Modern Wisdom - #096 - Zuby - Strength, Faith and Survival Tactics

Episode Date: August 22, 2019

Zuby is a rapper, author and podcaster. Zuby exploded onto the internet earlier this year and after a number of months being mentioned on the biggest news outlets and podcasts in the world it's time to get him on Modern Wisdom. Today we talk all things woke from cancel culture to the ethics of encouraging trans children, Zuby's views on religious thinking among atheists and his advice for how to operate in an increasingly chaotic world. Extra Stuff: Follow Zuby on Twitter - https://twitter.com/ZubyMusic Zuby's Website - https://www.zubymusic.com/ Check out everything I recommend from books to products and help support the podcast at no extra cost to you by shopping through this link - https://www.amazon.co.uk/shop/modernwisdom - Get in touch. Join the discussion with me and other like minded listeners in the episode comments on the MW YouTube Channel or message me... Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/ModernWisdomPodcast Email: https://www.chriswillx.com/contact Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Well, hello there people of podcast land. Welcome back to modern wisdom. My guest today is Zubi. He is a rapper, a podcaster, author and a graduate at Oxford, but he's most famous at the moment for being a deadlifter. He released a tweet earlier in the year which went viral and has springboarded him into, I guess, the public eye. Interestingly, the parallel that I draw between him and Jordan Peterson continues to hold true, that he just happens to be this guy who was perfectly equipped to deal with massive amounts of scrutiny and press attention

and also to be able to cut his way through very complex issues that often people get quite offended about. So today we're talking all things Woke from Tatanya McGrath, whose creator, Andrew Doyle, will be coming on modern wisdom very soon, by the way. Mario Lopez and his recent run-in with transgender activists after putting his foot in it. And an awful lot of other stuff. We find out what is the wakest city in the UK. And yeah, Zubi guides us through some pretty complex topics, some ones which I haven't delved into before. But it was interesting to hear these very inflammatory and very contested topics, broken down by someone who has had a

front row seat to these situations unfolding in front of them. So without further ado, please let me welcome Zubi. I am joined by the strongest female deadlift champion on the internet. Zubi, welcome to the show. How's it going Chris Aido? Fantastic to have you on man. Recently spoke to Brian Carroll who is a multiple record holder in powerlifting for men and now speaking to one for women as well.

That's right, man. Deadlift and bench press, 84 kg weight class, women's, of course. How heavy is a squat? What have you got to get your squat to? Man, I haven't squatted properly for ages because of an injury that's been harassing me for literally about five years now. But my personal best on the squat is 190 and I believe the women's record in my weight class is about 210, something like that. A little bit of work and you've got the total as well. Yeah, man. I think I think

I could do it. I could definitely completely annihilate the deadlift in the bench press ones. But the squat will take a little bit of work. Oh, go. So for everyone who's listening who doesn't have a clue what we're talking Oh, go E. So for everyone who's listening, who doesn't have a clue what we're talking about, can you take us through what's happened over the last few months of your life? Yeah, the last few months have been quite the whirlwind. So going back to February now,

at the end of February, on my Twitter account at Zubi Music, I posted up a nine second video of me doing a deadlift in the gym I was lifting 230 kilograms, which is 500 and something pounds. It's actually well below my maximum, but I just had a clip of me doing it on my phone and I posted it up with a caption saying I keep hearing about how there's no biological difference between men and women in 2019. So watch me destroy the British women's deadlift record without trying. And that I wrote PSI identified as a woman while lifting the weight, so don't be a bigot.

And this tweet caught absolute fire. It went hyper viral. It's got 1.7 million views on the original video. I think it got about 55,000 likes and 20-something thousand retweets. It just went nuts. It went viral in the UK, in Canada, in America, in Europe, and all over the world. And then newspapers and media started picking up on it. It was covered by Fox News, The Daily Wire, Sky News, BBC, a whole bunch of different outlets and then a bunch of podcasts such as Lauda with Crowder, the Ben Shapiro show, and the one that really catalyzed a few

things, which was the Joe Rogan experience. So it just went bonkers. At the time I tweeted it, I had 17,000 followers. And as of this week, I'm the proud owner of over 100, well, I don't want to say owner. I'm the proud, uh, what's the right term? Thank you, owner. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I have over 100,000 Twitter followers now. So it's increased just crazily this year as well as my, my YouTube audience and my podcast audience and my music listeners. Everything I do has just exploded. It was a real catalyst

for everything I do, which is awesome, but also kind of ridiculous. Yeah, no. This kind of real asymmetry with viral content and stuff like that is a, it's a real blessing when you get it right. And what's hilarious is the fact that this is you working up to like an RPE 7. And that's like a comfortable 75% pull. I don't know whether or anyone's discussed this yet, but we've had a number of debates on the podcast about whether pulling Sumo is cheating or not. No, it's not.

Sumo's not. It's not even easier for everybody. Well, there we go. We've heard it. I mean, if it were easy, when people say it's easier, I'm like, then why don't you pull it? Because it's, it's, it's competition legal. Yeah. So if, if, it were easier, every single power lifter would pull Sumo, but they don't. So it's kind of silly logic to even say that. I mean, it depends on how you're built. For some people,

it is easier. But, um, not for everybody or every, I mean, if you even look at the sort of world strongest man guys guys most of them don't Pullsumo. Yeah, interesting isn't it? Yeah, most most of them don't it really depends on your build your sort of Leg to arm ratio your hips all that kind of stuff So yeah, we've got a very tall co-host on the show Johnny who pulls three ten and um in the 305 so whatever it is he pulls sumo, but but we just wind him up by saying it's sometimes easy. It's easy, it's like, I can do both, by the way. Yeah, just anyone wanting.

No, that's funny. So this has happened, it's absolutely exploded. And what has that done in terms of exposure for your content now? Because having to look through your Twitter, and I strongly advise everyone who's listening to go and check out at Zubi Music because it is the caliber of that content doesn't smack of someone who only had sort of 17,000 followers a few months ago. It's very insightful, very well curated for Twitter, bullied lists, some very nice sort of social commentary, all that sort of stuff. So what was the grind up to that point?

