Modern Wisdom - #190 - Christopher Berry-Dee - Death Row's Worst Killers In Their Own Words

Episode Date: June 29, 2020

Christopher Berry-Dee is a criminologist and a writer. Christopher has spent a career interviewing some of history’s most notorious killers including Peter Sutcliffe, Ted Bundy, Aileen Wuornos, Dennis Nilsen and more. This is his first ever podcast. Expect to learn what it feels like to look pure evil in the eye, what makes psychopaths tick, why victims fall for these killers' deadly tricks and much more.  Sponsor: Check out everything I use from The Protein Works at https://www.theproteinworks.com/modernwisdom/ (35% off everything with the code MODERN35) Extra Stuff: Buy Dead Men Talking - https://amzn.to/3ex6l0R  Get my free Ultimate Life Hacks List to 10x your daily productivity → https://chriswillx.com/lifehacks/ - Get in touch. Join the discussion with me and other like minded listeners in the episode comments on the MW YouTube Channel or message me... Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/ModernWisdomPodcast Email: https://www.chriswillx.com/contact Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hi friends, welcome back. My guest today is Christopher Berry D best selling author of the Talking with serial killers series and today we are discussing his new book Dead Men Talking, Death Rose Worst Killers in their own words. Christopher has spoken to some of history's most notorious killers, including Peter Sookliffe, Ted Bundy, Eileen Wernos and many more. He's literally sat face to face with some of the most heinous, terrible human beings that have ever lived. He's one of the world's most sought after and respected criminologists, and his book is required reading by the FBI's Behavioral Science Unit.

On top of that, he had to download Skype to be able to do this episode, so I think this is his first ever podcast, which means we're incredibly fortunate to get to speak to one of the leading insights into the mind of serial killers that's alive today. I feel like this is fairly obvious, but this episode does contain some scenes which you might find distressing from pedophilia to murder, cannibalism, children being burned alive, and quite a bit of other stuff. If you are feeling sensitive today, it might be an idea to go back and check out one of the other 189 beautiful episodes available on the Modern Wisdom Library.

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on how you can join will be on the pre-roll before next Monday's podcast and on my Instagram at ChrisWillX. So make sure that you are ready for next Monday so that you can join Patreon. There's also a bonus if you join within the first two weeks and I'll be telling you more about that later this week. But for now, it's time to talk about serial killers with Christopher Berry D. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back. Chris, we have wrangled technology and we've managed to make it work. We finally got ourselves down south as each other. Correct, yeah, as I said earlier, I'm a, I'm a Skype virgin. There's a first time for everything. So this is going to be this evening. So my, my first question for you, you've interviewed some of history's most notorious killers,

people like Peter Sutcliffe and Ted Bundy and Aline Wernos and Dennis Nelson and Joanne Denny and stuff like that. If you're out for dinner with someone new and they say, so Chris, what do you do for work? How do you describe your job? Well, it's actually a bit of a, it's great at parties or barbecues because most barbecues that I've attended in the past are sort of state agents and lawyers, golf club types. And then when they ask you whether there is a nose up in there, what do you do for a job? So I interview serial killers. And that instantly attracts a massive crowd. And I got a lot of fun of looking at these accounts

and seeing no jaws drop on the floor. It's different, isn't it? It's definitely different. Yeah, I mean, it must be, you write at a barbecue, it must be a very shocking thing to hear, especially just from, you know, I was prepared. I'm thing to hear, especially just from, you know, I was prepared and prepared to speak to you having done some research on your background. When you were just expecting you to say, oh, well, actually, I'm the area manager for this

accounting firm or I do, yeah, I mean, I'm in law or whatever it might be, oh, no, just speak to serial killers. So, just to clear one thing, I don't normally go to do is where people don't know me. Most of the people I die with when I get a chance and I can afford it is people that do know me. I mean in the Philippines where I live most of the year, I mean I die with police officers and people like that and they'll homicide cops. So, Mary, I'm going to go the same. I do. But occasionally somebody says, I think I saw you on the TV, you know, you the criminologist

or something. But to me, it's just another job for us. I mean, it's just another job. I suppose it is. It's the same for everyone, right? It's just par for the course. And so, the first question, the burning question I've got for you is what is it like to sit down and interview these people,

even having had this huge long illustrious career that you have with a lot of experience, is there still, is it still quite an odd experience to go in and also do you get scared? To answer the last question first, I never get scared. If I got scared, they'd smell it. They can sense it. They're like a beast in a cage. And if you get scared, you lose the battle with them instantly, because they're control freak, suicide, your paths.

And the minute you do that, you've got to come down to their level straight away. It can be fascinating. It really is fascinating. They're all different. Being up very close to personal, touching, some have chained up, some are. Death can be a heartbeat away for you. They can lose the plot.

But it's knowing their back history before you go there, normally having corresponded with them sometimes for years. So there is this interpersonal relationship. You know how far you can push them. You know what pushes their buttons. You know what annoys them. And it's about manipulation and mind control. So I never get scared. I'm in control. They think they're in control, but I'm in control. You had a good example of that.

The first character in your new talking with serial killer's book, Dead Men Talking, John Robinson, I think that was probably a pretty good example of someone who thought he was in control and they've turned the tables on him, right? Yeah, yeah, I'm a side of Delboy. Yeah. Yeah, that's how you described him. I said that actually on a TV series, I think it was called Born to Kill or something, and it had the crew on the floor at stitches. And I said, you're going to leave it in. And they said, yeah, we'll leave it in. It's great. But that's what he was. I mean, you did look at him. He was, he

was just full of bullshit. I mean, you know, he's a cartoon character, really. If you take away all the horror of his crimes and his manipulations. There is black humor there. So why do these serial killers open up to you at all? Why why you? Well interesting question. I think if we come away from serial killers we go to John Kanan who murdered Shirley Banks and Bristol, definitely to Fusiland Plough, and certainly Sandra Cawton Bournemouth, to give you an idea. When his case, when he was finally locked up for life, I wrote to him to say that I wanted to write a book about him. And he came back very cocky and said, oh, well, now I've got dozens of authors and publishers want my exclusive story. So then I got John Blate, my publisher, to sort of send me

some pictures of my book covers. And I sent him those with a letter saying, well, thanks very much. I really wanted your assistance. I think you've been stitched up by the police, John. I'll write the story without your cooperation, thanks a lot. So I put it between a rock and a hard place. And I try to use the same fishing techniques with women and male serial killers. If finding out what their wants and their needs are, it's like beach fishing.

