Modern Wisdom - #322 - Mohamedou Ould Slahi - Surviving 14 Years In Guantanamo Bay

Episode Date: May 17, 2021

Mohamedou Ould Slahi is the subject of the film The Mauritanian and has been called "the most tortured man in Guantanamo Bay". Mohamedou lived for 14 years in Guantanamo Bay, was subjected to enhanced interrogation techniques, otherwise known as torture, was sexually assaulted by prison officers, was force-fed food, water boarded, subjected to a mock-execution, and spent nearly 20 years away from his home country. Without being charged once. Sponsors: Get over 37% discount on all products site-wide from MyProtein at http://bit.ly/modernwisdom (use code: MODERNWISDOM) Get 20% discount & free shipping on your Lawnmower 3.0 at https://www.manscaped.com/ (use code MODERNWISDOM) Extra Stuff: Watch The Mauritanian - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Mauritanian-Jodie-Foster/dp/B08ZNQRH1H Buy Guantanamo Diary - https://amzn.to/33DmpdO  Buy Ahmed & Zarga - https://amzn.to/3w2fl6I  Get my free Ultimate Life Hacks List to 10x your daily productivity → https://chriswillx.com/lifehacks/ To support me on Patreon (thank you): https://www.patreon.com/modernwisdom - Get in touch. Join the discussion with me and other like minded listeners in the episode comments on the MW YouTube Channel or message me... Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/ModernWisdomPodcast Email: https://www.chriswillx.com/contact Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello you beautiful humans, welcome back to the show. My guest today is Mahamadu Alslaki, and this is an intense one. We're talking about surviving 14 years in Guantanamo Bay. Mahamadu is the subject of the film The Mauritanian, which you might have seen on Amazon Prime at the moment with Benedict Cumberbatch and Jodie Foster, and he's been called the most tortured man in Guantanamo Bay. Mahamadu lived for 14 years in Guantanamo. He was subjected to enhanced interrogation techniques, otherwise known as torture. Sexually assaulted by prison officers

was force-fed food, water-borted, subjected to a mock execution and spent nearly 20 years away from his home country without being charged. This story is so intense. I don't even know, I can't really even put into words how it feels to hear so much suffering from one person. It's very moving and it consists of almost a completely unbroken one hour monologue of Mahamados right in the middle of the episode where he just takes us through the full story. God, I don't even know what to say. I don't even know what to say about this. It is, it's crazy.

How brutal and raw and emotional and sad and insulting and inspiring all at the same time. And it's hard not to feel amazement at how positive and happy and forgiving and peaceful Mahamadu is after he's been through hell. We have so much to learn from someone who is able to deal with this much suffering and come out of it in the way that he has. I really hope that you enjoy it. This is something else entirely. If you are new here or if you're a long time listener, please go and hit the subscribe button. It makes me very happy indeed and it ensures that you will never miss an episode when they are uploaded every Monday, Thursday and Saturday.

So just open your podcast app. Come on. Take your thumbs for a walk. Go and press that subscribe button for me. But now it's time for the wise and very very very wonderful. Mahamadu Al-Slahi. Mahamadu, welcome to the show. Thank you for having me Chris. I'm so happy. What does it feel like to have a movie made about your life? It's really like so like amazing and I, I'm still digesting because this is not in my wildest dream, I did dream,

I would have like a movie about, I mean, how many people have a movie about their lives, you know, I don't know too many people, you know, I don't know anyone in person, in my surrounding. It's just a very big blessing to have your story told on the big screen and to reach this big audience, especially in our world now. And it's not just any movie, right? It's Benedict Cumberbatch and Tamira he and Jodie Foster and then you were contributing to the set design and the production and all sorts this is a level right a list of absolutely and I mean Kevin also Kevin one asker before and yes I was involved. I mean, I didn't push myself on anyone. She just kept calling me and asking me questions and I just kept like answering them. And yeah, like you said, said, also like, I also coach Tahir Rahim on the accent and so on and so forth.

It was a lot of fun and pain at the same time. How accurate would you say the movie is to what happened? I mean what we see in the movie is pretty accurate. Except like Chris, you cannot put on screen like the first 70 days of sleeplessness. You cannot put that on the screen because you just need an actor who stays sleep without sleep for 70 days, consecutive days. And that's very painful.

Take us through your story then. Why has a Mauritanean man had a movie made about his life? So this starts with very innocent phone call. It was like in late 1998 or early 1999, I don't remember, I don't remember, you know, because I only know about the call years later. So my cousin called me and actually it was like very innocent call. He asked me to wire some money to his father who was very sick in Muithinia and then I lived in Germany. It was very easy for me. And of course, I said, yeah,, of course I would do that no problem and

But there was a problem with the call so the call was made from the From a phone that belonged to UBL and my cousin was Friend of UBL. I mean they found years later that he was not involved in the atrocious attack against the United States on 9-11, but still back then this was before 9-11. And everything I did after that was interpreted as a vile act against together in the United States. Everything I said was interpreted in that way that I was quote unquote a bad guy. And I'm been honest to me, I was subject to so many investigations that I didn't know about.

And then all the investigations done in Germany and in Canada, they found out that there was no evidence I did really something. And then I was so scared when our imam, that is our priest in the mosque, when he told me that the German police, some kind of police, like very high level police, you know, like, they came to him and they showed him my patient and he laughed, he said, what do you want to know about this guy? They said, yeah, we have some bad report that he is a he's a bad guy. He was like, he said, no, no, no, I know him in person. He's a very good guy.

He wouldn't hurt a fly. He said, that's what we think too about. There is a country, a country that thinks that is a bad. He told me that, and I just panicked. I said, I cannot stay in this country. And I had already my landed immigrant status in Canada and I moved. I said, when I moved to Canada, fresh start, no one knows me, nothing, I would finish college, find job.

Not for you, I already finished college, but I want to study like PhD. And that's it, that's what I did. And I was, it was so dumb because I didn't know that the intelligence, you know, agencies were so like connected. And Canada was very close to the United States. So going there just proved the point of the United States that I was a bad guy. I was coming to Canada to her deal. And as like had it, one month after my arrival, about one month, a guy decided to cross the

border by the name of Ahmed Rasam and kill innocent people. His name is Ahmed Rasam. And he was going, they said, or they know that he went to the same mosque I did. And this all like pointed toward my person. And then I don't know whether he saw this movie, very old movie called A Man With One Red Shoe, you by a... I see his name again, the guy, you know, cast the way. Tom Hanks.

