Modern Wisdom - #1018 - Peter Crouch - Behind The Bravado of Modern British Football

Episode Date: November 10, 2025

Peter Crouch is a former professional footballer, sports pundit, and podcaster. What was it like playing in the Premier League alongside some of football’s most intense personalities? In an era where a goal celebration, whether it was the robot or a knee slide, showed your confidence as much as your skill, what was life like for Peter Crouch back then, and what’s he up to now Expect to learn why so many ex-footballers started doing podcasts, what the common psychological archetype of top flight football players are, what being inside Premier League dressing rooms taught Peter about masculinity, why there are still no publicly gay premier league players, how Peter dealt with anxiety and the adrenaline whilst being a footballer, what worst part of the job that the general public don’t understand and much more… Sponsors: See discounts for all the products I use and recommend: https://chriswillx.com/deals Get up to $350 off the Pod 5 at https://eightsleep.com/modernwisdom Get $100 off the best bloodwork analysis in America at https://functionhealth.com/modernwisdom Get 35% off your first subscription on the best supplements from Momentous at https://livemomentous.com/modernwisdom Get a Free Sample Pack of LMNT’s most popular flavours with your first purchase at https://drinklmnt.com/modernwisdom Extra Stuff: Get my free reading list of 100 books to read before you die: https://chriswillx.com/books Try my productivity energy drink Neutonic: https://neutonic.com/modernwisdom Episodes You Might Enjoy: #577 - David Goggins - This Is How To Master Your Life: https://tinyurl.com/43hv6y59 #712 - Dr Jordan Peterson - How To Destroy Your Negative Beliefs: https://tinyurl.com/2rtz7avf #700 - Dr Andrew Huberman - The Secret Tools To Hack Your Brain: https://tinyurl.com/3ccn5vkp - Get In Touch: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/modernwisdompodcast Email: https://chriswillx.com/contact - Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Do ex-players turn to podcasts because TV punditry feels fake? God, I felt like I was maybe one of the first, like, to do a podcast. I only did a podcast because I had a book to promote bizarrely, and someone said, I'll do a podcast, and then I genuinely thought no one would listen to it. And then, you know, we had a laugh doing it, and I probably said a hell of a lot more than I probably should. and then I realized people were actually listening. You know, it was one of those where we weren't planning on having a huge following

and then it kind of arrived. And then, I don't know, it was a bit more of the fact that I was being open and honest in a world of football where you're told to be guarded and secretive. You know, it was very much like don't say the wrong thing. And I think the fact that we were open and honest gave it a platform and people wanted to listen to it. The punditory stuff, yeah, I think it's a little bit more still in that world of stay guarded, don't say the wrong thing.

Whereas podcasts, as I'm sure you know yourself, you can definitely be yourself a little bit more and show your personality. And I think that's, I think it's obviously the benefit of them. What is it about the world of football that encourages the players to be so guarded? Because you're right, I have an understanding of the psychology of the motivation of players from other sports, of rock stars, and football players seem to be very sort of dead outside of the permitted interview at the end of the match, which is 30 seconds long. There's not much going on. Is that prescribed top down? Is that something that's cultural, bottom up?

What's going on? I do think it's changing in a lot of ways because I think certainly when I was playing, it was very much going to an interview, do a press conference, but don't say anything. I think that bizarrely was our mentality was, I want to come out of this interview, having got through it,

and not said anything too controversial. Inflammatory. Anything to wind anyone up. If we've got a Derby game on a weekend, I don't want to get their supporters rolled up by saying something negative about the other team. I want to go in there and say the plainest answers I can possibly say. Well, there is a reputation among footballers for giving slightly bland answers.

Exactly right. And I think there's an element of that. I totally understand because quite often I think in a world now where players have social media, players can have their own voice, players can get things across. There's certainly a definite shift in it. I think certainly when I was playing and before me, the kind of newspapers ran the media really and I think something that you say in a newspaper in a headline as I'm pretty sure you would know being on a podcast yourself if someone takes something you say out of context and puts that in a headline you know that can look very different to what you're trying to get across and I think if you're certainly in Britain at that time most people formed opinions

through newspapers and I think if I'm saying you know saying something tongue in cheek about a player on the opposition side. We all know it's a joke. Everyone in the room knows it's a joke. But if you put that in a headline and make it look like it's not a joke, people can get offended and people's opinion of you will be warped. And I think certainly that was the whole probably reason behind the fact that we don't want to say anything and we're boring.

And most players used to give very boring interviews. I happen to think it is changing a lot now. I think certainly through the world of social media. we can see a lot more of players' personalities, podcasts like this, people do want to come on and you can kind of, you're not just a footballer, you know, who does a boring interview at the end of the game, you can be a little bit more than that now. Well, I think about UFC fighters who maybe more of what they do is outside of the sport, right? Almost all of what they do, boxers too.

It is all about the press conference. It's all about the podcast. You know, look at someone like Ariel Halwani. who will have each different fighter from a card that's coming up on UFC or, you know, BKFC or whatever. And that is what they do. And I still, I don't know, are we seeing footballers change because they can now counter the narrative in the mainstream press? They can always just put up an Instagram story or they can address these things directly. Is it your opinion that because you had no direct access to be able to put something out to the fans or to the world,

Other than, again, through the same newspaper that just said something mean and out of context about you previously, that it meant everyone was a lot more scared about getting stuff wrong. Everyone was petrified, genuinely petrified. As you think about it, quite often in football, you know, it's working class background. You know, lads are coming from tough environments, you know, maybe not the most educated. And that's genuinely the case. And I think you then put into a press conference with what I would say at the time. time, you know, very kind of well-educated people trying to make you trip up on your words or say things that you don't want to say. And I think, of course, that young lad, 18, 19 years

of age is going to be pretty guarded, you know, in an environment like that. And I think that is, you know, certainly has been the case. I think with regards to boxing, you have said, like you said there, it has become a show more than the, I mean, quite often that the boxing takes kind of a back seat to this whole, you know, performance. Everything is WWE. Yeah, it feels like, you know, we're all trying to kind of sell subscriptions and sell tickets. And I totally understand it. You know, you want to, the biggest spectacle you can.

And, you know, there's people behind the scenes that want to make a hell of a lot of money from it and they are. But, yeah, I mean, quite often I think it's almost pulling the wool over the eyes of the fans. It's some degree to say, you know, two people that, look like they really hate each other probably don't they're just selling the fuck i'm i'm as you're speaking there i'm wondering whether most team sports tend to not be like that and i think that that's the case i don't think as many basketball players stepf curry isn't giving tons of interviews talking shit about other people um baseball not the same uh cricket i guess but i suppose cricket is a quite placid by nature and the sport is a little bit more gentle

So like the shit talk would be of a different kind if you were to do that. But when I think about tennis, fucking Novak Djokovic was just on Jay Shetty's show. So I'm wondering whether there's maybe something different about you're part of a team. And whoa, whoa, whoa, Peter, what do you just say? There's 10 other guys on the pitch that are at the mercy of that shit thing that you just said yesterday. We're all, everyone's given a stick. So you're responsible for the blast radius of the bullshit around you. Does that make sense? Yeah, and also I think, you know, with a team sport like that, there's an element of, you know, still being at school, you know, like you want to fit in. You know, if you're in a single sport, if you're a boxer or a golfer, you know, you can say what you like. It's on you, right? And I think, you know, if we, I always remember it's kind of Jamie Carrague, you really drilled it into me when I was at Liverpool. You know, going to the press conference, don't say anything to kind of wind up the opposition or give them an opportunity. You know, the Man United game, Man United Liverpool game, for instance, was it was such a huge game, the Liverpool Everton game or any

Champions League semi-final, like, anything you said in that press conference was, it was almost, I remember him kind of almost coaching you through it. It'd be like, don't say this, don't say that, don't wind them up in this way. And I'm going in there thinking of all the things that Jamie's told me to say in the press conference, because he's, you know, he was more experienced than me at time and he's just trying to help me out in the fact that you don't want something blazoned all over the newspaper all over sky sports news you don't want to say the wrong thing and i think that was why quite often footballers give very mundane interviews that's a great get out of jail free card if somebody purposefully actually just gives one because i didn't have anything

you say that day i was being i was being tactical and there's some boring footballers out there as well that might contribute too um so i think i said before i think there's archetypes of psychology in some sports, you know, sort of golfers being very precise, maybe a little bit autistic, baseball players being sort of superstitious and maybe a little bit obsessive. What is the psychological archetype, the common psychological archetype of top flight footballers in your experience? Yeah, I think, like, I got to a top level, right? I got to, you know, Premier League, I played for my country, I played in the Champions League and, you know, I've won a small amount, but I'm very proud of the career I had

but I still class myself as yeah I got to a top level but I would not class myself as elite because I saw the elite and that was that was a different mentality to what I had I enjoyed myself I won games and I enjoyed it

whereas you know we'd win something or I'd get to a final and I'd sit back afterwards and go that was fucking amazing loved it whereas the players I'm talking certainly the players I played with for England Cherard Lampard Runey

John Terry that kind of player who was multiple multiple winners you know Rio Ferdinand they just did not look like they enjoyed it ever and like it was always the next thing

it was like you know we've won that game but we could have done that or you know the we've won that but tomorrow we're training again and not just that it rubs off on every everyone else around you. And if you look at the, you know, certainly the team in 2005 that won the Champions League with Liverpool in Istanbul, not the greatest team to ever win the Champions

League, let's be perfectly honest. But, you know, that mentality that Gerard had, I thought, and Jamie Carriger, certainly at that time, kind of dragged that team to success. And I think that rubs off on other people. And that is the mentality that I would say is the best of the best. I think there's probably regrets are there and there's a little bit of pain because they probably look back

some of those players now think I wish I'd just enjoyed that you know. Well they'll look at you with a sense of envy and think God Peter just had so much fun yeah you know he looks back with fond playfulness and I have this sort of weird reverse stoicism where I didn't let myself

feel the wins but I did let myself feel the failures yeah and I don't know what's right or wrong there. Do you know what I mean? Like, yeah, if I had, if I had that kind of mentality and don't, I'm not, I wasn't unprofessional. You know what I mean? I was obviously the minute I walk through the training ground, I'm switched on. But I did sit back and go like, or what, you know, I'd watch match of the day and go, I was great there. You know, I did really well there. Whereas they, they would always be look at the negatives and try and improve. And of course, I tried to improve as well. But I did enjoy the fact that we were having success.

