Modern Wisdom - #132 - Charlotte Fox Weber - Do I Need Therapy?

Episode Date: January 9, 2020

Charlotte Fox Weber is the Head of Psychotherapy at The School Of Life. Therapy is a term that comes with a lot of baggage. It's seen as a last ditch measure, a solution that is only needed by someone in a dire situation to "fix" a problem. But what even is therapy and what does it do? Should it only be used by the people who are at the end of their tether? Who is it for? And why is it so stigmatised? Extra Stuff: My Starting Therapy Video - https://youtu.be/jK-mw8rXziY The School Of Life Psychotherapy - https://www.theschooloflife.com/therapy/ Freud - On Transience - https://www.sas.upenn.edu/~cavitch/pdf-library/Freud_Transience.pdf Take a break from alcohol and upgrade your life - https://6monthssober.com/podcast Check out everything I recommend from books to products - https://www.amazon.co.uk/shop/modernwisdom - Get in touch. Join the discussion with me and other like minded listeners in the episode comments on the MW YouTube Channel or message me... Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/ModernWisdomPodcast Email: https://www.chriswillx.com/contact Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello friends, welcome back to Modern Wisdom. Today I'm talking to Charlotte Foxwebber who is the head of psychotherapy at the School of Life down in London. You may know the School of Life from their YouTube channel, 500 million plus views. But today we're not talking about online content, we're talking about therapy, psychotherapy specifically. We're learning about what it is, why it was created, what it consists of, and we're trying to break apart why there's so much baggage attached to the term. I'm currently quite fascinated with these sorts of topics, sobriety being one of them, why is that we think only people who have an alcohol dependency can go sober or should

go sober and why the trappings are attached to that. And then the same for therapy as well, why is it that we only believe people who are on the verge of some breakdown can use therapy. If you want to find out even more about my personal views on this, then I did a video on the Modern Wisdom YouTube channel, which you go and check out called starting therapy. You might be able to find some more illuminating ideas in there, but for now, please welcome the wise and wonderful Charlotte Foxwebber. I'm joined by Charlotte Foxweber, head of psychotherapy at the School of Life. Charlotte, welcome modern wisdom. Hello, great to be here. It's fantastic to have you on. So I actually came down to see you in London a couple of months ago, to the listeners who sort of did a pre-lood

to us having this sit down and we had a really cool discussion about therapy and what it is, why there's a stigma surrounding it, and the process that some therapists have to go through before they get qualified. And I just thought it was really eye-opening as a subject that very few people have been exposed to, I think, at least without all of the trappings of stigma and kind of rumour and mythology that surrounds stuff like therapy. So I thought this would be a really valuable podcast for people to listen to to and obviously you got you got great accent. So Thank you. Um, so just for anything. I know. So first off, tell us what what therapy is. How do you define therapy? Good question. Um, therapy is a particular kind of conversation between two people.

It can't be between more than two people as well, but for one-on-one therapy, it's a particular conversation in a safe, confidential space, and it's really about providing a safe space where you can have this unusual encounter with another person and confront aspects of yourself and get insights about yourself and get feedback and have a deeper understanding of whatever issues you're bringing up. What's unique about that versus me just having a good conversation with someone who is knowledgeable about how the human mind works? I think the asymmetry is a big part of what makes therapy a different set up than anything else. It's very much about the client and therapists at the School of Life particularly work very

relationally so they will bring themselves into it but it's still only ever going to be in your best interest. It's not okay enough about you now let's talk about me. It's not a quid pro quo. And I think it's that lopsidedness that makes it unusual and entirely effective. We were talking previously when I was spending time with you about the fact that a lot of conversations are kind of like a game of tennis, right? It's like you finish, now it's my turn, now I'll do my thing, and then I finish, and? It's like, you finish. Now it's my turn. Now I'll do my thing. And then I finish and then it's your turn again. Do you win your joke?

Yeah. Yeah. And all of the trappings and trimmings that come along with that, to the people who are listening who haven't seen it already, I did a starting therapy video which will be linked in the show notes below. And as a part of that, one of the things that I realized, whilst I was reflecting on both Alain from the School of Life's new book, An Emotional Education, plus my conversation with yourself, one of the things that I'd realized was just how few conversations you have which aren't just posturing or signaling or like throughout pretty much every conversation I think it's really difficult for people to realize just how much what you're saying is meant to have some sort of an impact on the other person. Like what does me saying this

thing say about me, what does it say to them, what's their response or they laughed, they didn't laugh or they smiled, they didn't laugh, or they smiled, they didn't smile, they did this, they did this, and it fully takes you out of yourself, right? It's not about... It's performative. Yes. A lot of the times. And one of the things that I love about therapy is that it's a laboratory for testing out new ways of relating. So if you have issues with confrontation, with rejection, with fumbling, saying things you feel awkward about, nervous about, you can test it all out in a really safe space.

And there are no repercussions because there's a kind of guarantee that discomfort can be tolerated, that awkwardness can be tolerated. One of the things I also I'm fond of is that you don't have to have the usual social etiquette. I don't know if you ever asked your therapist how he or she is, but you certainly don't have to. You can start right in. You can begin by describing a twig you found on the street. You can describe an egregious encounter you had with a colleague.

You can just say what comes to mind, and that's an incredible privilege to not have to go through the platitudes of normal chitchat. Totally right. It's a very unique opportunity for people to speak in that sort of a way and not have to fulfill that daily, the daily sort of normal, so I suppose. So can you give us a little bit of a background, the foundations of therapy and also the particular type of therapy that you specialize in at the School of Life?