You know where the fish swim like Robinson, you know what he wants, but it's a case of casting the right bait to catch him. With Melanie McGuire is in that book, the ice queen, she was in New Jersey, upscale woman, good lifestyle, dropped up a husband through them in bits and pieces in the Chesapeake Bay, but she had hundreds of letters and publishers wanting her. So I wrote on Conqueror, cream Conqueror paper like this, this laid, laid stuff, this cream stuff with an envelope and then I put my family crests at Waxeelon it and I sprayed it with them Chanel Ego East. So when she opened the letter she's got an airmail stamp from England which makes it different. It's classy stationary. from England which makes it different. It's classy stationary. She opens it and there's this sense, this smell that she remembers. Ego is still here. And it's something she'll come back to

because this, it's a sensory thing. So I use that bait with her. It's interesting that you manage to get yourself through the door using by finding out what these people want, what it is that they want and then dangling that. But how about when you actually sit down with them, have you got a process? Obviously you tend to spend a lot of time corresponding back and forth,

but when you eventually do get face to face with them, what is it that you're doing? What is it that you're saying or the way that you're acting, which is encouraging them to give away more than they usually should? Well, what are the tricks of the trade, if you like, is one thing that law enforcement, I friends in the FBI, or tell you, and the British police, you can't use entrapment. They can't use, they can't entrap a person. So, but I can. And it's really about making them feel comfortable with you. And you let them know that although that you're on their side but you know you're not on their side and you are you're chatting really and now

they could be an endgame to it for me like without a short cross I wanted him to confess to a murder of a little schoolboy called Jack Blake and he he told me, I think he used to use the language now, but he was inches away from me. And the guard said, if he loses the plot, he could tell you head off Christopher and we won't be in the room. Now, we're sure, Crossy, he literally bored over. He went white, he's face wet white, sweat pouring down

his face when I mentioned Jack Blake. He told me not to ever mention it, otherwise he'd kill me. And he was, well, I then poured and touched his knee and I said, can we go for and Clara's waiting outside and she's asked me to be the best man at your wedding after and she's going to go wait if you don't tell me the whole truth and then his face is designated, there's a TV interview or you can see it online on the program. And he cracked and the fury went and he confessed and it's a case of sometimes they'll eyeball you and they will say something

bragging about Michael Wostid, the strangulation marks, multiple marks around Victor's neck, he got a kick out of that, he giggled. And then I looked at him straight in the face and said to him, you know, you're not a big serial killer, are you? I mean, seven or eight, you're not Ted Bunney. Give me a break. Come on, boy. And he just looked stunned. And then he went on to try to describe more about what he'd done. You know, and I got got two cold cases I cleared up with him, which was all not to with corner university and a little girl called Kimberly, Kimberly Logan in Crystal Run. So it depends how you play it. I mean, sometimes it's a serious matter because you're there to try to bring closer to the next of kin and you're the only one who didn't talk to it.

So, there is a heavy side of it. It's seem, I mean, the fact that you said that you don't get scared and yet there is a guy that says, I'll fucking kill you. You know that the police or the guards are far enough away for him to be able to do some serious damage before they could get in. Like, that takes some balls. Well, with Kenneth Bianchi, the notorious Hellside Stranger, I interviewed him at the Washington State Penitentiary in a small room.

And there was only a wooden table between us, a small table. And he's got the eyes of a great white shower, the black, and they don't blink. And if you're looking into the face of evil, you can smell it and he's a big guy, he's strongly, he waits every day at yard time, you know, there are no other Canadians. So anyway, he's sitting across this table and he's eyeballing me and I just kept looking at him and I got up and I walked around to his side of the table and I put my arm around him and I whispered in his ear and I said listen you find a miserable motherfucker, I said give me a smile, come on and he cracked and that was all right.

Well, as he left the room after the hour, he turned around as the guards let him out because I was the only one in the room with him. He turned around and said if you ever near me again, I'll kill you. Do you think he meant to? Yeah, but I saw him twice after that. I saw him one on exercise, I would have snowing and he walked past in a sort of blue jacket with a Facebook, with a wooly hat on, a long long row of cons and I literally was within feet of him and he just looked down he wouldn't do it wouldn't look at me. Then I saw him again up on the special house in you there and he told me that he had a special house which he calls his cell was the best cell in the whole prison in the penitentiary because he was a top man. But really, and I wanted to see his house. So I had the gun of the prison even death row. I mean, I've

been going to where I wanted to. And I walked up in the garden, said, Christopher, do not step over that yellow line because they throw feces in peer at you. And I walked down the tier and I walked back and then across the line I walked up to Bianca's tiny for sale and he was asleep on his bunk with headphones on and I said, Dump Kenny, Kenny, it's your friend Chris, I've come to see you in your house. He went ape. You are a very bozzy man, an incredibly Bozzie man. I've unlocked, I've unlocked because I had the run of the place. About seven inmate, six inmates on death row in the Washington State Penitentiary.

And I sat round with him in the semi circle on the floor, got some guard, I got some Coca-Cola, I got some candy in, I sat down, I spoke to the shop caller who, the number one con on the floor, got some guard, got some Coca-Cola, got some candy here, and I'll sat down. I've spoke to the shop caller, who, who, the number one con on that wing, and I said to him, is it okay if I unlock and we can chat. And we sat down for nearly what we thought of them now, maybe. Didn't discuss their crimes, just discuss life and everything. No threat at all, no threat at all. Because you've got to remember, and you'll listen as your viewers, you've got to remember, these people, most of these men will kill innocent women and children. They will not front up to a man. They're all mouth and trousers, they're

cowards. Any man that kills young children, elderly people or vulnerable guys is nothing more than a coward. I've got this coward. So it acts the way it works. And that's why... That's why it's important for what you said at the beginning, for you to go in to not show fear to have this image because that weakness is what they're looking for. Exactly. That's how they screw up the psychiatrist, brains and minds because they know they can run rings around a psychiatrist, they know a lot of

the time they can run rings around the cops. But what they can't do is they get stuck in a corner with me when they say, oh, Christopher's going to write a book all about me, he's going to make a TV program, I'm going to be famous. The stuff before they start, that's the point. Tell the next one, I'll be on a podcast with you and we're famous. They're loving it. That's it, man. I mean, probably, probably keep me anonymous. If it's okay, keep my name anonymous, but I guess the behind bars, what they're going to do. So your new book, Dead Men Talking, looks at killers that are on death row. Is there anything different about the dynamic with these people in that they're on death row, rather than just potentially serving life in prison.

