Modern Wisdom - #336 - Richard Lang - What It Feels Like To Have No Head

Episode Date: June 19, 2021

Richard Lang is the Co-ordinator of the Shollond Trust, a UK charity focussed on sharing the Headless Way. If you see a person from 6 feet away, they're a person. From 100,000 miles away they're a planet. From a few microns away they're cells. So what are they at their very centre? Who are we? This is the central question of The Headless Way and today Richard takes us through Douglas Harding's work to answer it along with some meditations and experiments you can do to illuminate these insights for yourself. Sponsors: Get 20% discount on the highest quality CBD Products from Pure Sport at https://puresportcbd.com/modernwisdom (use code: MW20) Get perfect teeth 70% cheaper than other invisible aligners from DW Aligners at http://dwaligners.co.uk/modernwisdom Extra Stuff: Check out Richard's Website - https://headless.org/ Watch "Who Are You?" - https://youtu.be/X_Vx2NcGWgo  Get my free Ultimate Life Hacks List to 10x your daily productivity → https://chriswillx.com/lifehacks/ To support me on Patreon (thank you): https://www.patreon.com/modernwisdom - Get in touch. Join the discussion with me and other like minded listeners in the episode comments on the MW YouTube Channel or message me... Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/ModernWisdomPodcast Email: https://www.chriswillx.com/contact Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What's happening people, welcome back to the show. Joining me today is Richard Lang. He's the coordinator of the Shollen Trust, a UK charity focused on sharing the headless way. If you see a person from six feet away, they're a person. From a hundred thousand miles away, they're a planet. From a few microns away, they're cells. So what are we at our very centre? Who are we? This is the central question of the headless way, and today Richard takes us through Douglas Harding, his mentor's work, to answer it, along with some meditations and experiments that you can do to illuminate these insights for yourself. Richard also happens to be the proud owner of perhaps the most peaceful and

calming voice on earth, after mine, obviously. So yes, today is a very calm, very peaceful, meditative insight into the nature of ourselves and our daily experience. I first heard Richard on Sam's show a couple of years ago and I absolutely loved him. I had to get him on. I really hope that you enjoyed this one too. But now it's time to learn what it feels like to have no head with Richard Lang. Richard Lang, welcome to the show. Thank you, thank you very much, Chris. Pleasure to be here, as they say. It's a pleasure to have you here. Some Harris says that the implications of the headless way provide insights into the nature of the mind, which he considers to be among the most important things that he's ever learned. Why do you think that the realization of not self is so impactful?

Because it's true. It's just a simple truth. I mean, I'm looking at you, Chris, and I know some people are just listening, but you can imagine. But I see your face, I don't see mine. And I know from the outside we're face to face. I understand that, but my own direct experience is face to no face. So I say, I've got your face into the mind. I'm built open for you. And that is very farble now. I'm not going by what someone has told me. I'm actually just looking and enjoying having your face. And you've got mine, you see. So we call it trading faces.

So that is available. It's verifiable. And it's loving, actually, because you're seeing that you're build open to others and welcoming the world in your open space here. And all the viewer, all this now has to do, is look for their own face. Note as you can't see it.

You see a bit of your nose coming out nowhere and there is sensation, right? But they don't add up to it's being inside a head. So I hardly use the word non-dual. I just, that seems to sort of, because I like the jewel as well, you see. It's important to remain aware of yourself as separate, you see?

Well, we've got that. We don't really have to work on that. Now we return back to our own point of view and see, you know, are you looking at two eyes or one opening, you see at two eyes or one opening? You see, and there's one opening. And you can't miss that, I think. You can't actually see your head. And you can't do it wrong, because you can't sort of half-see your headlessness. And, you know, so, and the headless way, it really started with Douglas Harding back in the 1940s and

he was asking the question, who am I? And finally, and he realized, well, as this model you were mentioning, so for those gods, it's a model with les and Douglas designed this and it shows you that at a certain range you see this is you at center there nothing emptiness, no face and under certain range six feet you're a person but further away you know you're a city and then a planet and a star and a galaxy or closer to your cells you you see. So this is verifiable. If someone looked at you and said, you said, what am I? I said, well, from here you're Chris, but if I went way up, you'd be the planet Earth. And if I came in close to you, you'd be cells.