Yeah, Tom Hanks. So he was, you know, he was like, expect of being a Russian agent. And then everything was he was doing was interpret interpreted that way and it was very funny. So and then Canadian came to my house trying to find out what was the deal. They couldn't find anything but US, this guy is too smart, it doesn't leave any. We need to lure him to a place where there is no law, no rules, no gloves, and then we can get our way with him. Then they called my country, the interior of my country, they told them, how can we get him back to waiting? And then they went to my family, to my mother, they said they should call him back.

Your son is in big trouble, and he needs to come back so we clear his name. She called me and she said she was sick. That was January of 2000. And I just start like, you know, making a arrangement. I bought my ticket, everything. And I had a feeling, you know, I will be very exposed, أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمن أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمن أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أتمنى أن أ I am a person of reason, you know, I believe in science, everything. Even though like I am a religious person at the same time kind of, you know, but

sometime emotion, emotions overwhelm me. And the other day, like several weeks ago, they call me, they said, your sister has COVID-19. And then I said, COVID-19, and then I said, I want to visit her, the doctor said, you cannot visit her. So this is like stupid. And then because it's so dangerous, and then I want, and then I bought some like fruits everything, and I want anyway to visit my sister. And then in midways, I was like crying in my heart saying, this is my sister. What used to be so healthy, healthy my sister so sick and this is so like

so like emotional and Kind of stupid too, but I like willingly risk this very dangerous life Sickness to see my sister and to be beside her and show her life of support you know of course I took precautions, put the mask, everything. And but I'm just showing you that I went, you know, and I know there was a risk, but this was my mother who called me CEC. I was picked up in the car. I was interrogated for five days.

Senegalist said, it is no evidence against this guy. We cannot hold him. So you need, I said, I'm going back to Canada. I know I'm going to be screwed really bad. So I said, I'm going back to Canada. The US said, no, you cannot go back to Canada. And they forced me into a plane. So now Senegal is like not so it was

like more cooperating with them. They said you are not going back to Canada but they took my passport as they put you on a special plane and then sent me to Muir Tain. I was interrogated for about one month in all and then Muir Mauritania came back to me and said, there is no evidence against this guy. So, he, what should we do? Then they said, release him, but he cannot leave the country. So, later they took my passport, my papers, and I said, you know what?

I'm just going to, you know, survive. Because we have, we cling to life so said, you know what? I'm just going to survive because we have, we cling to life so much, you know? Like, no matter like if you get abused, you still want to live, if you get like, I just, you know, we just try to use our resources and I was like highly educated and I found a job. And I said, you know, maybe one day they will find out, I didn't do anything to them, they will let go.

And I was like working long hours, you know, and barely making the ends meet. You know, this was like late 2000, and it was this like, bubble burst I think from IT. And we just didn't do well. The company went down and everything and I went to another company. And 9-11 happened. 9-11 happened.

That was really, really bad time. And I was kidnapped. I was put in a plane by specialty, some of them Jordanians, I know that because they spoke to me. And then some were in masks, two were in masks. I couldn't know who they were. And this was with the collaboration and conspiracy of my own government in violation of the Constitution that no citizen can be overhanded to another country, not to mention innocence. At least there is no evidence against them to cut them some slacks. And I saw death so many times. I was wishing and hoping some custom agent or something bore the plane and see me and I would say I'm guilty, I'm guilty, please arrest me, arrest me.

But no one, no one shows up. I felt death so many times and I wasn't there. I'm afraid of death, but I'm more afraid of dying itself. Believe in an afterlife and the possibility that your afterlife wouldn't be as good, it's a very scary thing. wouldn't be as good. It's a very like scary thing. But dying because I saw my, my, my, the uncle of my mother, I don't know what that, what that called in English, you know, and I saw him dying. You know, his very, very strong man, he was a teacher And I saw him withering away, getting weaker and weaker, and he couldn't take care of his own business.

He was a very proud man. And then he started to smell because he couldn't take shower. And I saw that as a child in this life was so, I will never forget that. So I was like picturing how much torture is going to take for me to pass away to die. And then I stayed in Jordan for eight months, horrific month. I wasn't like beaten only two times, but just living in the fear and the prospect of torture, day in, day out for eight months, it's really very heavy.

And the problem like when they start torturing sessions, I could hear people crying and so up. And then it was just like someone piercing your ears. And then I start to plug my ears with my, you know, with my hands, but I hear louder when I plug my ears. Because the brain creates these sounds, horrific sounds. And I cannot describe to living in pain how painful it is. And there is no end, and there is no like, I remember the day I was taken, before I was put in the place. And I just came back from work, I was doing installation in the presidency out of all places.

They want to revamp their network, and they took our company. So I was the engineer who was in charge. I came back, it was Ramadan. Ramadan meaning fasting month. And I came back 4 p.m. I think it was Ramadan, Ramadan meaning fasting, month. And I came back 4pm, I think it was around 4pm. Only my mother was home, like my sister's brothers, only she and me came, you know, in plain clothes.

Said, do you need to come with us? She told me, Muhammadouin whisper, they take you know why I said no, it's because of the TV you watch TV. She doesn't want me to be involved in politics or discussion or anything. And then they took me. I said no,, no, it's going to be alright. I'm coming back. Then they took me and then I was watching her at the rear view mirror as she disappeared getting smaller and smaller. And I never forget her holding the prohibits, frantically praying until I turned right. I never saw my mother again, ever.

And the thing that I never realized, I never appreciated the pain she was going through. Because I never had a son, I only had son like two years ago, Ahmed. And I cannot even imagine someone taking Ahmed away from me and taking him away with no reason like. This is not like Canada or like a western country, a free country where the police has to show cause. Meaning they said, we are taking your son because of one, two, three, four. This is painful still, but one can understand that you are in a society and the society has roles and you have to respect the roles if you want to live in the society.

But nothing like that. Same thing in Jordan, I was not allowed to see that it costs, was not allowed to call my embassy, nothing. I was under the total mercy of people who worked in the darkness, total darkness, away from podcasts, away from internet, away from TV, everything. Democracy dies in darkness. So after that, they came to me one day. So, after that, they came to me one day, then one of the guards threw a black trash bag, one of the heavy duty, through the bean hole.

