Modern Wisdom - #1042 - Dr Andrew Huberman - How to Reclaim Your Brain in 2026

Episode Date: January 5, 2026

Dr Andrew Huberman is a neuroscientist, Associate Professor at the Stanford University School of Medicine and a podcaster. There’s an overwhelming amount of information on how to level up your body and mind, and it can be difficult to know where the latest science truly stands. Thankfully, Dr. Andrew Huberman breaks down the research on habits, the brain, sleep, supplements, and his personal go-to protocols. Expect to learn why high cortisol isn’t actually a bad think to have a lot of, Andrew’s advice on how to overcome burnout, what the new science of better sleep would be, how to make and set better habits easier, what Andrew thinks of the new “protein in everything” trend, the next wave of supplements to take to optimise your life, Andrew’s take on religion and faith and much more… Sponsors: See discounts for all the products I use and recommend: ⁠https://chriswillx.com/deals⁠ Get a Free Sample Pack of LMNT’s most popular flavours with your first purchase at https://drinklmnt.com/modernwisdom Get a free bottle of D3K2, an AG1 Welcome Kit, and more when you first subscribe at https://ag1.info/modernwisdom Get 35% off your first subscription on the best supplements from Momentous at https://livemomentous.com/modernwisdom New pricing since recording: Function is now just $365, plus get $25 off at https://functionhealth.com/modernwisdom Extra Stuff: Get my free reading list of 100 books to read before you die: ⁠https://chriswillx.com/books⁠ Try my productivity energy drink Neutonic: ⁠https://neutonic.com/modernwisdom⁠ Episodes You Might Enjoy: #577 - David Goggins - This Is How To Master Your Life: ⁠https://tinyurl.com/43hv6y59⁠ #712 - Dr Jordan Peterson - How To Destroy Your Negative Beliefs: ⁠https://tinyurl.com/2rtz7avf⁠ #700 - Dr Andrew Huberman - The Secret Tools To Hack Your Brain: ⁠https://tinyurl.com/3ccn5vkp⁠ - Get In Touch: Instagram: ⁠https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx⁠ Twitter: ⁠https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx⁠ YouTube: ⁠https://www.youtube.com/modernwisdompodcast⁠ Email: ⁠https://chriswillx.com/contact⁠ - Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Most people think about cortisol as a bad thing that you want less of. Is that the right way to think about it? Not at all. Cortisol has been labeled a stress hormone, and it is involved in stress. We have a bout of stress. You have a spike of cortisol, so to speak. Cortisol, like other steroid hormones, is bound to things, and there's a free form of cortisol. That's the active one.

You don't want your free, unbound cortisol to be cross. chronically high, but we need to really think about why it was called a stress hormone in the first place. And the main reason is cortisol's job is to deploy energy sources for your brain and body to be able to react to things, think, and move. So cortisol naturally goes up a bit during stress and it comes back again, provided you don't ruminate on that stress too much, on the stressor, that is. The big eye-opener for me was when I actually went into the mom. modern textbooks on cortisol, not the ones that most medical students learned from, but what the endocrinologists, the specialists really learned from, and what the circadian and sleep biologists

now understand, which is the reason you wake up every single morning, even if you have an alarm clock, is because of something called the cortisol awakening response. So if we just step back from a typical healthy 24 hours, it looks something like this. A couple hours before sleep, your cortisol is low, your heart rate's low, you're calm, hopefully it's dim in the room, you go to sleep your cortisol is then at its absolute lowest levels for the entire 24 hours and by the way this is the same time when melatonin the sleepy hormone is at its highest levels after about four five hours of sleep and typically in that first four five hours of sleep is when you get your most deep sleep slow wave sleep non-rem sleep many people experience a transition into the sort of last

third of their sleep for the night and they tend to wake up around that time and often they use the restroom and go back to sleep. Why did they wake up? Well, it turns out that your cortisol is starting to rise about two-thirds of the way through the night. I mean, it's really creeping up throughout the entire night, but it's gone from this nadir to it's starting to climb. And then at some point, let's assume you get back to sleep

or you slept through the night, at some point, maybe 6 a.m., maybe 8 a.m., depends on who you are and what your schedule is. You wake up. Maybe your alarm clock goes off. You wake up. you wake up because the cortisol level reached a certain threshold is literally the cortisol awakening response it is healthy it is good and if i were to measure your cortisol at that moment

and compare it to what normal people might call like a stress episode in the afternoon you would say it's much higher than what stress induced okay so then your cortisol continues to rise and there's this unique opportunity in the first hour maybe 90 minutes but in the first hour after waking, where viewing bright light can increase your morning cortisol spike, as I'll refer to it, by up to 50 percent. Bright light can come from sunlight, ideally, or from a bright artificial light, like a 10,000 lux artificial light, or even a very bright indoor artificial LED or incandescent light. Okay, why is this important? Well, we could explore all the biology of cortisol, and we can summarize it by saying you have this hypothalamic pituitary

adrenal axis that sets off cortisol self-regulates negative feedback loop etc so that's the normal regulation of cortisol which basically can be summarized as it never allows you to have your cortisol too high for too long it feeds back on itself and shuts it down however in the first hour after waking your brain circadian clock has a unique privileged pathway that is separate from the hpa axis where it can amplify cortisol only in that first hour so you say why would that be this is nature's evolutionarily hardwired mechanism for giving you the opportunity to boost your cortisol so that you have energy to lean into the activities of your day. When I say energy, I'm not saying, you know, it's not like we happen to be in California at the moment, but not energy energy. I'm talking about

glucose mobilization. If you're on a low carbohydrate diet, you're going to mobilize other energy sources. Your brain and body wakes up because of cortisol. You have the opportunity to boost that wakefulness even further by viewing bright light. Yes, you could exercise. Yes, you could drink caffeine turns out caffeine if you're a chronic caffeine user such as me such as you doesn't actually increase cortisol that much you could jump in a 40 degree Fahrenheit cold plunge doesn't actually increase your cortisol all this nonsense going around the internet about you know women shouldn't do a cold plunge and if they do not as cold okay maybe but it's always attributed to increases in cortisol cold plunge reduces your cortisol levels you can look at the data the data show that goes down

adrenaline goes up dopamine goes up norapinephrine go up so cortisol makes you alert it makes you focus and here's the key thing spiking your cortisol in that first hour after waking is so so important because that negative feedback loop mechanism kicks in about three hours after you've been awake and that's why your cortisol then starts to drop late morning early afternoon later afternoon and in the afternoon if you have a bout of stress no problem you just have a little bit of cortisol bump, adrenaline bump, and it goes back down. If you don't spike your morning cortisol, what ends up happening is your cortisol system,

essentially, the HPA axis, is primed for stress events to give you big lasting increases in cortisol later, which make it hard to fall asleep, which make it hard to stay asleep, which are part of the reason why people have afternoon anxiety, all sorts of things. So you're actually supposed to feel a little stressed first thing in the morning. This is normal, this is healthy,

and it sets you up for being more calm in the afternoon. now none of this is tied to whether or not you wake up at 8 a.m. 6 a.m. 4 a.m. or 11 a.m. This is not about chronotype. This is simply about the first hour after waking, but after about 90 minutes post waking, that opportunity to spike your cortisol goes away. So if you can't view bright light in the form of sunlight, get it from artificial light. You would do well to compound that with hydration, which by the way, for reasons that still aren't entirely understood, probably has to do with some electrolyte balance, et cetera. First thing in the day will also first, first you your cortisol. If you can't get in exercise right away, even just some skipping rope, jumping

jacks, this kind of thing. Getting the body into a high cortisol state early sets you up for being in a low cortisol state in the afternoon and evening. And any cortisol that you might trigger through a stress event will quickly subside unless you, what's called flatten your cortisol curve by not spiking in the morning. And by the way, the curve that I'm describing high in the morning, lower into the afternoon, low, low, low as you get into the first hours of sleep, this is the healthy cortisol curve for men, women, kids, pregnant women. Post-menopausal women, it tends to flatten out a bit and they need to do additional things to get that spike earlier. So this is when I hear all this stuff about don't cold plunge, it increases, it doesn't increase

cortisol. And also this notion that we're supposed to avoid stress entirely, not true, you and I both generally agree on that, but how you time your stress is important. And the last point I'll make is that if you were to do, say, a very intense workout in the late afternoon evening. It's been demonstrated that will triple or quadruple your baseline cortisol levels for a few hours. Not a problem. You can take a hot shower afterwards, do some slow breathing and calm down, provided you didn't fill up with caffeine prior. You could probably fall asleep just fine. But because you spiked your cortisol late day, what you find is that the next day cortisol is lower, which is one of the, not the only reason, but one of the reasons why you're

a bit more sluggish the next morning. So, and this is why people's, if they exercise too late in the day, rhythm starts to shift. When we talk about your circadian rhythm shifting in response to light, it's the cortisol peak that's shifting or flattening, which in turn adjusts your melatonin peak and trough. But cortisol is the trigger. Cortisol, think of it like the, think about this morning cortisol spike as the first domino in establishing essentially all the rhythms that you're interested in if you want daytime mood focus alertness, nighttime sleep. And so these are things I've talked about for years and that we've talked about for years, but only recently, has it become clear exactly why cortisol is that first domino in the chain.

And we hear so often about dopamine, epinephrine, nor epinephrine, all of which are important, all downstream of cortisol. So chronically high cortisol, Cushing's disease, the things that give people moonface that cause memory deficits, all these sorts of things, that's when the cortisol curve is too flat for too long, meaning too high in the afternoon and evening. But there is, I won't say there's no upper limit to how high cortisol can be in the morning. There are people who have pathologically high levels of cortisol in the first hours of the day. Most people, even people with Cushings, have pathologically low cortisol early in the day,

pathologically high cortisol late in the day. They've inverted that. That's right. And getting this curve right is so critical. It predicts longevity. It predicts recovery from everything, from chemotherapy to pain relief. You know, it's one of the things that you seem to be doing all the right things, plus these sort of outrageous, outrageously.

ambitious health protocols as well. Although I will commend you, if you're going to clean anything, including your blood, I do suggest doing it in Austria, Switzerland, because those are very clean countries. Wonderful place to go. Well, they're very clean countries. Yeah. What about the relationship between cortisol and burnout? You know, you talked about sustained, chronically elevated cortisol, but I've also heard you talk about burnout is basically being wrongly timed cortisol over time. That's right. Stretched out. What have you come to learn about handling burnout. Somebody feels that sensor. I feel like I'm sort of close to that. What's going on? And how can they try to intervene in that? So there seem to be two general

forms of burnout. One is the, I'm exhausted in the morning and I just can't get into gear. And then it's like caffeine, caffeine, exhausted. And then late day, okay, finally, you know, I caught the wayfront. And then I'm having trouble sleeping and then the whole thing repeats. Wired but tired. Wired but tired. the other form of burnout is where people just it's like their cortisol is like a square way function it's up in the morning and all day long it's sort of how I would describe my graduate school years probably undergraduate graduate school years postdoc I think I hit a wall during my postdoc years so that was you know that would be you know 30 or 35 and then at some point you realize you just can't keep this going and I think most entrepreneurs feel that way at some point you're just like I can't do this I mean even the the David Goggins and the the cam haines is they they do sleep right they get sleep eventually so i think the main way to think about burnout and exhaustion is to ask oneself okay if i had total control when would i naturally wake up when would i naturally go to sleep like what would be my preferred times to do that and then whatever your wake-up time is to really treat that first three to six hours of your day as go time

and to do the things bright light hydration exercise caffeine etc that really push you into the day but then really essentially doing all the opposite things that you do in the morning in the last ideally four but most people won't do that last two hours of your day dim the lights caffeine forget it you should have halted that probably eight hours before sleep limit your hydration right unless you're dehydrated limit your hydration um you know long exhale breathing anything that can bring your cortisol levels down and bring your melatonin levels up which is why we we're so bullish about dimming the lights later in the day. And, you know, we were talking about the red lens glasses to block out short wavelength light, which by the way, a lot of people have said,

well, you know, the study is showing that screen light disrupts sleep, very variable between people. People have different levels of retinal sensitivity, so how much screen light will disrupt their sleep. But it's not just about sleep. There's a beautiful study published in Proceedings in the National Academy of Sciences that showed that people who sleep in a room with an overhead light of 100 locks, which is extremely dim, show abnormally elevated morning glucose levels. Makes perfect sense. Cortisol mobilizes glucose,

and this is through closed eyelids. Okay, so you have to get the light down to maybe one to three locks. And you say one to three locks, it's basically dark, dark, dark. A candle light is very low. A bright full moon where you say, oh, it's so bright out,

is actually only about one to five lux. So we think of these sources as very bright, but nature set us up to have bright mornings and dim dark nights. And some people will say, well, there's no light where I live. You know, listen, you don't need to see the sun as a delineated object. If you compare how bright it is, let's just say even in the dead of winter in the UK at 9 a.m., walking in a place with no artificial lighting outside, no street lamps,

versus midnight the night before in the same location. You'd say you can navigate in the one case without any artificial lighting, without what we call flashlight, you call a torch. but in any case, the idea is that there are a lot of photons coming through and you want all of that early in the day. And you just want to do the inverse in the last part of the day. So I think to avoid overwhelming people because people have so much to do and think about get the first hour of your day right. Get the last hour of your day right. And you'll greatly improve this morning cortisol peak, late day cortisol reduction, which is what you want. And you'll get your natural clearing out

of any melatonin that happens to be in your system because bright light quashes melatonin through a different pathway, but that also originates with the eyes, goes through the supercosmatic nucleus and a couple other relays to your pineal shuts down melatonin production. And then late in the day, you just make it dimmer, darker, darker, darker, and you bring up your melatonin, you bring down your cortisol. But if you think about what's happened with screens, that it's stimulating, I think late last night I made the mistake of, I've watched a extended 60 minutes interview. I actually fell asleep to it. Is it the Petrotia one? No, it's the Trump one. Okay. I was curious. I hadn't I heard an interview with him for a long time, and it was sort of combative, but it was an

interesting one, and I was curious to see how that would go, and I fell asleep in about the last 15 minutes, but I wouldn't recommend doing that. Normally it would be screens off in the last hour. I just, you know, I got a little loose with my protocols. Yeah, we've been, I've seen you talking about daylight savings, time changes and stuff like that. This has been nearly a decade now since Matthew Walker was first on Rogan. I think it was nearly almost 10 years ago. And I was still a club promoter at the time. And up until then, I just assumed that sleep was,

it's just like this thing that got in the way of me working. It was just this bullshit. One year 20 is that's kind of true. You're made of rubber and magic, dude. You know what I mean? Caffeine and big dreams and cellar tape and cable ties. You're just fucking like strung together with this stuff. Anyway, he came on and basically did the scare them straight equivalent.

Do you ever have that in school, scare them straight? No. So they bring a prison off. officer in and he tells you about how horrible life is in prison and all of the horror stories that what how old are you when you lay 12 13 yeah yeah yeah and he's saying you know they put boiling water into um a cup and mix loads of sugar in it and it's syrup and they throw it on people and then they have batteries and they put them in socks and I remember he hit this sock filled with batteries down on the table and it made me jump and I was like fuck like I really don't want to

go to they honestly worked for me my particular psychological makeup that thing absolutely I don't nothing else the sort of person that was probably going to go to jail anyway. But yeah, I learn sleep is, okay, really, really important. You've been talking about daylight savings. The more that I learn about it, the effects of sleep deprivation are just terrifying. It's just everything gets broken. Yeah, I mean, sleep is the ultimate reset. We could talk about some of the newer data that point to exactly why.

I will say just, you know, for people's peace of mind, If you don't spike your cortisol for a couple days in a row, you get one poor night's sleep for a couple days in a row. You're going to be fine. The human body and brain evolved under conditions that were extreme, right? New parents will tell you how difficult sleep can be. I mean, you can pull it off. The thing that we call chronic stress is frankly when that cortisol curve gets disrupted in any number of ways, but typically it's late day cortisol spikes that don't come back down afterwards for three, four, five days in a row. Your hippocampus, this memory center in the brain is chock a block full of cortisol receptors and cortisol unlike adrenaline can pass through the blood brain barrier all right so it has a number of docking sites that allow it to engage the memory system

you know what stress will engage your memory system but that over time will start to deteriorate these structures so if somebody hasn't been sleeping well you know I'm not just saying this to make them feel better you don't want to send them into a panic and all of these systems can be recovered you know when Matt went on In Rogan, I think it was an important, like truly important.

It was fucking, I'll say, it was seminal. Like, he has saved, that one episode has probably saved thousands of years, if not hundreds of thousands of years of combined human life. Yeah. Oh, I agree. I mean, I think that the challenge, and I think that Matt would say this, I'm sort of borrowing his words, is that he sufficiently scared everybody. There were fewer things to offer to do to promote good sleep at that time.

and there were more of a lot of like, here's what happens if you don't sleep. Yeah, the stress of trying to be perfect will kill you more quickly than your imperfections, that like, optimize or obsessor thing. And you want to give people a sense of real agency, right? Yeah, dimming the lights, if you're light sensitive in particular, and, you know, limiting caffeine. I mean, all the things that are sort of obvious to us now. The morning sunlight thing, I think most people don't tether to their sleep because it's not obvious how doing something in the first hour of your day to be more alert and spike cortisol creates

a situation, you know, 14 hours later where you are a better sleeper. So, you know, over time, I mean, Matt's started to adopt that. I mean, I think he also pointed out the detriments of alcohol and cannabis on sleep, which I, you know, which I echo. I think also, if you think just back even six years, seven years, we weren't aware of the number of over-the-counter compounds that can be helpful for sleep. You know, people are still thinking about drugs, prescription drugs for sleep, which, you know, have their place for certain people, but most people hadn't considered mag three and eight, theanine, chamomile. Now I would add to that, um, saffron, um, tart cherry, we know, we can increase. Apogenin. Apogenin and chamomile extract. Yeah, similar. Um, lemon bomb.

Lemon bomb, skull cap. You know, it sounds kind of crazy, right? It sounds like we're, we're behind the counter at some like, orthodox medicine shop, right? Eye of newts and a fucking wizard tail. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Right. I mean, I didn't come here to do an AGZ plug, but I basically, I've played around with a number of different non-supplement things for sleep over the years, because I'm an experimenter in and out of the lab.

