Modern Wisdom - #1005 - Warren Smith - J.K. Rowling & The Cost of Speaking Freely

Episode Date: October 11, 2025

Warren Smith is a filmmaker, educator, and host of the “Secret Scholar Society” YouTube channel. If freedom of speech can be shouted down, does it really exist? When every debate turns into partisan noise, what does honest discourse even look like? If we can’t talk about our problems without resorting to anger or violence, how can we ever solve them? Expect to learn why J.K. Rowling has become such a lightning rod for cultural backlash and why she’s back in the news, why limiting conversation only makes problems worse, whether free speech can truly exist if it can be shouted down, whether young people’s growing support for political violence stems from conviction or desensitization, the fine line between correct and incorrect behavior, what William thinks about today’s rising tribalism, and much more… Sponsors: See discounts for all the products I use and recommend: https://chriswillx.com/deals Get 10% discount on all Gymshark’s products at https://gym.sh/modernwisdom (use code MODERNWISDOM10) Get 5 Free Travel Packs, Free Liquid Vitamin D, and more from AG1 at https://ag1.info/modernwisdom Sign up for a one-dollar-per-month trial period from Shopify at https://shopify.com/modernwisdom Extra Stuff: Get my free reading list of 100 books to read before you die: https://chriswillx.com/books Try my productivity energy drink Neutonic: https://neutonic.com/modernwisdom Episodes You Might Enjoy: #577 - David Goggins - This Is How To Master Your Life: https://tinyurl.com/43hv6y59 #712 - Dr Jordan Peterson - How To Destroy Your Negative Beliefs: https://tinyurl.com/2rtz7avf #700 - Dr Andrew Huberman - The Secret Tools To Hack Your Brain: https://tinyurl.com/3ccn5vkp - Get In Touch: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/modernwisdompodcast Email: https://chriswillx.com/contact - Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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J.K. Rowling is back in the news. How do you feel about her recent debacle? I can understand where she's coming from. I think it was effective. I don't see any problems with it. I can understand why she would say that. I would probably feel the same way if I were in her position, honestly. Yeah, she's become a lightning rod.

So for the people that didn't hear, Emma Watson went on Jay Shetty's podcast, said some stuff, and it seems at least from the outside like she's starting to sort of row back some of the condemnation that's been there because maybe it's not as sort of trendy as it used to be and this is kind of the big complaint

that everybody has do you actually stand on this principle or are you just blowing with the fucking wind and I think JK in this big tweet that's had like 46 million impressions, which is that's enough. That's enough to get people to take notice.

She literally says it. Like basically, if it wasn't for the fact that she had to say that she loves and treasures me, JK wouldn't have piped up. But she is now beginning to detect this change maybe in the sort of cultural weather vein. And, yeah, dude, be careful what you say on the internet.

Yeah, I think she's just Emma Watson's being opportunistic. it's interesting though that the tide is turning in that way that's how you can tell that it really is or when people start to perform differently like that and it's all for business interests I think probably but jk rolling I mean if it wasn't for jk rolling I wouldn't be talking to you right now either so some of those things applied I was when I was reading through that tweet He's J.K. Rowling messaged me in the wake of my firing, and that really meant a lot to me. I think authenticity is something that's really important to her.

But yeah, she's a remarkable person to do that, to take the time to do that. So I have a soft spot in my heart for her, always will. Why do you think she's such a lightning rod for this stuff? What's uniquely interesting about her position? Well, I think it's first and foremost that her work is the best-selling book in the world next to the Bible. It's for millennials, it's our Star Wars. It's more than that. So she created this, she became richer than the queen off of fiction. So there's that.

But I mean, her position, I think, is rather mainstream conventional. It's not risque in any way. And I think that's why that's one of the. reasons. I think it's become such a zeitgeist. People, when they listen to it, it's like, this is very reasonable. It seems very logical. That's part of the reason why

that video of me talking to the student did what it did, because it's just so common sense, it seems like there's nothing crazy about her position. Could you give a 30,000 foot view recap? I know it was a little while ago now, but just for the people that don't know the Warren Smith law,

just do the previously on this season. Yeah. So I was teaching content creation, multimedia. We were supposed to do a newscast. Student was feeling kind of nervous. So I said, let's do a warm up. I'll sit here in the chair. What do you want to talk about? Just ask me, we would do things like this, have a little podcast. And she's like, well, how have your views on JK Rolling changed, given her bigoted opinions? It's like, okay, well, when you say bigoted opinions, what are you basing that on? Well, these, there's all these tweets. She said, I can show them to you. If you'd like to

see sure let's let's pull them up so he pulls them up we run through them the whole exchange was five minutes I didn't think it was that interesting or that crazy but that's and then I uploaded it to like my little rinky dink YouTube channel where I had clips of me teaching and I called it like my teaching portfolio because we had to submit artifacts for teaching our portfolio and I would have clips of me teaching and someone grabbed it and pulled it over to twitter where i was not active on twitter and that's where it made crazy yeah and then what happened a couple months went by everything changed very quickly two days after that pierce morgan had me on for like a 15 minute conversation i was completely out of my depth and i came in the next day and just acted like nothing

happened and that didn't work. Denial is always a wonderful strategy, I think. Well, yeah, no, it didn't work. And then that afternoon, because Pierce Morgan, his producers, they just want the flavor of the day. So they jumped right on it. They're like, well, you do this. And I was working with one teacher. We used to record in this space. So after that we set the space up and started once a week making videos and so I told him I was like they want me to come on Pierce Morgan what should I do like is the school going to get mad but he's like yeah they'll get mad but it's like just do it you know just because if I ask they're just going to give me some long thing that I think they'll make it impossible whatever it is

forgiveness than yeah it's it's I knew I was in the midst of a once in a lifetime opportunity and I was at a fork in the road it's like do you make the most of this and I didn't know where it would go at that time all it was was one little video you know but there was the potential to try and make something so i did it it went on pierce morgan and then the next day they kind of got pissed but then i had to meet with all the lawyers and they called me in with the head of the school and who's never there um but she was there for that it they said well you didn't break any rules you didn't you have the releases this and you didn't reveal any information you you handled it delicately.

