Modern Wisdom - #275 - Andy Ngo - Unmasking Antifa: Inside America's Anarchy

Episode Date: January 28, 2021

Andy Ngo is a journalist and an author. Andy has been on the front lines to observe some of the most radical, intense rioting in America, including the barricading of cities downtown, shootings, calls to defund the police and attacks on federal buildings. Expect to learn what it was like going undercover with Antifa in Seattle's CHAZ, how it feels to live in Portland where Antifa are most prevalent, whether Andy thinks the Capitol Hill Riots would have happened if Trump had won and much more... Sponsors: Get 20% discount on the best coffee in Britain with Uncommon Coffee’s entire range at http://uncommoncoffee.co.uk/ (use code MW20) Extra Stuff: Buy Unmasked - https://amzn.to/3chxMxm  Follow Andy on Twitter - https://twitter.com/MrAndyNgo  Check out Andy's website - https://www.andy-ngo.com  Get my free Ultimate Life Hacks List to 10x your daily productivity → https://chriswillx.com/lifehacks/ To support me on Patreon (thank you): https://www.patreon.com/modernwisdom - Get in touch. Join the discussion with me and other like minded listeners in the episode comments on the MW YouTube Channel or message me... Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/ModernWisdomPodcast Email: https://www.chriswillx.com/contact Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello friends, welcome back. My guest today is Andy Noe, journalist and an author. Andy has been on the front row for some of the most radical intense rioting in America, including the barricading of cities downtown, shootings, calls to defund the police and attack some federal buildings. So today expect to learn what it was like going undercover with Antifa in Seattle's Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone, how it feels to live in Portland where Antifa are most prevalent, whether Andy thinks the Capitol Hill riots would have happened

if Trump had won, and much more. You will be familiar with Andy from the internet. He is the number one guy who understands what is happening with Antifa in this anarcho-communist movement that's sweeping America. Some pretty scary takeaways, but I think it's really important for everybody to be informed and being frank, I'm just glad that I live in the UK

where we seem to not be swayed as much by this sort of crazy mentality. No matter where you are from though, I would like you to press that subscribe button on whatever podcast app you are listening on. It only takes two seconds to do and it would make me very happy indeed. We charted in the top 30 last week on Apple Podcasts chart and your

boy wants to hit the top 10. So just navigate to the little podcast app and press subscribe for me. I thank you. But for now, it's time for the wise and wonderful Andy No. Was getting people to scream, stop selling Andy No's book in your hometown a part of your marketing strategy. It's pretty good for you advertising. I was not part of the strategy, but a lot of people did end up hearing about the book because of the six day efforts by Antifa to get it banned. Which unfortunately was partially successful on that Portland's largest bookstore immediately came out and said they would not stock it on its shelves.

And this is a bookstore, by the way, a very popular Portland institution that every year dedicates a week to books that are censored and banned. So there's sad eye in either. Two bands to be part of the unband book week. Right. That's serious, but obviously the elephant in the room is that almost everyone's going to buy your book from Amazon or bands and nobles or whatever. Yeah, I hope so. I mean, I'm just, you know, the goal is to get people informed about what's happening. And I think there's a lot of misconceptions about antifa out there from both the left and the right. And this book tries to

explain in one place where people can understand the ideology, the history, and how they organize, and what all that comes together actually looks like and practice. So I go into detail particularly of what happened in the Pacific Northwest of the United States throughout 2020, my home city of Portland, which I've had to flee because of death threats against me. We had more than 120 nightly days of violence. So in your country, Britain, you had sporadic violence that happened last year. Imagine if that was reoccurring day after day after day

for months on end, and that's what happened in my city. And it's still ongoing. It's terrifying, man. So let's start. Who are Antifa? The Antifa claim to be anti-fascists. They're actually anarchists communists who are really working to destabilize governments, particularly the jurisdictions in the United States because they want to ultimately overthrow the US.

So they take inspiration from historical anarchist communist communes and they try to carry out these experiments wherever they can. And to do so in America was always a pipe dream for them given how strong law enforcement institutions are and the military, etc. But in 2020 things just completely was flipped upside down when after George Floyd died, then the every excuse on the fringe extreme far left to carry out violence was excusing the mainstream left and it was in that context that Antifa BLM, for example, in Seattle, the largest city in the Pacific Northwest, they actually claimed sovereign territory,

or territory that they said was sovereign from the United States for more than three weeks. And they actually have the blessing of the city council as well as the mayor. And immediately, despite what the media was saying, describing it as a block party, some of love, I spent time there, we undercover a writer path out in the book.