And, I mean, I can tell you a wild story from high school where the girl sitting behind me, I remember her name, it was Aaron Kranard. Her mom had some tablets, some Chinese medicine tablets, and I took one, because I was having some issue of sleeping, and she gave me one. And I, the whole night, I was wide awake, hearing music blaring from behind my hands.

head. And I think I was in a pseudo-sleep state. I thought I was away. I was like, that's really scary. But I was like, wow, there are compounds that really work for sleep. And then, you know, there are things like the peptide pinealine I experimented with a bit. Not a lot of human studies at all. Some interesting rodent studies may regenerate the pineal sites in the pineal. It gives me like two hours a night of REM sleep. But I will say, having completely halted pineal and I did a short run with it, we'll say that the formulation that's in AGZ has me sleeping with double the amount of REM sleep and at least a third more slow wave deep sleep every night. And I can only drink about two thirds of that stuff before it's almost like too much, not because it's too much volume,

but because any more in my dreams are just too elaborate. And, you know, what's magic about it? I think it has a bunch of different things in it. So again, I didn't come here to plug AGZ, but I think that they really nailed it in the sense that in the last 10 years, the scientific community, the health and wellness community has really come to the conclusion that there are things that can nudge your sleep in the right direction. So just being told, like, if you don't sleep, you're going to die of dementia is scary. You want to give people agency. In other news, if you're feeling tired, you might not need more sleep, you might not need more caffeine, you might just be dehydrated. And proper hydration is not just about drinking enough water. It's

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sample pack of their favorite flavors with your first purchase by going to the link in the description below or heading to drink elemente.com slash modern wisdom. There's no code. I usually care about the box more than that. DrinkLMNT.com slash modern wisdom. What would you say to people who are struggling to fall asleep? Maybe they've done most of the things sort of through the day that you're supposed to. They're not taking caffeine too late at night. They're maybe having a hot shower. The room's cool.

It's quiet. It's dark. They've seen some morning sunlight. But calming down a racing mind at night is a challenge that I think a lot of hard charges will deal with. What are some strategies for slowing that down? Yeah, well, one thing that I think is really important is that if somebody's very health conscious and a hard charger, they're very likely eating pretty clean. And one of the challenges for many people, not all, to falling asleep is that their starchy carbohydrate intake is just not high enough. You know, if you go on a very low starch diet, like let's say you just go, you know, meat, fruit, vegetables, or you go pure keto, you'll have a lot more energy. Some people who follow that kind of reggae, can sleep well. Some people like myself find that unless I have some rice or oatmeal at some point during the day, especially if I'm doing resistance training, it's actually very hard to

fall and stay deeply asleep. And if I just add, you know, I guess you call it porridge, we call it oatmeal. But you have a small amount of starch in the form of whatever starch is fine for you. I eat starches. I realize this is heretical in the health and wellness space. But, you know, I have some rice or some homemade pasta or some sourdough bread or, you know, or oatmeal or something. If you're having trouble falling asleep, take a look at how much starch you're having. I don't recommend gorging yourself with starch late in the day, but having some starchy carbohydrates in your final meal, which probably comes, what, two, three hours before sleep or something like that, can certainly help a number of people fall and stay asleep.

I've heard that many times. I certainly know, I did meat and fruit as a part of trying to fix my health because brain inflammation was really high. I was getting a lot of brain fog, memory loss one of the things that I found that could counteract that a little bit was going very very low carb but that also impacted my sleep

and I felt wired but tired very adrenaline-y all the time like sort of always on as if I'd and my caffeine was limited as well because I was trying to limit stimulants I always felt on edge

sort of ambient anxiety thing and it impacted my sleep fragmentation was fucking horrendous and like well can I have a rice cake or like two rice cakes an hour before I go to bed to try and sort of kink me into this

a little bit, and experimented with a bunch of that, but yeah, it's, if you are carnivore, meat and fruit, keto, I wonder what the net effect is when you account for what's happening to sleep. And I'm sure that many people can

sleep well on low carb of different stripes. But I, for one, couldn't. And then I'm like, having to weigh this up. Like, how many, how much carbs can I have before brain inflammation makes me feel a little bit more sluggish and more tired? But I need to have some in order to make me, so that was a... Yeah, it becomes a little bit of a devil's dance. I mean, if we returned

to our discussion about cortisol from earlier, cortisol's job is to deploy energy into the body and for the brain under conditions of stress or just getting up in the morning. I mean, the transition from sleep to awake is a massive state shift. It's a normal, healthy one, but it's a massive state shift in terms of mobilization requirements and thought requirements and just the ability to linearize your thought, which is nerd speak, for the ability to think, not dream, right, or be unconscious, essentially. So when you have low circulating glucose or energy stores, cortisol's job is to mobilize glucose. So when you're on a low carbohydrate diet, your baseline cortisol is a little bit higher. This actually has been examined. Okay. So here's the deal. If you're on a low carbohydrate diet

for a period of time. I think in this case, it was three weeks or more. Your cortisol curve, that high in the morning, low in the afternoon and evening, kind of normalizes a bit. It's still a little bit higher at every point than it normally would be. But if you suddenly switch from eating carbohydrates, when I say carbohydrates, I mean starchy carbohydrates, okay? Well, let's leave aside sugar and fructose and et cetera, which of course is a form of sugar.

But if you shift from a sort of standard macronutrient distribution of, you know, 40, 30, 30, or whatever it is, where you're eating starches to a low carbohydrate diet, your cortisol levels go up significantly. This has been explored. Over time, they normalized. So I think the important thing for people to remember is when we talk about comfort foods, people have taken that phrase to mean junk foods, pizza, ice cream, uh-uh, those aren't the comfort foods that were originally described as comfort foods.

The comfort foods that were coined comfort foods are starchy, warm foods, which guess what? suppress cortisol because when those foods are available your your brain and essentially your adrenals know that you don't have to mobilize from stored sources it's already circulating so it makes perfect sense so i mean this is just one kind of uh you ask for like what people could do yeah i say take a look at your nutrition stop are you exercising too late in the day can you move that to the morning can you you never want to tell me reduce the intensity because frankly you know as dorian yates has been saying so beautifully late uh lately like reps and reserve our results in reserve. You know, we could talk about that. But, you know, I think most people are probably not

pushing hard enough, but some people are just pushing way too hard in the gym, way too late, and then their cortisol levels are elevated. It makes perfect sense why you couldn't sleep. So I would say, look at your diet, make sure you're getting enough starches at some point throughout the day, maybe even taking in a few starches in the couple of hours before sleep, and just see how your sleep does. There's some interesting data, although people should talk to their doctor about taking very low dose, one milligram lithium, I think it's the oritate form. in order to encourage the ability to fall asleep and get more deep sleep.

But of course, we're talking about lithium here, so people need definitely talk to your doctor. There's some other things, too. You know, look at your lighting environment, of course. But I think for a lot of people, the major issue with falling asleep is that they can't forget about the position of their body. And this is where the data becomes super interesting.

There are some technologies that are being spun up right now, some of which I've had the opportunity to dabble with. And I have no financial relationship, too, but I sure wish I did because it is so cool. Imagine a sleep mask that could put you to sleep. Okay. Okay. How would it do that? Well, it turns out that eye movements are not just present during rapid eye movement sleep,

but one of the prerequisites for falling asleep is that you forget about your body position. You're not like, oh, this is uncomfortable. That doesn't belong there. You shut down what's called proprioception, your awareness of body position. So there's actually some interesting data. And here I'm clinging from a few places. I want to be fair because what I'm about. to say sounds kind of kooky, but this works for many, many people who are having trouble falling

asleep or getting back to sleep. You can try this tonight. I do this often. It works for me. You keep your eyes closed or you close your eyes. You move your eyes relatively slowly to one side, then the other side, one side, then the other side. Then you move your eyes in a counterclockwise circle and then a clockwise circle, then up, then. and down and then you sort of do a kind of faux cross-eyed attempt you sort of look down towards the bridge of your nose and you exhale which is going to slow your heart rate down now what is all this nonsense about eye movements did i just do this as a joke to to see if you would do it the truth is if you do this when you're trying to fall asleep your vestibular system which is essentially in

working in concert with your eyes for reasons we could talk about but your cerebellum and your vestibular system are essentially transitioning from where you need to be very aware of your body position and make adjustments all the time to one in which you're forgetting about body position and we know and there are great data showing that a very slow rocking of a bed will help put you to sleep when you rock back and forth your body doesn't have like a little metronome in it and says I'm rocking it's your eye movements that compensate in the opposite direction which tell your cerebellum hey we're rocking this is why if you're on a boat and this and the horizon's going like this, you get seasick. You get seasick because you can't orient to kind of dead zero for

you know, pitch, yaw and roll. And so anyway, I don't want to get too technical here, but if you have trouble sleeping, try what I just described a few times. Many people find that it helps them fall asleep because you stop thinking about your body position. And of course, bed coolness, room coolness all can help. But what I just described can be very, very helpful for a number of people whose minds are racing because if their mind is racing, you also need to give people something to do with their mind. You can't just say, like, don't think about it

or stop thinking or just go to sleep. That doesn't work. You can say just wake up, but you can't say just go to sleep. There's a weird asymmetry built into our autonomic nervous system that way. It's so funny. Two things that I found

because wide but tired has been kind of the fucking summary to the last 18 months for me fighting with the health stuff. One from Matt, which is a mind walk. Is you taking me through this? Yeah, you go through a walk that you're very familiar with.

Yeah. Has that been helpful? Wonderful. Oh, great. One of the things that I found by doing that, for the people that didn't listen to the episode, they can go back and listen to the one I did with Matt a few months ago. Brilliant. Basically, you can imagine that you're going for a walk somewhere that you know unbelievably well

and try and do it with as much resolution as possible. So I go to the cupboard. I open the cupboard doors. I've got my shoes in there. I take them out to my right hand that reaches. in and put them on the floor. I get the shoe horn. Everyone needs a shoehorn. Left foot in. Right foot in. I get the key. I know the sound of the key. I close the doors. I turn around. I go toward the door. I put it in. I turn it. Like that's the feeling of the door. I get outside. I feel a

brush. Like all of that stuff. At least what I found is what I'm falling asleep, the sort of I'm on a journey. This is an adventure thing is like reading fiction. And the I have problems to solve. This is executive function. It's like reading nonfiction. And for me, The former helps me fall asleep way more than the latter. So that's the first thing. The second thing is resonance breathing. I think this, if I was to pick, if I was to flick a little bit of money onto the roulette table of the next five years of health,

I think HIV resonance breathing is going to be fucking huge. And there's a couple of products, one in particular that I'm super, super excited about. It's this cool lamp. So imagine a bedside lamp. And on the top of it is a little divot. like a little pocket and that's got a stone in it you take the stone out the stone's got an fda hrv sensor you just hold the stone in your hand and you can either turn the light of the lamp on or off and sounds and all the rest of the stuff but it does three six nine 12 minute sessions

with like a super high fidelity sensor and it means if you're struggling to fall asleep on a night time you can just sort of grab it put it in your hand do the breathing based on like a tactile um vibration coming from the stone too so it can all be silent so if your partners in the bed next you can do that and it knows when you hit resonance as well when you get into that maximum vagal tone and then you just pop it back on the top and the top of it is an induction charger for the stone i was like this is the fucking sickest who makes this it's a company called ohm ohm it's currently currently in dark mode i think oom dot health not anymore uh well yeah not anymore you just told the world that's true i don't even know if you can buy i don't think you can buy them um so but yeah j wiles

who's my sleep coach, from absolute rest, he's Andy Galpin's guy. Jay's a part of it, and I think I'm the first person outside of the company to have got one. And I was like, this fucking rules, because HIV resonance breathing is great and makes you feel really good. But if you're going to use elite HRV and you've got to put the like strap thing around your arm or your wrist, and then you've got to press it, and you've got to connect the Bluetooth, and it's got to be up to it. And you've got your phone in front of you and all the right. There's no just stand alone pick it up and go of this. And the fact that it's a lamp, it looks really beautiful.

fall, all the rest of the shit. Anyway, I've been using that. So between those two, the mind walk thing for me was very, very powerful. But some days you need a more like physiological intervention and the resonance breathing. Those two things for me, I think, if I'm struggling to fall asleep on a night time. But the eye movement stuff, I think has got, has got a lot of legs. So stack all of those together. I'm going to be cross-eyed, imagining that I'm going for a walk, holding a stone Not excessively cross-eyed. It's just more like you sort of look. It's like you're sort of looking down and, you know, there are these nuclei in the brainstem

that literally control levels of wakefulness. When you look up, it's essentially activating the arm of your autonomic nervous system, which makes you more alert. This is wild. And eyelids open. It's really interesting. And when you look down and bring your eyelids down, you're actually peddling on the circuits that promote sleepiness or at least that are more parasympathetic.

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in one scoop. It's here. Go to drinkagy1.com slash modern wisdom for stuff. Thank you. Talk to me about this raised head for glymphatic clearance thing because I've, if anyone's got an eight sleep with the... mattress raising functionality. One of the things it does for sleep is it actually raises your head a little bit. Is that related to what we're talking about here? You want head above feet? Yeah, I think they designed that for snoring, but it has other benefits. So without doing an

entire lecture on the lymphatic system, because we did a solo on that recently in my podcast, I mean, I'll just say the lymphatic system is amazing. It's amazing. And I liken it to the microbiome where 10 years ago, 15 years ago, if you talked about the microbiome, people were like, that's just crazy, like fermented low sugar foods. Like, this is like health food, lunacy. Now, I mean, they're probably close to a, you know,

maybe 500 million or a billion dollars even in federal grants, certainly in the U.S. and around the world, looking at the microbiome, it's important for everything, mental health, physical health. We just know this, right? The gut is so important. The lymphatic system, I think, is going to follow a similar trajectory.

And all the stuff that we hear about rebounding, you know, bouncing on a trampoline or skipping road, and all of that stuff turns out to be absolutely true. Or lymphatic massage, which is essentially a way of clearing. I love lymphatic massage. You know, it's interesting because lymphatic massage, for those that are accustomed to deep tissue massage, it feels like nothing. It feels like nothing, but the lymphatic vessels run so superficially that if you press on them too hard, you actually you cinch them off. It feels like you're being stroked by somebody. Yeah, so I think they talk about

a light brushing and then that, you know, maybe a little bit more motion. There are deeper lymphatic vessels that can take more pressure, but people who are trained to do this, do it right? And there's some tutorials online. There's a great account. I don't know the guy, but he was referred to me by Kelly Starrett tells me the stop chasing pain guy. He has this big six. I don't want to describe them here because I'll get them wrong, but he has a number of videos on Instagram and YouTube. The big six describes ways that you can encourage lymphatic massage. I always thought that the tapping here was kind of silly. It's actually because the lymphatic ducts drain back into the essentially dump all the lymph that's been surveilled by your immune system, et cetera,

back into the vascular system just below your clavicles. And as another point, then we'll get to glimphatic clearance. I gave a shout out to someone I've never met, don't have any association with, you know, business-wise or anything. This Anastasia beauty fascia is this woman,

I think of Middle Eastern, excuse me, is this woman of Eastern European, it's certainly not Middle Eastern appearing, of Eastern European origin, talking about non-surgical, non-Botox interventions for facial augmentation, you know, for, you know, higher cheekbones and clearing away puffiness underneath the eyes for men and for women, but mostly what you see there are women. But what you find is that the before and afters that these people list off and they

insist that I think they take an oath or something that they're not doing any injectables or surgeries are striking. And it's lymphatic drainage from the face and from the scalp and from around the jaw. And you go, this is, I mean, it is unbelievable. Okay. So in any case, the glimphatic system is. Is glymphatic lymphatic? Is it the same thing? So they're analogous. So for many, many years, it was thought that there was no lymphatic system in the brain. It was thought that it was actually for many years, we thought that the brain was immune privilege. Turns out that's not true. You have all sorts of immune genes and proteins in the brain. But it turns out, and this was discovered some years ago, 2012, it was actually discovered prior, but as science goes, it was kind

suppressed and then it was finally discovered that the during sleep in particular deep sleep the story goes the spaces around the vascular of the brain get bigger okay you have these little cell types in the brain called astrocytes they're among the different types of glia and they have these little n feet and they literally push the brain tissue out and away from the arteries and vessels and capillaries allowing more cerebral spinal fluid which is circulating your brain all day long and collecting the waste from your cells and mind you there's a lot of waste from your brain cells because your brain is the most metabolically active organ and then that needs to get washed out and it actually goes out near the surface of your brain underneath what's called the

meninges and then it flows down and then drains into the vascular system if people can remember nothing else about lymphatic drains remember this muscular movement clears lymph in the body okay so you need to walk low level muscular contraction it you know essentially moves the lymph up because it's fighting gravity. These are one-way valves. It brings it in from your limbs and it essentially dumps it back eventually into the blood supply. Inactivity of the body is what drives glymphatic clearance in the brain. Now, and so it's when you're essentially immobilized during sleep that you get the maximum amount of glymphatic clearance. Sleeping on your side, right or left side doesn't seem to matter. With the head slightly tilted does

seem to be the preferable position. So all you back sleepers like me, you know, Some people... You're a back sleeper? I have been a back sleeper. With that neck? Huh? With that neck? Unless I'm spooning.

I'm a black sleeper. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Back sleeper. Okay, right. Yeah, I'm a back sleeper. So, um, but I've been working on sleeping on my side. And I heard actually, maybe Andy Galbens involved in some studies where subjects wear a fanny pack

so that they can't sleep on their back. They have to sleep on their side. He sent me from absolutely rest this huge fuck-off roll thing, which looks like soft furnishing that's probably what it is. Yeah. Well, I mean, this was, it's a big role that goes down the middle of your back. So there's no way that you can be on your back at all. Okay. So that's much more. Calling it a fanny pack or a bum bag is a wild disservice to how like colossal this thing is. It's a. You're just going to have to hire somebody to spoon you, Chris. It just means that you'll have to give in to be a big spoon. I mean, it's interesting that you mentioned that you sleep well on your side. You're on Huberman. Sleep, sleep doll. I like sleeping on my side, and it does feel good to hold somebody. I suppose if you're a back sleeper, you know, I do use the nasal strips to open up my breathing more. Have you tried intake? What do you use?

I just, I order some nose strips that online. Let me, allow me to fucking fix your nose strip problem. Everyone has a nose strip problem if they're not using it. So these guys, they've got patents on it. Instead of it being a flexible, disposable thing, this is a hard three, three, printed piece of plastic that's got magnets attached on both sides and then you put two magnet patches on the skin of your nose and then you but no magnets up my nose no it's all on the outside so two patches on the outside okay and then you snap this non-disposable thing on and it's i'm not kidding it must be

three times four times five times stronger great than the normal ones and that's like great yeah because i have pretty good um respiration through my nose but years ago i stupid accident actually in a lab and i cracked a sinus, stood up, hit a freezer door, and it was a, there's a whole story there. Sometimes when you talk about over, not beers, since neither of us drank. Do you drink? Intimately. When did I have, I had beers recently? When did I have beers? After the show. Thank you. I had beers after the show. No shame in that. I haven't had alcohol in a long time, but, um, but we could talk about some of the, you know, uh, injury stories are always fun offline. But yeah, I think that for glymphatic clearance, the data are very clear

that you want to, if you can sleep on your side, you're still going to get lymphatic clearance if you sleep on your back, have your head slightly elevated, not too much, but keep in mind that your body is fighting, the lymphatic clearance in your legs is fighting gravity. So in theory, you want to be, if you want to be a little bit bow, but not too much, right? Now, what we do know is that if you sleep in a chair, these studies have been done in various sleep labs, If you sleep in a chair, like on a flight or something like that, you would think, well, you must get a lot more glymphatic clearance. And you probably do, but you probably get a lot more lack of lymphatic drainage from the body.