In your experience, did those people just have that for football, or did that bleed into the rest of their life? And then to compare that to you too, is that something that you find relatively easy with the other stuff, with playing with the kids, with doing the podcast, with starting your business, with enjoying your time on holiday and work and all the rest of it? My point being, I wonder how much of that is you are an elite performer within this pursuit and this is the mindset that's made you show. And you are an obsessive, typically negatively focused person which means that you pay a lot of attention to where things are going wrong and you improve but that's just you and that is global

that's across your entire life is that how you like these people are like that in and on the pitch and off the pitch in both camps I would say so yeah and in all honestly I'm probably doing myself

a little bit of the service of the fact that I am like that as well like you know I think when you get to that level of sport and winning matters right it really matters then I don't think you take that into every aspect of your life and I think that's a good thing like

you know I don't know my kids win anything really and um you know my my my my my wife saying you know just just let a win and you're like no like and I'll come back and say yeah like I I destroyed her she's like 14 you know I'm like play tennis and I want to win I want to be you do know that one day yeah but that that that I think because my dad was like it with me he would not let me win at anything. And then when I got to the point where I did beat him, it meant so much more. Because I think if my little girl's really good at tennis

and I just, obviously, she's getting to the point where it's, you know, she's good. But obviously the moment she does beat me is the moment she's going to feel so good. And I think it's all that pain that she's gone through before is going to be worth it. And I genuinely, I believe that. That's going to be her champions league. Yeah, I believe that. My dad did it to me. I was playing tennis, and we used to have these battles, and my mum used to come down.

And, I mean, she'd come down for five minutes. We'd both tell her in no uncertain terms to leave. It was so aggressive. People used to come down to the park to watch me and my dad's games. And they were so, it was intense. And it got to a stage where I was just about to beat him, and he pulled a hamstring. And I got home, I said that. I was over the other side of the court, and I said, Dad, don't use it.

there and he said i can't help it's gone anyway we get back and i's you know we've he's carried on this this thing for ages and i've got back and i've sat down and then he's just gone he still never beat me no of you and i was like oh you know and we never played again never played again wow yeah but um you know oh i don't know if i'll go that far but i would i definitely think that there is a there is a lesson in you know you need to learn I think to lose and then it definitely means more when you win because you've earned it. So those players, the ones that you'd say are sort of top of the top elite, I mean, you know, even from the outside, somebody that I've caught a bit of a glimpse of this would be Cristiana

Ronaldo as far as I can say, how old is he? 41, 42, something like that, yeah, and still looks fantastic, still very aggressive with that. I don't know how balanced, at least some of the stuff I've seen, it seems, oh, like this guy's got, but he's also got like. like an infinity team powering him and this big engine that's behind him. Yeah, but I think that was in him very early. I played against Cristiano when no one knew he was. We had Koresma on one wing and Ronaldo was on the other. And Portugal versus England under 21s, no one knew he was.

And oh my God, he was absolutely sensational, as you can imagine. I mean, he was the tricks, the flicks, he was a machine. And then he came to Manchester United. And I remember Rio telling me, you know, and this was very early on. I mean, it must have been 21, 22, and, you know, he's not even barely kicked a ball in the Premier League, and he's telling Rio and, you know, various other people in the team that he wants to be the best player in the world. And I think, you know, that, that takes a certain type of person to say that when you're so far away from being the, you've got amazing talent, you've, you know, you've definitely got the ability to get there. But the fact that he's, he was saying that at such an early age, he had one goal. that was to be the best player of the planet. And then to achieve it is incredible.

How receptive are players to that kind of bravado? Because I think when you talk about, again, solo sport, UFC, right? You think that Connor McGregers of the world, the best shit talk is in the world, Kobe Covington, whatever. I mean, he can do what you want. Maybe your coach will say, you idiot, you shouldn't have said that. But really, there's no one else that you're at the mercy of. And it's a really, really good point. Kind of the same, the difference between being Taylor Swift and the Ollie Sykes, the lead singer of Bring Me the Horizon. If you do or say a thing

as a solo artist, fine, it's on your shoulders. If you do or say a thing with the rest of the bandmates, you now need to go and answer to them on the bus or in the dressing room or whatever. So if I imagine that teams want confident players because a good player will help the performance of the team, but there's this trade-off between how much that person gets to capture the limelight,

and how much that person steals all of the attention and there's this battle between the two things so is there a concern about someone getting too big for their boots what is the reception of somebody that's got bravado like that like well the thing I've probably said the same thing and got nowhere near it you know and obviously they get ridiculed for it I think it's good to have I think you know there are certain players like you know Zlatan Ibrahimovich someone who who's outspoken but backs it up

and I think there's nothing better than and there's nothing we love more than someone, Floyd Mayweather, you know, someone at the top of their game who talks to talk but backs it up with results. And I think, you know, we've, in sports, especially, like, I love all sports and the characters are the people that make it, right. The people that say they're going to do something and then they do it is just, and you know, because the whole, you know, everyone watching, once they say they're going to do something, everyone wants them to fail. it's that there's something certainly in this country in England we are we absolutely love people failing

someone said to me I remember like buying a nice car if you buy a nice car in England people want to key it you know if you're in America or a US we'll celebrate the fact that you you've done well you know but there's something about that in this country that I like and it's definitely not going to let you get too big for your boots yeah there you go and I think you know Christiana would have been ridiculed at that age

there's players far more on a on a far more ahead of him at that time but the fact that he had that go and achieved it is something you got respect what did being inside of Premier League dressing rooms teach you about masculinity well yeah that

I mean a hell of a lot like you had to go out very quickly I remember being 40 I mean it's a totally different time now but I mean some of the the dress rooms I was in in that age and you're playing with kind of men, you know, and I kind of didn't, I didn't develop to a little bit later,

you know, I'm 14, 15, very skinny, very tall. And I'm in dressing room with men, you know, just hard men, you know, and like the coaches were incredibly tough, you know, like. What youth set up were you in? I was at QPR for a little while, and then I went to Tottenham, when Jerry Francis moved, and I ended up back at QPR and made my debut. But, yeah, I was at Tottenham, and it was hard.

And also, you know, I grew up in quite a nice environment, you know. And, you know, my dad obviously said to me quite often, I was too nice. I had to change. I had to be someone different on the pitch. Because I'm playing an environment where, you know, people are fighting for their lives, you know. And they're, you know, that tackle that means something to me is life or death to them. You know, I mean, I had to make that life or death for me. So I had to just change my mentality, be a different person when I went over the white line.

and change the kind of character I am off the field. Kind of always tried to remain the person that I was but just be a different person on the pitch. And I think that environment definitely helped me certainly become the person and the player that I was, definitely. I played a lot of cricket as a kid.

I played to a pretty high standard. I played for Durham and then I did some training stuff with England. And that's the same. I mean, even maybe younger, because the thing that you get to do with cricket as a sport, which isn't as much about physicality and is much more about technique, you can as a 13. I started playing adults at 13 And, you know, I'd be playing maybe fourths at 13 And then I'd probably start

I think I had my first seconds game When I was 14 And then, you know, you're playing twos and ones And then you're going to play, you're already playing county, you'd set up And then you're playing, you know, Durham Academy, Durham Seconds. And yeah, you're right.

You're 14 years old in communal showers with guys And another interesting quirk in the game of cricket is that you're in the pavilion for 50% of the game unless you're batting your time in the dressing room

is maybe more than any other sport except for baseball but the difference with baseball being that their dressing room is on the pitch so it doesn't have as much privacy so yeah it's a real fucking baptism of fire there was one day where my head got shaved like I was in you know I'm in the pavilion

and my dad saw me go into the dressing room with hair and then by the time that we'd finished batting hadn't lost too many wickets so no one had come out, I came out without hair I think I did the exact same thing I went on to a we played the milk cup in Ireland but we were still

at school I was I was playing the under 16s and that team those lads they had already gone full time so I was still at school and we were kind of part of time so they had a real tight bond and then we were like three players who were playing a year above you can only imagine you know

we were the whipping boys right So, yeah, it was like, I don't want to have my head shave. Well, that's not an option. So, yeah, you get your head shaved and you kind of muck in and you want to, but you're not really kind of on the inside of it. And I found that tough at first, but, you know, I think to myself, God, it would have been easier to stay at home and not go to training or, but, you know, getting through that and overcoming those things is definitely feathering your cap.