What was happening up to there? Wow. Well, so I'm a professional rapper. I'm an independent musician. I've been doing it full time since 2011, but I've been rapping since 2006. So if you go on my Twitter profile, you see my Twitter has been active since July 2009.

And before that, I was on Facebook and YouTube. And before that, I was on my space, if you want to take it back to the beginning. So I've been active on social media for a very long time. I've been building my audience for a long time, primarily through my music and my gigs and my concerts and selling CDs, traveling all around the UK, whether that's down in. Born method, the Isle of White, or up in Newcastle, or Glasgow, I've been to every city in the UK multiple times doing shows, selling my CDs, talking to people, just promoting my music. So that was the thing that I was initially known for, and that's the main way that I built

up my organic audience. So it's been a really long grind to get to where things are. I mean, I've released five albums and three EPs. I've got eight releases and total out there. Those are all available on iTunes and Spotify and all that. Sold over 25,000 albums out of my backpack, just traveling around the UK, put out a ridiculous number of, I mean, I've got 55,000 tweets on my, just on my Twitter and then crazy amounts of content on Facebook and YouTube and all these different places. So, it's all been, I mean, it's been great because I laid such a strong foundation.

It meant that when that tweet went viral, it meant two things or maybe more than two things. Number one is that people came and a lot of them stayed because they realized that I had a lot more to offer beyond just one funny, kind of silly tweet. People go viral all the time on Twitter, but they don't have 100,000 followers because the tweet goes viral, but then people go to the page and there's nothing particularly interesting there beyond that one off funny tweet. So people don't really follow or people disappear. there's nothing particularly interesting there beyond that one-off funny tweet. So people don't really follow or people disappear. With mine, people came and then they were like, oh, he's a rapper.

Oh, his music's actually good. Oh, he does podcasts. Oh, I like his podcast. Oh, he's got interesting stuff to say. And he's funny. So a lot of people came and they stayed. And then also it just meant that I've been able to deal with some of the craziness, you know, the massive amount of love and attention, massive amounts of hate and criticism.

I've been dealing with both of these things as a professional musician for a well over a decade. So I'm kind of seasoned to it. All the tapen is that the volume has increased, which is something I'm still adjusting to and the volume is going to increase again. So in a way, it's kind of what I wanted. It's just, it's just odd how it happened. You know, that was of all the content I've put out there, all the things I've done, of all the money I've spent, of all the traveling I've done, the idea that it was that ridiculous was that ridiculous

tweet that didn't even have anything to do with my music, to open so many people up to who I am and what I do that, you know, it's been very bizarre, but I'm thankful for it. Yeah, when you're grinding away five years ago, ten years ago in a studio in the art end of London somewhere, trying to get the same verse 20 times. And then all you should have really been doing is just working on you, see my deadlift form. Well, one of my friends, one of my friends Jose made a really good point. He said, you know what, man, it took you 15 years of training to even make that video. Nice.

That's a good point. So you was like, you know, that wasn't an overnight. Like, most people cannot lift what you just lifted. So, most people would not be able to even make that video. So, I was like, actually, you know, when you think of it that way, that does make a lot of sense. It's quite a good metaphor, I guess, in a way that it can look like something just, oh, I'm just going to do this thing.

But it's actually not a lot of people are able to do that thing because they didn't put in the groundwork beforehand. So what might be easier for that one person, just like the guy you were talking about earlier who can squat over a thousand pounds, right? I'm sure for him doing that, it's not gonna look particularly difficult, but the average person, okay, not...

Let's get in on them, yeah. No, the average person can't even do a quarter of that. So, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, but that's how the world works, man. I get you. So, one of the quotes that I really love is, look equals preparation plus opportunity. And I think that that definitely seems to kind of be what's happened. And I know a lot of the podcast and people that you've been on with recently have focused on the issues and what the actual narrative is around that.

And we can get under that in a second. But for people that are listening and everyone who has some degree of upwind mobility and is on that grind is hoping for that moment, right? That breakout moment. But what you've identified there, I think, is really interesting, which is that the same way as someone who's a stone mason working away with a hammer and a chisel, it's not the hundred strike which actually breaks the stone, it's the 99 that came before that, and you totally correct with what you say that it's all well and good being handed an opportunity

and having this super viral moment. I've recently read a blog that said actually there's a fairly high likelihood of everyone or most people a significant majority of people going viral to one degree or another at some point now because of the way that degrees of separation work online. I mean like, okay, cool. Like that gives you a platform and that is an opportunity. But if you are just going to hope that that, I don't know, creates some springboard out of nowhere and there's no substance behind it. The preparation hasn't allowed you to get ready for the opportunity. There's nothing in there.

So I think there's like a real amount of poetic justice that's kind of occurred with that. Despite the fact that obviously you've worked a lot harder on other things than pulling like, like, a lift off the floor. So you've had a lot of time to view this from a front row seat. What do you think that the reaction to the tweet that you put out? What do you think it says as a commentary? Have you got an overall conclusion of how it's made you feel or your thoughts at the moment? I would say that the thing I've really picked up on over the last few years, but especially over the last few months, I've become more of a public figure and a better known person,

is that there are so many people who feel silence, shall we say. So, so many people were very thankful for that tweet because they've been seeing stuff going on and they're like, oh my gosh, like things are getting observed, things are getting ridiculous, objective reality is being disposed of and whatever, there's millions of people around the world are feeling that, if not billions of people.

And so that tweet was just something that very, in a visual way and in a satirical way, just exposed some of the silliness in the world that people are aware of, right? So this whole idea of, like I said in the comment, you know, the idea of men and women not being different or having the same physical and strength capabilities, right, some of these ideas or the idea that a man

like myself with my beard and my muscles can identify as a woman and everybody is supposed to just accept that I'm a woman and not question it and allow me to compete in women's sports and play rugby against them and box against them and live deadlift against them and all that, right? That's some people are saying this from an ideological perspective, trying to say that that's all fine.

