Modern Wisdom - #136 - Tucker Max - Personal Growth, Dating & Psychedelics

Episode Date: January 23, 2020

Tucker Max is an author, speaker and the Co-Founder of Scribe. How do you go from being a professional asshole to a dad? From beer bongs to boardrooms and drunken nights to ayahuasca retreats? There's a transition we all have to go through from the person we were to the person we want to be. Many of us go through this multiple times. But how do we know when it's time to change, and how can we let go of the people we used to be? Extra Stuff: Check out Tucker's company Scribe - https://scribemedia.com/ Follow Tucker on Twitter - https://twitter.com/TuckerMax Take a break from alcohol and upgrade your life - https://6monthssober.com/podcast Check out everything I recommend from books to products - https://www.amazon.co.uk/shop/modernwisdom - Get in touch. Join the discussion with me and other like minded listeners in the episode comments on the MW YouTube Channel or message me... Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/ModernWisdomPodcast Email: https://www.chriswillx.com/contact Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello friends, welcome back to Modern Wisdom. My guest today is Tucker Maxx, New York Times best selling author several times over, the man behind scribe media and creator of the fratire literary genre. But for a while he was also a professional arsel, I don't think he'll mind me saying that. And I wanted to ask him about how you transition from being a party guy, sleeping with loads of girls, getting drunk all the time, embarrassing stories, how you grow out of that. It's an archetype that everybody knows, right? Everyone knows a bro who's still drinking and partying a little bit too late into their

years. How do you go from being that to being a dad, to being a business leader, to being a figurehead within the industry of writing, all that sort of stuff. And we go real deep today, so we talk about psychedelics, we talk about introspective work, asking yourself hard questions, learning what your truth is. It's absolutely jam-packed. Tooker is a wise old soul trapped in a younger man's body, I think there's some absolute gold in this episode so make sure you give it a share with someone who this could really help or if you're new here press the subscribe button you will get two episodes with the world's most fascinating

humans delivered into your ears every Monday and Thursday but for now please welcome welcome Tucker Maxx. There you go, okay, the button is just gonna open. Like if the button didn't come off, then it's not recording, it's not. I get it. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back. I'm joined by Tucker Maxx. Tucker, look at the show. Thank you, thanks for having me. Pleasure to have you on, man. I was saying earlier, I posted out that I was gonna have

you on the show and my DMs have just been on fire all day. Originally, we were just gonna talk about scribe media and we're gonna go into the nuances of book writing and stuff like that. We're going to get into that. But I think there's some other bits that I'd love to get into first. So to kind of set the scene for people who might not fully know your backstory, how do you get to where you are now? Head of scribe media, best selling author, but sort of how do you get there? Right, so it's a long backstory. So I'll hit the highlights and then you can kind of dive into

wherever you want. Cool. Let me, so let's see out. Went to undergrad University of Chicago, law school at Duke, and then got fired from being a lawyer in three weeks. My dad fired me from the family business in six months. Then didn't really know what to do. Found my way into writing emails to my friends that they thought were hilarious. And through a long series of sort of stuff, I ended up putting myself up on a website, my stories. They blew up.

Got a ton of attention. MTV, girl sued me, it was all the sort of normal controversy. And then, so I ended up writing a book, became I hope they served beer and hell, which the New York Times had invented a literary genre called Fraet Tyron is sold, you know, a million and a half copies now or more, worldwide, translated into whatever it is,

30 or 40 languages, something. And then wrote two more books. Well, first there was a movie made about that book, about my life. And then the two more books, Asel's Finish First, The Lairdian Sears, sorry, it's not a second, three more books. Those are all told of sold, I don't know,

three and a half, four million ish. And then did a few other things. The big thing was start, scribe. Like I said, a bunch through last of me, how do I write and publish a book? And so I started a company that helps people do that. And it's five years later, and we did David Goggins book, which is huge and Tiffany Haddish and a bunch of others. And so here we are. Man, what a story. I love how you said all of the normal sort of controversy. All of us are getting sued by ex-girlfriends and stuff on a consistent basis. There's funny. Yeah, so one of the things that I really wanted to delve into with you, because I think that you've got quite a unique insight on

this, because you've been so transparent in that journey, from going and being, you know, a classic party boy, right? The UK's got a big drinking culture, a big party culture. My job, I fill nightclubs. I've run nightclubs to 13 years. That's what I do, bread and butter, right? So I've seen like a million drunk people, ish, just over a million drunk people. So I know, I know what it looks like, and so does everyone that's listening. What I'm really interested in finding out is what happens when we go from, as men, young men, we go from being that guy who is living quite viscerally, party lifestyle, there's a point where it's for some people gradual, for some people sudden, but there's a point where you stop being that, and you start to be a

simulacrum of the guy that your dad is or was, or you know, a dad to be. You get me? Like there's not many dads that I know, even, you know, I've got some friends that are pretty loose. I don't know many of the dads that are out on the lash in the same way that are 22 year olds out on the lash. Yeah. And I really would feel that they're real shitty fathers. They're bad dads. Yeah, you're right.

So what was that process like for you? Because obviously you were still transparent, such a big part here. All of these sort of very well publicized experiences. And now you, a dad to wonderful kids. Three. Three. Three. Yeah.

Man, congratulations. How are you not up to the minute on my life? No, I'm kidding. Sorry. Sorry. It's so funny, dude. You're definitely English, because there is no American podcaster that would ever use the word

Simulaker. Like, I know what that means, but there is no American. Like, thank God I have like advanced degrees because most Americans have fuck as he's talking about what is a similar sorry all right so Yeah, you know, it's funny to me when my books came out like they blew up in America and all this controversy Whatever and all the English people were like what are the Americans up in arms about everyone does this this Do just got drunk and throw up and act like an idiot like no The British were like something thought it was funny something, but they were like why are you guys?

