Modern Wisdom - #128 - Benjamin Dennehy - The UK's Most Hated Sales Trainer

Episode Date: December 19, 2019

Benjamin Dennehy is a sales trainer. Being able to sell is a skill many people want. The ability to control your income by selling things for other people sounds like a pretty easy way to make money. So why do so many salespeople struggle to be effective? Benjamin identifies the key failures he sees on the sales floor, breaks down his best principles for a good selling framework, gives his thoughts on Grant Cardone vs Jordan Belfort and much more. Extra Stuff: Check out Benjamin's LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/benjamindennehy Jordan Belfort vs Grant Cardone - https://youtu.be/-Ls3KDa7PMY Mike & Benjamin React To Jordan vs Grant - https://youtu.be/0WynqwgqtzE Take a break from alcohol and upgrade your life - https://6monthssober.com/podcast Check out everything I recommend from books to products - https://www.amazon.co.uk/shop/modernwisdom - Get in touch. Join the discussion with me and other like minded listeners in the episode comments on the MW YouTube Channel or message me... Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/ModernWisdomPodcast Email: https://www.chriswillx.com/contact Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello friends, welcome back. Before I get into today's episode, I wanted to warn you that this is the final Thursday You will be getting new content for the next couple of weeks. It is Christmas after all and that means that I can't get hold of any podcast guests to come and speak to me apparently they've all got Lives or families are something to be doing. So yeah, Monday, next two Mondays, Christmas special coming up very soon though. Johnny and Yusef are joining me to go through our favorite life hacks, lessons and fails from 2019. And we'll be wearing new Christmas jumpers.

So that is a definite YouTuber. And yeah, onto today's episode, Benjamin Denny, also known as the UK's most hated sales trainer. Being honest, I thought it was pretty nice guy. I'll let you judge for yourself. In other news, if you need to buy someone a present at any point, but especially now, last minute, Christmas, yeah. If you're struggling for ideas, the modern wisdom Amazon Shopfront is linked in the show notes below, and it's got all of the life hacks that we've ever done that are available on Amazon. It's also got every book that I recommend, probably not every book.

Most books that I recommend are on there. So yeah, it might help save you from not having a present for someone, might give you a bit of inspiration. But for now, it's time to speak to the UK's most hated sales trainer. Please welcome the wise and trainer Benjamin Denny. Benjamin, welcome to the show. Thank you for having me, Chris. It's an honor to be here. Oh, no, we've got mutual friends and past guests, Mike, when it you've been spending about time with them recently, right? Yeah, yeah, I did. I was up there last week, actually filming another episode together, having fun.

Yeah, he's a good man. He's great. So why, why you hated, why are you the UK's most hated sales trainer? Why? I could ask that all the time. If I gave a speech on it last Thursday to a room full of businessmen, there's no international standard by which this is measured. Have you got a mug?

You must have a mug. I, no, not on me. I actually do have a mug. I, no, not on me. I actually do have a mug. Okay, you know that when someone gets like number one dad mug, and it's like, oh, you guys, there's the awarding body for the number one dad.

If I get it for you, seeing us, we were at mobile, and I'm in a hotel room for anyone that wonders why it looks all weird, because I'm up in London on business. And I'm like, yes. So product placement. Nice UK's most hated sales trainer mug Lincoln bio.

Yeah. So I created it. I created the character. I was given some advice by a man who created his own brand. Have you ever heard of Brad Burton? No. He's a UK's number one motivational speaker and I asked him how did he become number one and he said, read my book page 26. So I read his book page 26 and he said, I made it up. Undy got you by the book. And I thought, well, that's quite genius. And basically, the rule to really, I guess, I'm not not a marketer, never trained and never studied it, but it's not hard to realize that the easiest way to get known is to create a message and just keep hammering it. Like, let's get Brexit done. That was a classic, you know, or take

back control. Simple message, just push it out over and over again. So I created the UK's most hated sales trainer by, first of all, what did nobody want to be? And I looked at LinkedIn and everyone's number one, the best leader, professional guru Jedi, all South A grandizing BS. Why thought, what does no one want to be? No one wants to be hated. And so I thought, well, go, go with the UK's vote. And then I thought it makes no sense. And I thought, but that's what makes it genius. It makes no, why would you be hated? Mm-hmm.

And then it gave me carte blanche to just be myself, which is naturally quite blunt and direct. So that worked well. And the weirdest thing was standing up in a meeting and introducing myself. I am unique. The UK's vote was hated. So if people would look at you and say, And the weirdest thing was standing up in a meeting and introducing myself. I am. The UK's most hated set.

If people would look at you and say, what the hell is this guy? What? Why are you hated? Is that no reason I just, you know, just, yeah. It's open to you. It's definitely an open loop. But it's grown into something quite,

what, bigger than I thought it would get. And people constantly say it's a great brand. It's amazing what you've come up with. It's just brilliant. How did you think of it? And it literally is. I just create a space and own it. I like it. What are niching down something that a lot of people in business will get advised to do, right? And I mean, if you create your own market, you are by virtue. You are the market leader. I think back to Mike's, the UK's number one demotivational speaker. Yeah, I mean, who possibly could come into my world and say, no, I'm more hated.

Yeah, exactly. You think you're hated. No, I'm more hated. It's not a competition, you know. That's great. So before we get into it, I know that this is what you spoke about with Mike, and if Mike puts that episode up before this one goes, the link to the particular episode I'm talking about will be in the show notes below for anyone who's interested. But Wolf of Wall Street, real Wolf of Wall Street, John Belfort and Grant Cardone did a podcast together about, is actually three months ago now. I don't know how it slipped through my little web of internet stuff, but for anyone who hasn't seen it, well, actually, you've seen it, right?

I mean, Mike Winnett did a goggle box, and we filmed us watching it and commenting on it. We didn't watch the whole thing, so I must have watched maybe a third of it, but what I saw it was an interesting dynamic. How would you describe it for people who haven't heard it? It's two very, I'd say, ego men put together in a room. I was obviously Jordan has set this up, so you just notice in the camera ring and the lighting, he looks much better. You know, it's all rigged from the start against Paul Grant. I grant is on the back foot, I would say throughout most of the interview. And I think largely because when you actually

ask him specific questions, he can never give an actual answer. He's a lot like a politician. You know, there's no substance behind what he's saying. And he gets caught out very, very easily. And obviously Jordan is doing this on purpose. And Jordan's obviously a smart guy. And so he's just setting the guy up to look stupid. And I think that was a whole point behind of the Jordan. I think so as well.

