Modern Wisdom - #360 - Incels, Afghanistan & Apple's Privacy Blunder

Episode Date: August 19, 2021

Jonny & Yusef join me today as we discuss recent news stories including why breastfeeding now needs recategorising to be more inclusive, how being injected with the flu might improve your lifting numbers, whether the incel movement caused the Plymouth shooting, why Apple's new privacy updates are problematic for privacy and much more... Sponsors: Get 20% discount on the highest quality CBD Products from Pure Sport at https://puresportcbd.com/modernwisdom (use code: MW20) Get perfect teeth 70% cheaper than other invisible aligners from DW Aligners at http://dwaligners.co.uk/modernwisdom Extra Stuff: Get Propane's Free Online Business Training - https://propanefitness.com/mwbusiness Get Propane's Free Online Fitness Business Tips - https://propanefitness.com/modernwisdom Get free diet advice from PropaneFitness - https://propanefitness.com  Get my free Reading List of 100 books to read before you die → https://chriswillx.com/books/ To support me on Patreon (thank you): https://www.patreon.com/modernwisdom - Get in touch. Join the discussion with me and other like minded listeners in the episode comments on the MW YouTube Channel or message me... Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/ModernWisdomPodcast Email: https://chriswillx.com/contact/  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

My guests today are Johnny and you, Seth from propanefitness.com. And we're just catching up about what's being going on in our lives. I was way in London. You, Seth's on a new rotation and Johnny got COVID. We're also going to be discussing some of the recent news stories, including why breastfeeding now needs to be

recategorized to be more inclusive. How being injected with the flu might improve your lifting numbers, whether the in-sell movement caused the plimuth shooting, why Apple's new privacy updates are problematic for privacy, and much more. Don't forget that you might be listening but not subscribed, and it is the only way that you can ensure that you are never going to miss an episode every Monday, Thursday, and Saturday when they get uploaded, so just open your little podcast app, take your fingers for a walk and press the subscribe button.

I thank you. But now it's time for the wise and wonderful Johnny and Yusef. Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, welcome back to the show. I am joined by Johnny and you, Seth from propanefitness.com. How you doing? Very good, indeed. How are you? Very well, thank you. Nice protein shirt, Johnny.

Thank you. Protein shirt. Protein shirt. My protein. He is protein. It is protein. It is, yeah. Nice protein shirt, Johnny. Thank you. Protein shirt. Protein shirt. My protein is protein. It is. It is. Yeah. It's not your protein. My protein. Yeah. What were you talking about your Kurdish hairdo? You said, Oh, yeah. So I have found if you've never been to a Kurdish bar, but you're missing out. Sometimes they, they're Turkish barbers. I think I think the one I might as a mixture of Azerbaijan,

Turkish and Iranian, and they always have some top tunes playing, and they give you the like, you can ask for the full treatment, which is like wax buds in your nose and the fire on a string, and like the hot towel on your head and all that stuff. Interest the burning in the background. The full, full whack. Meet in flat pieces of bread on the way out. What an experience. I'd go. It just puts like the standard barber to shame.

Yeah. Yeah. So chest feeding, I found this article earlier on. This is from the Daily Wire. Kirsty Alley blasts trans terms like chest feeding, calling them degrading to women. Actress Cursty Alley slammed so-called trans inclusive terminology like chest feeding over the weekend, claiming it degrades and nullifies women. It was unclear what sparked Alley's comment, but last week as the Daily Wire reported, the Academy of Breastfeeding Medicine published new guidelines on lactation-related language. Among

the organization's recommendations is replacing the verb breastfeeding with gender-neutral terms, like human milk feeding and chest feeding, because they claim not all people who give birth and lactate identify as female. Whilst the vast majority of responses to Ali including nearly 1,600 likes, as 16,000 likes, expressed agreement she seemed to address the comparatively few critical replies about 15 minutes later. I'm a little tired of degrading and nullifying women and their abilities, she explained. Breastfeeding is one of our abilities. It's a beautiful and important ability. Knock off the nullifying of women for the sake of lunatics.

Equal rights does not equal insanity. A few minutes later she added, it's our personal responsibility to agree or disagree with concepts. My only point here today is don't let insanity force you to pretend like you agree with the insanity. It's part of the insanity to shame you into agreement. Chestfeeding, you, Seth. This is a clash between two different, do you call it a civil rights movement,

two different social movements of the women's ability to say, this is our, this is a female anatomy, and this is part of our remit, and others saying, no, that's a gendered term, and it's not inclusive for transitioning people. So my problem with that is that there is such thing as a male breast. If it's in the context of a breast cancer or something, but a breast is capable of lactating and a chest is not capable of lactating. So, to call it chest feeding, it's like a,

until you can have a chest which lactates, I don't see how it is a more inclusive term. You can transition and still have a lactating breast. But once it becomes a chest, then you can't. So, I'm not really sure what the, what their original point is to can I address the language? Can a breast become a chest? Can a breast cease to be a breast? I think it's too, a breast can become a chest and vice versa.

But you're not, so in mammary glands, they're just latent in men, are they? And not used, not being used. Yeah, so you, you know, a chest can become a breast if you are a male, taking female hormones and you can form the... And will they lactate? Yeah. I had a friend in school who was adamant that if you stimulated your nipples for three months straight for a couple of minutes a day, they'd start to lactate as a man. So he tried, I So he tried to,

I remember he tried to do it, and he'd sit in class and do it. I don't know where he ended up. I don't know where he's at. That's a risky move, like just to try and prove a point to it itself. It's not risky. It's a couple of minutes a day. But what if it works? Then you're a teenage boy with a lactating chest. Well,, a lactating chest. Sorry. Well, well, hold on, because you said there is a if a man has breast cancer, that's possible. Right. Yeah. So therefore surely everybody has breasts. Everyone has potential for breasts. Right. Yeah, you are right with what you say here. There's sort of these conflicting intersectional ideologies going on here that women want their spaces protected,

but at the moment it would appear that sort of trans rights, women's rights, so that the women's rights need to be folded in order to accommodate that. Well, so I've just done a video about what is the physiological advantage that trans athletes have in sport. And it's exactly the same thing. It's some whether in the interest, in the pursuit of fairness versus the pursuit of inclusivity, those are both at odds with each other. And while we, you know, you want to be able to grant someone their right to their gender expression, you want to be able to grant someone their right to their gender expression, but if that's at the expense of losing fairness in women's sport or in men's sport in some cases, you what you've baked what you've essentially got is someone who

has a similar background to someone who's had multiple steroid cycles or a multi-year exposure to male hormones and then is competing, so that the point was that subacute testosterone suppression may not fully eliminate the advantage. So it only needs to be for one year, right? You only need to be at 10 nanomoles per litre for one year. And that's basically like doing a 30-year steroid cycle cycling off and then going to compete. I don't know whether you saw that the IOC this weekend said that the 10 animals limit is now going to be changed because some women are higher and some men are lower. Yeah, exactly.

But there's of course inclusivity barriers that mean if you're a trans athlete, you face a lot of potential hate on social media and a lot of difficulty and feeling included in sport and so on. It's not, I'm not saying that the social struggle is not real, but it's about how do you solve that problem? There's multiple constraints and parameters and to try and match the two is difficult. Yeah. Because you can't even say, well, this person has this like hormonal profile now.

Therefore, they should compete here because it's the history that we can't test for. Right, that's really what determines. Has anyone done it in powerlifting yet, Johnny? Has there been any trans athletes in powerlifting? Not that I'm aware of. There is a there's a famous one. I can't remember the name. But yeah, very similar. All the famous examples I've seen have been in weightlifting. Yeah, I don't really understand why that is. I would have thought to give weightlifters their due, their movements are a little bit more sort of technical.