America's a whole different culture with that stuff man like my books in England would it like they did okay But they no one cares right because there was no element of Nottingness it's seediness, you know because there was no element of noddingness, it's seediness there, you know. But anyway, so how did I become a dad? So it's funny, at least in America, I'm not sure in England, in America the stereotype is the bad boy gets converted by his love for the right woman, right?

That's always how it works. And but that's never how it, that's always serious. It's never how it actually works. In America, if you're like a, you know, like the bad boys, younger guy, you kind of, there's two paths. There's two archetypes you can take. You can keep going, right? And like, play that up. Like I could have played, listen, I could have, I'm 44 now. I could be the 44 year old guy traveling the world still banging young girls and whatever I got to know those guys. They usually go on own bars or or promote night clubs a lot of them Or they you know, they get into that lifestyle or things that are similar entertainment business whatever

or you You basically like reform, right? Those are kind of the archetypes. But neither of those, or what, like I didn't wanna be the old creepy dude, like that was unappealing to me, but I wasn't gonna reform.

Like in terms of like, oh, what I did was bad, now I have to be good, that was bullshit to me. But what I did do, which is like not, it's an archetype, but it's not the way it plays out in America, is I did my work, right? So the question is always, not why do young people go out and drink and have fun? But why do some young people, especially,

and I was definitely one of them, go to ridiculous extremes with it, right? At least what I did in America was extreme. Might not be fringal, but for America it was. And so it's always a question of like why, right? And then I had to really, I made all this money, I did all this stuff. I basically got to the point where everything in my life was perfect, as good as it could be. I was in amazing shape.

I had money. I was rich. I was famous. I had girls, and I was way, way better off than when I was a poor and anonymous, right, and broke and starving and whatever. But like I still wasn't that happy, right? I wasn't that content. And so then I had to ask myself, at some point you realize

what the problem is for me, right? What sort of age was this? Can you remember? Huh? What sort of age was this? What sort of age was this? Do you remember? Huh? What sort of age was this?

34, 35, that's right after the movie. And so you have to make that decision. Do you realize the problem is you or not? And then most people don't, man. Most people think, no, the problem's always outside of me. So they spend the rest of their lives chasing money or success or women or drugs or whatever it is they use to run from their emotions. I don't mean that judgmentally, it's just because guy knows I was doing it for a long

time. But like, or they say they turn inwards and say, all right, I'm going to fix my shit. Right? And I started out about 30, it's called 35 really, an honest, and man, that's been a hard road, dude. Like, because it is, it's funny, it's like, I forget the booted, the booted, it's like, you know, something about, like it's not hard to conquer an army, it's hard to conquer yourself, right? And I thought when I was like 28, I'm like,

the dude I'm always talking about does some do with a bowl and a roll. Shut up, man. Now I'm like, that dude was wife. There's a reason people would listen to him for 5,000 years, right? Because turning inwards and dealing with your own shit was really hard. And so for me it started just a high level. I started with their talk therapy like psychoanalysis and that worked for like four years for me really well. Give me a good map of my mind and my emotions, but I didn't really feel a lot. Like it didn't it kind of I understood what was going on. Sort of like having a map of London and walking around the streets of one totally different things, right? And so that's what it gave me a map. And then I started working with a shaman for a while,

like an energy either. Not because I thought it would be a good idea. This woman just like, I like, I thought that was nonsense. And this woman did some shit with me once and like, my wife was like, why are you so different today? I'm like, what do you mean? She's like, no, no, you're way better. And I hadn't told her at all.

It feels like crap not gonna work with the fuck yeah this proves in the pudding. Exactly. Exactly. It was actually very frustrating for me. And so we're gonna for about a year and that was fine it worked well. Then it stopped working and then I did a few other things here and there nothing really worked that well. I mean I tried everything else yoga whatever all these you'll try, didn't work for me.

And then the last 18 months, man, I've made more progress and I probably made the other nine years combined. And that's with plant medicines. So like therapeutic, you know, psychotherapy, immune-assisted psychotherapy, you know, and still side-benecystid and that kind of stuff has just, man, it's like a startup. You see like slow growth and also they hit the rocket ship. I've hit the rocket ship.

I think I've still haven't really gotten into the serious stuff. It's just gone way better. Well, I say 18 months from you have been amazing, dude, the growth and all. And so how do I get to be where a dad to To answer that question, first I had to decide I wanted, I knew I wanted a family. And then I was like trying to date girls and they're like, yeah, I feel sucked. And then my analyst was like, this is a single analyst. She's like, well, who's this type of woman you want to meet?

And Mary. And so I like listed this woman. And she's like, it was like this amazing avatar of woman. And she's like, okay, would that girl want to date you? And I'm like, of course you would. I'm Rich and Famous. I'm also. Right.

And she's like, hold on Tucker, you may be Rich and Famous, but you're also sleeping with like two girls a week and blah, blah, blah, blah. Why is that girl gonna date you? Why is she gonna be one of many? Why? And I was like, so I had to go through that whole process. I had to get ready to meet my wife.

That was the big thing. And so like that, it wasn't, most people just fall into this man. And for me it was a conscious evolution with a lot of fits and starts and mistakes along the way. Does that answer your question? I kinda ran a little bit. Absolutely man, I got a million doorways open,

so I think we got lots to delve into. Firstly, yeah, I totally get what you mean. I'm currently rereading Mark Manson's models, and he talks a lot about that, right? About that compatibility, like, where are you finding the women that you want to date? Where are you going? Like, if you want someone that's intellectual

like going out to the club Five nights a week might not be the name sounds right. Yeah, for sure And you're actually flipping that on its head You're like I'm either sort of person that the sort of girl I want to date would want to date Certainly one of the things never even think I asked I question, but they're just because you never even think of it. I think that most men, because of the way that dating and romance is popularized, I think that most men presume that their job is to kind of be there. It's like, if I'm here and I'm not fat and my shirt's not got enough stuff on it and the girl turns up, there's no real, I don't know.