I mean, I say for the people who haven't seen it, Jordan Belfort is verbally, incredibly articulate and very agile. And he's a quick thinker, whereas Grant appears to have a party line, he does sound like a politician. He's got that. This is what he said before. And every so often, it looks like it looks like Jordan Belfort's skipping down the road and Grant every so often trips over his, it looks like John Belford's skipping down the road and Grant every so often trips over his own feet and finds something he can rely on to say and then keeps on drilling that.

And you are right, I mean, in every internet review of that exchange, Grant comes out as a real, sort of a real Charlotte and I think, a real bad guy. Because he's used to, I think, I think Mike Winner refers to him as a studio salesman, as in he's a showman, and he gets up and he's used to talking to audiences, and when you're in an audience that can't ask questions back or challenge you and they just absorb what you're saying.

Remove that into the real world with a guy that knows what he's talking about, and it's quite true to any just far as questions at. You just like Andrew Neal does with the politicians here in England when, you know, he rips your part because they don't have any specific detail or, you know, and that's what happened to him. When you're on stage, you're always going to be in authority, right? Mm. Exactly. But when you're a juicer, just you and a guy that knows more about you and has

got the question, yeah, it's tough. Jordan did it on, but he set them up. It was a bit cruel, but a little bit. Yeah. And then there's been some after beef and stuff like that. And during the middle of it, Grant Cardone's saying like we should do a MMA fight. Charity fight. Yeah, you can see as he goes getting brews and it's such like alpha posturing yeah I really anyway for the people that are more interested link will be to that podcast plus when it finally goes up yours and Mike's goggal box episode which I can't wait for that will be linked in the show not to blow so you should totally go check it out once you've finished listening to this so we're talking about sales today right that's the

currency that you traffic in the sludge in the the mud, and the feces, and the blood and all that, and a bails and stuff. So let's start absolute basics. What makes a good sales person? It's like what makes anybody a professional, and a professional is someone who's mastered the basics, has consistent habit, behavior, and belief. So it's all the unsexy stuff, actually. A golfer, Tiger Woods is good because he probably had some natural aptitude. No, and that's not fault that. But, he spent his life practicing how to make every swing work,

getting in the right mindset. Every stroke is planned, prepared, choreographed, mapped out. He knows what's going on. And every shot, he's in, he's present. He's not thinking about the last shot. He's not thinking about the next shot. He's in total control. That is a professional, just like a top lawyer or a top surgeon. They're

in total control. And they've done that cut a thousand times. I've asked that question a thousand times. And they just know how, when and where to deliver it and where to cut. And so it looks like you've got an amazing talent. So yeah, I do. But how many times I've done this? And that is it. It's learning to follow a process and get good at it. That's all I got good at doing. I just read books and started doing stuff that people said you should do to get good at it, rather than just read them like most people do and then stick it on your shelf and

take, you just need to think better. All right, I'll be more positive today. That'll make me ranch. It's Bollocks. Difficult to repeat, difficult to scale those things. What are those characteristics? What are the strategies or the particular approaches that someone should have? They've got approach to sales, as you've said. What are the things they should be drilling every day? Well, prospecting. Every business, syncs or swims on your ability to generate leads. And I hate the word lead, but basically I want to talk to decision makers in my target market

that may or may not have problems I can fix. Now I don't know if they have problems I can fix until I phone them and ask them. Now, I've chosen them because statistically, they fall into a category of person that should. Doesn't mean they will. So my job is to consistently be speaking to people that may need what I have, diagnosing if they do. And if they do, we figure out how we move forwards

or we figure out they do need me, but they can't afford me or we figure out they do need me, but they can't make a decision or the decisions not there. So it's all about prospecting. And prospecting bizarrely isn't selling. It's a different word prospecting. It's a skill set in and of itself. Getting in front of people is a skill. Then once you're there, you begin the sales process. And to me, selling is all about disqualifying, not qualifying. It's the exact opposite.

And why do I say that? Or put it this way, there are more reasons for a person not to work with me than there are to work with me. So there's only a couple of reasons to work with you, but there's an entire universe of reasons to take. Exactly. So I'm going to figure out all the reasons why you can't work with me, and have you argue with me over why I'm wrong,

and that's not a reason why we can't. And when I go through that process, it's completely reverse from what most sales people used to do at works because the prospect does all the work. They're the ones arguing with me that no, no, no, no, no, we don't want to try outsourcing our prospecting. We don't want to hire new people. We don't want to fire people. We don't want to increase our prices. They rule out all the alternatives. And then what's left is me. your product, my product and me. So, yep, there are many ways to fix a sales problem. You don't need a sales trainer.

Put your prices up. It's easy. You know, a salesman can't sell at that level. Right, so you can't put your prices up. Fire crappy salesman, who would it be? We're those people You said oh there are many alternatives and my job is to get them to rule out all of them So what's with you?

is me And some people drop out on the way I tell people I'm the nuclear option I'm the last person you should get in You're the final button you got to have both the keys, turn them at the same time, presidential order. If you're not ready to turn your key, don't get me in. I can imagine when you go onto a sales floor, let's say that a company does decide to bring you in. What's the atmosphere like? Because again, I've spent my total career of being an adult. I've spent about nine months in sales for a particular insurance company doing outbound warm sales. But during

that time, even my small exposure there, a lot of posturing, a lot of like, sort of the grand cardons of this world, right? The alpha male go get it environment. So what happens when you step in and you start saying, well, I mean, what do you say to people? The first time I walk into a building, I get this look of disdain. People see me and I mean, I want 42, slightly overweight. I've long here, I wear a cap, I wear braces, I look a bit of a moron and I walk in and I get this look and I get this look all the time. Is this looking what? This guy.