There's more room for getting things wrong. So as a sheer expression of power, which would be, there would be bigger disparities between men and women in the sport of powerlifting I would have thought that that would have shown up in a wide margin. I'm not current enough with the current like the powerlifting well as it is to know for sure But I think if it if that is the case, I think probably the reason is that the weightlifting world just has a higher Like you can get to the Olympics Right basically at the moment with Paul if you can't.

And so why? It just doesn't exist. I think, so I think the reason that I've heard is that it's an assisted lift in the sense that if you're doing a squat, you have to have spotless. And I think that's one of the reasons, again, like I don't know the ins and outs, but I think that's one of the reasons why

hasn't mean acceptors in Olympic sport because you need other people there in order for you to perform. And if you think about all the other individual sports, that's not the case. They're all like an athlete on their own, demonstrating their ability and no one needs to be that helpful. I've seen people in the gymnastic double pole or whatever it's called when they have the two bars, the coach often lifts the gymnast to get the first bar. I know it's not quite the same, but it's not a million miles off.

That's an important point. So I think they are fighting to try and get power with the Olympics. Have you seen what Zach Taland has been talking about recently to do with the press out at the top of lifts in weight lifting. So it's a no rep if when you go into the snatch, you catch it with a slight bend and then push out. And he's just been finding lifts from the Olympics where they're obviously really good lifts and someone's maybe caught it with a tiny little bit of a bend or maybe somebody's biomechanics just have that bend in it. And the judges have red-lighted them for something that just looks like a great lift. And there's no advantage.

Like if I gave you the option of pressing something out overhead and catching it bent armed or straight armed, like you're making it harder, they should get like a double gold for doing that. Yeah, I mean, anybody who can press, constrict press what they snatch or be in a joke, I think deserves recognition for that, not a penalty. Super taught. Yeah, but there's these things I imagine then. I imagine if you get really into like the track and field world, there's lots of like

little wrinkly rules that don't make sense. Did you see that there's a British guy who made it to the 100 meters final and you don't get any false start lives anymore. If you trigger the false start, that's it, you're out. So this guy made it all the way to the Olympic 100 meters finals and apparently was pretty quick and in with a good shot of being, of placing quite well and set off too soon. And then some Japanese, a, a steward came over, showed him a huge red card. Like it was like a, a two piece of paper. Just, just in case everyone didn't see it.

And then he, he didn't get to continue, which sucked. And, I, I can imagine specializing in training in that sport for that long, reaching the final for five years since the last Olympics, seeing like knocked out on a technicality that is as basic as they come. Like, so I would have thought there'd be like, ah, sorry guys, like start again. But to be like, no, you're not even allowed. That's it.

You're used to be that you got one full start permission, I think, perathlete or something like that. But then they've obviously changed the rules and he just set off too soon and immediately he just knew. Well, this is exactly the problem with all of these things. Like, as soon as there's a tiny bit of wiggle room, people exploit it and take the mic. Like if everyone was allowed one full start each, you know that there'll be a race where every single athlete will just be like, oh, well, yeah. So, yeah.

Johnny, you had COVID, what was COVID like? Well, I mean, it's hard to sort of complain about it because ultimately I'm fine. And I know obviously a lot of people aren't or weren't fine, but it was, I would say worse than I expected it to be, to be honest. What does that mean? Just, I don't know, like, you kind of assume at someone who like exercises and kind of takes care of the health and I'm not overweight or any of these things, you kind of assume like, ah, it'll be a, I'll have a bit of a sniffle and then it'll go away, but I think it's more the total, just completely feeling wiped for like four or five days straight. I don't know how you two feel about this, but I don't remember aside from that the last time I was like

sick for anything. I haven't been ill since before 2020 because I didn't see anyone for all of last year. I didn't get ill. I literally haven't been sick since then So I think it's probably it's like temperature, right? I think it's the contrast because I've spoken to other people who Seemed to have had sort of a similar set of symptoms to me, but then we'll also sort like yeah But I get something that that one's a year. I'm like, what? What do you mean? But yeah, I think like I like that once a year. I'm like, what? What do you mean? But yeah, I suppose it depends on how often you get like the flu or the cold or anything like that.

But when you try and train or try and monitor, try and maximize your sleep, and my throat was so sore for a period of time, like two nights in a row where every time I swallowed, it was like an eight out of ten pain and it woke me up. So like, imagine having like a dry, like really dry mouth and then you like, you're going at a sip of water and then you swallow, like just before the seat, yeah, awake again. And so it's like this cruel trick of like, you feel terrible already and then you just have night after night of like interrupted sleep And it's just spirals and gets worse

But yeah, it wasn't just like it I had a bit of a bit of a cold and felt crap for a day or two. It was like a full week. Tell me training though for one day For it. Yeah, for a so the day I suspected that I had it so basically I went on a stag do and much to use up on Chris' amusement, I was like super compliant for all of 2020. Went on a stag do to Manchester in a beer color where one of the England games was being played.

And you sat there in the beer colour as everyone's like chanting. Given how much it's been lugging, I love football, yeah I was like I was over the moon to be there. I hate football. Everyone's chanting and like hugging each other and they just sat there and I go, here we go. Here we go. Come on the blues. So like two or three days after that, I thought it was probably still just like a sleep and I probably don't have COVID. So trained did a squat single,

like a heavy single and squat. And I measured the bar speed of all my squats, did this rep and I was like, oh my god, that is the fastest that has ever moved. Like of all the reps I've collected, like thousands of reps, that is the fastest that has ever moved. Like, of all the reps I've collected, like thousands of reps, that is the fastest that has ever been. So I walked out of my garage thinking like, I'm fine, I definitely don't have COVID.

And then the next morning, like, oh my God. And you spoke to your coach, didn't you say that that's like a previously used training enhancement? So I was telling him about it, I was like, have you heard of anyone else who kind of had this window where, as you were sort of dealing with the virus, you kind of, your performance improved.

And he was saying it's like an old technique where they would, I don't know how true this is, but apparently these two inject flu into strength athletes because there's this window where you kind of supercompensate, I can see use of just sort of skimming over the... Well, there's a literature there, you see live scene. There's this period as you're kind of dealing with it where your performance is higher than normal, but then obviously you get the flu. So you've got to time it right. Yeah, if you get that one day early... Yeah, the competition gets delayed. You're like, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh gets delayed. It's like, oh, I got caught. There's some really brutal techniques that like the USSR and Russia and like some

of Europe used to like, not obviously there's the hormone treatment and PEDs and stuff, but there's stuff like this like injecting someone with a virus or creating an abortion in a athlete. Like so getting them pregnant and then inducing an abortion to, I think it's to manipulate their weight or something like that. And all these, like, they're just like messing with people's physiology just so that they can squeeze out

another- How does an abortion do? I think it was used with judo athletes presumably to help them make weight. I don't really understand. Heavy weight, right? That isn't it. I mean, you just, you, you, you just go on a longer, on a longer deficit. Yeah, it just seems like a sledgehammer. In like the, the part of the competitions I've done, like at the international level, you realize quite quickly that, like

the Russian team, like that's their job. So you're going up against like the British team who are sort of paying that to be there themselves, training in their spare time, you know, occasionally get a session in and interrupted against literally people who not only have coaches who are willing to do things like that, but they're getting paid to do it. And the population of Russia as well. Yeah. And when your coach is making you get an abortion so that you make weight or inducing

inducing pregnancy and then making you get an abortion just so that you make weight, that's a level of intensity, yeah, exactly. Why, I mean, you just the UK, we're not going to go there. Yeah. I mean, I don't think anybody should go that really. Like, where you're you're from as a this is why the communists are winning though, Johnny, because they're prepared to take it to places. Whatever it takes. Yeah, exactly. That's the mentality that they've got. It, well, I mean, like back to your point about, like, Olympics and powerlifting, like the

fact that people are willing to do stuff like that and all you get is a plastic trophy and something around your neck and someone putting you in the back. And like, yeah, yeah, it's fun, but it is just just power of the thing. You know, there's not, it's not yet a career and people, the people who win the, the IPF World Championships aren't being it if you don't BBC News, you know, it's not quite the same stuff. Did someone pull 1,000 and five kilos this weekend. This can't. 1000 years, sorry, 1000, five, five, or five hundred and five kilos, sorry.