And the vast majority of people do not agree with that. The vast majority of people are like, no, that's ridiculous, that doesn't make sense. That's not based in reality. But for various reasons and societal pressures, they feel like they can't express that, or if they can express it, they can only do it on a very small platform

or perhaps in private. So by me putting that out there, it was kind of like everybody exhaled, I think. I think people are like, Oh, like a part of the guy. He had a guy. Finally, somebody, right? Yeah, finally, someone just said it I think you know I think people are He's the guy. He's the guy. Finally somebody Finally someone just said it and showed it right it's visual as well. So it's like

You I think it's one thing if you read something. It's not I think the video the video as well Just the fact that people saw it and it was a very Clear rebuttal. Yeah of these arguments that people make so it was a very clear rebuttal of these arguments that people make. So it was like, okay, no, he wasn't actually trying during that deadline. And I'm not a professional lifter. I'm not competing in powerlifting or strongest man

or whatever, there's loads of guys who are considerably stronger than me. So the fact that I, a recreational lifter can just go and shatter the women's records as could many other recreational lifters. That kind of puts a nail in the coffin of this idea of, okay, there's no physical differences, which I don't even know how anyone who

inhabits the real world could say to begin with. But I have heard these arguments. I have seen people try to argue that the reason why men are physically stronger and faster is because of socialization. Yeah. And if, if, if girls were raised differently and boys were raised differently, they'd be equally strong.

And you're just, when people say these things, I'm just kind of looking at them blankly, like, what, like, it's a bit like, it reminds me a lot of the Emperor's new clothes. It is. This kind of situation. It is. This kind of situation. It is. I, I, I, mercifully, and I don't know if you agree, the UK to me seems to be at least a little bit more attached to reality than America. Now, I don't know if that's simply because most of the big publishing and social commentator platforms are coming

from America that you hear people like loud with crowd or Joe Rogan or Gavin McGinnis, or whoever it might be talking about these issues. I haven't been personally exposed to any of it in the UK. I'm, you know, pretending. Okay. Oh, I've seen a lot of it here. Really? Is that internet or real life? Both.

Even in the world of music. Okay. Because I've seen this in the world of music, I mean a couple of weeks ago, I was filling out a form. And it got to the section where they compile, you know, at the end of when you fill out a form and they ask you for your gender and ethnicity and that kind of, I can't remember what they call it, that kind of information. Okay, I got to the gender section and there were about six different options in the drop-down list or you could put other and write your own thing. And there was a little asterisk saying, gender is not the same as sex, gender is whatever you personally feel or identify as, okay? I've seen that before. I get down to ethnicity and you can pick your own

ethnicity too. All right, this is on like a professional form and so it says, yeah, similar wording, ethnicity is not the same as race or skin color. It doesn't, it's not necessarily linked to your nationality or your origin. Ethnicity is defined as what you personally feel and what you personally identify as. So according to this forum, I could write down that I'm a Native American woman. And everybody is supposed to take that 100% seriously. And stuff like that, it's just, and there's lots of other things that I've seen,

but yeah, I mean, that was in the UK, that was UK-based. There's quite a, it's happening in the UK too. It's happening in, all the entire Anglo sphere as far as I'm aware, UK, USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand. I don't know if it's maybe the English language, maybe because we don't have gendered nouns and stuff like that. So maybe it's easier for people to get away with this warping of reality. But yeah, so I have seen it trickling in there. And you know, with some stuff, I don stuff, there are certain things I don't really care about.

There's lots of things that I think are silly, but it's like whatever. But when certain lines start getting crossed, then that's where I feel like people do need to step in and draw certain lines and boundaries and go, okay, hang on, this isn't a good idea because X, Y, and Z. you know, having Anthony Joshua identify as a woman and go and compete in women's boxing, that's not a good idea, right? That's not good, that's not safe, that's not fair. That's not, that's not due that, right? But according to certain people's rules, as long as he feels that he's a woman, then according to them, that's okay. And again, it's just no...

Yeah, it's bizarre as well. I feel a lot like I'm trading on eggshells with this sort of stuff. Stephen Wood. Everybody does. Yeah, Stephen Wood for the guy behind rationality rules, very, very big YouTube channel. Philosophy YouTube channel.

Do you know who I'm referring to? I think I've heard of it, but I'm not familiar with the content. Rationality rules is a really good YouTube channel, and this guy understands cognitive biases, ethics, and philosophy to a degree of fidelity, like pretty much probably no one out of young guy as well, just out of university, quarter of a male subs,

and he got a bit of poo on his shoe talking about transgender athletes. And as far as I could see on the video, he maybe didn't have wholly formed views, but it wasn't. It was in no way derogatory as far as I could see, etc, etc. And he gets denounced by the atheist society of America, which is like this company that he's worked up towards for his entire life. And he like, I don't, you people not supposed to be the ones that are the closest to reality, the ones that are the least sort of ideologically bound. Like he should be complete reason, etc. etc. and then he goes on this huge tirade

apology thing. And I'm watching this guy. He's desperately trying to save his YouTube channel. And I get it. Like, you know, I love his content. And it's a shame that it came to that. And maybe he did make a genuine U-turn. But how strong was the backlash that that threatens his YouTube channel? Pretty strong. Like I think, and I think more than anything, his concern was that as soon as he got ratified by this atheist society of America, I think it than anything, his concern was that as soon as he got ratified by this atheist society of America, I think it might be text or something. Do you know I am laughing?

It's because this sounds like I often joke that certain atheists are more religious than religious people. So when you're talking about this atheist society, ostracizing this heretic. It makes me laugh because I'm just like, well, that's extremely, that's like a very, that's a very religious sort of thing, you know what I mean? That's why I thought it was funny. Yeah, I mean, are people trying to find religion in their choice of gender? Are they trying to find religion in their adoption of a political party and stuff like that now? I know that that's something that you have

commented on before and thinking about it, I agree. There's a Alan DeBotten from the School of Life say something similar. He says that our lack of connection to a greater sense of good and a greater sense of belonging. And all of the other things that were the trappings and the trimmings that came along with religion, are actually what people are now trying to substitute into their life. Yeah, I've been saying that for a very long time. I've just got a bigger megaphone now.