You didn't really take a biased position. So they literally said congratulations. You know, and then several, there were teachers there that were upset with solely on my position, my position around JK Rolling, which, yeah, I think it's unfair to call her bigoted, but I didn't really say that in the video, but that's where the student arrived at. So they took it as a position. And there were people coming up to be like, how? were you not fired. I didn't. They said I didn't do anything wrong with it, you know,

and but there were people that were upset. And it just kind of, but we kept making in this space, kept making videos once a week and it was getting a little bit of traction. And I think they just were waiting until the storm blew over to be able to pounce it. And I get it from a business perspective it can be a liability if you have a teacher making YouTube videos and people are actually

watching them to some extent even though it's very small back then but it was the way they did it like I would understand if they'd be like yeah it's not quite our cup of tea it's just a bit of a liability

so we're going to part ways but that wasn't what happened at all it was like we'll sign this NDA we'll pay you to sign this NDA felt like they were just trying to destroy me dude it was crazy it was one of the most challenging periods of my life for sure yeah so that's that's the lore what have you come to reflect on with regards to that difficult

time i think a lot of people maybe not quite so publicly maybe not with quite so many eyeballs but people go through periods where they get kicked in the nuts a lot and it seems to happen sequentially in bunches. With the benefit of hindsight now, how do you think about that experience as part of the arc of your life?

Well, it was the period that shaped me. It's one of the laws of narrative. Like if you're trying to write a screenplay, you have to have obstacles for the hero to overcome or whatnot. And we're all trying to become the heroes in our own story, whether we want to admit it or not. And the more adversity, like, literally the week before that video went viral was watching the David Beckham documentary. And I said, this is a really good documentary. And this really resonates because he was getting knocked down.

He was struggling. And that made it compelling. And then his son becomes a soccer player in the documentary. I don't care about this guy at all because he had no adversity. he just handed this opportunity. I was like, so for some reason that was in my mind just at that time. I wouldn't change anything.

I got lucky. I was walking a knife's edge, but I made it through. It was scary. It was really difficult. But it's, I wouldn't change. Because if you make one adjustment,

who knows how that would. So I wouldn't change anything, but it was, It's been remarkable. It was, I would describe it as like, because I've been a genuine fan of this space. I've been watching your show, long time, the people I've gotten to meet. Imagine watching your favorite football team. And suddenly overnight, you're given this opportunity to be on the field and Tom Brady's

throwing you the football and you catch it. Now you just, I'm going to run as far down this field until someone tackles me, see how far I can get that was my mentality and that's what i'm doing you know yeah it's a i resonate with that um the turning idols into rivals or friends is uh like a really weird sensation um it's a very bizarre thing and it takes a little bit of time for you to sort of come back down to earth And, you know, everybody can play it off as cool. And I think a lot of people in this space do. And after a while you habituate, you're like, oh, there's Andrew Huberman or, oh, there's

fucking Joe Rogan or whatever. Like, oh, there's Matthew McConaughey and Matthew McConaughey on the other week. And you do habituate to it in some ways. But there's a bit of me that doesn't want to. There's a bit of me that doesn't want to habituate to this. There's a bit of me that wants to say, yo, my favorite movie in history is interstellar. And the main guy knows me personally by name and has my phone number. Yeah.

That's fucking sick. Like, I should be fired up about that. Like, I should, I should, every time that happens, I should be really excited and enthusiastic. I shouldn't be like, cooler than cool. Yeah, it's just all, it's old fucking Matt over there, you know, double M or whatever. Like, no, like, that's fucking sick. Like, let it enthuse you.

That's how I felt when J.K. rolling sent me that message and was like, can I do anything to that? That's the most treasured, like, message I've gotten. It's just a message. but it's surreal that was so surreal yeah so and i don't i didn't know how to respond to it and i still think about it now that she's back in the news with everything we're talking about i was like man i hope i didn't say anything like emma watson yeah i think it was fine um yeah you've got a uh a quote that says when conversations are not allowed to occur it only makes the problem worse

yeah we've seen that for sure and that's similar to something that's been kind of going viral that Charlie Kirk said, is like when conversations, when we stop talking, that's when bad things happen. That's when violence occurs. So yeah, I think conversations are absolutely essential. There's only really two forms of communication that has impact. There's words and then there's violence. Like that, I can't think of what else there is. Like, I guess music, but you're not really communicating much through music.

Yeah, there's words and action. you know I describe it as like words or the boats floating on the surface and we really communicate most of what we really think I think through nonverbal communication and action and back to the narrative idea with actors that's what people like Matthew McConaughey really dig into is the subtext in the scene they understand that the words are just the tools and anybody given enough time can memorize that script but what Matthew McConaughey does so well is everything else beyond the words it's it's kind of going off on a tangent there, but that's how I think about, but conflict is a form of action for sure. I was thinking about this. I did this retreat recently, and it's the most intense thing that I've ever done, and I spent 12 hours a day from 9 a.m. until 9 p.m. basically working with emotions on a farm in Sonoma County. And I still, to be honest, don't fully know what to make of it.

I haven't come back down to planet Earth fully yet. but one of the things that I did realize is the amount of information that was conveyed during the exercises and the practices and the processes that we were going through as a group and in pairs and on our own so much of it was not about words so little of it was actually about words however if you look at how most people communicate it is through mediums that exclusively transact in words. There's no body language over message. There's not really even that much body language over what we're doing right now. There's just there's the the aperture through which you're seeing this is squeezing this communication down and like you can

sit with somebody and without getting into woo energy astral realm fucking five dimensional territory. You can sit with someone and you can tell if that person that sat opposite you is calm and peaceful or agitated or sad without saying a fucking word, right? Okay, but all of that type of communication has been lost. And I wonder whether it has, um, it feels to me like it's led everybody, it's encouraged everybody to really lean into hypertrophying the word talking portion of things and completely pushing to one side that well okay well how do I feel right now like what is the emotional context that's going on here how is this other person showing up what are the things that aren't being said what's the pacing between the words that they're saying what's

the tone that they're saying this in especially you have a text message all of this stuff is lost and um it reminded me working with emotions for an entire week and basically doing like navy seal boot camp for fucking feeling your feelings um really drilled it home to me how low resolution almost all of our communication is now. And, okay, what are the implications of that if you keep on spinning it up? Yeah. Yeah, it's nothing replaced in person for sure. Yeah, I don't really know what to say about that.