The bean hole is present parlance for a very small window, like very small windows where you can barely fit your hand, where they give you food and they close and communicate with you with the guards. Then they throw the trash bag inside my sentence and say, you going home? Chris, I cannot describe to you my feeling. I just start crying uncontrollably, you know, just like a child. I was in a hole in a pit for eight months. Of course, I lost count because later on, I knew that I didn't know the days and the thing is though I tried to keep them and I lost like 10 days in all and I don't know where they went and because sometimes I didn't

know days and nights because I was putting the cell up underground and I was saying now what came to me I was saying I was a pure person I was a good person in the prison because there was no opportunity to do bad things in the prison like bad thing I mean like bad mouth, making like unsavory comments, criticizing your mother's food and so on and so forth. And I was like, I felt I was close to God. You know, and prison is like death. But this is like another life. But now I'm going back to life, how would I do in life? Would I be a still good person in every life? And then I came and then I went to the bathroom, but I didn't want to tell them I went to the bathroom because I didn't want them to change their minds.

So I didn't want to be the bathroom. I said, let's go and now they put me in a plane to Mauritania and I will just take go to the bathroom and do whatever I want to do. I'm not going to screw this up. I came there, they took me. All blind folded and you cannot see anything. Then they took off the blind form. They started giving me back my belonging, my driver license, some money I had, you know, and ID card stuff like that. And they told me to sign money because they told me to come to an end, I was shaking life, I couldn't control my shaking. And then I took the pen and sign, I didn't count anything, I just said whatever, I agree

whatever, because I'm going home, I don't care about anything. Then I saw the date 31st of July, 2002. So that's what it hit me that I had another date in my head. And no, I saw 20th, but in my head was 31st. And then I knew I wasn't really in my right state of mind. And then they took me and they laid me on like a stretcher. And then they pushed me into a... some kind of track because I could feel the moving. And then I heard the, after I don't know maybe

30 minutes or so, I heard the roaring of engines. I know I was in airport, in some kind of airport. And I was just, I was almost exploding because I need to go to the bathroom really bad, so bad. And I was like, it's so painful when you need to go to the music, you know, to just to, to dumb down my hearing, so I don't hear them talking, conversing. And I love the music really, it was Abdul Halim Havim, a very legendary Egyptian singer. And it felt like I'm back to life. I'm back to life. And then it took a long time.

I don't know, at least one hour, at least, if not hours. I don't remember about very long time. And then someone started to touch me. And then, you know know like, you know, manhandle me like touching me everywhere and then they start to cut open my clothes with scissors. Strip me naked completely except for my blindfold and my ear plugs. He starts to put me in diapers. And then it dawned on me that I was not going home.

I was going to prison. Very bad prison life. And it came back to me, those movies and those documentaries I watch in Germany about Arraf American prisons And I was telling myself I'm not going back. This is it. This is like I'm going to die in a prison the US I'm going to be forgotten. You know I'm from Africa. This is bad for I am an Arab in Europe, which is very bad, and I'm a Muslim. These strikes I could count in my head. And I wouldn't be treated fairly.

And I was aware of the anger too, of the United States. And I just was like praying that my family doesn't see me ever on TV, paraded in chains, because that would hurt them so badly. And then I took it upon myself from that moment on, if for some like miracle, if I go back to life, I will be a good person. إذا أريد أن أذهب إلى حال أرى أن أكون أخذ أرى أكثر لأنني أرى أن أرى ماذا أرى أنني أرى لأنني أرى أنني أرى أنني أرى وأنني أرى أنني أرى أنني أرى أنني أرى أنني أرى أنني أرى أنني أرى أنني أرى أنني أرى أنني أرى أنني أرى أنني أرى أنني أرى أنني أرى أنني أرى أنني أرى أنني أرى أنني أرى أنني أرى أنني أرى أنني أرى أنني أرى أنني أرى أنني أرى أنني أرى أنني أرى أنني أرى أنني أرى أنني أرى أنني أرى أنني أرى أنني أرى أنني أرى أنني أرى أنني أرى أنني أرى أنني أرى أنني أرى أنني أرى أنني أرى أنني أرى أنني أرى أنني أرى أنني أرى أنني أرى أنني أرى أنني أرى أنني أرى أنني أرى أنني أرى أنني أرى أنني أرى أنني أرى أنني أرى أنني أرى أنني أرى أنني أرى أنني أرى أنني أرى أنني أرى أنني أرى أنني أرى أنني أرى أنني أرى أنني أر أنني أرى أنني أرى أنني أرى أنني أرى أنني أرى أنني أرى أنني أرى أنني أرى أنني أرى Why did I criticize my mother? I didn't like the food.

Why did I make this comment? Why wasn't I nice? Why was I courteous to people enough? And I took it upon myself to be nice. Actually, I never regret not having money. I never regret not having this very hard chick. I never get any of that. I never get not having a very hard chick. I never get any of that. I never get not having a house, none of that.

It didn't matter to me. What mattered to me? Why wasn't I nice? Because nice, you don't need money to be nice. You don't need wealth, you don't need anything, you don't need a lock, you don't need a background to be nice. You just be nice, you know. And a lot of people like ask me like, oh, you said you forgave people, everything, this

is a bunch of BS because I wouldn't forgave people, but I would say you didn't have my life because to me, I know what matters. And I'm doing myself a favor. You don't know how much favor I'm doing myself and how like selfish I am. You don't know how selfish I am. I'm very much serving my own interest when I say I forgive people, you know, because I want to be a nice person. And to be honest to you, you know, like Christ, you know, you know, I like Tony Robbins, you know, I like his speech as a lot.

And so motivational speaker from the youth. I read his book, everything. And some of the good thing he said that stuck with me, that your biography does not dictate your future, you know. Right. You know, you can always have a future you want. And this is all like easy as it's done, you know. It's very easy like for you and me to say,

I want to be an iceberg and I will be an iceberg. It's very easy like for you and me to say, I want to be a nice person and I will be a nice person. It's not easy because circumstances like keep pushing your button all the time. And I've always to center yourself, come back, say, how can I be nice without hurting myself? I've been nice without hurting myself, you know, because that's like the threshold. And so they put me in this diaper, they took me out, and they put me in clothes after that. They took me out, they stretched me on a stretch in a plane. The plane started to move, took off, you know, that by your ears when they crack. Pop. I was, you know, just like feeling so bad for myself. You know, why this is happening? I just, I don't know what was going through my head, but I want to be so bad. And the diaper are for being, but I couldn't be in diapers. are for being but I couldn't be in divers. I couldn't, this is not, like, you know, I say something, I say,

subconscious bitch, you know, because with the way we were raised, you know, has so much bearing and it's almost like a burden on us. You know, I always, always like, you know, the way I will raise, it's not, you have always to be very private when you want to be. You have to be away from people, you have to be in certain places to do that. You know, and now I know this does not work because I have to be, but I couldn't. The plane kept flying, flying, flying, flying, flying, flying, you know. And they kept like, to make it work, they kept like, you know, like sprinkling somehow water

in my mouth because they want to keep me hydrated. Now this is like kidnapping team, they know what they were doing. I was not their first client, so. And they were not rough with me. They did not beat me. They did not treat me rough. If the guy was like giving me water, he was just like tapping like nicely on my shoulder. Like, first time like I, I feel that someone is feeling my pain somehow, but there is no talking. And I'm...

there is something in me, you know, and I say, this shared this with you, Chris, that, just don't own me, that I'm very easily subdued, like, a normal person would say, guys, I need to pee, but I never said that. You know, I was like mesmerized in this world of silence and darkness. You know, I couldn't see anything to stutter darkness and no one was talking. And then I was completely integrated in this like very weird world. And I accepted it to my own detriment.

