all women I was dating, and I really liked, and I liked at an emotional level, but they weren't a girlfriend. Once you have a girlfriend, that's pair bonding. So if you have multiple girlfriends, I've talked to a lot of guys about this, hundreds of guys about this almost never have I seen that work long term to have multiple in the Western world.

I mean, you can move to Saudi Arabia or do something else. But in the Western world, having multiple girlfriends or multiple wives or something to that equivalent, it doesn't work long term in the West. You can't do that. If you're going to be pair bonded, you need to be pair bonded. I am with you. I have no other girlfriends or wives except you. I'm allowed to go get laid on the side.

These are not my girlfriends. These are women who are my friends. FBs, which is friend with benefits. It's a friend, not a girlfriend. So I have an oil TR. I have a wife and I have FBs. They're not my girlfriends. They're just my buddies and we have sex.

And that's it. We don't go to dates. We don't spend the week together. I already have that with my wife. That's more, that's a more long-term sustainable model. I understand. I think orbree if you're listening we got some advice for your man getting such with Caleb, it'll it'll do a little rundown. He maybe give you a little bit of a he needs to downgrade his girlfriends to FBs. He needs to make his wife his only wife and his only girlfriend and she needs to make that kind of commitment too, and if she doesn't want to, they should

get divorced and they should just date. There we go. Now it's sustainable. That's a sustainable model. I might re-sign up to his newsletter and I'll reply and I'll give him the too long didn't read from the podcast, Matt. So one of the things that I've been thinking in the back of my mind and I can't fantastically put myself in the mind of a female, but to the girls that are listening,

I would love to hear what your thoughts are about this, whether or not you would have ever considered this or whether it's so kind of visceral and stomach turning because of the way that you naturally consider couples and partnerships to be that it's difficult to almost put yourself into this situation. But I think certainly one of the things that will come to mind for many people when, and I'm very empathetic, right? Like my empathy is crippling. So for me to think about the way that... Probably a nicer person than me though that you're probably a nice guy. Yeah, but too nice sometimes, and unfortunately people, if they realize that, if they realize how empathetic you are,

it's a big, big, advantage-taking thing. Oh, I know. And it causes you to move slow as well. Like, when you're super concerned about how your actions are going to affect to the people, it often causes you to drop into inertia. But we all have our shortcomings in our advantages, right? Like there's people out there who might not have the empathy, but they have a whole host of other issues they got to deal with.

That's being, I have extremely, I've been told, and then they're right, extremely low empathy. I barely give a shit about anything. So the advantage is I can move very quickly, I can get a lot of things done, I have a very organized, extremely low empathy. I barely give a shit about anything. So the advantage is I can move very quickly, I can get a lot of things done, I have a very organized, very good life. The disadvantage is I can hurt people's feelings if I'm not careful, people close to me.

So as you grow, you have to learn to mitigate those weaknesses, you have to learn to become, stay empathetic, but not let it hamper you, and I can learn how to be more empathetic. Yeah, it's interesting, man. It is interesting how you do that. Do you find within the non-monogamy community a people's skew to less empathetic?

I'm gonna guess maybe. No, I don't. I run to people who are more like you. Okay, that's interesting. Especially the polyamory people, I'm really not in that group. I mean, they're non-monogamy, so they're my brothers, I love them, but I'm not a polyamorous guy. So, but yes, especially the polyamory people, I'm really not in that group. I mean, they're not monogamy, so they're my brothers, I love them, but I'm not a polyamorous

guy. But yes, especially the polyamory world, yes. Much more empathetic guys, yes. Absolutely. That's interesting. But yeah, so to try and put myself into the mind of a girl thinking about this particular situation, certainly one of the problems that you make him up against, I'm going to guess you will have a

format for this or a structure for this that exists where you have a man who does want to be able to have other partners outside of his main relationship, but that which is all men, but go ahead. But the girl in the relationship has no desire to be with other men. Normal. Yeah. But that I think what just described the norm. Okay. What is in the earlier parts of the relationship? You just describe the norm. He wants to play around as she doesn't want to or doesn't want to yet.

What that leads to people thinking and what it certainly leads to me thinking is that there's there's some kind of imbalance unfairness between the two that somehow the open non-monogamous relationship would work more easily or would somehow be more balanced as a way to put it if both partners had other things going on. That's true. But if one partner doesn't want those things, which happens all the time, it's happened to me a lot. Yeah. And fine. The as long as she is allowed to, because that's one of the first questions she's going to throw at your face when you start describing these things to her, the very first thing that's going to tumble out of her mouth is, well, can I fuck other guys? Either she doesn't want to it as no intention to do it thinks it's gross. If she were to do that, she's still going to say that.