I've what I call many a green mile. You remember the film The Stephen King, The Green Mile? Of course they're not green at all, they're pastel shade sometimes. They are no longer like we see in the Green Marl and not so antiquated. San Quentin, the condemned route at San Quentin State Prison is pretty grim. But there is a certain amount of, they are dead men walking and they are, they come to the end of the line. Their only hope is that the Lord will save them and get them a reduced sentence or after hook before they're given the goodnight juice. So there is that certain quietness. Now if you come down level, or up a level from death row, you get the special housing

units where they're completely bonkers. And it's like being at London Zoo on a crazy day, they're screeching and throwing shit to each other and howling and spitting, it's like a madhouse. Is that with the ones with psychiatric problems? No, not all of them. They're just like, but the death rowing mates are like, let's just say say they've got more respect. They've done the ultimate crime. Now they may be a charciller, then they're

going to be sort of put to one side. But the point is there is that sort of a hierarchy in the prison system where death row inmate is, when I go to interview a death row inmate, they look down the prison if If I want him out of his cell, there's a complete look down of the whole facility. That nothing moves. And then they bring the inmate shackled with guards, Maccalaidress guards either side of them and he shackled up and they're bringing it to you and it will be up to me whether I

decide whether I want them comfortable or unshackled or I want to get them a Barra County or Coca-Cola and quite often I'll tell the guards get him this or get him that and the inmate likes that because the guards are telling the inmate what to do every day and here am I telling them what to do but it's all prearranged, it's all like a soap opera. So it gives that impression that you're on their side, look this is us working together, I'm one of you, etc, etc. So do you tend to prefer to have the inmates without restraints to make them feel more comfortable when you can? Yeah, I take one of the only, I mean, sometimes they're behind a screen like Tennis MacDuff,

death row Ellis unit before he was executed in Texas. He was behind some of behind screens, which is great. Doug discoloured the sunset slayer in San Quentin prison. He was heavily shackled, but he was going ape. I mean, he was really in a foul mood. It took me ages to calm him down before we got the cameras rolling. But with Dougie, it was a matter of him attacking the guards, not attacking me. So that's a difference. With Michael Ross and some of the other killers like Shore Cross and some of the others, I will say, look, if you're going to behave yourself or get the shackles taken off and we'll get some coke and we'll get some candy down here and we're going to have a nice comfortable chat. But don't mess me about because you'll go back down the hole.

And then that's it. I get it. Okay, so we've got a good understanding there of the process of how you're speaking to them, how you build rapport stuff like that. I want to get into the actual pathology, the way that these guys and these women think. First question is, is there a common theme among serial killers? Upon reading this most recent book of yours, they come from all IQ points, there's different backgrounds, there's different approaches you got. One person, one killer who's putting people into barrels to leave them to liquidate

and they're on fluids, you've got another that's eating the ears of the victims that he kills. You know, it seems to be all over the place. So what are the commonalities or are there any? Can I ask you a question? We're social distancing at the moment, aren't we? Present email. Can I smoke? Because I like to figure it out. Absolutely. That's absolutely fine by me.

I don't want the smoke to upset you. No, not at all. I can't smell it smoke to upset you. No, not at all. I can't smell it through the microphone anyway. All right, okay. They're different psychopodalities. Okay. None of them are the same. They're all totally different.

They are every single one of them. You try to look for something common amongst them and you can't find it. What they will tell you is that they were abused as a child or had a bad upbringing or they were badly potty trained or they were only allowed to drink green top milk but they wanted blue top milk.

There's all sorts of bullshit excuses for why they do what they do. You've got Peter Sackliff saying it was the word of God when he was digging a grave, the kill prostitutes, but then he didn't just go working girls, did he kill innocent, ordinary girls, classy girls, like the same with Harvey, the hammer, the hammer, hammer, hammer, carignant in the Minnesota correctional facility, 50 victims. When he went to trial, he said that God told him to kill these women. And he wore a white robe and some leather

throng sandals. And when he got sent into life in prison, he's always had to go for another trial and his lawyer turned around to him and said, look, Harvey, God didn't know at the last time, I don't know, he's going to help you next time. I mean, I am. I mean, I know it's black humour, but I mean, you'll see, it's serious subject, but you know, when you're there, when they're exhuming a body that you've helped get out of the ground, like in Waco, the cops are actually very, very loving and careful

with the corpse and everything else, but there is a little bit of black humor going around that has to, because it releases the pressure, because they all want it as well. So they're all, they answer the question, they're all different. That's an interesting one. What I found to be interesting was that

some of the murderers are so brutal toward their victims and yet they have families and they have children that they care about or that at least they don't mistreat. For instance, John Robinson who is this full 80 pages dedicated to him and he's got a wife of like 20 years five children and yet alongside that was committing all of these atrocious crimes. Yeah but no I think that's an easy one to answer and I think your viewers were going to love this bit. They don't love them. How can you love a woman and commit adultery for some 10 years and go around raping and killing women that he's learned into his web of deceit? How can any man love a woman or love their children if they do that? BTK, another one, the Green River

Killer. Now we've got families. I've just written a book coming out soon called Sleeping with Serial Collies about women who live with these men. Look, think about Sonya Sutcliffe God blesser. I mean, I know she's caused a lot of problems, but she never knew that Peter was a serial killer until the priest knocked on them and I rested him. How can you love a woman or a woman love a man and then commit those terrible crimes? I tell you what it is Chris, it's a matter of wearing a mask of normality. It's presenting yourself to your neighbours and your business colleagues, I'm married and I've got kids. Look, we've got a nice house, we can move the yard every Sunday, we go barbecue, we go church,

but it's all bullshit because it's hiding the monster living within. It's the mask of evil. It's like they're camouflage. It's their social camouflage. It's like their corner of large, it's their social camouflage, it's like the gillingsuits that a gangkeeper will use when you're shooting to hide himself. I was in them, I've got really, this is really quite a lovely little thing. I was in Manila and I went to this big massive aquarium. It's one of the best in the world. I was looking at all these little glass cases in the Quigley Crawley section. As you know, this old glass is on my side, it's not the best. I was peering through this glass trying to see something in it. It was like sand and there was like twigs.

I couldn't see anything.'ll keep looking to see if it exhibit clothes or something. But they're tucked away little two black eyes peering out of the sand waiting for another creepy crawly to come along and kill it. Or a little twig thing that moved. And that's what serial killers are like. They're camouflaged. Nobody sees them, nobody knows they're there, nobody knows they're coming, and then they strike. It seems unbelievable that you could be the partner of a murderer, an abuser, someone who has this crazy other side to their world and not know. But as you've identified, there are examples where the dogs don't know how to do that. How can you not, you know, to me, I just think why didn't, why wouldn't someone have thought?

Well, the thing is, in a lot of cases, the red flag pop up. A lot of cases, the woman will know, how many, he's doing something strange today, or he's not acting like all this money missing at the bank, I wonder what he's doing. There are red flags, a fortune-louder women don't spot those red flags. That's what this book about,

the secret with killers is about. It's looking at the red flags. Michael Sam's who killed the unprostitute in the middle of Yorkshire way. There were so many red flags that team Sam, so I interviewed Michael Sam's in full sentence prison. There were so many red flags there, she just ignored them, he truddled all over it, he conned and lied and everything else, he didn't love her. But the minute he got locked up in prison, out come all the love letters, I miss you, blah, blah. But can you send me some money, Tim?