So there's some really nice pictures in these studies. Every mammal, it seems, puts its head down to sleep. I think giraffes actually just kind of like drop their forehead onto the ground. Okay. But there are no animals that, and someone will probably tell me I'm wrong here. and I'd love to see the examples because I love animals. But the argument that's been made in these papers

is that every mammal puts its head down to sleep. And if you think about, take a picture of yourself sometime before sleep and after sleep. Or worse, take a picture of yourself after one really terrible night's sleep. Just look at your face. A couple of things become clear.

You'll look bloated. The bags under people's eyes, that's build up of lymph. Okay, it's a couple hours late. That's what that is. That's what that is. It's buildup of lymph, which is why this anesthesia beauty fascia thing

is about learning to kind of increase the portals for lymphatic drainage. And it has a lot to do with the fascia because they run so closely together. The vessels, of course, at different depths relative to the fascia. So that's a lot of what lymphatic drainage for aesthetics is. But look at yourself after sleep.

Your brain fog, the brain fog you feel after lack of sleep, the buildup of crap is within the cerebral spinal fluid. It's all the ammonia, the carbon dioxide, all the, some protein fragments that have built up during the day. And the more active you are with your brain, the more they build up and the more they need to be cleared out at night. So, and then what's equally impressive, if you ask me, is take a look at that picture of yourself sleep deprived. You get a good night, sleep the next night. Take a picture of yourself the next morning. You look like a completely different person, including the brightness of the eyes. So it turns out around the iris of your eye, that black dot

in the middle and around it. You can actually see when people haven't slept well. There's actually a change in color of the eyes that has to do with the accumulation of lymph in the anterior chamber of the eye. And the posterior chamber of the eye, which is where the light sensing tissue is, the retina, actually shares the same glymphatic clearance system

as your brain. And by the way, everything I'm talking about for brain for glymphatic clearance is true for spinal cord too. So for all this stuff about motor learning and people are so concerned about their spinal cord, all the athletes are thinking, You need a brain, but you mostly need a spinal cord. Just kidding, but you need both.

But the idea here is that when people look tired, the eyes look tired. It's not just in the eyelids being hooded. The eyes look glassy. They don't look quite right. And then they sleep well and their life comes back in the eyes. It's because they cleared the lymph from their eyes. Who knew that the ultimate looks maxing solution was to just get a better night sleep and raise your head a head a bit? Right.

Well, I think it's a pillow enough. Yeah. Yeah, you don't have to. It's not too much. What you don't want is your head tilted back. And that's also, of course, a risk for apnea, right? I mean, this is, you know, why all the bodybuilders and big guys drop dead in their sleep, you know, often is because they just basically asphyxating themselves. So I do think fixing snoring is important.

The nose strip sound great, these nose magnets. I'm about to try a mandibular device, you know, like a special mouth guard to try and adjust. Do you have apnea? A little, yeah, it's REM induced apnea. So it only happens in Rome. You and I should take a trip up to Stan. effort to the other. Seriously, there's a couple up there. Paul Ehrlich, who wrote the population bomb many years ago. I think he would say it probably didn't pan out. And Sandra Khan, who's,

I think, is in craniofacial surgery or orthodontics or something. They were the ones that wrote the book, Jaws, not the Jaws with forward by Robert Sapolsky, Jared Diamond, I think, wrote the introduction. These are heavy hit or serious science academics. And they were the ones that talked about the, you know, the transition to soft foods, to packet-based foods, to baby food has created this kind of massive explosion in the industry for orthodontics. And was Nestor's work downstream from them? James Nestor's. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Nestor's kind of the, his book was kind of the modern iteration of what they were saying. But, you know, they are, I think they're coming out with another book that's really pushing this thing that the nasal

breathing is real. The ability to, I can't quite do this, but can you close your mouth and put your entire tongue on the roof of your mouth without having to kind of curl it back behind your teeth? Is there space for your tongue on the roof? A little, my palate, I can do with a bit of expansion because I had six teeth removed as a kid, like four from the top and two from the bottom, I think. So, I mean, Max, who isn't here, my videographer, had really, he's going through two or three really serious dental procedures. And with one of them, he was trying to do it through Invisaline and it was a slow palate expander. Invisaline do a pallet expander now. He's like, dude, this is going to take like fucking three years for me to do this, but they can do it a little

bit more aggressively. Sounds like he's a kind of extreme case. Because Conn and Erlich have this association with, you know, the mewing guy, you know. Is that true? Is that real? Well, the mewing thing is, is it plays into this notion of getting your nasal breathing, right? It's like, you know, close your, you know, like close your mouth, put your tongue on the roof of your mouth, and then can you swallow while, you know, pushing the, I'm describing this, you know, coarsely, you know, that the problem is, you know, anytime you get a figure like dad, and I've never met him, I think his name is Mike Mew, right? Mew, anytime you get somebody who's kind of extreme off of the normal thrust of a one branch of medicine, it's going to, that person is either going to be ostracized or they're going to have to go through some serious. gymnastics to get acceptance. Look, my colleague, David Spiegel, who's our vice chair of psychiatry at Stanford, right? Very serious scientist clinician. His father and him developed hypnosis as a tool for pain management, smoking cessation, anxiety, even people going through chemotherapy. And the data

are beautiful. It's a 25% of people that do hypnosis for smoking cessation, have it in one session for life. It's amazing. I mean, it's a brain plastic. But had it not been David, right, who's very thoughtful in how he approaches these discussions, how he frames it with science, how he explains what's going on. And just his like, and I'm not saying Mew isn't this way. I don't know him, haven't met him, although I've read some of his work. You know, but David has a special gift of the ability to frame what for many people will be like, hypnosis, are you kidding me, as a brain plasticity accelerator. Gentle convincing demeanor in David. Yes, and also broad training in all of psychiatry and in acceptance of other branches of medicine. He's not saying this is the way and this is the only way and there's this problem with my field.

I'm here to fix the field. No, he's saying here's one tool in the toolkit and there are other tools in the toolkit. He's also, and again, I'm not saying anything about Mew in tacitly here, David Spiegel is exceedingly smart. Like, he's on a whole other level of intellect and yet he doesn't talk over anybody. He's extremely kind.

So, you know, bedside manner and how you bring your stuff forward is very cheap. Especially if you're going to be a revolutionary or somebody that's at the sort of cutting edge, cutting frontier of this stuff. No, I agree. I've been thinking about this a lot this year. What do we need to know about the neuroscience of making habit setting more easy? I imagine that there must be some really interesting. Oh, man. I just had James Clear on the podcast, and it's so interesting when you sit down with somebody who's like the habits guy, and you compare it against the neuroscience. And so there's two ways into this. You know, and James has done a magnificent job of explaining things that people can do to improve their habits and reduce bad habits. The reason I'm so bullish about people understanding a little bit of mechanism behind the checklist of things to do is,

is that I do think that when people understand mechanism, it gives them flexibility over the so-called protocols. And I think it also allows them to customize those things for themselves. Let's face it, if you want to go online now and just say, what are the top 10 things I can do to improve my sleep? And you get a list, you can put those on your refrigerator, put them next to your bed. Why doesn't everyone just do that?

Yep. It's because the way that people go about learning information strongly drives whether or not they apply that information. Yep. Okay. So in fairness to James and the incredible work that he's done, I'm going to just kind of look at this a little bit through the lens of neuroscience. And I'm really glad that we're talking about this because one of the things that he said that I think is so, so true is that the thoughts and by extension the emotions, but really the thoughts that you have right now, your ability to focus right now is strongly driven by the inputs you received in the preceding hours and even days. So one of the things that's really interesting about focus and attention, and a lot of habits have to do with it. I don't want to procrastinate.

I want to do this. We can talk about exercise, but let's talk about cognitive stuff. It's very, very clear that if you have a hard time getting into a bout of work or even staying focused, there's a very good chance, I believe, that your breaks between work and what you were doing before work was too stimulating. I'm a big advocate for boring breaks and I'm a big advocate for silence before and after bouts of work for a couple of reasons. Let's think about it on the back end. Let's say you're trying to learn something or read a book or just do something that you're not reflexively doing.

You want to create this habit. It's very clear that neuroplasticity, yes, requires alertness, requires focus. You need sleep layer that night. I've been beating that drum for a number of years. It's also clear that reflection on what you were doing. at some later time, just kind of like post-learning reflection, walk into your car, sitting on the plane for a second, thinking about a podcast you did earlier or something you heard or a discussion strongly reinforces the memories and the ability to work with the memories of new

information. And this is something that we've given up largely because of our smartphones. You're constantly bringing in new sensory information. All the data, I did an episode on how to best study and learn. I went to the data to find out, because I I have my methods, but that doesn't mean they're the best methods. Reading, rereading, note-taking, highlighting, it's all fine, but it turns out the biggest lever is to self-test at some point away from the material. So testing is not just something for evaluation of others. It's a way that we should think, you know, yeah, how much can I remember about that conversation?

What was tricky? Okay, I don't remember that piece. I'm going to go back and look it up. All learning is, and this will sound like a giant, duh, but all learning is anti-forgetting. How do we know this? Because if you have people read a passage one, two, three, four, five times versus one time and they self-test, one time in self-testing significantly better. Have you ever had Peter C. Brown on the show? No.

Author of Make It Stick. No, but I like the title. You need to bring Peter on. Peter was episode, I would guess, like 30 on Modern Wisdom. You'll be a thousand and 30. And the best synopsis that I got from him, learning how to learn, was, learning is repeated recall not repeated exposure

yes beautiful right fucking money exactly and that's that's the exactly and this is the ebbing house forgetting curve that's a guys like him guys like james clear that they have a real when I say unconscious genius

I mean clearly they put thought into and structure into what they teach but the neuroscience supports everything you just said which is what he just said and reflecting on what you were trying to do or learn or solve even if you don't remember, even if you're still puzzled by it is so vitally important

to the anti-forgetting process. Okay. Now, in terms of actually being able to focus, actually being able to do work, it's so clear that thoughts, and this is the beautiful statements and work of a woman named Jenny Grow, who's spelled G-R-O-H at Duke University, who's a neuroscientist been saying sensory integration for a long time. You know, I've long, I've long, thought about and I think we now understand as a field what sensations are. So sensations are the physical stimuli in the environment photons of light, mechanical pressure, odorant, volatile odorants in the environment that lead to, you know, sight, touch, smell, et cetera. How that gets converted into chemical and electrical signals in the brain, we understand as a field. We understand

sensation. We understand perception. Perception is which of those sensations you happen to be paying attention to okay we understand emotions now more as a subset of something that we think of more broadly as states that are set by your autonomic nervous system how alert you are how not alert you are and then emotions are kind of layered on top of that right Lisa Feldman Barrett has beautiful descriptions of these and so on and there's some debate about what emotions really are but we we know what they are neurobiologically and psychologically and behaviors we know what they are right it's a behavior and then there's the don't go behaviors the suppression of behavior and then there are memories right but for the longest time it's been unclear what are

thoughts like what are they just like spontaneous geysering up of of memories or like what's going on there and jenny grow i think has the absolute best description of these if and this is based on experimentation if we seed some idea so let's say i say to you let's not talk about cats because i'm a dog person but i say okay okay chris and this isn't a trick question i promise because it's always weird when people start doing this. I'm not Oz Perlman or something. I'm not going to, like, tell you your pin code. Think about a dog, okay.

What kind of dog is it? Golden Retriever. Golden Retriever, okay. So as you think about the Golden Retriever, like what other things come to mind about the Golden Retriever? It's got a little neckerchief on. Okay.

Red neckerchief. Great. Red neckerchief. Like, what else about Golden Retriever? Fluffy. Fluffy, O'Say. So there's a tactile thing. Okay. Anything else about going retrievers? This is very specific to you. Bouncing up and down, rolling on its back. Smells a little bit, but I like it.

Great. Okay. So there's a, I like it. You like this. Okay. So Jenny grows and others data point to the fact that thoughts basically start with some seed element, some noun, some pronoun, some thing, some event. And then what the brain does is essentially starts to call on more and more sensations and starts layering those in. More and more. prior sensory events. It's red handkerchief. Okay, it's fluffy. There's a tactile and that thoughts really are the layering on of more and more sensory memories and thoughts are really a layering of the senses in in abstract thought space. Now, this is not meant to, you know, make something from nothing, but it's so important that we understand this because you think, what is the ability to think? Well, the ability to think is constrained by the number of different senses I'm trying to place on a bunch of different things. And so that's how we navigate through environments, which is what Jenny Groh's main work is about how you find yourself in space. I can't look at everything in this

garage. I have to focus on certain things, find the Phillipshead screwdriver, go over there, and you're discarding all the other information. Now, when you think about sitting down to do work or to learn something, prepare a podcast, it is so important that you limit the number of sensory inputs coming in not just during that event but before because the sensory stimulus that kind of sets off this cascade of layering in more and more sensory memories and understanding is begun before you sit down to read your book this is why you read a portion of a book and then like oh wait i wasn't even paying attention you your brain is still working with the sensory inputs from before it's not thinking about them consciously so this is vitally important if you go back and you look at the

history of attention and thinking. And I have. You can find these incredible pictures that they would give kids who had trouble, probably had ADHD, or just kind of rambunctious boys in most cases. And they literally gave them helmets with two eye holes so they couldn't look at anything else. Like blinkers. Hear anyone else. Right. Used to be, you know, kid with the hoodie on and the cap and you'd write. Now, what have we done? The challenge is that we've brought an infinite number of sensory experiences into the thing that you're looking at. Oh, wow. So we've brought the, we brought all the sensory inputs through the device that you're holding. So the narrowing of your perspective hasn't helped you to narrow the distractions? That's right. Cognitive space is still infinite,

even though the spatial limitation of where you're placing your attention is very restricted. So the fact that you have so many competing thoughts has everything to do with that. And it also has everything to do with what you were doing in the 10 or 15 minutes before you sat down to try to work. Now, in China, they're doing some very interesting experiments of having kids stare literally at a focal point on the wall for a number of minutes before beginning their work. Sounds a little extreme, a little military, but one thing that I've been doing before I prepare to do any writing, any podcasting, any work is I try and make myself as bored as possible. I try and remove as much sensory input as possible. I might think about my breathing because it's hard to not think about

anything, but I really have started to limit the amount of sensory information coming into my space. I have an entire floor of where I live now. I live in and have an odd structure now, but the entire bottom floor is a no-phone zone. Once or twice I brought my phone down there, but it's a no phone zone. Going down the stairs, there are no phones in there. I'm trying to figure out how I can have no internet there. I have this little tent sauna that I use now with incandestined lights that I love, because I couldn't use my barrel sauna where I was at. It's a, I think it's sauna space makes these incredible. I like them because they get hot right away and it's got the red light. I go in there, it's in a, it's grounded and there's no Wi-Fi in there. The phone goes dead the moment you go in there.

You're in a mini Faraday cake. Yeah, and I don't like bringing the phone into the song. Are you in your same place that I went to, or is this a new one now? No, so I actually converted a art gallery into a living space. I've always wanted to do this. So now I have my, no, it's not the same space. I have my gym. I've got an upstairs loft where I live, and then the downstairs is a workspace.

I have an octopus now. I have a tank with an octopus in it, although it's a bit shy, so I'm probably going to be becoming increasingly esoteric. Anyway, and I have my discus fish and my gym and my, I've been doing all the illustrations for my books. I spent a lot of time drawing down in the basement. I mean, I've always wanted to do this at some point. I was like, yeah, you have to live in an art gallery at some point if you're able.

You know, and, okay, so that's my unique kind of weird space, but it doesn't matter if you're in an empty box. If you are not good at clearing the slate before you try and focus, you're going to have a very hard time for understandable reasons. In fact, I'm amazed that anyone can think at all. I'm amazed that anyone can focus at all. I don't believe everyone has ADHD. I think we've just not understood what thoughts are built up from. And once you understand, you go, oh, yeah, it makes perfect sense. Am I supposed to walk around with my eyes closed and not take in any sensory input?

No. But am I supposed to take in an infinite number of novel items through this device? In fact, Mike Easter, the author of The Comfort Crisis, told me something super scary when he came on the podcast. He said that the person who developed these algorithms. the people, excuse me, who developed the algorithms for social media, borrowed heavily from the casinos. And I didn't realize that some years ago, slot machines were like a small fraction of the total casino income, maybe like 10, 20 percent. Now it's 80 percent. And it was one guy who

watched his kid playing video games who realized that the kids would play video games for hours and hours and hours and what they were playing for was novelty. And so they switched the slot machines in casinos on his suggestion to, instead of just spooling numbers and fruit or whatever, whatever it was, because they're now electronic, you can get a near infinite number of combinations of novel items and people will play while losing for novelty and think they're winning. The brain is tricked into thinking that it's winning. And so at some level, like, I love social media, teach on social media. I partake in it as a consumer and a creator there, but I think we need to really scruff ourselves and go, okay, I need to read this book. I need to write this chapter. I need to do

this drawing and you'll notice once you drop into that trench the brain has these attractor states it's like a ball bearing on a flat surface as you get more into a thought trench or activity trench it's like that ball bearing drops into what's essentially a deep valley and it's actually hard to leave you'll notice you're walking out and unless you pick up your phone you'll still be thinking about that and this is how the brain works the brain is not working in step functions the brain you're none of us are supposed to do the same thing all day long and none of us are supposed to to be able to think and focus easily. You just have to ride that sort of layering on of thoughts

going from board to sensory input to deeper and deeper and then work for about so of, you know, 90 minutes or a couple of hours and then give yourself a little bit of time, pause, reflect. And it doesn't mean you can't have a conversation, but people are like texting in between. It's unbelievable what we've done to hamstring ourselves against being able to think. The good news is, as Goggins would say,

nowadays it's very easy to be spectacularly good, in pretty much any field. You just have to do what no one else is doing. Now, he's an extreme case, and I have immense admiration for David. I mean, he's just so David, you know, but if you want to be the best in your class at anything, best in class at pretty much anything, it's to become so much easier now. You just have to not constantly be projecting things out to the world or paying attention to what other people are doing.

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Dude, I get it. Like the rampant fragility that seems to be destroying your classroom or your country or the world with constant distraction and people not being able to focus or deal with a little bit of discomfort or resilience is not great. But from a selfish perspective, that widespread fragility is your competitive advantage. and if you're one of the people, you're not going to be able to change the world, certainly not before you've changed yourself. And that means that the first step is, huh, this is an opportunity for me. I can step into it.

So you mentioned that you sort of touched on some of the bad habits that distract people. I've always been interested in this for a neuroscientific perspective. Is it truly possible to deprogram bad habits? Or once those neural pathways are down, is that locked in for life? Are you just creating deeper fishes somewhere else in order to replace those ones? How do you think about getting rid of bad habits, the process of overcoming those? Yeah, I think, you know, if we look at the data on neuroplasticity, it's much easier to reactivate a pathway that was laid down early in life, even if it's been suppressed. There's a beautiful data of a guy named Eric Nudson, who was actually my next door neighbor in my lab before he retired.