Um, because I've observed it, right? I've observed it. The thing is, I think that fundamental, the word religion or religious sort of weird, weird certain people out, they don't really like it. But I think there's almost two ideas of religion. You've got organized, former religion, Christianity, Judaism, Islam, etc. But there's also another meaning of religious, just like someone can go to the gym religiously. Someone can, someone can,

someone can do their, their, someone can work on a computer program religiously. And people know what that means, right? So there's, so human beings do, as far as I'm aware, like this isn't something I've sort of scientifically studied or anything. This is just anecdotal from living on the earth for three decades in a bit. Right, is that most people are, I think people sort of have a, what I'd call a religious core. Okay, and that can be filled with an organized religion, but it can also be filled with strong political ideology, a strong dietary ideology. You get religious vegans, you get religious carnivores, a strong idea that could be sociopolitical, it could be a radical feminism, it could be

football-same. Yes, well, football is very religious. Professional sports is very religious. Yeah. I mean, it's very religious. It's the same circuitry. You see what I mean? It's the same circuitry that those things sort of act on. And so what I do find with, I don't want to,

I don't like to ever group everybody, but with certain people who are atheists who are against religion or whatever, is they can often be religious in a whole different way. You can even be a religious atheist as far as I'm concerned, right? You have people who are there more militants and aggressive and firm in their atheism

than I am in my own Christianity. Do you see what I mean, right? militants and aggressive and firm in their atheism, then I am in my own Christianity. Do you see what I mean? I'm kind of like a humble religious person in that I accept that I could be wrong. Okay, so I believe that God exists. I believe certain things, but I'll be the first put my hands up and say, you know what, I could be wrong.

I could die and it turns out the whole thing that I've been believing was just wrong, right? That's entirely possible. But I've come across certain people and had debates and it's almost like they don't even, they are so firm, they're like absolutely no way on earth that God exists, like you are totally wrong. All these other billions of people are totally wrong.

I know this 100%, I know for certain that there's no afterlife. And I was like, whoa, like, whoa, like, to me, that's weird, because I'm like, I don't know, that's also to me like, wow, that's more hardcore. Yeah, it sounds like a theater craft. They sound like a theater craft, but not being like a theater craft. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, this is this is this is got to what I mean. So it's not it's not to rip on anyone like you do have people who are traditionally religious who are the same who think absolutely this is the one true faith and everybody else is wrong and everybody else is going to hell and everyone who doesn't believe exactly what I believe is Ryan. To me, it's you know that you, you've got to have a level of humility because to me, it's a faith, right? Faith means that you don't, you accept that you don't have

all of the scientific evidence and data and whatever to, you know, I, nobody can write some proof, right? The counter, the counter to every person who believes in God is always, well, what's your proof that God exists? And it's like, well, in a scientific sense, I can't give you like a formula or something that will prove,

I can give you like my logical, rational explanation as to why I think God exists, but I can't give you some rigorous proof that you could in physics or in mathematics or something because you're talking about, you're talking about a whole different dimension of reality as well where I don't even think science sort of applies. You see what I mean? It's like the concept of infinity.

We all kind of know what infinity is, but infinity is beyond our human capability to understand, right? How can you have a number or something that never was always there? It doesn't... It feels like you understand it for two seconds, and then two seconds later, you don't understand it. It's going to end up if you grasp it. I try to hold on a water in your hands. Yeah, I totally agree. Exactly.

A analogous situation that's occurred recently is this Mario Lopez debacle, which is just exploded in America. So for the listeners that don't know what I'm talking about, the guy that played AC Slater in Saved by the Bell that you watched on TV 20 years ago and has done like, he's a host for MTV and he does other bits and stuff. He is for a long time, the super clean, smiley guy on your TV. Fantastic teeth. You know, I mean, he's just there. He's being super positive, he's just getting, he's getting it done. And he said on a, I think it was actually

Candace Owen show. Where he says this. And he says, look, I'm never want to tell anyone how to parent their kids, obviously. And I think if you come from a place of love, you really can't go wrong. But at the same time, my God, if you're three years old and you're saying you're feeling a certain way, or you think you're a boy or a girl, or whatever the case may be,

I just think it's dangerous as a parent to make that determination then, and be like, okay, well, you're going to be a boy or a girl, whatever the case may be. It's sort of alarming, and my gosh, I just think about the repercussions later on. Now that to me is almost a pedestrian paragraph because of because of how many caveats he's had to put in place. It's like it's I'm not this, I'm not being certain here and I'm just going to try and be polite like that in anyone's world that is overly polite, that literally like the boss in its politeness. And he got annihilated. Did you watch the fallout of this? I've seen some of it. Yeah, I've seen some of it. The only mistake he made was apologizing.

The apology, the subsequent apology, the comments I made were ignorant and insensitive, and I now have a deeper understanding of how hurtful they were. Lopas said in a statement, I have been and always will be an ardent supporter of the LGBTQ community, and I'm going to use this opportunity to better educate myself moving forward. I'll be more informed and thoughtful. What do you, what do you thoughts on that? I, his initial statement was completely correct. His apology was disappointing because he should not have apologized. I know why he did, of course. I understand I can only imagine what kind of a fire and pressure he came under from his,

I don't know, producers and colleagues and coworkers and whatever. But if you're his, I don't know, producers and colleagues and co-workers and whatever. But if you're not wrong, don't apologize. And especially, don't apologize to one of these crazy mobs that just goes after you because they go after, you know, they pick targets who they think are vulnerable or weak, right? It's like a herd of lions trying to find the antelope that's limping so that they can all all mob on them in a pack, right? They'll never do it.

They'll never do it one-on-one, but they'll come in a pack and they'll try to attack someone. If you stand firm, then you don't back down, then 48 hours later, they'll find a different target. So, I think you should have just weathered the storm. But yeah, it's, I'm a little disappointed that he, that he backed down to the mob because I thought people would have learned by now, not to make apologies for things you're, not sorry for. If I say two plus two equals four, and someone else thinks it equals five,

and they sent a mob on me to try to get me to say that it equals five, I'm not going to do it. I'm going to say no, it equals four. I don't care how many people are telling me it equals five. It equals four. And the point that he made was actually in quite important because we were talking about certain lines not being crossed. And I think two of those lines which are sensitive,

which are both things we've touched on here. One of them is when it comes to people's safety and security. Okay? So, for example, in the whole sports thing, okay? So if you've got in any sort of physical contact sport or anything like that, if you have people who are biological men competing against women or being in that changing rooms and stuff like that, that's a safety and a security concern that you would have thought that anyone who considers themselves any type of, you don't even need to be a feminist, right?