It just, I don't think there's a narrative that men have to follow that's, that's too good for that. But I mentioned before we started, I've kind of been immersed in, uh, Tucker Max over the last weekend. I've been traveling a lot, consuming a lot of the stuff that you've put out recently. One of the things that struck me is that you're very, very prepared to do introspective work and uncover quite ugly truths about yourself, which is something that over the last four years I've taken an almost cathartic pleasure in doing for myself. That really, strangely enjoyed it.

That challenge. And. Yeah, I don't enjoy it enjoyed it. That challenge. And yeah, I don't enjoy it. It's fucking terrible. You enjoy it good for you. Like I enjoy the results of it. I enjoy it being done. The process is never like, oh, let's tear the fucking visor off and look at that hard fierce truth.

It's awful and no one wants to know. I'm not like, let's do that. Oh, yeah, yeah, you're right. I'm not like, woo hoo, let's do that. Okay, yeah, you're right. I'm not excited about it ever. Yeah, the process is uncomfortable. I think my curiosity and my desire to kind of find out why about me, I think is pretty strong. So talk to us about sort of being able to see

transparencies, right? Because you were this guy, you had one kind of persona, even if that was you living your truth. And I think that you were, I don't think. It was at the time, no doubt. Yeah, 100%. Yeah. So as that truth starts to change,

there'll be parts of you that I want to cling onto the old you. And you know, girls that are listening, guys who maybe can't quite resonate with the young party guy, will still know this, right? You have these epochs of your life you have these little sections they're going through and you've got to how do you stop letting go of the last one you're the guy you're the party guy now you're the party the guy that used to be the party guy now you're the writer now you're the you know I mean like how do you

start so it's hard man so the metaphor the question's funny, man. I get this all the time. I'm 44 with three kids and a very mature business. We did eight figures in revenue last year. I'm not even a CEO. I hired a baller to run my company, right? And so I live in a huge house, the fucking pool, and a wine seller, and an insured wine seller, like all this source and I still get the dudes who like message me on Instagram or whatever

and it's like what the fuck man like when are we gonna get more stories and I'm like my response is always some version of the same you played with toy you played with dolls when you were 10 do you still play with them now that you're 25? And they're always like, ooh, it doesn't even occur to them. That if they think about it, obviously, but it doesn't occur to them that like life has phases and life has seasons.

And that certain things make a lot of sense in a certain season, make no sense in any other season, right? And especially with someone who's like celebrity or noteworthy, right? Because what happens, people don't realize, like, you have like a, okay, you see this with athletes all the time. People have a very emotionally intense relationship with an athlete in one stage of their life. Let's say, I don't know, whatever, 26 to like 33.

They're like huge, you know, Lionel Messi or Michael Jordan or LeBron James, like these. And so like, it doesn't matter, like for me, that was Michael Jordan when I was a young kid, right? Michael Jordan was the guy. And now Michael is like, you know, his 60s or whatever, he's like old, discussing a fat and he's in an assholes. Whole life, but now you really know. But still, like, people, like,

if he was a God to you when you were 15, then like, he's always a guy. And you like approach him that way, right? And you look at him like, and it's very frustrating because you can't, people don't look at you like a person, you're like an object, right? And so that's why a lot of those people get stuck is because they, first of all, they were at their peak then. They're never going to get bigger, right? In terms of whatever success it basketball, let's just say what George, he's never going to be

bigger at basketball than he was in the late 90s. It's just not possible, right? And then he has people around him who always look at him that way and so he stuck this, right? And that almost happened to me. Of course, I was nowhere near as big as Jordan, but like, and you could make that happen. And I'm not talking about just celebrities in anything. You could just be, you know, a good, I don't know, big and your little social circle, whatever. And it's the same dynamic.

You know how I always phrase it? You can tell a man's peak year in his life because his wardrobe freezes there. Like my grandfather, I could tell what his peak year was after he died, McLeodah's closet, because he didn't buy anything else from anything past that purity. He just froze his wardrobe right there, and he didn't change.

You think that's symbolic? He's trying to sort of hold onto that. Hold onto that. They hold onto the car, the clothes, whatever, most, right? And that was just something that I was never like, I tried for a little while to hold on, but I'm like, what am I doing there? I'm like, this isn't life, this isn't makes sense.

And it's not about aging gracefully, it's about growing and evolving and becoming the best version of who you are now. And that's why I don't understand these people are like, man, dude, I love being older, like everything is better except like physical stuff basically like I have more money. I have more wisdom. I have a better friends. I'm more emotionally together in every single Everything's better in my life except like You know, I can't deadlift as much anymore

matter in my life, except like, you know, I can't deadlift as much anymore. I am an easy to be more. I'm like a shitty athlete now. My knees hurt a little and like that kind of stuff, right? You know, like, I used to be able to have sex whatever, five nights or five times a night now, like man, three is like not easy for me, right? And like, so yeah, things should, but like, if you, and that's why especially men, that's what a mid-life price I think is for dudes is they realize that they've made a bunch of bad choices or choice they don't like and they're stuck and they don't know how

to get out, but they won't do what you talked about doing before. They won't look at, they won't ask themselves a hard question, they won't look at the things that they haven't done, the responsibility they haven't taken in their life. They won't make any hard decisions. And so they're stuck, right? And like, that's just, yeah dude, it sucks man, when you get there, but the only way to avoid that

is to constantly, not reinvent, you don't even have to reinvent man. You have to constantly look at yourself and and do your work and you're by work I mean emotional work am I being the best person I can am I being honest with myself? I'm gonna take you responsibility for myself am I doing these things and if you're constantly Honestly asking yourself these questions you can't help but grow You're gonna grow that's just how it works and then you change and then you become whatever. Hopefully a better and better version of yourself, not always the same

though. It's not like, there's thing I'm never going to be as cool as I was when I was 29, right? In certain ways, but like I'm way better in almost every other way. I think, you know, what's interesting about that is people will find both men and women, they will find some form of success in quotation marks, some form of effectiveness within one particular domain. And then they just continue to double down, double down, double down, double down. And I don't know who the quotes from, You might be able to tell me who this is, but the goal is not to win the game. The goal is to keep on playing.