And then I was just dying. And then, because, you know, when you start like treating people in this way, like, this is not even, didn't start torture, but, we are very vulnerable. I'm saying this because,

Duton, I learned that two detainees died, two I know of died, on record. And so, I think after five hours, or six hours, I don't know, it's just in my head. Plain start to lose altitude, you know, I could, I could feel that.

My whole body could feel that. Then it touched down. And then I was taking it and I was put in a chopper. I know that because I heard it was so loud and the way, you know, it must be a chopper. So there was no other way. And then they put me in a truck. Truck was good because they sat me. And then two people pushed against me and I fell the warmth of a human being in a very long time, eight months, the first time I fell in the warmth of a human being. And I was so cold. And then they spoke a language I never heard.

I started hearing them because they spoke very loudly. This was like some of the Afghani languages that I was not familiar with. And then I thought about it was the Philippines because I don't know just in my head. I said, I know there were like military base in the Philippines. I was thinking that I was going to land in Germany and I'm Stein and then taken. But this was not German language because I understand German obviously because I studied in Germany. So and then I said this is Philippine. So and then they They set me on my knees. And then for the first time, in a long time, I peed like a champion.

Because I felt alone. And when I peed, you know, I was a free man. I didn't care about where I was. I didn't care what happened to me. Just the relief of the pain, that's just like giving birth, you know, after a very long labor. And they start like to strip me naked,

and then they took the blindfold. You know, like your instinct when they strip me naked, and then they took the blindfold. You know, like your instinct when they strip you naked, you always put your hands on your private parts automatically. And then they start to... The weird thing that I saw, they come to me and then they put my hair. Later I understand this for DNA testing. And they start interrogation, put me back in the blindfold,

and then they start interrogation, like destroying chairs beside me very loud you know just like in movies you know but they didn't beat me they just like were asking me stupid question because they were not brief properly who I was and where I came from that I think the CIA plays just dropped me. And then they were like a lot of different agencies and private contractors. And everyone, like everyone wants a piece of you, everyone wants to be the guy who is like cracking the bad terrorists,

quote unquote. And because they were asking about Bill Adel where he was and where Mullah Umar, Mullah Umar is the last president of Afghanistan, Afghanistan. And I didn't know there was a war. I didn't know they talk over Kabul. I didn't know none of that, but their question just gave me information after information, just like watching the BBC. So where did they go? Because they thought I was picked up from the battlefield, that's the, they must have

thought that. I was saying, what? I don't know, I swear, I don't know. It's just very broken, no resistance, nothing. Did they took me to this room? Very alone, live. With carpet, one room, and then they took it to another room and I

I saw I don't know how but I saw the the feet of Editing moving and I was oh my god this guy being tortured I'm sure you know you know just like crazy stuff coming to my head and then there was no bathroom in the cell so I peed on the floor everything on the floor So, I peed on the floor, everything on the floor. And they took me for interrogation. Again, must have been nigh. You know, those like people is makeshift prison in bagram.

They don't know, make shift. You know, but Americans like, they always like wherever they go, they build this little America right away. So I could hear like rock and roll music. You know, people talking very loud. You know, and eating all the time, all the time, there is no like no break, you know, some kind of like energy bars, you know, or drinking, there is no pause, you know, not like sitting there, okay, let's talk about something, you know, we have to eat something,

and that's the first thing you like that came to eat something. And that's the first thing you'd like that came to my mind. And I was very curious about, and I hear a lot about Americans. I see a lot about Americans on TV or movies. But I never really met Americans. This was like my life. So it sat me there. There was this very young Arabic translator, you know, he's native born American.

You know, I could tell from the accent he is not a native Arab speaker, obviously. And then he asked me what languages do you speak? It's a standard question because they want to organize their resources. I said, and then I said, like, German, French at all. Everybody was what? I said, yeah, I see German. This is first lie. And then they call the guy CIA guy by the name of Misha Eil, German America.

Then he started speaking German, and I responded him, and he told me, but it's just an eye. So my English was not good enough to carry on interrogation, it was very basic, yes, no, and so on. And then he told me, one thing I never forget, he looked at me and said, Freight, Macht, Freight, nine, Varheit, Macht, Freight, Varheit, Macht, Freight, meaning the truth will set you free. When he said that, I had this picture he called in my head, Arbite mached fry, work will set you free. And I never forget this sign because I saw it on German documentaries everything over and over and over and over and I knew the people

for whom the sign was meant did not go free and never they they died actually and that was like a very bad own form. I didn't say anything, they gave me your password. That's the friendliest thing that they could tell you. They come, take your chris to the police, said, you are on Instagram, you are on YouTube. I need your password. I need to see everything you have. It would be like, what? Who are you? And then I told him, you know, to be honest, I know I will end up giving him my password. I know there is no way around it. And I also as a, as a 90 person, I also

know they have way to see everything without me giving them my password. Back then I was Yahoo! He email you know. And I said, I start to get you know to get him on my side, I said, you know this is the you know get the law, this is my pride. He said, look, I give you two options either you give it to me or I take it by force. And I said, okay, then I wrote him my password. You know, my password is very easy. First name of my wife, far out there, her birthday. Very easy.

