Modern Wisdom - #363 - Naama Kates - Investigating The Incel Community

Episode Date: August 26, 2021

Naama Kates is a writer, producer and creator of the Incel Podcast. The world of involuntary celibates continues to be thrust into the public limelight with incidents in the United States and most recently in the UK with Jake Davison's shooting in Plymouth. Naama has spent years investigating incels so I figured she would be a good place to go to understand what's happening. Expect to learn whether the incel community is a terrorist organisation, why the incel culture can trap members inside of it, how the incels relate to the Mens Rights Movement, the problems associated with driving these communities underground and much more... Sponsors: Get 40% discount on everything from boohooMAN at https://bit.ly/manwisdom (use code MW40) Get 10% discount on your first month from BetterHelp at https://betterhelp.com/modernwisdom (discount automatically applied) Extra Stuff: Follow Naama on Twitter - https://twitter.com/naamakates Check out Naama's Incel Podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/incel/id1469915971 Naama's Unherd article - https://unherd.com/2021/08/what-the-media-gets-wrong-about-incels/  Get my free Reading List of 100 books to read before you die → https://chriswillx.com/books/ To support me on Patreon (thank you): https://www.patreon.com/modernwisdom - Get in touch. Join the discussion with me and other like minded listeners in the episode comments on the MW YouTube Channel or message me... Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/ModernWisdomPodcast Email: https://chriswillx.com/contact/  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hi friends, welcome back to the show. Before we get into today's episode, you may notice something slightly different about my voice, and that is because I managed to lose it for almost a full week now. Apparently there are other illnesses out there than COVID, and this one decided that the only thing it was going to do would be remove my ability to speak, which is unfortunate given what I spend most of my time doing. So I've rearranged a bunch of podcasts and I've rescheduled stuff. However, it's got to the point where I actually need to record intros and the choices between not putting episodes out and doing pre-roll intros sounding like Joanna Lumley or someone very horsey that's trying to seduce you.

So sorry, you're going to have to put up with this slightly sort of wispy old man voice today. I do feel fine, other than the weird sounds that are emanating from my face, I do actually feel okay, so don't fret, but yes, you are gonna have to put up with this for a little while. On to today's guest, I'm joined by Nama Kate,

who is a writer, producer, and creator of the Incell podcast. The world of involuntary celibates continues to be thrust into the public limelight, with incidents in the United States and most recently in the UK with Jake Davison's shooting in Plymouth. Nama has spent years investigating Incells, so I figured she would be a good place to go to understand exactly what's happening. Today, expect to learn whether the Incell community is a terrorist organization. Why the Incell culture can trap members inside of it?

How Incells relate to the men's rights movement? The problems associated with driving these communities underground, and much more. I really, really enjoyed this episode. It's fascinating to think about what the externalities are of a modern society when it comes to the dating economy, when it comes to being able to offer up support to men that can't find wives. It's one of the key reasons that we exist on this planet to be able to find a partner, but for some reason, the sympathy doesn't seem to extend to men that can't do it. It's only to other marginalized groups. Why 50% of the men that are in these

in-cell communities are non-white and what that means for intersectionality. It's just, it's endlessly interesting and the implications of this I can only really see getting bigger. So yes, enjoy this one. But now, it's time for the wise and wonderful Nama Cates. Nama Cates, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. How did you get into researching insults? I've been asked this many times and I don't have a neat story as to how. Basically, I have a background in media, I'm a filmmaker, written things and acted and music,

everything kind of in that world. And so I was finishing up the film when I started really getting into podcasts just as a medium. And the ones that I liked the most were true crime kind of stuff as you know crawl space. My network is very true crime oriented and I was just listening to a lot of them and I guess kind of having just worked on a film that is very costly and you know, labor intensive, time intensive, planning intensive process, also a visual medium, which I've since realized I'm much less visually oriented than I am in terms of words and sound

and things like that. And yeah, I was just kind of really appreciating the medium medium like storytelling through that form was interesting to me and around the same time I think in cells kind of made their way onto my radar and and then I had a happenstance encounter with one with an in cell I think in 2017 or so and it was just a random social media thing and I started talking to this person and it was just a random social media thing. And I started talking to this person, and it became very interesting. And I asked if we could record our conversations. And he said, fine, and I listened to them back and found them interesting.

And it just seemed like a good topic for a podcast. You know, I looked around for information about it, and there was hardly any at the the time and that's kind of how it started. Well I asked all of Twitter for their suggestions and the two names that came up as like in-select experts were you and James Bloodworth. So you managed to reach the pinnacle of what Twitter thinks an in-select expert is. Yes, I also managed to reach the whatever you would refer to as the bottom of that. Okay, bottom of the barrel land at the top. Yes, that's cool. All right, so how do you define what an insell is? Well, there is the basic definition in voluntary celibate in inel, someone who is involuntarily celibate, categorically, according to the incel community, would just be someone that doesn't have sexual or romantic relationships

despite wanting them. So that's kind of the broadest definition. And there's also like a timeline Limit for some groups. They say you know You have to be a virgin someone say well it has to be six months or more that you're in this Situation that you can say you're in cell otherwise. It's a dry spell or something so so there's that but beyond that is How are we talking about an in cellsell, which is just someone who is that,