Yeah, I think that's from a book called Finit and Infinite Games. I forget the author. Simon Sinek, do you have a game on that? Yes. No, no, no, Simon Sinek. Simon's a good friend of mine. Yeah.

Simon's book about infinite games. He got, there's a good friend of mine. Simon's book about infinite games. There's a book called Infinite Infinite Games, which is where he got that. A lot of that idea. But it's not scenic. You guys are kind of for too much other shit. Don't give him someone else. That's a problem, isn't it? It's like when people are clever like that, James Aldrich is the same. So, yeah, people have a little bit of success, continue to double down on that, I would stick to this particular thing, but it's not about that,

it's about moving on to what is next. And you're right as well, you've touched on the fact that your social circle reinforces that, right? Even your fan base, they're not your social circle, but they're like, you're the this guy, you're the party guy, you're the drunk guy, you're the girls sleeping with girls guy, you're the self-development guy, you're the this guy, you're the party guy, you're the drunk guy, you're the girls sleeping with girls guy, you're the self development guy, you're the righty guy.

And as you perhaps want to evolve, especially if you have a being they don't want you to know because their relationship with you is based on its objectification. You are something you nailed it. You are something to them. You are not a person to them at all. I'm not going to talk about this in fame forever. You are not a person to them at all. Like I'm not going to talk about this and fame forever. You are not a person to them at all. I mean, like, it's not that like it's big. It all boils down to me. Michael Jordan is not a person. He's an I idealized basketball god. He's not a human. He's not a man.

He's not a human, he's not a man, right? Because a man is flawed and complex and vulnerable and all these things, right? Michael Jordan's none of those things, I mean, he is a God. This is the purpose of myth in God's forgiveness. And because we don't believe in God anymore, that's just been replaced by celebrities, right? And so that's why they get these idealized,

should people who use to treat celebrities like this?, be treating them well and high status is a different thing than this idealized worship. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I tell you what, I know that you touch on CrossFit as well, right? You've done a little bit CrossFit anytime, so you'll understand this. Because CrossFit's such a fast-changing sport, you can tell who, how long someone's been doing CrossFit by who their favorite athlete is, that, oh, you're a rich, froning guy, oh, you're a Jason Caliper, oh, you're a Matt Fraser guy. Like, do you know what I mean?

And it's such a fast-moving sport, it's kind of the same. So, man, I've got a million doors, it's always open, but one of the things I really wanna get into is, you're quite a cerebral person from what I can tell. You like to be able to rationalize, you can rationalize, you're sufficiently clever to be able to do that. A lot of the time when we think that we're doing the work, you've spoken about this, right, do the work,

uncover your hidden biases, what are the motives that are guiding your life, what are the things that you need to work and what are the things that you need to do. But if you are sufficiently cerebral or you can tell yourself good enough stories. A lot of the time you can come up with something which is a proxy for the truth. This isn't actually doing the work, but it's close to enough for me to feel like I'm satisfied in doing the work. It's like McDonald's versus food, right? It fills you up, but it's kind of not nutritious. Yeah. Talk about that. Well, dude, I mean, that's the trap, right? I forget the quote. It was somebody like the Buddha,

or someone one of his many, many disciples who said that the cleverest trick of the ego is to defend spirituality to its wishes, right? And so like you see this in people who, I'll give you a really good example. So for years, there was a specific person I'm thinking about, but a couple people, but really one, who's famous.

I'm gonna say his name, because he's still a friend of mine. I've said this to his face, so, but I just don't wanna like, you know, put my private conversations within the public, but like he would not shut the fuck up about Iawaska like just every conversation I have with his dude, Iawaska this and Iawaska that and Iawaska you gotta do Iawaska yet and like I don't mind someone like oh yeah, you know like I don't think it's wise to talk about psychedelics that way

you shouldn't recommend them to people talk about your experience and let them come to it on their own. But like, we knew each other well enough where it's, it was fine. But like, his life was fucked up, man. I kept like telling them, dude, your life is a mess. And if you're telling me to do this, it makes me not want to do it. And so like, I didn't do it for a long time because like, like I associated it with him and his mess, right?

And so, like, to bring it back to your question, it's called in what I realized, like, once I got deeper into that realm and I got to the real practice, like he was new to it. I got to the real practitioner, so we've been doing it 10 or 20 years and who were serious. Plant medicine, and like, yeah, plant medicines. And like And like Ayahuasca shamans and other shamans, they have a name for what he, what he was doing. They call it spiritual bypass, right? And basically it's the people who use these medicines to get the experience, very speak, to feel spiritual

and to feel like they had something happen, but not do any of the actual underlying, what you were talking about before, the really hard emotional work facing your shadow, right? Realizing things you've done, taking accountability for your actions, all owning your shit, right? And so like, that's where I was like, oh, once that got explaining to me, I'm like, okay, my problem is not with him. It's with how he's acting. And I could actually do this right.

It's not, I get it. So, um, dude, that's one of the hardest things, man. I can't tell you how this and the worst part is the smarter you are, like your defenses are as smart as you, right? And so like, oh, dude, it's a never ending wall between you and your smarter brain. Yeah. Yeah. Well, your ego is designed to keep you alive, right? To keep you safe. And the main tool it has to keep you alive is stasis. It wants to keep you the same. Because if you're alive now, right, doing what you're doing, changing is a risk of death.