Um, big deadlift. So they had taking, uh, half four, no, so it was a guy from Manchester. There was a huge event on this weekend, and Eddie Hall was there, um, helping to present it. And they had five hundred and five kilos on the bar. So Eddie Hall had there helping to present it and they had 505 kilos on the bar.

So Eddie Hall had it and then half thought had it. Yeah, took it off very controversially and then yeah, so Eddie posted on his YouTube channel something about a 505 deadlift or a record. So yeah, you're right. Wow, I haven't seen it though. It's first up ahead of it. Did they get the wrap? I'm not sure. So I knew that they had the barrel set up, which is a lot of weight. It's a lot of weight when you look at that. It's too much for me.

If anything. I thought too much. Yeah, they should take some off. If they took some off, they would be able to do it more easily. I know. I'd be able to do it if they took some off. I thought everybody would at some point. Yeah, no one does it sumo though.

Do they? No one at that level. No one that does it properly. No one that lifts properly does it sumo. There's no drug testing. There are allowed to use straps. They can use bendy bars and big plates, but sumo deadlift,

and that is how to leave off the cards. How dare you put your feet there, you cheating. Did you see the Eddie Hall versus Thor fight that was going to go ahead and then Eddie Tories? It snapped his bicep, yeah, fight. They were going to have a boxing match in Vegas. Soon? The end of this month? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was a big, big scene, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a, Castro, also technically ex-Army or Marine, but not quite in the same sort of physical

universe. You must have seen the dead Castro deadlift video. It takes 33 seconds for him to pick up like 400 pounds. I think that's true. I think that's true. Backed off bridges. I mean, if they're both CrossFit athletes, it's like, you know, it's going to be a bit safer, but I think when you have someone like the two power lifters who are so hyper-specialized in their sport,

and then you make them do something that's really not related, like no doubt they're going to terabyte that. Look at the difference in his weight, man. Look at the difference in how much weight Eddie's lost. It's crazy. He's regularly doing these transformation photos, because there's obviously basically an unlimited amount

of footage of him on this permabulk, where he's a sphere. He's like 190 kilos or something like that. Yeah, he looks like a snowman. Looks like a snowman with legs. Do you remember when people started drinking those green tea because Eddie Hall said he had it like between meals? As part of his like, he was dying. He was like, it was like grapefruit juice or something. Something really irrelevant that what, what did Greg Glassman say that caused him to get in trouble?

It was Floyd 19, that's what he referred to the virus as. Ah, that was it. Floyd 19. Oh, really? Yeah, they did post out a black square. This is a year and a bit ago. So for anyone that doesn't know, the ex owner CEO of CrossFit HQ

was basically kicked out of his own company for not saying the right things and then for posting some stuff online. And then there'd been a, I guess some rumblings behind the scenes that he'd done things that people weren't happy with. He'd said other stuff that they felt was inappropriate in meetings. And then he was ejected from his own company and now there's a new director. Just like every white racist granddad. Yeah, they lost like they lost the Reebok sponsorship. Just like every white racist granddad. Yeah. They lost the Reebok sponsorship. No, that was already lapsed.

Oh, really? Yeah, that was already lapsed, so that was already going to happen. Right. And to be fair, Nobel make awful clothes, the new sponsors of CrossFit. They make terrible clothes, but they do make quite nice videos for social media, so. Spings and bars. I'm the barbie. Yeah, I know.

What's... You're on a new rotation, Dr. In, what you're doing now, Seth? I am on pediatrics. So... Didn't someone... Someone... Didn't someone once, like some readers of the sun or something once throw bricks through a pediatric doctor's window

because they thought it was something else? Yeah, so this is an interesting kind of north south thing. I spoke to someone the other day who was like, so he's a registrar and he's a surgical registrar and he was like, oh yeah, I was thinking of doing peeds because like it's the kind of thing that like you say in a bar and women love it and they're like, oh that's what I was like, really? It was like, yeah, down south, like in the north they just go, peeds,ed, so you're a pido and you're like, no. Like, so there's maybe a difference in understanding and perception.

What's it like dealing with little kids? It's just chaos, because you, like, with an adult patient, like, you can ask them a question, they'll like, can I have your hand please, or feel your pulse, whatever, with a kid, like, they're upset, because they're ill, and they're screaming, and sometimes you're like, chasing them around, and you have to like, can I have your hand please or feel your pulse, whatever, with a kid like they're upset because they're ill and they're screaming and sometimes you're like chasing them around and you have to like look in their tonsils with a with a big like wooden stick and to try and do that when they're like biting onto it and kicking away and stuff, you just it's just

a bit of an uphill battle so you have to be a lot more opportunistic and kind of play with them a bit and, you know, just examine what you can while they're still allowing you to. And anything that's like, you know, checking the tonsils, that's going to make them cry or gag, because you have to leave that until the end. You can't just... God. Now, it reminds me of our friend Julian who was teaching English in China and it was like reception level kids, so like four years old and three and they gave him no prep. They just said,

right, here's a plastic watermelon and a plastic fish off you go, you've got them all day. And he's like, right, okay, just came into the room and just go, eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee have their playtime taken away from them, but they sort of slowly introduce it. So they wean them off the playtime thing and they gently say, okay, so we need to sit down on the carpet, on the carpet for 15 minutes, and then you can have a little bit of a play area outside and often sort of play and school start to intermingle. But it is weird when you think like if you've done something for five years of your life, 100% of your life and also five years. And then someone came in and said, that particular modus operandi, like someone came into you and said, Johnny, you're no longer allowed to use Omnifocus. Like you've used it for five years and the central core tenet of your life has now been taken away. You'd be like, I'm sad about this. So yeah, they have to fight quite hard,

I think. Well, the Swedes do, so they just don't do school until seven, do they? And then they outperform the rest of the rest of us. Why do you think that? So supposedly that the first seven years, they just let them play and be kids, rather than try and like sit them down and make them learn handwriting and stuff. And then by the time they're seven, they're like, oh, I had enough play time. Now I'll make that football.

Serious work, yeah. There's also the thing of like school start time, that was an unusual while ago. I was like, they start school too early and kids should be allowed to like get more sleep and that would like shorter hours at school but more sleep and more rest would accelerate performance. It's just one of those things. It doesn't get changed.