whether or not they know it, or someone who recognizes that they are in-sell, that's kind of the second or middle of the road definition. And then the third, I would say, is someone whose identity is who's really kind of made their identity about that and partakes in the online community and the forums and the websites as we all might be coming to know more about them. Well pretty much everyone during lockdown last year probably wasn't in sale unless you don't know how to do your partner, right? Right and everyone who, you know, everyone at some point in their lives probably was on to obviously there's some exceptions to that, you know, everyone at some point in their lives probably was on to,

obviously there's some exceptions to that, but yeah, if you just go by that definition. Okay, so there's Dry Spell, which is a six month period. There's like, Purity Insel, which is someone that hasn't had sex. There's an Insel, which is someone that's aware about the fact that they're sort of struggling with women, and then there's somebody who identifies with the community. So, you've sort of got a bit of hierarchy going on. Yep. Okay, cool.

How do in cells relate to the men's rights movement? Do they at all? Yes, I mean, again, if we're going by the categorical description of an in cell, and by the way, that's, and I don't mean just the categorical description of an in-cell. And by the way, that's, and I don't mean just the categorical description. I mean the one where they're aware of it, but they're not, they don't associate with the community in any way. And I've actually had many people like that on my show, so it's not uncommon. You know, these are people who are in cells and who are aware that they are and aware that a community exists, but they just don't relate to a lot of what they see in there.

It's kind of like a lifestyle, but not an identity. Yeah, or maybe even if it were an identity, once they realized what was associated with it, or what the identity was for most of the people in it, they didn't want anything to do with it. So, the original question, sorry. Men's rights. Men's rights, okay, so yeah, the men's rights, the MRA, men's rights activists, along with in cells, and along with MIGTO, men going their own way,

and PUA, pick up artists, and some other sort of, you know, derivations are make up what's called the manosphere now. And the manosphere is described in various places to be kind of like a male supremacist umbrella of groups that have certain things in common, obviously with a lot of differences between them. There's also a timeline to this. I don't know if you want me to get like too detailed about that because they can be more open. Yeah, it gives us a broad overview. I want to know how this all piece together. Okay, so basically I would say that around the time that like 4chan, 4chan which started in 2003 or 2005, I don't remember, you know, began in a lot of different social media platforms began.

They all kind of came of age around the time, which is the mid-auts, late-auts, that there was this PUA pick-up artist movement. And it started with this man, Strauss who wrote a book called the Game that was considered pre-controversial or misogynistic at one point, but it was basically just kind of game. Like how men can gamify the system when it comes to human behavior and mating and what makes people attractive to each other, etc. So this was a big thing. It was a huge bestseller and it kind of created a group of dating experts. They could call them like gurus at the time of pick up this thing, pick up our, pick up our industry. And there would be, you know, it became another exploited adventure, like

there would be weekend retreats that cost a lot of money and all that stuff. And while this was happening and forechand is becoming a thing with its boards like R9K, which was for Hickey Kimari, a lot of the language that they were coming up with at the time. And you can imagine there'd be some overlap between people that spend too much time on the computer and our young men maybe aren't getting laid. So there was.

And then pick up artists kind of led to the next generation of young men who felt awkward or whatever, having spent money and time and effort resources on these pick up artists camps and the Las Vegas books, and seeing that it didn't work for them. So they became reactionary against pickup artists. And if you are really into this stuff like I Am,

you'll know that when people write about Elliot Roger, and they talk about the insult forms that he visited, the one that they're referring to is what was called Pua, H-Pua a hate.com. So who's Elliot Roger for the people that don't know? So Elliot Roger is like the first in cell killer as people would call him and understand that he was a 22 year old who shot up his former, you know, it was a college town that he was living in near Santa Barbara, Nilevista, and you know, he murdered just certain people.

So he left a very kind of widely circulated manifesto, and he had YouTube videos. He has a persona very much like a American psycho kind of character, like a Oscar Wilde, or you know, very affected kind of persona. So that I think inspired a lot of copycats, and that was the first attack that was associated with the in-cell community, though he himself never used that word. So yeah, this is where Pua, Pua hate kind of started, and around the same time you had the beginnings of the atmosphere. So all these groups kind of coming up together in reaction to modern society,

feminism, circumstances, and their life. Are the gay in cells or female in cells? So that's a you know a question I get a lot, most in cells themselves would say that there aren't either female in cells with cold in cells, then cells and there is a fem cell there are you know it's like fem cell chats and servers and stuff I haven't really seen a dedicated website it's a pretty different demographic The nature of the conversations is very different and most insoles don't think that

Women really can be in cell. They also don't think that game and can be in cell because they think that women's Selectivity how how picky women are is the reason that most of them be in cell because they think that women's selectivity, how picking women are, is the reason that most of them are in cell. So when you remove the sexual gatekeeper from the conversation, you just have two protagonists that can go at it as much as they want. Exactly. Okay, cool. What is it about these communities that makes them appealing? Well, that was a question that I raised when I wrote about this, which I think is a very

important question. What makes them appealing? What makes any counter-culture appealing? What makes any fringe group appealing? I think there are many things that do, but for the most part, I think anytime someone, you know, really creates like a new identity and finds a new purpose or like a sense of family and community in an external community, that says that there was something missing from their life to begin with. They need to seek, you know, externally to find this. So I think that

that's what it is. I think that for a lot of people it just comes down to feeling unimportant feeling unseen, feeling ignored. And then with this one it's even more obvious. You know, in this community they can speak openly about things that are very shameful and other, you know, pretty much everywhere else. All right, so what sort of things do they focus on? Like you've spent far too long much, far longer than his healthy, engrossed in these sorts of chats. What is the sort of content that's in there?