I want these railway magazines. At the same time, on the Sunday newspaper, there's a picture of a woman called Vicki Vincieli who had bust about a 44, parading herself outside the prison gates of visits, and it's Michael Sam's piece of stuff. I'm blown away by this. Since reading the book, I've been thinking a lot about our modern day obsession with serial killers, with true crime, the popularity of series on podcasts like serial and up and vanished. It's huge. There is this resurgence or resurgence in popularity in this. And I put a tweet out about it and got sent literally just before we came live. I got sent a photo of a t-shirt that a girl said to me,

this is exactly what you were talking about. And it's a girl's t-shirt that says, probably eating or thinking about serial killers. I was like, that's it, right there. I know so many girls that love true crime that adore it. What do you think it is? It's the extreme, the extreme of that. I mean, everybody's entitled to that, but what a called murder groupies. So you've got hundreds of women, a writing and men are writing to women killers

as well, like the retired major from Babley, Sultzen, he's writing to some hooker in prison serving life. You've seen a beautiful, she sent in little pictures which are really fake or ones of a girl in a Russian model. He thinks he's fallen in love, he's sending her money. You got the murder groupies, you've got the murder groupies that marry these people in prison, they want the killer's babies. Oh, God, sake.

Why? But they don't see, well, because they're just possessed, I mean, Keith Hunter, Jesperson, the happy face killer, another one of my guys. He has hundreds of girls, he's six foot seven, I think, the truck, interstate trucker. He sent me files of love letters and photographs of the girls boasting about, oh look another one wants me and other ones coming to visit next week. And one of them, and this is quite disgusting, was what I thought was a lipstick imprint on the note paper, or fact I'm written about this in a book. And I thought, oh somebody's given a kiss with lipstick on. And he wrote underneath when I first saw it, he said, oh, that's not lipstick, that's

menstrual blood. Well, that's two firsts that we can chalk up this evening, Christopher. Your first podcast and the first time in about 200 episodes that the term menstrual blood has ever been used. So I mean, what is going on? What is the obsession here? Is it that the women find this level of dominance and aggression and undiluted masculinity attractive. Is that what it is? Jim, you asked me a question I haven't got the answer because I can't get inside. I don't understand women at the best of times. Well, I'm talking with the rights to some cannibal who will die in a row, some woman. I mean, that was Arthur Schulkross. I mean, the girl wanted to marry him. But the thing is, they don't seem to get it. They don't think,

oh, I better go and look at the scenes of crying photographs and see if I can get those through the freedom of a machinate in America or I'll go online and see what online and see what he did to these people. That's stupid. That's it. That's it. That's stupid. It's dangerous, man. It really is, I suppose. I've got 18-year-old women writing to some what the Big Black hunk in love with him and he's he's sending him money every week but he's got a dust in her soul women like sending him money. And as a lunacy here they ought to be locked up. They ought to sit in an electric chair for 10 minutes and see what it feels like. I'm doing something wrong here because I'm 32 and single and these guys have just got harryms of women chasing after them, giving them money, real chocolate or whatever he's

called over in Florida, having a way of it. No, but the big difference, you're in prison in your own home, like I am right now, they're going to sit in an electric chair. That is true. So we understand that there aren't necessarily any commonalities between the killers, the way that the reasons that they kill, their justification for it, both publicly and privately are all different. What about commonalities between the victims that they go for? You mentioned that they tend to be weaker people like women children. Yeah, women children are the elderly, the

vulnerable in society. Most serial killers have what they call their own victimology, their own preferred victim type. And now your viewers can go online and they can look up Ted Bundy's victims and you'll see they almost look all of them like sister's, sorority sisters. In fact, they were most of them were sorority sisters. You couldn't, you blind them up, they all look the same long hair, same looks, same ages, that sort of thing. That's what turned Bundy on, that sort. You've got Henry Lucas and Otis Till. Now I interviewed Henry, one old dear old Henry down in in Texas while he was on the road, he was subsequently given

a life sentence, then he died in natural causes, rather than the governor of Bush, I think it was. But they went for everything. They read to murdered chickens, dogs and cats, and young girls and children, and old men and old ladies. I mean, they went through the home, shebang. They did everything. I mean, there's a lot of frightened chickens in Texas that can tell you. That is that dark humor that we were talking about again, isn't it? Why is there often an element of sex involved in the crimes? And is it almost always that there's some sort of sexual gratification going on? It was serial killers, certainly.

I think the only serial killer I've ever interviewed that wasn't sexually motivated was John Scripps from the Art of white. He was 34 years old. I watched him being hanged in Changi Prison years ago. It was on my birthday, 18th of April funny enough. Happy birthday. The piece gave me a presentation mug when I left the country with a picture of a man hanging from a tree. But John, he co-for money. He gone to Cancun and he murdered a young uni guy called Timothy McDowell, got into him in his pen numbers

and then he dropped him, fell into the alligators. Then later on, he went to prison then years later for drug smuggling. He got 15 years, but he walked out of a prison, an open prison about two years later. After telling everybody he was going to escape, he just walked out of the gate, no one's looking, he knows. And he was taught buttery skills on the island white by a prison officer called Quigley. And he learned how to dismember carcasses wine prison, so the prison taught him how to dismember victims. He then went to Singapore

where he met a South African businessman called Gerard George Lowe, who was in Singapore by an electrical stuff because it was cheaper back in those days. It's not anymore, it's more expensive, but then it was. And they shared the same hotel room and then John hit him with a camp in hammer and then got this pin number, extracted his pin number out of him and then he took, dragged him into the bathroom and then he stuck a knife in his neck and blood into death, chopped him up, put him in suitcases and dumped him into the into the Singapore bay. Then he went straight to, did a bit of wash-up being, went to the opera on this business card. He went to Thailand, he went to Puket, he met Schiller and her son Daren Demood who was on a gaffly because he broke his leg. I stayed at Nillies Marina in P Cookec on the beach there.

He killed them both, he stunned them with the stun gun, just members them, put their bodies down a mineshaft. But like Nillie, he went back to Singapore and by then the body parts of Gerard Lowe popped up in the Singapore harbor. Gerard Lim, detector superintendent, Gerard Lim, who went over very well. He put out a hotel call for anybody not paying their bills, the name of Lowe, and he trapped the court John, and then they

hanged him. And I, my interview John, on the Monday before his execution, and I said to him, John, why didn't you appeal? He said, they won't hang me, Chris, I'm British. I thought, if I had Friday, they could pull his head off. Well, they're hung in between two tied bandits. He refused to be weighed for the drop. He did put up a spirited fire. They broke his nose in his jaw. They put a strip to naked and then he put them on the drop between two tied bandids.

What's a tied bandit, sorry? Tie, they were ties. Oh, a tie bandit, sorry. Yeah, not the ones you get from a shop like two kinds of tie shop. And then what happened was I was doing some stuff with AP TV at the time, and I covered the execution. I went to the cremation and interviewed the Thai ambassador. They had to bring his ashes back to England.