Stanford's showing that, you know, once learning takes place, those maps are forever there. you can unveil those maps again later. They kind of like never forget to ride a bike kind of thing. But when you're talking about bad habits, and then you get into sort of contingencies like rewards and punishments. You know, these days, because of my own interests and trajectory, you know, I think a lot about, you know,

the seven deadly sins and the virtues, right? I mean, if you look at any of the sins, okay, they're all very hypothalamic in nature, right? They're the extremes of hypothalamic function. In fact, you could probably, probably map the seven deadly sins onto the hypothalamus and say that nucleus, the ventured medial hypothalamus, those neurons are responsible for rage, for unbridled rage. Okay, those neurons are responsible for unbridled sexual activity. I'm not talking about merged with violence. I'm

just like independent of that. Those are consumatory behaviors. So eating hyperphagia. These are anorexia, you know, so I mean, all of the- What about, I have a question on that? Because envy is the only one of the seven deadly sins that doesn't feel good. Yeah. So you, Right, and I hadn't thought about that, but envy is probably not easily mapped to a hypothalamic nucleus. Isn't that an interesting insight? envy's the only one of the seven deadly sins that isn't something that can be enjoyable at low or high dose. Yeah, our good friend Paul Conti talks often about how much of the ills of the world are based on people's envy. When people don't have, when they have an uncomfortable feeling, most people will turn that into self.

destruction or destruction of others and people who are successful in life transmute those uncomfortable feelings into self-support and creating things and supporting others same feelings divergent paths um and envy uh you know paul has said many times is is the enemy of all of all personal development right you see something you know i always noticed you know coming up in science if um if something bad happens to somebody we most of the time, unless we really dislike them. But even then, you kind of go, oh, that sucks. You know, like, really feel bad.

But if something good happens for somebody, you know immediately how you feel about that person. Are you happy for them? Or is there that feeling of like, yeah, exactly. You know immediately how you feel. Great, Tate. That's such a good litmus test. Yeah. How do you feel when this other person wins? When somebody else loses, I guess even with that, it's an interesting one.

Like, is there a weird sense of satisfaction? Or are you like, fuck, like, I wish that person was okay. whatever it might be. Okay, bad habits. Yeah, so with bad habits, I mean, so I think about the, you know, the sins and bad habits mapping to hypothalamic nuclei because I'm me. And that's my nerdy perspective. But then you also think about the virtues, right? And overcoming bad habits or the virtues, they, I mean, I believe that most people are inherently good. I do. It may be true. Young may be right, that we have all things inside of us, but I think most people are inherently good. I think

there are a subset of people that given the opportunity to do things and not get caught, they would do really bad things. But I don't think that's most people. Okay. Or most dogs, by example, cats, I'm still on the, on the fence about. Cats can fuck them. Sorry, cat people. I know some nice ones, but in all seriousness, I think that the bad habits thing involves,

breaking bad habits involves a lot of top-down control, prefrontal cortex suppressing the activity of these hypothalamic and other subcortical neurons. And how do we know this? Well, if you want to summarize how the prefrontal cortex works, you'd say it's the structure in the brain it's that no don't reach for that cookie it's that no don't say that thing it's the don't do the thing that your hypothalamus don't do the thing it's the don't do the thing that your hypothalamus and other structures are creating some internal activation of the autonomic nervous system that kind of vibration of you want to do it it smells so good it tastes so good

you just want to i don't know why i did it this kind of thing so that top down control can be learned. And the beautiful thing, and this answers your question more directly, the beautiful thing is that at some point that top-down control is not required anymore, unless you do the thing you're not supposed to do, and then it requires top-down control again. Now, the reason I'm so interested these days, one of the reasons I'm so interested in spirituality and notions of God, et cetera, is that, you know, the virtues also, I believe, can start to arrive through things that are outside of us. Now, I realize that sounds very unscientific. But if you look at the science around religious belief or belief in higher power or the notion that humans don't have all the answers, not even the collective consciousness, what you find is that for everything from recovery from addiction to recovery from immense loss, I mean, the kinds of losses that go way beyond, you know, a death of a family member, although that's intense, you know, death of all one's children, for instance, horrible things that people have been put through.

almost without fail, moving through that with any kind of sense of self-preservation and not engaging in just self-destruction, which is what most people do, almost always involves some notion of top-down control from outside, you know, being encouraged or even instructed to do the right thing, feeling as if something is coming through oneself. Now, we often hear about this in the creative process, people like Rick Rubin and I'm a big Twyla Tharp fan, the choreographer, we'll talk about, you know, most creatives will talk about sort of downloading things

from outside of them. It kind of moves through them as opposed to arising purely within them because of all that sensory experience. But they can get into kind of these higher realms of spirituality. But when we're talking about breaking bad habits, overcoming immensely difficult scenarios that normally would throw people into complete self-destruction

or just giving up, which is a bad habit in its own right, it's as if the top-down control is so immense, like the going against oneself that's required is so immense that when people hand that over to God, whether or not Christ or whether or not some other form of God that they are, you know, that they're attached to, you know, it seems as if they get some relief from the process and yet it's very effective. And you can't deny this, right, just as a phenomenon. I mean, let's take off our hats as scientists and people kind of parse things. Like it, how could it be that the thing that's hardest for humans to do

for themselves becomes far easier when they stop trying to do it for themselves? It's a, it's a wild mind bend that neuroscience doesn't really understand. But, but, you know, what we're really talking about, let's say this were alcohol, and I'm not an alcoholic, fortunately, but let's say I had immense difficulty in refraining from alcohol. And this would be the precise environment and where this would, where alcohol would be attracted. The amount of top-downs, control that's required is immense for somebody that's recently sober they have to you know hopefully they're in 12 step they have to call their sponsor there it can be a jarring anxiety that anxiety eventually subsides i mean alcoholics eventually can hang out in bars and not have a drink but there's a long

period of time where they can and many never will be able to do that but the notion of a higher power is is central to almost every alcoholic at least who goes through AA getting sober it's that it's a it's almost a prerequisite and it's sense it is a prerequisite. And it's so brilliant that it is because it takes away the need for constant top-down control. You give that over to something else, this notion of a higher power. For some people, that's God, for some people, it's Christ. For some people, it's just general higher power because 12-step is very agnostic as to what people consider higher power. But I think it is not a coincidence that the Bible writes in these kinds of things about sins and

virtues and the need, not just good works, but avoiding sin, and acknowledges in some sense that it's, in some cases, near impossible for people to do on their own. And yes, community can help. And yes, reward processes can help. And yes, punishment can help. These all work. We know this. You can see this in animal learning studies. Where humans are different is that they can, as far as we know, humans are unique and their ability to give this top-down restriction process over to some other entity and it makes it easier not harder and it makes it more concrete somehow not more abstract the only abstract piece of it is that you know you can't shake this entity's hand at least not in the standard sense what do you think's going on i you know as usual you always

ask the question um which is why i i'm stomped right i mean it's i mean i'm trying to parse what could be going on but it always lands me back in neural circuits and neural structures I mean, I'm excited by some of the data that are starting to look at how consciousness might involve things from outside the brain and, you know, maybe multiple brains. And all I know is that having spent nearly three decades thinking about and researching and talking about neuroscience that, you know, we know a great deal about how sensations, perceptions, thoughts, memories, you know, emotions and behaviors are constructed, right? What we do. And yet we don't know how this piece comes about. But this piece has been central to the human historical perspective and human experience. And I don't think we're any longer in a place where we can even talk about human evolution

without this, right? I think humans evolved in the context of this. And that's why I don't see them as mutually exclusive. Much more a part of our history than the anterior mid-singulate cortex is. Yes. In fact, no one needed to know that the anterior mid-singulate cortex existed to know that there's a thing called tenacity and willpower. I think that the fun twist is that it's a highly plastic structure that we can engage and grow

and that reinforces the sets of behaviors that are involved and I think adaptive, right? But I absolutely think there's something real there. And I say that completely as a scientist, right? I mean, I'm used to immunostaining for proteins and running westerns and, you know, like recording from neurons and you're looking at neural circuits using any number of labeling techniques. I mean, I'm a man of science. But there's just no doubt in my mind that this process of giving over to the understanding there's something much greater than us and that we are not in total control, at least not in

total control, that feels very comforting to me because of the way it's, I've seen it help so many people. And, you know, I don't, I won't be shy about it. It's helped me tremendously. I mean, I'm in a very serious prayer practice. just daily now. Every night before I go asleep, without fail, I'm going on a couple years now where I've not missed a single night. I'll get out of bed if I fall asleep and do that. It's like a, and then also just prayer as a thing. Let's say it's just purely neurobiological.

Let's say there's nothing outside of us that, you know, that in the real sense. I don't believe that, but let's just assume for a moment. Well, then my neurobiology seems to be responding to all this very, very well. And I don't think I'm alone with that. In fact, I think there are too many burdens in life for anyone to be able to navigate life extremely well without these notions of higher power. I don't think people can do it. And you could show me the most successful, wealthiest people in the world. And I would say, yeah, but they are highly deficient in this area, not because I'm judging them, right? We're all deficient in some area. But it must be. It has to be. Because there's this huge gap in the knowledge set. I've never thought that,

I've never thought of that paradox, the fact that for a lot of people, billions of people, relinquishing control, the exact opposite of what it is that for most of the habits that, okay, we're going to suppress the anterior mid-singulate cortex, we're going to use our cognition to limit our distraction, we're going to narrow our focus, all the rest of it. It's intention, it's lean-in, it's agency, it's taking control. And then there's this other bit that literally billions. of people and up until a hundred years ago

almost everybody did assume was the seat of where their motivations and their discipline and for a while with the bicameral mind maybe even the voice inside the head came from that was the thing that was real. That was the source of this.

We evolved in that context. The brain evolved. Independently, right? This was convergent evolution from like 50 million fucking different corners of the universe. Absolutely. And, and, you know, it's my, you know, I love teaching science. I love learning and teaching science. I hope that's obvious to people. I, um, but it's my one wish for, for people that at some point in their life, they at least explore the possibility. And, um, and get morning sunlight. But the, but, but, but, but, you know, open to faith and get morning sunlight. Like I, I just hit 50 recently. And, and I will say, um, if I look back on my life, I, I, I, sure, I wish I had done certain things differently. I mean, who doesn't, right? This notion of, like, no regrets.

Like, yeah, I wish I had made certain decisions, not others. But by and large, I'm very, very happy with the decisions I made, by and large. And I was happy to discover resistance training and running and neuroscience and, you know, cuttlefish and ferrets. I had a pet parrot. And I don't recommend. Bulldogs. And I have an amazing relationship to family and friends. And I'm very blessed in my personal life.

And my romantic life is feeling awesome these days. And it's just like it's over. overwhelmingly positive despite a lot of strain and hardship. But the one thing that I wish that I had done earlier was to stop resisting the voice in my head that said, you know, I think I think there's a God and I'm going to pray. I kept pushing that away. It was like incompatible with my notion of what it meant to be a scientist. It was just incompatible with things. I just kept pushing down and yet at the same time wishing for it. And recently on my 50th birthday, I had to give an uncomfortable toast because believe or not, I'm somewhat introverted, especially in the large groups i'm happy to talk science and talk like this with you but um and i and i said it then and i'll say it again now like i'm 50 and for the first time in my life my entire life i've experienced sustained times of real deep peace like just peace like just the like everything's okay everything is as it should be not just some little mantra that you say when you're on the big surcoise like and why i think it's because i stopped fighting so hard to try and control everything inside me

and in my life and as a consequence everything has become much easier it's still challenging but much much easier and it's 100% because of giving over to notion of higher power i'm very direct about it's god higher power for me right reading the bible this kind of thing prayer i mean is these are practices this isn't just i believe in god these are practices as are faith-based practices and it's become a source of immense um intellectual stimulation for me and also just relaxation and it's really it's my wish for anyone that's like struggling or doing well because i i'm certain that it holds so much power and again even if it turns out and i'll never know, but even if it turns out that it's all filtered through, you know, standard neurobiological

mechanisms, you know, um, okay, I'm good with that. But in the meantime, like, I'm going to keep praying. Like, and you can look at examples all around and all through history where people have said similar things in circumstances far more challenging than mine. And they'll always point to the same thing. I mean, people are, you know, people are. are pretty um can be pretty irrational but at the same time humans are also pretty miraculous in what they're able to build and develop and this whole thing you know god and religion has not been discarded if anything it's growing right i mean you know the data on that better than i so anyway i don't have a whole lot more to say about that you said something to me uh over three years ago now uh you said

it's all internal. Can we revisit that? Yeah, I guess now I would say it's all internal except for the stuff that's coming from outside the human awareness. Yeah, but it's all internal in the sense that, good on you for remembering that, it's all internal in the sense that, you know, I think that the big mistake that I made for a number of years was trying to find thing that comes from outside that's going to change things and you know lord knows i love caffeine and i love doing certain activities and um and learning but at some point you realize that the the ability to um like withhold uh like reflect reflexes that you don't want to have like you know getting your temper sparked or something you know people who say no one can make you feel anything

and i say that's crazy people can make you feel things all the time you know the ability to to not speak from your first thought, but your second or your third. You know, you hear these kind of cliches, right? But all of that ability comes from inside. It's from doing internal work. And it's kind of amazing how much we can accomplish, and I'm certainly not the first to say this,

how much we can accomplish by just stopping and listening and going, wow, like my brain's crazy. It's like all these thoughts, all this stuff. Oh, too much input coming into this. Like, I've got to shut down this thought path. Also realizing that, you know, know, because these thoughts layer on themselves, our sensory memories layer on top and we feed our thoughts. I mean, Jenny Groh's description of how thinking works, makes you think that, yeah,

like if you're ruminating on something that really bothers you, you probably do want to distract yourself, unless you're really going to work on that thing. That you really can feed thoughts like embers and a fire. And it's important to not do that if it's not adaptive. A quick aside, if you have been feeling a bit sluggish, your testosterone levels might be the problem. play a huge role in your energy, your focus and your performance, but most people have no idea where theirs are or what to do if something's off, which is why I partnered with function because I wanted a smarter, more comprehensive way to understand what's happening inside of my body. Twice a year, there are in lab tests that monitor over 100 biomarkers and their team of expert

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finish a marathon in first place, nobody is coming along and dripping dopamine into the back of your brain. It's all internal. This is self-generated stuff. The satisfaction that you get for finishing a hard workout, the love that you feel from being with the people that you care about, the peace that you have for lying in a hammock in a sunny spring afternoon or whatever, at no point are you being sort of flicked different neurochemicals and sensations? Like, this is a part of your system. Yeah. And if you hit the system hard, like, you know, like the thing I absolutely suggest people

never do is, you know, something like methamphetamines, right, is going to, what, a thousandfold increase in dopamine within moments. I mean, is that what that is? Yeah, as compared to, or even more, as compared to cocaine, which I think is like 200, you know, like a 200X and, I mean, it's, or maybe a doubling. I mean, I forget the exact numbers, but there's this chart that AnaLMQ will often put I'm methamphetamine is going to, you're basically going to dump as much dopamine as you ever could in that moment. And then the trough is obviously proportional to that. It's kind of fun, too, to think about how because of conversations from me and you and others and Matt Walker, like the world kind of understands dopamine now. They understand the nuance of every little bit of every one of the four different pathways and there's probably five, et cetera. No, but that's okay. Do they, do people understand everything about cortisol? No, but I think the world is is now armed with a lot better knowledge of their own physical. and psychology and how those merge.

I also think that we're starting to understand, actually on the way over here, my producer and close friend Rob was talking about this, that, you know, everything now is gambling. Social media is a form of essentially gambling for dopamine, you know, likes and follows, you know, markets, you know, I mean, my team, their team, the politics. I mean, a good friend has said, you know,

that all addiction. is gambling you know all addictions maybe are gambling um in different forms um i would say it all boils down to the same neural circuits of anticipation and and reward expectation and the scariest thing was i have a good friend ryan suave who works with addicts and and he's trauma therapist as well incredibly talented guy and he said that um you know the scary thing is he's known many gambling addicts that get addicted to the shame from losing oh wow and we said that that's You're not even chasing the wins anymore. You're chasing the losses and the way that you feel about yourself after you've lost.

Yeah, it's almost like the winds were not big enough. And so they're just chasing the self-shame and the hatred. It's really sad. Gambling addicts struggle big time. CoffeeZilla just did a huge new video about gambling and sort of how endemic it is. And there's banking apps that allow you to gamble inside of the app now. And he's done, I learned an awful lot about gambling from, from watching a bunch of the videos he's done in the past.

And it really is kind of wild to me that it's legal. And the only way that I can say, I'm sure like you, we've been offered like an unlimited number of gambling, sports betting, partnerships and stuff like that. I like gambling, actually. A little bit, but I don't have a problem with it. I don't have a problem with it either,

which is exactly why it's for, yeah, yeah. We should go to Vegas. but it's kind of mad to me that this is legal and you know fucking don't hate the player you know the game is is much bigger than any individual person that's contributing to it like fair play but it's it is really fucking destructive for for some people but then so's alcohol so is driving fast cars on motorbikes or the hypothalamus isn't going anywhere right I mean everyone's got one and so you got to find the things that allow you to be adaptive and functional in life, not crater the things you've created, and also

to feel like you're in the hunt. I mean, the hunt was the original gamble, right? Hunting for animals, hunting for food, hunting for mates. Seeing that thing grow closer on the horizon, working out the anticipation of it coming towards you. I'm getting closer, I'm getting closer, and getting closer. Surviving a storm probably felt like a big win at some point. I mean, you know, like the number of women who used to die in childbirth and then they were, you know, and then someone solved that puzzle, right? It was a hand washing, I think, had a lot to do with it, right? I don't know if this story is true, but the story goes that there used to be a ton of death and childbirth.

And some of the same physicians who were trying to figure out why were handling and dissecting the cadavers of these poor women who died in childbirth and then delivering babies the same afternoon without handwashing in between because we didn't understand bacteria. We understand the importance of hand washing. I don't know if that's true. That's been what's been reported. But once they started washing their hands between essentially doing autopsy and delivering babies, rates of death in childbirth went down.

Here it is. So I wrote this article about the Cassandra Complex. Do you know the Cassandra Complex? No. Oh, dude, this is so cool. And I don't know anyone named Cassandra. Well, let me... Maybe you do.

Allow me to teach you about the Cassandra Complex. There are few feelings worse in this life than being right but early. You correctly predict a future catastrophe, trend, opportunity for growth or important area of focus, only to be castigated for how short-sighted, xenophobic, judgmental, out of touch, left-wing, right-wing, or alarmist you are. The Cassandra complex is when someone accurately predict a negative future event or truth, but no one believes them. And they're often dismissed, ignored or even ridiculed. It's named after Cassandra, a figure in Greek mythology, the god Apollo gave her the gift of prophecy, but after she rejected his advances, he cursed her so that no one would ever believe her warnings.

She foresaw the fall of Troy, warned everyone, and was met with scorn. The city burned anyway. Rachel Carson, in her book, 1962, Silent Spring, warned about the environmental damage caused by pesticides. She was mocked by chemical companies and even some scientists, but her work eventually led to the environmental movement at the banning of DDT. Ignais Sammelweis, in the 1840s, realized that doctors were transmitting childbed fever from autopsies to mothers. by not washing their hands. He begged his colleagues to adopt handwashing. They laughed at him.