So, like in the forums, or like when they talk to me, or maybe in the forums. So in the forums, you will have a lot of elves, people posting their elves, it's from the American slang for posting their losses. A lot of commiserating, a lot of talking about something bad that happened today, and how like this, this, and this happened,

proof that I'm really subhuman. There will be talk about the studies from evolutionary psychology or biology that document that less attract like the average heights of CEOs or people respond to more attractive people in terms of hiring, things like that, Tinder, Data Studies, and all kinds of stuff like that, mostly. Is that to legitimate the suffering in a way, to kind of give some statistics and some quantifiable backups to what they're experiencing qualitatively?

Yes, 100%. It's to validate it and also to offer some kind of explanation. But so far, it sounds like it's a place where people that are struggling in life can find other people that are also struggling. And they get, like you say, commissaration, they get support. But I imagine that this must lead to, I know for a fact that it leads to resentment, right? It's not just commiseration of the in-group, it's resentment of the out-group and the out-group would be women. The out-group, not just women, but I mean women's kind of the obvious one, but it's also just like normies. I would say in the more mature

in cells that I speak to that do just get what you're describing out of this group, which is, you know, a sense of belonging. And oftentimes it's just kind of jokes, humor, like it's gallows humor, it's dark, it's memes, but it's still humor. I would say for most, and remember this is a community that skis very young. But so the ones that are a little bit older, I think the resentment is not just women, but just kind of society and the hypocrisy of society for not acknowledging that people can be shallow, people can be lookest, and all of these these things. But yeah, I mean, I've had many examples on the show at this point that have either said explicitly that they feel like the community made things worse for them in terms of their depression. And somewhere I just see it's just not helping.

And then there are some that it does help because they find that community. So many people that I've heard on your podcast that Blackpill or X members of this community do really talk about it, like, almost like leaving a cult. You know, they talk about having seen the light of something that was wrong and then they've kind of come out.

But yeah, it's weird, right? Because on one hand, you think, yeah, if people are struggling and they feel marginalized, then yes, give them a support system. That's great. But it's the slippery slope when it can encourage people to almost stay like that. I think you've said that misery and failure

are almost sort of celebrated in these forums and that ascending and making more of yourself is sometimes sort of talked down to. Is that right? Yeah, I mean not necessarily talked or discouraged but because it has to be a community for insults and there's the gatekeeping that goes along with that too, people can be banned for bragging. That's one of the main. So if somebody was asleep, if one of the members was to finally sleep with a woman, would that be classed as bragging? Yes, or even the way less than that. Like, you know, they'll

complain to me that I can barely say anything on there anymore because even if I just say that, like, a female just talk to me today and they'll call me a chat. So is that, how much of that do you think is the community protecting itself from hope that if one member of this community is able to make a tiny little bit of headway, you know, one millimeter in the right direction and a girl says yes to them, that that then highlights the fact that there's a potential for other members to do that and that obviously creates a delta between where they are and where they want to be and it can cause discomfort. Is that one of the mechanisms?

Yeah, sure. I mean, as it is for, you know, I think friend groups in general, when someone kind of succeeds or other ones don't. And then more specifically in this community, because, you know, to some degree, rightly, they've experienced bullying or teasing for being whatever it is they perceive themselves to be, you know, to varying degrees obviously. And they imagine that this person is just larping to bully them or make fun of them or whatever. What's larping? Live action, well playing. Okay, so that mean like pretending. Pretending. Yeah, okay, okay.

So what are the commonalities about amongst the people that are in these communities, other than the fact that they're struggling with women and not having sex? What are the commonalities do you have? Well, I would say that overwhelmingly a lot of the mergers lonely in general. So there are definitely exceptions to this a substantial amount of them, but for the most part a lot of them have trouble with just platonic friendships too and don't feel they have like a strong social group and just with other aspects of purpose in life, a lot of them just aren't happy.

A lot of them have the vast majority of them have some kind of like either depression or anxiety, pretty significant amount of it. Something like 20% are on the autism spectrum, which is a really, really high percentage. And that's formal diagnoses to not just the suspect that they are, so compared to like one or two percent of the population neat, though, that's not the majority, that's like a third, and neat is not in employment or educational training, so they're under, under employed under, stimulated, you know. And then there's other, there are other, many other commonalities, but I mean,

maybe if you have a question more specifically about one. The first time that I saw the word neat was when the game stopped short squeeze happened earlier this year and they said that I can't believe Wall Street's been taken down by a bunch of fucking neat. Right. Yep. But you see the intersection right of all of these different cultures coming together. Yeah.