That's well put, though. Political violence attitudes, some new data that's just come out. The percentage of students who support using violence to stop a campus speech is up 10 points from 2021, that's 34% against 24% 47% of Gen Z agree that violence can be justified to advance a political goal. That's against 22% of boomers, 47, 22. In 2025, 38% of US college students said violence is acceptable to prevent hate speech on campus, and 71% of students are at least accepting of shouting down speakers and 54% of physically blocking other students from attending a campus speech. I recently did a video on an independent journalist, the guy with the camera,

on Emerson campus, which is my college, where I still teach like one class online, but I went there for grad school and I've taught there. And he asked the students about that 34% survey, and their response was, I'm surprised it's not higher. At heart, Harvard as well. He went to Emerson and then Harvard. He asked that specific question. He goes, well, why? What do you mean? Well, Harvard's very liberal. I was just thinking, think about what you're saying. Like, think about the logic there. It's, well, liberals believe that violence is a legitimate form of response to speech. It's just crazy. It's been a crazy time, man, after Charlie Kirk. what's your what's your post-mortem culturally on this it's i think it's getting worse because there's that period right after it where people are walking on eggshells the people that disagree with them people are being very careful and kind of sympathetic with those that disagree with them many there's a lot of crazy people that this doesn't apply to it's kind of this period of

morning and then that passes and the mood the new cycle picks back up events continue and it and people kind of revert back to their their older ways we're seeing what's happening at portland i just think it's it's not looking good is my overall take i think it was very illuminating though seeing those responses which has been some of a big wake-up call for me and I've been trying to shine a light on that as much as I can through these videos but that hit me hard seeing that at Emerson because but it didn't surprise me but I'm hoping that people I know like my family that disagrees with me will see we'll kind of understand more about where I'm coming from because it's like look this is like literally where I was

I was sitting next to these kind of people for years. This kind of, maybe this can explain a little bit of why I am the way I am now or whatnot, because I know they're struggling with understanding that around me. So that's been, I think a lot of, it's been a wake-up call for some people. But I'm generally my responsibility.

I'm deeply concerned about it where this could go. This episode is brought to you by Jim Shark. You want to luck and feel good when you're in the gym. and gym shark makes the best men's and girls gym wear on the planet. Let's face it, the more that you like your gym kit, the more likely you are to train. Their hybrid training shorts for men are the best men's shorts on the planet. Their crest hoodie and light gray mall is what I fly in every single time I want to plane. The geo-seemless t-shirt is a staple in the gym for me.

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What are you deeply concerned about and where could it go? Well, so just yesterday we had Nick Shirley in Portland. The last video I did was covering him. And a guy comes up to him, Antifa, and he threatens to shoot him because he was putting camera and his face and then two snipers on top of the roof lay up this is what it looks like from the video paint with their lasers on him and nick point he's like dude there's a sniper pointing at you right now and there's a dot on his chest and it gets him to deescalate and back off i think it's only a matter of time until it's not just painting a target and someone pulls the trigger

on either side and that's where I'm worried that something is going to happen that's going to escalate things more so than Charlie Kirk being shot well what do you mean by more so

because what is it that doesn't make that the escalation we've had this event which has occurred you're presumably one of the things let's say that that event hadn't occurred and you were noticing these rumblings below the surface Charlie Cook being shot would be the precise sort of thing that would be the sort of thing that would be an escalation

so we've seen this one so does it do you feel a little bit like there was a bunch of kerosene on the ground and someone lit a match and flicked it but it happened to land just like a little bit off it didn't quite catch fire to everything else but that might not be the case if another inflammatory sort of event occurs well yeah the kerosene was definitely there it is interesting to note that there was not there was not a massive response from

Charlie Kirk fans we'll just say people on the right or whatnot there was not rioting and yeah that's been pointed out but I think my concern would be but that same event with the opposite side of the political spectre we've seen BLM we've seen BLM we've

seen the riots that tend to there seems to be a tendency for certain ideologies tend to be more inclined to demonstrate frustration in different ways so in a way it's it's like that's bad they threw something really bad at the world and a small sliver of hope perhaps comes out of the fact that we were able to handle it or this side was able of the spectrum it didn't go bonkers I don't have a I mean aren't don't you feel in a way like this could go south am I am I off for feeling like this there's potential here for this to because you're right that was an escalation I'm glad it didn't spark off into violence not there's no rioting yes there's protests going off in Portland around other topics but

I mean, what are your thoughts on it? I think you're right to be concerned. It does say a lot that we've kind of become desensitatiate. We were talking about the habituation earlier on, like, oh, there's J.K. rolling in my DMs. It's like, oh, there's a huge, like another assassination attempt on a real public figure in the space of 12 months. And I don't, it's strange, especially given that I'm still in my, my feely feels after after my week working on emotions it's strange that we are able to continue moving forward that you can get up and go to work that like that's just a thing that happens and

I guess you know humans need to fucking put bread on the table and go to the bathroom and walk the dog and stuff but it it doesn't exactly fill me with hope that this is although horrific and an atrocity just another news story that you know the world continues spinning and yeah we've got charlie kirk remembrance day i think which was passed which which is a very nice tribute but yeah i one one question that i do have that i realized while you were talking there how do you square the circle of what you brought up which is um hinting at a tendency for the left, at least parts of the left in its current iteration, to be more kinetic, BLM, riots, et cetera, et cetera, how do you square that circle with some of the reports

that I've seen coming out from maybe domestic threats, maybe FBI statistics saying that most of the domestic terror concern comes from right of center groups as opposed to left of center groups. Have you seen this? Do you know what I'm talking about? No, is this the study that people were saying, oh, they removed it or something? No, I'm not familiar with that study. Basically, it seems like a lot of the, some of the studies suggest that it is groups right of center that are the biggest threat. I just wonder, taking my big, broad perspective of the news stories that have really come across me over the last half decade, I would say the same thing. You know, we saw, what was that place where everybody, Charlottesville,

do you remember Charlottesville? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, when was the last time that we saw something like a Charlottesville? I can't remember. Yeah, I don't, I can't remember either, well, January 6th, they would probably. There we go. Yes, that is true. That was quite a big one says it all that I've managed to forget that um so yeah fair enough maybe maybe you're right maybe it's maybe it's equal on both sides um i don't i'm not saying it's equal but it's i've been trying to look at this not through the lens of because it becomes a reductive game it's to try and your side equivocate your side yeah your side did january 6 and this and you did this on this date and our side it's like we're not yeah i just think how many january 6th is one BLM how many yeah yeah because