And so like it doesn't want you to change, not because it's against you. It's just like imagine like, you know, like the super conservative, hyper-risk-averse mom. That's your ego, right? And so like, what you have to do, what I've had to do do is learn to get in a diet. I have to see it first. Understand, oh, shit, my brain is tricking me, my ego, my part of, my ego part of my brain is tricking me to stop me from growing and changing, right? And then I get, get in a dialogue and it's like, okay, hold on, like, you have to realize there's different parts of your brain that have different agendas. And it's actually great.

Like they all work in balance. The movie Inside Out from Pixar is an amazing example of this. Like, have you seen that movie? No. It's like, you think Pixar is a kids movie. It's an amazing movie because it shows you how like, sadness, happy joy, anger, like these are all discussed.

Your core emotions all have very important purposes and work together, right? And then to get on a balance side, they get messed up. But like it's really, really, really, really hard to do that, man. To really understand there is a part of me trying to keep me the same and it's a good valuable part I just need to not listen to it all the time because if I want to grow I've got to change right and then I've got to take that risk Dude that took me Yeah, I don't know how long it took me I did a session that was with obviously a very experienced guy, with a specific type of medicine that kind of created an ego death,

like where your ego really does die, and you, and dude, it was crazy man, as I was going into this, this is like a serious, serious one, psychedelic. And I heard myself, I thought I was thinking, they tricked you, this is your new reality, you're gonna get stuck here, you're gonna die, right? I thought I was thinking that. Exactly what you want, just as you're entering a trip.

Right. And a big one too. And so like, of course, I'm like freaked out, whatever, but at that point, I'm pretty experienced. I was people I knew and trusted and they saved my mind So like I was able to kind of surrender and like go it wasn't until a few days later I was like hold on a minute. That was my fucking ego dying That was like oh my god, and that's when I realized like

The the trick the ego plays on you is it is that it convinces you that it is you. You and your ego are the same thing. And they are not. It's an important part of you. It can just be destructive. You listen too much. That's what the Buddhist meme when they say you are the observer, not the speaker, right? Is they're saying the real, the true self is the self that sees and observes and experiences and the ego and all these other parts of you

Are different parts of your brain that like our part of you, but not you Mm-hmm, and I do I'm still trying to figure this out now like it's like I'm not like some, you know Zen monk that's been doing this for 40 years, right? Like I'm 18 months in, but it all made sense. And as soon as I understood that, then I started like really kind of essentially talking to myself in a different, like a crazy person sort of, but in a different way and realizing, oh, okay, I'm afraid of that or I'm telling myself, I don't want to do that. It's like, hold on, why am I doing that?

Because, you know, like, what's a good example? My mom, right? I don't have a good relationship with my mom. I just kind of like, that all came to a head. Like, and so long, long story short, I had talked to her in 12 years. And so I realized I need to reach out to her. And I didn't want to. And so I had this whole sort of like battle with myself, right? And I realized the ego's like no, don't reach out to her now. She was wrong. All these things. These are good arguments But I was like, uh hold on. You're trying to keep me the same. I get it. Thank you for protecting me. I'm gonna reach out and Then like we didn't meet up, but because of the dynamics around it, I was able to just let that go I had all this shit resentment and anger and, I was able to just let that go. I had all this shit resentment, anger, and what if we,

I was able to let all that go because I didn't listen to my ego there. Does it make sense? I'm so serious. Absolutely, man. What it sounds like recently, you made a graph for the people that were listening, you talked about a graph you can imagine

one that's going up exponentially. It's getting more and more as time goes on, and the increases are getting greater as well. When you talked about your progress and you were highlighting the fact that the plant medicine's really kind of supercharged that over the last 18 months. One thing that I'm fascinated by is this period

we're talking about, for men, and I can't speak for women, but it might happen for girls as well. But for men, you know, maybe between mid to late 20s to hopefully mid 30s, where something happens, they'd start to realize, like, I need to kind of let go of that last, that past version of myself. Do you think that you can make, you can have these insights and you can have that conversation with the ego without doing some of the work first?

You know, for instance, can I just dive into plant medicine? Is it just gonna enlighten me? Or could you be where you are now without having done nine years of psychotherapy and meditation yoga blah blah? It's hard to say, man. It really is. It depends on the person, dude. So you're not certain.

You could have done that. All right, so I know a girl who is totally in touch with her emotions and like doesn't take any of this stuff and she's fine and people like Michael singer You know who wrote the untouched soul like you know huge book that dude just sat in a fucking swamp and meditated two hours a day right and got there and So no no you do not need plant medicines to get there. I do not think you do But are they really helpful for a lot of people? Yes you do, but are they really helpful for a lot of people? Yes. Were they at this point for me and all the trauma that I've been through? Were they basically an necessity for me? Yeah, I think. Maybe, assessing, maybe, I don't know, they worked. And they were amazing for me.

And again, we're talking about two different things. Using psychedelics and plant medicines to heal and using them to, let's call it, expand your mind and reach higher levels of consciousness. They're very related, but they're not the exact same thing. I have been mainly focused on using psychedelics and plant medicines to heal trauma and to connect with myself better. Now, by default, I've had some conscious disarraging and seen some crazy stuff and whatever,

but like, that's not been my focus. And a lot of people who start with psychedelics, I think start there, like let's do five in M-A-O-D-N-T and talk to him. See what happens. Yeah. Right, and it's like, look, you can start there, but that's like learning to swim in the middle

of the Pacific. Like, I guess you could do it, but that's like learning to swim in the middle of the Pacific. Like, I guess you could do it, but probably not, would you recommend, man? Yeah. Like, that's why I started with the MDMA, because it's so safe, it's so gentle, it's so effective on trauma. And like, and it's like, it's like learning to swim in the kitty pool, you know? So yeah, man, like, if you want it, if you don't want to be stuck, if you're afraid of being stuck, it's very, very simple.