But you would have certainly thought that lots of the feminists would be up in arms about that. And I know some of them are, but just just any person who's reasonable and is concerned for women would be like, okay, we don't want to do that. That's a bit of a concern. And then the second line that I draw a hard line at is stuff involving kids, man, stuff involving children. I've got, I'm not a parent yet, but I've got nine nieces and nephews. And he was specifically talking about the three-year-old, okay? Three-year-olds don't know anything. Three-year-olds can't make

decisions. Let alone life altering ones that will affect everything from their mental well-being, to their physical bodies, to their ability to reproduce in the future. You want to let someone decide that at the age of three, that is crazy. And that's basically what he was saying. He didn't even say it in all the words that I am. Yeah. But that's a crazy idea. That's not, that's, yeah, I mean, I don't even have the words for it. Well, I mean, my business partner has a two month-year-old and a two and a half-year-old.

OK. And the times that I see that two and a half year old, he is easily five different characters an hour. He's an astronaut, then he's a postman, then he's a dinosaur, then he's doing something else, then he's doing an impression of Daddy, then he's this and the other. And you don't take any of these things seriously. No. Because at that age, children don't know what's best for them, which is the exact reason why the parents are around. The parents are around because if left of their own devices, the children would cause some sort of catastrophe.

They'd ride the dog into a stream or they'd, you know what I mean? Something will go wrong. They'll kill themselves, man. If you leave the average two-year-old alone for a couple of hours in a certain environment, they'll kill themselves, man. If you leave the average two-year-old alone for a couple of hours in a certain environment, they'll kill themselves. There is something dangerous in that room, even if you've nerfed the shit out of everything. There's something in there that they can eat or put in their eye or do whatever it is. You're totally right. Is it child abuse? Is it child abuse to allow children to make those sort of decisions or to support those

sort of decisions? As far as I'm concerned, yes. As far as I'm concerned, yes. I don't think that, you know, once people are adults, once they're 18 plus, let's say, perhaps even a little bit older when you're thinking about brain development, but certainly say 18 plus, then I mean, you're not going you're not going to give it, no one wants to give a child, no one thinks a three-year-old should be able to get a tattoo, no one thinks a three-year, I mean, getting a tattoo is a much more of a minor than going on hormonal treatment or cutting

bits off of your reproductive parts, right? But no one would give a three-year-old a tattoo, even if they really, really wanted one. I have seen some mothers from Newcastle with three-year-olds who've had the rears pierced, though, which is. Yeah, no, I can understand that one more, actually, weirdly. It's slightly less, less long-term repercussions, though. Yeah, yeah. So, you wouldn't give them alcohol to drink. You wouldn't let them, of course, they can't consent to anything sexual. And that's the disturbing thing, because it's like, look, if you're going to let little kids

start consenting to things, then that's, you know, some people say slippery slopes on a real thing, but no, slippery slopes can be a real thing. And it's like, no, children just do not have that agency. Children need to be protective. They can't make their own decisions. They can't consent to things. You can't even let them choose what they want to eat for dinner, because they're just going to want to eat haribo. Yeah.

And I square up. Certainly are. Knowing my business partner's son is exactly what he would choose. What do you want to eat for dinner? Oh, chicken nuggets and haribo and ice cream. It's like, you can't eat that. Not always can't eat. Every day. Yeah, exactly.

You've got to be a parent and be like, no, okay, you're going to have some vegetables. You're going to have some rice. You're going to have some chicken and make you can have, yeah, then you can have a couple of haribo if you're a good boy or a good girl. So on the other side of that fence, there is an argument that could be made from someone

from a difficult leaning in terms of how they look at the world that says well if you're not supporting the child in being what they are, that's child abuse. The opposite side to that. They're wrong. Is that because the starting point is where we need to stick to until someone has agency or sufficient agency? Yeah, and because certain things are... agency. Yeah, and because certain things are certain things have, so what we're discussing here is something with a permanent life altering consequences. Okay. If you are I genuinely

decided that we wanted to go on hormone therapy and live the remainder of our lives as a woman. Zubina or Christine. Yeah, I guess you could still be Chris. Yep. Then people can have their ideas about that. And I may have some reasons why I'm skeptical about that personally. But you're a grown man, I'm a grown man,

and you're an adult and you have agency a grown man, and you're an adult, and you have agency. And if that's the choice you make, then you can do it. But if you are a child and someone wants to put you on hormone blockers or on testosterone or on estrogen or start having surgeries to... I mean, that's going to affect you for the remainder of your life. And it's well known that most people who experience any kind of gender dysphoria in their young age, most people get over it within a relatively short space of time. And it's not even that uncommon.

For example, if you've got a little boy who's got, say they've got three older sisters, okay? It's not that rare that that little boy at some little point might be, oh, I wanna be a girl or he might wanna wear his sister's shoes or her dress or whatever, just because they're surrounded by women. But that doesn't mean that that boy is a girl. Right?

It doesn't mean that, oh, he's actually a girl. So we need to put him on hormones and make sure he doesn't go through puberty property and properly and whatever. And that will affect them. I mean, that's when they do become a reproductive age, they, they want, then won't, might not be able to reproduce. They'll be infertile. They won't be able to have their own children.

They may go through all kinds of psychological problems and issues and physical development issues. I mean, Lord knows what kind of can of worms you're opening. So to let somebody that young make those kind of decisions is utterly, it's reprehensible as far as I'm concerned. It's amazing to me that it even sort of needs to be explained. Like I sometimes there are certain things I wasn't like, man, how am I even needing to just engage in this?