Some college in America had managed to reduce road traffic accidents by 25% simply by starting college an hour later because all of these students were going to bed, going to bed too late, waking up tired and then crashing their cars. I've got quite a controversial opinion, which I'm sure you two would agree with this, which is that, you know, a while ago, there was this big thing about offices being sexist because they are set at the temperature that men are comfortable at, but women are too cold. Okay. Saying that because men's base temperature is slightly higher. And, uh, I mean, yeah, like that makes sense. It's man-centric environment if they've set it around that, but you can't get cold easily, but you can just wear a jumper if you're, it's sorry,

if you're too hot, you can't, like, cool yourself down as easily, yeah. Well, it becomes inappropriate very quickly, doesn't it? Well, that's it. There's only so many clothes you can take off until it's problematic. Yeah, it's just generally, generally, a bit of a minefield, isn't it? Well, I don't know, man, like making everything, this is something I brought up on GB News and Andrew Doyle show this weekend. Or it's the same, like, every situation that occurs is framed as if it's a small manifestation of some underlying huge conspiracy that's going on. It's never just, so this, this primith shooting that's happened this weekend is a perfect example. And you have this guy who has posted some stuff online and said that he's sort of feels

he's unattractive to women and kind of on his own. And this has been taken as an individual who has been adopted, like a terrorist group, by the in-cell community, and this is a manifestation of a cis heteronormative patriarchal construct that now is trying to run rampant around the world. And he like, well, you're taking away from it the individual's agency here. Like his mother had contacted the NHS

for months and months apparently, saying that he was quite a troubled young guy and that they thought he had ADHD and was somewhere on the spectrum and you think, okay, like all of this, everybody's life is so idiosyncratic and peculiar. How can you say that it's due to some underlying conspiracy that all men are a part of or all women are a part of or all trans people are a part of? It's not, it's just individuals doing things. It's chicken egg. You've all seen the family guy color chart thing. That's kind of got meamed for a while where it's like a picture of Peter Griffin wearing a fairs and it's like on the top it's like the light color skin shades and it says like

nice guy with mental health problems and then it gets darker and darker and it's a terrorist. a nice guy with mental health problems and then it gets darker and darker and it's a terrorist. And it's kind of that that's kind of what they've done that of course if there is a online group of people with toxic thoughts and behaviors, of course somebody who is maladaptive, maladjusted and is looking for meaning and some kind of group identity, of course they're going to gravitate to that, or if they're going to join ISIS or whatever, like it's the nearest local cultural group that you can say, yes, I resonate with that. As to whether the group caused the behaviour or the behaviour just found the group and said, yes, that's convenient for me. That's more difficult to tell. It's whether,'s whether if the community hadn't existed,

would the situation have occurred? Like if the person was still as they were with the same underlying conditions, is the idea of the act given to them? And they're just more receptive to it than the average person. So I read an article from Nama Kates who has been researching the Insel community for years. So for anyone that doesn't know about this,

there's a guy called Steven Davidson and yeah, Davidson 22 shot six people, including a three year old and a father, and then shot his mom and himself. And this lady who's done a ton of research said, it's striking just how inaccurate and irresponsible some of the commentary by self-appointed in-sell experts has been made in recent days. Take the claim made in the Guardian a day after the tragedy that in-sells actively recruit young men, recalling the tactics used by extremist

groups such as ISIS, I've spoken to dozens of in-sells from my research and not one of them has suggested this happened. Overwhelmingly, these young men find the content on their own, which isn't difficult to imagine for young people with internet access, that is not to minimise the potentially toxic effect of a fatalistic misogynistic echo chamber in which misery and failure are celebrated, or to deny the possibility that some very vulnerable individuals with a predisposition towards violence might come across their community and use it to ascribe their vengeance to a great purpose. The murder of 10 people by Elliot Roger in 2014 demonstrated this as possible, but the

coverage thus far has focused on the in-sale angle to the exclusion of everything else and at times cherry-picked details in a way that feels intellectually dishonest. For if we're going to look at the case of Jake Davison, honestly, we're going to have to look at the whole picture. Don't lose sight on the perpetrator and instead blame the entire group. Jake Davidson, not Stephen Davidson. Very nicely put. Yeah, exactly that.

So it's the echo chamber. It's the algorithms, it's your search behavior that like if you didn't have those tendencies, you wouldn't be searching for those groups. You wouldn't be finding meaning in those kind of communities. So, it's how do you pick that apart? There's a really good BBC documentary about in-sales. I think they took it down from YouTube.

I don't know if it's still available. And they find like four or five guys who all identify as in-sales, but they have different kind of angles and personalities and they follow them through. One of them is very kind of down on himself and has low self esteem, but doesn't seem to have much hatred towards women and he's like, oh well I'm gonna try and do looks max, which is some kind of like in-cell approach of like, how do I take it like except that I am a ugly guy with nothing going for me But how can I like maximize what I've got?

So he starts lifting weights and taking steroids and like and then there's someone else who's just like a dog And in a bit of a self-identified dog. He's like, oh well like women aren't interested in me and I'm just gonna accept that and live my life. Then there's another guy who catfishes people, like he really hates women and he sets up, he spends his time like setting up fake profiles on Tinder and plenty of fish and stuff, setting up dates with women using like a picture of like a male model at McDonald's and then he goes in when they're sat waiting for him. Yeah, you told me that before. He's like, are you a slut? Like if it it was really me, then you wouldn't, you would never go out on a date with me, but it's only because it was a model. And the interview is like, do you think that perhaps the reason that women don't want to go on a date with

you is maybe related to your attitude rather than how you look? It's like, no, man, it's my jawline. It's my, like, whatever. I didn't know, so I'm going to play like the, I'm going to play the person who doesn't know what's going on in this conversation. So I didn't know much about in cell pre-U, like mentioning what we might talk about. So it stands for involuntarily celibate, right? Or like that's the thing that just immediately strikes me as strange when people say like I identify as this is the first word is involuntarily. So like, something's happening to somebody

and they say, oh, well, now I'm going to identify as this. So presumably the culture and a lot of the, like the documentaries and the stuff that is discussed about these people is not simply due to the fact that they are involuntarily celibate. It's the fact that there's a community that's developed as a result of that where people are then doing things that are not related to that situation that are worse.

They're bound together with this fatalistic narrative. I mean, you could say in other areas of life people do this too, there's a death community. People didn't choose being death. The difference is that you have far more control over whether or not you sleep with a woman about than whether you get your hearing back. And this is a, I suppose, there's a lot going on here, but first off, you can splinter an entire group, the in-sell community, even that down into so many different layers as you've just identified there. And I think that this Jake Davison guy actually posted on Reddit saying that he disagreed with most of the stuff he was seeing in some of these sort of men's forums

because he found it quite toxic and not very helpful. There's even a subculture of fake cells within the in-cell community. And these are people who actively try to improve themselves. So there's an active disagreement with the personal development and self-growth world, because that's seen as being a traitor to the in-sell movement. You should accept your fate and you should become one of us. And this is where you get these awful...

Great attitude. Yeah, but you also see, on the flip side of this, there's these entire apartment blocks in China where single men who can't get a wife live. So because single child policy plus Chinese families wanted to have boys rather than girls when it came to having their one child, what you've got is these these huge swaths of men who literally can't find women, but as you have... What a consequence of that. I wouldn't have even thought that, yeah, like in 20 years you're creating like, yes,

okay, you've got a son, big whoop, but now in 20 years he's never going to be able to find a wife because there will be literally no women around. Correct. Unless you give birth to a child, you're wrecked. And the other side of this, I mean, so that's obviously something that's happened because of a gender imbalance, but there's definitely an attraction imbalance as you have women that are able to be more educated, richer, and higher status. You have to presume that the fundamentals of attraction are that a man needs to be,

in my opinion, like three or four out of taller, richer, better educated, and more status. You can have a short man that is smart, rich, and well educated, and you can split it together in other ways as well, but you're going to really struggle if you only have two of those four. If the woman is both taller and smarter than the man, the attraction is very difficult because there is inherently inbuilt into women and attraction towards status, resources, this level of dominance. And also it changes the dynamic of the relationship if she's the breadwinner. That's not to say that it doesn't work, but that it is more difficult.