It's very simple to understand. The reason you're stuck is because you're holding on trying to hold on to something that you can't hold on to. Right? So then this understand, gotta let go and the only thing you can do is ride the waves not hold on the thing that is Unholdable and that the surf is a great Metaphor like imagine trying to like say all right. This is awesome way that I'm on. I'm just gonna stay on this way And you look at them like, are you retarded? It's gonna hit the beach. It's not

pop. You can't ride a wave forever because waves aren't forever. But yet, life is the same one. It really is the exact same way. So whatever phase you're in, now I'm not saying don't bail on the wave until you have to. If you got a good wave and you're on it, ride it, ride it for as long as you can. But when it's over, let it go. Same thing with whatever phase of life you're in. I get it, man. I didn't tell you right.

I think what's interesting when we start to strip away persona, right, we're looking at who we are, hang on, I'm now attached to something that I was, but I no longer am. I need to update my software. I'm now about to something that I was, but I no longer am. I need to update my software. I'm now about to be a dad. I'm becoming a dad. I want to get a girlfriend who could become my wife.

All of these things. The frustrating thing that I found over the last four years is it's like a pasta parcel. Like you strip away some of the wrapping paper and then underneath the wrapping paper, there's some more wrapping paper. And you just keep on going and you're like, fuck, I thought, like, you just keep on tearing it off and you're like, no, this, this got to be the last one. This has to be the, like, below this, it's got to be the last one. And then you just keep on going, keep on going, keep on going. It's just all wrapping paper. I wonder if that's the game.

Yeah, realizing there's nothing there. Yeah, that's, I mean, that's what, not just the Buddhist, but almost any tradition will tell you, like at the end of the day, that, look, it's funny, the last 18 months, I've done so much reading into a lot of people I hadn't really paid up close attention to, before people like Rumi, Jesus, I knew a lot of Buddhism, but like, really kind of diving in to different different angles

And you know what's funny is they all say the same thing like they really say the exact same thing Buddha said everything you Everything you need everything you require you have in you Jesus said the kingdom of heaven is within Rumi said all the stars in the galaxy, all the stars in the sky are nothing compared to the journey in order, something like that. They also did the exact, all the great avatars said the exact same thing.

That everything you need to have inside, it's just a matter of going inward, doing that work. You know, that's it. That's all it is, man. Like it, it's, I feel like in, if anyone's listening to this, I think this dude's an idiot or a crazy person, I get it because two years ago, I would have said the same thing with the, but it's like, oh, once you get it, it makes total sense. And so now it's like, it's funny too, man, because we were pretty successful two years ago.

But the success and stuff I'm doing is just going up, up, up, up, and it's like, it's going up an almost direct proportion to how much I've let go of not working, right? Like I'm here doing a podcast. I do not working, but trying, holding on to, I've got to have this or I've got to have that or I'm trying to orchestrate that. And this is the thing I need to succeed. I'm understanding that I have it. You know, it's all right here.

And whether I succeed or fail is essentially a, both a story I tell myself in a feeling I have and that I actually get to control that and I get to decide that. It sounds so tight from the outside man, but once you get it, it just clicks. How do you marry that very holistic view with failures and success in life With the fact that you need to get up and do the grind Yeah, I don't think you have the grind if you're grinding you're doing it wrong also Because by definition a grind is awful. It okay No, seriously like you know what my days are man

I'll be up my Monday sometimes are a little bit of a grind because I got a lot of calls, a lot of things like this. And some of them I like, like this conversation is pretty cool, not all of them. So like, there's always, I have not fully here, but my life now is 80, 80% things that I love doing, things that energize me. Like if you want a rubric, 80% things that I love doing, things that energize me. Like if you want a rubric,

manage your energy, right? The things that energize you do those. The things that don't energize you either don't do or if you have to do them, pay someone to do them whose energized my them. Like the idea that I would have to like put numbers in a spreadsheet, I put a bullet in my brain, but the two accounts at my company love it.

They just lie, it's like their thing, right? So we hired people that, you know, that do that and like we trade and it's great, you know? They don't like talking to people, I'm real good at that. So, but we both spend our days doing things that energize us, right? And I think most people don't do that. They load their brain with sheds. I should do that.

Sheds and halves. Halfs do this. Should do that. It's a fucking story in your head, man. I've yet to meet a person who's like really, truly has a shudder half story that can't be broken down. And I know there's a million people find this all mine's different. Yeah, any fucking different man. I had all those things and I'm a better arguer than you. Yeah, we get back to the brain being able to convince us of pretty much anything, right? Um, I recently

had Kamala Rava can't on and he's got this level. He's good guy man. He's got the three steps of how he sees life. Life happens to me. Life happens for me. Life happens through me, right? And it ties into a victim mentality. It ties into leaning into discomfort, which is one of my favorite things.

It talks about leaning into discomfort as if you invited it through the door. This is something that's here. It's here for growth. It's all tied together. I don't know how. I don't know how it all fits together, but it is. Yeah. I mean, I feel like I'm on the cusp of really.

I feel like I've kind of got it, but not well enough to explain to anybody, right? But here's the thing with this, man, is that I'll tell you the things that I have, like I got it. You can't really truly explain. You can, you can use words, but the gap between understanding the words is big. And so like's sort of like, imagine, okay, so this is the one you can get. No one would think that watching, you can learn about sex from watching porn. You get some information from it, right?