And I think it, you know, it is such an old school way of looking at things. you know, the coaches were so hard on you and it was whether or not you could sink or sweat. It was basically, look, are you hard enough to deal with this? Yeah. And they were overly tough on you. But I do think, you know, I know it's a bit old school and we can't do that now,

but I do think it made me, it did make me stronger. And, you know, the fact that there were certainly some players who would sit here with you now and say it was bullying, it was terrible because they didn't make it. You know, they didn't, they were selected out. Yeah, and they did find that tough and they couldn't deal with it. and I totally understand why.

But the fact that I did manage to overcome those hurdles definitely made me stronger mentally and definitely made me, I think, stronger for everything that life throws at you. We'll get back to talking in just one minute, but first, I need to tell you about Eight Sleep. If you struggle to stay asleep because your body gets too hot or too cold,

this is going to help. Eight Sleep just released their brand new Pod 5. It now includes a temperature-regulating duvet that works with the smart mattress to deliver full body climate control. And the new base even comes with a built-in speaker so you can fall asleep to white noise or stay awake, listening to me.

And it's got upgraded biometric sensors that quietly run health checks every night spotting patterns like abnormal heartbeats, disrupted breathing or sudden changes in HIV. It'll even start warming or cooling your bed an hour before you get in, which is why eight sleep has been clinically proven to increase total sleep by up to one hour every night.

Best of all, they've got a 30-day sleep trial so you can buy it and sleep on it for 20. night. And if you don't love it, they'll give you your money back. Plus, they ship internationally. Right now, you can get up to $350 off the pod five by going to the link in the description below or heading to 8Sleep.com slash modern wisdom and using the code modern wisdom, a checkout. That's E-I-G-H-T-Sleep.com slash modern wisdom and modern wisdom, a checkout. What about masculinity and that sort of male posturing thing when you get to everybody being a professional player.

I have no idea what this looks like inside of the dressing room or on the training ground. Lots of big squat, big-ish squads, you know, a good bunch of physios, some S&Cs, et cetera, et cetera. It's like a big group of people that are all moving around. It's a basketball team, which has got much smaller team in squad size. What's that like? What does masculinity and professional football look like?

Well, it's incredible, it's higher you imagine it. I think it's very kind of macho dog eat dog world, you know. I think people want to take your place, you know, any weakness is preyed upon. If you look at the masculinity side of it, I suppose it's very much, you know, you have to man up, basically. And I think certainly things, nowadays, it's a lot better. But, you know, if I went in to see the manager and said, you know, I'm struggling a little bit mentally, you drop then you know you obviously can't you can't deal with it you can't you know that kind of struggle I think it's very it was very old school I think it's very different now um but I wouldn't

I wouldn't show any weakness whatsoever even if I was feeling down about anything you just don't show it and I think that was you know some kind of environment that I grew up in and the environment that I played in but I do think I do think it's much better now and you know certainly men in general talk about things more now, don't it? Is that the same inside of the dressing room? Have you got any indication that it's changed when it gets to football? Yeah, I think so. I think it's a lot more accommodating than you would expect now. I think, you know, it's very multicultural. Like, you know, everyone's very different, very different walks of life all over the world, different beliefs, religions. Certainly when I was in the youth team and coming through,

it was very English, kind of British, culture that was policing the dress room. I mean, superbly diverse now. Yeah, that's what I mean. I think you know, there's, I think all corners of the globe is covered in the dress room now. And I think certainly when I was coming through that kind of British, it was this macho, almost drinking culture, if you like. I think that's gone now. Talking about diversity, there are no publicly gay Premier League players. Each Premier League club can register a squad of up to 25 players Puss Unlimited Under-21s, 20 clubs, that's 500 registered first-team players any given time. If you include all of the under-21s who make senior appearances, the number rises to about

600 to 650 active players across the season. Currently, zero active Premier League male players are publicly out as gay. Statistically speaking, there should be 20 to 35, same in La Liga, same in the German League, same in the French League, and there is one gay guy in Seria in Italy. why I could not tell you I think I genuinely think now if someone came out as gay in in a dressing room I think they'd be very well supported I think in those in the Premier League dressing room yeah of course you're going to have idiots in the crowd I think people that are you know maybe stuck in the dark ages we've seen it with racism you know it's still not completely kicked out is it I think you know we've seen an incident recently at the Liverpool match with Bournemouth that you know that proves that I think it's got far better I think there's you know there's still a way to go but with regards to to someone coming out I genuinely believe that you know if there is someone out there you would urge them to come forward and if they want to and of course it's their decision because if they don't want to that's that's totally their decision as well but I do think it would be well supported as regards to why, I mean, I played with Thomas Hitzelberger, who has come out as gay. I played with him, Aston Villa. But, you know, he felt he couldn't come out at the time for whatever reason.

He came out afterwards. But I see, I've spoke to Thomas and, you know, we've, you know, he's felt very well supported since he has come out. So it's just a shame he didn't do it while he was playing. Yeah, I mean, it's a good point. It's your choice. choice. You don't need to. Exactly. Yeah. You are a professional athlete. I do not need to know about your sexuality. Absolutely. That being said, people talk a lot about lots of things that they're getting up to, right? This is my new car that I've just bought, and this is my new dog, and I just got married, and I did whatever. And yeah, if we've got this, you know, 600 to 650 player ecosystem that exists in the Premier League each year, which is cycling through, right? That's not fixed. That's, you know,

over the last decade with people moving in and out, you're talking maybe close to 2000, maybe 3,000. And if you were to look at sort of the rates of how often you would assume there would be at least one gay player in this group, you're talking 20 to 35 people, and it's non. And regardless of whether the locker room and the press and your fans would be fine with that, or maybe even in support of that, maybe it would even, you know, be a positive.

There is evidently something true or not that is lingering to cause those players. It's almost 100% a guarantee that there are, that there is not no gay players, right, in the Premier League. So it has to be either they're focused on being professional. Yeah, maybe, but I get the sense that given a, I feel completely liberated to talk about whatever I want. Most players might actually like to have their sexuality out there. But they don't. So whether it's real or imagined, there's something lingering, I think, that's causing guys, because it's not the same in rugby. I don't know whether it would be the same in cricket. I wonder as well, you mentioned before about the class thing. I wonder how much of this is

because football is still very much dominated by working class in a way that rugby perhaps isn't the same in the way that cricket perhaps isn't the same. Tennis also not the same. So yeah, maybe it's a class thing too. Yeah, perhaps. I mean, I don't know. I mean, I've spoke to Thomas about it and, you know, he felt he didn't, he wanted to concentrate on his football.

He felt a lot of, you know, a lot of a distraction to him. He also thought, you know, I don't know what the fallout's going to be because because no one's really done it while they've been playing at the top level. So yeah, it's a difficult one. to navigate, but I genuinely think, you know, from everyone I've been involved in football a lot of time, a long time now, and I do think that there would be a tremendous amount of support for someone that did. It might be interesting when it happens.

It would be, like a really kind of a monumental moment when that does happen. Yeah, I mean, you know, like you say, the statistics or the chance of it happening is you would expect it to happen. No, it hasn't done so far, but, you know, I think it would be probably a good thing for the game when it does. What was it you were saying, Dean, about there's only one guy in Formula One as well? Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, you pick your favorite sport of choice. And I don't know, it's strange to me not to harp on the sort of pride acceptance thing. people that criticize pride, even my gay friends that criticize pride,

and they're like, okay, we've done. Like, you know, we've sort of owned all of the different territory that we need to. And I think in many ways, brands change their display photos on Twitter to have a rainbow behind them for Pride Month and all the rest of this stuff. Like, you know, that looks like it's pretty well conquered to me. But then when we look at elite sport, the numbers don't really seem to stack up. So it seems like, you know, there kind of is work to be done in some of these ways, or maybe it's the case that all players, actually that's another good

point. I'm talking against myself here. I'll let you know what I'm done. I'm just having an argument over here. How many players, straight players, do you know about what they're doing with their relationship? Well, that's what I mean. Like, if I'm a footballer, I know how I feel, right? And if I, if I was gay, I think I'd be quite open about it. But I don't think I would be shouting it from the rooftops either. Like, I'm not going to do a press conference and say, you know, my sexual preferences. Like, I, I, I'm there. If you went out and Jamie Carrey goes like, right, Peter, we really need you, just don't say much. Don't say much. And you go out and you go, my sexual preferences, ladies and gentlemen, let me tell you. That's what I mean. I did. We're there

to play football, you know, and I think, of course, if someone is gay, and I'd love them to feel comfortable enough to come out if they want to. But having said that, We're not there for that. You know, I'm not there to broadcast what, you know, my preferences are. I'm there to play football. I'm there to do a job, something that I love doing. And actually, you know, that might take something away from the job that I'm doing. It's certainly going to be a distraction.