It's like being the tall girl friend, like very few women date men that are smaller than them. That means that if you're six foot one, you're looking at pro athletes, you're reducing down your own dating pool by having that. So yeah, it's not the same as selective breeding over in China, but you can see how there is a increasingly small dating pool for women that are high achievers. And there's more women become high achievers, there is a greater number of men at the bottom of that list who aren't really appropriate mates. So that's an interesting point, and actually a lot of those characteristics you've mentioned there are modifiable, you know, like height is non-modifiable,

but a lot of the other ones, you can, you know, through the self-improvement, through socialization, all these kind of things, you can improve them. Now, the attitude that you described there, if like, no, we need to accept our fate, we're not allowed to improve, because we're all in this mud together or whatever, that is, it's a weirdly toxic version of the kind of flip side of it, which is we're all worthy of love as we are, and we don't need to, you know, we are inherently valuable as humans and all that. But it's, so it's that seem through a toxic eye, which is that like I shouldn't have to improve myself to be worthy of female company and I shouldn't have to do this to think it's even more than that.

And that it's that even if I did, it still wouldn't make a difference. So it's almost, they've given up as apatotl fatalistic approach yet. And I think that it's a wonderful way to bind everybody together because if somebody tries to drag themselves out of the mud, you have the crabs that cling on from the bottom of the bucket. It's the crab mentality. But the whole point is that if you don't bring anything to the table, then how can you expect anyone to be interested? It's like the opposite of the self-improve, self-development world, right? If I just identify with a group of people who say, well,

we're fucked, regardless, then it's a mission to not try and change the situation. As far as you were saying, you said, if like three of the four were modifiable or improbable, if that's the framework you're playing in, then just improve those things. I think it's more important for me to just get taller. It's not like, it takes some growth. I think that admitting that there's a potential for hope

can be quite painful, whereas just relinquishing any hope is the easiest way. That's why when people have missing children, a lot of the time, they would actually probably after 10 years or 20 years, they would soon find out that they were dead and continue going on with that open loop, because they just want to close off that situation. By closing off the potential for improvement, you actually think, well, there's no hope. At least now I know what to expect. I can predict what happens in the future

and it's more misery and aloneness. Well, the definition at the top of Google says that it's just a blaming women for a lack of sexual activity. So by very definition, it's like failing to accept responsibility for the situation. And if you have hope,, it's like failing to accept responsibility for the situation. And if you have hope, then it's like, well, I have to change somebody else. I have to change other people in order for this to improve, rather than, well, I can just

change myself and that being said, women are the sexual gatekeepers and men are the sexual protagonists. So a couple of suggestions would be, go gay. That no one says no in the gay. Turn gay. Just turn gay. Like, gay men have loads more sex. But I mean, deep, okay, I realized that's a tongue

in cheek suggestion, but to do that, I'm a pun. Do you think that that would be an effective solution? Well, that implies that like, you can just alter your preferences. Are you saying, Johnny, that some people may not just be able to alter their preferences, like a fashion choice? No, I said it is seamless.

I didn't say this. It can't be done. Well, so something I would recommend for background of anyone listening is have a look at some of the like Insel subreddits. In fact, it might have even been A bunch of them because a bunch of them have been removed But you see if you go to our slash men's rights, there's Sort of echoes of that

Yeah, there's little echoes of it So you're encouraging people to type into Google something that is a fairly extremist, even term, that is then going to feed more of that sort of information back to that person. Well, Reddit isn't optimized in that way. So Reddit's actually quite safe like that. But it's a few glades. Yeah, fair point.

Fair point. So just type it into your browser and then search within Reddit. Yeah. But it's, yeah, it's worth having a look and seeing that we're not caricaturing the viewpoints here. Like it is very much the tone in what they're saying. Yeah, scary stuff. And they kind of revere. Is it, would you say, Elliot Rogers? Yeah, they hold him up as like a... Profit. Yeah, correct. Yeah, they literally say, there was this

screenshot of a guy who did a shooting in America and just beforehand, he was talking about how, like, all hail our hero, Elliot Roger or Mr. Roger or something like that referring to that. So yeah, you do get this. It's so insular, man. And it's difficult. It is difficult, right? Because you have the bottom 80% of men are competing for the bottom 20% of women on Tinder and the top 80% of women are competing for the top 20% of men.

So like this imbalance, this high-gamous imbalance that you have in attraction, it does lead to men that can't get a date and women that struggle to find a man that they're attracted to. Like this is just, this is one of the challenges. You were saying that these sub-renates have been closed, sort of, that do you think that this all like moved towards a world

where like predictive algorithms will be able to forecast this kind of violent behaviour that comes off the back of these subcures? Oh, in fact, speaking of which, how do you feel about Apple's new move, have you heard about this, that they are now doing server side scanning of your images to see if it matches with any child abuse images and then reporting it to the authorities. And I think it's been under fire, not only because Apple have now stepped in from being private company to law enforcer, which is arguably outside of their remit, that counter-argument is, well, if you're holding on our servers, it's our business to make sure that you've not put dodgy stuff on our servers. But it's more

that it's a slippery slope potentially for, well, if you have the technology in place, you could very much change the database of stuff that you're checking it against to anything that the local government doesn't like. I think the biggest problem with it is like, well firstly, it feels slightly hypocritical that a lot of the changes in iOS 14 where we don't trust Google, Facebook, or any of these other big companies to manage your data.

So we're gonna allow you to say, well, no, they can't do that. But we can't, aside from no longer using an Apple device, we can't opt out of this. And I know like the source reason is right. Like it's a valid reason of what I think. It's a very clever valid reason because it's like, oh, you're not in favor of this. That must mean that your probe child abuse then. It's. Yeah.

The like coming from a like constantly surfing the edge of the algorithms of these these big companies from an advertising perspective. Like the number of things that they when an algorithm is trying to make a decision, the number of like false positives, it spots in something. That's what's most worried. When it's like it's up to something that just scanners photo library. And if it's see something that it it deems to be illegal, even if it's completely not illegal, it can be a report to the authorities and you've just got to deal with the backlash. Didn't you say that it gets passed up to a human operator that's going to check first?

Supposedly, but then the same thing applies with I-message, but it doesn't go to a... I think it just goes straight to... So within I-message, if you have an I iCloud account that's registered as under 12 or under 16 and you send like a picture that could be seen, it could be picked up by the neural network as a naked picture, it'll blur out the picture for the recipient and it'll inform the family of the sender. You are kidding me. So if you send a nude at 16 years old,

it might be 12 or 13. Okay. But yeah, the point stands that it will tell you family. So the risk there is that it could be apples, it could be the blood on Apple's hands. If let's say it's a Pakistani gay 12 or 13 year old who's family do an oner killing because they've been informed that they've sent a nude. That's a scary potential. As soon as you change yourself from being a communicator to being a police officer, everything that you have to try and plug an awful lot of holes in the bottom of the boat and doing

them individually on a case-by-case basis, like this, like I never thought of that. The equivalent would be probably if you were in an orthodox Jewish community and they found out that you were homosexual, that's it. You're out of, I mean you're not dead, but you're never going to be allowed back into that community again. It's the other side of it is it's placing a lot of emphasis on like the algorithm spotting these things. So it needs one instance of it. Like what is positive? Well, positive or like maybe it identifies differently with like skin tone, skin color, like lots of different things. And suddenly one instance isn't picked up and something happens off the back of it. Like it just needs one failure for the whole thing to be to fall apart. So it's got to, if they're going to say like this is what we're doing,

it needs a 100% copyright. We were doing fine without it. Like, it's a bit, I think it could. So like, I don't know how you two feel about it, but I think even though obviously I'm not, I'm not worried about them seeing something illegal in my photos. Like I don't really like the idea of it. It's an invasion thing, isn't it?