Now the question is, what is at the centre of all these layers? What are you really? And you're the only one there, you see, I'm pointing right at you, you're the only one there, so you're the only one that can see, but as close as anyone can get, you're almost nothing. So we've teased, I suppose, the headless way, and we'll do some experiments in a little bit that will allow the watches and the listeners to be able to demonstrate this for themselves. How did Douglas discover the headless way?

He said he was asking himself questions, but he was an architect, right? He wasn't out to simply wandering the earth in a baggy pair of pants. No. Well, he was brought up in Lurstoft in Southk in the Plymouth Brethren, which is a very sort of fundamentalist Christian group, and you know you told what to believe and what to do. And at 21 he left, because he couldn't accept that they were the only path to God, just because they said they were right. You know that. But they didn't like that. If it criticised the mon theology, they could have defended it.

But you can't defend yourself against this is the truth because we say it's true. So he left, but he'd obviously been deeply affected by that kind of dedication to something beyond himself, I suppose you could say. But he then qualified as an architect in London and started working as an architect. And he got interested in trying to understand himself. But he wasn't going to go and ask someone else, what the truth was about him, he'd done that. So he started looking for himself, and he looked scientifically scientifically and philosophically and realized he was made of layers, like I've just said, and he wasn't just

human and he was made of these billions of little animals called cells, you know, incredible. Or he was part of society or part of the planet. And then he got married, he moved to India, got a job in India, and then the war broke out, second world war. And he had developed this idea of it. He was really intensely wanting to find out who he was before he died. You know, it was just, he was just hell-bent on that and find out for himself. And with all these layers, the nearer you get, the less there is. So it makes sense that there's sort of some kind of nothingness at the center.

But then one day, he was reading a book on philosophy and came across a drawing by a physicist called Ernst Mark, who was an inan article on perception. And the guy had drawn a picture of himself from his own point of view, point of view, first person. So there's a picture of his body and his arms and legs and the big nose and his mustache, but no head. And when Douglas saw this picture, he looked at himself, so that's it. I've been trying to get to the center from outside, and now I see I'm at the centre looking

out and the centre's empty but full. So then he spent the next seven years writing a book, working on a book to make sense of this in terms of science. He, C. S. Lewis read it, described it as the work of the of highest genius, work of a highest genius and wrote the preface for it, got published. And then in the following years, I met Douglas in 1970, he developed his experiments for testing this idea that you're not what you look like. You know, at six feet, you're a person with a head and in the mirror, what are you at zero? And so

a simple, you know, experiment of pointing back at yourself is to guide your attention. And he wrote many books and he explored the implications of this in, in all kinds of areas. And, you know, for the first 20 years after discovering this, you didn't share it with anyone. I think most people thought he was mad. Why? Well partly he was really involved in writing the book, but I don't know, he, whenever he tried to share it with someone, people wouldn't look, they'd just think, and say, you're mad. Of course you have got the head from there. But anyway, in 1964, he shared it with his secretary in his architectural practice, and he then thought, oh, I can die now. I shared it with one person,

right? And it was a very dramatic sharing. I mean, the bells of heaven rang, you know, for her, but But then after that he gradually shared it with more and more people and more and more and it gathered momentum in the way people saying, yeah, now I get what you're talking about Douglas. Sure, I'm built open So and then the more that people kind of recognized it was true and loving and helpful, the more they shared it as well. So, here we are. What makes it loving and helpful? Well, you see, when you see, when you're with someone else, and you are consciously away, you don't see your own face,

then you're attentive to them, you're out of the way. It's being attentive. And you're seeing that you're built open for them, so you're welcoming, you have their face. You see, you have that, well that's, I mean, and you're recognizing, I suppose, too, that they for themselves, they're also this open space, full of you, actually, or whoever. So it is recognizing, when you see who you are, when you see you, this open space for the world, then you must accept everyone else is in the same wonderful condition, which is very, that sort of namaste, if you know the idea of namaste, you put your hands together, it's a greeting, the two or one, I honour the one in you, it's the same as the one in me, you see, well that's headlessness. You see, the two, me and you are one. I've got