Sure. So we are quite fond of the influences of Freud, although we are not strictly Freudian, but it does begin with Freud starting with the 50-minute hour, which is that sessions take place for 50 minutes and it's called the 50-minute hour. It's an unusual setup and term in a way and it's about two people facing each other. We don't do psychoanalysis where you lie in a couch. It's very much a visual face-to-face process. We adore Winnecaw at the School of Life. I'm just dropping some names and theories.

Tell us about them. We want to know about them. Okay, so I'll throw some terminology at you. I would say we work in a way that is psychodynamically informed and appreciates attachment theory and also incorporates existential humanism. So there's some jargon. There's some jargon for us. Why don't we learn a little bit about that jargon? What does that mean? What it means is that we really appreciate the intellectual underpinnings of psychoanalysis. It has incredible rigor inside depth. However, we feel that it's much more valuable to be relational and real and personable when you're in the room with another person.

So we don't do the blank slate thing. We actually are quite friendly. We're human. We're warm, and that's where humanism comes in, and existentialism, because we relate in the here and now. It's not all about interpretation. We also will just be quite kind of instinctual and immediate and giving feedback. And of course, when I say we, we're a team of 22 therapists and we all have our own personalities and idiosyncrasies. So I can't guarantee that we're all going to be clones of each other. And nor would you necessarily want that. It'll be somewhat bespoke person to

person. But we're quite united in having a shared ethos. And I think that that sets us apart from going to other services where you don't really know what what it is that you're getting. And we're incredibly fond of Ellen DeBotan's philosophy and and he's often chatting with us and vice versa. So there's a kind of joint up thinking that I think also goes outside of psychotherapy. So we love psychotherapy, we love all of the theories, but we also love other aspects of culture and aren't afraid to bring that into the work. How would you define Allen's approach to psychotherapy and I guess emotional well-being on a broader scale? So he is very fond of romantic realism, it's his concept.

He takes quite a kind of healthy pessimistic approach to human nature. And I feel like you already know this part and probably relate to it. Tell me the thoughts. Hey, I think a healthy relationship to realistic pessimism is, yeah, yeah. it's a very good way to describe it. Yeah, we don't like to be overly upbeat and kind of jolly people along because we don't

think that helps. And being relentlessly positive can actually be quite oppressive and depressing. So we prefer to be kind of cynical and then there's a bit of encouragement and hopefulness that comes through. And I think that philosophy definitely comes through in our approach to therapy. We're not deterministic. We think that people can recover. We have quite a kind of encouraging outlook when it comes to trauma. We prefer things like post-traumatic growth,

rather than post-traumatic stress. Of course, there is post-traumatic stress, but we love the idea that people can overcome unbelievable difficulty and adversity. So there is a kind of hopefulness despite all of the pessimism, and if we can manage expectations, Alan is very big about expectations, not to idealize,

to be aware of some of the trappings of fantasy. One of the things that I often think, when I read a lot of Alan's work, is he's incredibly very transparent, very accepting of human failings very compassionate towards the things that all of us do and I think that it's a incredibly unique approach I wonder how many people haven't heard a voice like that before and I guess the role of a therapist is to kind of be that voice that no one else is to an extent. Sure.

And actually, that's where humanism comes into our work as well. We really like empathy, which is such a kind of obvious statement, but something that can really be missing in a lot of relationships. See, in couples, especially where empathy just can go out the window, it's one of those qualities that were talked about a little bit at school. especially where empathy just can go out the window. It's one of those qualities that were taught about a little bit at school and then we forget. I don't know if you ever taught about empathy growing up. No, I'm from T-side so we went we weren't taught much about that. Well, I was taught about it only indirectly when I

think about it. It was it was through books. It was books like Ketcher and the Rye. We're holding coffee. It has a great deal of empathy and things about the ducks and what they'll do during the winter and you learn about it through characters, not necessarily directly. But it's a quality that, again, I think should inform therapy, a great deal, and that doesn't mean empathy without challenge, but really understanding someone else's struggle. And I think that's a big value of psychotherapy, feeling that someone can actually understand and think about what you're going through. So moving on to some of the preconceptions about therapy, I think this is a really interesting

topic, the fact that it is, I suppose, the somewhere in between meditation and therapy would be the equivalent of the gym for the mind. And as Sam Harris puts it, he says that there are no norms surrounding mental training in the same way that there are surrounding physical training. However, if you were to roll the clock back a hundred years, the only person that was doing any series form of physical training was the guy in the circus with a handlebar, a station, a leopard print, single it. That's true.

And whereas now, you know, you, you, you, it's almost, you're almost a freak if you don't have some sort of exercise routine. But there's no norms around, or at least I don't think that there is still there's so much wool Attached to meditation. There's so much stigma attached to therapy. I wondered what your thoughts were on that My thoughts are dead It's a shame that people often only come to therapy when they're in real trouble. Of course, do come to therapy when you're in real trouble, but also come when you're well.

So you might go to the gym when you're already in great shape because you want to maintain that and you also might want to refine yourself and do even better and feel even better. And the same goes for therapy that you can be living a good life, but you might be able to make it even better. And it should just be for the very distressed people. Again, it should also be for the very distressed people, but it shouldn't be exclusive to that. So I think there's a myth that you have to be sick

in order to get help. The thing that I think about when I talk about sobriety, some of the sobriety advocate despite also being a club promoter. And the fact that people are only, they only consider themselves to be able to go sober if they have some sort of dependency. Yeah. In the same way as people only go to therapy when they've got something wrong.