I never. And when I see that inside my head I think, got you. And so I'm used to people giving me a look at contempt, which is the look I'm looking for, because it means part of their defense will start to drop. So when I first get into a room, and I won't mention the company because I'm working with it, but I got put in a room full of a lot of you to alpha males and a very, very, very tough sale sort of environment. There I am, and I'm sitting in this room,

eight in the morning. I couldn't even figure out how to turn the lights on. And I'm waiting for these people to come up for the training. And their CEO had hired me and hadn't told them that I was coming in. He basically just put in their calendar training. And so they start to trickle up one by one. And one of them recognizes me eventually says,

no, I recognize you. You're the guy from the YouTube video. I go, yeah, he goes, oh, no one told us you were coming in. But anyway, so I get 15 guys in the room, all alpha males, and then there's me. And you could tell they all look bored. They didn't want to be there. They were off the phones.

Five hours later though, after the first session, I walked out with another ongoing order with the guy singing my praises saying, it's unbelievable. And I only recently learned that the CEO had put a plant in the training because they built a very successful business off the back of telephone prospecting. And basically, his brief was, we're really good. This guy cannot be as good as what we are. So find the holes, find out what, just find the flaws. And that guy became the biggest champion.

Amazing. Amazing. Yeah. What is it, is it Stockholm syndrome? Stockholm. Yeah. Well, that's what the hostages, they were hostages and they were funded. We've bonded.

And so that is quite common because people look at me, and again, it's all choreographed. I do everything I do is deliberate. And so I want people to think that. I want people to think this guy can't sell. I want these people to think this guy looks a bit of a, but how would I learn from this guy? Because what happens is, is their expectations are set, that when I challenge them and get

them to realize that I know more about their problem, in a very non-aggressive, non-ego-driven way, they start to move. And yeah, and that's why I like it. I love walking into a room and getting that look of disdain, because then I think got one. Because if they're all happy to see me, then I know I'm screwed. I'm gonna be happy to see me.

Yeah, I bet. So we've talked about what you think makes a good salesperson. That is someone who drills the basics, who has a framework, framework, they follow it. Instant consistency. And prospects every day a little bit often. I'm not talking seven hours straight, but consistent prospecting, yeah.

Very important. Okay, so that's what makes a good salesperson. So what are the common things you see that make a bad salesperson? Because from my experience, I know a number of people that are in all sorts of sales from normal tele sales on bottom end consumer products, B2B, B2C, IT stuff recruitment, and there's some guys and girls who are in those positions and I think you've got that job because you're a bit extraverted, you're a gobbyshite and you've managed to fall into a position that it looks like you have the simulate room of competence, what you have is sort of loudness and rational.

Yeah, that's very common. So yeah, most people think selling is the gift of the gab, the ability to convince and the ability to get across complex ideas simplistically. Most sales people, people hate this, but I say, because I am one so I can say, most sales people are losers. They went into, what figure? No one's in sales at a choice. No one. It's kind of like last stitch, isn't it?

It's the job that is always going to be available. Even when the cockroaches are the only thing that's left on this planet after nuclear war. It's still going to be a job for a salesperson. Exactly. So, most people at school will never ask, what do you want to be when you grow up? Maybe one in every 10,000 to the south. Yes, so for those who watch this, who wanted to be a salesman at school, don't write

me and say, I wanted to, I get it one in 10th hour, but 99.9% of people in the sales fell into it. They needed a job and they ended up in the sales and they got stuck. And about three or four years in, they realized they had no transferable skill. So then they just go from sales job to sales job. And what happens is, is most salesmen, when I ask the average MD, be honest, be really honest, do you have salesman or do you have order takers? And they scratch their head and they say, I'd say I have order takers, because they work out that most of their sales come from existing customers who just give them orders. Yeah,

most sales, yeah, they came to us, they needed what we had and we were able to for so they placed orders. And when you break down the actual selling, which is finding people that didn't know they needed what you have and then enabling them to discover that you did, they go, no, we don't do that. Now that's selling. And then I asked them to close their eyes and listen to them on the phone. And I say, do you hear grown-ups or do you hear a little wimp kid or do you hear an angry kid? And they say, I hear children. What do you mean? If you listen to the average salesperson on the phone, they're very needy, begging, and pleading. Sorry to disturb you. It's now a good time. That's a loseery thing to say. Yeah.

time. That's a loseery thing to say. Yeah. You just interrupted a busy person, you're first thing to do is apologize for wasting their time before you've even wasted that time. Yeah and it's like well you sound like a bit of a loser. So yeah. So and you hear them begging people and then they start arguing with people. So imagine being a doctor who specializes in the flu and you phone people up and you say people typically have an appointment with me because they have a running nose, they are they're feeling lethargic and they've got a sore throat and the guys is I don't have any of those because well yes you should. This is what sells people alike right and they argue with prospects and because they're so because they said well you must you must have these problems. If we're phoning you, because we know you're a company that

should, that's true, but maybe not right now, just like everyone will get the flu at some point. It doesn't mean the moment you call them, they recognize it. And so when you listen to them on the phone, they're very needy, very bigy, very pleady, very subservient. They're scared to ask questions and they spend most of their time doing the talking because all the prosper has to do is fire one question. So what does it that you do? And then they vomit on them. So let's sort of linger on this point for a second. What is the power dynamic that you want to have? Is it the complete reverse of that?

Is it halfway between the two of them? Correct me. So I spend my life phoning MDs and CEOs. I have to sound and act like an MD or a CEO because they, that people buy people like them. It's not people buy people. If people bought people, there would be no sales problems, would they? You're the most likable person that you can put them on the phones and then that's everything. by people, if people bought people, there would be no sales problems, would they?

You're the most likable person that you can, put them on the phones and then that's everything. Not like them, so a guy on a Hawaiian shirt will sell to a guy on a Hawaiian shirt. Okay. A guy on a Hawaiian shirt, talking to the guy on the pinstriped suit, in a going farm, very quickly, because they're two different characters.

One will court one way or the other, so so they don't they're not like each other. So when you phone up an MD or a CEO you have to sound an act like one. And what do they sound like? They're short, sharp, clipped, authoritative and direct. If you don't sound like that when you get through to me, I instantly hear, oh I'm so sorry to disturb you. Look, let me just have 30 seconds to introduce my company. I think loser. So what's the alternative? What's your approach?

My approach is just blunt. I say, I'll be upfront, this is sales cool. So you know, hang up, or let me have 30 seconds. What do you want to do? For some to make a choice. And most say, or go on, then what's it about? I go, well, if you don't like it, we can end it in 30 seconds. Fair fun.