So what are their views of women then? So I would say that the views of women are women are spoiled women are privileged women are you know systemically privileged I think that in this you know with varying degrees of irony or sincerity, so there's a range of this too, but not, not faithful, not trustworthy, selfish, obsessed with attention, you know, just attention, male attention, specifically more important

than anything else. ads, kind of almost primitive creatures. It seems interesting thinking about it. I agree that there is an element of looks from male to female attraction that doesn't always get spoken about. But in my experience, status and resources can account for an awful lot of looks. Like, think about the old billionaire, right? There's got a really hot young wife. Are there any of the guys that are trying to sort of manipulate their way out of inseldom through status or acquiring courses. Yes, yes, there are. So they have their kind of Hierarchy of what's important to women is looks money status in that order. Oh really? Yes, do you agree with that?

How would you put it? I think it really varies from person to person and I think personality belongs on that list and they don't. And then I think that I think it's a combination of they talk about this concept of the halo effect which is an idea for when somebody is physically attractive, they are seen as being more intelligent, more funny, more kind, you know, the list goes on. And I think that there's funny of truth to that. But I think the reverse works too, you know,

to where if someone is very funny, and is very intelligent, is whatever, they are also seen to be more attractive, more of the other things. And the blend for each person is very different and it becomes really difficult to know at some point objectively. And they're very interested in ranking.

Like I get asked to rank the rate their appearance on the channel all the time. I wouldn't even know how to do that. I've never talked about it. Why do you think that's the case? Well I have a few ideas about it. I mean obviously there's some rigid thinking going on in this community. Some need for rankings, order, numbers, kind of a black and white thinking too, sometimes that is maybe a little bit more typically male to rank things like that. Maybe a little bit more typically kind of of a conservative or less sort of adventurous, open-minded personality, which would track to. And then again, with autism spectrum disorder, and I'm not trying to, you know, I have to

be very careful whenever I bring it up, even though I think it's so significant, but that's also, when a view, personality type, that tends to be more rigid, more putting things in labels and ranks. So I think all of those things are related, and I think they're all also important for people to consider when they think about how to deal with themselves. So some of them have identified the fact that looks are in an able of four status and resources, but they also sort of rank the hierarchy of these in reverse. So looks first as that. What about trying to make themselves look more attractive?

Isn't there a thing looks max? Yes, looks maxing just means making yourself more attractive? Physically. Yes, there's other, I mean, so if status maxing is a term too, the people can do, which I think is, I always tell them, go for that, that's very important. More important than any of the others. Jester Maxing, being funny, that's their term for it. You can jester Max your way into ascension. And then there's others too, there's all kinds of categories, but the money one they refer to differently as beta-buxing. So that's not just maxing. It's beta-bux and the reason they don't all just try to do this is because then

you might be able to buy your way into having a relationship or even getting married or whatever, but the woman will always be thinking of Chad because you're beta and she'll never really be attracted to you or really love you or be loyal to you. And that's why money is the third of the three. Are status a third of the three? No, status is the third, LMS. That's interesting. States is the third of the three. No, status is the third, LMS. That's interesting. Well, they think that two women looks

as most important than money and then status. I disagree again, but that's not really ranking the outcomes of, you know, this isn't all airtight. Yeah, I understand. It's not really ranking the outcomes of working on either any of the three things. It's just beta, beta gets a different category also because it sounds good, I guess, beta parts.

Yeah, wait, rhymes better, right? Yeah. So, you've mentioned before that the in cells particularly feel sort of marginalised in a modern woke culture. What's that mean? Well that I think there's truth to that because because of you know many of our current movements I guess and attempts to sort of correct portions of our history that have been less fair to some identity or another. Men and a lot of people think of themselves as being white men, even though that's not true, so about half and half. Um, um, uh, are, you know, they're, they're not very high up on the epistemology,

victimology scale. It's kind of on the bottom. So, I think that where we do have a tremendous amount of empathy or at least, the formative, at least the appearance of empathy being granted to almost any group. You can name now protected class. There is none from supposedly the more empathetic people toward this group. Yeah, empathy and victimhood is sort of involved at the moment, right? Like signaling where so compassionate we really care about this marginalized

group. Why do you think it is that in cells aren't getting that same love? Is it just that they're part of what would be a traditional oppressive class, i.e. patriarchy? I think that's where it starts. I think there's also quite a bit of moral panic right now in our culture over quite a bit of moral panic right now in our culture over issues like racism and misogyny as there should be, but to then ascribe, you know, things that are not. Well, So just because so so in cells are this misogynistic group from the privileged class of men. And so therefore what they do that is horrible is I don't know it doesn't entirely make sense to me, but I guess there is a tendency now because everyone's very polarized for especially in sort of the mainstream to really explain anything that's horrible and ugly and unwanted and reviled and you know dangerous into like something that we can say is just this big that evil like racism or

misogyny or something. And so I guess it's difficult for people to imagine that if one belongs to this group, they can't also be deserving of one can't be, they don't neatly fit into oppressor or oppressed. Yeah. Yeah. And also it's, it's derived from individual preferences. Yeah. And that's very hard. How do you say, I'm angry at you, evolutionary programming, like I'm angry at you, hypergamy, especially when everybody is at the mercy, it's like being angry at gravity. Right.