Yeah, why do I even need to justify my position here? And it's such a new thing, it's such a localized thing. I mean, if you go around the world, if you go to anywhere in Africa, anywhere in South America, and almost anywhere in Asia, anywhere in the Middle East, and you start talking about that they'll look at you like you are a complete crazy person. They'll be like, what on earth are you talking about that a two-year-old boy can know? What do you mean? They'll want to lock you up for even talking about it. They're the same species, same genome. Yeah, yeah. It's just...

Diff totally, they're not experiencing the same situations. One of the things that I keep on thinking about and it obviously it's apparent in Mario Lopez's apology is the equivalent exponential growth that you've seen is the same slippery slope on the other side that people can get pushed down from one step of saying maybe it's not a tremendously good idea to let three-year-olds change their gender to your transphobic. And it's this exponential increase. It's a bullying tactic, that's all it is. It's just a tactic, right? People know that if you slap a label on somebody, whether that's racist, sexist, homophobic, transphobic, whatever Islamophobic, whatever phobia or label,

people can try to slap on someone. People do this all day, it's nothing new. It's just a cheap way to try to discredit someone. It's simply a tactic. And it's a really disgusting one. Firstly, because it's slanderous, and secondly, because it minimizes, it dilutes the terms. Okay?

If you call everybody who disagrees with you racist, then you're diluting the term for, you're diluting what racism actually is, and you're minimizing harm that's caused by genuine racism, and you're also providing cover for actual racists. Okay, if I've heard the term race, I see it slung around so much now, both in real life and on Twitter, that I myself, I'm pretty desensitized to it. Okay, if someone's like, oh, that guy's a racist,

my first, you know, if you went back 15 years ago, my gut would be to believe them, and to, oh, oh, what's going on? Whereas now my gut is to be like, oh gosh, they did great with someone. Do you mean, do you mean they're actually a real racist or do you just mean that they're a little bit right wing or they're a bit or they're conservative or they like Trump, you know, and it's it And it's got an sillian. People are just amping up this rhetoric all the time. You're getting people on Twitter saying, oh, everybody who supports Trump, every single

one of you is supporting white nationalism. I'm like, what about the black guys and the Latinos and the black women and all the average people who all like Trump? I mean, you're saying they're all white nationalists? Like, come on, just think, like stop using such ridiculous, you're here criticizing Trump for his rhetoric while saying stuff that's far more inflammatory and divisive than anything that comes out of his mouth.

So it's just people just need to kind of take a step back and chill. It does stop us from getting to the new ones of the discussion as well, right? Because as soon as you go from being anything which isn't zero, if you as soon as you add a one or a two or a three all the way up to 100, you get pushed to 100, which stops, stops the ability to have the virtuous middle, which is actually where the devils in the details, right?

And the rubber meets the road at the point where people want to find out what's the, that's the reason I enjoy doing this podcast. I like to deconstruct stuff so I can find out exactly where the rubber meets the road with particular issues. And it's one of the most interesting things I think you can do when you're conversing with people. But as soon as, like you say, someone that you disagree with gets given a ism or a obia and you're like, well, there we go. The conversation's over. Yeah, they tried it with me. It didn't work.

What isms and obias did they give you? Sexism and transphobia. Okay. Yeah, both for the same tweet as well. But it doesn't stick because it doesn't work. I just make people look stupid when they call me anything like that. And ultimately, it's not true. So it doesn't work. I just make people look stupid when they call me anything like that.

And ultimately, it's not true. So I don't care. If someone says, if someone calls me sexist, I will literally laugh in their face. Okay. I might even agree and amplify just to like make a joke, right? I'll tell them, I don't know. It's not ridiculous. Yeah, it's not ridiculous.

I'll tell them to, I don't know, get back in the kitchen or whatever. Even if it's a guy who says it, just like whatever, it's such a dumb thing to say. Anybody who knows me knows that I'm not sexist. So I'm not gonna go on the defensive and start claiming my righteousness. It's just like, no, go away. Like if you call someone something, the appropriate answer if someone accuses you of something with no evidence and that you're not

is to call them an A-holehole because that's what they're being. No, really, if someone just came up to you, Chris, and was like, oh, you're a racist. Then you don't need to start justifying why you're not. You don't need to go on, they want you to go on the defensive. You don't go on the defensive. You just say, no, well, you're being a jerk. You're a jerk because you have no evidence that I am, and I'm not, and you're accusing me of being this thing. So if you want to have a conversation, stop being a jerk and we can talk,

or the conversation over. But people always feel this need to defend themselves. And people who attack in these mobs, they're very like, they're like, sharks in the water. Right, so since there's a little bit of blood, they're like, oh, we got them, yeah, we got them, we got them, you know, and then they try to find another target and they keep trying to do it to all these different people. And, you know, most people, you know, they do the false apology

and they say that, you know, because the funny thing, okay, and that in that Mario Lopis thing, at no point did he say, why, how or why, what he said was wrong. Yeah, right? He said a sensitive deeper understanding. It's like this. It's like you go on to obiapology.com. You know, you put in a certain number of characteristics and then it spews out this thing because, you know, I mentioned earlier on, rationality rules and Stevens, the first five minutes

of his response video with that, it was that language, that exact language right there. And I don't know, man, I don't know. It's like a struggle session. Yeah. Yeah, you know, in the Soviet Union and in the mouse China, when they used to get people to admit to crimes, that they hadn't committed, right?

And they just get people and they just have that they haven't committed. Right? And they just get people and they just have to say, confess to something. Never they want. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Whatever it is, it's like a new age version of that where you put people up, especially

public figures, you put them up on this thing and they have to give this false apology or admission to a kind of a tone for their sins. And then okay, they can maybe come back in the club, otherwise they get canceled, that's the new term. But I just think people need to really stop giving into this. I mean, it's incredible how many, I get so many messages and emails now from people, especially in the world of entertainment, also in the world of tech and in media, who one, tell me that I'm extremely brave for being as honest in Frank as I am, but then two say that, oh, they can't speak out because they're worried about losing their job or they're worried about losing this opportunity or all this kind of stuff.