And if you say, well, then you're out. If you say yes, if you really want to do that, yes, of course. Then she goes, oh, cool. So I mean, so there we lead on to the next thing, which is that for men, and again, this is evolutionary conditioning for men, allowing your partner to sleep with other men, provokes an incredibly visceral response. Incredibly. And if you want to have your cake, you need to, I'm going to guess it,

that it's probably a pretty difficult sell to say our relationship is going to be non-monogamous, but only for me. And not long-term sustainable. Okay, so if you're... I've never seen that. I've seen guys try that. I've never seen it last more than nine months. Why the guy is a... I'm nervous man, try that. In the Western world. Guys able to sleep around, girl isn't. Yeah, so he literally says, I'm gonna fuck other women. You can only fuck me. And he's like, and he's a strong alpha male. And she's a little willowy little submissive girl.

And she goes, okay. And within nine months, they either break up or she bangs someone else just to make it even and to balance it out just to get back at it. Yeah. So for guys, I mean, like for me personally, again, maybe I'm too blue pill or maybe I haven't taken the red pill yet enough for this, I struggle to see a situation in which I would

be able to stomach somebody that I love sleeping with someone else with my allowance with my grace. So there's several answers to that. Answer number one in their different areas So answer number one is a Significant percentage of women who are not super young so if she's under the age of 23 She's gonna have sex other guys. That's that's what young girls do if she's older a significant percentage and in my experience in my anecdotal experience But I have a lot of anecdotal experience. It's around 40 to 50 percent won't sleep other men

Even if they have the opportunity to, they don't want to, they think that's gross. So even though you're sleeping with other women, they say, okay, you're a man, you're a barbarian, that's how men are, but I don't do that. I'm appropriate, I'm a Christian, or I'm a this, or I'm a that, so I'm not gonna do that. So that's one.

Number two, if she does, women are not like men. And so what men do is they negative fantasize about, well, if I'm allowed to go out and have sex constantly go to the women and I'm gonna constantly do that for the rest of my life Oh, no, she's gonna constantly do that. No, she doesn't women go through horny phases They go through non-sexual phases. They go through all kinds of different phases So if she does she might do it for a few months and then stop and never do it again, or maybe do it once every 10 years or once every few years, often on very rarely. She's not going to do it consistently like I do it, like you would do it because we're men, men are not like women.

That's the second answer. Third answer is, you should train yourself to get to the point where you care less. So if you're a jealous person, it's going gonna be harder for you to be a happy person. So if you have this thing where a lot of guys are like this, there's guys who are really jealous, guys who are moderately jealous, and guys who don't really don't give a shit. So they're really jealous guys. If they even see a guy comment on her Facebook page, or they hear a thing on Instagram, go off on her phone, and they just go into a rage. You have a problem. There's something wrong with you, you need to fix. You don't say, well, I'm a man, and they just go into a rage. You have a problem. There's something wrong with you. You need to fix. You don't say, well, I'm a man and that's just how I am and quote a bunch of, you know, evolutionary psychology about how I need to, you know, protect my women and I'm not going to, you can, you can give me

all that science you want. You're, there's something wrong with you in terms of your long term happiness, if you're that angry and that jealous. So if you are on a skillful one to ten, you're a twelve. If you visualize a woman you like having meaningless sex with a beta male who's no competition to you, wearing a condom, if that just drives you insane, then it's, it behooves you in terms of being a man and being a happy man and to approve yourself to get that twelve down to a six, or a seven, or or a 5 or somewhere in there. Drop it down. You should do that anyway, even if you were planning on being monogamous for the rest of your life, you would do that anyway. You shouldn't go through life being that touchy

about these things. That's all I see all the time and that's one of women's biggest complaints about guys. As they start seeing them and all of a sudden the guy starts to just put all these fences and walls around them and the woman's traction for the man goes down She's like, oh now for a while she likes it because that means he likes me But after a while, oh my god kill me and that's one of the reasons why 75% of boyfriend growth and relationships are terminated by the female because woman gets tired of the stuff Is that the statistic? That's the stat three-fourths three-four force of boyfriend growth and relationships are ended by the woman and 70 to 80% depending on the study you look at least the United States of divorces are initiated by the