Well, if people accept that those things are, they do actually exist and not everyone does, but yeah. Yeah, well, hopefully, I don't know. I mean, it blows my mind. The blank slate is, I've got James Budworth coming on and I saw that he had a conversation with a feminist, a series of letters, and I was blown away by the fact that most feminists described to, or she said that most feminists

apparently described to this sort of blank slate theory, which is that the only differences that you have between men and women are because of socialization. You know, you've read nothing, but I don't understand how- I'll say common sense, I mean, really just a minimum of common sense, I think we suggest otherwise. If that person is in a relationship, or if those people are in relationships, you'd say, okay, is your husband shorter than you? Yeah.

Not. Right. Does your husband earn less than you? Right. Does your husband less educated than you? Does your husband have less status than you? Right. I can almost guarantee that it's not going to be two or those four.

Exactly. Why is that there? Oh, well, you know, we just have, well, no, that's preferences. Where do you think they came from? Yes. Like, do you think that we just recreated all the preferences that exist in the animal kingdom through socialize it? So we dispensed with them, every other animal got them. It's like, do you know what it is?

It's the biological equivalent of flat earth is. It's like, do you know what it is? It's the biological equivalent of flat earth is. Mm-hmm. It's that I know that I can see out there in the ether spheres. In the sphere and the sun's a sphere, and all of these other planets and stars. But we're not, but we've actually reinvented it so that it kind of looks and feels like we are.

Right, right. Always Ockham's razor, you know? Yeah. Yeah. So what about being pro monogamy? Because I only learned kind of recently about the usefulness of monogamy as a redistributive strategy for sex. And I guess that the in cells are probably quite pro that.

They are pro monogamy generally because so many of them haven't even had a relationship that well why wouldn't they be and and then they have these fears about you know women being unfaithful so it would make sense that they're pro that. I mean. But on the flip side, sorry, I would have guessed that in a different version of the world, they could have said, well, if a society was more sexually liberal and women were more free and open, I might have only got laid more easily. So it doesn't necessarily logically follow that monogamy, that they would be pro-monogamy. That's true. And there are some that actually think that way.

There are a few that do think that way, because women are more sexually liberated that actually works in their favor. But where they don't is what we kind of alluded to, this idea of enforcement in the past, when women weren't so hypergamous and didn't have these endless options, there would be other reasons they'd have to stay with someone. And then maybe beta bucks wouldn't be such a taboo thing, but now that women have all these options, then they are only going to want Chad.

I think there's just a crossover more generally between kind of traditionalist thinking or more issues with contemporary society and in cells for a number of reasons. I mean, one is, I think, kind of obvious, it's just what we talked about with the, one is, I think, kind of obvious, just what we talked about with, you know, maybe we didn't talk about it so much, but feminism and women's, financial, women's ability to have agency and to have a career.

Is there a problem with that? I don't think they have a problem with it per se. I think it's kind of what you alluded to, which is that being that women now can do all those things and sort of elevate themselves on all these levels, but they still want a man that's equal to a man. Yeah, exactly, that it leaves a lot of them out. It takes them out of the...

This is, I mean, I've spoken about this loads, but it is so fascinating what's happening when you've given women the ability to earn status, education and resources off their own back. And the externality of it is so crazy and no one could have predicted. Well, maybe with unbelievable foresight you might be able to predict. But the fact that women quite rightly should be allowed to do what they want and become smarter and richer and be more well-known, more famous, but that they're fundamentally going to shrink their undating pool by doing this, which leads to a bunch of disassociated disaffected men who only have other men to be friends with, and a bunch of singleton

women who are struggling to find a man that they're fundamentally attracted to. And then a bunch of like the only person that's come out of this well are the nines and tens on the on the men's side. Like no one else has come out of this in a good situation. Yeah, I mean, it's true. And you can't it's one of those things that you can't really Like no one would want to I wouldn't want to obviously not to say that anybody would but even if

One did believe that you know turning the clock back on this oh Cutale women's ability to become an educated rich and well-known in an attempt to make them more happy in a relationship. Right, you, right, exactly. Sorry women, no more education for you. Yeah, get back into the kitchen. You can't put that back anyway, even if somebody were to want that. So it's just kind of something that we have to contend with as a species we've had many changes very quickly. Most recently we're dealing with social media and dating apps and you know people having the ability to have what looks like infinite swipes and endless options and to specify their criteria for what they need, whether it's height or income or whatever.

When I think when people meet in real life, it doesn't really work like that. Attraction happens, I mean proximity, just being close to someone geographically. I think about anyone that's worked in an office environment, you end up with the weirdest crushes on people. Yes. If I saw this person out on the street, you end up with the weirdest crushies on people. Yes. If I saw this person out on the street, I wouldn't even look at them twice. Exactly. Because I'm around them all the time.