I love that. And I love that you can be an advocate for sobriety without having to be a recovering addict. That's the same as therapy, right? It is, and the gym analogies can absolutely perfect that not only fat people that have some sort of real, real problem goes to the gym. There's more fit people in the gym than they're out of you. Look at how

it skews. It skews towards people that are in shape rather than out of shape. Yeah. Yeah. And I wonder what therapy needs to do to break that? To have a makeover so that it just doesn't feel that way so that healthy people feel encouraged to work on themselves emotionally. I think one of the issues we're doing any kind of internal work, slash, self-reflective stuff, is that the fruits of your labor are not immediately visible to all around you, which inherently has like a marketing branding implication, implication, you know,

I can't do, so I've meditated consistently for the last three years, but there's no like mental six pack that I'm rocking. I know, I know. I mean, that's the thing. It's very subtle how shifts take place in therapy as well. So someone might say, actually, I'm realizing that I'm a lot more comfortable with myself. I mean, of course, I'll keep confidentiality and I'm making sure everything I say here is anonymous. But I've had clients describe certain social encounters where they now feel more at ease in their own skin. You see a colleague who used to kind of trigger you and make you doubt yourself, and suddenly you feel more robust. You have a bit who used to kind of trigger you and make you doubt yourself and suddenly

you feel more robust. You have a bit more ego strength. It's subtle, invisible shifts like that where it's quite transformative and hugely powerful in your sense of self, but it's so internal. The world isn't going to see that, oh my god, you look amazing. When you go to the gym, people might say, you're in such great shape. What have you been working out? No one's going to say, have you been in therapy because you seem a lot more secure? They should. We should start saying things like that. That would be nice. I totally get what you

mean as well. The fact that there isn't this this outward display of the way that you look and as well when these changes are subtle, when they are as very fine as you identify, there's no like bench press personal best for mood. And because of that, it's incredibly difficult to work out where the discrete quantifiable Markers of progress have been struck Mm-hmm. Few few people that are measuring their mood accurately Like without all of the biases that were lumbering

with us. Sure But my god those those changes are quite remarkable. So I saw a friend the other evening for dinner. I went for dinner with a friend and her husband. The husband used to have level one conversations with me. I would ask him how his life was, how's work, how's your family, and we would kind of stay at that service level. And I referred him for therapy about six months ago. And I really noticed the change.

I didn't say it to him in that moment because I actually thought that might make him uncomfortable. But we spoke about things with such depth and candor and he was so accessible and open and he allowed himself to be surprised. It wasn't a kind of scripted conversation. It was really delightful. I could see the difference. I kind of wish I could capture that in some way because it's just what you're talking about. But he's opened up.

And he's opened up to himself. He was clearly more at ease in discussing difficulties. And the conversation was much more energetic. I mean, actually when you stay at the surface level, it's quite tedious sometimes. You bore yourself, you bore the other person, you're just kind of staying in safe territory. And we went so much further into such interesting terrain.

It's interesting that people yearn, almost all of us yearn for really interesting conversations. It's the selfish reason why I do this podcast. It's also the reason why I think the media, the medium itself of podcasting is successful because people are lacking in that particular sort of nourishment. They go to Joe Rogan because he is a really, really good conversation list. And they get to listen to someone that they think, fuck, I won't, I'm his best friend. But you know, to fly the flag for why I think it's a good idea and the listeners will know what I'm about to say, if you're not having a conversation with someone for between 30

minutes and an hour, once per week at least, where your phone's on in the room and you're fully in the moment about whatever it is that you're talking about, trying to really, really delve and deconstruct exactly what it is that you're on about. And this can be anything. This can be sport. This can be whatever you don't pick your passion. This can be pain in poetry, the weather, whatever it is that you want to talk about, political climate. But if you're not doing that, you are, in my view, you're lacking in the same way as if you only had one type of vegetables, or if you only had one type of meat. I like it. I like what you're saying.

Good. Yeah. I think there is something you've just mentioned that's really important to acknowledge as well, which is the lack of distraction. So when you're sitting in a room having therapy, as you say, your phone isn't there. Well, I mean, you should put your phone on silent and put it away. You aren't eating. You might have a drink, but you're actually not hiding and you're really knows to know.

And one of the things that happens, making a huge generalization here, men in particular tend still to have more side-by-side conversations. If you're watching this sports game, if you're at a bar, I mean, the world is changing, so men do have eye-to-eye conversations and they go for dinner and they do more of that. But even then, there are a lot of distractions and there is something about being completely kind of emotionally naked with another person where you can really confront yourself. And I think that also scares people. I think that can make therapy intimidating because it's easier to hide behind your phone and to be in some loud place and have lots of distraction.

But when you can realize that you can actually bear it, it's kind of empowering and invigorating when you discovered that actually you can confront your own mind and you're okay. That's the fear, isn't it? The fear that people have is, I will distract myself. I will nerf the harsh edges of reality so that I don't

need to feel feelings as hard. It really does suck. Obviously, them comes at a greater cost. That's a great way to put it. We've touched on it there about the fact that therapy might be an intimidating process. So why don't you talk us through what happened? So I'm a client, I'm coming in to sit down. What do we do in them? You said, I'm not lying on the couch staring at the ceiling with my eyes closed.

That's what's that, which one's on? That's psychoanalysis. Okay. And nor are you getting prescription medication, which would be psychiatry. So psychotherapy is, I'm just gonna add one more distinction. It's different from counseling. Counseling is usually shorter term and counselors have fewer years of training. Psychotherapists have all had their own psychotherapy.