And I never had like strong password anything because there was nothing interesting in my email or anything. You know, but it's so painful, you know, to see your like privacy violated, you know, and there is nothing you can do. This is like mundane to a lot of people, but to me it's not mundane that someone like tells you this, this is like just if someone tells you Christ take off your clothes and they would say no, I won't and then they force to take off your clothes because this is your privacy, this is your home, this is the door

clothes. But anyway then he start explaining to me the process. And he told me one thing, he said, you are guilty, even if you are not guilty, because there is no way out of this. So make peace, he said, no, with that fact. And he also told me that I was going to be taken to Guantarame, which I didn't know. So told me that I was going to be taken to Guantanamo Bay, which I didn't know. And he explained to me, when I was so happy, because this is like he said, it's under American

control. And I want to be under American control, because I grew up when I was young, I was to watch law and order and married with children. So Americans are funny and American respect the role of law. So I was not afraid that he would find out anything against it because I didn't do anything to them. And they took me to Guantanamo Bay and like first about 9 ma, it was like interrogation, it was very painful like but I was not heavily torched or anything but they decided I was really I really need to

talk to them they thought to confess to something. They put me on this like enhanced intelligence technique, a euphemism for torture. And starting from May of 2003, I was officially rolled in the program. And it was really painful. No sleeping, you know. And interrogation 24-7, sexual assault on three occasions, at least I don't know. I was beating until I broke my ribs. I was beating until I broke my ribs. This all on record. And my gold blood was destroyed. Later on they had to take me to the hospital and remove it. And I was just a mess.

I was just a mess. But Chris when they see this all, they didn't like quote unquote break. One day they came to me before the boat ride, infamous boat ride, where they took me in a boat and drowned me and beat me, all kind of beating. They came to me and said, we are going to arrest your mother, put her in men only prison, and there is nothing we can do if she gets assaulted then. And then I lost it, I said, I was like, what if I want, I will do.

And there is no limit, no limit to my, to what I would confess. And then they, like, let's say you would make an attack against Sian Tao because they want to make it logical with the time because I was in Canada. And I never heard of Sian Tao about the way, with all due respect. And I never been too torrent to my life. I said, yes. Then I started writing and they said, you need to write and I wrote it. I put the names of my friends as my accomplices.

They said, you need to sign it. And I did sign it. And this was like so, like weird, because they want to put me on death, put me to death. They need very solid like confession because I was the first candidate for death penalty. And the guy came back to me, start like first sergeant, first-large, first-large, shallow. He came to me, he said, you know you are a good guy because you confess everything. You can negotiate like 30 years and so. And I was like, listen, I mean, I mean, what world, I was thinking what world does he live

in, you know? And like he was like giving me the good news, the good news to him is me staying in prison for 30 years, instead of being put to death. And I was just like mechanically just sitting with my ideas, thank you so much, thank you. And he was saying how in America, they respect people who confess everything and I was like, yes, yes, yes, yes. And then after all these biggest challenge, this is the irony that my confession was very big challenge to the intelligence community because it contradicted like everything they know. They know I didn't do anything. They just

wanted me there to give them information about my cousin, about people I know, about people who go to the mosque, et cetera. As the interviewer thought I did like, I planned to attack like, at least the CIA knows that I didn't do that. And the FBI, he just, the guy was lead investigating a million on plot. He just told Canadian press, La Press the other day.

He said he went in person to go to Anum Bay and told them, Muhammad does nothing to do with a millionium plot. You can do something else because I know this case because I'm interrogating the guy, the main guy. They have this obsession, you know, so they know but the problem they don't exchange information. So the person who was like interrogating me Richard Zouli, a cop from Chicago, he was a private contractor, he was working, he was a private contractor hired by the DOD, that is the Department of Defense, like the military.

You know, and he just wanted results. He turned out he was a very bad cop indeed because he put innocent people behind bars, some of whom 20 years turned out to be innocent. So that's his magic that he could break up like innocent people and make them confess something they didn't do and put them in prison. So he was not important to the CIA to share with him information or the FBI. And I was not important to the CIA or the FBI to save me and say, hey, this is innocent guy, what you do? So, it was not important to them.

So, and then they came back to him, they said, this is BS, you know, I said, he didn't do this. And he almost went crazy. And he came back to me and said, they want you to make like, lie detected tests. And I was so scared because I know how it works. I said, but when I do it, the confession will go أعرف أنه حقاً لأنه أعرف أنه حقاً لكن عندما أعرف أنه حقاً

فقط سأتعلم أنه حقاً لأنه لا أعرف أنه حقاً وإذا كانت أنه حقاً فهذا كانت حقاً لكنه حقاً فهذا أعرف أنه حقاً فهذا أعرف أنه حقاً حقاً

وإذا كانت أنه حقاً فهذا أعرف أنه حقاً حقاً أعرف أنه حقاً And then I said, okay, they put me on this life. Like they take it and I cleared myself 100% and I passed. I said, I didn't do anything, I never done anything, I never thought about doing anything. And this life put a hold on my case like forever. So they never took me out of torture, but they start life tapering you. I was going to ask how they slowed down from the enhanced interrogation back into back into normal life. Before we go on a

little bit further, I just want to go back to the sleep deprivation. How do they deprive you of sleep during that 70 day enhanced interrogation period? the day enhanced interrogation period. Okay. So they have four shifts, three shifts of interrogation, and they just take you. When the next shift, when this shift is done, they start to know, shift, they take you out. And if you go back to yourself, the time you are in yourself they keep banging on your door okay the first 70 days was like that did not stop I after that I bought I lost consciousness and I don't know what happened in that

period like two or three weeks I don't know anything, but they came back to sleep the probation, different technique. They call it water diet. They give me water every like about two hours or one hour. They forced me to drink like a three-quarter of a liter, and then I keep just going to the bathroom all the time, all the time, no sleep. And I ask Yoda one time, why don't they just like keep me awake standing, said no, it's more painful with water because you feel like we are not, we are not doing things, but you just cannot sleep, you know, because giving you water is a good thing. So they make you the architect of your own torture?

Correct, correct. And he is right. It's so painful, like, every time you close your eyes, you want to go to the bathroom. And I developed a very, very, like, this habit, very painful habit, that, even though there is no water, I keep waking up during night, go to the bathroom, sitting. Sometimes no water, nothing. I don't want to be but I'm just sitting there. This took me many years, you know, in prison, to get somehow under control. And now, when I get depressed, it comes back to me right away, that I want to go to the bathroom, the first reaction. I want to go to the bathroom. And, yeah, feel free to interrupt it because I'm going on with you. No, monologue, I mean.

Lai keo. You live in a different world, like a dimension. You are just waiting to die, kind of. I took sleep for granted light before. And now after that I understand that when people in the pain they cannot sleep, I 100% understand how painful it is. We just need to sleep, we just need to take a break from like, working. And but we just like, I was just like almost like an animal, I didn't even think about it, I just got to sleep, that's it. I have like a magazine near my bed or something to read, you know, that put me to sleep.