And it's just, it's crazy. I mean, we're supposed to be in a free country with free speech and freedom of expression, both in the UK and in the USA. So the idea that people are essentially succumbing to a form of terrorism as far as, it's terrorism, isn't it? Right? If you're, you know, making people so afraid of their repercussions to say what's on their mind

or to express their genuine beliefs or whatever, because you're terrorizing them and, you know, you're making examples out of other people to show what will happen if they step out of line. That's terrorism. It's the heads on spikes as you go into it. Yeah, literally, yeah, literally it is. Mario's head is currently sat on a spike outside of the TV studio.

And the worst thing, he made a really good point about the fact that it dilutes down the people who are actually the problem. And it also doesn't allow those of us who have compassion. And my empathy is crippling, like absolutely crippling for almost anything. I spoke about Daniel Sosick, a comedian with this. And we said that, you know, you see those videos

of dogs coming home to soldiers, like after they've been at war, and I'm just like falling my eyes out at these things. And I can't bet. But the problem is that if you do want to have compassion and try and understand complex situations and someone who is going through gender dysphoria, someone who has suffered with racism, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera,

it's like to be able to, to be able to step into that room and try and understand that, you also have to do all this other stuff as well. You're like, right, I'm gonna have to put this bag on and this bag on and this bag on. And yeah, it's not very helpful. So I think you're right. It'll be interesting to see how many more Mario Lopez

is there are and how many more Zubis there are over the next like five years. You know what I mean? Like that's going to be interesting. And because of the way that popular culture defines and it trickles down into defining what everybody else thinks, it's not actually going to take lots of those situations to occur to actually begin defining culture like ahead of it. I think you know, a lot of those situations to occur to actually begin defining culture like ahead of it. I think a lot of those situations can be like the stone in the river that directs the flow a little bit. So one of the other things I wanted to discuss is Titania Magrath. I don't know how it pronounced her name, Titania Magrath.

Titania Magrath. I believe so. So I have, this is the first time that you listen, as we'll hear it, I've managed to confirm her slash her character to come on the podcast. My goal, she's currently performing Ed and Bafring, if you are at the fringe, 9 PM every night. I've suggested you go and see the show has had fantastic reviews already. What I wanted to do is to get the actress that plays her

to sit down and to have Andrew Doyle, the man who's behind her as her publicist. And I wanted to have this back and forth, but apparently one of the agreements that the actress won't speak in character on interviews, which is really a really good idea because I mean, if people actually begin thinking that she is her all hell will break loose. But there was a tweet that came out that is probably the best one I think I've seen her do, which is if you only have sex with people you find attractive you might want to ask yourself why you're such a superficial bigot.

Oh gosh, I think my favorite one was that being a cis white male is an act of violence or something. That was one of my favorite ones. One of the things that's super interesting about this is because Andrew is British, right? And also, the fact that he got ousted due to a typo from some book publishing thing. I don't know whether you saw this, but the only reason, like, so he never wanted to be the person that's like behind this account, right? For the people that don't know what we're talking about,

it is a fake social justice warrior account satirically going through, saying these sort of things, the absolute extreme example of what you might see on Twitter, got banned, then people like, I think on your account ban this, it's a satire account. These are actually allowed under Twitter's terms of service, it's stipulated, it's satire account, etc, etc. And due to some guy, a book publishing thing accidentally fired on some blog somewhere that it was Andrew as the author. And then everybody trickled down because he's the same guy that is behind

Jonathan Pi as well. Did Jonathan Pi? He does some writing for him, right? Yeah, yeah. So, you know, and apparently now it's just like the all hell. The similar to yourself, like all hell broke loose. But yeah, the fact that he's got that understanding and that nuance strikes it what I was talking about in the UK again. Because again for me, this sort of stuff like cis male and the superficial bigotry and stuff like that, it's not language that I hear, it isn't.

And it's interesting that you say that you have, but yeah, I absolutely can't wait to. You might be protected up there. You're in Newcastle, right? Yes. Yeah, you might actually be somewhat insulated from it up there. You think as it's a bit less cosmopolitan than London, somewhere like that, it's a little bit more. Yeah, and people, I know in Newcastle well,

and people in Newcastle are just, yeah, a bit more in touch and grounded. Spitt and so on, and so on, and so on, and so on, and so on, and so on, and so on, and so on, and so on, and so on, and so on, and so on, and so on, and so on, and so on, and so on, and so on, and so on, and so on, and so on, and so on, and so on, and so on, and so on, and so on, and so on, and so on, andent on the super. Yeah, and sort of sane. Yeah, a lot of these ideas. It's a bit like how in the US, like if you go to the South of the USA or you're sort of in middle America and the Midwest, you're going to get far less of these social, you get to get far less social justice nonsense, right?

They're not running around in Houston and most parts of Texas and Arizona and Kentucky and Alabama. There's no social justice warriors there. But if you go to Portland, you go to Los Angeles, you go to New York, you go to the coastal cities, then that's where a lot more of this ideology is based. So in the UK, I mean, if you're in London or in Brighton, I was going to say, what's the wakest city in the UK? Brighton. Brighton's the wakest city in the UK. Easily. Easily. Yeah. Brighton easily. Yeah. Brighton's the one place where you would encounter people who do genuinely, who use this kind of language and you'll say something, lots of the things that we've said here, they'd find extremely offensive and want us to apologize

for and start giving you a lecture on why you, as a privileged cis white male, should not be saying certain things or perhaps you should even be speaking to me in a certain way as a person of color. And all that stuff. Should you be speaking to you in a certain way as a person of color and all the right. All all all that stuff. Should you be speaking to you in a certain way as a person of color? I don't even I hate that term. I don't even use it. It's just silly. Yeah, it's it's really interesting. Joe Rogan recently went through a breakdown of person of color and colored person and like the fact that you can rearrange the same words in a sentence and one way is currently accepted and one way was accepted but now isn't accepted.

Yeah, yeah, it's silly. I don't use terminology of my ideological opponents, shall we say? Although I don't like to view people as opponents, I like to just view people as people, but I guess I oppose certain ideas. Okay, I try not to, I try to separate people from ideas. So I've encountered people who, you know, have some of these bizarre ideas and I don't agree with them on them, but as long as we can have a conversation and be decent to each other and, you know, maybe agree to disagree, maybe we'll change each other's minds on certain things from time to time, then it's all good. But I don't think it's just some ideas that I don't think are a net benefit to society.