You know, and I think, you know, we're all professional. I think footballers just want to get on with playing and do something they love and done since they were a kid. And that potentially could be a distraction. So if there are people out there that, you know, don't feel that they want to come out of that, then that's totally fine as well. interesting we were saying before about how previously there was a disadvantage because you didn't have a direct route to be able to broadcast what it is that you've got going on and in many ways that was a weakness but now that it's an availability there's almost this sense of like entitlement or obligation it's like well tell me tell me what you've got going on is that new car what I'm with the dog is the dog like how's the dog doing you know has it been spayed yet there's this necessity for everything to be keeping up with the Kardashians well I I've found this myself, like, because I do a podcast with my wife and, you know, the stuff that we talk about at home, quite often we talk about on the podcast, but I've kind of blurred the lines a little bit now where I'm like, people will come up to me and be, oh, how's Al's Kaz

doing? You know, and that's like Abby's friend, you know, talk about the dog. And I'm, like, how do you know these things? And I just forget. I did it. Yeah, we've talked about it, right? And because we're sitting there on our couch, we do it at home, the stuff that we say, you know, I forget sometimes what's out there and what's not. And, you know, people will come up to us in a, in a supermarket and say things about our lives. And I'll be like, how the hell? And then it just dawn on me the fact that we've talked. Last week. Yeah, yeah, exactly right. But I enjoy it. And people seem to enjoy it with us. So there more that, you know, there more that that can continue the better because we love doing it. Yeah. Going back to the sort of football culture thing,

It certainly seemed like if you're a very successful player, Ronaldo-esque, you can get away with a little bit more. Does that encourage or tend teams who are winning to continue to sort of turn the screw of maybe toxic culture in terms of work rate, how hard and unforgiving people are, that sort of backbiting, ruthlessness, which doesn't necessarily bind a team together. It's 11 individuals or a 25 squad group of individuals as opposed to a 25 squad group that are all working together. But if everything is going well and you're moving up through the rankings, everyone's sort of, we don't want to change what appears to be working at the moment. I have to assume that success permits things to become a little bit more extreme in that way. Yeah, I think, I've actually been in both scenarios, you know,

when you're losing games, that can be obviously very toxic as well, but also winning games as well. And like the players that aren't playing, that kind of atmosphere, like I don't envy managers trying to deal with so many big personalities. And I think nowadays it's very much more like the players will let their agents deal with not playing and things like that.

But I think when I was playing, it was definitely much, you'd knock on the door of the manager and you'd have to... Direct relationship. You'd have a direct relationship. It's like, why I'm not playing and, you know, you'd have that. That's the agent now that speaks to the manager. Yeah, I mean, I've seen things now that I, I'm basically, I'm glad that I kind of got out when I did.

When I was 37, 38, I was still playing and I just saw, you know, agents up in the, in the, in the canteen every day, you know, going in to see why a player wasn't playing or, and I'd just you're like, why can't you just go and do it yourself? You just go and knock on the door and say, yeah, hell of a lot more now. And I think players hide behind their agents a little bit now, which is a shame. And yeah, they've got a role to play agents, but I do think those conversations need to be, you know, certainly you can have them yourself with the manager. But with regards to that, yeah, that toxic atmosphere, yeah, definitely when you're losing games,

that can be really bad, everyone pointed fingers, no one wants to look in a mirror. And there was certain, you know, players, individuals where you'd just be like, the other thing is when, you know, losing and people aren't playing, with social media now, you can put out, I mean, I've watched one certain player do nothing in training. You know, he'd be the last day and he'd be the first out every single day. He wouldn't even tie his laces when he was training. And then go home and he'd have someone filming him on Instagram and he's running up some stairs, you know, he's running around his drive and he's doing shut up.

And all the fans are like, why is he not playing? You know, he's working even harder at home. Look how hard he's working. He's not doing anything in training. I'm like, but, you know, that just shows you that how the wall can be pulled over fans' eyes and, you know, that you could not really get in the full story. This is another disadvantage of that direct form of communication. Yeah, they can counter negative headlines in the press, but they can also sell the fans

a complete lie about how hard they're working. A completely different story. And, you know, that's actually, like, yeah, like the back, so we say back stronger on my podcast. And it's very much like, we say that because it was just the loose term on people's social media that used to wind me up so much. What? Back stronger, right? Everyone used to say it. And it was like a hashtag.

It was like, you can write the tweet or the, or the Instagram message of every player who's ever lived, right? When they've played and they've lost away from home, it was like, sorry, we let you down. The fans were terrific today. We'll be back stronger next week, right? That, we used to laugh at that because I'd just be like, who are you trying to kid with this message, you know? You've barely tried. You know, we've got pumped and you're trying to say, you know,

you've been coating the fans off to everyone on the change room saying how badly were. And then it's the, you know, the generic... Diplomacy out front. The generic message. And the worst thing is, you see the replies after. And there's fans that are buying into it. And I think, yeah, I think it's definitely, I think people are kind of cottoned on to the sort of fact that,

you know, you can't pull the wool over these people's eyes. But for a long time, that was going on and it was frustrating a life at me. If you haven't been feeling as sharp or energized as you'd like, getting your blood work done is the best place to start, which is why I partnered with function. They run lab tests twice a year that monitor over 100 biomarkers. They've got a team of expert physicians that take the data, put it in a simple dashboard and give you actionable insights and recommendations to improve your health and lifespan. They track everything from your heart health, to your hormone levels, your thyroid function and nutrient deficiencies, they even screen for 50 types of cancer at stage one, which is five times more data than you get

from an annual physical. And getting your blood work done and drawn and analyzed like this would usually cost thousands, but with function, it is only $499. And right now, they're giving a thousand Modern Wisdom listeners, another $100 off, bringing it down to $399. So just go to the link in the description below or head to functionhealth.com slash modern wisdom. That's functionhealth.com slash modern wisdom is being funny a way of hiding how much the game hurts or is it a performance enhancer to kind of regulate when stuff's getting a little bit stressful well for me personally yeah yeah that coping mechanism or a performance enhancer yeah started as that you know like it started as as a as a defense mechanism um i just looked different i didn't look like

any normal footballer. You know, I've talked about this before, but, you know, all my heroes didn't look like me. And I was kind of, I mean, there were certain players that, you know, were taller, but, you know, I wanted to go past players. I wanted to, I wanted to have a good, I wanted to do skills. I wanted to score great volleys. I wanted to score, you know, I wanted to do things that, you know, players didn't look like me were doing.

And I think, yeah, certainly at school, you know, in that harsh environment of football, looking different and trying to fit in two different things. So, yeah, Tumour became a defence mechanism, became something that I managed to, you know, if someone wanted to say something negative about me, I would say it funnier and quicker than they were going to. And I think that kind of stood me in really good stead in life, really. So I think that's how my character developed, really.

And then it was like, well, I'm not going to say anything to him, he's going to be sharper and quicker and funny with whatever he's going to say. So that stopped very quickly. And I think certainly the harsh environment with fans, I think, you know, I came out and, you know, I'd laugh at myself before someone else could laugh at me. And I think something that started is a defence mechanism then kind of became my superpower. I think after football, it then became, oh God, there's a, you know, there's a footballer that can have a laugh. He can laugh at himself in an environment that is very take yourself seriously. It's very, you know, how good can we look? How polished can we look? I think, yeah, it might have been a quite a refreshing change for people that, oh, there's someone here that's doing well, he's successful, but you can also take the piss out of himself, which was, you know, for me sitting here now, it doesn't seem groundbreaking, but I think certainly when I was playing, it did feel a touch groundbreaking.

What gets considerably better about life when you stop playing? it's hard i mean it's a tough one to stop because it's all you've ever known right and um since you're a child yeah i think when i first retired i was very much like oh my own boss now i can do whatever i like i can you know go on a holiday at christmas things like that i can you know do something on a saturday um you know there's certain little things like that like even the first christmas dinner was amazing like genuinely as a footballer i'm in a hotel told New Year's Eve. Didn't see New Year in ever.

I'd been asleep by 10 o'clock. Christmas Day, very much like... Ready for boxing day. Yeah, I'd train Christmas Day. I mean, you know, I'd have a sandwich for turkey sandwich, maybe. That was about it. I'd eat pasta, chicken. I wouldn't have a Christmas dinner.

I'd certainly no alcohol because we'd play 26th, 28th, first, you know, seventh. there'd be consistent games over Christmas. So, yeah, that first, when I retired, it was like, right, I'm going to go for it Christmas Day, and I did, you know. My stomach didn't know what I did. Oh my God, I ate what I could. I drank a hell of a lot and I had a great time.

But then that wears thin, right? You're like, after the first Christmas year, that was great. I'd rather be playing. I genuinely would rather be doing what I love doing. I mean, actually thinking about it now, the Christmas Day training game, it was some of the best times

over had in my life. Just no one on the road. Everyone's with, you know, with the families. And I love my family's bits, but it's nice getting away for them sometimes. Just getting that fresh air, playing a sport. When everyone else is sitting around hungover, you are, you're ready to go. You're getting after it. Yeah, there is something smug about being so fit in a time.