And then I talk about what I fix very authoritatively. And if you ask me a question, well, what is it that you do Benjamin? Well, I fix problems like this. You're going to tell me that doesn't interest you, right? Well, no, no, no, no. Well, how do you, oh, how do I fix it? Well, I'll be upfront with you, sir. That's what you're going to pay me a lot of money

to figure out, right? If I tell you that now, you won't need me. And I don't know, no, no, that's fair. So my question is, do you recognize these problems in your world? Yeah, okay. So a few more questions before I agree to meet with you. Power's shifted.

It's all about I'm in control. I know that if you have problems, I can fix. You should be grateful I've phoned you. It's a great way to put it. Another thing as well that I've got in my head is that if there are any salespeople that are listening, you are ringing people and speaking to your prospects or your leads, whatever the terminology that you prefer is, you're speaking to them every day.

This is for you, common, trot and ground, whereas even me who has had the same phone number since he was at 14, so I'm on like a bunch of different like cold call lists and all the rest of it, even for me, I only get one a week, maybe, or maybe one every two weeks. So for me, this isn't my environment. This isn't where I'm supposed to feel comfortable.

It's you. You're supposed to take charge. Don't get on the bus and then there's no bus driver there. And you go, yeah, you got to drive it yourself or get into the operating theater. And you go, well, right, there you go. There's the sutures and there's the scalpel. And you better open yourself up. Well, blah. No, you've got to be in control.

I know what I fix and I'm damn good at it. So the question is, do you have problems and I need you to feel and believe, maybe this guy's got something. He certainly sounds like he knows what he's talking about. And that's not blagging and that's not not not gif to the gabbling and it's not the crap you see on the apprentice and all that.

In the real world, that doesn't work. You can badge as someone into buying from you. Don't get me wrong. But these are the people that then phoned up a few days later and said, actually, I've changed my mind. There's nothing successful about it. It's almost like a lawyer winning trials and then the jury comes, actually, we changed our mind. We don't go along with that. Actually, you were wrong. So, yeah, I mean, that can't happen. It's a bit flippant, but that's not getting it. And so it's not hard to steal money from people. It's not hard to lie to people. I mean, all of these can be done.

Just because someone gives you money, doesn't make you a salesman. Yeah, a salesman. I mean, just because you represent yourself in quarter couple of times, doesn't make you a lawyer. Yeah, just because people are splinted around if your foot doesn't make you a surgeon. Yeah, so you can do things and maybe have some success But it doesn't make you a professional at it because a professional has consistent

Outcomes and they're more interested in how they get to where they're going as opposed to whether or not they get there That is the key thing. I don't care if someone buys from me What I care about is how I got to the point where they made the decision they weren't gonna buy from me, because if they should have bought from me and they've decided not to, it means I've done something wrong, which means I can fix it. Whereas if we get all the way and they buy,

I can say I know exactly why they bought as opposed to, I think it's gonna say like this. Yeah, you were saying to Mike that you're able to walk backward through your particular sales pitch to most people every which way dissect it, however it needs to be dissected. Here's the inflection point, here's the question point, et cetera.

Yes, if somebody, if I was to ask the average salesman, talk to you through your last sales call, backwards, and they'd struggle, and I'd say, well, this is it. I gave him one last reason not to meet with me. We then before that, we agreed what would happen by the end of that meeting. Before that, I asked him to invite me in. Before that, I finished on a series of six questions, which are designed to move from intellect to emotion. Before that I got permission to ask those questions. Before that I asked them did any of the three pains that I suggested relating.

Before that I did my 30 second pain commercial. Before that I did a patented rub to get permission to do the circuit. Before that I thought to myself before I picked up the phone this guy's lucky I'm calling him. That's awesome. Yeah. And that's a process, it's structure. And every call I make goes the same way. It never changes. Well, again, with that, so there'll be some online market is listening, use of in Johnny two co-hosts of the show will be listening as well. And they they traffic in Grant Cardone's world, right? They traffic in the world of click funnels and of online marketing. And they actually now coach coaches online to start their

own Fit Pro businesses. But they want that they bizarrely actually want the same thing as you. So Johnny always says to me that the single most painful sale that he can make is one where someone's typed in the URL of his website and then gone through the process from there because he has no idea where that person's come from. Did they see an advert online? Did they once watch you? What is it? A blog post that's then been expanded out into an article and they've seen somewhere? Was it a referral? Was it a podcast? Was it a this? He's that I need to be able to track what's happened so that I can then dissect it, scale it, retarget, do all that stuff. And what you're talking about here, it sounds like is a verbal equivalent of right? You want to be able to process and structure.

Selling and on the phone and face to face is the art of human communication. It's a communication skill, which means you have to have a structure to that communication in order to, which is designed to move a prospect from a point to a point. And at any point along that journey, they can exit it if it's not right for either of us. But if we get through it to the end, we're gonna work together. And so I'm not really a sales trainer. I just teach people how to communicate and I give them a structure, how to ask questions, how to nurture, how not to ask questions,

how knowing when to struggle, the art of deliberately struggling, the art of getting things wrong on purpose. So my job is to teach what a rookie did out of ignorance, a professional does on purpose, but deliberately. And then we can scale, then we can replicate. We can replicate.

And yeah, that's why I like it. It's theatre. Yeah, it definitely is. So I wanted to move up a level now. And I wanted to, there will be a number of people I know that are listening, because I'm going to send it to them once we're done, who are either managers, coaches, or CEOs, team leaders within businesses that are doing sales. And I know that all of them have there's a real, a real unique atmosphere between a team leader, manager, whatever it might be, and CEO, and and the guys on the sales floor. And I think it's a very unique dynamic between them.

I wondered what you typically see in terms of good and bad strengths and weaknesses when you do see this relationship when you go into businesses. Well, often sales managers are good sales people that got promoted and the problem with that is sales management skills are different from being off to sales. So what happens is you often lose a good salesman and get a shitty manager. So that's quite a lot. A lot of times CEOs and business owners, they've slightly lost touch with their sales team because they've extricated with their sales team because they've extricated themselves from the sales but they know how to do sales. And so most MDS and CEOs are getting in front of, they often say to me, you know what,

Benjur, I just wish my guys were like me when I set up this business, I was out there bang, bang, bang. And I said, look, that's why you own the business and they work for it. Because if they were genuinely like that, do you think they'd be here working for you? Yeah. No, no, they wouldn't. No. No.