It devolved within days, into an area where there were shootings, and people ended up getting killed and murdered there. What's the end goal that Antifa want? Antifa's vision of so-called Antifa Shures and means a world without nation-states, without borders, without capitalism. Because, and this is where their ideology is very based on these old left-wing theories, particularly critical theories of where these are these interlocking systems of oppression. So they believe, for example, the US is a fascist imperialistic state because it's

a state that propagates capitalism around the world and capitalism is what is linked to white supremacy and racism and fascism as well. So they're wanting to end not just the United States, but I think more what we're seeing now, like we're actually having successes, delegitimizing and attacking systematically the ideas that make up the United States, so actually in the Western liberal democracy. So they go extremely hard against freedom of expression. That's one of their core tenets. That's why they carry out acts of wanting political violence against their political opponents, because in their re-making of words, violence is not actual violence. It's having the wrong idea. is not actual violence, it's having the wrong idea. So when they are attacking people,

that they accuse of being fascist, the white supremacist, and they use that label on anyone, by the way. In their mind, they call it self-defense, because if you had the idea that they called fascists, that is an attack on them, therefore, they need to preemptively, physically attack you and destroy property. And you know, this is all, it's, you know, it would be

like, I would like to just laugh because it's so outrageous and obviously a charade and a forest, but unfortunately they didn't give in legitimacy in our papers, the record in your country as well as mine, and people who are on the last but not the extreme fringe far left have become allies with them, because they really do think that when Trump was elected that that was a sudden American fascism that we were on the precipice of another holocaust. All of this was bogus and it was just a pretense for them to carry out their agenda of destabilizing governments, local governments, and they've been able to do that with quite success. And I've not exaggerating what I'm saying, and you can read as you can see in the book,

how, because the local officials gave them the space to do what they were doing for so long throughout 2020. They really have created and embedded these networks and systems to maintain rights ongoing. Because that does take a lot of organizing and takes time, it takes connections, it takes people, it takes people, takes money, all of that, which they've been able to establish. And they've been trying to export these bloop prints and plans to other cities, which is why later on after George Floyd died and later months when there was rioting in Wisconsin, some of the people who arrested there drove all the way or flew in from other parts of the country like the Pacific Northwest. It's interesting to me to hear you talk about the potential origin of the mainstream of Antifa in the US being Trump's election back in 2016-2017, but what do you think, Antitha thinks of Joe Biden?

There was probably a hope that after Biden won the election, perhaps the Antifa violence would calm down. Yeah, so that didn't happen. We're now many weeks until 2021, months after Trump had won the election in November, and there's been more than a dozen riots that have happened in the Pacific Northwest. Some people were surprised, they thought, oh, these are Biden supporters. No, they're not actually.

If you look at what they say, look at the Banners, for example, one of the banners that they carried on the inauguration day, right in Portland, was a large one that said we don't want Biden, we want revenge, and there's a large image of a question called rifle, if that wasn't subtle enough. And so they don't recognize the American government period. They're working to overthrow it. They don't recognize any president, the legitimacy of any president. So that means opposing before the current administration,

yes, opposing Trump, but opposing any administration that would replace Trump anyways, because they don't see the US government as legitimate, they view it as a faster state that must be over its growth. So this is what I mean when I say that people on the mainstream left who have been feeding and feeding and growing those beasts because they shared a mutual enemy in the Trump administration or against Republicans, whatever, well, now this beast is too big to slay and we've seen the vioners that they've carried out. They've attacked, they've assaulted the mayor of Portland, the mayor of Portland, Tadwila.

Is somebody who gave them the space to grow under his watch and they turn around and have attacked him. They showed up to the homes of people on City Council, important for example, who voted against defunding the police. So, and the thing is, they're not getting held accountable when they're carrying out its criminal activities. It's not just that they're doing it, it's that they're doing it, and then doing it over and over and over because there's no consequence. So one of the projects that I'm known to is getting the public records of people who arrested at riots and we have now a sample size and just an important of around a thousand cases and the overwhelming majority by that I mean more than 90% how the charges immediately dropped by the prosecutor,

who is a poll of addition, it's an elected position who campaigned on a so-called progressive platform. And as soon as he came into office, last summer, he literally decriminalized felony rioting. That was one of the things that will be automatically discharged. So like this is the reality of what's happening in parts of America. It's

not hyperbole when the DOJ last year described some parts of the US as anarchist jurisdictions, because you do have a breakdown of the rule of law, the system's not working, and these extremists are exploiting civil rights, human rights, to carry out their wanton violence in the name of free speech and right to protest. And unfortunately they've been given cover, you know, I keep going back to the media because they wouldn't have been able to they've been given cover, you know, I keep going back to the media because they wouldn't have been able to do so much damage if there wasn't this anti-fotocking point that was mainstream which claims that people over property that the luting and breaking and starting fires and destroying buildings and businesses, that's not violence because it's on an inanimate object.

This is like Portland is really a first world slum if you go to it downtown. They're trying to create an environment where people don't have trust in law enforcement and one level and two law enforcement just don't have the resources to even respond to crimes that are happening in the cities. We have a huge uptake in most American urban areas and put in violence. Police officers across many many departments are resigning in droves or taking early retirement. So all of the conditions that allowed things to get so bad in 2020, they're all still there and Trump was never a real variable. That was just a convenient excuse.