The self-righteousness was as nourishing as the Christmas meal. Almost so, yeah. I think being my own boss was lovely, but I'll be honest with you, I work better in a kind of management environment. Me too. Me too. It's a it's so trite, right? But the reason that cliches exist is because they seem to be sticky enough to be fucking accurate. Grass always being greener. You know, you, when you were on the training ground, not fully appreciating how nice, it was fresh cold air, like that snappy British cold air 9 a.m. in the morning. It's nice, right? It fills your lungs up. And at the same time, you're like, oh, we'd, a national

is complaining. It's complaining first and football second. And you want to be, I wish I could have should have laid in this morning. The kids are going to be a nightmare when I get back. I'm not even going to get to get a roast today. You know, da-da-da-da-da-da-da. Like just as you're waiting to do drills and everyone's chirping away, like just in a little kid, like the classic thing. And then as soon as you finish up, what is it? You miss the thing that's on the other side. So I think that to be honest, I think that that's kind of the perennial condition for humans across everything. You're, you know, deep in university and you just wish that you could get out. I'm so bored of

this lecture. I'm so bored. This course is stupid. And then you get into employment, whatever career you go into and you go, I wish that was, you know, I remember when I used to go back to lectures and we'd sit at the back and we'd just be able to chill out and we'd be able to have snake bite in the union at 11 in the morning on a Tuesday. Like, wasn't that cool? And then you get out at that and you're like, yeah, I just really want to have a family. I spend all this time on my own. I want to have a partner. And then you have to sleep in bed next to someone. and they're too hot all the time. And you're like, fuck, I just wish I was on my own again.

You missed to have a family. And then you start to have a family. And you're like, fuck, I just wish I could sleep in on a morning. The kids are bouncing everywhere. And then you're sick of your job and you want to retire. And then you retire and you think, fuck, I wish I was back at work. And this is, I think, the perennial human condition all the way through. And humor laughing at kind of the absurdity of it all, I think is a pretty good prophylactic against that.

Yeah, I think we do complain. And as footballers, we complained about the smallest things. You know, if one thing was wrong, we were on it. What are some of the more silly complaints that you can recall? Mainly about sessions, you know, like I did my coaching badges when I retired. And I got up to kind of UEFA license. And my respect for coaches and managers now is just through the roof. You know, and I think about what I was like and what we were like to coaches.

if he got the one number wrong or gave the wrong bib to someone or you know the cone was out of place we were on him right it was like oh my god this is a shambles you know this you're a disgrace you can't manage you can't coach genuine that's the slightest thing and then i think about it now when i was in that environment of being a coach and i think this is hard this is tough how you get clenckless task yeah how you get all these egos in one in various positions and pull them around and tell them what to do is an incredible feat really. So my respect went through the roof for coaches when I did my badges. Yeah, I mean, I remember the same thing with cricket,

that it is, I think maybe a little bit of it is trying to invert some of the power, that you know there's a power imbalance, that these are the guys who, in some form or another, are kind of in charge of life or death for you and you are being held to a high standard. It's the same as it's the same as seeing a police officer texting while he drives and he go, hey, I know you're going to enforce this on me. So this is my opportunity to be self-righteous and very British about it.

Everybody turns into cycling Mikey when when there was like a hundred percent. I'd love to say that. I would tell him as well. and yeah i think i think part of it is we're going to revert this this power imbalance between the two of us and um but yeah we i think the humor thing okay this is absurd and and it's difficult to do in the moment because we especially even you are more laissez-faire philosophy when it came to the way that you played than maybe the more kind of intense negatively

focused guys, we'll still have been focusing on a lot of the negatives of how can I get better and where should I improve and so on and so forth. If that's the case, you know that there are going to be things in this situation that in future you're going to look back on with fondness and you know that there are, and those are things that you're ignoring right now. And you also know that whatever it is that you want, you're going to pick holes in that thing in future. So maybe trying to be a little bit less confident in what you think is what you want you know you're like I just think I'm doing this thing right now and I'll just

make you know I've been whining this week you're the ninth episode in this location it's been so much fun and beautiful and my favorite location of anywhere I've filmed over you know like a thousand episodes the seat's not that comfortable I've been sat in the seat like 25 hours this week and I've got this like little bruise on my lower back. And I'm getting in on a night time, I'm like, oh, my back hurts, like my lower back hurts. I'm not going to remember the fucking bruise on my back in six months time, but I'll remember how much fun it was to be here with the guys and to do ad reads and throw AG1 and element

packets around and stuff like that, you know. So just, again, I wonder, I'm sure that this is kind of, like I say, a perennial human issue, but I think it's a distinctively British brand of it as well. Like the complaining, like cycling Mikey dynamic is like a particular thing. So just trying to keep that in mind, I think might be a nice way for people to let go of that stress. I think the character thing like you mentioned there, I think being adaptables, the thing that the thing that I think we forget about. I think people have these goals, like you say, and you set the goals and if you don't reach them, it's a failure. you know, whereas I'll have a goal

and I've had it my whole life, really. My ultimate goal was football. But then when I retired, I was like, right, what do I do now? And it was a real worry to be, you know, kind of jobless and think to myself, you know, how am I going to keep myself busy? And I might have a goal. But that goal for me would change every turn. It's a kind of a tree, I suppose, and then the branches keep coming off.

And you're like, I'll follow this. one. And I think, you know, people have always said to me, like, you know, yeah, I've been lucky enough to have quite a successful career after football. But it wasn't, it wasn't structured or thought out. It was very much like, that's an opportunity. I'll take that. You know, that's another opportunity. I'll do that. And I think, you know, I was lucky the fact that those opportunities arose, but I do think being adaptable and taking your mind off the ultimate goal at times and you know there'd be plenty of elite people do you speak to who said i have i have one laser focus that i hone in on right well that's not my way that wasn't my way and isn't my way i

think um yeah i had a focus i have a goal but i also kind of can adapt to situations and make the best of the situation you are you're given i always felt not not quite like a fraud but certainly like insufficient by the standards that I knew were supposed to be gold standard. I started doing the show. A lot of it was about productivity. It's been good to seven years. And nearly eight, actually, fuck. And when I first started, you know, I was 30.

And I'm like this adult infant trying to wrangle my life into order a little bit. I was at university, full-time uni until I was 24. So I spent a long time on the train tracks, not too dissimilar to you, although you kept going a lot longer. And then you step off and you're freewheeling, no idea how to drive. And I'm trying to get my life in order. And a big part of it is, okay, so you need a 25-year plan. It's broken down into five-year periods, and it's one-year, like, chunks, and it's 90-day sprints, and it's daily actions. And you know, and you sort of, and I had no, just couldn't seem to get any further than

about six months out. I couldn't ever really see much further. And I was like, oh, God, I'm supposed to have a plan. I'm supposed to know where I'm going and all the rest of it. And I understand why, especially if you've got a little bit of a nervous disposition or you prefer a bit more order instead of chaos or structure like you do and I do too. Because without the structure, everything's a little bit scary and sort of I don't really know how the fuck it's going to go. but I don't think that that's necessarily a sort of less viable approach for doing things and especially if you are planning on stuff going very well, which everybody hopes that it's going to, you know what happens.

If the line starts to go vertical in whatever industry it is that you're doing, the options that come out, it's stuff that you didn't even know that you didn't even know existed. You go, well, how was I supposed to prepare for this thing? that I wasn't even aware that I wasn't even aware was an option. Like, oh my God. So in that case,

the plan would be out of the window within six months. Oh, I've got my 25 year, five year, blah, blah, blah. You're like, okay, six months into this, the 2026, it's like, fuck, it's out the window. So I think being adaptable

and being flexible and not feeling too bad, oh, I don't have a plan, I don't know what I'm supposed to. It's like, all right, are you talented, do you work hard and are you consistent? You probably don't need to worry all that mode. I just think, like, obviously, the way I was in football is the way I've carried it on into my life after football is that I think you do have to enjoy the journey.

And I think, yeah, people might be laser focused. They might be more successful than me. But I know it doesn't make them happier than me, right? And I think, what is success in life, right? It surely, to me, it's happiness, right? And if I'm happy, yeah, I might not be as elite or won as many things as certain. people, but I've been happy the whole way along doing it. And again, now, I think I do things that I enjoy and I'm obviously very lucky that I've got the opportunity to do that. But I think

because I enjoy it, I think people kind of enjoy it with me. Well, it's also enabled you, the enjoyment of you doing the thing has enabled new things because you're having fun along the way. It's opened up these options. There are certain things that you can sort of grit your teeth through in a way. And I think that going from elite sport, what's interesting, going from elite sport where you're almost encouraged to ignore your emotions in replacement of the performance to what you do now, which is your emotions are the performance. The better your moods, the better the outcome for you having a chat or feeling relaxed or coming in here and having a laugh. And, you know, wow, there's that memory that I feel like in a good place with Chris today. I'm energized and my

brain's working like. Because I slept last night because I wasn't too stressed. As a opposed to it doesn't matter how you feel, get on the pitch, run fast, and kick the ball in the goal. And yeah, I think it's a different sort of skill set, one that requires you to feel, I think about this with comedians all the time, you know, your job is to go on stage and bring a vibe and make people laugh. So you have, maybe a therapist perhaps would be, would be something similar, you know, you need to be attuned and regulated. If you're spending all of your time, have an argument with your misses, how are you supposed to turn up and do your thing? And I'm aware that that's going to be difficult as a football player too. I'm sure that turning up after you've had

a fight with the bird is not. You know, bizarrely, that is actually, it's actually my bed, the best football I ever played was when I was having problems off the film. It's a performance enhancer. Yeah, yeah. For me, for me, it was, yeah. I was like, do you think that was you to? You know why? Because it's, it's a safe place. It's like, whatever's going on in the world, I'm to go here and I'm going to play football. A little sanctuary. Yeah, I'm going to get away from. And I think quite often with footballers in general, like quite often the players that I've

met or been around have had tough upbringings, hard lives. And their escapism has always been kicking, I kick a ball around, right? Whatever's going on in the house, you know, their mum might be arguing with their dad, there might be fights, you know, there's problems. You go out, you kick a ball around, all that goes away. And genuinely, that's how I, how I, how I, how I, felt it was if I had problems off the field I'll go in there and at the moment obviously when I was playing professional football the minute I drive through those gates it's like I've

left all those problems behind it's like I've left them at the gate and now I'm all I'm going to do is be a nine-year-old kid again I'm going to go and play football with my mates I'm going to have a laugh and then yeah there'll be a world of problems out there the minute I'll go through those gates again but that's that's when I end up going the gym and you know eat in and Running up and down the stairs and videoing it on Instagram. That's it, you know. Yeah, that's, I mean, maybe you're right. Maybe the comedians that are really struggling are able to find...