We have to appreciate that most of the, and the good ones, so what we need to do is find the ones that we can invest in. Coaching is about the getting best at it. So a sales manager has two roles. High the best people and get the best album. That's it. One of the biggest problems is, most sales managers and most companies have their own sales targets.

The problem is, you've got actually now, where do you think they're going to spend most of their energy and effort in hitting their sales target? So they spend more time focusing on the thing they shouldn't be focused on. So sales managers should not have a sales target. He should be targeted on what all his guys do. So his job is to get the best out of them, to monitor their minimum behaviors, to hold people accountable,

to challenge someone asked questions, not to accept excuses. You know, and they accept excuses, left, right, and center. Don't accept excuses. They need to give their people structure so that they can hold them to it. The big problem with salespeople is we like to leave them to their own devices. And that's what salesmen love. That's a badge of honor.

I don't need a process. I'm all right with this. I've got a million of these meetings. I just go and people buy people. They like me and I'm good right with this. I've got a million of these meetings. I just go and people buy people, they like me and I'm good at presenting. It's like, imagine asking your lawyer, why are you so good?

He goes, ah, I'm not good at it. I do these things all the time. And I think Jury's just naturally warm to me. And people like, what the, I'm not hiring you. And you ask a professor because I'll tell you why. It's because I do this at every single time.

This I challenge, I challenge this, this, this, this I know where I'm going, I have this, same with a surgeon, why do your patients not die? Ah, I guess. You know, salesmen love that, you you and then you asked the average salesman Why did we win that order and they said I don't know doesn't matter We've won and of course that fucking matters because if we want to do it again, we can repeat it No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, And they wouldn't wait loose. It's never there fault Ah, they didn't want it. They weren't right. They're not even Brexit whatever it's like it could be you man. That's not me because I sold last week

With your unscalable and repeatable sales process there's nothing Nothing about that. That's good. That will only get you so far I don't don't get me wrong. You can make a lot of money doing it that way. And most salesmen do. But it's very frustrating and it doesn't improve you as an individual or give you better skills. And I think I'm in this just to get better at what I do.

The money comes, it's a byproduct of doing something well. It's successful people tell you that money is never the end goal. It happens to be a byproduct of doing something well. I agree. So two things. I've got two doors to hell open in my mind at the moment. The first one is if you don't promote the people that are good at selling to be the people who lead the sellers, why do the people that are sellers respect their team leader if they haven't come up through the selling process? Let's say that we have some alternate if arrangement whereby it's not the best seller who's been there for a while that then becomes team leader.

We get someone who's a particularly good manager, but maybe not amazing at selling or else you just have them as a salesperson, right? What's the solution to that there because you need to have that respect from the guys on the floor? This is true. That's a good question. What's the solution to that there because you need to have that respect from the guys on the floor? This is true. That's a good question. Learning management skills, I've just said it there.

It is a skill which can be learned. So you'd need to invest in upskilling people or remind you're no longer a salesman now. And the key thing that you need to focus on is getting the best out of your people. So if you ask, and this would be a good test, is you need to ask your top salesman who you want to promote, why are you such a good salesman? What is it that you do? Can you distill it? Can you systemize it?

Are you able to repeat it? Or is it what most salesmen say? It's just I just have a unique, it's my ability it's just just what I do so no you see if you can't distill that yourself you're never going to be off to pass it on you need so you need to do some academic understanding of why you're good at what you do so a lawyer can become a law lecturer and most lawyers have been lecturers, or most lecturers have been lawyers at some point in practice and look,

because they can do what they teach, but they also understand why what they do works. So that is, that I think is fundamentally lacking, because if you ask the average salesperson, it doesn't matter how many years they're living in sales, why do people buy? What's the process of human being goes through to buy? Most people look at me blankly, and they don't know.

Get the truth. That's the thing, that's the answer. Why do people buy? What's the process they go through? And they look at you and most people then have some idea, they say, well, they buy out of need. No. Well, yes, they do.

No, no, no, no, I know, but that's not the answer. What is the process that go through? Well, how does a human being buy? And they look at you blankly and they, I don't know. And then they go, well, they buy emotionally. You go, yeah, I'm, we're getting there. And what else? I don't, I don't know.

So you've been in sales for five years. And you don't know this. That'd be like asking a lawyer who's been practicing for five years. How does the high court work? No, no. I just I just turn up there and sometimes sometimes I win a case. I think the guy on the wicket, the top makes the decisions. I don't know.

I think the guy on the wig at the top makes the decisions. I don't worry. You know, and so if you don't understand the basics, and this is it because people don't believe selling is a profession or actually a skill. They call themselves professionals, and they say selling is a skill, but when you ask them can you quantify and tell me why you're good at what you do, they look at you blankly and so I don't really know. Well then, the the hell are you on about? I suppose as well, that means that the worst person that you could promote from salesperson to team leader

would be the naturally talented person who's maybe not too self analytical and has a passion for sales. Because you've muted their passion for the one thing that they enjoyed doing, and they have absolutely no idea why they have success at that particular thing. Yeah, exactly.

Conversely, I'm gonna guess probably why a lot of team leaders will be made team leaders. He's just so passionate about sales. And he's just got a natural gift. It's like, yeah, fucking leave him there. Don't take him out of that role. Well, this is it, but we live in a world which constantly bangs on about, you know, work on your weaknesses.

The school system is terrible for that. So you remember at school, you get your school report. And it would say he does really well at math, does all right in English, but his geography, he needs to try harder. And it's like, why? They're healthy, gonna do a geography. What I should say is he's bloody good at math needs to try harder and it's like, why? They're healthy, gonna do a geography.

What I should say is he's bloody good at math and he should really spend more time doing math. Yeah. It is interesting, the fact that we go from this sort of shallow and broad to narrow and deep. And, you know, anyone who's read James Clears at Tommy Cabitz from this year knows that you cannot be the best in your field at everything. You need to pick your battle and you need to

try and win it over and over and over and over and over again. And there is some point, there's some like weird age. It's like 18 and a half or something and you hit 18 and a half and everyone on the planet is like, right, we don't care about how broad your skill set is, we just want you to be brilliant at one thing. And that it's all about how good you are at that one thing. But you're right, before that, you do need to cover this incredibly broad range of subjects. You haven't got a statistical brain or you just love sport. You know, these guys that love sport throughout school

and are forced to study all that time. You think, well, how much better can I be if I was playing sports at school? Yeah, that's it. So don't work on your weaknesses. You work on your strengths. And you find someone who has strengths and your weaknesses and you buddy up. That's how businesses work. You know, this is why the MD and the FD are so different. One's good with numbers, one's not good. One's money, one's job is to stop and spending money, one's blue sky, think, one's a being counter, but they complement each other and that's how

they work and it's just like, you know, marriage opposite, you see, it's how did she get with them? It's one of those things, you know, but it's because they're so different to each other that they complement each other with their different personality traits. You know, you always get a really thin guy with a large woman or, you know, it's odd. They do so and that's what it's like. So find out what you're good at and just get good at doing it. Don't worry about trying to be a jack of all traits. Got you. So that was the first daughter health.