Then I just go to sleep and then wake up in the morning fresh and so happy. But now I'm very conscious. I said, now I'm going to sleep. This is really good. When I'm not depressed, I feel so good about it. Like the, my favorite place in the house, my bed. You know, that's why I insist to have a TV in my bed room. And this is a big fight with my wife, because she doesn't want TV. But when she's not around, I put back the TV. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha by anyone. You're not going to apologize. The cells were kept really cold as well. This was another method to try and break spirit. Yes, absolutely. I mean, there are like, I

are technique like I didn't say, you know, a Chris, American people are not like that. American people are good people. They are very generous people, you know, they are very, you know, they have a lot of empathy and they love people, they love life, they love to live. You know, we just, we just, there is something I don't have any answer to. Why do like good people engage in very bad behavior, you know, to get along and to go along with other people, you know, to get along and to go along with other people. You know, this is like human, like, unfortunate is our nature, whether you are Christian, Muslims, you know, Atheists,

Buddhists or whatever. We know that happens to all people. They always engage in horrific At least by omission or not like reporting, you know, and go alone. And so, they were talking about the cauldron. The cauldron is really very painful because I have only like the prison uniform and overall No, two pieces. Sorry two pieces and there is nothing under them nothing life and then they put me in this cold room They crank up the AC that they are there and I just keep shaking and I talk to Raniqa because I always try to negotiate my way out of torture. I tell them, you are doing such bad thing to me, I didn't do anything. And then I told Raniqa, you're killing me.

Who's sorry, who's Raniqa? Raniqa is a Navy lieutenant who was a part of the team and she was like the person who was like the nicest in a way because she smiled sometimes. And so I give you a very good wisdom. If a girl smiles, she's not going to give you her number necessarily. So she just smiled and I thought this is a good person. Like I said, you are killing me, I'm dying. She said, no, you are not going to die because we have doctors who have everything.

She was very wrong because you know, you know, you know, Rahman Gul, Rahman Gul died in the cold room. رحمان قول رحمان قول دائد في قول دروم و و دالي وار دائد في بيدي يتوقعه only 24 عوار

و he died و لأنه يوم بي و يتوقعه لسيئ من نفس الوضع لسيئ من نفس الوضع Because we are human beings, we are very, you know, it takes so much to save one's life, but so little to take out a lot. And this is like us. Was that lieutenant, the person who cried when someone came in and took you out of the interrogation room?

There's a scene in the movie where one of the interrogators who I think is a female, another group come in and take you away and this is for the mock execution which I think I want you to get into, is that the lady, the one that smiled at you? No, that was Mary. She was also, you know, I mean, she, sheired in torture, especially like sexual assault, but she was always confused and she was not sure she was doing the right thing because she kept like talking to me said, you know what?

We don't give up, because this is like, we don't care if the world doesn't like us. And then I know this is not healthy for us, but we don't it anyway. So she was very like conflicted, you know, because as if she was like trying to convince herself, she's doing the right thing. And she came back to me after this episode, like you said, of Mark execution and waterboarding. It's, she came to me, first they stopped her because that was a very bad behaviour, like to them,

like showing like any kind of compassion. Compassion was a red line, but they brought her, I don't know how many months, but they brought her back and she said she was so happy that I cleared my name that I she was really happy you know and she watched with me a movie called Black Hawk Down she brought you know just another movie shown American greatness and bravery and just the right kind of movies. And I was not actually watching the movie. I was watching the reaction, her reactions to the movie and that of the guards.

I just want to know how this propaganda like, He just want to know how this propaganda like, what's in people, you know, like, you know, a guy told me last night I was invited to a star, an old person, a wise person from this country, he told me, I need a mirror to see my face. Because my face is so close to me, I cannot see it without stepping back. And, you know, American people have a lot to be proud of. American people are very inventive. They are the most powerful country in the world and they never lost a war in the last like I don't know since the civil war. And yes, it's very hard to see themselves as like just regular human being and be down to earth everything, you know, I'm a moritaine and in moritaine

I would think we are the best country in the world and you say moritaine and no one knows what moritaine is Let alone Americans, so and I was watching like Black Hawk down, Black Hawk down is about American soldiers in Somalia. And they just, they showed that they were fighting alone without anyone helping them, people stabbing them in the back. But the quiz that popped to my head, what are you doing in Somalia? This is very far from home. So that, but I couldn't say anything, I couldn't criticize, I just was watching and Mary

was telling me, look, look those brief people. And so, you know, those, look those brief people. And so those marine. And everything is nice. The movie was the cinematography was good. And American people look very handsome, very well dressed. And the Pakistani guy who wouldn't give them assistance, the bad guy, he didn't look good. He had a very bad accent. He couldn't even speak English. You know, this is all like, you know, going, you know, on

the side of American people, you know, the good people, you know, the beautiful people, you know, the world-dressed people, the people who go everywhere to save freedom. Yeah, that's why I was watching Stuff Sergeant Mary and not the movie. Just seeing if the hypocrisy was registering on her face at any point. You said that. I'm not going with that. But that's fine because I'm British,

so I can say whatever I want. Okay, you are the smart guy. Correct. I know that. I heard that some of the guards also suffered from PTSD after they'd worked at Guantanamo Bay. And obviously we're seeing the level of conflict here, some of the interrogators, some of the people

that were looking after you, even during the process, they're being conflicted about their own motivations, about why they're doing what they're doing, whether they should be doing it. And that doesn't surprise me. I remember thinking afterwards, would I be able to, would I be able to willfully do something which after the event would give me PTSD. But then I realized that's what war is. Soldiers willfully go to war. There's sometimes don't realize what they're doing in the heat of the battle. And then afterwards that's when they they pay for it. And that's when the PTSD comes. And I can kind of see how that would occur with the guards, but I can also see how they would be conflicted as well. Absolutely, you know, I remember this young man

by the name of Jedi, his name is Jedi. He came to me, you know, and he was a good guy and aside from participating in tortuous and so and he gave me cookies, you know, no, no, not cookies, muffin, muffin. You know, I remember this blueberry muffin, it's my favorite. And he smuggled them to me. And he just comes to me and then he just put them up in the binhole and put them and go away. Then I take them and I ate them and then he started, it was forbidden to talk to me. You know, and then he came to me when there was no one around,

for one he's from, always two guards, like watching me all the time. All the time, light doesn't go all the time, all the time. Light doesn't go out, so all the time. And I just want your audience to appreciate life, to appreciate like having a bedroom and being able to put off the light. And no one is watching them. They go to the bathroom, no one is watching them. They change their clothes, no one is watching them. Everything I did was watched and recorded for the future.