So we had a little drawer who was going to keep the ashes in their bedroom, but I rigged it. I didn't want them. But they hanged on. because he refused to be wise, head was nearly what's wrong. Broken nose, broken jaw, naked, hung. Crapin himself. The other two guys were standing there as good as gold. He plop a fight. The priest at the time had been there for years and years and years and he came outside and he wept and he said to me, Chris, Chris, he said, I'm never going to go to an execution again, that was terrible. The struggle and the fact that it didn't go down smoothly, is that what disturbed the priest? Yeah, it was awful. I've seen a few executions in my time shooting, some in those in the

Marines for years. I've seen a lot of executions and terrible things, but that was an execution that you know, you look back at it and you're saying, right, the reason he was naked was because they told him to get out of his prison shorts. He had flip flots and prison shorts because if you went to the gallows with those you saw all the shorts and then they got a washer. So they told him to put his civilian clothes on and he said no. And with that they just dragged him out of his cell, hold out of them, beat the he, he qualified. Whether capital punishment is justified or not is a, sort of a much longer question for a different time, but that does seem a little barbaric to have some naked in the 21st century being hanged.

Well, yeah, I mean, Jesse DeFiro in America, he went out and flames because the electric air was all, it was like, and what, well, acquire in the green mile, it was exactly the same scenario, the blood-court fire. It wasn't properly calibrated, wasn't wetened. No, no, they just, it was a boxed, a electric chair, they tried to fix it but they wouldn't repair it properly and they fried it to death. I mean, that happens, but the point is, on the matter of capital punishment, I'm quite often asked that question and I always say, look, it's none of our damn business.

If the people in Texas are sick and tired of having their little babies and their mothers and their wives, no elderly people killed for a pocket for the chains by scum. And these people, no, like John Scripps did when he went to Singapore, their signs everywhere, you break our law, you drug smuggling or murder, we will hang you no matter what. Now these people aren't in same way they commit this crimes, Chris, they know what they're doing as well. And why should I legislate for people in Texas? They're set for them to decide just like we wouldn't expect

people to tell us to bring back hanging here. It's none it's it's it's it's forced courses, but these people I mean hit, hit in Brady should have been hung. No doubt about it. What the horrific crimes they carried out, they should have been hung. But there are people out there say, oh no, God wouldn't like that. We're all equally in the eyes of God. Well, you tell that to the parents of those murdered children to what they say. I think the only compelling argument that I think I've heard against capital punishment is to do with the retribution versus a rehabilitation argument that on one side it is a, it's the law enacting

revenge on behalf of the public as opposed to it being an opportunity to try and rehabilitate people. But as you've mentioned there, there are crimes that are so heinous and people who are so far gone that you think, well, that you think well what is left to salvage of this person. The first thing that your viewers must understand is you cannot reform or rehabilitate the psychopath. It's impossible. That's a fact of life. The second thing you should realize is that when these people commit these crimes they know exactly what the punishment could be. Whether acts as a deterrent or not, in that knowledge is another matter, it didn't act as a deterrent for John Spirits. So, the offender makes the decision.

Judge Stuart Nam and Long Island one day, and he's a hard-knosed judge. He said, no, it was judge, judge stark. He told me he said to me, Chris, society makes the laws. We have to live by these laws, otherwise it's anarchy. If an offender commits a heinous crime and knows that the death penalty is applicable, then we really, we merely provide the rope. He's made the decision and it's up to him. A simple analogy would be, if you parked your car on a double yellow line and get a ticket, don't complain about it. You knew what you were doing was wrong. That's a simple analogy. You're right. You are right. I want to ask, across your very long career, kind of hitting the big players in the world of murder and depravity, who are some of the ones

that disturbed you the most or that played on your mind the most. None of the ones I've interviewed have played on my mind. None of the ones I've interviewed have played on my mind. None of the ones I've interviewed have played on my mind. None of the ones I've interviewed have played on my mind. None of the ones I've interviewed have played on my mind. None of the ones I've interviewed have played on my mind. None of the ones I've interviewed have played on my mind. None of the ones I've interviewed have played on my mind. None of the ones I've interviewed have played on my mind. None of the ones I've interviewed have played on my mind. None of the ones I've interviewed have played on my mind. None of the ones I've interviewed have played on my mind. None of the ones I've interviewed have played on my mind. None of the ones I've interviewed have played on my mind. None of the ones I've interviewed have played on my mind. None of the ones I've

interviewed have played on my mind. None of the ones I've interviewed have played on my mind. None of the ones I've interviewed have played on my mind. None of the ones I've interviewed have played on my mind. None of the ones I've interviewed have played on my mind. None of the ones I've interviewed have played on my mind. None of the ones I've interviewed have played on my mind. None of the ones I've interviewed have played on my mind. None of the ones I've interviewed have played on my mind. None of the ones I've interviewed have played on my mind. None of the ones I've interviewed have played on my mind. None of the ones I've interviewed have played on my mind. None of the ones I've interviewed have played on my mind. None of the ones I've interviewed have played on my mind. None of the ones I've interviewed have it, but I think one of the most heinous killers of all time was Peter Curtin, German girl. I mean, there are, there are, there are, Prave monsters and now are the devil spawned and Curtin was one of them. and Curtin was one of them. Bianchi, he murdered also two little schoolgirls

in Rox Angeles with Angela Bono. I went to the body dumping site above the Camel there, the law superior and Sonja Johnson, to our views old. He won Bono raped one little girl. The other girl said to Ken outside the bedroom door, where's Sonny? And he smuggled her and said, you'll be seeing her in a minute.

The last thing in her little school girl, so it was a dead, mutilated little friend laying on the bed beside her. They dumped the bodies naked on the hillside and I've got the scene to cry for a girl, so I've described her when I was at the Lerosco, the film crew. The dumping site was a place where they dumped trash. And I was assigned right next to it all, says no dumping of rubbish here. And yet there's all this garbage scattered and two little girls. I mean, that is so sick you can't imagine it. That's not the German guy though, right? I was that the German guy. The last one,

not just one, that was kind of Bianca the other side's strangler. Now he's married three women in prison and they divorced him and he fleeced them of money. And and now is an ordained priest and a member of the American Bar Association. Get your head around that. So this is the multifaceted life that serial killers seem to lead. Ted Bundy, self-representing, you know, saying, I'm going to put my own case forward. I'd like to do my own getting rid of his representation at the time and then deciding that he was going to step up and you know, someone that it becomes ordained and then passes the bar. Like, there's obviously a lot of momentum behind these individuals. They have capacity to do things. It's just that it's directed into such a heinous,

destructive path. Coming back to Bundy was too clever for his own good. When eventually faced for all, when eventually there was a resty down in Florida and I went to the Kaya Meekah house where we killed these Aleve and Bowman and attempt to kill another one. And I interviewed the cops there as well, quite interesting thing, but I met his lawyer, what was the prosecutor of the lawyer? And he said, all Chris is, I mean, you might be interested in, he said, this is what got under the electric chair. And I thought, what's this then? And he held out a pair of white dentures, cast white castes. He said, yeah, no, that's the reason. We've buried some teeth. So that's Ted Bundy's original dentures that were taken after he was arrested. And I said to the explorer, I said, well, he didn't have to give those to you,

did he? You know, he said, we're condom. He said, we told him because he was famous and the presser being in front of him, in front of the cameras all the time, he should look his best and his teeth really needed some work. So they took, and he agreed because he was vain and he was an asses, a little pig. And so they took these dentures, but then they compared those dentures with the bike marks on these alleviate buttocks. And that was the death sentence. Too clever for his uncle. I remember watching that in the documentary.