Second daughter health, we'll close this one now. Yeah. all trades. Got you. So that was the first daughter hell. Second daughter hell, we'll close this one now, is if there is a problem with the process, is that not the issue with the company, rather than with the salesperson, should the company not have either more stringent sales processes that people need to go through like. Well, most sales people most companies confuse sales process for the structure they follow and by that when you say what's your sales process they go well we have a first meeting then we do a proposal then we'll go to pitch and then we'll win and then we'll map out that's their set but that's not a sales process that's a structure you seem to get trapped into every time you meet a prospect.

Now I'm saying, when you get in front of a prospect, what's the game plan? When you walk in there, do you know how you're gonna move that person from intellect to emotion them back to intellect? Because that's how they're gonna buy. Because first of all, it's gonna be all intellect or they're not gonna tell you the truth or open up to you.

So what's your game plan for getting the CEO of that company to open up to you about the real reason your game plan for getting the CEO of that company to open up to about the real reason why you're sitting in front of them? Well, we just tend to go in and talk about what we do. Yeah, okay. So that's not really a process. A selling is a communication that I need to get a human being. I know he buys emotionally. So how do I get that guy emotionally to open up to me about why I'm there? Very hard to do if you don't know how to do it. It's not common in vomit features and benefit. So is it a company's fault? Yes, because most companies don't know how to sell. Most companies sell all and again, when people see what I teach, I point out

that most the has created a system whereby they're always in control. And every now and then they let salesmen win. And more salesmen don't realize it. And they think we're selling, but what they're really doing is taking an order because the buyer has actually already decided I wanted to work with you guys. I've just put you through your paces, but I was always gonna buy.

Now, now I'll never tell you this. They'll give you some cock and bull story about how, oh, you know, we just felt it was a fint, blah, blah, blah. But no, I knew from the very beginning we were gonna work with you, but I didn't tell you that. So most buyers, you know, they are willing, they're ready to place an order and most salespeople go in and they do the dog and pony show, give the intellectual justification and the prospects

as a right-a-man and I think fuck we're good. No, they'd already decided to buy before you got there, you just gave the intellectual justification for them to exercise that emotional decision. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, it's down to me. Why did you lose that other deal where you did exactly the same thing? Ah, well, you don't just wrong timing. So you've touched on the question I wanted to ask and I don't know whether this is the one that I'm going to have to crowdsource a lot of people to pay your money for, but why do people buy? Why does a customer buy? Well, again, people buy them emotionally, just to find them intellectually. So, in order for

someone to give you money, they have to feel it. So think about this. The toothpaste you have in your bathroom, you've either got a tube or a pump. Tube. You've got a tube. I've got a pump. Why? or a pub. Cube. You got a tube. I got a pub. Why? They've been thought about it. Why do you get a little pub? I don't think I like the pub. I don't like the pub. Utterly irrational. It's an emotional thing. Yeah, every morning you brush your teeth and the last thing you want to do is be bitching about the device which dispenses your toothpaste. So you buy toothpaste emotionally. It's because I buy the pub because I like it. Which by the way is the least emotional product

that I can think of. But it's emotionally driven. I hate mint so I buy plain. I don't like the stripes because I hate stripes. So I get the other one. You know, and it's all of it is irrational. But when you're in the supermarket making a decision, you buy the one that makes you feel the best.

So every purchase is emotionally driven. So British Telecom knows that to get you to pick up the phone right and call your mom on this weekend to pay no more than one P for the whole call is intellectually dry. How do you get people to act on that? You can't. So they they they hire an advertising agency and they create an advert.

And then this adverts a little old lady she's sitting in a chair. The camera slowly pans around. She's got a bun in her hair. She's knitting away. It's very soft focus. And then the voices have you talked to your mother lately and you think, fuck. No.

I'll give you with guilt. That's a feeling and then they say, well, by the way, call to this weekend to pay no more than one P. So every advert is designed to hook you emotionally to get you engaged with it. Selling is the same. When you get in front of the CEO or the buyer of whatever your product is, and they say we're very interested in your new software, you don't talk about the software. It's like, why do you need the software? Because we're having problems.

Or how big are the problems? What have you done to fix it? What's the impact on the business? How does it make you feel knowing that all this is happening? And you'll soon discover they're buying, not because they care about your product, but if you can fix this for me, you're going to take away a lot of grief in my life. That's what I want the software for. It's got nothing to do with the certification or the widgets or anything. It's if it can fix this, if it can get my boss off my back, you every bloody Monday's bitching at me, I will pay double. Yeah.

So that's the business we're in. So people buy emotionally, they just to find intellectually. Our job as a salesman is to find out what is the compelling emotional reason. Why do you need to do this, sir? And if you don't, how does that make you feel? And if the answers, I don't really care, it doesn't bother me, they're never going to spend money. That was a point there that Grant and Jordan had a real back and forth about. I think John, John Belfort was adamant, there are buyers and there are non buyers. Grant Cardone

was there are only buyers. Everybody wants to buy something. And his argument was, I need a wide enough product range so that when I need to speak to someone, speak to someone they can buy anything, which was then framed by Jordan in a really unethical way that made Grant look like a complete dick. Yeah. Fish, wasn't it? Yeah. Fish. What if they're not buying fish? Well, they are. But no, no, no, Grant, they are not buying fish. This person has said they don't want fit well, they are. And that was it for two and a half hours. Yeah, exactly. I mean, Jordan is right, but it goes back to,

that's why I prefer the doctor analogy because it's more accurate. Everybody at some point is going to get the flu. And every at some point, therefore, is going to have symptoms that indicate they may have the flu. So my job is to look for people that have the symptoms, because actually some flu symptoms are also flu symptoms that could be cancer. So it turns out when I get there and I diagnose, it's actually, you don't need a flu specialist,

you need an oncologist, and I don't sell oncology services. So what happens is just because someone has symptoms of a problem we can fix, does it, I think, I think, cryance approach, if someone has a symptom, I'll give them a product. If I'm non-cologist, I'll sell them a cancer solution. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or I can see the point to that, but then you're a jack of all master of none.