But the gap between having sex and watching porn is huge. And you really don't even know how big the gap is to start having sex. You're like, oh wow. start having sex. Oh, wow. And I mean, everything, the experience about good it is, how different it is, everything, right? It's different. You can understand how they're related, but they're really totally different. Same thing is true about trying to talk about enlightenment, right? The words don't work,

you know? And like we use words because that's how we communicate, words and symbols and pictures. But what you and I are talking about right now is experiential. You must walk the path. This is the best Buddhist quote. It is not enough to read the words of Buddha. You must walk his path. You have got to do this work to understand it. And you can use other people's experiences and examples and words as guides. That's really helpful, but it is no substitute, which is this is the problem with Christianity, is that basically from the Catholic church onward, the church has tried to replace Jesus' experience, they try to take his experience and make people substitute an acted out version of his experience for their experience, right?

That's a problem with Christianity is that it's not, you don't experience the feeling you act out Jesus. You know, that's communion, right? All that sort of shit. Whereas the Buddhist will tell you, no, no, no, no, you've got to actually do the work. Same with Islam You don't actually experience it. It's Muhammad's words, right? I think that's bullshit I think that was the really the big thing that psychic Alex showed me and that the path is like oh

I have to experience this like that's the irony is I was totally atheist before and now I'm way more Not formal religious, but like way more like oh I totally get Jesus now 100% accepting its spirituality. No because like now I've felt it I've experienced it like I got none of that through through any sort of formal religion but now I understand what's called an ecstatic experience now I totally get it I know what he's I know what he meant when he said the kingdom of heaven is within there's no word you could have explained to me that I did, you know, like a massive dose of mushrooms and therapeutic setting and I'm like, oh, shit, this is what he means. Now it makes me.

I totally get what it means. The kingdom of heaven is with him. Yes, it is with him. He's right. Yeah. It's interesting that you say that your experiences with psychedelics have caused you to become slightly more spiritual and religiously minded or at least religiously accepting. One of the co-hosts of the show, Yusuf, was Muslim until around about 22, 23 and then a psychedelic

trip caused him to recant religion overnight. Which..., for more religion, of course, absolutely. I totally go down. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Because all it is, think of it. It's just someone standing between you and experience and telling you, you have to rely on me to tell you what the experience is.

Fuck you, I can go do it myself. The interpreter that's trying to make it, I really appreciate what you said as well about the, how words can't really describe the sensation, especially for me, someone who prides himself on being precise for this speech. I try and articulate, right? I try and be lucid. I try and do these things, but they're just proxies for the notion that we have. They're just a real, this thing that's for experiences.

Yeah. I'm trying to get it out. And the words, even words themselves, read 1984, right? Read 1984 and that tells you all that you need to know about how language is related to the thoughts that we have in our brains. If you don't have the words, the thoughts essentially don't, they never get communicated. They don't exist. They don't exist outside of ephemeral, nebulous, cloudy little notions in our heads. They're experiences is what they are.

Yeah. But they're only ever yours. That's can't communicate. No, I get it. You mentioned about the two paths to do with psychedelic therapy, one being consciousness raising, one being more therapeutic. What is it that is making that determination? Is it intention going in? Is it satin setting? Is it dosage? Is it a combination?

It's a lot of those things, man. It really is. But so when I say therapeutic, I mean like, yeah, like basically figuring out what your trauma is and then, or your stuck emotions call it, because really trauma is, is unfelphalemotion, unfelphalemoth. And so it's essentially making it easier for you to feel that so that you can then let it go, right? And psychedelics make that with the right guidance and the right intention, the right intention the right setting the right second offs

Is not all good at that but but the ones that are good at that are a fucking magical dude Game DMA is amazing at it lower dose mushrooms tend to be pretty good at it LSD can be in certain areas There's others like I mean, I'm not the expert on that side. I know it pretty well But I'm not the dude you would call the VV expert, but like I If you do the mind expansion and consciousness expansion stuff without the trauma work beforehand It's doable, but you're it's sort of like Getting a really nice car and taking it for a fast drive with the windshield, like dirty, you know?

Like it makes it a lot harder. It can be, it can be, first off, that's how you can get really dark stuff. Like that's what a cool bad trip is, is you take a bunch of LSD, and it's an LSD didn't do anything to you. It brought up a lot of stuff you have in you, and you aren't ready or willing to deal with it.

That's what a bad trip is. There's a few exceptions that are very rare or whatever with the most people that's what a bad trip is and so like. That's why for most people it's you want to do your work first it's like it's sort of like you know. The way I think about it just for shorthand is like, I gotta clean my house before I try and go talk to God, right? And so it's like, I'm not gonna go talk to God with a dirty house. And so I gotta get my house at least in order. It doesn't have to be perfect,

but I gotta get everything put away. I gotta get all cleaned. Once my house is in order, then I can go take my meeting. You know? It seems like to me, MDMA is, it's been a number of clinical trials now for it being used for PTSD therapy, being used for a lot of different things. For me, my experience, I've never taken MDMA in my life without being drunk in a club. That's it.

Like, you know, I mean, it's not therapeutic drug to me. It doesn't even speak of psychedelic in nature. It's not a psychedelic. It's not a psychedelic. It's not even in that class. It's a totally different molecular compound. Yep. It's not at all. But dude, when you take it and say, I know a lot of people who used to do like a cram of india mail weekend or crazy stuff like that, right? Like a lot. And then they, they, you know, they, they went to that phase and now they're out and they do it therapeutically. And it's like, they're like, oh my god, I had no idea. Like, if it drove totally, totally different experience. That's fascinating. That is really, really fascinating. I really hope that it gets rolled out more. I think it's got a lot of.

It'll be legal and in, in probably, in America, it's actually, there's a few places where you can do it, compassionate care licenses, those clinics are being opened this year. It'll be widely legal in 2021 or 2022, probably. It's already in state-tree clinical trials. It's a therapeutic use. Guided. With prescription and all that sort of stuff, yeah. Got you. Okay. You mentioned so one of the flags in the ground of your life of the transition from old

to new tooker was when you said that you were giving up fratire, which was this particular type of writing that you've done. And since then, am I right in thinking the only thing you've brought out is this scribe method? Is that right? No, I wrote a book with Jeff Miller called What Women Want, which is like the instructional guide for guys about how to deal with women, how to understand women, how to deal with women.