My initial response, and this is the, I think for many people, it was like, this is not right verse left. This is good versus evil. But then it's like, wait a minute, but that's exactly what can, that's a dangerous game to play because that's what can drive people to kill someone like Charlie Cook because they think they're facing genuine evil. I have friends that have kind of tossed me away because it states, what's a friendship when you're genuinely up against fascism and genuine evil in their minds? which is in their minds what I stand for. So you've got to be very careful how you diagnose that. So I've been reducing that down to its correct behavior versus incorrect behavior, really, because there's also plenty of Democrats or liberals that aren't celebrating Charlie Kirk's death. And that would say, you're ridiculous for saying these things. So it's not just Democrat, Republican. So there's going to be people with incorrect behavior on.

the right side and the less side. But I think there's something about the ideology of or this way of thinking that has flourished from postmodernism, a victim mentality, it resonates with a certain personality that seems to me to resonate more with mass protesting, more inclination towards what we saw around the riots, Summer of Love, BLM riots. I do there is something within the ideas reflected largely on this side echo with certain types of action versus the ideas reflected on we'll just say the traditional conservative family more religious values the personal responsibility have a family these that conserve the great traditions of the past

there's not as much inclination what I just said towards burn it down as opposed to world all being oppressed by this by the west burn it down which is literally baked into the ideology yeah it's interesting isn't it because the burn it down thing i didn't know it feels a little bit like if you were to if you were to tell somebody from 10 years ago that it would be uh people on the right that weren't responding to this sort of stuff in a kinetic way i think that might be a little bit surprising you know you um one of the big concerns that lots of people have have who are in the center is that if the left keeps on poking the bear, then the right is going to respond eventually, which it sounds like is one of the concerns you have, or you just get

escalating violence on all sides. But the right is really fucking well armed. And there's probably a lot of people in there that are ex-military and et cetera, et cetera. So like if you were to just take the attributes of both sides, you should assume, I think, that right is like, fucking hell. like those guys are going to be pretty quick on the on the trigger like defending myself defending my beliefs defending um my uh tribe in that way uh as opposed to a group that on the surface is like more compassionate more open um and it doesn't seem to be necessarily playing out that way yeah i think it's unlikely that we'll see a civil war in the way we think of civil war where it's literally and organized

they have declared themselves independent and they are rebelling against it would be the federal government with all the military and police I think that's unless it was some bizarre like certain states when I just can't imagine it

so when I'm talking about escalating conflict it's I don't necessarily mean as a civil war it's something something like much more invisible less more difficult to see that i don't i don't know i don't think it's yeah all right so going back to the uh the stats about um campus being shouted down yeah

if free speech can be shouted down does it even exist at all like what does it mean when comes into contact with a human arm-in-arm blockade. That's a good question. I would say philosophically, it still does exist because, yes, rights are always, I got into a pickle around this, Andrew Wilson was talking about this. Rights are bound by force. He's someone who claims that rights all come down at the end of the day to what can be enforced, So your right to freedom of speech, it's only if it still is going to be bound by force.

It's only if you can protect it. But yes, I can be, people can shout me down, but that doesn't negate within the context of the legal system. Like it doesn't negate my right. But functionally. Yeah, in the moment, functionally, you're shouting me down. Yeah. I understand, spoken like a true academic, that the, the, the theory, the principle, the philosophy of pre-speech is still there. But if it can't be

actioned in the real world, is that, am I being stupid here? Or is this like a big moment? No, it would just have to be at such a large scale for it. Because, okay, they shout me down on the college campus. I go make a YouTube video about it and I reach way more people. So, but in that moment on the college campus, yes, but I have this kind of, my personal philosophy, and I can't is that there's objective truth the fabric of reality which is reflected by this what I call the audience kind of when you make a YouTube video it's this thing that it's not just a massive people but and you can't you can't ignore there's no escaping them so if they shout me down on the campus you they can't escape the audience which reflects the fabric of reality so then

I do make a video about it it's almost like their actions compounded and it draws more attention to it because they're taking an action against something that I think is very much real. These are not just social constructs. The idea of freedom of speech, yes, we have these conceptualizations of them. That's how we use the words floating on the surface

to articulate it. But I think these are the same idea are the founding fathers put forth with these truths are self-evident from God, objective truth, whatever you want to substitute there, but that's the fabric of reality. and so there's no the odd people can make noise but nothing can change what is that objective truth

that we're striving for and I think that's what knowledge is is trying to map onto what is truth which is the exact opposite of postmodernism though and that's where it gets interesting before we continue you are probably not eating in a fruit and vegetables you know it this is going to help AG1 just released their next gen formula which is a more advanced clinically backed version of the product I've been drinking every day for years, delivering more than 75 vitamins, including your multivitamin, pre-and-probiotic, superfood greens, and more. And for the first time, they've added new flavors, tropical, citrus, and berry, only available in the US and Canada, sorry for that.