your face, you've got mine. There's only one consciousness here in that respect. So I see Chris, you see, I'm getting to know Chris a bit, but I know who you really are, which is this open space. What does built open mean, you keep on referring to that? What does built open mean? You keep on referring to that. Well, you see the thing is to have the experience and notice you can't see your head and instead you see the world. That's almost the simplest way you could say it, but it's a non-verbal experience. So I'm using words just to articulate this non-verbal experience. I can't see my head now, instead I see the world. So then I say that is, if I had a head here, I'd be closed, I'd be behind

a face, I'd be separate from you, but I don't have one here for me. So I say, I'm built open, but I mean, this is where you see, you say, if you don't, you know, the words I use and don't mean anything to you, find your own, because you've got it, you can't see your head instead, you see the world. Or when you're driving, you're still and the scenery is moving through you. You see? That insight about the fact that you are static and that the environment moves around you. When I first heard you explain that I had to relisten to it about five times and it's one of the most interesting insights that sit at the very

forefront of your daily attention. Could you just explain that to people? For the uninitiated that are watching and listening, can you just explain what you mean when you say that you are static and the environment moves around you? Yes. Well, the question that I keep coming back to is what are you? Who are you? Where are you living from? That makes all the difference. And if you're living from a thing that is moving through the world, that's one thing, right? And you understand that, that's what you look like. But I say, test it out and point back at your face and turn around on the spot and see

if you turn or the room turns. Now, you knew this as a kid. I mean, you love being, you know, someone spin you around or going on the roundabout because the world goes for a spin. And when you're driving and relaxed and you notice that the scenery is moving and you're still, you see. So the experiment itself is you just point back and turn around on the spot. And you notice that on the other side of your finger, the room is moving, and on the near side there's no movement, you're still. Now, this is fun, it's true, it's very relaxing, and if you go for a journey, from your point of view,

you go nowhere and your destination comes to you. So in all kinds of ways, you can see how that's relaxing and fun, you know, or if you're dancing, you know, you're still in the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, circumstances are dancing or, you know, moving around. And so, this is finding that is a you know it sounds sound superficial it's not you're discovering this central stillness where you are it's always still it's not you know your mind is moving my mind is moving all the time but the place I'm I'm looking out of and thinking from is still now it's always still now it makes a difference I. Now it makes a difference, I would say,

really makes a difference to be aware of that stillness in the midst of movement. It's very relaxing and therapeutic and yeah. Simply noticing the fact that your visual field is an oval. It sounds so stupid, but I never realized it. I know people don't. You know all these myths about people being in a dream, you know, or under a spell by a bad witch or something, well we're in a dream. You know, we think we're looking out too eyes and you look at the whole view now. I mean, people are going to say what you really mean, just actually look at what you're looking at two eyes and you look at the whole view now. I mean, people are going

to say, what you really mean just actually look at what you're looking at. Yeah, that's what I mean. Yeah. Right. And when you're looking at the actual view, then what you're looking at is most in focus. And then if you have what they call peripheral vision or soft eyes, then you include all the way to the edge of the field of views. So the viewer or listener can do this now. It's rather fun. You know, it's very relaxing. You, you notice all the way, you know, to the edge where it fades out. You can't look at it directly. You're looking directly at the middle of the view, but all the way around to the edge, it fades out, then you say, well, what is above it? Or what is to the left, you see? Well, what is to... there's nothing. So,

oh, what do you mean? I say, there's nothing. You can't, on present evidence, not memory or imagination, the whole view is floating in consciousness. To suspended there in the void, is he? Now, this is weightless. It's weightless. You're weightless. It's, it's, yeah, brilliant. What is a good experiment that we can do to introduce people to the headless way other than the moving through space. What's another good way to do it? Well, the pointing one is a very simple one. And again, it is testing the idea that you are space for the world, that you're not what you look like, what you look like, you see in the mirror,

or other people see or photographs, and that's a person with a head. But the hypothesis I'm putting forward is at center, you feel yourself are not a thing, you're nothing full of everything. So the way you do this is you get your finger and you point out at something. So the viewer or listener has to take their finger and look along it so you direct your attention

at something, it's worth doing, you know, rather than just listening to me. And when you look along it so you direct your attention at something. It's worth doing, rather than just listening to me. And when you look along, you think you look at a thing and it's got the colour and shape and size and so on. And it's surrounded by other things. Now, let's say you point at your other hand and it's the same. It's a thing, it's got colour and shape and movement and it's got a background. Now you point back at where others see your face, so you turn your finger around and point. Now what do you see there? Do you see your head? Do you see any colours or shapes or background? I don't. That's meditation, that's attention to what it's like to be you. And that, it's as simple as that.