That's terrifying, man. There's so many points that I agree with there, specifically talking about how allowing them to embed in, create these organizational structures, and also sort of the intellectual structures understanding how they need to develop, and then writing up, you go through basically a curriculum in the book of how they indoctrinate and train new members into Antifa, but it's kind of the same way that a cancer grows. If it's just one cell that turns, the other cells around it can

attack, but after a little bit of time, if you get too many cells, they can metastasize and actually turn into a genuine cancer, and that's a much bigger operation to try and get rid of. It seems to be the same. a first world slum in somewhere like Portland, and wasn't it the homicide rate increased by 200%, the most it's been in a number of decades, something like that? Correct, that's right, thank you, during the height of the riots.

So we've been having this unprecedented, unprecedented level rise in shootings and gun-related homicides and portland. And this has been like, Antifa have been celebrating this. They're really happy because the whole they want, they say they want to abolish the American criminal justice system, abolish police and all that, but what they essentially want to be is to replace the police with their own paramilitary type groups, and the cities under weak police leadership, under weak city council and weak state leadership have allowed them to do it. And so I'm not exaggerating when I say that in last year in particular when the rights for happening every night, parts of downtown were literally no gozons in that they had people

patrolling their own militias, people who are armed with weapons patrolling around to make sure that this huge part of downtown right outside of one of the court houses that they were trying weeks on end to burn down, that the only people who were there were their allies and supporters and members. So they've attacked countless number of press. As many people know, they beat me severely in 2019 and gave me a brain hummerage. So, like, they don't even hide the extremism in their violence. It's

not like they do it behind closed stores. They do it in the open and it gets captured on video and still people actually think that we're dealing with noble and antifascist who are just opposing races. You said something in the book that I really thought was a good quote, the intellectualizing of their arguments tries to mask the ruthlessness of their worldview. Because it does have this, you remember when you were in school and there was always that kid that had learned that was a bit of a quicker reader and maybe had a great grasp of language and would try and

flimax people in a school yard dispute. So actually your argument doesn't have very much internal validity there my friend and you're like it just smacked massively of all of the people who couldn't climb up a state this hierarchy normally in school and are now trying to cover over what is incredibly ruthless, very militant by using words that I don't think even they understand, they don't really make sense in the context that they're using them. They're born out of a bunch of very contradictory and self-deceiving philosophies, most of which I'm going to guess they might have read to take the box on the curriculum and then left it. It seems very self-defeating

and confused. Yeah, so then ideas are coherent in that these ideas are coming from 20th and 19th century philosophers, anarchists and communists, radical thinkers. If you look at the original text, they're very long, and can be confusing. So what they have, what they, the anti-fogue is they compress those ideas into pamphlets, and this becomes the backbone of the radicalization literature, that at all the rights they give out, when they were in the autonomous zone in Seattle,

at Chow's, they were giving out this literature. It's actually very similar to how Muslim Brotherhood will radicalize their members. Compressing larger text into these very easily quick reads that intellectualized political violence, intellectualized violence against the state, some of them even give instructions on how to make weapons, how to seize territory.

These are some of the things that I was seeing in chat. So I was really shocked that the press at the time was just completely overlooking this ideological extremism that was being preached in the open. You mentioned the curriculum part, that's from Ray City, which is the largest and oldest anti-file organization in the US. They're in Portland, GoFigure, and you'll see that in every single way, they are a formal and oldest anti-file organization in the US, their importment go figure, and you'll see that in every single way, they are a formal organization,

and the book details it, but like there's a recruitment process, as a vetting process, it's training, there's curriculum, there's reading, there's discussions, all these are done secretively. And one of the places they did it was at that feminist bookstore.

So like they do a lot of activities in the open that we can see that are criminal and they do a lot of other things behind closed doors and this book tries a light on both. The pamphlets sound like TikTok for anarchist philosophers not just condensing things down into the most easy to read, palatable way that they can do it. You mentioned about the structure and I think that it's interesting looking at the structure of Antifa. Does it actually have a leader?

Is it a single entity? It is not a single entity. So when Christopher Ray, who's the head of the FBI, when he gave testimony and said, Antifa is not an organization, he's technically correct, but he should have followed up by saying, but there are many Antifa groups and organizations who do share the same ideology,

whether they have an entity or not, and they are connected to net linking networks. So that's why you can have writers from Portland or Seattle know how to link with the anarchist communists who are in Wisconsin, which is thousands and thousands of miles away, or link with the extremist, Antifa, and thousands of miles away, will link with the extremist and too far in DC, very far away as well. So he should have followed up on that. But that's the thing. It is networks with decentralized groups, which makes taking them out much harder.