Let's start with that. Again, that comes from Freud, who felt that every psychoanalyst needed to have been analyzed. So in a way we are practicing, we're preaching what we have practiced. We're not complete hypocrites. When you see a psychotherapist, you know that person has been on the other side. Which I think is a great leveler. And it's very different from other medical professions where you do not know that your psychiatrist has taken every medication

he's prescribing you, maybe he has, but it's very much kind of person to person. It's more egalitarian in that way, rather than just patient to expert. Although again, you are going to someone where you can trust that they hear she will be seasoned and have some idea what they're doing. So what happens in your first session? A therapist will ask you questions in the first session. It's information gathering. So in the assessment, there will be a kind of exploration of your personal history, what

brings you to therapy, what your childhood was like. We do look at the past at the School of Life, but really only for the sake of helping you get where you want to be going. So we don't just take you to the past and leave you there, which I think is one major fear of psychotherapy and something that's historically been a great problem, that you will sit there and you will just mone about something that happened when you were 10 years old and then you'll be left in a pool of tears and that's it.

What was the point of that? We're not going to do that. You may remember something from when you were 10 years old and it could be really useful for figuring out its impact on you now and why it's blocking you from doing something you want to be doing in your present life. So we're very much focused on where you want to be going. And I think the future comes into the work, your goals come into the work a great deal. It's not just some kind of misery fest, but it is a space where anything is acceptable, and I think radical acceptance is a key property

of good therapy, that you discover that you can be radically accepted by another human being. You could say, obscene things. You could describe some outrageous fantasy you have. We are adamant about distinguishing fantasy from reality. So let's say you want to murder someone. We really understand the difference

between wanting to murder someone and going out and doing it. And discovering that you can explore those dark shadowy parts of your mind is quite exhilarating, I think. And actually quite reassuring because you discover, actually, I'm not gonna go and murder this person. I don't even fully want to murder this person, but I can get in touch with that part of myself and it's okay.

Interesting to think about how so few of the conversations that we have are free from that trapping, right? Free from the, I have to be careful of what I say because first I've confidentiality's a concern. I'm talking to Johnny, but I know that Johnny knows Rob and I'm talking bad about Rob and if Johnny tells Rob I'm going to be in shit, so I'd better if Johnny tells Rob I'm gonna be in shit, so I'd better essentially not even think the things I'm thinking. And one of the things that I realized upon,

and I know that I was like 20 years too late, but upon reading 1984 last year for the first time, which if anyone has a read that they need to go through, this one like a fairly easy fiction book, highly highly recommended, super, super, like worth, absolutely worth all of the accolades it's got. And one of the things that I realized there was, if you are unable to articulate a thought, it is precisely the same as you not having the thought. In terms of real world usability, because if you don't have the words to say the things

that are in your head, and they never, first off, they never leave your head, but they also stay within your head as this very cloudy, very nebulous, very ephemeral kind of wishy washy sand in your hands, type like trying to hold onto it situation. And I found it incredibly fascinating to reflect on the fact that your ability to articulate the things that are in your head is directly proportional to your ability to feel the things that are in your head. That's so interesting. and such a good point. One of the things that can happen in therapy is that you dare to narrate your life in a

different way. You might discover that you have a deep ambition to do something professionally, but you haven't really had a space to test it out. You think you might be stupid and clumsy. You don't know that you have any idea what you're talking about. And you need, again, that safe space where you can, you can try something out and see where you go with it. So one of the analogies that I really like is Paul Clay, the Bauhaus artist,

talked about taking a line for a walk. And that was how he came up with a lot of his drawings. And I think, conversational, you can do the equivalent in psychotherapy where you take a line for a walk. You don't have to know where you will end up, but you may discover something really exciting about yourself, and it's sort of telling the story of who you are. So back to your point about 1984, and if you don't have the words, then you don't really have the thought. If you've never been able to have certain conversations about yourself, if you've never really been able to tell the story of who you are, then it's going to be nebulous and

possibly out of reach and not as available to you. So therapy can make ideas more available to you and people can feel incredibly motivated, crystallized, energized. A lot can become possible and that can take shape in realizing what you want in a relationship, realizing what you want in a career out of life. There's very few conversations, I think, that people have where they are completely able to say whatever it is that they want. And it kind of brings in all of the different elements of what we've spoken about. So talking about the confidentiality concern, the signaling concern, the reputational concern, you know, what is even less than that, just the embarrassment of having to utter particular words to someone, getting over that itself is a real challenge. Sure, and also, is it okay for me to be

on such poor form with this person? Well, when you're with a therapist, you can be on whatever form you want to be in. And if you feel self-conscious and you think I'm just being so miserable, is this horrible to be around? You can say it. Again, my biggest advice is to speak up with radical honesty. So say, if you're feeling a certain way, say if you're bothered by your therapist, say if you're deeply moved by something your therapist has said, but speak up, do not hold back. It always kind of makes me sad when people say, oh, I really felt misunderstood by my therapist, but I didn't say anything. I'd say something. People that, so they're so used to being polite to not hurting someone else's feelings. So for the listeners who don't know, I'm currently undergoing some sessions myself, I've found it fascinating the discussion about why we should have therapy and it's been a really

interesting experience so far. But one of the things that's continually identified is basically an offering, this really odd offering of the therapist asking, does that annoy you? Or has anything that I've said irritated you? It's like, a living feedback in such an unusual way. The only people who say, does that annoy you in the past, in my life, has been someone passive aggressively

kind wanting you to say yes, so that you can spark off some sort of, or maybe doing it as like a low key put down. Sure. Interact. To hear that sentence, to hear, does that annoy you, or does that irritate you when it doesn't, especially when it doesn't as well, it's like, I needed new programming to

work out. That's so interesting. Because I wonder if, in your case, the therapist was picking up on something for how you come across and if that's useful for you to understand, did you seem like you were annoyed? I'm not sure. I definitely have resting bitch face, which might not help. But good feedback to have, good to know that that's how you come across.