You can't get it wrong. You see. What is the implication of the fact that your consciousness emanates from a particular spot and it is difficult to be able to observe that spot itself. I think it's incredibly easy. Things are difficult to observe. I'm looking off your face and it's so complicated and changing all the time and all of that, but I look back at my no face and it, what is difficult to see about that? You see, it is absolutely obvious. As Zens says, it's your original face, your true face, your no face.

And yeah, I don't really understand that question, Chris. What's the implication of it? What does it mean that, okay, when I try and observe myself, I can't see it. What's the implication of that beyond? When you're looking at me, you see, you can't see your own face, right? What do you see instead? The bridge of my nose and the inside of my eye. Right. And then further out than that, you see my face, right?

Yes. Okay, so you could say instead of your face, now you see Richards. Yeah? So is any distance between you and Richard now? Now you can measure and say the distance between my eyes between two things, right? You could, right?

But now, measure between rich and space, and the no thing you're looking out of. I mean, there's no way you measure from, right? So, so the whole world is not distant. It's given right where you are. It's yours. It's yours. You're infinitely rich, because there's no distance from your point of view. It's all in your awareness. So, you know, that is, you've got your sort of invisible arms around the whole universe. It's all in you. It's not distant.

Everyone's faces your own, no? And also, the space that you're looking out of is not affected by, you know, if you look at your hand, you see, and you see your arm and your shoulder, and so your arm is coming out of the headless body, your arm is coming out of your central emptiness here, and there you can see it. And now you make your hand into a fist and it's tense. Is the central emptiness tense? No. No.

The hand is tense, but nearer to you, where you're looking from, is tension-free, stress-free. You see, in the midst of stress, just as it's free of movement, in the midst of movement, it's stress-free. Now, to be aware, in busy lives that we're still at center, or to be aware in our stressed lives, that we are at center stress-free, that we're coming from that we are at center stress free, that we're coming from a place that is stress free, that is there. Now this is meditation, it's never just thinking about it, you've got to pay attention to it and be aware of it. And that's the thing, it's that easy to see your headless, but the thing is living from it and practicing it. And I think you've got to want to, but it's not as hard as it might seem. You've just got to develop

the habit, you know, when you're around people start to notice its face to no face, or when you're on your own, notice your single eye, this oval shape of the world disappearing. See, my hands disappearing to nothing here, and then come out again. It is fun as well. You see, it's not a somber thing. It's light and fun. And it's very familiar. I mean, you like this as a baby, see, just open. So, you know, or if you close your eyes for a moment and just ask yourself, how big are you on present evidence, not from memory, you've got sensations and thoughts and feelings, but I can't say how big I am. And the darkness is just, you know, how big is the darkness? I can't tell. How big am I? I don't know.

So if you're lying in bed, just be aware that you don't have a size or a shape, it's very relaxing. See, if you open your eyes now, then it's the world repairs and great void. You said that it's not a somber or a super serious way to think about meditation. I think that you've talked about someone referencing Douglas's students, or you always being able to know where Douglas's students were because they're the ones that we're always laughing. No, but this is I didn't know that. Yeah, that was true.

Well, yes, yes. You see the thing is, we have group Zoom groups, you know, several a week, and they're free, and anyone's welcome to join if you're interested in this. And you know, you've tried the experiments, but why should they go for that? Go to headless.org and you'll find information about there or contact me through headless.org. Yeah. So the thing is that I was saying it about the groups, that the thing is that you, when you see who you are, you realize it's so simple and everyone gets it. So there isn't a hierarchy. So I'm talking to you as an equal here, you see, because the space is as obvious to you as it is to me.