But we're not even, anyway, even near that step, because people, law enforcement, federal law enforcement, publicly at least, I don't know what they're doing behind the scenes, but I don't, I don't think they're even at the stage of whether they even recognize that there are these networks of groups that are connected, that do encrypted communications through signal and telegram, they do things that pretty much a lot of the jihadists do. They, I mean, it's not a coincidence that the uniforms look similar. I mean, it's meant to instill fear in the public in addition to being able to carry out asset criminality with the cloak of anonymity. So I've been disappointed

in the federal law enforcement response under the Trump administration and I don't, you know, I had no confidence that federal officials under the Biden administration. I'm gonna say, do you think it's gonna get any better? No. I can't. I could, you've got a laugh, man. Yeah, it's, it's so smart in one way, for all that you can see it's self-contradictory and they can't run a city to save their lives.

Literally, as people were dying inside of it and they had no running water and there was that plant, that vegetable plot that stopped within the space, all of the plants died within two days, and I can keep a plant alive for longer than two days, right? Like, I'm very not green-fingered. But yeah, there's certain elements of their operation that are incredibly sophisticated and all of the benefits that you see from decentralized cryptocurrencies, for instance, where it's not held on one server, it's very, very difficult to take down, you have this security, everything's backed up across multiple locations. You've basically got that ideologically with Antifa.

Yeah, I'm glad you brought up the thing about the garden because it is it's amazing on, you know, just looking at it, but also it's an anecdote that is actually what I've seen repeated over and over and that when it comes to building they cannot do it. And yet they claim they want to establish a utopia by abolishing the system, the system being everything about the United States. But what they are really extremely good at is destruction and creating misery. That's what they, that's all they can really do. And that's, so you notice when they are most successful, it's in carrying out acts of political violence and riding and awesome attacks and homicides. That's what they're really good at when it comes to actually building their own communes that they

purport to be working towards. It leads nowhere. Charles essentially was a wealthier state that depended on donations from foolish liberals who are pouring in tens of thousands of dollars into these banmos and cashouts so that people would bring in bottled water through 24-7 intents. Do you think Antifa would have rightly outside the capital if Trump had won? Do you think Antifa would have rightly outside the capital if Trump had won?

Yes, I think the violence that we saw in response to the death of George Floyd would have been repeated and may have been even amplified because they were given essentially the OK from Democrats. they were given essentially the OK from Democrats. So they would have had liberals who were supporting that right to Trump or to win. And I think the one thing about the response to the election that say from the right, particularly in the sixth or January, when there's a capital hill, so you should like, I was furious seeing these hollow condemnations from Democrats, people who were describing it essentially as another non- non-unilogone in America, when those acts of violence against the state in worse were

carried out night after night after night in other major American cities by Antifa and BLN. These people were encouraging of it or they actually even were sending out some of the links to the crowdfunding campaigns. Kamala Harris did that. People who work on the Joe Biden presidential campaign did that. So what happened at the Capitol should absolutely be condemned. But those same acts were done in Portland, in worse actually, because the people in Portland, over time, they became more sophisticated

and they kept returning. They would bring different weapons, they would bring explosives, they brought iron, they brought guns, projectiles, I write about all of their acts of terrorism in the book. And they even brought, I think what was most shocking was seeing them bring power tools so they could try to cut into the building so that they tried on more than one occasion to barricade the building and talking about the federal court health in downtown. So this is a federal property in Portland. So that's comparable to the federal property in DC. These people actually tried to barricade federal law enforcement inside and tried to set the

building on fire so they could kill everybody inside. This is the type of acts that they were doing in the way the media were covering at the time were describing law enforcement as Trump's secret police, Trump's Gestapo, and occupying force, people who were hurting these sort of protesters. What's the difference? Like, I know that left at the moment seems to be in with the media and it's just a lot cooler and it more easily accepted the talking points that come from the left. It seems that the left is affiliated with compassion, whereas the right is affiliated with bigotry, at least in the legacy media. But what is it? Why is it that you get so much condemnation for the

Capitol Hill riots and you get so much emission for what anti-foreding? It's because on many levels, I think there are a lot of Democrats who's hatred for Donald Trump and his administration and his supporters overshadowed their support in love for their country and standing up for the rule of law and standing up for America's institutions. I don't feel good saying that because I try to be bipartisan in my outreach. In a lot of this book, I'm hoping it will reach people on the left so they can recognize the threat that antifa poses to American liberalism, but just this pure hatred of the former president and what they thought he stood for just in their eyes legitimized all of these acts of extremism. And so what's worse is I think like a certain precedent has been set. He's obviously, I talk to people who were sympathetic to the right wing siege on Capitol Hill and one of the responses. And it wasn't, it didn't just happen in DC.

There were other similar like violent protests at other state capitals by Trump supporters on that day and before that. And the people who are expressing support for that, their view is, well, if Antifa and BLM get to riot over their cause and nothing gets based on legal consequence, they aren't condemned or praised, well, why do we have to be peaceful then? So why do we have to be peaceful then? So this is the thing too, like, Antifa creates reactionary forces as well. And they know that actually, which is why, I mean, everything about them, the existence, they have to justify by saying that they're in all position to something. So I have this like, Ant anti in front of their name.