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got nothing to lose. Right now, you can get a year's free supply of vitamin D3K2 and AG1 travel packs plus that 90-day money-back guarantee by going to the link in the description below or heading to drinkag1.com slash modern wisdom. That's drinkag1.com slash modern wisdom. Do you think government funding should hinge on whether a university actually protects dissenting voices? Protects dissenting voices. I do. There's a big conversation to have around tax, why taxpayers are financing places like Emerson, they get so sneaky in those parameters. So for example, Emerson just changed what used to be the social justice center

because of this very issue, what you're describing. They just changed the name to the Office of Equal Opportunity. Because equality is equal opportunity. Equity is equal outcome. they learned and that's what colleges are doing but then you see the video content or you talk to students and they're I'm surprised it's only 34% celebrating Charlie Kirk's Berger it's so but yeah my answer to you would be yes I don't think I'm very skeptical about the government providing tax money to these universities it doesn't seem to me like children and

young people, students are being taught to resolve problems constructively. This feels like a skill issue. Yeah, I mean, I think it's because so few of the professors,

the people that would be having the conversations, have differing opinions. It's just overwhelming. It's impossible to even articulate, unless you see it for yourself. which is what I'm trying to do with the videos. It's the closest I can do is when I see footage like that,

that's when I get most excited. Like my favorite video I ever made was Joe Rogan talking to a postmodern professor on his show. Because to me, that was like, finally I can shine a light where this is a real professor who's saying these things with his own words. Because I could talk till I'm blue in the face about postmodernism. Jordan Peterson's done it. And people just don't believe you or they just roll. their eyes and it's too philosophical like they don't but then you hear him get up there and say no

there's no such thing as knowledge objective truth everything is a social construct he's effectively he's making it crystal clear that there's no such thing as the fabric of reality to strive for because knowledge is evolving therefore his logic is we don't really know anything and we've you could see where that goes. I guess my point is, like, it's just, you have to hear it straight from the horse's mouth. And that was one example where I was able to do that. He's literally saying it to you. So if this doesn't show you, I don't know what will.

Yeah. It feels a little bit to me like inverse exposure therapy. So the fact that so few alternate voices are going on to campus. that whatever, some absurd percentage of student self-censor for fear of being judged and shamed by their fellow classmates, that you have a changing, shifting demographic when it comes to who is teaching at universities as well. You even have a shifting demographic of who's attending universities, right? A significant increase in women going versus men. And it it's very difficult to be a university professor that didn't go to university so like that is

your stock of future professors are the ones that are going and uh all of these things together it's a great great study by corey clark you should have a look at it it's stinks of you it stinks of your channel oh brilliant and um uh she sent a survey to every psychology professor in the u.s didn't get a response from all of them got a big focus in response, talking about what topics should not be allowed. And there's a huge sex difference. There's a massive sex difference between men and women. And there's a huge difference. It was really, really interesting. My point is, when you take this milieu altogether, what you end up with is students basically never hearing top down, like side to side, or random inclusions

of other people from speakers and guests and stuff like that, there is this ever actually and inside out, right, with their own self-censorship. There is just this a increasing fragility or an increasing sort of unidimensionality, unidimensionality to the type of topics that they're being exposed to. Does that all make sense? yeah no that's it's absolutely true it's just worse than it's it's you're absolutely right i'm right words but it's worse than i'm right words there's no words this is the limitation of words like there's no words to capture what is actually happening how so so so when i'm making these YouTube videos. It's like, or just this whole thing. We've been talking about the desensitization of

this medium and how you, oh, it's so and so. And it all becomes, it all starts to feel it's just online. It's just about making content for sponsors so I could put food on the table and you lose sight of it. Then something happens. Bang, Charlie Kirk gets killed. And it was, it's, and other things have happened. I returned home in the wake. Last year, last Christmas, I returned home. It's like re-entering the real world, sitting there with my childhood friends who literally, so I had just been fired before soon, they said similar to how people responded to the Charlie Kirk thing in many cases, I'm sorry you lost your job, Warren, but you did say this

about J.K. Rowling. So what do you expect? And walking through, literally, step, by step logically, like, the flaws that she's pointing out are completely fair to have those concerns. It's a reminder that this is real. There's something at stake here. And when Charlie Kirk died, it suddenly, it was a wake-up call. It's not just, it was, it's not just about sponsors, money and stuff. I forgot where, but I forgot where we were going with that. It's more than just words. It's hard to capture the reality of how crazy this stuff really is. Yeah, what do you think is going on with young people's support of political violence?

Is it because of conviction, desensitization? What do you think is going on? Because going back to that fear I had about good and evil and being very careful about that because they genuinely believe that they're facing true evil. So to the point where those child, like I'm talking my best friend. like grew up together since Yaital in their minds even if they don't hate me I'm giving voice to they can excuse me in their minds but my videos perhaps or talking to Joe Rogan or whoever that is is contributing to something even if I'm not evil I'm playing a role in something that is so genuinely truly evil to them so we need to and then all bets are off and that's when you see people lose friends

people do things they would never otherwise do and the only solution to this is rational conversations and that's why this thing has made such a wake because that's exactly what Charlie was doing he was killed doing just that he was killed doing

the solution and it didn't work and he was he was killed he was killed for doing the thing that is the only thing you could do to prevent this so that's even a double whammy it makes it even scarier you know so but the problem is is that when I try and have those going back to most childhood friends when I try and have those conversations step by step if I can sit down with them I can genuinely I guarantee by the end of it they won't think the way they thought coming into it they still are going to disagree with Trump

it's not what it's about it's about something deeper than that and I can get there if you get it might take me an hour i've done it i've done it over and over with people in my personal life the problem is that they'll shut down the conversation why because it's almost because the logic is not there because it's almost as though they're because they can't so the jk rolling example i get fired i'm sitting on the porch at christmas my mom's house yeah guys i get all right so you yes i did say that about jk i said that with the student but you do understand right like so tomorrow just hear me out so like tomorrow is there anything stopping me from deciding i'm a woman well no warren you you you you logically you could it's true okay so i still have male

genitalia if i can then tomorrow walk into a women's changing room can you understand why a mother a woman would be uncomfortable by that they have a problem with that okay but what if she's yeah but she's an adult she should be able to get over it okay but what if she has a six-year-old can you understand why she would be uncomfortable with that and there's no way to how do you contend with with that argument though if you can see a flaw in that like challenge me on it that would be really if you can provide any pushback on anything please do because that's where these things get interesting it would make it way more interesting too conflict drive stories the central law of narrative but that's my answer to you is why it's just the law it comes down to the logic

it seems like you are getting it seems like this is sort of really hitting it at something deep for you, like this mission and the challenges that you're facing by sort of trying to come head to head with this, whether it's virtually or in your personal life. Yeah, it's been infuriating. It's, it's, and that would be my response to them a family member when they say that's like, look, if everyone, when I come home or if, and this is before viral videos or doing YouTube or anything, this is years ago, I'd say, look, if I'm, Everyone of you hates me because of this, right? If all people, your friends, they all hate me,

but if I'm still willing to have these conversations and want to rationally step by step walk you through it, maybe that would indicate that if I'm still doing this and I'm still standing firm on it, maybe that would be an indicator that I've thought this through and I have a reason why. And I think that goes back to your previous question. That's one of the reasons I think that they shut down the conversations.