I knew I've known I've had resting bitch face for a long time, but yeah, no, you are right. So you mentioned earlier on about some of the fears that people have when they go in, they're going to be left in this sort of wallowing pit of bad memories and history and stuff. How do you, what are the processes that you can go through to kind of keep the momentum going so that people aren't left there? I think it's really about identifying what you want to achieve out of therapy and doing an inventory is very important. I do want to go back.

May I go back to something you just said about your therapy experience, if I may? There can be incredible moments of meeting where you feel ecstatically understood by your therapist. And there can also be moments of misatunement and disconnect. And I think those are equally valuable because it's the discovery and acceptance that you cannot be entirely understood at every moment by another human being or even by yourself. And that has to be tolerated. So sometimes human being or even by yourself. And that has to be tolerated. So sometimes we go around just assuming that everyone understands our intention

and that we understand what someone else thinks. So you think that colleague snubbed me, she must hate me. And actually, you just have no idea what's going on for her. So if your therapist is saying, did that irritate you? And it genuinely didn't.

I think that's really interesting for considering that sometimes we need to unpack things and we don't immediately understand. And and that's okay. But it explains a lot. It explains why things can be complicated and go wrong. Interpersonally. Why we why we feel offended. Why may offend inadvertently all of those things. The social situations incredibly messy. And you know, it although we all have to sort of operate within that world, the world of other people, it does it does amaze me sometimes that fewer problems occur because there's so many different interplaying pulls on our desires and our fears and our sadness and our vengefulness and bitterness

and resentment and all of those different things that occur. And when you've got, let's say you work in an office, it's got a hundred people there. It absolutely blows my mind on a daily basis that there aren't just outright fights or miniature civil wars. We've got this stupid 200,000 year old programming and then I've just been thrust into this world that's existed for like a couple of hundred years With hyper connectivity and now everyone's expected to be fucking civil Everyone's expected to not kill their neighbor because the dog barks or you know the the equivalent of someone taking some of your land or You know doing something that destroyed your quality of life or whatever it might be. And then we, you know, you stop marrying the person that lives in the county next to you because it allows your families to join in power and all the, you know, everything is changing so,

so quickly. And the fact that we aren't just constantly ripping each other's heads off or sat in a pool of our aunties and feces in the corner of the room is... We're quite civilized. Almost. There's a lot of our aunties and feces in the corner of the room is... We're quite civilized. Almost. There's a lot of restraint. There is, and I think that probably some of that restraint, some of that overcivility, it is one of the causes that manifest these problems, right? It is people realize just how much they've had to not say for a very long time. Completely. And Freud actually argued that we need

repression for civilization. In civilization and its discontent, he describes the need for it because otherwise we would just be sitting in our feces and obsessing over death. I mean those would be the two main things and killing each other. So a little bit of repression is essential for functionality. But I think it goes well with acknowledgement and awareness. So if you have that designated space for radical honesty, then you can also contain yourself and manage yourself, I think in a much more productive, useful way, in the rest of your life, it doesn't have to spill out. I think when people are untherapized, there can be a lot of spillage. That's a question that I wanted to ask. How do you ensure that you don't start opening up in psychotherapy and spend a bit of time

revealing your inner workings to this person and then you step outside of the therapy room and you're now this big glass box who's just transparent to everyone and you're telling them all about your rampant erectile dysfunction and how you've got incontinence again at like 41 and blah blah. Well, I think it really helps to know the therapeutic frame that again, it's that 50 minute hour that is yours and it's all about context. It is a safe space. That doesn't mean that you leave and everything in the world is a safe space.

And I think knowing the line of demarcation is incredibly important. And again, I actually think it can contain and manage self-regulation in a very helpful way. So yes, you might feel a bit vulnerable if you've had a particularly intense grueling session. Be aware of that and maybe go for a walk after because you may have unpacked a lot and it's a lot to then go back into the real world and have to kind of have a chitchat with people and get on with things. Sometimes clients schedule sessions at certain times of day for that reason actually. They prefer to do it after work rather than before work. Other people are okay but I

think it's about knowing yourself and being self-aware enough to recognize the impact. So I also think it goes both ways by the way for therapists. I know for me when I've had a lot of sessions I need to go for a walk. I don't want to immediately start chitchatting with people or rush home. I need to have that space to process and let things can percolate. So it does go both ways. I'm revealing the other side of things. But I think that containment is a big thing. So it doesn't mean that you're just going to be a complete mess if you go to therapy and freak out to everyone you know.

That's a fear that people have, right? They think that it is going to turn them into some overly emotional puddle that can kind of just be swept around on the floor. I'm going to be doing a podcast next year with one of my buddies Andrew and he has some criticisms, he has some unique criticisms about how he sees, I think he would probably call it the weakening of men is how he would refer to it. And me and him stand on opposite sides with this particular debate, civilly, I'll have to say. But yeah, one of his concerns is that there's this, there's typical masculine traits where men should be not acknowledging their vulnerability, not acknowledging their weaknesses because this is, this is not the way that a man should be. It's not the role

that he's supposed to have within society for himself or other people, et cetera. And that's a fear, you know, whether it low-key or explicitly stated, I certainly think that emotional vulnerability is something which is not wildly praised in modern society, especially specifically for men. So yeah, I can imagine that that a fear that you come up against. Absolutely. And I think therapy can make life richer. It doesn't always make it simpler.