Yes. The proximity effect just means, I don't know, I get these weird, weird things. Oh, no, something. Yeah, exactly. And that really happens. That really is the way that attraction often works. And these dating apps take that out of the equation, they don't even give that the opportunity to happen. They also lead people to really, if people

want selecting based on looks first before they really are now all you have is this tiny to be curated image of someone to make your first decision. What have been some of the changes that have occurred since you've been researching the in-sell community? Have you noticed the community sort of grow or shift or morph at all? Yeah, I think there've been a lot of changes to it, but it hasn't been around that long to begin with. So it's kind

of hard for me to say what is... So forming, yeah. Yeah. And what's also just cyclical, natural ups and downs. I mean, there's just been a lot more attention on it since I started by media, academia, security, all these bodies. And then there's also been a lot of censorship. So when I started the research, there were a few issues here and there. The main subreddit for in cells

had been banned in 2017 leading to this website. That's now like the most popular one. But since that time, but there were others and since that time they've all been banned. In the last two years, little less than two years, they've all been banned. So it's really leading to a different, I mean, I think it just changes the nature of the community when everybody kind of is funneled to one place and when there's so much scrutiny. That would change the yet, the content in the form, I think, to be a little bit more paranoid. Some people become a little bit more shocking and egelority because they realize reporters and things are...

What's egelority? come a little bit more shocking and an edge lordy because they realize reporters and things. What's edge lordian? An edge lord is someone who is edgy online who will make provocative comments. Okay. But yeah, I mean, as soon as you drive a community or a movement underground, it's going to become more subversive. I know that we both spoke into Andrew Gold and he was saying that one of the, or the number one risk factor for non-offending pedophiles is sort of stigmatization by society. If they feel like there isn't a place for them in society,

then why am I playing by your rules? What's the point? Yeah. And I suppose that you get the same here that if you feel like you're being ostracized by society at large Well, all right fuck it like I'm gonna say the meanest stuff I'm gonna come up with the darkest memes. I'm gonna be the edgyest edgelord that I can because like there's no place for me There so I might as well craft out a place for me here. Yeah, and for people who are already kind of on the On the border to where they have a toe into a fringe community that might be extremist or whatever. And usually we'll come with like a kind of persecution narrative that we're being persecuted and they all want us dead and just like most fringe communities

have. That for people that are actually leaning toward believing that that's just all the more confirmation that society wants nothing to do with you, they might not get. So where are they speaking now? If the subreddits have been removed and everything else has been chopped away, have they gone to the dark web or discord servers or what? They speak a lot on discord.

The, their main website, insells.is currently it has domain changes occasionally for a lot of these reasons, censorship and things like that, various governments. So that's the biggest in-sell site. And I talk with those, you know, the administrators of that site a lot on the show. And then there are a few others, you know, that usually kind of start up and fall down or splinter pretty quickly. So the most recent sort of high profile in cell news story that we've had was here in the UK.

The guy from Plymouth, Jake Davidson, who there's sort of some debate around exactly how he was motivated to commit what he did, what were the contributing factors, and you wrote this really great article for Unheard, which it'll be linked in the show, and it's below if everyone wants to go and check that out. What do you think the press got wrong about the Jake Davidson situation? I think they got it all wrong. I just think that some of it probably kind of knowingly, in terms of how connected he was to this community,

I don't think that that was, you know, he did have a connection to it. I would consider him in itself. Most in cells probably would. He never called himself that. He actually made an effort, you know, to kind of distinguish himself from them. And he was also active in some subreddits that were anti-insel or, you know, about wanting to debate. Insel's approved them wrong. He was just seemed back and forth

with regards to that. So, you know, that's that's very basic point number one. You know, that's very basic point number one. Like, because then if you're going to say, well, he was an in cell, even though he didn't call himself one, he didn't identify that way. But this is what led him to kill. You just can't do that with that kind of definition. But, I think that they're missing some things.

I think that for me reading it, it seems like there was not evidence that this was even planned necessarily. There was no manifesto, there was no leakage, there was no looking for information about location or individuals. I can't even tell from what I read, and I read all his Reddit and everything that he was even necessarily, like, suicidal in an acute way that he hadn't been on and off for a long time. I think he was, he had mental health issues, he was a gun owner. He had an assault. He seemed to be using performance enhancing drugs, steroids from his post history. So, you know, I think that there's just a lot missing from that story. And then I also think that the conversation very much became, are we going to call this

terrorism and why don't we? And I just don't know what that would even do, what it would really help. Yeah, so this was quite a strong talking point that I guess aligns with the oppressor oppressed victimhood narrative. This was quite a strong talking point that I guess aligns with the oppressor oppressed, victimhood narrative. Everything needs to be systemic. It can't be an individual and their idiosyncratic peculiarities about their personal life. It has to be this sort of tip of the iceberg of this emergent substructure from a group

that everybody knows is wrong, an outgroup that's close enough to our in-group for us to be able to hate them. And quite quickly, there were these talks around, this is a man that hated women. He was on websites that are misogynistic and very, very dangerous. And this should be classed in exactly the same way as somebody that wanted to go out and shoot white people or shoot disabled people or whatever that it should be clasped in that way. Let's say that Jake Davidson had been a full red-blooded in-cell edgelord from the depths of one of those forums. Do you think that that would have justified clasping it as a terrorist attack? I don't think that's, I don't think it means that definition.