I talked to him, I'm going to track through two and all that sort of stuff. It's the best book on that subject by far in the marketplace. We did a pretty poor job positioning it and marketing it. That book is like the best example ever that product doesn't beat marketing all the time. Right? Like there's all these idiots that have all this dumb shit stuff out there that they market the hell out of.

And like we didn't want to approach it that way. And like so we ended up like we wrote the that way. And like, so we ended up like, we wrote the best book. It's by far the best info. Like, the dudes who read it, and a lot do, that we, I can email every week from a guy, I was like, oh my god, I snore all the money on these big changes. Game changes.

And it was all, it has changed my life or whatever. The problem with the book, man, is that we don't play the, it's not your fault game. We don't blame women for problem. We don't play the, it's not your fault game, we don't blame women for problem, we don't play up to the most toxic emotions and dudes. And so it's a lot harder to sell personal responsibility and accountability, and it's a lot harder to sell hard, like real hard work, and it's hard to self-facing

your problems and things like that, which is what we do in there. But what's funny is, like, I told you, I'm like, listen, you want to have the life I have? Go do this book. That's it, man. You want to be married to an incredible, amazing woman who's hot, have a bunch of kids with her, have a bunch of money, whatever. Whatever, however,

the details of my life don't matter, right? Cause like some people don't give a shit about mine. Whatever success looks like by the metrics you've made. You have a success looks like to you. Yep, it's here. You just have to do the work. It's not complicated. It's just difficult.

Isn't it fascinating that you wrote a book that was positioned to virtuously for it to capitalize on its own, on its own success. Yeah, that's really interesting. So the guys, there's a video going around Twitter today from, you know, the guys from 21 convention, you know, that is. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So the dude behind that, forget his name, which kind of says it all, dude behind the 21 convention thing was on a British talk show this morning with

Piers Morgan. You'll know who Piers Morgan is. Piers kind of doesn't really pull his punches and him and him and this female co-host just tear this guy's ass all out. That absolutely annihilates him about all of the things. He's wearing a make-women great again hat and he's just everything that's wrong with like the whole sort of manosphere. It's almost too easy of a target, man.

Of course you can make fun of this idiot. Yeah, he's like the Colby Covington UFC fighter of... And I'm like, fuck, man. This isn't WWE. You're supposed to be putting yourself across as a legitimate man development, male development place. If you're going to play the heel, the bad guy, at least do a good job. that man development, male development place. I mean, if you're gonna play the heel, the bad guy, at least do a good job.

Like Conor McGregor does a good job of that, right? Like there's a way to do that when you can do a good job. They're just, they're too dumb or too emotionally undeveloped to actually do it well. You know? And I'm like, I'm gonna get, I'm gonna get Rollo Tomassion. I really, really want to have a discussion with Rollo. I want to find out.

I don't know who that is. Guy that wrote The Rational Mail. So he's widely sort of earmarked as the person who began the Red Pill Movement for men. It seems like he's Genesis for that. Or at least that's what it's called online. And I got a few questions for men, it seems like he's Genesis for that or at least that's what it's called online. And I got a few questions for that which today's helped to inform me about. My experience, man, in my experience, those dudes are extraordinarily broken and they

just blame their shit on everyone else. That's not what... Even the ones... No, there's ones that make really good arguments about a lot of things, right? And so it's not like because they're broken, all their arguments are wrong, that's bullshit. Like you can, like you can all so many good points about a lot of stuff. And it's not like the other side, it's not like the fucking social justice warriors are any better, they're just as awful, they're just as broken. They're just as a victim mindset or worse.

But like those dudes, it's like they get that little, like any of them, they get that little echo chamber. And it's like, it's not your fault. It's not your fault either. Okay, we'll be broken and lonely together. And it's like, all right, dude, then go have your shitty life. It's fine with me. Look at the way that what we spoke about twice, two different situations that have come up in this conversation. The first one is how you find that nuance and that understanding in yourself, right? Doing the work on yourself, your truthfulness and stuff like that. And that not actually being quite as polarizing and some people not really even responding to that as much, you know, you were the party guy, you were the this guy, you were the

that guy. And then the second thing, being the book, the book, which delivered a more nuanced, more, a deeper, more truthful, more transparent, more difficult to swallow pill. But both of those things kind of jar, jar with people sometimes, but the easy to, easy to sort of swallow, single line, single tweet length synopsis is more effective. Man, I wish it wasn't the case. Look, we're going to talk about the Skied Method and everything else. But you guys launched David Goggins book if there's people that are listening who want to learn how to write a book. 500 pages? Is that the Skied Methods PDF? Yeah, just honestly. So we have, like, look, if you want to pay someone to do it all for you,

we're the company, but most people I'm sure can't, just go to scribebookschool.com, everything that we do with our clients, who pay us five and six figures to work with them, we explain all of it and lay it all out in detail. So if you don't have money but you have time, it's all there for free. Go do it all out in detail. So if you don't have money but you have time, it's all there for free. Go do it yourself. No problem. And you said this beautiful quote, which I've heard from you which says, everybody has wisdom

inside of them. They just need to get it down onto a page, something along those lines. They have to get it out. You can use video too. There's not a wrong video. It's great, man. We're about to launch a big YouTube channel, but we just do books. Books are a big way, a really specific way. they're not the only way and you got a specialist you're a specialist in that right that's your your background yeah awesome man took a if people want to hassle you online where should they go Twitter LinkedIn Facebook I'm like I'm now hard to find glorious thanks man