Because there's something, there's, that kind of goes back to the logic of it. It's, it's, you, I have thought this through. Like, I have a reason. I've, I've, that's why that video at Emerson was so important to me, because that was my opportunity to kind of to shine a window on what I've been going, like what I, the people I have sat with for years. And it's, there's no words for it, but I can, with a camera, I can show it. I don't need words.

Yeah. It's, it's weird. I guess we're not too far off from Thanksgiving now. And every year there's the same sort of memes come up online. How to speak to your bigoted uncle this year over the third. Or the sort of based reverse version of that, which is three sentences to say to totally torpedo this year's Thanksgiving dinner. And people are going to be thinking about this, man.

I would love, you know, it would be great and ridiculously difficult to do as a survey, would be some sort of analysis of the average volume, like sentiment analysis and volume and speaking cadence and like antagonism around the Thanksgiving table. Like it's just a one once per year little test, like a core sample right out of the ground. I will take this one and take this one and take this one. And I have to assume that that curve is just getting really fucking steep

and like really, really getting up there now. And I think another question that I've got, we always hear, we heard this around Trump, you know, people made a bunch of jokes about thoughts and prayers to, quote, literally Hitler, that it's very difficult to, with one sentence, say that this guy is fascist, beginning of the end, reincarnation of the Third Reich. and with the other show compassion and those two things seem a little bit tough because I guess the subtext, the implication is the language that you used in the first case is the reason for the event which caused the need for the apology, right?

That when you use inflammatory language when you use sort of violent media, my question is basically how much of that is shaping young people's tolerance for real world violence? Like is it just reflecting what's, happening bottom up, or is it actually pushing it forward, sort of normalizing this kind of language, demonizing one side and the other? And it's not as if this is only going in one

direction, like the demonization goes in both. Yeah, but there's legitimate, that's the problem this is there's legitimately wrong behavior, objectively wrong. I think it is safe to say that it's objectively wrong to celebrate Charlie Kirk's death. And the response, some of the responses we've seen are crossing, I think, an objective, measurable line. again it's going to it's because we see the world through stories we make sense because we're narrative creatures and we've conflict drive story and it's this thing that's driving people to genuinely believe the other side is is evil while also holding the the thought in mind that there is evil there and we can see examples of where that is that's what i started that's why i started

the response with that because it does exist you've got to be careful about it. The solution, the only solution is to teach people that are claiming these things about fascism, they need, people need to explain more what fascism actually is. And it's such a, that's why I keep saying, I did get to talk to Joe Rogan, and I was trying to delve into that a little bit with him, because that is the singular to me, a window in time that has so much insight. And look, today, it's people are throwing around fascism, which echoed, goes back to them, but they don't understand if fascism is. And yeah, it's slightly, it is difficult to define in a single sentence,

but I think it's the authoritarian pursuit of national purity through force, something around those lines at the very core of it. And then components can be switched out. But it's a dangerous, it's a dangerous game. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the, I think you're asking how to, where that's coming from, which direction basically is it simply is the violent how impactful it's the age old question of like do violent video games make children violent what i'm asking is is violent media as in the sort of language inflammatory uh especially sort of escalating up and and using um really horrific examples of people

from history or from movies or from whatever to describe someone that jordan peterson was red skull right from the Marvel comics. I'm sure that there's been a Thanos example used somewhere and I'm sure that the right as well is slinging its fair share of murder, whatever this particular person is that's coming

in to sterilize the youth or whatever it might be. What would an example be on the right? Because I know it it's absolutely happening on the left like red skull. The accusations of fascism, it's everywhere. But what would be let's try and identify it on the other

So the problem for me, I think, is that the response to these sorts of stories is always larger than the initial story itself. And that means that given most of what I follow online is center, center right, what I see is crazy left of center stories that are then being responded to by somebody from the Daily Wire, whatever it might be. It does seem to, I'm trying to equivocate basically to at least give the opportunity that I don't know everything. I don't see all of the internet. And I'm like, look, given that, maybe there is some stuff out there. I have to assume that there is some stuff.

But you might be right. I may have a perfectly representative perspective. My sample may be like absolutely perfect when it comes to understanding what I see in the internet. If I was to go by my own algorithm, which is obviously hugely fucking biased, if I was to go by my own algorithm, I would say, yes, there does seem to be a lot more of that inflammatory language, going from left to right, the purity spiral stuff, the holier than thou, the very, very sort of accusatory, vindictive, over-exaggerated language does seem to go in one

direction, but I just need to leave myself open to the fact that... I see what you mean. It's on the right, too. You're right. There's people, the accusations around Jews, things like that, there's, there's, I mean, racism, there's, you see it on X. There's lines being that personally, I don't think there's certain lines I don't think should be crossed or being crossed on X for sure. You're right. In other news, Shopify powers 10%

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That's Shopify.com slash modern wisdom to upgrade your selling today. Yeah, I mean, you had this idea about when, when you know that sort of behavior has gone too far. Is there such a thing, the line between correct and incorrect behavior? There you go. That's the question at the heart of it, because, so going back to postmodern thinking, which most people echoing the sentiment don't realize they're talking about postmodernism. So you go to a therapist. The therapist, to them, there's no such thing as a correct behavior.