You have a different reaction to it, you see. But to hang out with others who are aware of this and sharing their responses to it, isn't this sort of hierarchical thing where one person's got it and you've got to listen and write it all down and try and behave. It's like, we've all got it and let's share our different reactions to it. And that's infectious. So what I'm saying is that one way or another, the thing is to get it going in your life, get into the habit of it, enjoy it, and the more that you're aware of it, the more natural it becomes, and the more it benefits you, you discover what a great benefit it is to live from this. It seems to me that there's a little bit of a central paradox to try and work out, it sounds like at center we are nothing and yet at the same time we are

all the universe with it arms wrapped around us. How can you explain another way for me and the listeners to understand how that fits together? how that fits together. Well, the thing is to look and see if it's true. You see, that's the... It's not primarily about understanding, it's about having a look for yourself and then describing it in the way that you think. So, I'm only using my words to describe this experience, which I'm absolutely convinced

is the same for you. For everyone, how could it not be? And for all animals, actually. And so, I would say that looking here, you see, with growing up, you learn to see yourself as others see you. When you're a baby, you don't know what you look like. As a child, you're learning to identify with the image in the mirror. I'll turn that off.

So as a child, you're learning to find out who you are in society, which is what other people see you to be. And you're learning to look in the mirror and take that image and sort of wear it. And other people are projecting your image back on you, so you take that on board. So by the time you're an adult, you see, when you're a baby, you haven't got that yet. You just open. You're not self-conscious. You've no idea yet.

If I was a baby now and I was looking at you, I wouldn't have any idea what you were seeing and I'd just be looking, you see. And I wouldn't be feeling self-conscious. And you as an adult would enjoy that because you would know that I'm not feeling self-conscious, so you'd relax into that, right? It's infectious. Now as you grow up, everyone, your parents and everyone, reflects back to you what you look like, with the help of the mirror language. So by the time you're a child, you're getting a good idea of what you are, but you're still not fixed in the box that you think you're in. You know, it's as easy to be a lion as a little boy or girl, is he? Because you're not fixed yet. And your friends are all in the same un-fixed place as well, so you all play at being lions together. So until my mom or dad comes along and tells

you you're a little boy or a little girl or whatever, you see. Oh right, yeah, I forgot. We forget that we were so open at the time, but we were, but we know it. We know it. Anyway, by the time you're an adult, you've had 24 or 7 feedback of what you look like, and you absolutely take it on board, that you are what you look like at center for yourself, that you're not open space, you're not nothing, you're a thing. Now, that's really important, obviously, to know so that you can function and, you know, why people are talking to you. You've got this understanding of who you are. Now, most people, probably, that's it.

You're growing up, it's finding out who you are in society and then making the best of the cards you've been dealt. But what the headless way is saying, well, actually, it's not the whole story. It's not the whole story about you. You now take a fresh look at what it's like to be you. You've got the objective thing going. You see which you didn't have as a child or a infant. You've got that going. You don't have to worry about that. You're well aware of what you look like, you know, who you are, your name, where you live. You've got that going now, that you've got that going.

Pause and take a moment to look for yourself, what it's like to be you, without all that feedback. You see, when you play that game in a party, where they write a famous film star name and put it on your forehead, how do you find out? You go to ask everyone. You can't see yourself. You go to ask them. It's the same growing up. Who am I? Please tell me. And then you think now you know who you are whether or anyone's telling you or not, but the only way you do actually knows through others. So what the headless way is saying, okay, you've got that going, now pause and just now look for yourself, don't rely on others. You've got that going, you're just not denying that. Look for yourself now, be your own authority,

you've got to stand on your own to do this and you can say, right, just for this moment, I'm actually going to pause and actually pay attention to what it's like to be me without any help. And that's what the experiments are doing. They're saying, right, you have been under the deep conviction that you are what you look like, you're with the head. All right, you got that going, but now pause and look for yourself and take seriously what you actually experience. So, are you take a look, you see? I go, oh right, there isn't anything here except space for the whole world. Right? That's, you see? So, that's not asking you to take yet again ask someone else what you are is saying, no, you be the authority on you now and you direct your attention back to