That is true. So I don't want to be overly defensive about it. Because it can make things more exposed. I had one client who said it was like wearing glasses for the first time. He described how when he finally got glasses, he saw how dirty the world was. There's actually grime and filth everywhere that he'd never been aware of

because he'd seen things in a blurry way. And therapy did the same thing. He could suddenly see that there was a lot of filth and it was hard for him. But the difficulty of seeing that filth was still worthwhile in his case anyway, because it because it added richness and texture and yes, complexity. But he was seeing things in a sharper way. So I guess it's always about measuring what it is that you want.

I also think that therapy can be very bolstering because you discovered that vulnerability can actually be a strength. You discovered that it can be a part of you, but it doesn't have to own you. So back to that fear that you're going to just be an emotional puddle. I think discovering that you can talk about unbelievable hardship and then you can go out into the world and you can handle it is quite something. It's the way that people make their progress in the gym right. Its progressive overload is king in all areas you gradually expand that domain of competence over time and you increasingly bear a heavier and a heavier load. From my particular perspective, I have to agree. I think one of the most endearing things that any person can do is to be vulnerable.

Like your friends, I think it's in an emotional education, the book. When someone tells you something which could be socially catastrophic in the wrong hands, but gives you the faith that it is yours and puts their trust in you and also opens up and says, look, this is truly, honestly, openly me. You know, there's few things that are as endearing as that. Sure. It's incredible when someone opens up to you

and it feels like a privilege. Do you find it difficult and do many therapists find it difficult to not become emotionally invested in their clients? I don't think we have to not be invested. I think we can care about our clients. In fact, I think conspicuously caring can go a long way. Sometimes I agree with Forensie who was an act of Freud's, although he then acted

out and was very badly behaved. So he made a lot of mistakes. But one of the things he said was it's the love of the physician that heals. I think that allowing for affection and care and concern is very important. And I actually think if you go to a therapist and you don't feel any rapport and you feel like that therapist doesn't care one bit about you, that's a huge problem. And at least something that should be explored. Again, maybe it's your insecurity, maybe maybe it's something about the therapist not conveying the concern, but test it, work it out. How about from your perspective as a therapist? is it challenging to not take your work home with you?

You find someone that you like, a client that is particularly likable or you have a the therapist equipment of a soft spot for, is it difficult to not, you know, they tell you this really harrowing story or the incredibly story or they, you know, incredibly whatever it might be, like, how do you not let that bleed between the different sessions? I think we're allowed to care and, yes, there can be compassion fatigue and we need support for that reason we have supervision. Every therapist has supervision, which is a safe space where you discuss your caseload. We are also very close as a team at the School of Life, so having conversations, I were always incredibly discreet

and we keep confidential. I'll be completely, but I think having conversations with other professionals where you're all in it together can be very supportive and self-care matters hugely in this profession To answer your question. Sometimes things do stay with you. I don't see that necessarily as being deeply problematic I would rather be affected by my work than indifferent It's a big sacrifice to make I suppose in some regards Yes, and it's also such a privilege to get to have interesting conversations and understand the inner workings of someone else's mind. It's incredible.

Yeah, it is. So one thing that I've been considering throughout the conversation you've highlighted the difference between psychotherapy and psychoanalysis and psychiatry and counseling Where would coaching of some kind? Where's the line drawn with with with someone who gives advice? coaching is much more directive and it can mean many things.

So I don't want to overly elaborate when this is not my area of expertise, except that it doesn't necessarily unpack and look at the source of all difficulties as much. But again, I can imagine coaches arguing. There can be lots of debates about the difference between coaching and therapy. I can really only speak for therapy. I don't want to offend. We've offended lots of people already. That's fine. People get offended at everything. Yeah. The coaching thing for me, one of the interesting lines that I'd seen that's been drawn is during sessions of therapy, there isn't that you write that directiveness that advisory here is a strategy that I think

takes into account the inputs and is a potential new output for you. Like that doesn't appear to really have a place in psychotherapy. It's more about working through the things you have to then allow whatever movement that you go forward with to be less, to be more unencumbered, I suppose. Yeah, yeah. I think that's really well said. Where did you get that idea? I don't, I've got this really cool friend at the School of Life and she's, she's, we went for this conversation a couple of months ago, so but yeah, so have you got any we're coming towards the end now? Have you got any

studies or any revelations that you've come across in your work which you think is particularly interesting? So we spoke about the the 50 50 minute hour I wanted to ask about why that was the case. Is it simply an operative thing? That the therapist requires 10 minutes to go and... Some of it, is that? Yes.