So they do work to radicalize people on the far right, I think. They work to terrorize people at their homes, at their places, appointments, get them fired, get them pushed off mainstream platforms and push them to really scary places on the internet and it's like, anti-photocreating the things that they say they're there to fight actually. Absolutely. I had a, I did a video about this the other week talking about the tit for

tat mentality. You do this to me and then I come back as slightly more tough to you and then a little bit more tough to me and then so on and so forth. And it's just this endless spiral that I don't think is going to slow down. The elephant in the room is that fascists and white supremacists are not around every corner. Like they're just not. And the fact that you have this culpable accusatory game where you can say, well, that's because if you're implicit white supremacy, that's because you're being willfully ignorant about it. That's essentially just allowing the theory to never be falsified, but they're not around every corner. And one thing that other people have commented on as well is if Antifa do get themselves to the stage where

they really, really, really rile up the right. Like, there are some people on the right who are incredibly scary, they're significantly more trained, and they have a lot more guns. But the people on the right were originally the military threat. A lot of them are going to be ex-military. I think you saw that with some of the stats from arrests over the last couple of weeks that a lot of them did have military backgrounds. If it comes to a war between the two of them, which hopefully it won't, but if it does, I really fear for Antifa's hopes because there's some lethal weapons coming from the right.

Yeah, so they recognize that certain threat. They recognize that they're radicalizing people on the far right and the far right. Some of them are on, but their response has been not to end the cycle of polarization radicalizing, counter radicalization. Their response is we're going to arm that too. So you see, I write about about in the book like this, they don't issue guns or anything like that. At their rites, people are coming to their arms. Many of them have been arrested for illegally carrying loaded pistols. They carry rifles openly when they had chas. For example, they have their militia guarding their hard borders, and these people were armed with rifles, revolvers, pistols, etc. Part of the pro-Rositian antifilm, part of the training process included how to shoot guns and such. So they're preparing themselves for war, not just a war against a state but war against people on the far

right or the militarized right, whatever. So, and they're not afraid to kill, but as we've been discussing, they don't really have any metrics that are used to differentiate against people who are, let's say, a Trump supporter versus like somebody who's in neo-Nazi, they consider them all the same. And they think the response, they can apply the same response to all of them, which is why last summer, which is why last summer, importantly, not the height of the ride, they wanted the antithrust, volunteer security, shot and killed a Trump supporter, and then fled the state and went to hiding. Eventually, was killed by federal authorities. He had a pistol on him at the time, in the car where he was shot and killed.

There was a rifle. So I'm talking about Michael Rino. But he's not the only anti-focus kill. There's been other people as well. But we don't know their names of the stories because it doesn't fit this meopic focus that the mainstream press have on the reporting and extremism, which only focuses on right-wing extremism. In many times, they over-exaggerate things as well, making people, because, for example, this army that Antifa does, they look at the reporting and all that.

They look at the threat of the far right. Look at the threat of the far right. That's why we need to arm up. So it's like the media has been so complicit in creating this whole contact for political violence that thrive particularly on the far left and when it's time to report accurately on the extremism of antifower BLM, they're not there to do it. When antifower tell live streamers and journalists, you can't record us while we're writing or listen. So a lot of the footage that we've been seeing,

particularly in the past like five months or so, have been brave independent journalists who record secretlyively or with body cameras or they'll do it and then they get beat up. So you know whereas the legacy media they won't go into that. They just won't even cover it. You know they're still calling these rioters just protesters. You went undercover in the Capitol Hill autonomous zone and you talking quite detail about what it felt like, obviously, the last time that you were in a group like that or one of the last

times you were in a group like that. You were pretty badly beaten then developed a little bit of PTSD with regards to being in groups. You said that one of your friends convinced you that you should go. How much convincing did it take from that friend? And then can you tell us about what it was like walking into Chaz, blacked up, and obviously incredibly nervous? So after I was beaten in the summer of 2019, which by the way has led to no arrest. I still had no justice. And that part of that meeting was actually caught on camera. But that aside, I did develop an intense fear of being in public. Because

when I was beaten, it was completely, it started from behind, punches to the head. And there was just, and I was in front of essentially the main police station in downtown. So what happened within the eyesight of law enforcement, and it was right by all these court houses, so it should be an area that you would think is safe to walk down in the United States, but it wasn't. So, but I fast forward a year later and all the various therapies that I've had to address some of the cognitive, physical,

psychological issues of the attack. The, the spread of mine was just, he was, he was encouraging me to go to Chaz because it was such like a surreal, like it was unbelievable what had happened, like we knew from looking at the real coverage of what Antifa was saying and putting out themselves that this was a tear-cheese that they claimed as separate from the US. It wasn't just this block party that the press has claimed it to be. So for me, I had that fear, but I had to deal with it anyway, and to go up, because I knew there wouldn't be very many people who would get the truth out.

because I knew there wouldn't be very many people who would get the truth out. And I wore their uniform and it was very terrifying at times to be so scrutinized because just because you mask up and look like them, that doesn't make you like just one of them. They're suspicious because they actually do know they recognize, for example, the voice and body movements of their comrades. So if there's somebody in there who's stressed like one of them, but, for example, is not participating in rioting or violence, they question that.