Whereas Jordan's saying, well, no, some people will need what you have at a particular moment in time, another's won't. The guy doesn't want fish You don't get a buy fish, but in three weeks he may want fish So you need to be top of the list of people to call when the fish yeah hunger strikes I yeah, this is why we develop prospecting profiles our profile our ideal prospect is a company in this sector turning over this who probably buys

this sort of equipment. So that's my profile but I don't know at any given point in time when that particular prospect and that profile will need what I have. That's why I prospect. So I'm talking to them and at some point they say you're called at the right time management I do have all of those issues. I didn't six weeks ago when you call. This is why you phone someone up and they say, we've literally just bought that solution. Oh, you should have called earlier. Well, I'll be trying to be trying you for years. Well, that's the way it works. You've got

a call at the time when they have symptoms. If they don't have symptoms, they're not going to talk. Simple as that. It's very easy, Salon. And that's why, this why salespeople are so frustrated. Because they spend their whole life trying to argue with people why they should be buying from them. As soon as someone says no, I do one last question, fire out one thing to see if it's a real no

or if it's a fake no, and then I'll move on to the next prospect. And that's exactly what Jordan says. I'd rather talk to the person who's likely to say yes, than have an argument with the guy who's told me no, and the whole thing I can brow beat him into saying yes. That's not selling. I imagine as well.

So my brief stint doing upsells to an existing motoring product, appearing in Newcastle. I struggled to remove myself from being emotionally invested in the outcome of the sale. So I would, if I had a good day, I would feel good. If I had a bad day, I would feel bad. I'm going to guess that's pretty common. Very common. You've got to separate your role from your identity. So a salesman is a role. It's just a function that you perform.

You're a salesman when you go into the office. But when you walk out, you're, I don't know, if you're married or have kids, but you're a father or a brother or a husband or son. Those are also roles. And so what people do is they allow role bleed. So you allow your behavior in your role to bleed into how you see yourself as a human being as a person.

So I had a shit day as a salesman, Ergo, I'm probably a pretty crap person. So I feel bad about myself. Whereas you've got to actually know, do you think your lawyer burst into tears at the end of a trial because he loses? I hope not. No, he takes off his wig, he goes, well, you know, you win some, you lose some. We did everything right.

We always knew it was going to be tough. We always said the outcome could go either way. It went the way we didn't want to go. Backs away at roles. I'm not a shitty person because I didn't win. I don't feel bad. I haven't had a bad day at the office. I may be slightly annoyed because I did want to win, but when I look at everything, we did everything right. That comes back to controllables versus uncontrollables, right? Yeah. You can't control whether or not that person is ready to buy at that time.

No. If they're not ready to buy at that time, you were never ever going to sell to them. All you controllers, everything up to the point they have to put their hand in their wallet. Which is a lot. Yeah. Yeah. And my job is to get them to the point that they want to stick their hand into their wallet. If I've got to the point and it comes to them sticking their hand into the wallet and they're not

willingly put it in there, I've screwed up earlier on. I should have got out earlier. So, that's why it comes down to how you disqualify. Do you ever find yourself listening? I don't know whether you've got some special agreement with UK wide sales companies where they do not get your number, but I don't know whether you've got some special agreement with UK wide sales companies where they do not get your number, but I don't know whether you ever receive call calls or whether you receive sales orders. Oh, I do. Yeah.

Do you find yourself allowing the role of a customer just to sort of listen to them and assess? Do you ever use it as a little case study for yourself? What? Or could you just fucking sicker sales and you just, you want to get off it? I listened to them and I humor them. I behave like a prospect because I can't file up being a prospect

so I can behave like, but this is a true story. I think it was last year. No, the year before, the year before. I know last year, it was last year. Anyway, anyway, last year. So I was making some prospecting calls and my signal kept cutting in and out. Now, I'm two calls talking to a managing director,

the phone line just pissed off. So I was annoyed. So we did that afternoon, my phone rang, and I answered it, there was some guy selling telecoms. Now, normally you tell them to, you know, airfart, I'm not interested. But I said, no, no, no, no, I'll hear you out. And the guy was all right.

He asked some good questions and I quite liked what he was doing. And I said, you know what? I said, I'm in. Let's do it. He goes, really? You want to, I said, yeah. He goes, okay. We'll move it forward.

I can actually question though, before we move on. I said, do you know why I'm buying from you? And he said, well, yeah, because you were saying, well, he goes, we're giving you an extra 10 megs of data, you're gonna unlimited it. All of this, I say it's got none of that. He goes, I say, I'll tell you why, this morning, two calls of mine screwed up.

I pissed off at 02. I have no idea if you're going to provide a better service. At this point, I don't care. All I know is that they're not going to be getting my money from today. I'm buying out of spiked and out of frustration. It's vengeful. It's got nothing. Nothing.

I say, I don't need 10 megs. I've never used 10 megs in a month in my life And you offered me a discount before you but asked I'm gonna take it but you were too quick I said you're giving me a great deal, but it's none of that is why I'm changing I only listen to you because I was pissed off. I was emotionally annoyed You got me at the right time and then justified it And then actually he gave me the reason all all right, fine, I'm in. Let's do it. Yeah. So that is it. So this is why you got to know what to say.

And you can create that feeling though. So it's important what you say on the phone. So I'm very big. You don't talk about what you do. You talk about what you fix. So you identify the three biggest symptoms that your prospects are likely to suffer from. And ask them, do you have them? Because they may say, actually, I do now that I'm thinking about, I do, yeah, I have noticed that. Now we're going to have a conversation. So that's my job. It's just, I know what I fix and I know what it looks like in your world You don't know what I fix but you do know what the symptoms in your world look like all I've got to get you to admit is you have one the summer all of those symptoms

And we're gonna have a chat about how I can help if you don't recognize any of it I'll call you back in three months because at some point you will These symptoms are going to metastasize into a full blow and illness exactly and I'll call you back in three months because at some point you will. These symptoms are going to metastasize into a full blow and illness. Exactly. And I'll be here. So I know that you mentioned that you've done some live sales calls before where you actually essentially don't know the product where you've gone into companies and sold whatever it is, not knowing it.