I think that's harder for them. Yeah, you're bringing an emotional vibe as opposed to kind of forgetting it. It's, you know, it's less embodied as well. I think difference between, let's say, doing comedy and being a dancer, both people are on stage. Both people need to bring a vibe. But one is getting to kind of, like, release some of that tension a little bit by moving their body.

and uh same not true if you're if you're jimmy car speaking of jimmy car though um his what is the meaning of life his five word thing uh enjoying the passage of time and what you said about there are people who are maybe more successful than me but also more miserable or at the very least less happy you should be asking yourself a question what are you doing this for presumably it is something like enjoying the passage of time i'm trying to be successful so that i feel good. Generally, so that I feel good. And if in the pursuit of being successful, I make myself feel miserable, you're sacrificing the thing that you want, which is success, for the thing which is supposed to get the thing that you want. Well, that's it. I think that's what work in general

is. Like, you know, I think obviously the financial gain and things like that is, you know, certainly people want money so they can provide a more comfortable, happy lifestyle, I think. And, And, you know, if you can achieve that without, without, you know, working so hard or putting yourself through that pain, if it is pain or if it's hard, then if you can achieve that, it's kind of almost like a cheat code. If you're happy, you know, when is it enough? You know, like, how much do you need to be happy? I think everyone wants to be comfortable, of course.

But I think people who are in a, you know, a job that they don't like and, you know, they feel like they have to do it. It's such a difficult space, especially in this day and age for people to juggle. Well, there's certainly a case where if you already live a comfortable life and are choosing to reduce your quality of life in order to make more money than it's a bad trade. Yeah, totally disagree. I think the happiness is the most important thing. I think having a household that you enjoy coming back to is so important. You know, when you walk through the door, you're going like, oh, I've got to go in there, you know, because there are people that do that, you know, and thankfully I don't. I go home and I think, I look around and I'm happy and I want,

you know, I just hope everyone else feels that way, but, you know, it's hard and they, you know, they probably, probably don't. It's a difficult, the difficult situation to navigate. Before we continue, if your sleep's not right, you're taking ages to nod off, waking up at random times and feeling groggy in the morning, Momentus's sleep hacks are here to help. They're not your typical knock you out supplement overloaded with melatonin, just the most evidence-based ingredients at perfect doses to help you fall asleep more quickly, stay asleep throughout the night and wake up, feeling more rested and revitalized in the morning.

I'm banking on you not being able to hit me. That's why I take these every single night, especially when I'm on the road and why I trust Momentus worth my life. All right, okay, there we go, or at least my sleep, because they make the highest quality supplements on the planet. What you see on the label is what's in the product and absolutely nothing else. And if you're still unsure, they've got a 30-day money-back guarantee. So you can buy it and try it every night, 29 nights, 30 nights in fact.

And if you don't like it for any reason, they will give you your money back. That's how confident they are that you love it. Plus, they ship internationally. Right now you can get 35%. He's run out of ammo. Right now you can get 35% off your first subscription and that 30-day money-back guarantee by heading to live momentous.com slash modern wisdom and code modern wisdom at checkout. That's L-I-V-E-M-O-M-O-M-T-O-U-S dot com slash modern wisdom and modern wisdom at checkout.

Talking about emotions and sort of casting that stuff off, how did you do? deal with anxiety, adrenaline, performance stress when you were playing? Yeah, it's such a, I've overcome it in lots of different ways, but the nervousness used to get to be bad. Like, when were you most nervous? I think it mellowed towards the end of my career. Like, certainly when I got to a level where I was comfortable, I was playing for Liverpool, playing for England, And people knew who I was, so I didn't have to keep proving myself. I think when I was young, I had to prove myself in every single match. It was very much like, he can't play.

And I was like, I'll show you. That was my whole life until I was about 24. And then when I was playing for England, when I was playing for Liverpool, everyone kind of, oh, he can play. I had to kind of stop. Obviously, I still had to keep proving myself, but it became a little bit easier. But the nervousness, yeah, I mean, in the early days, certainly my first.

I mean, I remember, I've told this story before, but I was on the, I got in my first England squad and I'm, I got, I was, I was starting the game and I remember again, when the new Wembley was getting built we were playing at Old Trafford, and I'm on the bus, and I've got, you know, I'm sitting next to Stephen Gerard, Wayne Rooney's here, Rio Ferdinand, David Beck and Gary Neville,

Michael Owen, all, you know, household names, right, I'm sitting on this bus. I'm just thinking to myself, I'm looking around and I'm going, right, I'm starting now for England, number nine, and I'm looking around at all these players, I'm thinking, you know, basically how did I get here?

A bit of imposter syndrome. Yeah, a little bit. I was thinking, well, like, these players are, you know, I watch these on the TV, you know. They're world-class players, and now I'm one of them, right? And then I remember sitting down, I remember looking down at this pub

where we were stuck in traffic on the way to Old Trafford. And there was a fella there with a, we had a pint and a paper. And I just thought, I'd love to be him right now. Any escape to get off the bus? Well, I just thought the nerves that were going through my body and I'm thinking the whole nation is watching this.

All this stuff is going through my brother, like all my friends and family, don't mess this up. I'm thinking I'm looking at this fella now. He's got a pint of Guinness and he's not got a care in a world. No pressure. But obviously at that time, I would think, I wonder if I could swap with him. But then after the game,

when you do when you overcome those nerves and you you've done well or you've scored and you thought back to your thought process before the game and then the thought process after and the buzz the natural high that I've got you just wouldn't change it for anything it's the best feeling that you could ever have and I've ever had in my life and then you know and then the next game I'm back to square one I'm at that nervous energy again yeah But there's something special about it. And, you know, I've managed to do it in my life since. I think we did a show for the BBC and it was 40 euros. It was live just after every England game. And, you know, I was the host of it. And it was, you know, someone was in your ear. And basically, I'm going live on BBC and I'm thinking there's millions

going to be watching this. And that adrenaline kind of, even though I'm not playing football anymore, I kind of still got it. It was like, right, 10, 9. and you get in the countdown, right? And then I'm thinking, don't swear, don't fall over. And then you think, I don't want to be here. And then you go over it, the show goes really well.

And you think that was just such a buzz, yeah. Yeah, so cool. It's so funny how you just loop back to that same. Each realization then gets your memory wipe. It's like someone shakes the etcher sketch. And you go, I'm back to start. I want to be the guy with the Guinness again. Yeah, yeah, I don't want to be the guy with the Ginnis.

Yeah, yeah. Perpetual loop. Yeah, I, um, was there a period as well? So you said on the bus was a specific time of nerved. Dressing room, tunnel, when does that start to drop off? Is there a moment typically that was sort of peak adrenaline anxiety and then when it tailed? Yeah, I think, you know, I would, I was very good at masking it. Like, um, certainly in the, in the dressing room beforehand, I would always be, you'd think I was the most relaxed man in a room in a room. room. You know, I was laughing and joking. I would always, you know, people would get in the zone and have music on. I tried that a couple of times. I was like, it's not for me. I'm too, too much in my own thoughts. I want to bounce off people, have a laugh, do a few keep-y-ups, take my mind off

what's really about to happen. So, yeah, outwardly, people would think, are super confident, but inside I'm thinking, you know, I'm- That's another coping mechanism to come for. Yeah, just being around people. I had that with the live shows. So I'm going on tour around America and Canada at the back end of this year. And I did the Apollo, three and a half thousand people last November. And I tried a bunch of different things. I got a breathwork coach and I'm going to do breath work. Are you nervous? I was shitting myself. I was shitting myself before I found the way to get ready, at least for me. And a lot of the things that I love to do in my personal development life, the breathworks, the journaling, the meditation, the little mantra stuff,

all of that I thought, well, I've got tons of experience in this. I've got thousands of sessions of doing this. So I'll lean on what I know, but it's at least for me, and I resonate with what you say that I tried a strategy that worked for other people or may have even worked for you, but in a different situation. It didn't work for me in this one. So the best thing that I've found, and this, I've got addiction and speech coach to do tongue warmups to ensure that I'm able to pronounce my words nice and quickly and I've got my brain moving. I'm doing improv exercises. The best thing I found was just to get 10 of my loud friends in the dressing room and talk shit. That is exactly how I do it as well, genuinely. Yeah, just get in, take your