the pleasure looking out of. And all you see, this is in line with what all the great mystics have said that your centre is a great treasure. So, to a timeless treasure, you see, who you really, really are, is amazing. So this is, this is, saying, right, well, let's have a look, you see. That's not believed. Let's look through yourself now. Are you looking out to two eyes or out of one opening? Do you move or does the world move through you? Are you face to face with others or is it face to no face? When you close

your eyes, do you have any boundaries? When you think, I mean, you've been told that your thoughts come out your brain or somewhere, right? Out of something, you're thinking those thoughts are now in your head. You see, well I, I pay attention, I think of the number 10, I see, I've no idea where that came from. Right? That just came out, the great boy, they call it the no mind, right? You see, or think of the face of a friend. Well, I mean, where did that come from?

It just comes out. So you say, oh, okay, right, I've got the idea, I've got a mind, but when I look for myself, I've no mind, and my mind comes out of that. Now when you've got the idea that you've got a mind in your head, it's a very busy place, I mean, not going on in a tiny spot, you know, you're head busy mind, you know. Oh my head's so busy, it's so full, it's you, that's the way we describe it. You pay attention and your thoughts coming out nowhere, they're out of great space. You're free of your thoughts where you are. You've got lots of thoughts. I mean actually it improves creativity because you're not

kind of limiting yourself. So this is, then you see, you start with the experience, you go straight to the experience and then you explore what it means to you. And that's where it's so much fun to be with others because you get to hear what they think as well. You talked about the mirror then looking back. Are there any experiments that people can do using a mirror if they're near one there? Oh yes. You get a mirror or you can use your phone, you know, the selfie thing and you hold it in your hand and you look down your arm and you ask yourself, it's incredibly simple. All right, I see my face there, like I can see it on the screen, you see, I see my face

out there at the far end of my arm because I'm holding the hand out with the mirror or the phone. Now, do I see her face at the near end? No. My arm disappears into open space. That, my mirror shows me where my face is. It's out there on the screen, out in you, out in the mirror, in the phone, but not at my center, you see? And what we do when we grow out,

you see the baby doesn't import that image, the baby is another, the in-face, another infant, it's not you. And you've got to learn to put that face on. So what you do in imagination is you reach in, get out of your little face there, pull it out, imagination, flip it the other way around because it's facing the wrong way. Make it bigger because it's tiny and you're going to marry it to these sensations. You can feel your mouth but you can't see your

mouth, right? And in the mirror you can see your mouth but you can't feel it. Now if you want to know where to put your food, you've got to marry the image to the sensation, right? Here it comes into the air hang out, you see. So, you learn to map that image in the mirror onto the sensations and your back and your foot and great, great. But you know, the image, always, when you do the experiment you say, oh, okay, the image is there and I'm here. I am not my image. You know, we all want, hey, stop defining me. All right, we'll stop defining yourself. That's that, you know, see that you're undefined. Then other people can define you till their hearts can turn, because it doesn't stick. I like the experiment of thinking about what it's like to look at a child, especially an infant or a baby, and you are right, there's an odd sense of freedom releasing when you are with another creature that doesn't see you in the same way that

you think are the people see you. I think that's the interesting thing about self-consciousness, right? It's not, self-consciousness isn't, I'm conscious of myself, it's, I'm conscious of other people being conscious of me. Yes. That's right. You only know yourself through others. That's right, you only know yourself through others. That's right, and so the baby is not feeling self-conscious, you see, is just not, got

a head on yet. Just open, you see. And that's very still in a baby when a baby is not hungry or something, they're just very still and attentive and not so conscious, you see. Well, we can't go back to that, but we can go on to awakening, to having no face for ourselves, you see. And then it really makes a difference because you'll never control what people think of you or how they see you. But you can control whether or not you identify with it. You know, you can pay attention now to the place you're looking out of. And it like in that game with the guest

the name of the film star on your forehead you can't see you know you're undefined for yourself you can't define yourself. So but take that seriously you see for me I'm undefined. Now I cannot be pinned down for me. Now that makes a big difference when everyone's trying to pin you down. It's the sound script term, you're unpinable down. So the technical term? Yeah, that's the technical term. Talk to me about how the students that you've worked with and the groups that you've worked with, what are some of the ways that realizing that the headless has helped people in their daily lives? You've already identified it takes a little bit of time to go from perhaps a conceptual realization to building it up into a habit so that you notice it throughout the day.