He died in an asylum. Decades later, germ theory proved him right. Wow. Let me give you this. The one, the best example of the Cassandra complex that I fucking love is the comparison between Copernicus and Galileo. So obviously people that are right but early get, marked castigated, you know, push to one side, which is incentive for someone to not speak up

if they feel like they are telling the truth, but that the world is not going to be sufficiently receptive to it. And Copernicus and Galileo, like, so great as an example of this. Copernicus in the early 1500s quietly proposed something radical. The earth orbits the sun. Humans, once the unmoving center of God's design, were now spinning through space on a planet among many. But Copernicus hesitated. laid publishing his heliocentric model for decades. His great work, de la revolutionibus, came out only as he lay on his deathbed, likely to avoid the wrath of the church and academia. His truth was too disruptive, and so, for most of his life, it went unheard. Galileo, a century later, took that same Copernican spark and shouted it from the rooftops. He saw the moons of Jupiter, the faces of

Venus, and the imperfections of the moon's surface. All evidence that the heavens were not as fixed or divine as taught. The church responded with fear. Galileo was dragged before the inquiries, forced to recant under threat of torture and sentenced to house arrest for the rest of his life. In retrospect, it is not surprising that Copernicus kept his mouth shut, given how Galileo was treated. This is a core truth of the Cassandra complex. Being right isn't enough and being early can feel like being wrong. Wow. Yeah, I mean, much lesser example than what you just described. But, you know, the glymphatic system was discovered many years earlier by a woman at NIH. Oh, excuse me, at University of Maryland, a larger, more powerful scientific group

tried to repeat the experiments, made a methodological flaw, couldn't repeat it. Everyone believed them. There's no lymphatic system in the brain. Fortunately, she became an NIH program officer, which is somebody who has some degree of control over where funding gets directed and funded the work that later verified her findings. But it was purely by virtue of the fact that the power structure was arranged in a certain way. This happens a lot in science. I think you'd enjoy, Chris, that, you know,

everyone thinks of Darwin and natural selection. But there was another guy, Alfred Russell Wallace, who essentially discovered all of it in parallel and should have been elected to the Royal Academy and all of this stuff as well, like Darwin. but was not in the club, in the in club. And Darwin knew it. And actually was very, from what I understand, very conflicted about not sharing the credit.

It was only because of that rivalry that Darwin ended up pushing his study out, his work out, right? I think he had it, he sat on it for a while, he wanted to work on it more, he had a little bit of sort of hypervigilent uncertainty and insecurity about himself. And then finally, upon hearing, oh, I might be beaten to the punch. published. Is that right? Yeah, nobody associates Alfred Russell Wallace with the theory of evolution natural selection. I mean, most people don't even know who it is. I mean, because my dad's a physicist and because I grew up in science, I know a lot of these stories. I mean, I know a story of I'll keep this intentionally vague. There's a very, very famous and accomplished physicist that probably should have won a Nobel Prize. But he made one error, which is that he stole the girlfriend

of one of his graduate students, married her. that graduate student did reasonably well. It must be very uncomfortable to work in the lab where your girlfriend is now sleeping with your boss. Wow. He went on to marry a Swedish woman. And let's just say that guy that stole the girlfriend never won a Nobel Prize.

The Swedish community is very close-knit, you know? So, I mean, the number of stories, I could tell you story after story after story like that. But I try and avoid those stories, even though they're true. I'd much rather tell stories about the great scientific discoveries that were made. That stuff goes right. So when stuff goes right, because, you know, that stuff's very enticing.

It's the drama that we, you know, are drawn to as humans. Just naturally, we have a proclivity for that. But I think that there's so many stories of people making incredible discoveries through serendipity and hard work and things like that. So, I mean, that's the good stuff. And so I always try and if I mention a story like that, I like to balance it out and remind people that. I do think that most scientists are well-intention. I do think most physicians are well-intention.

I just had a guest on the podcast, David Faganbaum, who's a physician at UPenn and scientist. And, you know, he was a football player. Big dude, Jack. He's like six, three, Jack. He's playing football. He's in medical school. And he gets this Castleman's disease, which is a cancer-like disease of the lymphatic system. He's told that he's going to die.

He basically was near dead. and then he decided to just start trying all these already approved prescription drugs that nobody thought had anything to do with Castleman's or cancer and he's alive now 11 years later and he's developed this not for profit called Every Cure where they is completely not for profit and his lab focuses on taking all the diseases that we have

like 14,000 diseases we have no treatments for and taking existing approved drugs that basically stand to make companies very little money because they're all generic form now and using AI and doing these things in combination They've saved kids from nonverbal forms of brain illness. They've saved people, adults, and children from from cancers. Turns out that women who have breast cancer surgery that involves lydocane as a local anesthetic have a 30% less chance of getting a, you know, having a recurrence.

Different uses for aspirin for colon cancer. I mean, you know, and so his belief. They're repurposing old drugs for current unanswered. So his belief, as a physician, as a card-carrying member of that community is that the field of medicine has many cures in hand and excellent treatments in hand for the things that people are struggling with.

So then when I hear this stuff about, well, low-dose lithium, everyone, maybe pinging that once a year for offsetting the potential for Alzheimer's, or now we're hearing a lot about the particulate and certain air pollution, you know, might be one of the primary players in causing dementia.

You know, when I hear this stuff, it's like we need to be testing existing medication, And so the field of medicine, the fields of science, you know, as having been in this field of science for a long time, although now I'm in public education and still faculty member at Stanford, the key thing to understand is that it is a business of people. There's a sociology to the business, just like there's a sociology of podcasting in media, which, you know, is a discussion to itself. But this is actually what really made me understand Rogan a lot better. I remember at one point some years back, I asked him, I'm like, where does your kind of, like, belief or skepticism in certain things come from? And he just looked me dead in the eye

and he just said, because I know people. And he, anyone that knows Rogan knows he has a lot of different kinds of friends. And he interacts with a lot of different types of people. Yep. He's not narrow. He's extremely broad in his interactions, not just on his podcast.

And I realized in that moment, I was like, okay, got it. He casts this really wide net, but he has a very selective, filter about what he integrates. And it's because he understands people, the, you know, good and bad aspects of people. And I think that's the kind of acumen that is only developed through life experience. And if you're a scientist or you're a physician and you're very entrenched in your field, you can be the best oncologist, the best ophthalmologist, the best

neurologist. And if you're considered the best because of your knowledge within that silo or even multiple silos, but you don't have life experience and know people from different areas of life. I guarantee you are not the physician I want to be treated by or that I want a family member treated by. Yep. Because you have to understand not just the information and the source of the information in terms of paper and rigor and laboratory. You have to understand the motivations and almost the personality types of the people behind that work. It's so true. I mean, this was the beautiful baptism of running nightclubs for so long. I'm at a million people in person.

And their inhibitions are down because they're drinking. Absolutely. And some things are tuned up, you know, aggression or openness or their humor or, you know, whatever it is that they're trying to do, it really reveals and kind of, I guess, exaggerates who people are. But fuck, like, you become really, really good at judging people and really, really good at assessing this person's motivations. How sort of real is this?

It's been a couple of times on the pod where I've sat down with someone and I'm like, I don't know what I think about this person. And after I've sat down with them, like, I know. And I know I'm one of a couple of directions. I'm like, oh, that was good or whatever. But like, I, we're not going to go. You didn't believe what they were saying. We're not going to go.

We're not going to go. I've had that experience. I won't mention the guests, obviously. I would say, you know, 95% of, 98% of our guests I've felt that way. There was only one or two instances that that I got any kind of. inkling that like they weren't as sure as they sounded or something of that sort but but i think that that's the that's the good thing about podcasting is that it's not just an interview right like you can ping people for ideas and you can ping people around those ideas you're not trying to you're

not trying to catch them in anything but you really i mean it's funny because we're sitting across it's like how you get to know anybody you would sit across from them and you would talk to them It's in the smallest, I use this example of watching musicians on stage. So one of the things that I find coolest about anybody that does anything a lot is not them doing the main thing. It's their transition activities within the thing. So, for instance, I spent a long time at university. If you put a pen in my hand, it just immediately starts moving through my fingers. You're one of those.

I know my students. If I look out and I kind of blur my vision. I'm not teaching in the classroom much these days, although, soon I will again and um it's like it's like you're watching a bunch of propellers a Mexican wave of pen twirling yeah I just because I did I put a pen in my hand and I do that um one of my friends Zach the way that he takes if he ping if one of his guitar picks goes while he's playing he's warming up for me on tour um if one of his guitar picks goes like the way that he fucking like just just seamlessly snags another one like that's what's fucking cool because that is this

moment of unconscious trail of pattern would be a way to think about it. A drummer that like snaps a stick and you'll just see and he'll switch seamlessly or he'll be playing, he was playing the high hat with his right hand and his right drumstick goes. So he'll switch and you'll see him move with his left and then it's back out and you're like, dude, that's so fucking cool. I love seeing people that are the way that the guys will set up their cameras. Like I'll see the guys taking a shot and they'll need to change something. And I'm like, you just did six things in two seconds.

It's like hyper proficiency. It's so fucking cool, right? I think that's so sick. I want to touch on what you said before, which was sort of the fixation that people have groups, different groups have on stuff. What do you make of the attempt of legacy media to turn, get more high quality protein into a political issue? I think this has been one of the most interesting patterns to see that protein has become politically coded somehow. And obviously this is kind of for the health and wellness industry, kind of old hat now to talk about like protein is prioritizing protein is something that you probably should consider or at least be aware of. But yeah, what do you make of the fact that protein consumption has become politicized? And resistance training for a little while, although I think the wave caught to stimulate the idea that everybody, men, women, young and old should be resistance training so you can no longer like kind of bro-science resistance training. Although I have to say, even though I have respect for certain elements of bodybuilding, I do think that the body building, the bodybuilding

culture, I think, has kind of distracted from what's possible with resistance training as a positive health stimulus. A lot of people are still averse to it. Because you look at people who are bodybuilders and don't exactly see the picture of health. Yeah, and I think it's also the the way that bodybuilding changes the entire relationship to food in general and to life in general. And any, look, anything that's so, look, I, I think Daryne Yates is an amazing athlete, right? I can think of him as an athlete and what he did and the way he did it. And I knew Mike Menser and he was the one that. You knew Mike Mencer? No way. He was, he sold me my first training program by phone. I can tell you the story. I'll tell you that in a moment. That's sick. New Menser. I read about

I'm in my book that comes out later this, later next year, new Menser, had a lot of conversations about Menser, not just about resistance training, but also about school and philosophy. He was one of the people that really encouraged me to get serious about my academics. Wow, Mike Menser was part of your origin story. Yeah, Mike Menser who I'll just, I'll get back to the trad media thing, but yes, I signed up for a program. He's the reason why still to this day, you know, since I was 16, 50 now, as I mentioned, still train three. maybe four days a week, not one set to failure, but keeping set volume low.

One thing that isn't advertised a lot, Mike didn't talk about in his seminars, is that a lot of what determines total set number is how well you can really direct the effort toward the muscle you're trying to target. So some people are exceptionally good at that, I think Dorian was. Other people, like, no matter how hard they try and curl

with just their biceps and forearms and interior delts, like it's going everywhere, you know? And so a lot of it is about being, muscle connection is... One thing he was very clear about is that as you get better at training, the neural component of contracting the muscles that you're trying to contract, you actually can get by with fewer sets because you're able to direct more intensity to those muscle groups. So over time, I found, yeah, I probably do somewhere between six and eight sets per muscle

group, but with two, I can not slaughter the muscle, but I can get where I need to go. But I like training, so sometimes I'll do more. But yeah, Menser was great. I signed up for this program. My mother was like, I was 16 or maybe even 15 years old. And she was like, why is this a grown man calling the house? Because back then you do like a phone consultation. And Mike didn't talk.

Mike barked. He'd be like, listen. And the only thing, you know, and he would say, he's like, and the number one thing is you don't want to listen to anyone else besides me. He told me, he said, he said most people in gyms are expletive morons. He said they're morons. He kept saying these people have the intelligence of a toad. And he would just like yell and yell. And then he'd recommend these six sales call.

And then he'd recommend these an or end. books. And then the only, I even had some sleep issues when I was in college because my dorm was really loud. You know what, you know the advice he gave me? This is so wild. And I have a friend from college who's now a fertility doc here in, in, um, in L.A. And he remembered the story. Menser, this is terrible advice. He said, get a jug of white wine and just have like a half mug of white wine. If you wake up in the middle of night, you'll fall back. First of all, it doesn't work at all. Okay. So like hit and miss. Oh, listen, Mike, Mike was an extreme guy. But, but, but he, he, he, actually said, he said, stay away from anabolics, which I did. He said, enjoy learning to

train hard. Enjoy your training hard. He said, even though he wasn't a fan of cardio, like, get out and live life. And he said, and read really good books. And we gave me his book list. And, and so to that, yeah, I still follow the same. Yeah, Mike was amazing. And then when he died, I heard later, I was very, it was very sad. I mean, we'd been touched a little bit because I was in Santa Barbara and he was down in L.A. at that time. Okay. So, Menser. protein politicization what's going on well traditional media is like we'll take anything at this point as an attempt to gulp for error because they're they're really struggling right i mean there are some decent journalists in traditional media right there are i think that they um but they'll not just

by quote unquote politicizing something gives them something to say about it right one gram of protein per pound of lean or desired body mass is kind of the standard thing now some people little less some people a little bit more okay fine fine um i think we all get that that's the goal if you get a little less you're probably fine if you get a little more you're probably fine if you get tons more you're probably not fine you get tons less you're probably not fine animal proteins clearly superior as a as a quality protein to calorie ratio right you give me an eight ounce piece of steak or you have to eat half a jar of peanut butter which is not protein it's a bunch of fat with a little bit of protein in any okay so why do they pull this size it well because they're struggling

They're struggling. They're struggling big time in terms of how to generate revenues. I mean, people expect to get their news. Two things have certainly happened. I believe Ezra Klein on this, that people are no longer digesting their news as local news as much. It's more national level news and international level news. And look, putting your name in a title or Rogan's name in a title is going to generate clicks. And if you and saying great things about people, kind things about people generally doesn't get. He's such a nice guy. Yeah, I mean, listen, I've had a few nice articles written, and some of the health magazines will pull protocols and things, and I love it. And, you know, I would say things in the health section, the New York Times, very often parrot what I've covered and other people have covered, and they do it differently.

But you can often predict what they're going to cover by looking at the various health podcasts. Peter's, sir. Peter was just on 60 minutes, Peter Attia. Yeah, I texted him about it. And he said, as he said, nice to see traditional media not accusing me of something unspeakable for ones. Yeah, I mean, they seem to focus a bit much on, like, how much he charges his clients

and this kind of thing as... Well, I mean, the fact that he said that that was a sort of clean and fair interview, despite the fact that there is some fuckery going on in there. Yeah. It just goes to... Well, listen, they're, they've... To say they're losing power as an understatement, they've lost power. To some degree, there's still some trust there from a number of people.

and to some degree you know every topic health topic in particular seems to go through the same arc it's like nobody knows about it except in niche cultures let's just take the glymphatic system nobody knew about it this one woman discovered it was not suppressed but it was kind of knocked back then it came out as all the rage then 20 a few years ago their study not as much glymphatic clearance as we thought and you occasionally someone's like oh it's not a not a real thing one mouse study one mouse study didn't see it right and I know the history of the glymphatic research. So it's very clear it's there. Okay. So then the arc is, okay, exciting, exciting, exciting. Take dopamine, dopamine nation on a Lemke's beautiful

work. Yep. Then about 18 months later, it's, well, it's not, you know, it's just in my... Overblown, Values. Listen, creatine, the next, like, you can guarantee that in eight weeks or six months or whatever it is, it's going to be creatine, not as important as we thought for there's just the natural arc right and then it's the yes the things that work still work and the things that don't don't it's very rare for anything to sort of capture and then just get completely obliterated like i was talking about delaying caffeine by you know 90 minutes or so if you crash in the afternoon it's a great thing to try then there was so it got a lot of positive attention then there was the pushback show me the clinical trial show me the benefits it's like no it's show me whether

or not you crash in the afternoon try it if you want or don't like hey either It's a suggestion, it's grounded in mechanistic science, but even the coffee accounts on YouTube were pissed off about this. Listen, the big thing, I guess the direct answer to your question is, you're taking their paycheck. Do you know how much these reporters make? You're taking their paycheck. The irony of it is, if you look at some of the advertisements in traditional media, it's like fendi bags and like all these, like, fancy things. And in some cases, dietary supplements. So they are our competitors, but, and this is the critical caveat, they're competing with us, I never think about what they're doing.

I never look. I don't care if somebody's something like, okay, I'm never going to modify my content on the basis of what any of these traditional media houses are doing. They are in the chase position now, 100%. Now, does that mean that we will always be, you know, leaders in this space? no one has to be very careful to not assume that right there's some kid some guy or gal someplace who's going to take my lunch someday that's the way you know and i'm not a kick out the ladder from you i don't give i'll hop on instagram live and give people 100 suggestions about how to get their content out more broadly from based on what i know i'm just not that way i was weaned in a culture

of science where you train people my students are now on the job market or have labs etc that's the way it's done. But traditional media are competitors of podcasts. That's why they've started podcasts. You and I are very fortunate that we started podcasts in the, in, I wouldn't say the first wave, but like if we were making now just a punk, second wave punk based. I mean, listen. When did yours launch? Uh, 2021. Did it really? Yeah, January 2021. Fucking a hell. I thought it was before that. But 2020, I was going on a lot of podcasts. I went on like 30 podcasts. And prior to that, I was starting to teach a little bit on Instagram and that kind of thing. But I mean, podcasting is growing like crazy i mean i i want to encourage people to make content but the content that i

think is most important is not content about content this is the this is the really dangerous hook for people content about content and also you'll find that the people who have very successful podcasts tend to be people who are successful in something else first you certainly have that lex me rogan Rick Rubin. I mean, Theo, Whitney, it goes on and on. I mean, Tim Dillon, et cetera. And there's a bridge. There's a natural overlap between what people were trained to do and what they're doing in their podcast. But there are very few podcasts. I mean, I'm sure there are some that are just like someone decides like, I'm a podcaster. So the person who wants to be influential, for lack of a better phrase, in media, they want to teach. They want to teach science. They want to encourage thinking and make a living doing it. Encourage health practices, make a living doing it. I wouldn't encourage them to go do something else first that they really enjoy because that the structure of that and and that very thing is going to inform their content very few people are going to like if they start giving out degrees in in in media um i in sort of social media i i don't think it's going to be very useful Whitney cummins got the best take on this she says in order for art to imitate life you

have to live a life so good and it's one of the challenges you get is people become more successful that their ability to generate new ideas decreases because their life is increasingly out of touch. It's a comedian who only talks about dinners, shows, and airports, and hotels on stage because that's the entirety of their life experience. Or their craft. Sorry, Jindra, but or their craft.