So, Americans could take out now and put it on TV, national TV. So, and just thinking about it makes me appreciate life and appreciate privacy. And he came to me one day, I told him, Jidha, I want to ask you a question, I said, here, I said, why did you, force me, why did you prevent you from praying by force? And you know this is like, you know, you are a Christian and so on. He said, he told me, yeah, I know I'm going to hell, but what do you want me to do? I was like, but you are in a free country. You know, you're a country, you are a free man like.

I understand if you're dictatorship, but country, you know, you're country, you are a free man like, I understand if you're dictated, you want, he said, yeah, but if I don't do this job, they give me a shitty job. You know, Jesus, take me and this is a good job, like, I don't know why it is good, but I think it pays more. I believe. And then we end up after my release, he ended up contacting me. He's the one who initiated contact. All of the guards and shit contacts. I never contacted anyone because I don't want them to think I'm trying to locate them or anything. So all of the gods.

And like you said, all of them were very like they showed contrition, and they want to apologize to me. And they really hurting a lot, you know, because it's just not normal that you inflict pain on other people unless you are very sick and then you think you're going to be free after that. I don't think unless you are psychopath, you are going to suffer pain. The entry price to hell isn't that high if all it is is the difference between $15 an hour and $30 an hour. That's quite a cheap entry price to get yourself into hell. Committed to eternal domination for the sake of $15 an hour.

I know, I know, you know, it's amazing. But unfortunately, like I said, this is cross-cultural phenomenon that we as a human being, and I know your show concentrated on the big picture, you know, how, and when we don't learn from each other, we cannot grow, you know. And one of the good things, one of the very big lessons, you know, I was very like local in my thinking, you know, I'm going to be very upfront with you. So I thought, okay, I'm like, look at us, our culture, Muslim, we are the best people, I'm in Africa, Arab, African, best people. And I always looked at the interest of Maslim and Arab.

But when I went to this painful experience, the vast majority of people who stood by me, who showed compassion, are not Muslims. They are Christian, they are Jewish people, and they are none with no denomination at all. And then I thought, okay, I need to look at us as human beings instead of force-fitting people in very narrow identity. I don't believe that if you say a Muslim,

this is an identity that is like enough description, but a Muslim could be a man, could be a woman, could be a liberal, could be a conservative, could be black, could be white, could be feminist, could be non-feminist, could be a European, could be non-European, African, could be like... and so on and so forth. I mean so on and so forth. And when you start like counting the things that we share you and I as human beings, even though we grow up in a very different circumstances, it's... we will find so many identities that we share

that could prevent conflict and promote understanding and peace. After the enhanced interrogations finished and the results of the lie detector test came through, it turns out that they know, now the US government know that you're not guilty, you're held for a further nine years, without charge, you go through this entire litigation process, you release your book, and then you eventually get out. So not only have you been through before Guantanamo,

all of this horrible treatment at the hand of Jordanians and you're in Cyprus and all of this other stuff, you go through Guantanamo, you go through the enhanced interrogation, then that's dragged out for nearly another decade. Then you finally get released. How is it that you don't have resentment or hatred towards that situation?

You know, Chris, I saw this many times, I faced this many times. And the only regret, the only thing I regretted when I was about to die was not being nice. You know, that being nice, that's the only thing I regretted. I didn't regret not having money, I didn't regret not being in a bad ass, not having money, not marrying this very hard girl. The only thing I regretted, not being nice, and I took it upon myself to be as nice as possible. To be able to make a difference. Because that would make me happy and that because everybody will die, I mean one day.

And I want to go in peace and as a happy person, I don't want to have regrets when I'm on my deathbed. And today, I met you. And so I want you to have good memory about me. That's all I want. And I don't want fake memories. I want you to have good memory said, I can only think good thing about this guy. ونعرف أن أفضل مموريس أريد أن أفضل أن أفضل مموريس أمكن أن أفضل أن أفضل أن أفضل أن أفضل أن أفضل أن أفضل أن أفضل أن أفضل أن أفضل أن أفضل أن أفضل أن أفضل أن أفضل أن أفضل أن أفضل أن أفضل أن أفضل أن أفضل أن أفضل أن أفضل أن أفضل أن أفضل أن أفضل أن أفضل أن أفضل أن أفضل أن أفضل أن أفضل أن أفضل أن أفضل أن أفضل أن أفضل أن أفضل أن أفضل أن أفضل أن أفضل أن أفضل أن أفضل أن أفضل أن أفضل أن أفضل أن أفضل أن أفضل أن أفضل أن أفضل أن أفضل أن أفضل أن أفضل أن أفضل أن أفضل أن أفضل أن أفضل أن أفضل أن أفضل أن أفضل أن أفضل أن أفضل أن أفضل أن أفضل أن أفضل أن أفضل أن أفضل أن أفضل أن أفضل أن أفضل أن أفضل أن أفضل أن أفضل أن أفضل أن أفضل أن أفضل أن أفضل أن أفل أن أفل أن أفل أن أفل أن أفل أن أفضل أن أفضل أن أفل أن أفضل أن أفضل أن أ who go to heaven. That's a saying, people decide who go to heaven, because their testimony are the one that takes you to heaven. And I want good testimony, not fake, not fake, like niceness, no. I want to be nice because I give you an example. People who hurt me the most, one of the poor the most is Richard Zooli,

a lieutenant from Chicago. Very known, look him up, you find him. He is an old man today, very angry man. I don't want him to suffer because nothing good is going to come out of him suffering at all. I want to get any money, I want to get any status, I don't get any power when he gets when he suffers. And I hate to see people suffering anyway. And you know, this girl, I think she is Canadian Labanese and she said, I forgive you, not because you deserve forgiveness or you ask for forgiveness, but because I want to live in peace. And it's very hard to find forgiveness for someone who hurt you so badly.

And this is for everyone. I mean, look in your life, look in your friends life, a very bad breakup, someone who betrayed your trust. This is very hard to forgive, you know? But when you come to turn, you know, with that. And when you decide to forgive, it's just so rewarding wording, because I mean people called me and people, you know, are like ask me as if I was a doctor because they want me to help them heal. And this makes me really feel very good. And I tell you another thing,

which is a little bit evil side of me. So there was this interrogator. She was so obsessed with my case. No. The guard called her Tans of Fun because she was on the heavier side of the scale. And she was so obsessed like with my case. And she always believed I'm a bad guy. And then this journalist asked me to talk to her. I said no problem. And then she talks to me and then she said, I just want you to answer one of my questions.