But I imagine that identifying with negative thoughts and emotions in a monologue and labels from other people and nervousness and self-consciousness, I imagine that these are some of the primary places that it assists people at least in their daily experience. Yes. replaces that it assists people at least in their daily experience. Yes, I mean, first of all, I don't have students, I have friends. Which is an important point, really, that we're equal. And I can't see this space more clearly or less clearly than anyone else. And anyone else's response to it is as valid as mine and vice versa. So it's just sharing of equal. And this makes, this really amongst the people that I

know, and I know lots of people who are living from this and exploring its benefits. So finding out how it's beneficial in their lives. I mean it just helps in almost every way you can think. I don't know where to start You know, it's somehow self-evident. You've found home. You've found home. You're not seeking anymore. You'll find it. You've found home.

Now even if the world goes to hell in a handbasket, which you might well do. You know internally you found home. You're at home because the world isn't home in you. You're seeing that you are, you know, I mean it's just incredible. You're not a thing in the world for yourself. You're the space in which the world is happening. That is safe. You see, so you're recognizing it's kind of trying to get used to having won the lottery. You can't spend it all at once, but you know, like you won the lottery, right? Now, enjoy it or live it or you know, keep coming back to it. You could only be aware of it now, right now, you know? It's not about, you know, stretching it out.

It's just available now. And so I am noticing that this conversation is unfolding in this space. And you are a guest in my awareness. Right? As the trees out the window and the bird is a very friendly place to come from. And it, because we have grown up and been educated in the opposite, that the world is strange and separate and over there and people are not me and we're all strangers and I'm going to die and all of that.

So now you are discovering the opposite is also true, that's true, but the opposite is also true. So, wow, okay, I hope I live a long life to sort of drink this deep, you know, and apply it and explore it and keep coming back to it, and finding as well. I think also, I suppose one learns to gradually learn to trust it somehow. Who are you? You say, well, there's a story by Rumi, the Persian poet. I read this, Douglas found this, Douglas Harding. And a dervish, a saint comes out of the desert or out the, you know, into the village. And the guy in the village recognizes he's a saint comes out of the desert or out into the village. The guy in the village recognizes he's a saint. You see, someone who's aware of who he really is, like this, you see.

And you know, when you're by the water and the sun's going down, the light of the sun comes across the water to you. And it'll not to anyone else, right? It doesn't go across the water to Fred. It goes to you, to the source, right? And so anyway, the guy comes out the desert and the village has said, oh, okay, you know, he recognizes him as a saint. He said, how are you? How are you? And the guy said, you're asking me how I am, me for whom the sun rises, the rivers flow.

You see the sun comes across the water to me. And even the sun glinting on somebody's tooth doesn't happen without my permission, because I'm the source, I'm the center, still center to turning one. I am the one, you're asking me how I am. I'm all right, thanks. Yes, you see, as you really are, you are all right, thanks. As Richard, I'm not, you know, you are, all right, thanks. As Richard, I'm not, you know, but as who I really am, now that, you know, you, who in their own estimation is all right, really, all the time. I haven't met anyone, and I think there'd be rather diluted if they did think they were. You see, we have to live with this, you know, craze is

a situation of being a human being, we're always making mistakes and trying our best, but you know, very limited. So I mean, self-awareness is at least at some part is accepting that you put your foot in it, you know? But who you really are doesn't put its foot in it. Who you really are, your true nature, see, is just alright, more than alright. And so it is a great balance to awareness of your limitations, as a person, to being aware of the perfection of who you really are. And there's always this two and fro between your awareness of who you are as a person, born and will die, but your true nature is never born and will never die. So that's a great kind of counterbalance

or your human nature is stressed, but your true nature is unstressed, we did that experiment, you know. So that it's not denying the stress, it's balancing it, you see, with the truth. Or, you know, your human nature is always in motion, but your true nature is still. So, have that, you know, move back and forth, if you like, between those two poles of the battery, between those two sides of yourself, rather than just focusing on one. It's interesting that you brought up life and death there. I wondered whether the headless way had any implications for the shortness of life. It's something that a lot of philosophies