female. So women like getting into relationships women hate staying in relationships is not what they like. You could argue you could argue that the girl is ending the relationship because they potentially found out that the man had cheated. That's a huge percentage of them. Yes. And one of the reasons I'd be able to do this, you can do this now, especially now, if a woman starts complaining about this, if you start explaining this to a woman, when you first start verbalizing it, oh, you can't fuck other girls. That's not what a relationship looks like. All you have to do, I've done this with many women, including my wife, when I met her, all you have to do is say, you look at her and you say,

every boyfriend you've ever had of a decent period of time has cheated on you, right? And they go, and that's it, you're in, you're done. That covers so much of it, because they know monogamy doesn't work. So that's the fourth answer, is the fourth answer is, what is your alternative? Your alternative is something that doesn't work,

that we know for sure doesn't work. It's not like maybe this might work. We know for sure the odds are overwhelming that it probably won't work. So by saying, I can't do this, again, you're going back to a system that doesn't work. So you have, those are my four answers to that. I think a lot of people, because of the visceral reaction that you'll get, maybe

the dry wretching on the floor or just the sensation that people get, both guys and girls, when you think about, you know, to the people that are in relationships who are listening, just for a second put yourself in the mind and think what would happen if you tried to have an open relationship or a non-monogamous relationship where you are allowed to sleep with other people, but you have to put up with your partner sleeping with someone else, it evokes such a very, very visceral response. It does. I think that is a hurdle.

So many people will struggle to get over. And I'm going to guess potentially more guys will struggle to get over. And I'm gonna guess potentially more guys will struggle to get over that hurdle of allowing the partner to sleep with other people. There may be even girls, yeah, I thought. Yeah, not maybe, that is correct. Guys have much harder, much harder problems than women do. Women are accustomed to men sleeping around

throughout all human history. So they're kind of used to it. They don't like it, but they're more, it's men who have a problem with it. Yeah, interesting. But yeah, I mean, that's why why the divorce rates gonna continue to get worse because what you just said What's working what what people were doing now isn't working but the alternative is so horrible

They're gonna keep going back to what isn't working over and over and over unless your goal in life And there are a few men who say this to me, but not many unless your goal in life is to have serial And there are a few men who say this to me, but not many unless your goal in life is to have serial Short-term Monogamous relationships for the rest of your life. So in other words if you tell me hey, man My goal is to have a girlfriend and I'll have her for about a year and a half two years And I'll break up with her. It'll be binogamous. Then I'll get a new girlfriend and I'll date her for about a year and I'll have a new girlfriend Do that do that 20 times for the rest of my life for the rest of your life If you say look, I'm cool doing that

until my 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, and you really say that with honesty, then you could ignore everything I'm saying, because that'll work. Other than that, if you have something long term, you're gonna have to embrace a model that is something other than what doesn't work. So, as a bookend question to what has been

a really interesting discussion, I'd love to hear your thoughts on what you think is the optimal setup for a relationship in life. So we've talked about you've had multiple long-term partners moving through. Would you have preferred in a different iteration of the world where you could control everything that occurred within it. Do you think it's optimal to have what I can't remember the MLFB or whatever it was? Oh, well, TR. The main one. One why for growth, or any mean? Yes. Is it optimal if you can to have one for 60 years, 30 years, however long, from mid-30s until whatever, or from...

Are you talking about optimal as in how human beings are now. For you, if you were to say to someone, this is what I think is for a broad cross section of people the best way to do things. Yes, for a broad cross section of men, but not all men, because they're exceptions to all these rules. There are some then who should never get parabond. There are so small percentage of men who should never have a girlfriend.

They should just go bang chicks and date into their 60s and 70s, and that's an exception. Yes, for broad cross section of people, the least bad scenario, because I don't want to say it best, because there's problems with what. There are problems with the models I'm talking about. Everything you've talked about are those are accurate criticisms. The least bad system is a long-term, hair-bonded, wife or girlfriend. Have you want to term it? Assuming you're over the age 35, because I tell you guys, don't settle down to woman to your age 35.

That's insane. At least you're 35. Assuming you're 35 or older, you have a long-term, decades-long, wifer girlfriend that you are really good with, and you're very complimentary with and compatible with, and you are allowed to get sex on the side. Within Brown rules, these are not your girlfriends. This is more casual, friendly sex when you need it as a man, and she is allowed to too.