Like, they're going to read and look at everything on my phone. So this sad thing is, they already have this capacity. It's just that they haven't turned it on. And it's us becoming aware of the fact that they can do it. The same is when people said, I can't believe that my Alexa's been recording things. How the fuck do you think it knows when you say, hey Alexa, like, what do you think it was doing? Like, it's constantly listening.

The only difference is the fact that they've recorded it and saved it somewhere. So like, part of the incredulity that comes with it is just like, look, presumed that all tech companies have all access to everything that you do, and they simply haven't decided to flip the switch to be able to look at it. Yeah. And all a good way of looking at it. If you say, okay, I have purchased a device that has a built-in microphone and camera and voice recognition and transcription capability

and uploading capacity with very high speed and all these features, this device does that. You'd be like, well, what could it potentially do if I didn't want it to? So I think the difference here is, Apple openly saying, we are going to report this information to the authorities, isn't it? I already feel like everything I type into WhatsApp or every Gmail email or every Facebook messenger conversation or whatever is read by something, but at least they don't, they don't publicly say if you say this word, you're going to have some consequence to deal with that like we're not going to be involved in, we're just going to pass your information on and if we're right or whatever then that's what you need to deal with. That actually has given rise to the theory that Apple, that it wasn't really Apple's decision,

because from a profit perspective, I'm not sure why they would launch something like this. And so some people have claimed that it could be Apple have been strong armed by some government to say, like, oh, you need to launch this and subject to a gag order. It just feels like the other thing they doing in iOS 15 is the removing like the ability for companies like ConvertKit and Active Campaign, and all these things to say that someone's opened an email, right? Which like is arguably really damaging all these businesses that don't have ill intent, at least as far as I know, right? So, there'll have to be the reason

for protecting people from knowing whether I know any emails being open. It's a privacy thing, right? The whole thing's a privacy thing. So, like, you can now say that Facebook, Google, all these other third party companies can't track you on iOS 14, and you're not gonna be able to say that you can create single use, which is use of stream,

you can rate like single instance email addresses within within Apple. you can create single use, which is use of stream, you can rate like single instance email addresses within, within Apple. So that you just someone receives a promo email once and then you're not on an email list, which affects so many businesses, right? And it's all in the name of privacy. But at the same time, they're saying,

we're gonna look at all your photos. It just doesn't like, I know that the agendas are different behind the two decisions, but it feels very hypocritical. Like, well, we own the hardware, so we have one set of rules, but everybody else. It's like difficult to take this sort of pure written talking point about safety and security and you can own your own data, whilst at the same time doing something that's completely analogs.

Have you been looking at this Afghanistan situation? Because I tweeted yesterday saying, I don't really know what, people complaining about the fact that we've pulled out should we have never been there in the first place? Is there an argument that we should have left troops on site that I think 400 and 400 and something British troops have been killed there since we landed? And there's everybody seems to have an opinion and nobody seems to have a solution. We're operating on incomplete information as well. I think many of the big global events over the last 30 years, there's always going to be partial information that's not public

and maybe is leaked and released over the next 20 or 30 years by the time it's irrelevant. But yeah, it seems like a kind of, I suppose you have to pull a stop-loss at some point and say, you know what, we can't help with this. But then the consequences that as soon as you do, there's this big like a dam breaks and everything floods back. And we're seeing that in the photos that the one you sent before of like people sat

on the wing of an airplane or like the traffic jams or climbing up into the airport. Dude, I can't remember the name of the plane. It's an American military plane like a C-60 or something like a big, just it's a hangar. It's a huge lorry out the back with nothing in it. And they managed to fit 800 people into one of these compartments out the back. It looked Ryanair style. Yeah, it's still better quality than Ryanair. Yeah, and then I saw a video of a plane moving down the runway. It didn't look like it was about to take off speed, but there was people holding on to the wings.

While it's taking off. I don't know if it was it. It wasn't at take off speed and there was a lot of people running in front of it. Surely you'd die. Sure. You're not lasting. You're not lasting. I think I was on. Yeah.

Well, you'd have to have really good, why if you use straps, because Johnny reckons it straps it's cheating. We need a strap that went around the wing. Yeah, I think it's one of those little... I think they'd run into like oxygen, altitude problems, Yeah, temperature. And like, you need a lot of chalk. You would need a lot of chalk to get to get maybe even a belt to be honest to get.

I think the dull with all these leaves. Yeah, it'll be the guy with me sleeves who stays on. Everyone else will like, did you see? I should have brought my sleep. I swear it was Biden that tweeted a couple of months ago saying this will not be a last chopper out of Saigon moment and someone's quote tweeted it with a photo of a helicopter landing on the top of the US Embassy in the middle of Afghanistan to pick some people up and take them away. Yeah, I mean, it looks fairly horrendous, doesn't it? Every image, everything that's coming out of it. But as ESA says, how do you form an opinion on something one?

You already see the headlines, you see the filtered view of it, don't you? Johnny, are you saying that the internet is supposed to take their time and fully research a problem before they actually decide to commit to making a comment about it. Don't be ridiculous. I know. How dare I? Every time you say, are you saying, oh my god, it's going to cut the human me.

I watch the snippet of your interview on the news, where there was the segment I saw involved a lot of, are you saying, thrown in your direction? Correct. Sort of like leading up the circle. Yeah, that was Andrew. Andrew is trying to stitch me up so I'm passing the parcel onto you today. Yeah. He, um, they brought up as well on that about the SNP and structing schools that children should be able to decide their gender without parental consent and that a teacher must comply with that child's wish. Children as young as four can change their names and gender at school without parental

consent. Teenagers of opposite sexes can share rooms on residential trips. Likewise, for those who identify something else can share a room with others who identify differently. Gender neutral toilets and the SNP have become subccessed with trans rights that safeguarding is now a nightmare. I mean, my business partner's kids often identify as astronauts in the morning and then train drivers in the afternoon and rocket man before dinner. So that's it, isn't it? It's like, I mean, I can't really remember being that age, but I can't remember being like 17 and still not really feeling that like I would trust a 17 year old version of me to make permanent decision. Any decision.

Yeah. So I think if there's no, if you can just do whatever you want at that age and there's no like guidelines or guardrails, if there's permanent consequences, it's maybe a little bit unfair. I think I'll... Yeah, Rae Dalyo talks about this where the permanence of a decision is proportional to how long you should spend on it and how reversible the decision is. But again, it's this balance between someone's right to gender expression and the potential for that right to be exploited

by characters who want to and there isn't an easy solution like the was that not that guy who went to prison for some kind of series of sexual assaults or rapes or something. And then he said I want to go in the women's prison and then he just continued offended. I don't know if I was a woman and then moved across. I mean, I don't think that that's a rare story anymore. Obviously, children, this isn't a permanent consequence. To steal manly other side, it's not a permanent consequence to change their gender expression

or to change their name and do things like that. But at four years old, allowing the child to do anything. If the child was late to school, the parents would probably be told, but changing their gender expression and their name. And it's like, I think one of the concerns that some people have is that it indulges and perhaps actually encourages in children something which at that age is so confusing and maladaptive that it can put them down paths that's a little bit difficult.