I mean, you said I'm leading an increasingly eccentric life. I mean, the reason I have a pet octopus is always one. I had cuttlefish. I love a query. I have this art project with someone who's a kind of Are you going to try and justify buying an octopus as, like, inspiration for... I'm going to teach an octopus how to use an iPad. Okay.

And I'm going to decode what the camouflage patterns of the octopus mean for thinking. Is it a mimic octopus? What is it? No, well, right now I have an Indonesian octopus that's not very interactive. I want a Pacific 2 spot. This is a whole thing. It's going to open up some trauma for me. But I'm just kidding. I'm getting a new, new octopus soon. Caribbean Day octopus is probably on the way. But the idea is actually to use AI to try and deconvolve what the octopus is thinking and maybe even communicate with the octopus. They are very smart.

I had 40 cuttlefish in my lab in San Diego. They are so smart. And they're also cephalopods, cousins of the octopus. But the reason I'm doing that, the reason I have my art projects, the reason I extended my book for a year to add more studies, because I like learning. And as my friend of mine said, he's a very intelligent guy. um he's a tattooer among other things he's an exceptional artist and he said people with interests are interesting correct you know what's not interesting other people's failures other people's minor wins like there's nothing more boring than that yeah it but it hooks in the short term so social media

i think of as a very we should go up to clouds rest sometime and hike clouds rest and you know semi it's beautiful but there's this very narrow rock bridge out to the top and on either side it's slide to your death slide to your death and so i'm always doing i don't get down on all fours but it's it's uh it's precarious but it's beautiful when you get to the top and it opens up into a big flat spoon you're above half dome it's gorgeous i go there as often as i can but on either side you fall to your death and i always think of the internet and much of life like this on one side is the the fall to your death that is numbing out by going online and the other one is drama like like who's i mean i don't want to name names because i don't want to give it any

like recently there was an online drama in the fitness community and I was like I unfollowed a bunch of accounts I was like this is the most boring stupid thing I've ever seen in my entire life and this is seeding my thoughts yeah this is seating my but and like I got to go back to reading good books I'm going into my basement you know so you're allowed to unfollow accounts that you're not learning from or that are pulling you into either numbing out or drama the drama piece is very serious because it gives the illusion that there's something meaningful there but you realize this is just like it's It's nothingness. It is, that's a fascinating way to look at it. It is kind of the empty calories of the content world that you leave this, having been given the sort of simulacrum of learning something. But if somebody said, okay, after watching this 10 minute, half hour, one hour, expose or deconstruction, what do you know that you didn't know at the start? you go, well, I know about what this person and this person said to each other about each other and how the interplay. And look, deconstructing someone's psychological profile, understanding how human motivations work, I'm fascinated by the way that sort of social interaction, hierarchy, status games, all of that stuff.

But I'm not learning that. I'm not reading the status game by Will Storr. Well, you're a thinker. I mean, so when I mentioned this Rockbridge, I mean, it's the visual I keep in mind when I'm trying to get into. to solid work or solid thinking or going on social media. Like there's a narrow band of very useful things to learn and participate in. I think that... Infinity of bullshit than I decide.

You know, numbing out or drama on either side, the fall to the death, little by little. But what I think is that, because you are somebody who thinks deeply about human nature. I mean, I listened to your episode with Scott Galloway, and I'm not just saying this where they call it glazing on it. We used to just call it kissing somebody's ass. So I'm not trying to kiss your ass, but like, this is, there's an awesome episode. and your command of statistics and data and understanding your ability to frame it

and remember it, it's world class. Thank you. And you do that through hard work, but also through life experience. So I do think that living life in a way where you're collecting data, so to speak, and your understanding things is wonderful. But I guess what turned me off

to this one particular drama in such a strong way was it's yet another example of something I've seen thousands of times before. There was no new learning for me there, except that humans are just being humans. And so at some level, like, there's at some point that the novelty of life, the excitement of life, the enriching parts of life are about new experiences. Sometimes it's about experiencing the same thing and go, oh, yeah, this is a general theme

of me or of them or of life and understanding human nature. But at some point, you're like, this is just yet another drama on the schoolyard. This is just, this reminds me of, and it's sometimes useful to make the parallels. This is like in junior high school when so-and-so said something about so-and-so. And so you go, there's no new data. This would be like running, you know, I published some papers. I don't want to do those experiments again. Because especially if I get the exact same result, right?

Now, if I get a different result, that's different, but I was seeing the same thing again. And so I think in order to develop a healthy relationship to social media, which is really a big slice of life now for many people of all ages. And the skill that's only been around for 10 years. Right. I mean, I think you have to be extremely conscious of, like, when it got you and why, you know, I mean, you had a nightclub. You couldn't, you might have to respond to a catastrophe or something happening, but, like, you can enjoy yourself there too, but you were there to work. You were able to navigate that chaotic environment and get things done. A good example of this, you know, post nut clarity after copulation, the devil's laughter can be heard. I think Schopenhauer said that. An equivalent is post-content clarity. So after you've finished consuming a thing, how do you feel? Do you feel enlightened, hopeful, peaceful? Do you want to ring your mom and say that you miss her? Do you want to talk to your friends? Or do you feel like the world's out to get you and that there's less than is needed for everybody and you shouldn't really trust people and you're a bit sort of tight and tense and your shoulders are up and there's a ringing in your ears. Well, here's my litmus test.

After I spend a bit of time on social media, I ask myself later, do I remember anything from being on there? You know, the reflection, was there any learning? Did I learn anything? Listen, I learned some things from your discussion with Scott. I still got a little bit more to go in the discussion, so don't quiz me on it just yet. But I intend to think about it. In fact, this morning I went out for a run.

I listened to a podcast of somebody that I'm not particularly big fan of. but I wanted to get their perspective. And I thought a bit about some of the things that you and Scott had discussed. And I was reflecting on it, right? Because that's learning and that's the anti-forgetting process. I can't recall something I saw on social media yesterday that was very stimulating.

But I watched that 60 Minutes episode and it gave me some ideas and insights about what's going on in the world or what might not be going on in the world. And, you know, thinking about your experiences is it's so critical. to placing value on them, making them meaningful for you. What I'm not interested in is just an endless deluge of sensory input that goes nowhere,

especially if it impedes other things. So a little bit more reflection, 10 minutes, one minute, five seconds of just asking, did I remember anything useful? Do I want to do that again, as opposed to just the infinite way? You mentioned, I think there's a fucking great take, the arc of something new gets introduced, there is excitement, there is reaction, There is criticism and then usually acceptance, presuming that this thing is, like, true or valid or whatever. Yeah, like creatine, right? It's been around forever. I was laughing so hard.

So I want to talk about. So what do you think is the next frontier for public acceptance? Because I would say, vitamin D3 was... Check. Yeah, that's already done. It's gone through the cycle. Correct. We should actually plot this out. Be fun to do a post. We should do a post together, which is, by the way, public careers follow the same trajectory. you show up people are like who's this person then it's like oh you're very excited that then there's always up here's the flaw and then and then there's a very simple equation as to whether or not

that they are going to continue and continue to out popularity very simple equation was the sort of event more useful or interesting than what they contribute and if the answer is yeah that was actually more exciting than any one thing they ever said in terms of usefulness then they're gone that owned by they've stayed out at different rates their half life and it disappears but if what you're providing is useful if the person is if they still people still want you around so to speak it outlives that i mean this recent drama i don't want to dance around it too much but this recent drama i was like this nothing could be more trivial or stupid but i realize the reason it's probably i'm not pretending this and i don't wish ill on anyone but it's probably

going to pseudo end the career of this online person is because it was much more interesting in its drama than any value ad that they were given that's interesting Yeah, and they projected a fair amount of arrogance in their delivery of content and things. And if you do that, you're setting yourself up, right? That's a very, that's a big attractor early on. People like a sort of deserve a downfall of the person who's out of touch, 100%. Yeah, there's no coming back from that in, in a real way. Okay, so vitamin D3 has been through the cycle. Creatine is in the cycle, right? Creatine is currently. So it was vitamin, I would say vitamin D became first. Then protein. Right. Protein. And the protein thing is politicized a little bit too because there's something about meat that. it's considered right-wing. Right-coded, yeah. Which is, um, and then-creatine, you know the reason that creatine, I don't think is going to get politically coded is it's been so heavily pushed by women for women. Ronda Patrick, a lot of like Kelly Levesque, if you know, her, um, super hardcore female-led audience. It's important for women. Despite the fact you're probably going to

gain, you know, three pounds of, of weight. Water, weight. Yeah, weight. You're going to, scale's going to be heavy. Maybe you're going to look a little. little bit fluffier, but you can get rid of it by stopping it, right? It's like having a scale that's off. It's like as soon as you... Curves are in. Yeah, exactly. It's the one way in which things are not mimicking the 90s when everything was super wafy. I mean, I came up in the 90s when it was like the expectation on women was really extremely hard. Do you know the environmental security hypothesis? Sit back. Let me give you this one. So there is evidence to suggest that men prefer thicker women during times of economic downturn and

thinner women during times of economic uplift. So if the study, original study was done on students that were in halls of residence and they were eating at, you know, like a dinner time together where it would be provided by the halls of residence. And they showed men images of women of varying sizes before they ate and after they ate, multiple iterations all over the place. Before men ate, they preferred the bigger women. After men ate, they preferred the thinner women. And you can track the... There's an alternative interpretation.

Yes, yes, yes. You can track the sort of public popularity of body size, not shape. Waste to hip ratio always remains the same,

typically, but of body size overall to how the economy's doing. It's called the environmental security hypothesis. Basically,

the human behavioral ecology stuff, Mack and Murphy taught me about this University of Melbourne. He's brilliant. It's out of

Candice Blake's lab. And what it seems is happening is if you feel secure in your environment, you are not queuing for a mate or well, she can survive a tough time of a famine because times aren't that tough. Resources are abundant. Therefore, I don't need a woman who can signal that she can get extra calories and there's more sort of metabolically well-reserved, you might be able to say. The opposite is also true. And this tracks, the

economy tracks with the preference of body size. Wild. Wild. I love your command of this literature. It's awesome. I mean, I just, remember the 90s being a time of very like wafy models and uh because i was it you know came up through the skateboarding thing you know when i departed from you know biology before i went back to it in our i mean they had models like kate moss who are extremely thin and then um and actually in friends of ours who were skateboarders in new york like in washington square park our friend peter bc was kind of discovered in new york and ended up in calvin klein ads you know like skinny skateboarder right i mean he became a firefighter so now he's like he's jacked

appears still around it's a super good guy but um and they and really into his health now and stuff but we can kind of chuckle about the fact that like in the 90s like that was the look it was the kirk cobain look and as that whole thing yeah the larger guys are like you know it was it wasn't mark walber back then it was marky mark and the funky bunch remember and he was in the calvin clon ads with kate moss look at size man and he was and well he was pretty built then by by those standards so but now compared to the sort of typical sort of expectation of of muscularity in men. That big flation thing is huge.

You watch Bigger, Stronger, Faster, Mark Bell's thing. Oh, yeah, it's a great movie. Watch it some time ago, yeah. Yeah, it's 20, 2007, I think. Anyway, so, D3, protein, creatine, creatine's in it. Cretines made the cut, although I think because it's a powder and they're trying to put in gummies

and the flavored versions are really, the flavored momentous version, by the way, is awesome. It's like, I always had a hard. That's the little pastel thing, right? It's like a chewable. It tastes like sweet tarts. It tastes too good. They've just, Jeff sent me, in fact, I had it been loaded.

They're candy with creatine. With one gram of like a... One gram. Problem is I, so I've been taking creatine since I was probably 15, 16. I do a, I actually do the loading thing where I'd take like 30, 40 grams a day for a week and then cut back to 10 grams a day. And then I do a washout every 16 weeks or so where I stopped taking it completely. I know this is very unconventional for a week.

And you drop some weight. It's actually interesting. see how much strength you hold on to in that week. This is what I am without the assistance of 10 grams of creating it. I just do it for me. I don't. Well, look, you're talking to the school of fucking Mike Mensa. You're, well, let's do.

Okay, what's next? What do you think's next? Magnesium. Okay. Magnesium, three and eight or bisclisonate. I know there are multiple forms, you know, you malate for soreness, you know, et cetera, it's a citrate, laxative, you know, I would say, but bisclicinate and three and eight cross the blood brain barrier more readily.

I would say pre-sleep, you know, 30, 60 minutes before sleep. But, you know, our chair of otolaryngology head and neck surgery at Stanford, okay, came on my podcast, obviously says the hearing system, and she said that magnesium is protective against hearing loss. First of all, hearing loss, low-level hearing loss is associated with dementia, less sensory input, okay? Deaf people can be, obviously, very cognitively strong,

but they have other ways of bringing in sensory input. But partial hearing loss strongly correlated with dementia. hearing loss very common after concerts, in industrial workers, things like that. Magnesium protects against hearing loss. Why? The endolymph in which the hair cells that vibrate in response to sound,

that endolymph is like a thick kind of fluid, viscous fluid, is magnesium is a prominent feature of that endolymph, and it gets depleted by very loud sound, to some extent, but encouraging more magnesium in the endolymph is protective against hair cell loss, which is hearing loss,

which is permanent. even though it's low level, it accumulates over time. So magnesium, magnesium for cognition, magnesium for sleep, the whole argument that there's less magnesium in the soil nowadays because of the way farming is done has just been depleted, so you can get less of it. Oh, the Virom and the Viroam. Yeah, your kale of yesterday is not your kale of today, so to speak.

So I think magnesium supplementation is going to go through a wave of like, eh, they're just talking about that. Like Chris and Andrew are talking about that on podcasts, this is brozines. Then it's going to show up. Oh, wow. Like, you know, we've got the, you know, chair of auto laryngology, head and neck surgery at Stanford talking about magnesium supplementation to offset things like tinnitus, maybe a bit, but also protect against hearing loss, et cetera, et cetera. And then it's going to be like magnesium. Everyone should be taking magnesium. And then, you know what will happen? So I'm like this. You know, it's only an 11% difference in this population, et cetera, et cetera. I think this is one moment we're revisiting just very briefly the data on alcohol is worthwhile. It's been so many years of alcohol isn't a problem. Then alcohol is actually good for you, one or two drinks and I, as long as it's red wine. Then it's bad for you. And then recently it was, no, it's actually not that bad for you. And then now

finally, Stanford, Keith Humphreys and colleagues at Stanford did an analysis of all those previous papers and essentially found that the control groups in those studies that concluded moderate drinking is good for you were completely off. They were, they were comparing sick people to less sick people in one case. And it turns out that when you, when you normalize for proper controls and you look at all the studies, you do the, the meta-analyses without fail. Zero is better than any. One or two per week, you're probably fine. Still do all the things that you're supposed to promote your health. Moderate drinking is bad for you in terms of elevating cancer risk, certainly disrupting sleep in microbiome and a bunch

other things that aren't good. If you want to drink, drink. But we are now landed squarely in zero is better than any. And those aren't my data. Those are data from the best people for analyzing the large-scale studies, the smaller studies across the board. And I can refer you to the analysis of the analysis. It's quite solid. That Lancet article, that Lancet study from what, 2016, 17? So the reason that my company in the UK is called Six Month Sober Limited is because the first thing that I ever did before I even launched the podcast was I was like, elective sobriety as somebody who didn't have a, um, drinking problem was so fucking beneficial to me as a productivity strategy, as a guy in his 20s that, because northeast of the UK club promoters

stopping drinking was fucking revolutionary a decade ago. Like, what he'd, oh my God, like he's crazy. It's like the, you know, Brian Johnson fucking penis injection. Like the Ben Greenfield. That crazy. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, oh my God. Why are you doing this thing? Now, you know, low and no is very sort of common. and I was like I want to get other people to do this I think that'll be cool and I was like if I can teach people to go sober for six months

that'll be fucking sick and instead of registering it as like Modern Wisdom Limited before I did Modern Wisdom I was like I'll do six months sober and like I'll teach people that this is like real good for them and I was one to one coached four people through I think six months of it to like test whether or not my approach had done

it was daily coaching and people would follow this course and do all the rest of it but yeah that Lansett thing was like my foundational scientific justification but it's like okay these are all of the reasons that the outcome is good as you said it's like

just do the thing and see if you feel better like do push your caffeine by 90 minutes and tell me if you don't have a crash later that day like easy experiment I don't need to explain to you the mechanism if you can get the outcome that you're looking for

the same thing as I learned from you what is it a locomotion with lateral eye movement on a morning walk down regulates anxiety big time and not if you're looking at your phone I'd been doing that

I'd been doing morning walk thing for maybe Mark Bell's, like, post-parandial thing for as long as I can remember, right? Stan Effording's been big on this. Yeah, my total, like, obsessive bro era when I had this ridiculously convoluted morning routine, which, like, escape velocity me out of being the adult infant I was as a club promoter and, like, I'll do meditation and load of gratitude and all the rest of the shit. And I was like, if I wake up and I'm on the wrong side of the bed and I go for a walk and I come back, like, ah, shit doesn't feel as hard as it did before.

So I didn't need you to tell me that it's because of the locomotion and the passage of stuff moving past you as your focal point stays the same in the lateral eye movement down. I'm like, it's great that I now know the mechanism, as you said earlier on, because it sort of justifies the buy-in. I have this sort of odd kind of investment. And I'm almost more the fact that I found it myself, then it gets justified by the science. I'm like, fucking yes. Well, I think there's an interaction there. Look, I mean, the placebo effect is very real. The mechanism underlying what you're describing, also very real independent of placebo effect. I think that what I'm referring to as the buy-in, of people understanding a bit of underlying mechanism for the things that clearly work. Like, do you need to understand that there are three forms of a stimulus for hypertrophy, you know, damage to the muscle? Hypoplasia, hypotrophy. Yeah, do you need to, do you, no.

But can it inform better choices about training? Yes. Do you need to understand what those are in order to grow a particular muscle group? No, but if you understand a bit of what's likely happening under the hood, it affords you tremendous flexibility. It's also, look, I also believe that knowledge and gaining knowledge, not only learning, but learning and doing, is what humans thrive on. I believe in the pursuit of knowledge, in learning.

I mean, a lot of my podcast content, like, I'd love to tell you the protocol for this, but it's actually just really effing cool. And if you don't think it's cool, that's okay. Which is how you work. You do your essentials thing, right? Right. Which is kind of the strip back. Protocols only, basically. Diluted. Critical science protocols only. But what you'll find is that people who do the buy-in

of learning a little bit about how something works, hopefully they learn something about cortisol and sunlight today and these kinds of things. It starts to make sense as to why you actually feel better when you feel more energized. It's not a placebo effect. What you're explaining is why it's not a placebo effect. That's a good. So yeah, so you get more buy-in. What I think is for me is cool, and you said it earlier on, is if you know why this thing works, you can be a little bit more robust and flexible with how your strategy goes. You're not, just do this thing. If you don't know why you do the thing or what the mechanism is, even at a very basic level, as soon as you don't do that precise thing, you have no fucking idea what you're doing. Or when things don't seem to

go so right. So, for instance, if you exercise it late in the day and then the next morning, you're like, I'm feeling sluggish. Like, is there something? No, actually, you had a cortisol bump last night. It's a negative feedback loop. Your cortisol is naturally suppressed. Get a bit more sunlight. The mechanisms, excuse me, the protocols start to bridge together, what to do in case A, B, C, or D

because you understand the principle below it, which is cortisol at one time impacts cortisol at another time through this thing called the negative feedback loop. Well, Josh Waitskin, the great Josh Waitskin of, you know. I love that episode between, dude, I text, I should sit down and have a conversation. I had to text you about it. I was like, this guy. Because me and George, my housemate, are like, have obsessed over Josh, the art of learning. He's got another book in progress.