And I suppose that that is, okay, what is it fixed? What are the problems that it fixes? What is a managing director in your target market bitching about that you fix, but he doesn't know you're the solution. So I do, I work with a company that sells valves and we had to go through this process. And I said, well, they're constantly annoyed

at price increases in this product range. Okay, what else annoys them? Sometimes they have problems with cladding. It's very specific. And so the water gets in. That can be frustrated. Okay, what else? And another one is, I suppose if you order these things, it can be lead time.

If you've got a project and you can't get them in quick enough, it can have a knocker. Okay, fine. Right, that's all I need to know, right, let's make some sales calls. So then I just phone up engineering directors, and I said, I'll be up front, it's a sales call, you can hang up, no, no, fine, what do you say? So look, I get invited in by engineering directors,

they're often in the oil industry, such as yourself. And I'll be honest, they're probably already using certain valve, but some of them complain that sometimes they have water ingress issues and as a result the valve is leaking, others say their biggest concern isn't that, but sometimes lead times can be challenging. And if they don't get a part, that can have an offer. And a few tell me that their biggest concern is, and I can't remember what the third one was, I just say that, but I get the feeling you're going to tell me you don't recognize any of that.

And it's amazing. They all go, well, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, I recognize that. We do suffer from that. Okay, well, off those three things, water leaking into it, a lead time, or whatever the third one was. If you could pick one of those to fix, which would you pick? Ah, well I'd say it's the water. Okay, I've had my 30 seconds. Can I speak to you for maybe two more minutes? Yeah, sure.

So when you say the water in grass, what do you mean exactly? And then they start talking to me about their problem. They don't realize it. It's all I got to do. It doesn't matter what I sell, it's what do I fix, how does what I fix manifest itself in my prospects world, how do I talk to them about that? So suppose thinking about it in that sort of a way, you are very much a Swiss army knife

as someone who has selling ability and you need what, a week's training probably on even the most complex of product half a day at the most Time for an hour to figure out what people fix. It's funny because most people don't and it's funny and every company I go into and you ask what are you fix? What are you fix? How does it matter? And they look at you blankly and it takes ages And it's isn't as fascinating you spend all day of your life phoning up people telling them you know them You understand them you live and breathe their world and you can't tell me what you fix I said that's shameful isn't it Imagine your doctor not being able to answer that question

Well, there's people sometimes these these people come in, yes, and well, sometimes they're not very well, yes, and fucking hell, they're drawing a lot of horse towards you. Yeah, ridiculous. So this is what my job is, I get people to discover it, I get to the figure, and I teach them how to say it, because it's all theater, it's all acting, and everything I say is choreographed.

You've got to say it in the right way. You've got to ask the question in the right. You've got to pause at the right moment for effect because my job is to create emotion. It's acting. What's the difference between a good actor and a great actor? It's not the script. It's the delivery of the script. Yeah. A great actor takes the script and turns it into something but he doesn't have to alter the words. He just delivers it, pauses in the right place, emphasizes the right thing. And that's my job on the phone and in person. It's all choreographed to make the

prospect feel okay about themselves and comfortable and open up to me. When you say it like that, thinking about the power that a salesperson has someone with a real sales talent, salespeople must be good, properly good, scalable, replicable, framework-based salespeople. Must be some of the most valuable workers on the planet. Yes, the whole world is capitalistist. It's buying and selling. That's it. The whole world turns on this.

It's a selling. A lot of sales jobs will be replaced by AI, a lot of these phone-based ones, because all they're doing up is taking orders and you can teach it an algorithm. I've listened to these Google AI things and I've heard one make a phone call and make an appointment and you wouldn't know you're not talking to a person.

So all you've got to do is program a computer who has no emotion, has no feelings and only will follow an algorithm and do the same thing well over and over again. But for long most sales people you won't need them. And this is my biggest fear is a lot of sales people don't realize they're not going to be required unless they have that skill themselves like the algorithm because they can still need you into face to face higher level. So they are under threat. Wow, so people need to work with their skills. Yeah, without doubt. Well Benjamin, today's been absolutely amazing. If people want to find out a little bit more,

where should they head, what can they get you? Well, LinkedIn is the best place to find me. So if you just put in UK's most hated South China or Benjamin Denny, my website, funnily enough, is UK's most hated South China.com. But it's nothing sexy. It literally is a brochure designed to take card payments. I've actually had people say your website's shut. I go, well, you're not hiring a web designer.

So why are we having this conversation? That's a great point. Yeah, I'm not a web design. I built it myself. Congratulations. Yes, it was. I saw an example in behavioural economics today from Richard Shotton, who is the author of the choice factory in a previous modern wisdom guest. This example said, outside of a butcher's shop, he said, sausages inside £10, but sausages had too many apostrophes in it. He said, the number of people that walk into the shop and said, you know, you know, the sign outside has like two apostrophes in sausages and essentially it doesn't need any. And he says, yeah, I do.

Now how many sausages do you want? Yeah. It's brilliant, isn't it? I love it. I love that open loop. You've got to get it, man. Yeah. So anyway, everything that we've spoken about today, Benjamin's website is fantastic LinkedIn

where he keeps on putting up great content and his Twitter, which I've actually I've got a YouTube channel YouTube and if he's got that, he can want a mug or a teacher or a cat Fantastic make sales great again make salesman great again. Wait make salesman great again make salesman great again. Wait, make salesman great again. I deliberately to I wind up the woke folk of today. You do indeed. That doesn't surprise me at all. Also, you're going to have at some point in the future might be having a digital product coming out,

which you won't be able to touch wood in a launch in January. It's an online training platform. So a lot of people can't get to me here in the UK to come to my events, but they'd love to do some online training. So I've filmed these events and I've chopped it all up and turned it into a training portal, which people can buy a subscription to. So that'll be, I don't know all the specifics yet, but it should be next month.

But it'll be on LinkedIn and marketed through LinkedIn. So perfect. I love it, man. Benjamin, thank you so much for your time. I appreciate it. Thanks for having me all.