So I spent five days there, and unfortunately on my last day, I was outed, and I had to flee from my life literally from Chaz. When the sad thing is this happened right in front of the East Police Station but it was an abandoned station. It's one where writers had caused the police to be barricaded up and police had completely evacuated from this whole six block area in Seattle. So yeah, I spent a night time there particularly. Why would you sleep in?

Well, I was during the day going to accommodation elsewhere and then at night going. You went nocturnal for a week. All the interesting stuff happens at night. Yeah, because that's when the press would leave. The press would only say that during the day that in Jerry's was giving up. I couldn't believe that. Free ice cream cones. That's right. Did that all during the day at night? This is when you would see right? Did it all during the day at night? This is when you would see essentially warlord like figures attempting to buy for control over the area. There was a drug kingpins and stuff like that rolling around in open-back trucks. There's people with no criminal backgrounds who were going around with their own entourage of people who were carrying weapons, yes.

who were going around with their own entourage of people who were carrying weapons, yes. Fuck. So what else did you see on the nighttime? What did you see that hasn't been reported? Um, fights were breaking out all over. There wasn't unity in this area at all because you had essentially different buying ideologies. So they were anti-fore there, and they marked their territory all over with their symbols and graffiti calling for police to be killed. The BLM were more, they viewed themselves as more along the lines of like revolutionary Marxists,

like one that you saw in the 70s, like Black Panthers and stuff like that. So they went down with wanton property destruction. They didn't think that was useful. So they did that did cause some friction in the boils over as well and essentially antifone won and knit this but they're they naturally racially segregated themselves in the white people who were in Antifa states stood together as a click where the black marks they were together in their separate area. So you know for this area that claimed to be founded on anti-racism and social justice. There was racial segregation.

And then on top of that, they had a 100% black homicide rate, 100% black shooting victim rate. Talk to me about how you got discovered of being... Andy Noe. Andi know. That is a story that readers should look for in the book, because I haven't really talked about it before, but I will say that it involved somebody that I had written about, both for a transactional anti-farmilitant who has a criminal record and has been, I've identified, I was being at many riots in the Seattle area. And so this individual was really scrutinizing my social media to sort of try to work out and find out exactly where I was and all that. So these are, and it wasn't just this individual, she was connected to a whole network

of these online anti-fi activists who were working trying to identify exactly where I was. And unfortunately, through my own experience, left certain crumbs learned to grow from. So they've become very, very good at identifying outside and it's actually really scary to go and record their rides, which is why you don't see a lot of videos coming out now close up of them by destroying businesses and properties

that's been independent journalism come up with creative ways to record because it's so dangerous. Well, it's not just that they found you. I saw a video on your YouTube of a guy who looks a little bit like you walking down the street and everyone's sticking their fingers up at him. It's so bad that someone that looks like Andy Noe now is an enemy of Antifa. Yeah, so important, I was undercover a lot, but they would never know when I was there or when I was not,

so I had to change my tactics and come up with different ways. And so, they were so overzealous and trying to track me down and find me that I believe on more than five occasions, they misidentifiedadountify people on their side because that person was a male of East Asian heritage, but you know,

just based on sharing the same race as me, they probably was me. Yeah, it's been very embarrassing for them because, you know, they say they're anti-racist and they just, they think that every Asian male... The most pejorative thing in the world. Yeah, every Asian male is Andy No. There's this bit in that video where the guy's stood in front and he's saying, you do realize why you're here, you're being very racist and you're supposed to be anti-fascists. This is the second time that it's happened to me at a march. And this donkey of a girl stood next to the person holding the camera

Goes well, it seems like you're doing it on purpose. I mean like doing what on purpose being Asian like it seems like you're doing it on purpose I couldn't believe it I it's unbelievable. What about the reasons that young people are getting attracted to this? When I was 18 to 24, I wasn't really bothered about fighting for revolutionary capitalists throughout tear down with anarcho communists, like my sort of to go on a night out. Why are people getting attracted to these movements? So broadly, I would divide the anti-femalosis into sort of two kinds. You have people one side of them who are in white colloquial professions, and that's why