I mean, you could call that possibly a hate crime if the targets are women or something like that. I would say that that could apply, but terrorism has to have a political aim, and I don't think that any of the insol tax have had a political aim. I just think that that's the wrong word, the wrong set of expertise and resources to devote to this issue because people that know about terrorism and counter-terrorism, it's different. It has a meaning, it has a very specific meaning, you know, and this just does not, it's not commensurate too.

We could argue perhaps that some of the men in these groups are trying to send a message to women that if you reject us, that we may, we can strike back, this is a way that we can take power, don't you forget that men are stronger and with guns we can be stronger several hundred times over. I guess you could, but I just don't think that I think it's a stretch, you know, to call it terrorism in the first place. I don't think it would be the right. You know, I think that this is a problem and problems with having,

let's say it's not terrorism, let's say it's not even violence extremism, but just extremism, just a fringe misogynistic group. I think that there are things about that in and of itself that I would consider dangerous and very unhealthy. And I think that it should be handled if that's really like the motivating factor or even if not, it should be addressed with there should be some approach, some actual,

you know, scientifically sound and thought through approach to dealing with this problem and with the problem of people being sort of pulled into Very dark ideologies There should be and this is a group of people that also would just Benefit even if they are like the the lone wolf or just someone on a downward spiral That maybe would have benefited a lot from some kind of intervention, but I just don't, I don't think it's terrorism. I would agree that deploying the counterterrorism unit, like Jack Bauer isn't going to be able to make much of this, Jake Davidson situation, you're right, that if you have a very particular set of skills,

and those are counterintelligence, they are collecting assets and working out, you know, I mean, when these groups are having Reddit threads shut down and that's like a big blow to the community, they're not operating at the same sort of level. And I think that fundamentally what this comes out of, which is different to most terrorist organizations, is not the impetus for why people join is not because of a shared vision around the world, it's because of a personal experience of the world, which has resulted in a commonality that they've been able to bond over. Yes, yeah. And that might be true for why a lot of individuals join these other groups too that they what they really share as a personal

Experience that they're then sublimating onto this you know wider problem, but It's this is just different What about in cells and white supremacy? So I saw that get thrown around as well. Far right, hate groups and white supremacy. Is that just the press churning out the usual talking points that they sometimes like if you

if patriarchy then sometimes white supremacy and also far right hate groups? Or is there actually something to this? There is something to it in so far as the language is borrowed and it goes back and forth between these communities because a lot of them, again also they both grew out of forechan, the alt-right as we currently know it, the young ones, So, all right, as we currently know it, the young ones, the memes and everything like that. There's some similarities in that culture. There are similarities in the fact that they're both anti-feminist to a degree tradition

list. A lot of that, I think, has crossover with those personality types that kind of mentioned before, which is why some of this material would be more seductive for a certain personality type. So I would say there's a lot of crossover. Also any any um you know army in the past, any like uh terrorist group or just take group or anything like that now the people who join are probably going to be like disaffected young men that don't have a girlfriend and don't have that much to lose. So there's just that. Have you seen much talk about race in the groups that you were a part of?

Yes, there's loads of talk about race. They use very, you know, politically incorrect or, you know, offensive language to talk about it, but it's not racism in, I know, this, we get into a lot of trouble when we try to talk or define anything to do with this concept right now, and I understand that it can still be considered racist to say things that are offensive even if the intention isn't to offend or isn't hate, but I would just make that distinction that mostly it's people of other races sort of talking about themselves. They talk a lot about women being racist and how women are more racist and more picky than men in terms of their dating app matches and things like that.

Yeah, so I think contextualizing the other sort of language that's being used in these groups probably changes the use of the N word to something else because when you are being as edgy as you can, using the N word is almost just like a, it's crazy to think. I went on one of these new video hosting platforms, you know, one of these decentralized things and with unmoderated comments and I was, I was like, wow, I can't believe that people post stuff like this on the internet. I couldn't believe that he was still existed. So yeah, when you contextualize stuff like that, it does make sense.

You mentioned early Ron that you said it was about 50, 50 when you were talking about white participants of these groups to other ethnic backgrounds. Is that right? Yes, at least in like, in sales.co.is now. 50% of the people on in sales.co are from an ethnic minority. And that's given the fact that most of the members are from Europe and the United States. So that's even, I would say that's a common common. So like you've gotten over-represented

if Indian population in here or like lots of people from Ghana or something like that that are bringing the numbers up? Well, right. I mean, but you think that given, I don't know, I think if the United States still something like 70 or so percent is white, Europe's probably similar. So, you know, the majority of the members are from those countries, then that's definitely not. I don't think that's over-representing. Yeah, so proportionally, you have an over-representation of minorities in this group. Maybe even a little bit. Yeah.

That's interesting. Yeah, it is. This is a, if it's correct, I mean, how are you judging that? Have they got some sort of self-reporting thing when they sign up with their profile? And have you been able to drill these data? They, yeah, they do. I mean, this is one of the first things that kind of interested me was that they take, they were doing this of their own community, these polls, every six months, that were long and for great questions,

and you know, we'd get sample sizes that like most academics dream of like seven. You'd never be able to get this if you were outside of the group, yeah. Exactly. So, and I'm pretty sure people answer quite honestly there. That's crazy. This is another one of those, as opposed to challenges, where a victimhood narrative and the current popular viewpoint of the world, the intersection starts to clash up against itself, that you're supposed to be helping people that are in minorities, but this is a minority group, which is also a man.