I'm going to connect to you guys because you guys would hit it off. I fucking love it. So well. He comes to the states pretty off. He lives out of the street. Yeah. He moved down to the jungle at one point. But he talks about knowing, like, the principles below the principles.

Yeah. Or underneath the principles. So the principles underneath the principles. And then being a practitioner as well of some of those principles, right? and then being connected to people in your field and related fields that deeply understand a stack of principles as well. That's what expertise really is.

And this is why, and I'm not taking a dig at doctors, but this is why, listen, recently I had a weird medical thing. I took a new prescription drug, as somebody said, then I had what I thought was a vestibular thing. Turns out it was low blood pressure. It was diagnosed in one moment by a superb physician. By that afternoon, I was fine, but I could have just chased, gone down the rabbit hole.

I was getting all sorts of crazy, suggestions about what to do. Look, just like they say in music, sport, I'll say it for podcasting and in medicine and science, there are levels to this shit. Some people are way better because they have principles understood and underneath those principles are understood underneath. They understand how they connect up and connect down

and they know people. It's one thing for a physician to say, this will handle your cholesterol. But more often than not, what a physician in one siloed aspect of medicine will suggest will create a side effect that will create a job someday for another physician in a different silo. And it's just the way the training is done. And Faganbaum would say this is also the way that drugs are categorized. You know, this drug is for this, this and this, and therefore nothing else. And he said, wait,

no, that drug could potentially cure or treat many other things. And so he's exploring that in a serious way. And getting results, curing disease, literally. So I think it's not to say that people with degrees are idiots, it's that, let's hope not, right? I spent a lot of time getting degrees. It's that just having degrees in some cases, not always, are necessary but not sufficient. But most what is absolutely necessary and sufficient is to understand the major principles, the principles below those and how those connect and then to be able to contact people and to talk to people and to be a practitioner. It's very clear to me that you're training as a nightclub owner informed you,

so strongly about human nature, also about biology, not just because you were staying up late and sleeping into the day, but those, the, the themes of what you experienced and learned are carried forward in the themes of every discussion that you have. And that's what being a real expert is. This is why Derek, for more plates, more dates, love them. The first time I saw it was like, what's this guy, what's these guys' credentials?

The guy's credentials are, he's an act, he's what, he's an actual expert. A true intellectual and a true expert practitioner. understand something at every level of granularity. And Derek is a really good example. Great example of like sufficient, necessary but not sufficient, given that he's outside of academia. Like he's not doing. The academics are now going to him.

Watch Peter Attia, who's a physician trained at Stanford and Johns Hopkins, asking Derek about hormone. And like holding each other on a rope. Yeah, and Peter's a super smart guy, and he has his expertise. And so what you saw there was people who have. have different stacks of principles connecting. It's so cool. Right.

All right. I got to ask you this. You mentioned protein, kind of the, or at least it's... Vitamin D, creatine, vitamin D, protein, I think it's going to be magnesium. But what about diet? And if I was to put my little bet down from what I'm... The Whispers, as Rick Rubin would say, that I'm hearing, fiber, I think, like the push toward fiber, because it's kind of been the forgotten element of diet.

I think that that... I'm beginning to hear an awful lot more about that. I think in a nuanced way, I hope, because here's the deal. I had Mike Snyder, our former chair, or maybe still current chair of genetics at Stanford. He talked about blood sugar regulation, incredibly smart guys,

really into biomarkers. And he's almost 80. You got to look at it. He looks like he's like 55. Incredible, incredible health. And he and I were discussing that fiber, certain forms of fiber cause inflammation in some people. people. Why a lot of people say they can't eat a lot of vegetables and this kind of thing.

Some fibers inflame the gut and body of certain people. Other fibers do the opposite. Justin Sondenberg and Christopher Gardner ran a study looking at low sugar fermented foods versus fiber effect on the gut microbiome. The outcome was very clear. Eating low sugar fermented foods decreases the so-called inflammatory. They call it as opposed genome, et cetera, proteome. Okay. So it reduces inflammation bodywide. So eat, Low-sugar fermented foods. Sourcrow, the brine, kimchi, beer doesn't quite count. Kefir.

What's that? Kefir, these sorts of things, yeah. So people can pick their favorite ones. I'm not a big kimchi fan, only because it's cut too coarse. If they would shred it, I would like it, but it's like the, I have a hard time chewing it. Dude, cafe is the hack for this. Kefier is great. I love the full fat Bulgarian yogurt.

Listen, I love Greek food, but Bulgarian yogurt makes Greek yogurt. You're a Bulgarian supremacist when it comes to the yogurt world. Careful, you call me a Bulgarian supremacist. The Bulgarian people seem like very nice, people have known a few. But the point was that low-sugar fermented foods reduce inflammation. They support the gut microbiome in a major way. The fiber group was divided. Some people who intentionally ingested more fiber had reduced so-called inflammatory markers

inflammation, and they looked at a lot of markers. The other half had greatly increased inflammation. This is why I think people like Paul Saladino and, forgive me, what was the original carnivore MD? Big guy. Forgive me, oh, darn it. He's been on Rogan. He's, he's big, Jack, dude.

Fuck, he could be anybody. He's just always eating a steak. Okay. Oh, forgive me. Fuck, okay. Okay, anyway, shout out to him. I think, I think, Sean Baker, Dr. Sean Baker. Will they talk about vegetables causing inflammation, right?

I think some people do experience inflammation from vegetables. I think so I think fiber is going to make a big comeback but we're going to have to discern between what and Mike Snyder really understands this best certain types of fiber are going to help people and harm others harm in the gentle sense you know increase inflammation which could be severe for some people autoimmune conditions etc other forms of fiber are going to be beneficial I don't think there are any I don't think there are any specific forms of fiber that everyone is going to tolerate well so this This is going to be an issue if fiber is the next thing. I do think fiber is critical. I eat sourcrow every day. I drink the brine off the sauerkraut. I actually drink the brine, then I put water back in it, add some salt, put it back in the fridge because I just like that after I go for a run or work out.

It's just delicious, right? It's delicious. And also, if you go buy these fermented brines as a product, they're outrageously expensive. And you're supposed to have like this much. Okay? I'm a grown man. I'm not going to have this much of anything, okay? Certainly not food or drink.

Certainly not. I'm not like a thimbles full. of brine it's like no i want to drink the whole thing like come on okay so you know and it it greatly supports the gut and the healthy bacteria thrive in that environment so yes i think this is the way it's going to go if i were to say okay like what other things um you know melaton we didn't talk about melatonin which i'm not a huge fan of as you know but melatonin had a run a long time ago it's like a hormone in a supplement form and people are just downing this stuff it's amazing it ever broke through and you can get 50 milligram 20 milligrams it's crazy crazy and it's crazy and it's crazy and it's

And people will fight me all day on this and I'll fight right back until they quit because they're amazing animal data showing that it can suppress the hypothalamic gonad axis. Doesn't it delay puberty in adolescence? Yes. And it's also true that there's melatonin in all the cells of your body that are not that are not suppressed by light, by rather stimulated by light axes and antioxidant. You don't want to be taking large amounts of melatonin in supplement form, maybe a tiny bit every once in a while. I was told a little recently that

after a flight, a five milligram dose of melatonin was good. And I was like, well, yeah, it's fucking tons because one milligram is like pretty much bottom of the U of effectiveness, right? And then you get over into more like fuckery going on. And I'm like five milligrams, why? And

that was the reason. Oh, well, you've been exposed when you're flying typically, you've been in a little bit of a dangerous environment, inflammation, like antioxidant. I'm like, is melatonin like the tip of the spear of the antioxidant world i mean it's it's a player i mean as long as we're on this i think that something that's not a supplement but there's likely going to and hopefully going to be in the main frame of discussion is that it's clear that long wavelength

light red light from sunlight infrared near infrared light is beneficial for us right it's low energy but it can pass into our body it does support mitochondrial health it so charges the mitochondria I recently learned that the water surrounding the mitochondria actually absorbed the red light, the same way the ocean absorbs red light, and that's why the ocean appears blue reflects blue. Well, like little mini oceans. Yeah, yeah. And you know, the mitochondria were essentially got in, their back, originated as bacteria that got into eukaryotic cells. No way.

Yeah, they have their own little genome. Yeah, they were initially not part of us, some distant version of us. I got to interject here, just hold, like, keep that in your mind. Yeah. Do you know how you inherit mitochondria? through mom. Yeah. Yeah.

She's the monocry. How fucking wild is that? Well, you want to know what? You like the, you seem to, um, I can, sex differences. To be, you seem to like sex differences and you're hyper focused on mating and reproduction. So let me, um, you should have kids, man. I can't wait.

I'm ready. Kids are, well, you know the, two things. One, one of the, the only challenges I have with having you as a friend is that I have to constantly, uh, tell women in my direct messages that I'm not going to relay messages to you. Coming here today, I had several people. anyway a lot of women try to get to you through me um okay that the second thing is in terms of sex differences what were we talking about here uh that uh your fucking mitochondria comes yes sorry different different brain circuit turned on there um there's something now happening in england

okay this has been approved for mitochondrial diseases so there are people who have mitochondrial diseases and they want to have children, right? And so they, you know, they don't want to pass along these mitochondrial diseases. The, when the egg is fertilized, the sort of splitting of the egg into, you know, multiple cell types that forms the blastocysts, which just means balls of, a ball of cells, which is the early embryo, et cetera, the mitochondrial DNA are intensely important for the physical pulling apart, the spindles and things that pull those apart. They come from mom.

Okay. So it's actually been solved that you can do three-parent IVF. to bypass no fucking ways but this is now being done so think about it as women age right

and their ovarian reserve declines right so does the quote unquote quality of the eggs we talk about quality of spurn because this is definitely plays a role in terms of what it called

day three crashes you know when the embryo doesn't even become a blastocystice it doesn't get past day three that's typically attributed to the sperm but a lot of the process is coming from the spindle and therefore the mitochondrial

DNA of mom So there's now a process where you get two parents. And let's say the woman has, let's say she has a mitochondrial issue, genetic issue, she doesn't want to pass on. Or let's say that she's, you know, in her late 40s or early 50s or maybe even mid 50s, they can take eggs, presumably she still makes eggs, take the nuclear DNA, put it into the essentially an egg that's had its nuclear DNA taken out, but maintains its mitochondrial DNA. and then fertilize with the milk, obviously with the sperm from the father. You end up with a child that has the nuclear DNA of the intended mom and has essentially surrogate mitochondrial DNA in the cytoplas. Dude, this is so fucking cool.

That's actually being done, okay? That was being done actually fairly often in, from what I understand it, in Ukraine prior to the war. There were people in the United States traveling there. It's not legal here. They do it. I believe in some places in the Middle East, in Mexico. and certainly in England for mitochondrial disease. So this has been done.

It works, but it brings up all sorts of interesting ethical considerations. Who is this child? Well, the child has the nuclear DNA of one mom and the mitochondrial DNA of a different mom. This is so sick. Yeah. Yeah, I only learned about the mitochondrial only comes from mum thing like three months ago, and I kind of not really being able to stop thinking about it. The reason is when you look at somebody, and I'm going to use Kanye West as my example for this.

I didn't think I was going to go there. You really want this podcast flag. We might as well invite Lex and Kanye in a lot of conversation. Sit down, Lex. What I think about, and this, I total, like, the most bro signs that we've done today is if you have a person who has the mitochondrial function of a fucking V12 engine in a garage, mitochondrial function of a V12 engine, but the psychological chassis of a Honda Civic, you have this sort of crazy out there energy, but you don't necessarily have the handling to be able to sort of direct it.

You described a lot of teenagers and early 20s males. Well, yeah, of course. Especially where I went to school in Santa Barbara. Yeah, with the testosterone pumping. But I just thought about that when you go, okay, well, you've got this combining of psychological profile,

but this almost uniheritability when it comes to mitochondria. Apparently it's like 99. Something percent is that. And I don't know if the other percent comes from the father or if it's like some weird like me too. I don't understand. What was it? Mito, something. I did a mitochondrial test. So I've sent off a bunch of cheek swabs, which will be cool. I'll get to see those when I come back home. Anyway, I just thought about mum could be like this powerhouse or the opposite. You could have quite a low mitochondria function. However that presents energy disposition, all the rest of it. But kind of the psychological predisposition of somebody that's like a fucking hard charging go.

get a lots of conscientious, highly disagreeable, low politeness, all this stuff. I thought I just thought it was real interesting about how those combine. Well, you're still going to get it, absolutely, you're still going to get genomic DNA from mom, right? You know, those 23 chromosomes. I mean,

you're going to get genomic DNA from mom and from dad. What's really a mind bent, no pun intended, is there's a woman whose laboratory is at Harvard named Catherine Dulac, who's a luminary in the field of neuroscience, who did some beautiful Beautiful experiments showing that different brain areas

are genetically identical to mom or to dad, even in you and me. You have entire brain areas that are 100% the genes from dad. It's not, it's a myth that every cell is a 50-50 mix of genes from all. Wow. Independent of the mitochondrial DNA piece, right? We're talking about genomic DNA.

In fact, they did some marking studies and you could actually, well, you see this two ways. You can do it if you mark the cells the cells and you know blue ones are mom and you know etc we do those just the studies the more convincing studies of course are where you have genes that are passed specifically through the y chromosome right and you can actually either postmortem or in terms of the requirements of having a gene present in a given brain structure you can realize that you have brains where a given brain area carries the disease mutation and another brain area does

And even though it all came through dad on the Y chromosome, it should be everywhere. But it's not because there you have some structures that are essentially purely X-X. There's these little territories, domains. And they correspond to entire brain structures that drive, of all things, hypothalamic fat function. There's a condition of hyperphagia of like very obese kids. They can't stop eating. This kind of thing comes through. I forget if it's mom or dad.

So these things show up in the human genetics. I mean, human genetics is often. more complicated than we think about it in terms of Mendelian genetics. You can get hypomorphs where you have a kind of reduced gene expression as opposed to just lacking a gene completely. This exists. And we can talk about this for hours. But so when people say, see an attribute and they say, oh, you clearly got that from your mom or from your dad. That's actually good, could be true, right? They're much more like their dad in certain ways. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And much like, more like their mom in certain ways based, because we're never going to know, but their brain is entirely. And then actually

separate it out. Yeah. Oh, dude. Very well. could be. It's going to be fun when your kids play with my kids and we can, you know, Lex, that's you. Well, Lex and I have this, well, we're not going to have kids together. I don't want to give people the wrong impression. What I was referring to is the fact that Lex and I always have this discussion about timing, uh, the, the delivery of our independently generated kids. Um, so that they can grow up to. Well, he wants my, he wants, he wants his kids to beat up my kids in jujitsu. Okay. I, I have more a theory about, um, enrichment of, uh, sort of the engineering, uh, offspring versus the neuroscience. You're much more pro-social than him. He's very

competitive in this regardless. Yeah. I, I mean, I'm competitive in certain things, but, but mostly my, try to compensate for Lex. My interests are so, you are so like, uh, sometimes I don't really find many people looking at my collection of interests in an overlapping way. I'm going to beat him at octopus, octopus training or whatever it is. Well, the octopus raising community is a little, people are a little guarded but um so so as a as a it's a whole thing man it's a whole different podcast a whole thing but i did want to ask you something i want to make sure so you put out this video about your health journey or i guess it's your sickness journey and seek in search of it you seem really good um can i wager a hypothesis because i've experienced this myself at one point do you think

that at some point, sounds like I'm leading the witness, but that it's possible to, like, that in pursuit of recovering one's health that along the way, because I've done this, you do something or take something that layers in another health thing that makes the, like, direction and increasingly confusing. Like, I took this on the suggestion of some conventional doc recently, I decided to try and knock down my APOB a bit. It's a little high.

And it created a whole set of cascade of ballbladder. issues for a couple days. I stopped taking it. I feel fine again. And I probably don't need to take it in the first place. So I believe medications work. I think they can be very useful. I also think that some of them work so well that they can drive the system in directions we don't want to go. And so when I hear about these blood cleansing methods or I hear, you know, I worry it as your friend, I worry a little bit that, listen, I don't want you to struggle with the symptoms of Lyme's, but I do worry a little bit because these things are very, really extreme. Yeah, okay. So the health documentary that we put out, which is, you know,

episode one, the reason that I did that was I'd assumed at the start of last year, the day that I got the diagnosis, I knew that something was up, I knew that I was tied all the time, I knew that I wasn't recovered no matter how long I slept, I knew that I had brain fog and I knew that my mood was low. I'm like, you know, maybe this is just getting older, maybe something, whatever. And the day that I started filming with my videographer was the day that I got a, hey, we've done an EKO test on your stool, and it turns out that there's a line. We don't know if it's IGG or IGN. We don't know how prevalent it is when you got it. Don't know if it's Borreella, Babesia. Because it could have been way back when. You got to take bite and some animals. It almost certainly was vestigial.

All of the stuff, all of the basic shit that wasn't exciting, I did. Right. I did. Doxycycline. Yeah, doxycycline, minor cycling, like all of the usual treatments. This was not me jumping straight to going to Tijuana to have an intrajugular line put in and me live in a hospital. It wasn't me going straight to Vienna to get a fucking hypothermia treatment like teaser about what the next episode is. It wasn't me going straight to those. I'd gone through all of the standard. It's Gabrielle Lyon that's looking after me. It's her team. And she is as like Western by the book as you're going to get. She's just a bit more like integrative than most people would be. So we're trying to make changes to diet. And we're trying to make changes to,

well, my training had to get backed off from like 10 out of 10 to 6 out of 10 for a while. And, oh, well, maybe we need to do. And then I had a fucking, um, a migraine with aura that I thought was a stroke. I thought it was a stroke. So have you ever had a migraine with aura? No. Okay. You know what they are? It's like a ring. So some people get it visually, but other people get it olfactory. And I get it olfactory. So I'm on an assault bike doing Norwegian I'm four by four, fucking Rhonda Patrick, and my heart rate's coming back down. It's been a 165, 165, something like that, and it's coming back down, and like, it was as if someone shoved a piece of burning toast under my nose.

Like, that was all I could smell. That worries me because normally when somebody gets the sort of phantom smell of burning toast, we worry about temporal lobe seizures and strokes, and strokes. That's why I thought, I'm like, this is how I die. I die on an assault bike in on it gym, Austin, Texas. kind of bad. This is how I fucking got. Yeah,

but I was doing normal as you four by four. I mean, it's not super badass, but it's in the right direction. Is that how I get, I get taken out? At least you weren't just like on social media.