I look into the backgrounds of the people who are arrested at these riots because surprisingly or not, many of them are professors, academics, they're journalists, they work in medicine, there's been professors, they've been registered nurses, things that people who are like doing respectable jobs, people have families, people who are attorneys. These are people who have, without exception, been exposed to radical, left-wing ideologies

through academia. And it's just slipped, I mean, it's the whole takeover of the American Academy from, you know, it's not just the social sciences where you see that, you know, you don't just have to be in a queer studies program or a Indigenous studies program. You're seeing these ideologies also in medicine in such engineering. And this is that. So these are like the intellectual, the people who

have privilege of education and wealth and income, who think that they are being important allies in this fight against fascism. And then the other side of the Antifa includes people who are economically unstable. They're vaguents. Many of them, people dealing with mental health issues, people dealing with gender dysphoria. Disproportionately, you'll notice that many of them, I've discovered, have relatively recently transitioned from a gender to another one or back again, or something like that. So these are people who are not

like that. So these are people who are not just vulnerable. And some of the backgrounds actually are very sad. And what are they looking for? Are they looking for belonging? Are they looking for a sense of cohesion? Well, this is the psychological aspect, I think, of why vulnerable people are joining is because they have real grievances, right? Let's say they are unable to find work, they don't want to work, they have no money, they are dealing with all these issues personally and instead of working on improving themselves and the people around them, they're taking it out, they're blaming society at large. So these are people who feel really justified in their destruction, wanton destruction, and looting, and violence, because they feel they've been wrong.

And this is why the theme of revenge repeats itself a lot in their chance and all that. These are people who need help and instead they've been pulled until a violent extremist cult that promises to give them, that gives them community, gives them a new purpose and life. It also makes the villains into the heroes. I think these people probably recognize on one level that they're really hurting their communities when they do this.

They go out to small businesses, but they've been so blinded by an ideology where they believe that. Now, they're doing something virtuous by doing all this. So this is the really dangerous part of Antifa is that it makes people think wickedness is good and so they will stop at nothing to further agenda and that means killing when necessary, stabbing people when needed, beating them on the head and the face, including elderly people, elderly women who have stepped in to charge and to be.

It is that element of the vulnerable, the homeless, the vagrant, the people with mental health issues being recruited essentially into, look, we have the answer. We can make you feel like you're contributing, we can make you feel a part of something. As you said right at the beginning, it's such a trope to say, it's much easier to tear something down than it is to build something up, but it would appear that anti-fer a pretty shit at doing anything that isn't tearing something down,

but anyone can do it. Thankfully, breaking a glass window requires no qualifications and almost no training. I totally hadn't realized it's far too cliche to presume that all of Antifa are upper working class on middle class people from nice areas with good mums and dads who are just sort of luxury smashing their way through the afternoon, but the way that people who perhaps have the intellectual capacity to manipulate these less fortunate people and turn them into the vanguard of these movements, that is really insidious. That makes me feel quite uneasy.

Yes, that's a great analysis. Yes, these people who, the intellectuals, the professors, the academics, those who are in stable backgrounds, are using these vulnerable people as henchmen and goons to carry out an act of criminal violence. And on the rare occasion, that law enforcement and prosecutors do something, it's another drop in the bucket if one of them happens to be sentenced to prison. What's the relationship between Antifa and BLM?

So in 2020, there was a, in my view, a fusion of the two movements. And I saw that most clearly in Antifa black block volunteering as on security, militia, type groups for BLM events. And there was a lot of, there's been a lot of cross pollination since 2016, between these two different ideologies, BLM by the words and statements and self-identification of their co-founders, they identify as Marxists, and the people they generate and celebrate

are revolutionary Marxists, and some of them are fugitives to Cuba, like a Satoshi Akura, who was involved in the murder of a state trooper decades ago. These are the type of people that they want to emulate. Whereas, Antifa, the anarchist side of them is very important to, it's for them,

it's the fusion of anarchy and communism together. So in many ways, there are certain, what you would think would be barriers to them coming together because the the Alang people are not trying to necessarily abolish the state itself. I think they're working to try to replace all the institutions with their people so that they take power with the state. But as of right now, they share a common ideology in their opposition to militant opposition to law enforcement, to the rule of law, to property rights, to the rights in America, the conservative right.

So they have enough common enemies and common goals right now that they are working together. But I think Charles was a particular telling thing that when they, let's say, have some success, and they were forced to be together, that's when these differences came out. And this is where antifers taken an off of intersectional theory as well. So they were deferential to the black mocksess militants

in Chaz just because they happen to be black. How do you mean they were deferential? What were they doing? They were scared to openly challenge some of these war law and type figures who happen to be black because they didn't want to be prestigious racists with their own community. I was going to say are they scared of challenging them because they're black or scared of challenging them because they're a warlord? They're because they're black. Because that would that would undermine the grievance hierarchy that they're supposed to be in favor of.

Correct. Yeah. So you can see their ideologies is very biased nature, very destabilizing, even within the people who are on the part left. So, I have some now, the in unison for the most part and Antipose Chancel are no different from BLM Chancel, the group he has no different, and they have a common enemy in taking down and destroying the founding ideals of America. When you think about some black values, though, I think it doesn't strike massively for me with tearing down institutions. You know, you think about some of the things that were championing young black kids to get into, you know, that you can perform in academics, that you can go into whatever job role that you want you can proceed and win within the structure as it is. If there's no structure left then you can't win at anything. Yeah, which is why you see some black American community activists who have come out against the.