They're not going to tell you what to do. They're just going to affirm because it's just a matter of perspective. There's no such thing as the right way to do something. There is no ideal behavior in any given scenario in that worldview. But I disagree. That's why I talk about the fabric of reality, which we strive for. even if you can't achieve that ideal, you have to have the target to aim for,

which means there is an ideal, whether we can achieve it or not. There is a best way to behave in any given scenario. And you can judge that if you had parallel universes that you could measure each different type of action, and then you could actually see the outcomes. You could compare those outcomes, and one logically will have to be better

than all other potential outcomes. one has to be but you have to have a way to quantify it right so but so to answer yeah there's there is that's we've lost sight of that it's become this postmodern idea of everything is just a matter of perspective and is equally valid there's no narrative no shared meta narrative there's no ideal shared story that is better than any other story everything is equal it's just a matter of respect and it's really a dangerous that's really a dangerous idea so i'm glad you mentioned that how do you how do you how do you operationalize this how do you what does it mean for a society to say that behavior is bad or that it's gone too far or that that this is something

this is this is a line that's being crossed you mentioned that before i feel like a line has been crossed right that was a line has been crossed within speech right um yes talk to me about that i need you to dig into that. That's why we have the legal framework, because that's the closest we can come to actually writing in black and white what these lines are. So freedom of speech, for example, how do we determine when speech crosses that objective line? Well, hate speech, no, because who can define hate speech? We can't. There's no way to determine where that line exists. So the best we can do, the least bad way of approaching this, they're all going to be flawed. The least bad one is to say, okay, we have these laws that draw these lines, calls to violence, defamation,

whatever they are, but those are laws. And beyond that, you have legal freedom of speech. Now, yes, an employer can create their own framework because they have the freedom to pay who they want to pay and how they want to do it. But we're talking about that larger framework. And that's really what laws act as, which is why the JK Rowling debate comes back to. to where the rubber meets the road, which is the legal framework. Tomorrow, if I can decide that I'm a woman, the real question is, am I a woman under the law? Not, do you need to use my pronoun? That is the question. Everything else is beneath that question. It's, am I treated as a woman under the law? Because today, if I were to walk into that space, that changing room,

they have the legal right to call the police. Now, tomorrow, if I can decide I'm a woman and I walk in that same space, do they have the legal right to call the police? It has larger ramifications, and that's what JK Rowling has been trying to articulate to everyone. Just that. It all comes back to that, which all comes back to the legal framework, which is our attempt to create these objective lots. I mean, it is, I was going to say it's a shame that we have to rely on the legal framework to get people to behave in a pro-social manner, but maybe that's just like human nature is. we do it's just we have to have some we have to have it written we have to have the constraints yeah

sorry i don't mean i i don't mean that it's a shame that that is a thing that exists it obviously needs to exist my point is it's a shame that we're having to think about that is what we now rely on as opposed to you know common decency shared humanity etc etc like massive scaling problem when you don't see people as your neighbor you don't see them as human i realized this there was there was this insight that I'd had, I think watching the rise of Peterson was the first one that I really saw this with. There seems to be a level of fame or exposure or notoriety, a threshold. And when people cross that, some big portion of the world doesn't see them as a human anymore. They see them as a conglomeration of ideas. They're a representation of an

like an ideology or story or narrative. or something? Right there. The story, because we see, because we're narrative creatures and we see the world through stories, we cannot separate the character from the story. So when you see Joe Rogan, Jordan Peterson, it's all the past context you have psychologically is impacting how you see them. The only way to really perceive that the massive amount of that effect would be to have parallel universes where you could have a politician whose Trump do the exact same action, same proposed policy, but doesn't have the backstory, the story of Trump, and you could see how the audience responds and you could have some quantifiable outcome. That's the only way we could ever begin to

really observe just how powerful this effect is. But the thing that you notice, at least that I saw, when this threshold has been breached, people seem to be prepared to do and say things that they wouldn't of a person who doesn't have that story armor, whatever it is that they think that they've got that hasn't gone through that altitude and it was disheartening

it was disheartening to think you know these people are still people on the other side of this like if you say this thing or send this thing I've spent the last seven and a half years you'll be episode like 1005 at no point on this journey to building this platform has someone sat me down and taught me about like the super secret squirrel technique that is only taught to people that are moderately

fucking well known on the internet of how to not feel really disturbed when nasty shit happens like there's no and and you know champagne problems you know what an issue do you not know the people are in poverty you just need to make video all right hey hey i do not disagree but the social issues is still a social issue. Like if you felt ostracized or condemned or or like you were being accused of all of these things, it would be tough. And yeah, it was just, it was really interesting to me that there is a size that you get to where you are no longer seen as a human and it changes the way that people behave. And I fear that Charlie Kirk, Charlie Kirk had breached that as well. Yeah, I don't, I wouldn't know about that. I'm not near that size you have. Charlie Kirk did.

but I think you're right I think you're I'd have heard you talk about this before I understand it's a real and I know people dismiss it as champagne problems but it comes with baggage just my little bit of whatever this is that I'm doing it yeah it's it has there's a cost for sure but it's not just the cost I don't think it's the lack of it's the lack of humanity from people seeing those individuals that like Joe Rogan like you can do and say whatever you want about that guy

or you know like pick somebody on the other side like holy fuck some of the stuff true or not funny or not that was said about Joe Biden last year was fucking horrific like think about if you are that guy you're this dude who has been thrust into a position

that you were physiologically really, really going to struggle with, probably pumped with all manner of whatever they needed to keep that racehorse running for the space of four years. And you're just like, oh, it made me feel really sad, made me feel really, really sad for him, for the human that is Joe Biden. Like, holy fuck. It's so awful what he had to go through. And, um, but people are just like, well, you know, like, you rise to the top and the, the arrows are going to be slung your way or whatever. I don't know. Maybe I'm too much of a pussy. No, no. It's not that you're being a pussy. It's because you, because your ego is in check and you have, so your ego is not

flawed because you've achieved success. You know, you're like a handsome guy tall, you worked it, you work out, whatever, all that stuff. It's like you don't have anything to prove. So you are now in this place where you have the I get what you mean I don't know the words for it I don't know how to describe it but it comes down to it's the attachment to ego that I've and I can encounter that often man it's ego is really the emotion is the death of reason and motion comes from ego what's the relationship with ego and dehumanizing people I think we want to dehumanize people from a place of ego often. It's like,

well, it depends on the example. Maybe if you dislike someone, a coworker, for example, maybe this is a bad example because it would be a coworker, but they have something you don't have,

or someone makes a video criticizing Chris Williamson's take on this political thing, and do you respond with a counter video that's kind of going off the wall? And when you, a person that would respond is probably doing, so from a place of ego, I think it often comes from that thing that we call ego, what ego means we could, yeah. At least for me, it, perhaps part of it is the champagne problems thing.