Hearing you speak about these individuals and the way that you write as well in the book, it's very evocative, you put your own opinion into the way that you describe them as well. And I don't know whether it's simply because it's not my profession and I've never been exposed to them, but I just can't get over how Balzi it is. To me, it just, it seems like such a brave thing to do to speak. And I know it's stupid. Like Ted Bundy's gone. I can say whatever I want about him. But there's part of me that fears still fears even the essence of them. Does that make sense? Part of me that wants to almost distance myself from from saying anything

for fear that this creature in the night is going to somehow come in an act of retribution. No, but if you're a god, I'm pretty godfair in person believe it. I mean, I have, I have got a nicked copy of Gideon's Bible which I carry. I'm supposed to nick it. Christopher, come on. No, it found its way into my suitcase. I promise you're on it. I promise. No, when the maid came and cleared up the room and she was asking me, I said, I'm a Godfaring person.

I think she probably thought it was my Bible and she was very kind of put it in there. As I was on a flight back to the UK from the Philippines. I thought, well, I better keep it. And I do pray every night. I mean, I do pray. I mean, I was on a particularly horrible homicide in Manila. Late last year, Halloween last year. A friend of mine, I won't say who he is.

What was it the American Embassy asked me. Could I go and visit, had a homicide in Macarty and Manila. There was a working girl that had been axed, tortured. We did some, why did it get a crime profile? I've got some photographs of me with a major. They treated me like gold and he's got some of my books now. But what we call the Guives of German Guy, it wasn't hard, but they're not particularly crime pro-file-oriented out there in the Philippines.

What they do is they catch somebody then, they shoot them dead, they don't worry. But this was particularly hard. I mean, I saw this. The girl died. she was beautiful, she was a working girl, she was only 32, she had two kids, she had to go on the streets to her money, she's absolutely stunningly beautiful in life. And they tied her up, talked to her and the last thing that she did was one eye open and the tear ran brand-energy and then she died. And when we got the guy within three days, and it wasn't difficult to profile him

because her body ended up a long way for where she was last seen in a nightclub. So that stands that the person must have had his own car. And then we got the CCTV, and there were were other witnesses and there was a tall guy who thought he was German with a tattoo on his shoulder and me and the guy from the Embassy American Embassy sat down with these girls because they were reluctant to talk to the police and one of them happened to mention in passing all these friends on Facebook. God, what a crack.

So he went through the Facebook and there's a list of contacts and this girl said, that's it. Now I think was always flying back on the Sunday on the 7th, I think it was. Business class right to debi, and then back to London with the Emiratesates and that morning the police were going to raid, they were going to catch him, they said we're going to get a Chris and they said we're going to smash you to get SWAT teams out there they go for it and the major said, look Chris, you said you can have Mike Garnie said and he could shoot him if you like. I mean it, don't mess about out there, I'm telling you, I'm not messing about at all. No, I'm telling you this is God's truth. Later I learned,

I said, well you get a life sentence, they said, well, not really. And what they do is they take them to court in, in like a pickup truck with just a tarp all on the top wooden benches inside the rug, because it's hot. hot and to most side this with a past a billion pass through throughout the long side with crash-hubble so I'm going to shot you to blues end up that was it please why bother with the trot? It's a lot quicker and simpler to just kill them on the way there. Yeah that's it so it's all the problem with the embassies and all this sort of stuff and that was all done and dusted. That is insane. And so tell us about the the German

fella that you mentioned, the one that you said was pretty disturbing. Peter Kern. If you look up evil and depraved in a rose extra thorus for depravity and they look at all the symptoms that go all the way down at least, he's one of them. In fact, if you look up depraved in the dictionary, Peter Kerns face to be looking back at you. Why? He was, I can tell you because I'm just starting to chapter on him. How can one possibly so much say the sexual serial killer be the curtain?

And in essence, to answer this question, one might require rose accessories to also look up to prey, since to the simmums running along these lines. Sexual pervert, beastly, unequal, genius, vile, base corrupt, contemptible, murderous, etc, etc. A putrid, nauseous, loathsome, direbolic example of the devil spawn might be our start point. Fairly big headline. Fairly big headline. A very nasty little man. What did he do? Well he rate little babies and the kids and he'd go around the village lake and chop the head off a swan and drink the blood and he was a vampire, he was a, he was into digging up bodies and he, in lots of

bodies and after he murdered him, I mean this guy was really, and he lived with, he's, woman, he lived with his wife for years, he'd never suspected the thing. He said, he said, he raped babies and set him on fire and let him squirm to death. I mean, that's not good, is it? But they did chop his head off. Chopped his head off in Germany. Yeah, they're gonna see them. Is that still going to Germany?

It's it's a car. It's Dr. can't yeah, ex-can, Dr. Canberra called him the king and this is his doctor called him the king of sexual perverts. That's his doctor, he's only a that every day from your local Jew, can you do?

I should open up. That is incredible. So that's, I mean, that seems like it's really, you know, even Ted Bundy wasn't cutting the head off swans and drinking their blood and setting babies on fire after raping them. Oh. So we automatically, people automatically, when you ask anybody, I get hundreds of messenger.

I always answer messenger. I always write back to my readers. So I mean, it can be quite a long time, but my readers are my customers and I value them very much. In fact, without us publishers, we would not be in business without readers. So I got not, and your viewers are the same. you know, we would not be in business if it wasn't for your people. So we value them 100%. But, you know, we got to learn about these people. It's no good shot. The dog pretending they're not there. But what is bad,

and I will say this now, there was a man called Colin Pitchflop who murdered two schoolgirls up in the Midlands years ago. He raped him and killed him. He got a natural life sentence. He's now walking around amongst us under an assumed name. He's now walking around amongst us under an assumed name. The guy that killed one of the guys that killed that little boy that shopping mall years ago, bridge water, coverage water. He's he's out and about in society.

He lives not far from me. But you mentioned earlier on, you said psychopaths are essentially irredeemable. Yeah. There's nothing. And I think it was, I want to say Arthur Shawcross, but it might not be someone that was part of one of the series that you were involved in. I was watching earlier on. And they were let out after it's serving 18 months of good behaviour and upon that happening then reentered into society. What's your cost? It's your cost did 15 years of a 23 year sentence and the psychiatrist said the probe would always fit to be released and he went on killed about 12 prostitutes.