Ever we eat a drink of water. But it also seems to have a natural rhythm. It is a good amount of time. It works well. It works well for giving you enough space without just going on too long. I think the boundaries of therapy are so key. So knowing that there's a start finish, that's the other thing. Back to your question about what distinguishes it from other types of conversations. You know the start time,

you know the finish time. So as scary as it may seem, you know exactly what you're in for. They're, they're lines. And sometimes I think a big part of social anxiety is not knowing what you're in for. So you're at a house party and someone stops you when you're on your way to the bathroom and how long are you going to stand in the hallway having awkward to chat with this person. If you're sitting at dinner, how long is this dinner going to go on? It's very rare. Other than kids' parties, where you know the start time and the finish time, it's very rare to actually know the structure. And I think that can make us nervous and uneasy and feel trapped. So you're not trapped

with therapy. It's very much autonomous. I have not answered your question. What studies do I particularly like? That was what I wanted to know about the reason for the 50 minute hour. That was that was good. But I also wondered if you wanted to allow yourself to indulge academically with any of this stuff that you've come across recently or old schooly stuff that you like? Yolum, we just love Yolum. He is absolutely riveting and I haven't mentioned him today, so I need to because he's our total hero. He's 88 years old. He is one of the liveliest writers he'll ever come across. Read anything by him.

His memoir, becoming myself is just so excellent. He's all about being human. He discloses quite a lot, but he's also rigorous. I mean, one of the problems with being overly sloppily disclosing is that it can seem kind of undisciplined. So you want a therapist who's human, but who's also really seasoned, who knows his or her stuff, who isn't just sitting there having some kind of meandering tit chat. If anyone is curious and wants to understand the mind of a brilliant psychotherapist, read, read, read y'all. How'd you spell it? Y-A-L-O-M. And his, his writing is playful as well, it's enjoyable. There's a great problem in a lot of psychotherapy literature,

which is that it's very turgid and hard to read, and it can remain in its own echo chamber for that reason. It's not totally public facing. Yolum opens it up and makes it accessible. He also fictionalizes, so he tells stories. And I think that's really transformed the field of psychotherapy because Because people can read about it who aren't just inside the profession What do you think's happening with this Togidity within the the field of psychotherapy is it a

Hardness in response to trying to be more to appear more scientific? Very possibly. I think it's also an insecurity. I mean, by deliberately obfuscating, you can feel superior and expertly. You do see it in different industries. You see it with doctors. I mean, not all doctors, of course. I think great doctors break things down and make them not all doctors, of course, I think great doctors break things down and make them make situations explainable so that you're not just in the dark, but it can be a way of marking superiority to throw terms that you that you can't possibly understand. And then, and then it's intimidating. So I think sometimes psychotherapists are guilty of that by just speaking about, and I threw some terms at you.

I probably sound like a hypocrite because I said existential humanism. But if you want the terms, we want to learn those things. If you start saying, I work phenomenologically vis-a-vis hermeneutics. Then you can end up just thinking, okay, I better not argue because she knows what she's talking about because I didn't understand any of that. And it should be accessible. There again, that's where Alan is brilliant because he's unafraid to simplify, but that doesn't mean it is impact with intelligence and wisdom. But it takes a certain type of courage to say things in a clear way. We were discussing this last night, myself and Chris Sparks, one of my buddies, and we were talking about the fact I think I'm particularly bad on Twitter because I'm not like one of these

max him to go up on your wall, live laugh, love, guys. Like that's not, that's not my bag. Give me a thousand words. I can probably like half far as semi competent concept out. But I also think that there is, there is a laziness that's inherent in being that verbose. Like the fact that you have to take up so much time, it's like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Like tell me, what is the tip of the spear of exactly what it is that you're talking about? If you can't distill it down, if you can't explain it to a child, then essentially you don't know it, right? Right, right. But don't you think it takes a certain kind of courage to go there, to make things accessible? I think so, because it requires you to use the language of the everyday proletariat, right?

Like you've got to use the just normal terminology. There's nothing special about this. You're letting go of all of the trappings and trimmings of the, you've done five years. What did you say? It was five years of consistent psychotherapy to become a therapist. Like you have to receive it.

Yeah. So you've got to do that. Then you've done all your therapist. Like you have to receive it. Yeah. So you've got to do that. Then you've done all your qualifications. You've been all these seminars. You know, all the practice clients, I'm going to guess that you have had to have done and all this sort of stuff. And then you start using words like,

Out of practice clients minimum. How many? 450 hours. Quite a lot. And you've done all this work. And then you've got to go like, start using words like feeling. And you've done all this work and then you've got to go like start using words like feeling and you want to go back to basics. Yeah, you want to be able to because you are right, there's certain industries that lend

themselves to this academic elitism because it's actually required. You can't talk about the CRP2 gene metastasizing into this cancer because that is what it is, right? The medical profession particularly, or your engineering rocket science. You don't talk about it in terms of like up and down. It's specific terminology and I wonder how much of it is bizarrely from a group that really shouldn't be doing it. It's a little bit of signaling from a group that really shouldn't be doing it, is a little bit of signaling from psychotherapists. Really good point. Really interesting angle.

I'm not saying, you know what I'm saying. So we've got Yolum, we've got, if someone was gonna read something from Freud, is there anything that's accessible from him? There's plenty that's accessible, actually. Some of his case studies are written like short stories in a really beautiful way I would say civilization and its discontent is just wonderful. I also think he wrote Just the most beautiful small essay called on transients and

It was based on a walk he went on with the poet Rilka Where they're arguing about whether or not it's horrendous that time passes. And Rilka is freaking out because he's looking at flowers and beautiful things in nature and he's just lamenting the passage of time. He can't bear that it's also fleeting. And Freud argues that it's this that kind of makes up the essence of life and that gives us meaning and It's ridiculous in a way for Rilka to dispute that and You can relate to both of them. I'd probably relate more to Rilka and he's kind of mortality fit

But it's such a beautiful interesting essay for those of us who struggle with time passing I'm definitely one of them. It's another issue that comes up in therapy. And by the way, I think one of the important things to realize about therapies that sometimes you just can have someone bear witness to your struggles. It doesn't mean every problem will be solved. So something like the passing of time, mortality. Those are horrendous facts of life. And I mean, not entirely horrendous. you can find the beauty in them too. Sometimes you just need someone to bear witness. It doesn't mean that the therapist will make it go away

or say that everything is just dandy, but just having someone else acknowledge those struggles is very reassuring in its way and confirming. So yes, on transientient, excellent essay. I also think anything written by Winnicott is wonderful. We love him at the School of Life. We think he is like a warm hug. He writes with warmth, compassion, great wisdom.