and people deal with. The fact that if you are this nothing and everything, if the universe has its arms wrapped around you, you don't want that to go away. Well, first of all, you you say if you are well I am I see I am it's not an if it's it's I am so that's one thing I gotta put you right there and the other thing is that you it's that balance of opposites really your human nature is you know your human nature is short, it's brief, it comes and who knows how long you're going to last. And we live with that every day, everyone does. So that's that reality, but there's your true nature, which is not in time. I look from the timeless into time, the space isn't in time, and that embraces everything. So you see there's this balance between this insecurity and uncertainty and brevity, potentially, of your human life,

or of life, you see. And your unchanging eternal nature is who you really are. It's just empty, full, or full of something. And that helps me cope better with the very real fact that I'm going to die and lots of bad things happen in the world. This is, you see, not a kind of, not trying to sell a philosophy, it's saying, look for yourself and then describe it, you know, but I say, you know, one of our experiments is the time one, you know, you're looking out into time, it's a certain time in, you know,

10 to 7 or something, whatever it is. Now what time is it where you are? Well time and change go together, don't they? This meeting has lasted so far 50 minutes and it's changing all the time, that's time, right? Now where you are, do you see anything changing? No. Where there's no change, there's no time, and I look from the time less into time, you get the best of both worlds. So you're not in denial of either your timefulness or your timelessness. Can you remember what it's like to be headed? Of course, I'm aware of it every day, you know, it's just like everyone else, but I am also

with my headlessness, that's the difference. So it's not like you, I mean what on earth would it be like not to be aware of your head, you'd be gargoyle, wouldn't you? You'd have to be taken to the hospital. You wouldn't be able to talk. You, someone that would look at you and you, you wouldn't know they were looking at anything like the baby, right? Baby is neat, taking care of. But I've got my head on. And now I'm saying I, I, for myself, I don't. And I distinguish, but, you know, I, I think that you see the thing

is, but when you see your headless, you don't suddenly become headless. You realise you've always been headless. It's not suddenly, oh, you know, I, all the way up to my life till now, I've had a head and now I don't. You realize, oh, no, I've never had one here, out there in the mirror in others, in my own, you know, self-consciousness, but right here where I have never had one. Now, you say, well, actually, even though I didn't know it for my whole life, I've never had one. I've always been open. I just didn't know it. Then you think, well actually that's true of everyone. Everyone. No one can see their

own head. Everyone is living from their true nature. So that's why we don't go mad. Because we're actually living from this. and when we drop our guard and relax, you know, we're naturally headless. You see, if we don't feel threatened, when we're with a baby, you see, we naturally drop our defenses and that surface that separates us. See, but now you can do it consciously. You don't have to wait for the kind of conditions. I wonder whether that is one of the attractions that people see with spending time with babies, with spending time with pets and animals, spending time in nature, that level of serenity and the lack of neuroticismism focusing your thoughts about thoughts on yourself

being pulled out into what it is that you see around you without seeing something that sees you as you Yes That's right. Yes But you that that's right and that is your natural headlessness You see when you're relaxed, when you're the baby, when you're in nature, when you're not being, you know, under inspection, being looked at, then you're headless, if my terms.

But the thing is, you can enjoy that when you're in a crowd. You can consciously notice your headless and space for the world. Now that is really useful. Yeah. Richard Lang, ladies and gentlemen, headless.org. That's right. If people want to keep up to date and also you've got an awesome new video on your YouTube channel. Which will be linked in the show notes below. Any other things that people should check out? Well, if you're really interested to meet others, if you've done some of the experiments and the headless experiences is meaningful to you, I suppose I would say, and you want to meet others who are to you I suppose I would say, and you want to meet others who are living from this, we have lots of Zoom meetings, free ones each week. So there's a community online of people

who are living from this, and it's very friendly. So through the website you can get in touch with me and I can give you information, and you're welcome. Yeah, so, I think that's probably the information to give out. Amazing. Richard, thank you so much. Thank you. Nice to meet you. Nice to have your face, Chris. Nice to be Chris. And you, nice to be Chris. And you. Nice to be Richard.