Very well may have been that. So I mean, what does this mean for the, how are we supposed to litigate against this? You know, what do we do? Well, the problem is what you've got to remember, and I say this in my books, and I'll say it to you now, and I tell you what you're reading, and I say it on TV as well, after trying these psychiatrists to let these people out,

and got a clue, they live on another planet. They live in a world where lib balls bounce, fairies range of premium elephants fly. Their falls, in fact, in some of the cases, the psychiatrists are more mad than the people they're representing or analysing. And that's the fact. Getting it wrong, the price of getting this sort of an assessment wrong, or being outwitted by a serial killer is 15 lives as you just identified with Arthur Shortcroft. Doug Cross wielded his way to the prison psychiatric unit and he learned the cycle battle speak. And he was counselling other inmates.

This is a fact. And so when it came up for parole, always reformed E-Twee's funerary aren't them. Next minute is kill and prostitutes by handful. Chew in the vagina, spit in the bones out and go and eat and dunk in donuts with the cops and listen into who they're trying to catch. Yeah, that was it. So there was this story about one of the cops that was part of the investigation came and sat next to him on the stoop, right? And he had shiny shoes on. Arthur had shiny shoes and like he looked quite smart. And because this investigation was so wide-ranging, the cop came and sat next to him and started

sort of telling him about all of the different things that were going on. They said, well, we're looking for him because he just presumed he's got shiny shoes on. He must be a policeman. Yeah, I mean, I interviewed Paul Beechham. It brought my hospital years ago. I interviewed Ronnie Cray as well, funny enough, but he was a mass murderer, Paul. He was a great artist. He loved painting. We strapped up a good relationship. And then he met a woman called Paul Riddle'sworth. It was a social worker. Went to the went to hospital.

And then he was released. But I dropped, you know, and this is a true story. And he came to stay with me at my cottage in in Perdrich, in Hampshire. And we talked about painting. We took my two gun dogs. I had guns funny enough. I kept them in the hamptsham. And we talked about painting, we took my two gunbugs, I had guns funny enough, I kept them in the garage when he visited, but we went on the long of the river

of Winchester and we talked about stuff, and then that night I went to bed and in the morning a wove of cup and the kitchen was spotless and there was a note saying, Christopher, I'll never be as good artist as you, he said, I've got to go now, I've got to go, enough is enough. A week later he blooded his wife to death and buried her under the patio then he took the shotgun and blew his head off. Now what I couldn't understand was when I was

visiting with Paul in the autumn we were walking around the grounds of Paul Moore and there was a guy wreaking up leaves. And Paul said to me, that man's a psychiatrist. I said, no, he's not Paul, he's in one of your mates. And he looked up, he said, Chris, he's a psychiatrist. He said, he turns into a fly at night and watches me. He picked up, he walked over to this guy, took the rake off and snapped around here with a rake. He said he won't come into my cell tonight and buzz around. And he'll be able to do that a broad more. They let him out.

But then you let him into your house? Yeah, because there was something about Paul that I felt very, very safe with. He was very funny. He had a very boyish laugh about him, but he was fascinated with oil paint, which is any produced some of the most beautiful copier paints. And I had one for years, actually, the Green Lady. And I am quite a well-known oil painter as well. And we both hit it off. I mean, I hit it off with Peter Sackler

because Peter Sackler was doing watercolours at the time in Broadmore. So we had that thing about painting. So you don't always go in, like a bull in a timer shop. Sometimes it's finding out, like I said, what paint to use? I get that, but letting someone into your house that you know is capable of this. And by definition, the fact that within a week or a couple of weeks later, he then went

to commit a crime, committed suicide. Like it's obviously it wasn't, he hadn't rid himself of this. I've just again, I keep coming back to the fact that I can't, it's a big pair of brass balls that you've got on you. Well, all I can say is I was in the Marine for 11 years and I don't give a rat about anything. I was a Greenberry. But the thing is, your viewers can look at Paul Beechim, on Google. While he came out, he was heavily sedated when he was released under supervision. He married this woman by the way.

And then he started, when we were walking around the river, he said, Chris, they're watching me all the time. He said, in my, yeah, a sign writing business. And he said, Chris, they're watching me, all the. They talk about me in the local pubs and they said, my, my wife, she's, she's got some money on the back. And she had two sons, funny enough. And they, she said, well, I think you ought to sit down with my boys and tell them what your history, because I know. And he did he sit down to these two sons and told him that he's a muscular,

and he'd come out of football and they accepted him. He was a good dad. He turned into a good dad but he was just schizophrenic and when the medication wore off and he refused to take more medication, he became more schizophrenic, more paranoid, I met him in that period where he was and what we would do, we were a form of escapism with the paintings. We talked about canvases, pigments, brushes, sables, bristle brushes, palettes, we talked about it. You know, and he loved dogs, so that was it. So, there we are. But the fact that he cleaned up the kitchen tidy and he left the note meant a lot to me. I think the crazy thing to take away, or at least if one of the things I'm taking away is that

these people are so multifaceted, you look at, you look at someone like that gentleman or Ted Bundy or this John Robinson or whoever it might be. And I think it seems safer to presume that they are across the board crazy, that you would be able to pick them out a mile off because they'll be walking down the street, pulling their heads off birds and wearing a big yellow t-shirt, dancing upside down. But I think the fact that someone who's capable of that sort of atrocity is also capable of doing good watercolour and will clean your kitchen and leave you a note saying, thank you in the morning, the fact that you have that juxtaposition between the incredibly normal and the incredibly abnormal. I think that's what's really disturbing me.

Well, the thing with Paul, he was generally mentally ill. Peter Sutcliffe conned himself into Brawmory, he wasn't mentally ill. He conned the psychiatrist for years before they moved into a secure prison because he was too mouthful. He wasn't mentally ill, but Paul, Paul Beechham was mentally ill. There's no doubt about that at all. He was a sick man and, you know, I have to have some compassion for somebody that is mentally ill because it is not their problem. He's not a, he wasn't a psychopath. He wasn't evil in the sense that we, that he went out to rape and kill and torture people. He just felt the worms inside his head, he, he, inside his head. You, that is a sad situation to be in. And I've got every sympathy for somebody like that.

So I felt safe with him. I knew where we were together. But the scum that I work with generally and research and write about are just pure evil. They're in control of the faculties. They know what they're doing. are just pure evil. They're in control of the faculties, they know what they're doing, they know why they're doing it. Yeah, 100%.