mind off things. There are people that, like, that you say that laser focus that don't speak to me. I'm in the zone. You know, I'm not one of those people. I need chaos around me. me, you know, just, let's just talk, you know, yeah, yeah, we've got, you know, we've got a cup final, you know, we're playing at a World Cup. But I think the more I took my mind of things, the more relaxed I was, the better I was. You still have those nerves and that adrenaline, which you need, I think, to compete at the highest level. But you, you, those nerves that hold you back, you get rid of those. Yeah, I would agree. One of the other sets of stats that I saw, have you seen the statistics around how many players go bankrupt after retiring? Seems like

around about 40% of Premier League players got bankrupt within five years of retirement. Have you got any idea what's going on there? Maybe even for the Americans, British footballers in the Premier League, really regardless of how often you're playing, are paid incredibly well. It's an amount of money that to most normal people, I think,

or even probably quite wealthy people, it's going to be tough to burn through that, especially in five years. And yet 40% of Premier League players go bankrupt within five years. years of retirement. Why do you think that is? Yeah, I think, you know, bad advice. I mean, there was a program I watched last night,

two nights ago. Just, you know, certain people, there's, there's sharks around football dresser rooms that, you know, they know that players are very well paid. And if they can get on the inside of that dress room, then, you know, various financial advisors that have advised badly, that definitely doesn't help. bad investments

you know the pain the difficulty of dealing with not playing football every day not having that structure drinking you know maybe doing things that they shouldn't be doing you know breakups of marriages you know it can hit you financially

in lots of different ways and I was very conscious of that because I've seen it first hand you know two three of the play I've played with three players that tried to kill themselves and I'm not speaking out of turn because they come on my podcast and talks about it

and Lee Hendry was one of them who I had no idea you know, Aston Villa he was going through that kind of you know he was post-retirement Yeah, post-retirement you know he had a divorce You know he went bankrupt And the same thing And you know he was in a situation

But because of football It was very much of that kind of man-up scenario He didn't feel like I'm a good friends with him He never said one word to me Even after you're not longer in the dressing room so that man-up mentality is carried over into personal life after playing you want to save face i mean you know this is this is a player that played at top level play for england you know one thing is his home club you know astern villa you know he's from

birmingham he's a legend in the area you know everyone knows him and you know i think yeah i i had a conversation with him after and i just i wish i'd kind of wish i'd known more you know um Clark Carlis, a player I play with QPR, you know, I'm not speaking out of turn, these are well-documented things, you know, he's admitted himself that he jumped in front of I think was a bus.

You know, this is horrendous, you know, and it's like, how do you get to that point? The player that I knew, the person that I knew, was so far away from that. You know, he was a leader, he was our captain. Just, you don't know what's going on in people's heads, is my

situation and is what I'm to say and um you obviously feel for for these players and and i do think that more needs to be done to to help players that you know kind of aren't fortunate enough to maybe maybe work after football and um it is it's a tough tough situation i know they're going for it obviously with the in the NFL you know quite often the players are going bankrupt there or um you know the injuries are horrendous as well um maybe there's not not quite enough aftercare for these for these players i don't need to talk about that i looked at some stats around the severity of CTE for football players, our football, heading the ball, as somebody who has some records to do with using their head and the ball. Is this something

that you've tapped into to have a look at? Have you done brain scans? Are you concerned? I have, yeah. You know what? Like the, and listen, you know, I'm not, I'm not sell poor football as we head the ball, you know, like I'm pretty sure boxers have it worse than we do, you know? But there is definitely a link. It's been proven that there is a link between heading the ball and dementia, and that did concern me because I headed the ball.

I mean, listen, when I was a kid, I wasn't very good at heading. So, like I said before, I wanted to be a skillful player, I wanted to be the type of player that, you know, with his feet, Fast feet, not big head. Yes.

But then I was like six foot five and losing headers to people that were, you know, five foot five. It was embarrassing, basically. So I had to train myself to be good in the air. And I remember being 13, 14, 15, my skull's growing. And I would head the ball until I couldn't see anymore. I would head it consistently because I thought it was practice, right? I didn't know the concerns now, obviously. but I genuinely used to get someone's across the middle ball

and I'd head it consistently until I could start. I saw stars. And I would do that as a young lad three, four times a week until I'd be like, right, I can't see anything anymore. Stars in my eyes. Sessions over. Sessions over, yeah. And then I'd be back at it the next day.

So I cannot be good for you. It cannot be good for you. So yeah, I did. I think it was Alan Shearer who did a documentary about it. and I um so I watched that documentary and I booked myself in the next day I was like I need to I need to see someone about and you know obviously I'm okay at the moment but I think it's something that I'm just aware of now which is which is a good thing um I'm more aware of the fact that perhaps I need to look out for for signs of this yeah it's uh I don't know I I I'll just

have to do a little bit more research I think you're right certainly boxes are in the firing line a little bit more. But there is something about the kinetic like power of a big sometimes wet with water on it, making it heavier ball coming and the pace that it comes in at and the fact that you're going to meet it as opposed to even if you're being punched, you're tending to move backward as that happens. Yeah, it's not good. I was thinking about Tim Kennedy, UFC fighter Green Beret man from Austin, Texas, scary. He, talked about sort of what the early days of UFC training were like, and it was not touch sparring. It was, people got knocked down in training, whereas now the last thing that

you wanted to concussion at any point, especially in training, I guess you'd take one in the match, in the fight, I guess, other than the fact it means that you've lost, but because it is predisposing you not only to all of these really scary health problems down the line, but it's also predisposing you to them be knocked out more easily in subsequent fights and stuff like that and now the world is totally different it's all sort of very light sort of touch sparring stuff and that is their solution to sort of keep themselves safe I wonder it wouldn't surprise me if you looked at the youth set up now if when they're practicing heading the ball they're using a particularly lighter ball in some way I have to assume there's some sort of interventions that are happening

not there's kids don't head the ball now they don't head the ball now there's a certain age bracket you have to be over a certain age it's all below head height until they get to a certain age where they're allowed to yeah I mean at the schools and stuff like that they don't they don't head it at all for this reason yeah for this reason yeah it's come in

and you know there's they'll play matches where it's it's no heads not you're not allowed to edit and I think yeah I mean listen I ended up with the most Premier League headed goals I've got the record to this day

And so I'm over the moon about that situation. The least people hit it, I'll love that forever, hopefully, you know. Oh, good. I realize you meant that this is a moat that's not being graded around you. No, no, no, it's just good for me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I think it's a good thing. I think it's a good thing that, you know, that we're more aware of the situations now.

And I think, you know, I would think twice, listen, my, my child, I would not encourage him to, to be working on heading at, you know, they're 67, and their brains are far too fragile, and I don't know whether it's me going soft or what, but, you know, the science behind it now just pushes me to the fact that I don't think we should be practicing heading certainly at that age. Would it be harder, do you think, to be a footballer today with social media and smartphone use,

I have to assume that the stories of you partying while you were playing might be a little bit more viral or at least a little bit more widely scrutinised now than it would have been in 2006. Yeah, I think I would find it tough to be a player in this day and age.

I mean, listen, it was hard enough getting yourself psyched up to go to a waygrounds back in that, you know, and that was bad enough because you knew you were just going to get abuse from the moment you left the bus all the way, you know,

for that little walk where you get absolutely screamed at, You get into the stadium, you just got 50, 60, 70,000 people screaming abuse at you. That was bad enough. Then to get home and get back on the bus and flick on my phone and see thousands of other people abusing you, I think would be incredibly hard. And no matter what you say, you say, just don't look at it, right? And we're all the same. You know, people do.

You can't help it. It's a drug, isn't it? You got the app on your phone. You use it when you're not getting shit. So I'm going to use it. Oh, fuck, I'm getting shit. Yeah. And I mean, you know, my way of.

coping with having a bad game, for instance, was I wouldn't buy the newspapers the next day, and I'd give them match to the day a miss. You know, that was, that was pretty much it. Much easier to hide. Yeah, that was easier for me to not listen to the, to the negativity. Whereas nowadays, I think, you know, that negativity, and everyone is very, it's more extreme now. It's very much like, you have to be, you know, you're the worst player in the world, or you're the best player anyone's ever seen.

You know, there's no gray areas, is there? You have to be one or the other. Thank you. Thank you. What do you make of the British fan culture around football? Because it's only since moving to America that I have seen sports where different teams intermingle. I guess rugby has this but the atmosphere

of a rugby game is quite different I remember seeing a video of an American guy that I come over to the UK and he said that watching sports in the UK is like watching two armies of people getting ready to go to war for people who don't live in the

UK and haven't been to a Premier League English Premier League game it's kind of it's probably pretty shocking I think actually to observe what fans do to each other verbally and what they do to the players and that level of aggression and vitriol and intensity, what do you make of that? Did you obviously be totally honest? I wouldn't change it for the world.

I genuinely love it. I think the game of football, as I know it, I mean, when I look at games. that I want to go to, for instance, right? I want to go to an old firm game, Rangers and Celtic. I've not done that yet. I want to go to River Plate versus Bocca Juniors in Argentina. I want to go to the, you know, Brazil derbies. I want to go to derbies, games that matter.

I want to see red and blue. And I want to see, and that tribalism for me makes our game so special. And I do understand there's a time and a place and I've been to rugby matches and I've been to cricket games. I've been to, you know, games where it isn't segregated. And I have the time of my life. I have a lovely time. I'm sitting next to someone, you know, an Irish fan and England and Ireland are playing in Scotland.