So Andrew Doyle talks a lot. He's a gay man and he talked about the fact that he didn't do sports, he didn't do football at school. I think he maybe even did sort of dance or ballet or something and he was really into acting. Like he would have absolutely been classed as probably a future female under this particular sort of worldview. And it is kind of a rehabilitated homosexual hatred

in a way that some of it is that a butch girl or a female as like a girly bloke, that these can't be seen as someone that might actually be homosexual. It's like, no, you're heterosexual, but in the wrong body. Yeah, but there's not much downside. I mean, if they're four years old, you say, do you want to stay with the girls or stay with the boys? I think there's not too much of a potential risk. I think when it's 13, 14, like potentially more of a risk in terms of like sexual age,

but then at four, like, you know, there's an argument to say, like let them experiment, let them do what they want. Because if you say to a four-year-old kid, do you want a dinosaur for breakfast? Yeah. Yeah, I do. But then equally, as you say, if there's a permanent thing, do you want to shoot the teacher? Yes, obviously you don't mean it, but if you allowed them to carry that out, then a few years later they'll be like, I wish you hadn't let me shoot that teacher. But if there's a difference between posing the question to them and allowing it to naturally

arise, and I think like, as you say, if you say, do you want to do this at four years old, you maybe just don't have the information or the life experience to evaluate that decision. So you might just say yes or no. Like it's hard to know, I can't remember what it's like to be full. I don't imagine very many people can. But yeah, like if something naturally arises and like that's a request, I think it's that to me anyway

feels different to- What about not telling the parents? As if they ask them, do you want to do this or not? So they say, yes, I'm boy, a boy comes into school and says, I want to be referred to as Rebecca. I'm now a girl. And they do not tell the parents that this is something that's happening. I mean, if you can imagine if that was your child that was going into school and you find out that for six months, your child had been living a four year old kid or a five year old kid had been living a four-year-old kid or a five-year-old kid had been living

a double life. Well, it's fine because you'd find out because Apple would tell you. LAUGHTER Getting notification from... Harmony, parental control. The school would try not to pass the information on to it. They'd have no choice. Because you're Alexa, the Google HomePod would have been listening

in and would have sent an alert that your child had changed that iCloud name Yeah, Google won't know like Google won't be able to see a search history, but Apple will just send a text to the parents So it's not the end of that fine, but yeah, it seems like a Yeah I would want to know as the parent But I guess like it depends on Presumably right? know as the parent, but I guess it depends on... Do you know the right person who is a parent? It feels like the natural answer to that is yes, I suppose.

Because the metric that they use in medicine, if you have say a 13-year-old girl who's saying I'm sexually active, and whether you inform the parents or not, if you have to make a decision as to whether they are Gillick competent, which is based on an old legal case of, you know, Gillick versus whatever. And it is this person, despite the fact that they are below the age of consent, do they still have the necessary ability to weigh up the consequences of their decision. Recon agency almost free will. Yeah. But you would, you know, you would want to, I mean, again, this is assuming that like, there's the right intentions there and the, the

definitions received well, that like you would want to provide the relevant support as a parent to that person and to, to not have the information and to go on assuming that that's not happening. I think it takes something off the parents to be able to support the child correctly. But you're the guardian, right? There's one that's supposed to be the caregiver, you're liable for whether or not. I mean, people look at fat kids and blame it on the parents for feeding them the wrong food. The only reason that, like, if your children were able to get fat and physically not show it, and you could be culpable for the fact that internally they were getting really, really fat, like this gatekeeping community, gatekeeping information from the parents about something

which is absolutely crucial to the child's wellbeing. Like, I don't know. Again, it kind of comes back to this intersecting ideologies thing here that you have certain parts of certain world views that just don't agree with each other. And given the fact that the LGBT community, I think it wouldn't surprise me if you're going to see more challenges up against parenting because you're going to have a lower proportion of parents represented within that community. And you think, well, I mean, where do you go from that?

It's a real challenge. And, yeah, and you know, you've made a comparison of being secretly fat. And I realize I'm also conflating sexual preference with gender preference and they're not the same. And, you know, there's different ages at which that becomes the parents problem and the child's problem and so on. So it is just a very difficult one to navigate. And I don't think you can really set like a, you know, between this age and this age,

because it does just depend on consent and what the relationship is and whether someone has the capacity to make a decision about themselves. Should Apple be reporting, reporting potentially dangerous search history of children to their parents? Ooh, like themselves. Type stuff. For example, yeah, like linking out,

I suppose linking together what we've just been talking about. If the parent is supposed to be the guardian of encouraging the right of the wrong decisions and you see a flag like that. Should that be reported? Again, it's a challenge, man. Like at what point, where does anonymity or where are you guaranteed anonymity and where should it exist? Where should the privacy exist for that?

I mean, I had Seth Stevens-Davidowitz on, who's a date ranalyst, and he'd done all of these different correlations to do with Google search history. And he was able to identify, it was him that was able to find out where COVID cases were going to spike seven days before they did by looking for search, the search history aggregated. So this is totally anonymized. Of what people were looking for, why have I lost my sense of smell, why am I so hot when I sleep at night? And he was able to predict seven days out where the highest cases were. So that was the quickest route to be able to work out what was going on. He was also able to see locations where there were higher rates of suicide based on some

of the search history is like how to deal with depression, what to do if you're feeling suicidal. All of these aggregated searches were correlated with high levels of suicidality within a particular location. It's when the new level, isn't it, where like the captures and they can pick up early signs of Parkinson's from the tremor in your mask. Now, do they report that to the health insurance company? Like, does the insurance company have a right to know

before you do? Do they have the right to even tell you? Because they've diagnosed a problem that you didn't actually go and ask them to. But in one side of that, like it's anonymous data, isn't it? It's trends of search terms by volume in Newcastle versus this person has exhibited this behavior. It's a very different, like I don't mind, I don't mind

my search history being used as ways to like improve things, but if I'm going to experience like because I was a bit shaky with my mouse when I was clicking on the which of these squares have a Shake you with my mouse when I was clicking on the which of these squares have a Have a traffic light in them like and I'm your premium goes up. I mean I'm pretty. Yeah, like I don't know how I feel about that This is the it's weird isn't that because what we're relying on is A level of opaqueness between what the insurance company knows about us and what is actually happening about us And there is a degree of game playing going on here. Like, if you are at risk for Parkinson's or if you have like early Parkinson's, like onset, symptoms, then it's probably quite right that the insurance company is supposed to know about it. The fact that the current level of finesse with

which they can see your entire sort of medical makeup isn't there. I mean, you know, what's the job of the insurance company? Is the job of the insurance company to make premiums based on information that they're given or make premiums based on your health? Have you guys seen or have we discussed coded bias on Netflix? No, but I've had an interview with the guy who did some research for it. Right. You should watch it because it talks about, like, because ultimately the problem here is there is AI processing, this information at large scale and it's like we're relying on fair processing. We're relying on like an algorithm to make a decision that's going to influence

like, can we get a mortgage? Can we get a credit card? What is our insurance costing based on some things that, like, all the way down to how you move your mouse or what you search on Google? And, you know, is it fair for those things? Is it fair for the code to have a bias, basically? And how do you police that if something's just being, if something's happening constantly? How do you, like, should a human being something's happening constantly? How do you like, should a human with emotional bias come in and insert their bias on top of the code

bias? Or like, how do you manage like, it could potentially all be fine or it could potentially all be catastrophic. And I feel like all technology, like all the precipices of technology that we're approaching now are subject to that. Like it could all be great or it could all kill us all. Yeah. And you've got to make a decision based on no information. Just hope for the best. Yeah. I had Stuart Russell on the show, the guy that wrote the book on artificial intelligence and his most recent one, human compatible, is about the control problem. The scariest thing that I learned from that was that the social media content selection algorithms, the ones that literally try to get click throughs and time on site, that's all that they're

bothered about, get people on and keep them on. That's all that they were asked to optimize. So what they want is to be better able to predict the preferences of the users. If they can put content in front of them that they're more likely to click on and more likely to stay on, then it has achieved its goal. There's actually two ways that the algorithm, it would appear, there's two ways the algorithm could achieve that. First one is to become better at predicting what the user's one. The second one is to manipulate the user's preferences to make them more predictable. And it turns out that social media content feed selection algorithms have been doing the second one a lot more. So when everybody says about, oh, you've got this increasing

sort of these extremist views on the internet, everybody's far left, everybody's far right, or everybody's pro this or not that. And this is because of echo chambers. It's because you have these very sort of siloed communities in which people only hear one point of view. Well, yeah, that's part of it. But another part of it is that the algorithms almost have like an email trigger sequence, a several year email trigger sequence that takes somebody that clicks on a thing and then slowly tries to push their preferences. Because if you're out on the extremes, you're a lot more predictable.