100%. And you know, you could be sitting on a bus and a man could be watching her from a seat back. Next day, she might see him again in the supermarket because I saw him on the bus. That guy could be a stalker. see back. Next day you might see him again in the supermarket, so I'm sorry, I'm under bass. That guy could be a stalker. I've just written a book about how much I was stalking comes out next to him. Do I remember this later at the moment? Well, I've got another fort five books to write. I mean, I'm a Brahmin W into the

chivalry. I just can't believe it. I mean I've never written a book for money. I wrote my first book about Craig and Bentley years ago called Dead Help Me Please, Robin O'Deal, the great writer, went a lead title, like you're teaching me the wrote, but I was the lead author. That book got very bent at your post in this pardon. It made the film let it have it starring Christopher Exton and the following year was the reader's digest non-fiction hardback number one title. And I said after the stress of that I thought I never want to book again. It's about 38 books later. LAUGHTER

Thank you. You're a glutton for Punishment Christopher. I have to say, you know, you're right, walking through WH Smith, especially because of the way that your covers are designed. I think the talking with serial killers stuff particularly really stands out. I don't know what it is about. It's very grabbing. That's a brand years ago, 2000 and 2003, I did all these serial killer interviews and I approached a number of publishers. One was Virgin or I'd been published with before to say that I've got, I'm going to use all the killer's own words in this lot. And in

those days, I mean, the serial killer series we made, the Lem 12-part series, by May the Fraser Ashford, they'd never, ever been in prison before. We broke the mold, we would once are sitting there with a killer's face to face and it'd never been done before. That was a groundbreaking, and then I wrote this book, and of course the virgin turn around and said to me over the phone, well Chris I'm sorry that it's not for us, it's not a sort of book, it might upset our ladies with grey rinses. And then Temis later John Blake phoned me, he said I have it, he took a brave move because the first time book ever been published in criminal history that contain the killer's own terrible words.

Then an hour later, Virgin rang back and said, we've reconsidered, we'll have that book. I said, sorry, I've sold it. It was John Blake who came up with talking with the talking material killer's brand, if you like. And now that's what it is. Absolutely fine. I am. And now it's that's what it is. Absolutely fine. I am. The mad thing is the serial killer true crime obsession appears to skew quite heavily female in my knowledge. In any case, so Virgin, perhaps letting that one slide, perhaps that was exactly the sort of thing

they needed to just reignite their ladies with the grey rinses and get them back into the book. The one thing I'm always keen to stress in all of my books is As Empathy and Sadness and for the grieving next up in. I think you can never, ever make these people, there was a movie called Bundy Ted Bundy, the American icon. I can't identify, what does I con mean? You know, they're not, they're not iconic. It's just a scumbag.

But the thing is, I've always got this thing because when I interviewed Artistic Law Cross about Jack Blake, I've been to see his sister and his perifamily and they lived in a little, little places, a bit of a tip. I've been to see his sister and his perifamily and they lived in a little little Place a bit of a tip They went out and I got some British team at a camera crew with me and It's sister and family with her and she got out of her hair done Chris

especially and family with her and she got out of her hair done Chris, especially. And she said to me, could you please try to get her? She said, no Arthur hasn't killed Jack, she said, because every day we look out the window and we're going to see Jack walk down the road one day. Well that's why I got that confession out of a true-return place. And I went back to his sister and her family and they were shaking. And I said to the camera crew outside. And I sat down with her and she burst into tears. When I did one girl who listened more down in Texas without a show cross, I interviewed the mother, the body hadn't been recovered. There was a little girl, and I sat with her and her husband in a motel with a crew. And she told me that she'd been walking around the dirt roads of Texas

every night with a spade. Looking for a child. She was a wreck. I got her to look at the camera and plead with my duff. Please give me my daughter back as your mother would want your body back after you got. And I went to, I got a confession. This is one of my books, a weeded a confession out of them. And I think we found the body trust up in a drain hole within a hundred yards of a freeway, where if she screamed, nobody would have heard her. It's a poor little kid, trust up. I went back to her mum and I've said,

we found your daughter and another person to tease and I went outside and I smoked and I must have had right 20 cigarettes in ten minutes. And I started to cry because I've got daughters and I've got a little boy and her husband put his arm on my shoulders and he said God bless you he he said, you've just done it all for us. Thank you. Now, if all of that, oh my right in career, just brings one result like that.

I'm happy. Period. It's a no because I honestly that closure bringing some end, you know, to the torture of not knowing for families like that. It's worth the time. It's definitely worth all of the time and the effort and the danger that you put yourself in still blows me away. Absolutely. I want to go to that last point. I never wrote a book for money. I wrote that first book because I wanted to. I wrote that first book because I wanted to.

I wrote my second book, The Long Rock, because my grandfather is one of the lawyers in the murder of PC cartridge in Essex in 1927. I wrote it because it fascinated me. I wrote it because I was an intelligence officer in the Marines and I knew how to enter again. I knew to get inside people's head. I knew about certain about about torture And I knew it and I thought to myself, this is so fascinating, but I never, ever, you can't write like this and research like this and do these things. An issue you want to because the money you never get, you wouldn't get it back. By the grace of God, I've had some best solace. That's all it is. And that's because my publishers and their lawyers and their promotion people, I'm just there, one of, I just push the pen around. I tell Toby Bucking might be their executive

editor. And he's Lord Bucking of Tweets, my friend, his grandfather was, so John Bucking wrote 39 steps. We've been together on four or five books now. I'm just part of a team. That's all it is. And the most important part of the team, the people that watch your podcast and the people that buy our books, they are the most important and we must never forget that. Well, I'll lovely way to end, Christopher, thank you so much. I think it's a really nice way to put it across as well, like the fact that, as you say, pursuing something which is difficult and challenging and worthwhile and has this higher calling and you haven't, you're adept at it and it brings across more, you know, how much value

millions and millions and millions of pounds, billions of pounds for that one woman to have that closure. There is no price that you could put on being able to bring that to someone and there is no amount of books that you could have sold that would have matched the amount of satisfaction and pleasure and sense of purpose that you derive from being able to give that to someone. I want to leave you on a humorous note, when I was being interviewed by an Australian firm recently, I'll get the TV company to come over to interview me. And it's the same stuff questioned.

Christopher, does this ever affect you? When I say no, and they say, why not? I say, I'll come from Paul Smith. Well, I don't know.お疲れ様にお聞きしますお疲れ様にお聞きしますお疲れ様にお聞きしますお疲れ様にお聞きします お疲れ様にお聞きします お疲れ様にお聞きします お疲れ様にお聞きします

お疲れ様にお聞きします お疲れ様にお聞きします お疲れ様にお聞きします お疲れ様にお聞きします お疲れ様にお聞きします お疲れ様にお聞きしますお疲れ様にお聞きします Talking with serial killers, dead men talking death Rose worst killers in their own words will be linked in the show notes below Pick it up on Amazon. Is there a Audible versions and stuff like that as well?

I think yeah, we've got some audible versions out talking books are out, but I don't think it's that terrible got you Okay, there are two there are two by hang on there were two by the actor, these ones, Colin Mace. Okay. He's done these talking books and I'll tell you what, he's got me to teach. He's got me more brilliant. I love it. I love it.

Look, Christopher, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it. First podcast, you've done fantastically well. I absolutely love the book. Everyone that's listening, you need to go and check it out. It's fascinating. I really like the idea of you serving a higher cause as well with this, Christopher. I think putting your talents to use it.

Thank you. I love you, much Chris. I love every second of this. And all I want to say to you is sweet dreams and no nightmares please. I'm gonna try thank you so much for your time mate I'll catch you later on. God bless bye. you