So anything that I feel is that way, then I will most likely oppose. Yeah, I understand. So to finish off one of the things that I wanted to ask, I appreciate that you understand this with a lot of new ones. And you are someone who... It seems kind of similar to Jordan Peterson, a little way. Like, the way that when the left decided to pick on him, it's like they picked on the wrong fucking guy

So bad and it's like the same with you like if there was someone that was gonna come to the front It was going to be someone who Like or really could be first off class as a minority So you've got that card to play like whenever you want right? You've got like the race card in your pocket And then you've got and then you've got your ability, lyrically, to write, to speak, to do all of these different things. You are someone who, I feel is, you know, hopefully well equipped to deal with whatever the fuck the future's

got in store for you, going on your own, pretty soon. So that is going to make a big change. So, for some of the people that are out there, how would you suggest that they go about viewing the world, tools or tactics with regards to skepticism or conduct or however you think, have you got some advice for people about how they navigate the next sort of two, two years, five years? Well, well, you mentioned Jordan Peterson, so I'll take one of his rules, which is tell the truth or at least don't lie. I think that's important. I'm really big on authenticity, and I always have been both in my music and outside of

it, just trying to be honest and not say things that maybe are beneficial or might seem expedient in the short term, but in the long term are likely to do you damage or get you caught in some sort of web of lies. So just being honest. And then, yeah, that goes further to sort of standing your ground, standing your ground, but also being not as in digging yourself in on an idea and not allowing other people to challenge it. No, no, no, like do the opposite

of that. Get outside of your echo chamber. But don't be afraid. Don't crumble at the first question, right? If someone challenges something or someone wants you to apologize for something that you're not sorry for, then you don't have to apologize. And it would be an empty apology anyway. If I do something and I'm not sorry about it and I'm forced into some kind of apology, then I'm still not sorry about it. It's just, you're just saying the words. Yeah, I said the words, but that doesn't really,

that doesn't really mean anything. And then beyond that, I guess just being, being trying to be open-minded and talk to different people of different viewpoints, and you know, if you've got something that you're, or and you know, just be willing to learn and be willing to have your mind changed. It's a, the reason any of us know anything is because we've been wrong in the past. Okay, pretty much everything you know is because you are wrong at some point. So if you are never wrong or you feel like you're never wrong, you're probably

not learning anymore. Probably not updating the OS appropriately. Exactly, exactly. Every day, you should be being wrong about something almost every day. Nothing catastrophic, right? Yeah. But yeah, you should be, oh, okay. Someone, I say something and then you're like, oh, no, actually, that it, uh, look at this is the data or these are the facts or have you thought this, you know, if I'm being intellectually honest, if it's a better argument or it's a fact that goes against what I believed, it's like, oh, okay, no, you're right. And then I incorporate that into my thing and then hopefully the next time you have a conversation with the next person, you're a little bit wiser and that

Continues to happen and I kind of look forward to It's one reason I'm not so worried about getting older is like I look forward to Seeing just how much I'll know and the whole kind of person I'll be in 10 years and 15 years and 20 years Because that's when yeah, that's when it should all start peaking and I think that's why someone like Jordan Peterson his rise has just been crazy because it's when, yeah, that's when it should all start peaking. And I think that's why someone like Jordan Peterson, his rise has just been crazy. Because it's really interesting. I mean, it's rare for someone to become world famous in their mid fifties, isn't it? But it's almost, but you were talking about that, that striking. And it's like he's been building up and building up and building up.

And then he's sort of in his... The century of... Yeah, literally. Literally. And then when the spot light came on him, it was like, Oh my gosh, yeah, this is you fools. This isn't even my final form. Yeah, literally. I was like, whoa, like this guy's a Phoenix just sort of like, whoa, like, absolutely. This guy's a force, you know, but had the

spotlight been on him maybe 20 years ago or 30 years ago, it wouldn't have been, he wouldn't have formulated his ideas and been able to articulate them in the way that he does, which is very masterful. I went to see him live last year and it was really interesting. It's very, what did you see him? Oxford. Oh, cool. I saw him at the Manchester show. Manchester show is fantastic as well. Yeah, yeah, and it's really interesting because it's, yeah, I mean, it's weird. He's touring like a rock star just doing these talks. I know. Shout it about, shout it about things that you could not pay me to go. And you couldn't have paid me to go and learn about that 15 years ago. And now I'm like, I'll put my hand in my pocket if you want.

Yeah, it's interesting. And you know, it's so tropey now to talk about John Peterson, but being precise with your speech, telling the truth, being friends with people that want the best for you, all of those sort of things, they're fantastic rules to live by. Yeah, I really, genuinely, genuinely do hope that there is a John Peterson future ahead for you, man. I think that you, tentatively, I hope that you have the skills to navigate the space and to be a really, a really interesting balancing voice going forward.

Obviously, we need to get another 15 kills on your squat. Um, but once we've done that, you know, I really do think that there'll be a lot of, a lot of world that you feed for you to kind of play around with and I genuinely am super excited to see what the next year sort of particularly for yourself has in store and I'm very feeling very fortunate to hopefully be a part of that genesis process and kind of help you along the way as well. I appreciate that Chris, thank you very much man. Today's been awesome.

Anybody who wants to find out anymore get at Zooby Music on Twitter, where else can they go? Is the website anything else? Yeah, sure. So I'm on Twitter at Zooby Music, same handle on Instagram, YouTube, and Facebook as well at Zooby Music.

And my website is zoobymusic.com. I've also got a merchandise website where you can get my music and merch, which is teamzooby.com. Fantastic. All links to everything that we've spoken about will be in the show notes below. If you've got any comments or any feedback about today, obviously it's quite a nuanced and interesting conversation. The comments are always open or at Chris Wellex, wherever you follow me.

But for now, Zuby, man, thank you so much. Good luck with Joe when you're out in the States and I'll catch you next time. Thanks, bro. I appreciate it. Have a good evening.