Antifa violence in some cities because they're like what what the hell are you doing? You're attacking businesses are owned by black people. You're hurting our community. You're economically affecting us during a time when COVID has already been so devastating, but these antifa people they see they don't view those Black activists as allies, you know, as people who because they're still willing to work within the system, and they're not willing to abolish it, they're not true allies, so they're not willing to heed some of their pleads

for them to stop being so destructive. Instead, they'll find like these token black anarchists or people of color anarchists and say see our movement is diverse and it's being led by people color. What happens next? Beginning of 2021 at the moment, Biden's inauguration was recent. What's your prediction for the next year? Just a continuation of what we've seen before just routine political violence in the streets and law enforcement not being able to respond and people not being convicted much less prosecuted. What would you do? Where would you go from here if you were

trying to give some advice to policymakers, law officials, government officials, what would be realistic strategies that you could see to stem this tide, or perhaps even reverse it? So, the federal government in the past has dealt with networks of criminal gangs like the mafia and other groups. And so, there are already laws on the books that I think could be applied in helping to break apart some of these networks. That's one thing that can be done.

I think another thing though, and this can't be done without the involvement of liberal users for the left to systematically detach itself from the far left extremist. I'm not sure if they're willing to do that right now because the, in my view, over to the window of what was allowed on the left, it's moved pretty far out there. So, no matter what happens this year, we already have this mainstreaming of this argument that property destruction and looting is in the cause of racial justice. It's just attacking and hurting law enforcement or trying to burn down government property for the cause of racial justice's right. So that claim has to be challenged from the last,

but I don't see what's the direction that they're continuing to move into hard, last, identitarianism. I don't see them coming up to expel the fringes, the fringes voices on their side. By Trump no longer being empowered though, there is one less, very big thing for them to rally around as a unified force. Yes, but that's why in 2020, they weren't really rallying so much in opposition to Trump.

They did that in 2016-17, 18-19, but in 2020 it was rallying against police. And policing is an institution that departments are going to be around regardless of which administration is in power. So that's why you see them rioting still after Biden won. I mean CNN does a story where they were interviewing people, why were you writing in an organization day? And the response is, we're still finding for racial justice because the system itself is racist.

So this is, it's like you said earlier, their claims can never be actually challenged in their mind. They can never be falsified. It's always like, you know, we're fighting for George Floyd. If it's not George Floyd, we're fighting again the institution of law enforcement because that is a form of modern day slavery. It's not that it's capitalism,

capitalism, because that is in a system of like supremacy. So it's always something, you know, and all it takes is for the next viral video of some deadly encounter with law enforcement and a black person for thousands of leftists to take to the street and then for anti-file to exploit those gatherings to turn them into riots and mass-looting events. It's a playbook that they've mastered incredibly well, and long-postment have been neutered in their ability to respond, because any time police use force, justifiably, you see what happens to them. More news stories, more headlines.

Yeah. I can't get over how clever the antifa name is. It's like, it's the precise opposite of everything that they're actually doing in terms of the way that they act. But it immediately frames any press coverage or anything that anyone says with an immediate positive spin in their direction. It's like why wouldn't I want to be anti-fascist? Of course I want to be, I want to be four fascists, fascists sound awful, but what they're actually doing is just hiding behind a very clever name. Like if all it takes

is to name myself not the thing that I am, it doesn't bowed well for sexual predators, does it? But imagine all that Harvey Weinstein needed to do was start a movement called not a rapist and then he'd have been fine. Like, that's not the way it works in any other form of the world, but because the arrows of causation are so muddy and because there is some grievance, there are justifiable problems in the world which need to be fixed. But when this is the problem and this is the response, it often devolves into violence, which is what we've seen.

Yeah, so I'm glad you focus on the name because a lot of people do get hung up on that, people on the left are like politicians, they cannot come out vocally in condemning antifogging, because then it's a press coverage. Correct. Exactly. And such, I can't believe such a juvenile childish, like, such a beautiful, so many people, right? It have made them coward. Like, I don't care what answer to a lot of people, right? It have made them cowards.

Like, I don't care what answer for calls themselves. I just, I look at their ideology, I look at their actions, and I look what they call for. It's, they're at what they do, it acts with terrorism. To me, it's in material what they call themselves. It doesn't matter. And unfortunately for my opposition to them, I've been smeared as a fascist propagandist and have been beaten and have had to go into hiding.

So, but I mean, what's important is that my book hasn't been canceled, so it's still out there, or will be released very soon, and I'm hoping people just become better informed on this threat that we're dealing with right now. Certainly, we'll be unmasked inside Antifa's Radical Plan to destroy democracy. We'll be linked in the show notes below. Where else should people go to check out your stuff? Andy.ngo.com is my website. Perfect.

And thank you. Enjoy the remainder of your time in my lovely country. Thank you. you