If you're in the middle, you can flip left or flip right on different conversations. But if you're out on the extremes, it's very easy to see what's going to annoy you, what's going to make you feel like your views are being confirmed. And yeah, finding out that algorithms were manipulating us rather than manipulating the content was probably the scariest thing I learned from that book. It's interesting, I think people think social media, people think like Instagram and Twitter and Facebook are like that. Now, they're more aware of it.

So they think, well, when I see posts around election time on Facebook, it's kind of clouded by that. But a lot of people, at least people I talk to, think that Google is this kind of fair playing ground where when I search something, I receive the same as everybody else who searches that term and thinks there's no involvement in because like you're literally searching a question a lot of the time right or like you wanted to find some information and it gives you an answer and you're like oh well that's the answer right there's no assumption that well there's bias bias in my search history. What's going to get me to click the ads that I see at the top, the things that I've looked

at or not looked at in the past? Because Google gives you the best answer for you, but that's not necessarily the most true thing that you're... Or the most relevant thing for you, yeah. And for a while, I think before we realized this, we were like, oh, we're ranking really well. If you search, propane anything, we come up on the top page, and then we were like, oh, we're ranking really well. Like if you search propane anything, like we come up on the top page, and then we were like, ah, no, that's just us.

By your own search history of constantly searching for your own stuff to see how highly it's ranking. Yeah, exactly. Whereas, you know, so I was a big fan of Brave Browser. I've recently moved back to Safari just for the seamlessness. But Brave has no... So, yeah, exactly. Just in time to be able to upload all my photos. So brave have their own search engine. Similar to Duck Duck Go, it's their own private search engine and it's similar user interface to Google, similar speed.

So you don't notice that using something different, but the goal exactly that, trying to achieve much more of an objective search result. One of the things that I really loved about Medium when I started using that was that articles appeared based on popularity, not based on relevance, because a lot of the time the search terms that you're putting in are a little bit inaccurate. And I would appreciate a version of Google or a version of a search engine where it was the most popular that were at the top. Now, obviously that can be game as well through Limbic hijack and other sorts of games. But if you were able to crowd source the points of view that were most viewed, that would give you an interesting perspective.

Well, the internet originally was and read it. Yeah. I think Reddit has started to play a bit more of the game now as well, but where you can change the filter. So you can sort by most like most uploaded on top of all time or whatever. So the only problem with something like the Reddit format is that most people will only scroll down to the first first third or fourth page. And so anything that there's a really strong initial bias where if something gets 10 upvotes in the first 20 minutes, it's going to absolutely fly. And so you have to break through the inertia and then the things which are performing really well continue to perform well. So it's getting

the initial traction that's a problem. That's the same thing with Google, right? Like you've heard the phrase, like, I hit it where someone will never find it on the second page of Google. Like no one ever, no one ever scrolls through the first page and go, no, no, I don't think I like any of these. I'm going to live on the second page. Yeah. So like all of the things that do well, continue to do. Matthew, Matthew principles occur everywhere But you see this with YouTube too, right? Like 80% of your plays will come from the 20% top 20% of your videos that you have on your channel. Or maybe even more.

In fact, I would say YouTube is the most algorithmically manipulated platform of them all. Like it's so, but the price that you pay in terms of it being so manipulated, you benefit in the fact that I don't have any other social media where my feed is so right for me. There is always like so, so much to put on you. Three or four things that I want to watch.

You could spend an entire day just watching the next related, you know, the top related video, next recommendation. You could just do that all day. It's, I'm, I'm so long YouTube, I just think it's brilliant. If you think go back like five, six years in the quality of YouTube content, and now it is TV quality production, I would soon go to YouTube and Netflix to be honest to find something interesting.

Have you gone premium yet? I haven't. Oh, come on. I'm trapped in the propane accounts. I mean, you have some infrastructure, but you can just pay for it. You can just pay for it. And then you'll both get to use premium. Okay. 79 p. 79 p. You do through Argentina. Yeah, you need a VPN.

200. You get such a good solution. Well, I mean, I didn't. I paid full price for it. It's so worth it. Anyone that hasn't gone YouTube premium, think about how much you value your time at and you're clicking through two, seven second ad previews every time you want to watch that video. I mean, the part of that for me is I like to see, I watch the ads I watch people are doing

Every time pretty much yeah, wow because you can infer like the targeting that somebody's using you can see the ad creative the The click the landing page so you listening to a master of his craft you gotta take you gotta take part in the game If you want to I want to benefit from the game. I'm going to, I'm going to let them play around with these. I really respect that, Johnny, like you're, you're very morally consistent with the way that you see paid advertising. I just think like, I don't want to use an ad blocker. I don't, like, I opt into everything on iOS 14. You know the people who complain about tracking and then can play it. You want more tracking. They complain about irrelevant posts on Instagram. You're an idiot? You opted out, what do you think they're going to do?

It's going to get worse and worse over time. You're still going to get ads. You're not turning the ads off. You're just turning off relevant ads. You're all ads. Yeah. Remember when we were watching a currentman, where we were, maybe in my house, watching something on TV on YouTube and this was before I had YouTube premium and I came up and you said,

these fucking idiots here. What do they think they're doing? Everybody knows that you shouldn't. What do you should deselect? Deselect TV is a placement, yeah. Yeah, because no one's going to click through on TV. You can see, so if you're hoping to save the night on YouTube, like the same ad, like five times in a week, that is a big no, no, like there should be an impression cap. So you can always spot the, you can spot the noobs. Oh, my love. no, like there should be an impression cap. So you can always spot the, you can spot the noobs. I saw a video the other day about there, how much they've spent on. So, you speak to anybody who like what's a hundred years of their, they look, they look seen a gramma liad and then think about that, think about the number of impressions they've served.

Absolutely. How much they spent. It's in, I can't remember the number, but it is astronomical. Do you, do you, do you either have Grammily? No. I don't either. Do you know anyone that does? No. Interesting. What, what is it?

I like they just check your grammar on like any, I think on a browser. Anything you type into a browser. So it takes all the data that you type. It sends it down to Apple. It reads it. And then charges you money for that privilege. And then goes, oh, you could have put a comma there. Oh, thanks. Yeah, great.

Yeah. Easy to tell. No. Gentlemen, thank you very much for joining me. If people want to find out what you've got coming up soon with ProPaint Fitness and ProPaint Business, where should they go? ProPaintFitness.com forward slash modern wisdom.

Modern. That's for people who want to learn how we do what we do. So if you want to build an online fitness business or an online business of any kind yourself, that's best place to go. If you just want some macros for open fitness.com, and then just use the calculator on the main page. And if you want to see what we're up to, youtube.com forward slash propane fitness, we are going

balls in on YouTube at the moment and pumping out some fun stuff. I love it. Cheers boys. Thank you. See you. See ya.