That's true. So anyway, I immediately go and get a CT scan. No, it's not. I go in to get a, what is it, a transient ischemic attack,

TIA. Yeah, I'm like, we go and do another one with contrast. So now I've got fucking gadolinium in me and I'm going to have to like

detox the galanium. They're getting people creatine after TIAs now. It doesn't surprise me. It's neuroprotective. Anyway, so like, the amount of shit that wasn't included in that vlog that I went through, like, hundreds of sauna sessions with colostyramine or charcoal, like, charcoal body wash as a binder to try and, like, get the mold out of me.

So what, you had mold and lime? Oh, the litany of things, mold. I mean, I saw that in the video, but the mold was confirmed. Mold was through the roof. I've done, who does Total Tox? Can I remember who does the test? Anybody that's got it, Total Tox is kind of the gold standard. to test. We're going to need to keylate our metals after being in this barrage. That's true.

Smells like bumper in here. Heavy metals were in there, BPAs were in there. But I mean, the problem is, and I said this in the dark, if you do a huge battery of tests, loads of shit's going to come back and be out of whack. But if you don't feel bad, it doesn't matter. Yeah, if you have antibodies to chocolate or strawberries, you probably develop those as a kid. And I love dark chocolate and strawberries, but I'm sure I make antibodies to them. That doesn't mean I have a food allergy. Yeah. So you, if you do a lot of tests, you know, if you do a lot of stuff's going to come back. And what you're doing is you're basically like a guess who Sherlock Holmes in your way through a list of potential suspects for why you don't feel good.

And one of the problems that I found and have found since the doc came out, even though lots of people, especially people from like the M-E-CFS community, chronic fatigue syndrome stuff, had tinnitus for a long while, like that community was like, fuck, like somebody is talking about this and they're saying it's kind of a silent like suffering that nobody really appreciates. And this was met, at least in large part, by people going, Chris looks fine, this is all psychosomatic, it's in his head, it's because he's pushing himself too hard, it's because of blah, blah, blah. That makes it worse, right? And I'm certainly not suggesting that. I mean, I think you're doing an important public health service

by talking about these things. You know, I think I'm hearing more and more lately from people, young men who took drugs to avoid hair loss, post-finasteride syndrome. You know, the medical community, the standard medical community thinks it's nonsense. But you talk to these guys that are having serious and at least till now permanent.

Hopefully some of this stuff can be reversed. there's sexual health issues, psychological issues. I mean, it's cratered the lives of a lot of young guys. And there's actually a scientist out at a scientist physician out in Florida who I may end up posting on the podcast. There needs to be more discussion about these things. I always thought that you could kill Lyme with high dose or just long last, long duration doxycycline treatment. And you found it helped or didn't help? Yeah, it's, it helped.

But there's just when you start to get deep into the. things called fish tests you do a fish test for it um and i'm working with like doctors like fluorescent in situ hybridization yeah there's this uh dr carston who is german guy who's like the number one on the planet mac cook out of uh san francisco san jose is the guy that's leading this like more the name sounds forward thinking he does like he does a lot of stuff forward thinking sports medicine doc who's now doing peptide stuff and um just not quite right and not quite fixed all of that is to be said, I got inverse pretty privilege, which is you look fine on the outside, you're in good condition, you're a young dude that seems to still be performing at an okay level. But it's kind of the same as saying to Usain Bolt, oh, you ran a sub 10, you must be great. It's like, yeah, but I should be running like 954s or nine fives and I know where I'm supposed to be at and I know where I want to be at. And I don't want to like surrender to entropy in this way and just accept a lower standard of living for myself. And that was the the main thing I wanted to people to take away was like there are so many people who don't have

the inclination, the time or the resources like I do to be able to text you or a tear or fucking Ronda or whoever I want or MacCock or fly to take time off to go to Mexico do all of this bullshit that are just like, this is life now. This is my life now. Yeah, I'm just a bit more forgetful. I don't think I used to be that forgetful. Yeah, I fall asleep at 8 p.m. I don't think I used to fall asleep at 8 p.m. Yeah, like my mood's a little bit low, but maybe it's just because of, and it's explained away and explained away and explained away by lifestyle, environment, psychological disposition, aging, something. And you're like, oh no, there are chronic underlying infections that you've got. And to treat them is so fucking complex and so expensive. But the

mold was the COVID and mold were the two things that really fucking pushed me over the edge. And then when you get into autoimmune, all you need for autoimmune is genetic predisposition, permeable gut lining, and environmental stressor. And if you live in a house with mold for two years. Like, I challenge anybody that's got those two to do the third and not get fucked by it. Is it true that that mold is a prominent issue in Austin? I hear this. It's one of the highest, Texas is one of the highest states in the country. Is it the, you know, hot, humid days? Subtropical. And for some reason, this country decides, your country, decides that it's going to build houses out of wood. It's an organic material.

But while it's being built out of wood, it's exposed to the elements. So it gets wet and hot, wet and hot and wet and hot. And now the skeleton of the thing that you live in has been wet and hot and now it gets covered in cladding while it's been wet and hot. And sometimes it's wet as it gets covered in cladding. Oh, yeah. I mean, home design is something I think a lot about from the lighting perspective. We didn't get into it. But like, you know, we hear so much about the benefits of red light. But, you know, long wavelength light can really offset some of the toxicity of blue light. It's not just about sleep. But going back to what you were just describing, do me a favor. I'd love for you to talk to David Faganbaum,

who cured his own Castleman's through an intelligent approach of taking these already approved drugs to treat Castleman's. I mean, he cured himself. He's a live of 11 years now. He's got kids. He's married with kids. He was going to die, like dead. But he has this not-for-profit, every cure where they use AI and hardcore scientific methods, basically. I mean, not to sound loose about what exactly they do, but he's a serious scientist and physician to try and decode different diseases and try different existing drugs to cure them. So I think it'd be worth talking to him. He's very open-minded and he understands the medical profession and he understands that if the solution hasn't been handed to you yet, it's because people aren't aware of it,

but it's very likely that it does exist. So I think it'd be a good conversation for you. I like it. I mean, look, if I was to track my journey, journey. We were here in this location, although we were at a different angle, about 14 months ago or so, I think. And just after that, September of last year and sort of spring of this year, where the two worst times for health, brain was so slippery. I was so forgetful. It was insane. It was like trying to think through mud. I love the agility of my own thoughts. And the fact that that was taken from me through, you know, no fault of my own. I'm fucking hell. Oh, God, you were to. too hard charging. I focus on sleep. I'm in bed for like at least... Yeah, you're a vigorous guy. I don't buy the like you're just pushing too hard. I mean, there are ways in which people push too hard, but you're... Like you said, you have a 12-cylinder engine that's you. You built yourself to that. And you came into the world, presumably with some forward center of mass. I feel I'm feeling like

you were born, started nursing, finished nursing, and got into the world and started doing stuff. Yeah. So, but that period, the last time that we were here, you can even go back and watch the vlog from after we've recorded and I think I finish up with Eric and I'm outside and I'm like half asleep falling asleep on this couch and uh it was if if I two and a half years ago were a 10 if that was Chris at where he's supposed to be 14 months ago I was at a four or a five and then the start of this year and for much of the start of this year I was like a three or a four I would say up to now, I swing between seven and an eight. And the fact that I was able to do the live shows in New York and Toronto last week and I've got L.A. coming up and then Boston, Denver,

Boston, Chicago, Nashville. And, like, it feels like this color back in the world because it felt very gray scale for a long time. And it was, I say it in the dark, but there was a day when I forgot how to tie my shoes. Like, I looked down at my feet and there were laces that were undone. And I didn't know the. combination to tie my laces in to be able to get them to be in a bow anymore and I'm like I've gone from that which was like a three out of 10 to now I feel okay and there's some color in the world and I can have fun with my friends and I can fucking send it like and I can stay out after 11 o'clock without fearing that the next day is going to be ruined not drinking I'm 37 should I be

should I be treating myself with that much fucking fragility no I don't think so I mean it's I mean it's almost like you're describing kind of having a sort of dementia for a while. It felt like, have you ever taken an anti-colonergic? No. So I took one, this is funny, during- I like to stimulate the colonergic system. Well, you should do, but if you have, I'm not a big nicotine guy, but every once in a while. If you have overactive bladder syndrome, which I and a lot of men developed during COVID, because we were right next to our bathroom and we had nothing else to do, so we were drinking fluid and going to the bathroom, and drinking fluid and going to the bathroom. And I was like, I found myself urinating more frequently when I didn't

need to. And I'm like, prostate problem. Like, this is, going to the doctor, I tell him, and he laughs. It's in the UK in like 2020. He laughs. I was like, is this funny to you or what? And he was like, you would not believe how many men I've seen over the last couple of months that have come in with this problem. My business partner at the time in the nightclub stuff, Darren comes around. We have a meeting. It's the first meeting we've had in ages after I ruptured my Achilles. So my foot's up on this thing. And while we're having this meeting, he drinks half a glass of water. and it's still in the back of my mind, right, because I've just gone to see my doctor that week.

During the meeting, an hour and a half, you go to the bathroom three times. I'm like, mate, are you finding yourself urinating more frequently than usual? It's not just from sitting too much because certainly during the pandemic, there was a lot of sitting. I just standing desk.

Anyway, you've detrained the little muscle in between the bladder and the urethro to be like the sensitivity that you're supposed to be at, which is a fucking podcaster, right? is one of the primary things you need to develop beyond your working memory is your bladder. If you're going to be a podcaster or a touring musician, you got to learn how to, you got to, you learn how to hold your piss.

So one of the things that they give you is an anticholinergic, which gets that little sense of thing. Yeah, but then you probably feel like you're floating. It's horrible. That's what they used to give, I mean, this was the whole thing of witches, you know, like to give them the, they would take it to give themselves the sensation of flying. This taps into the muscarinic colonergic system, different than the nicotine colonergic system. So nicotinic

colonelgic system, it's the stuff of muscle movement and contraction and focus and all the reason people take nicotine. The muscarinic stuff is what you took. Muscarinic agonists are going to give you a sensation that you're floating. It's going to make your people. It's about this big, but you're relaxed. Normally, if your pupils are big, you're more alert. You're going to feel dissociated. This was actually recreational witch drug use. Dude, it fucking sucks. You can't remember shit. Anyway, it felt like, it felt like that. I remember I was talking to Michaela Peterson at the time, and I was like, I'm being forgetful and I've got this thing. And obviously she was experienced from dealing with her dad. And she was like, taking any new medications recently?

And I was like, yeah, like I've taken 10 milligrams a day of this anticholone. She was like, rings me immediately. She's like, stop taking that stuff right now. Prescription drugs work very well to hit the mechanisms they're supposed to hit, which is why they often. They often, listen, some of them are great. Some of them create real problems. I mean, I'm, yeah, oh, man. Anyway.

So it sounds like things were just getting layered in and layered in. And you're fighting through this stuff. And yeah, you're right. As you try to treat one thing, maybe something else comes up. Like if there was H. Pylori, Candida, Cbo, leaky. Did the H. Pylori treatment? Yeah. That's like four different antibiotics.

Correct. Ruthless. All timed with different sequence, sequence, sequence, sequence, sequence. And you're a hard driving guy. So the thing about autoimmune stuff is like a lot of men, women, too. But a lot of men who tell me like, oh, I'm like, got this weird skin thing are these like you know and they freak out it's because if you're the kind of person who can push and not get sick too often oftentimes it means that your immune system can really ramp up

in parallel with your kind of levels of drive and activity these the i don't get sick people who always end up getting sick sooner later but that just push push push push push you get high levels of interleukins and things that you end up you know essentially deploying so so much cortisol but also anti-inflammatory molecules it's not just cortisol that you can start you know getting skin conditions because your immune systems attack from that people get lichen planus you really want to get scared look up lichen planus is some scary photos like a moss well they're like um you're right but it's it's an autoimmune condition where the immune system because of stress in it excessively long days etc excessive caffeine push push people will get um it's

almost like it looks like bruising um on the wrists they can get them on their genitals on the tops of their feet people get very very scared and it's actually just they're pushing themselves too hard some relaxation look i think humans can tolerate a ton of stress provide they get enough sleep at night and sleep well let me give you this but what you're telling me is you you're looking down at your shoelaces you don't recognize them as shoelaces even this is how i know i'm too sleep deprived when i used to pull all nighters and i'd work on grants and papers really late i'd look at the word and i go that's misspelled that has to be misspelled i'm like it's time to go to sleep that was my i mean just to show you how unhealthy perhaps i was is that was my red line

When I, when the word the, look, like, I'm not sure if that's spelled correctly. I'm like, I'm sleep deprived. I think I'm going too far. But yeah, dude, I, I have come to believe that there is basically no such thing as being overworked on the underrested. And I was resting. I was going to bed. I mean, I can even show you my fucking whoop data and Andy's got it.

All the team have got it. Oh, man. I believe you. Dude, I was in bed. I'm not kidding. I was in bed from 7 p.m. till 7 a.m. for like weeks, months at a time.

I'm like, I'm dedicating so, and I'd wake up having been asleep for all this time, and I'm like, I'm so drained. And it's not, anyway, I'm now moving between, like if it's a really fucking bad one, like a six, up to a seven and sometimes up to an eight. And dude, when it's an eight, like today's probably a seven and a half.

I woke up this morning, I'm at the W in West Hollywood. I'm like surrounded, but I saw a homeless guy literally pissing into a wine bottle this morning. And I'm like, hey, what's going on? The sun's shining fucking shit. The sun's always shining. Go to a Dunkin' Donuts.

We have a serious homeless slash mental health slash addicted people. The world just felt like color. I'm like, fuck, this is so good. It's back in technical color. It honestly feels a little bit like I kind of got a second. It feels like I died a bit. It feels like me, who I am, kind of died. And now I've been so gentle with myself this year.

I've gone to bed early and I've restricted my diet and I haven't had any fun and I haven't really adventure and I've worked and I haven't got to do new stuff I've just tried to hold on I used to have this, I still do this really long end of your review I had two goals for this year

usually it'd be a light, meditation practice, training, muscle game we'd straight all this stuff two goals for this year fix my health, don't let the show drop that was it. If I got to the end of the year and I hadn't fucked the show

and my health was fixed I'm like that would be and as I come into land you know we've got a few months left in the year I'm like I think might just sort of bring this into land there so it's been a real it's been a real sort of fucking adventure that I wouldn't wish on anybody especially the hopelessness having hope expectation that being dashed that really that really sucks like that's the hardest part that you think that things are going to change or be improved and then they don't and then

you have to deal with the expectation and then the disappointment and the disappointment was the worst thing. But if nothing else, in kind of, Brian Johnson's on the show later this week, Brian, very few people want to be Brian, but appreciate some of the things that he's learned by the stuff that he's done. I'm like, dude, if I can tell you 20 different modalities that I think didn't move the needle and two that did, at least there's a bit of silver lining on the fact, and now obviously I'm hopefully on the trajectory of being back to being better. So it seems like, sounds like it. I'm being hopeful. It feels like that to me.

And, you know, I did, to sort of round it out, I did Pierce Morgan show a couple of weeks ago, and Michaela came on and was talking about Dad, and Jordan's having a really fucking rough time. I was going to ask how he's doing. Super rough. Like, just not good. The answer is not good. And she finished up with, like, so we think it's because of mold, and we think it's maybe because of this, not immune. But then we also think that it might be because of demons.

And, like, that was what she left the conversation with. and then Pierce turns to me and is like, Chris, you're real. I think it's the work of the devil. And I'm like, why do I have to clean up this? Like, this is her claim. She just said, yes. Well, look, my point is, I understand why, because it feels so fucking cosmically unfair after a while

that you're like, this has to be a fucking curse. Like, this feels so much bigger and greater and more painful than it should be. I can only attribute this to like some karmic retrospect. that is owed to me for some past slight, some something, and that's when you start to ask yourself. And you're being excessively hard. I mean, whatever the reasons, let me, let me ask you a question. I mean, we're on a podcast, but in all sincerity, how can I and your other friends support you? And since we're doing this as a podcast, I'll also say, how can the people who listen support you? I mean, but really, I mean, do you want them, uh, I mean, I'll be praying.

for you. I'd decide that. Do you want people to pray for you? Do you want, um, they will be, but do you want people to send you suggestions? Do you want people to not send you? You know, oftentimes when somebody's struggling like my or anyone's impulses be like, I'm like, talk to Fagan mom, do this. Let me fix it. You know, we all want to do that. But, but I hear you, it's clear this is like, you know, what started as Lyme has, as, it's opening up all sorts of doors and cupboards and stuff in there and I mean I as your friend I caution you against exploring whether or not you did something in a past life or did I think your um my understanding of you is that you're sufficiently in touch with your mistakes and your good choices overly in touch with you no no I don't think

overly I think you you're a you're a introspective person and and flagellating yourself is certainly not going to help but um yeah how can um how can I support you you do already my You know, I had a close run-in over this weekend, which we'll see whether or not that ends up surfacing, perhaps relevant to our conversation about what's going on with mainstream media and how they are garnering momentum by attaching themselves to industries and platforms that have momentum. Very interesting that it never happens before there's any status associated with trying to unearth something. You are, dude. like I really cherish our friendship like the fact that I can take your one text away from like giving me a fucking essay you even sent me this is to break the fourth wall how good of a friend you are you knew that I was like sad and worried this weekend so not only did you give me a ton of different bits of advice you then decided to peel off to give me like a miniature novel about a black ferret who repopulated an entire like female colony of ferrets and this entire he saved the species saved the and I'm like you're like Scarface you're going to save the species. I appreciate you. I appreciate all of this stuff that you do for me. That's it. I really do. I really cherish our friendship. Likewise. When does the book come out? People

want to know. September 2026. Let's fucking go, dude. 12 months later, we're going to be back here. I can't wait. We'd love to. Yeah, I delayed it to add some things, change some things, and do some illustrations. And I apologize in a real way for the delay, but I'll make it worth people's while and um thanks for the kind words i you're an amazing friend you know i mean i've been so fortunate to be part of this colleague set that we called you know podcasters and the more or less same vintage of podcasters although you got into it before me um i will be praying for you and i also will do everything i can in terms of my connections and resources in the medical and scientific community to try and figure out what's going on i do think you're on the on the recovery

slope now and um and i'll be praying that that continues and do anything to support you you i appreciate you man you're an equally if not more amazing friend how to you quantify these things right and um it's such a pleasure to be in the same field to call you a friend and you're going to beat this fucking thing no doubt thank you man until next time thank you very much for tuning in and congratulations for not being so tick-tock brained that you switched off part way through an episode uh if you enjoyed that, with Huberman, you will love this one with Rhonda Patrick. Go on. When I first started doing personal growth, I really wanted to read the best books, the most

impactful ones, the most entertaining ones, the ones that were the easiest to read and the most dense and interesting. But there wasn't a list of them. So I scoured and scoured and scoured and then gave up and just started reading on my own. And then I made a list of 100 of the best books that I've ever found. And you can get that for free. right now. So if you want to spend more time around great books that aren't going to completely kill your memory and your attention, just trying to get through a single page, go to Chriswillx.com slash books to get my list completely free of 100 books you should read before you die. That's chriswillx.com slash books.