I said no. I don't have to answer any of my question. I said, no, I don't have to answer any of your question. This is not an interrogation room. He said, but yeah, you are, then you are not innocent. I said, I'm not claiming anything. I don't have to prove anything to you. So, and her like, you know, Her like, you know, agitation really gives me some like satisfaction because because she couldn't come with peace and I just want to be friend with her and I want to move on but she wouldn't

She wouldn't butch after so many years in Guantaro Bay. She wouldn't move move forward. And I found out either way, I will be happy. If you want to open your heart and be my friend, I will be your friend. If you want to start in Guantanamo Bay, it's fine with me too, because like the journalist was saying, why don't you answer that? I said, because I don't want to. I want to be in charge of when to give an answer and not to give an answer.

And she's her. I told her, it's fine to think I'm not a good guy. But as long as you don't torture me, that's fine with me. And today you are not going to torture me because we are 5,000 miles apart, kilometers, about 3,000 miles. And it felt good, honestly. Well you're exercising your freedom. After all that time where you didn't have your freedoms, you weren't free to choose your own actions and your own agency. And you are, I think even the most virtuous amongst us is still at the mercy of our biology, right? We can't get rid of the desire for a little

bit of retribution, even if it's a little snipe here and there, you know, a verbal game, whatever it might be. I have a friend who said, thinking about what you were talking about there, about the fact that your captors, some of them couldn't release. They couldn't relinquish their anger and their distaste. And he says that anger is like a virus. So it's been passed from person to person. Someone was angry and then they've displaced that anger onto somebody else and they've displaced that anger onto somebody else and they've displaced that anger onto somebody else.

And it takes an incredibly strong person to be a bookend, you know, to be the end of a bracket, to stop that, and to say, I don't know who you got it from and I don't know who gave it to you and I don't know who gave it to them, but I'm not going to decide to pass it on. I'm going to be the end of this anger. So beautiful, Chris. So beautiful. I learned a very good lesson today. This is something I will not forget. And this is so helpful to know it consciously. You know that you need to stop it, right there,

because it's your responsibility, like paying it forward, kind of. This is beautiful, honestly. Tell me about your situation now. My situation. So, I'm trying to pick up the pieces. I'm trying to be happy. I'm trying to help as many people as possible in my life. You know, paying it forward.

I have on the civil side, I'm married, I have a child by the name of Ahmed, he's two years old. My family lives in Germany. I'm still trying to join them, but the stigma of Guantanabe is still like chasing me. And I'm trying to promote my movie and I was invited by Belidid Kambabats, all of the crew, but I couldn't attend because the UK denied my visa. And this all the stigma of Guantanamo Bay, because they have this circular argument, if you had been to Guantanamo Bay, you must deserve to be in Guantanamo Bay. And I completely

understand like that the security forces like in a democracy, they have the sacred job to protect the people, you know, I understand that completely. And I understand that people commit violence for many reasons. One of them is ideology for reasons. But I just want the people in your country, and in the West to understand that my family and my friends in Mauritania, they just want the same thing that you want, you and your family wants. They want better jobs, better life, they want peace, they want longer life, better healthcare system, that what we talk about, we don't sit and think about how to help people we don't know

in the United Kingdom, we don't think about that. We understand, you know, we are, you are doing better than us, you know, being a free country for a very long time. It's a very good thing. We still fight for the most basic freedoms in this part of the world. And instead of your leaders us like encouraging like authoritarian regimes, we want them to encourage more democracy, more freedom, so that we could be like like you have the same freedom. So I work for that. There is of my life. I work for freedom. I don't want my son to be kidnapped. I don't want my son to be hurt, I don't want my son to be hurt, I want him to live a free life, you know, where he could choose, where to go, what to do, you know, without fear from the retribution, because he has different opinion or the government thinks that he's a bad guy. I work a lot on human rights and I do webinars

and I'm trying to be, you know, just to lead like good life, a happy life, will coming everyone not caring about political colors or political ideologies. Man, the world is so much of a better place for having you back in it. I adore your message. I think that the peace and the wisdom and the serenity that you bring to a situation that still cursed with all of the stuff that you went through is it's mind blowing. It's absolutely mind blowing and I want everybody that's listening to think about the challenges that they have in their life and about the things that they're resentful for about their housemate that didn't take the bins out last night, or about that guy that always parks in their parking space at work, or my coffee's a little

bit cold, or whatever it might be. You know, these things are the people that scorned them in the past. I have chips on my shoulder. I still have chips on my shoulder from teachers in school, or from the way that other kids spoke to me or all of this sort of stuff, if you are able to let go of the situation and the experiences that you've been through, there is no excuse for why someone like me living in the life that I have in the country that I have with the politics that we are fortunate to have. Think about the politics, think about how

how vehement and aggressive and forthcoming and self-righteous people are in America and the UK about our political system, about the fact that someone wants a slightly different type of tax on companies, income tax or business tax to another person. And again, we compare all of this with what it is that you went through. The contrast effect is such a powerful incentive when we're exposed to the best of everybody else's life on the internet and on social media every day. It's very easy to forget the normal blessings that we have, the ability to go to the bathroom without being watched, the ability to go to sleep in a dark room that's the right temperature, your freedoms, the fact that you can see your family, that you can see your mother when you want, how you want.

Man, the world's a significantly better place for having you back in it, and I'm very, very glad that you're here. Thank you so much. Chris, you are a very lovely person, and your message is a very beautiful message, and I'm a better person for having talked to you today and having been your guest,

and we're gonna see each other. I'm going to go there and bring down the house. I love it man. Positive way. I love it. You're exactly careful about saying that okay. God it started again. The Mauritania and everybody needs to go and check it out. It is available free to stream on Amazon Prime. If you've got it, also your book will be linked in the show notes below. Man, this has been outstanding. Thank you so much for your time today, brother. Thank you so much. I have another book that came out in February by the name Ahmad and Zarga is a novel, a short novel about bedwing life.

I'm going to send you the link. I love it. And that's about camels, right? Yes, yeah, you know about it already. And don't you worry, I know about it. I've done my research. Well, how about you, man? I hope to see you in the UK very soon. Thank you so much, man.

Thank you. Thank you, brother. Oh, yeah, I'm fed.