This person has enough going on that there's like a ballast in the system, right? They've got like enough buffer stability that I can use them as this sort of um like rhetorical punching bag in a way uh when jordan was ill uh a few years ago um or when who was the guy who got attacked by the dude in the with with the hammer in the house like last year yeah i forget is not Elizabeth Warren's husband somebody else's husband and uh on that you go Jesus Christ like an old dude getting attacked by a guy in his house and um look maybe this is just what maybe this is the most basic bitch point in history which is uh people become famous and then people take the piss out of them and are mean like perhaps it's that but it feels like it's something a little bit deeper

than that to me this sort of loss of humanity and uh i wonder whether it's tribalism that this person begins to represent something that you either agree with or disagree with so they're kind of like a flag bearer in some sort of a way or a totem or a mask or and like you're behind this thing or you're against this thing and if it's a big thing like you kind of throw arrows at it or and if you're with it then you kind of defend it vehemently and that you know just naturally sort of spirals up the inflammatory language maybe that plays a role i feel like it does yeah it's the example of jordan peterson if people were people yeah the way they were attacking him the way they're going to continue oftentimes i do think it comes from

that part that's missing from them it's almost as though they're jealous of In some way, they would never say this probably, whether it's his ability to think what he has achieved or being at peace with straddling two worlds and not, you know, falling into one tribe. What you're talking about this team mentality, I think, is so silly. Because, like, where it's people, so many people are, it's like, I'm on this team, therefore I'm going to check off all the boxes,

and that's how they form their thinking. It's just I don't understand that as opposed to going point by point following the logic. Well, yeah, I mean, if you, if I know one of your opinions and from it, I can accurately predict everything else that you believe, you're probably not a serious thinker. Right. Right. You've taken a onesie and put it on and called it an outfit. But no, that's mono thinking, right? And, you know, it's because the demand for answers outstrips most people's supply.

and in that case you have to retrofit all issues all questions are given the same answer everything is climate change or everything is capitalism or everything is progressivism everything is LGBT

everything is fascism yeah and that mona thinking is a great shortcut the human brain loves those right but it's an indication like if you've just

here's a good way to think about it when was the last time that a content creator that you like or a person that you read some news contributor when was the last time that they surprised

you with their take but I would say for instance that Bill Ma is somebody who regularly surprises me with his takes and that makes me Sam Harris fucking almost always surprises me with his If I was to like roll a dice and try and predict what it is that's going to come next out of Belmar or Sam Harris, there's some, I have some predictive power, but not that much, to be honest. And I'm like, wow, that fuck, I didn't think he was going to say that. And that's good. I think that's a good thing. But what it feels like to people on your side, it looks, it feels like you're an unreliable ally. And what it looks like to people on the other side is a lack of conviction.

It's like, see, see, he's not with them on that thing. I mean, he was with them on whatever, but January 6th, he's not with them there. And he was with them on COVID masking, but he's not with them on immigration. And he go, okay, that looks so much like an opportunity for both sides, like people in your own camp and people in the other camp, neither of them are going to agree with you for you dissenting. The other group is going to remember the fact that you didn't agree with them previously, and your own group is going to be like, well, Warren, fucking hell. I thought you were with us on gun control. You were with us on immigration or you were with us on economic policy or on health care.

And I'm obsessed with this idea, fucking obsessed with this idea of what I think is. It's so cool. That's especially when it comes to high, we'll call them high stakes topics like Christianity or whatnot, where it comes down to faith and belief. That's essentially what happened with Jordan Peters and Jubilee, that the criticism he got from that, which I think is silly. but he had a really interesting response to that where it was essentially an argument of utility

he's saying because I can reach more people there's a reason that I don't want to beyond just that it's private and it's extremely complicated he's a guy who's always straddling that reality that words are just the tools and everything of substance is beneath the service and that's what gives him that ability

because he's doing things with those tools no one else does he's like actually trying to reach more people with an incredibly complicated topic. The problem is with Christianity. It's literally, and I struggle with that. I consider myself a Christian, but I struggle with the idea that all you need to do

is say the right words, and that makes you a Christian. And if you don't, if you don't say the right words and claim, so many people genuinely seem to believe that it's, you have to literally just proclaim certain things in order to be saved. That's really important to.

them the words that you say the right words that's i'm not disagreeing with any of the beliefs or anything but i i do i tend to there's things that jordan pearson says about this topic that i resonate with on a gut level yeah strange one man it is a fucking fascinating time to navigate the world of rhetoric and communication and what do you think the next I mean you don't have a crystal ball but what do you think the next few years looks like in terms of the way that this communication goes forward have you got any early inclinations well the the ramifications of like this technology this medium is changing everything we're seeing that it's higher it's harder it's harder to to hide anything and in that sense i think it's a good thing because i do have this sense of the fabric of reality exists and that the audience doesn't lie that audience meaning that's reflecting what is and we don't want to pull the wool over their eyes the more transparency

the better is there's there's that pendulum that seems to swing from the left to the right I don't know what will happen I don't I mean as far as politics I would never consider myself a political expert it's difficult I think the universities are in real trouble they're in real trouble and that's another thing Peterson's right about

I don't know how they're going to come back from it so there's going to be big change around that I think that this agent Hollywood is transforming. They're trying to catch up with these technologies. They're realizing that the ability to connect to that audience, that thing that's reflecting the fabric of reality, has shifted. I don't know. You probably have an agent. If you don't,

I'm sure there's agents looking at you because they're launching new departments recognizing that this is the future. And what the real ramifications of that are, I do not know. What the real ramifications of that are, I do not know. what the real ramifications are of this conflict between good, not politics, but right versus wrong behavior. Well, going back to the beginning of the conversation, there's something shifting, which is why Emma Watson came out and made those comments.

Something shifting for the better. Warren Smith, ladies and gentlemen, dude, I appreciate you very much. And I applaud you for taking something that could have been horrific and turning it into a springboard to make something great. So that's real alchemy there. Where should people go? They want to check out all of your stuff. Oh, just YouTube, Warren Smith's Secret Scholars Society.

Thank you. Amen. I appreciate you. If you are looking for new reading suggestions, look no further than the Modern Wisdom Reading List. It is 100 books that you should read before you die. The most interesting, life-changing and impactful books I've ever read with descriptions about why I liked them and links to go and buy them

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