Sorry, England and Ireland are playing a rugby. And I'm having a beer with them. And that's great. But there is something to be said about, I hate you. I want to win so much. I do think that that this kind of game of ours is, that's what it is. It's religion. It's, you know, quite often it is religion.

that's, you know, come together through football. And it makes the game more passionate and more, and yeah, it overspills. And people go too far. Don't get me wrong. Like, there are occasions where it goes too far, you know, the hooliganism, you know, that era, I hope that's behind us, there are still people that take it too far. We don't want to see that. Of course we don't.

But I still do want to see, you know, that hatred. When I was playing for Liverpool and I went to Goodison Park and I could see the hatred on people's faces. Like, I enjoyed it. I enjoy that. I want to see that. Yeah. You got a bit of a buzzer.

As long as you shake hands after the game and you go, right, you know, we've done it. That's that. There is something, you know, the tackles flying in. I don't know whether it's a bit old school, but it makes me, you know, you can see the way I'm talking about it. I'm animated. I'm like, we can't take this away from the game that we love. It is, it overspills sometimes.

But for me, that passion is what makes the game special. It would be very difficult to police. You know, if you were to say. this is too thug-like it is unsophisticated and we need to step in and and change the game good luck with that good look I mean what what by law do you intend on trying to apply and enforce to English football fans at evident derby no I don't I don't want anyone to change that. Listen, when we go away sometimes with England, things spill over and, you know, no one

wants to see it. And, but that passion has to remain. I think you can be passionate for your team, you know, and almost a borderline aggressive at times. Disrespectful in the stadium, respectful on the walk home. Yeah, I think so. And, you know, I see that this football's changed from when I was, when I used to go to football with my dad in the 80s.

And my dad would tell you in the 70s before. football's changed a hell of a lot now I see a lot more families attending games and yeah there is still that tribalism but it's controlled you've been with your wife for nearly 20 years now is that rare for an ex-professional football or I don't know

how successful very long term during career to post career and further marriages are I don't know what the attrition rate of a professional football as marital life I'd say lower I'd say you know

definitely lower than 20 years. I think, you know, we are lucky in that respect and happy. So I've seen lots of players go through the mill and have difficulties quite often when they've finished around that transition. Yeah, quite often as well, you know, you're away a lot, you know, especially if you're playing with England and you're playing in Europe, you're away most of the time, really. and quite often if you're if you if you if you if you've retired and you're at home every day and all of a sudden it's like who are you you're here every day so you're saying maybe um

the distance can hide some yeah incompatibilities in in relationships that then sort of come to the surface when when why why you hear so much oh shit you've retired you're not a training you're not playing yeah you know and it's very much like I don't want this to be my life you know I think that case, obviously depression, you know, kicks in, I think, certainly when it's very hard to recreate those heights of playing football and achieving things playing in front of being adored by so many people and scoring a goal. Been forgotten about, what does my life mean now? Yeah, and it's self-reflection, isn't it?

I mean, that can be very difficult. But yeah, for me and Abby, we are happy, yeah, and continue to be. And, yeah, God, we have our moments, like, you know, and we play that out in front of everyone on the podcast but um we have a laugh and i think that is genuinely the uh the the the key to our success is the fact that we enjoy people we enjoy our company what would be your advice to somebody trying to have a partnership in the limelight um well certainly don't take things too seriously i think um you know definitely don't be someone you're not i've i've realized that you know and i've seen it so many times with people i've

over the years you're like whoa so different to the person that you come across us you know and i think um i think the one thing that certainly whether you dislike me or or avi i think the one thing that you can't say is that we're not the same people anyone around us who listens to our podcast or or or meets us out and about would say that we are we're exactly the same as as what you see um wherever you see it yeah i think one of the fortunate things about longer form conversations especially if you start getting in the mix and you're hosting your guesting sometimes it's solo sometimes it's with regular people sometimes it's with new experts sometimes it you want in a 200 year old church um by doing that it is a pretty good

solvent to strip away too much fakery. It's really tough to hold a persona for hundreds of hours a year. The amount of people that I meet, and I've been fortunate enough to meet so many, you know, amazing people, people I respect to look up to. And, yeah, it's amazing when you actually kind of do strip them back, get the real them, that you think, I wish I hadn't met them.

I wish I just kept it like that. But then on the flip side of that, I have met people that I thought, you know, maybe you wouldn't get on with that you think, oh my God, they're amazing. And that is a lovely, because regardless of what you think you do, you do make judgments,

you make instant judgments on people wherever you go. And even if you haven't met them, if I watch something, you know, they might be acting. And I'm already making a judgment. on what they're like as a person. I suppose that's one of the problems of people getting pigeonholed by roles.

You know, some of the guys from the in-betweeners or some of the guys from American Pie or whatever. You launch your career into such a particular niche. And not only do future casting directors struggle to pull you outside of that, but the general public. I have a friend that was on a really famous American TV show and we were in Soho House.

and uh in in austin texas we sat down at dinner me him and two friends and like hen party comes in turns sees him all of them squeal like ah toby and like point and my friend is like ugh it was almost like because the show's been out for quite a while now but this was huge 10 15 years ago And he lived through all of that. And it was almost like watching it happen was a little bit like someone flicking a special switch that put him back into this war zone he'd come from previously because it was a trigger of somebody doesn't see me.

Somebody sees this thing, I'm this representation. And it was evident that most of his interact, not most, some of his interactions from the past had not been superbly validating. They'd been in many ways probably invalidating. Like, I don't see you. It would be like someone looking at you and seeing number nine or seeing 140 whatever goal things.

Like, it'd be like that. But at the very least, you are the person that you are on the pitch. It's just this special version of you as opposed to, yeah, as an actor, that must be so tough. I was a comedian. Oh, fucking hell, mate. I thought you were funnier than this.

I'm in the newspaper. You're getting the newspaper for the morning. I'm getting coffee. You know what I mean? Fucking hell. Like, you know, dance, dance monkey dance. Yeah, I do, I'm listening, I get it myself. You know, like, I did a funny dance years ago.

And still, to this day, people come over to me and say, do the robot, do the robot. Everywhere I go, there's kids that weren't even born when I was doing the robot. And they were like, they say it to me. And that's something that I've kind of learned to live with. But I actually love it. I absolutely love it. Like, it's something that is part of me, you know? I did this mental dance when I scored.

But you do need to own it. You did this to you. Yeah, I did. But it came from a good place, right? I came from, I'm going to, this is going to be funny. And it, you know, it was. And then, but even now, like, I'm trying to think when I did it, 2005, right? 20 years.

Right. So I've got kids eight years old. I'm guarantee if I walk down the street here now, there'll be someone to shout something about the robot. And they're eight years old And I think, you know, you weren't You weren't born when this was happening But the fact that, you know, that people enjoy it

And I see the smile on people's faces like I don't buy into this kind of You know, you've done something great You've done something that's resonated with people You've done so if you are acting And yeah, you have been pigeonholed a little bit But it resonate with people, people love it Like do you

Embrace it? Yeah, that's what I try and do. Dude, you've got such a, I think you've got such a great philosophy around this. And, like, you're really living it. It's very admirable. And I think it's a wonderful role model for how to deal with attention well. Yeah, no, I appreciate that. Thank you.

It certainly seems like that. And, again, just to, like, laugh it off. Well, that's it. You know, like, listen, it can get a bit much. If I'm, if I'm, you know, walking somewhere with the family and some, you know, a couple of group of lads are shouting it, I might say, leave it. A year old with me. Give us a rest.

But the kids, when I see the kids' faces and they're like, go on, like, I usually tell them I've got a robot injury, so I can't do it. That's like your dad with the hamstring. That's it. But they just, you know, they want to see it. And it's a bit of fun. You think, you know, that might make their day. So, you know, why not?

Oh, yeah. Peter Crouch, ladies and gentlemen. You're awesome, man. No, thank you. I really appreciate you. Where should people go to keep up to date with all the stuff that you're doing right now? Yeah, no, I do that Peter Crouch podcast. I do the therapy Crouchment. So that Peter Crouch podcast is the football podcast I do, which is very tongue and cheek. We have a laugh,

but we've been everywhere doing it. We've ended up. We interviewed Prince William. We've had Elton John on. We've had Sir Rod Stewart. We did recently. We've been to places that we never thought we would be, you know, and that's just all having a laugh and talk about football. So that is something that I love to do. And the therapy crouch is obviously a play on words with myself and my wife, Abby, and we talk about relationships, and we have a laugh at our own relationships, very tongue-in-cheek again. But I love doing it, and hopefully I continue to do it. And it's a privilege being on yours, you know, continue to do what you do. It's great. Thank you, man. I appreciate you. Appreciate it. Thank you very much for tuning in to an episode with the tallest Modern Wisdom

guest of all time. If you want to watch one with potentially the most dangerous, Bugsie Malone, British rapper, all-round interesting human, he's right here. Come on. If you are looking for new reading suggestions, look no further than the Modern Wisdom Reading List. It is 100 books that you should read before you die. The most interesting, life-changing and impactful books I've ever read with descriptions about why I liked them and links to go and buy them. And you can get it right now for free by going to chriswillex.com slash books. That's chriswillex.com slash books.