He came up with the concept of good enough, which is pretty vital. What's that concept? How would you describe it? The concept is letting go of perfectionism and embracing good enough, and it was particularly revelatory for thinking about motherhood. He was in 1950s Britain as a leading pediatrician and child psychoanalyst. And he transformed the landscape of maternal expectations by thinking that actually the mother should aim to just be good enough. I mean, we still need to be reminded of that. Because before that, believe it or not,

mothers were expected to be more than good enough. So it's, again, it's very consistent with the School of Life's ethos of managing expectations, being a little bit pessimistic, and then pleasantly surprised when things are okay, not overly demanding perfection. I think that's a good way to go about life. Yeah, agreed. So, um, if anyone wants to find out any more, where should they head? They wanted to learn about the School of Life Psychotherapy or any other, like a good psychotherapist, near me, or whatever is there a body or something? Yes, I mean, I think you can look at the

counseling directory. The thing is, and I don't want to just advocate, of course, I think you can look at the counseling directory. The thing is, and I don't wanna just advocate, of course, I personally vetted and selected the therapist at the School of Life. So I'm very confident in recommending them, but I'm not saying that absolutely everyone needs to go there and only there to get good therapy. The thing that matters most is the therapeutic relationship. Whoever you go to assess that therapist, ask questions.

Do not just assume that that therapist has to be right for you. If you feel that there is no chance of this therapist understanding you, forget it. And that, to me, is the great litmus test for whether or not it's going to stand a chance of being effective. And if you think, God, this therapist may not get everything right, but he or she really seems to get me and has made some quite insightful remarks that are very pertinent to me, then do give it a chance. But it's really that felt sense. So you have to also determine whether or not it feels like the right dynamic.

determine whether or not it feels like the right dynamic. I think it's definitely a challenge when you go into that sort of a situation. You're wanting to be open, but also you're trying not to be judgmental of yourself, but you need to somehow retain some degree of assessment of the person who you are, you're going through therapy with, I imagine that for a lot of people, there must be some challenges with doing that about just how, how good that that particular um, like ability that appropriateness is. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. your own experiences. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yes, so if you do want therapy from the School of Life, go to the website and we offer online sessions as well as in person, I don't know what your personal view is of that.

If you're having in-person sessions or online. Online, so I have to say that going face to face, it's one thing that's been really challenging for me, has been to take myself out of the podcast mindset. So, you know, I wanna host the therapist, I wanna be like, that's a really interesting this. So why don't we talk about it? And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

this is the one time that you are talking camera to camera on microphone, and this is not your job to try and host this conversation and try and elicit something from some interesting insight from the person you're speaking to. It's a very much so and I guess it's... Well, we're intellectualized sometimes as well. Incredibly cerebral, yeah. You know, if I was to put Johnny and Yusuf, the two guys that come and guests on the show

with me, if I was to put them in therapy as well, I'm going to guess that they would face the same struggles that I do, which is that I try to rationalize an awful lot, trying to cerebral breakdown, justify the answer, what is the why, why is the this, oh, that's an interesting, and I can feel myself getting pulled by somatic dope from earlier in my life that I think with Landwell.

And I'm like, what are you doing? You're not here to do that. You're not here to try and have an anecdote Landwell, yeah. The need to dazzle is an interesting one as well. Yeah, I do sometimes dazzle. Well, you're so clearly charming and gregarious in a great conversationalist, but allowing yourself to be dull would be very interesting in your therapy. I would recommend it if you can take that risk of being ordinary, of not being incredibly

impressive and clever. I knew there was a reason that I brought you onto this podcast. Anyway, look, it has been absolutely awesome. I really hope that we've opened some people's eyes today. I genuinely do think that this topic about why people might need therapy, a lot more people than believe it, and why people that aren't just in catastrophic turmoil shouldn't. Aren't the only people that go there in the same way as it's not just fit people that go to the gym, it shouldn't just be people that are in catastrophe that go and get therapy. It's not just people who have

a dependency on alcohol that can use subrite, is a tool to make their lives better. There's this common theme that's moving through an awful lot of it. You don't just need to wear elephant pants to do meditation. So no problem too big or too small for therapy. I like it. Look, Charlotte. It's been absolutely awesome Links to everything. We need to do more I'll come down I'll come down and I'll see I've also Through a mutual friend another shout out to Abby the girl who got me a Robert Green Elaine's gonna come on Partway through next year so she's managed to do an intro with us there,

which would be really, really fun. But yeah, links to everything that we've spoken about, School of Life, Psychotherapy, Freud on Transeans, Winnicots work, Yaloms work, plus everything else will be linked in the show notes below. If you've enjoyed the episode, you know what to do, like, share and subscribe. Also, comments below, I'll be checking them out,

or give me your thoughts if you want to ask me about my Experience with therapy feel free at Chris well X wherever you follow me. But for now Charlotte. It's been awesome. Thank you you