And the older she gets, the less you'll do it, she may not do it at all if she gets older. That's the least bad scenario for the broadest cross section of people, yes. Because that is what I just described is doable long term. What is not doable long term is we're gonna be married, you're never gonna touch anyone else

for the rest of your fucking life, and I won't either, and you roll your eyes as you're saying it when you're a guy. I promise I won't either, honey. And we're never going to get divorced. We're never going to split up. That's not long-term sustainable because that is a fundamental violation of everything in which all the ways in which you were designed as a man and as a woman.

That's why it doesn't work. Okay. So I'm going to finish off with a question, which is you've got the monogamy, which is the traditional relationship approach, which you've just identified there. And then you've got Orbrae's relationship, which is, I mean, you have a wife and the wife's going to have which one, yeah, that's a polyamorous marriage. Which one is the, in your eyes, the least effective? Which one neither of those are long term sustainable, which one's going to fail first? sustainable. Which one's going to fail first? Hit how long his how long has he been married? I'm not sure. I don't know

his His will you can you can grit your teeth and be monogamous to a wife for a long time I did it for nine years and I'm a really high sexist so you can do it when men and women can grit their teeth and Separate through shitty marriages a lot of people can do that They did that all throughout the 50s and 60s and all that good stuff So you can have a marriage Traditional monogamous marriage that lasts a long time. It won't last forever. That's not how you're designed. And if it does last forever, someone's cheating and someone's putting up with it.

But someone's going to encounter in the polyamorous marriage. Someone's going to encounter a problem that is that is that is catastrophic to the relationship. If he's wretching on the floor because there's a man fucking his wife in his house, how is that long term sustainable? It's not, we can't do it. Well, I mean, I asked my son. Whereas the guy who has a wife at home

and he cheats on her and hopes he doesn't get caught, you can stretch that out for a long time. Not forever, but you could stretch that out here. Some people make it last for their entire lives, right? And that's fine, but that's not monogamous. So that's what I would view dysfunctional non-monogamy. You're non-monogamous because you're cheating. You're having sex with multiple people.

You're just pretending you're not. So now you're dealing with drama and lying and all kinds of other problems that are dysfunctional to your core relationship with your wife. And again, I don't have a lot of my wife. If you're an empathetic individual, as I am, the times that I have cheated in past relationships have caused such second or third or the fourth order effect guilt, and then self-referential guilt, and then all of those things, feelings of lower degree virtue, lower degree of integrity,

all of those sorts of things, that for me, I was like, well, that's not a workable model. Cheating, being in a relationship and cheating, is not a workable model. For me, I... Not if you want to be happy. No. Not if you want to be happy. I've talked a lot of guys about that model and they tell me exactly what you're saying. Or there's terrifying.

They're constantly worried they're going to get caught. They have multiple phones and multiple accounts and all that good stuff. That is not a long-term sustainable model if happiness is your objective. Now if you say to me and there's a few men who say this, I don't care about being long-term happy. I don't give a fuck about that. I want to live my life this way. Yeah, you might be happier than me.

I don't care. Great. Then go ahead and cheat. But if your objective is long-term happiness, you are correct. You can't adopt a cheating model long-term. You've got to figure out something else that is more long-term happiness, you are correct. You can't adopt a cheating model long-term. You've got to figure out something else that is more long-term sustainable, even if it makes you uncomfortable during the first few months or year until you try it. That's interesting.

Caleb, for the listeners at home, we want to find out a little bit more. Maybe some people think, oh, it's an interesting discussion that I want to read a bit more about. Where would you direct them? I have a lot of websites, the easiest place to go to be Caleb Jones.com. So C-A-L-E-B-S and boy, Jones.com. That's kind of the central hub of all my websites. Yeah.

Most of my content is business and location, depending on income and all that good stuff, too. Again, monogamy is a segment of what I talk about in terms of masculine, that I can't talk. Masculine lifestyle design. Yeah. I got you. Caleb, it's been really interesting. I hope that we have opened some people's eyes to an alternative approach to relationships. I think certainly, for me, over the last few years,

I've seen people talk about non-monogamy in different versions as we've gone through today. Increasingly, I do wonder what the trajectory of that's going to be. I wonder whether people are going to dig their heels in. As divorce rates continue to go up, I wonder whether people are going to dig their heels into the existing model more or whether more people will begin to migrate across to non-monogamy. I think you're going to see a lot of balls. Everything gets polarized, man. But it's been really fascinating. Thank you so much for your time.

You bet, anytime. Catch you later, I'm man. All right, you two. you