This man is part of the patriarchy. There's something else as well. There's an X factor that I don't think we've touched on yet, and it's not an X factor. It's like an X factor. There's something about the group that causes society at large to feel, have you sort of considered why this is? Yeah, I mean, I thought about that a lot because it's so, it was so striking when I first started the podcast, the reactions people would have and really there just people just did not want to hear anything about it, it just didn't want to touch it. And I noticed that from men, at first, at least a little bit more than women even. And, you know, I've asked about that. One in self has been on my show very early on, had a good theory, which was that

part of the reason people are so, they have such a visceral reaction to it because I asked him that too, is that, well, because we're the people that they always teased, you know, when they were kids in school or whatever, and kind of suggesting that having to look at this would mean having to acknowledge that they have been shallow and cruel,

and I think that there might be an element of that. And then I think that there's also just like the sense that it's like contagious, and people just don't want to be associated with that thing, with this undesirable, you know, annoying virgin loser, creepy guy. And so there's just a real version to it. Well, on top of that as well, I think that there's a sense that there's no prestige associated with supporting this group. So what you might see from somebody supporting an obvious minority, some of it is disabled, let's say. Look at me, look at how valiant I am supporting this marginalized group. This is a comment on my moral grandstanding as a human, whereas who's going to stand

up and give the guy that supports guys that can't get laid apart on the back? It just seems like, I think as well, and I'm sure that this appears in the groups, but there's also a sense of, there's something wrong with you if you can't get a woman that this is something fundamental that men are supposed to do. Exactly. That there is a, almost a sense that they deserve it in some way, I'm sure. Oh yeah, and there were people who will say that explicitly, like, oh, you they deserve it in some way I'm sure. Oh yeah and there people will say that explicitly like oh you must deserve it so I mean in a way that in a way that that does kind of at least confirm some of the

in-cils feelings about this which is that in our society to it's still kind of like acceptable to make fun of someone for that. It still suggests that there is something very wrong with a person who can't and so much so that the people are even afraid to say anything, you know, indefense of them. I was talking about this at a cricket match, the most British way to have a conversation about sort of social norms. We were talking about the fact that if you were to sing a racist chant, that would be newsworthy, right?

There would be an investigation, it would be a hate crime. And the summary of that is that we don't want people to feel sad because of an immutable characteristic that's part of them. But that level of protection only extends so far. So if you started making jokes about somebody, or if you started a chant about somebody being ginger That wouldn't be classed as being protected or for instance That the example that we heard was we were at a game and there was a player there who apparently recently had either split up with his wife or his wife had been caught cheating on him or something like that and this chant came up about Like where's your wife at to to this player now? Let's say that that player was a minority.

I'm pretty sure that the one that would have hurt most would have been the chant about his wife, which is very pinpoint and it's a pain trigger that's absolutely for him. Yeah, it's absolutely cool. And it feels like there's some sort of resonance between the protection that we have and the lack thereof within the in-cell community. Do you understand what I mean? Yeah, yeah. I don't know. It's like there's kind of like this

men should be able to take that kind of joking on the one hand. And if they, you know, certainly it should be joking because they should also be able to handle a woman and that. So there's that, which is very much playing into the whole traditional gender norms for one, which is part of why it's so hypocritical. And then that if they can't, they're just whining and complaining and like, you know, get a hobby of the gym, stop whining.

But that's not consistent with the idea that men are should be able to express their feelings, their hurt, or that we should be very sensitive not to punch down and someone's either in a multiple characteristics or just circumstances in their life that are not things that any of us want. Yeah, it's like it's okay to talk, but not about the fact that you can't get laid. It's like it's okay to talk is easy to mental health campaigns going on in the UK at the moment. Yeah, you think, well, yeah, there's something about it.

There's some sort of blind spot. I mean, I'm feeling that, and especially as I've been reading more about this in preparation for speaking to you and just generally I was quite sort of fascinated by the community overall. My empathy is quite conflicted here because I really, really do feel and hearing the guys talk on your show, they're obviously, you know, really sensitive humans. For the most part, I think you've had some that are a little bit more sort of on the psychotic end of the spectrum. But for the most part, these are just lonely guys that you want to take under your wing and go, look, come out for a beer.

It'll be sweet. We'll just go for a beer and it'll be fine. And on the flip side, there's a challenge because some of the, as you get deeper and deeper in some of these communities, the fact that you can have quite dangerous narratives around women, that the coping mechanisms that some of these groups have used, i.e. sort of this in-group outgroup hatred of women, and then also of whatever the normies the chads, that's something really isn't so deserving of empathy, but you can, if you've tracked this step by step, you can see where that comes from.

Have you found yourself, I know that you've previously been criticized for being too empathetic with these individuals. Is this something that you battle with internally? Um, maybe a tiny bit, but pretty rarely because like, I don't really battle with my actual position on it, because I really do feel that with anyone that believes in a malevolent ideology, with a designated enemy, and they weren't born that way, that did start somewhere. There's something missing for this person and all of the evil that can come from that

if we really want to stop that, then approaching us from a place of understanding that these are actually human beings and that they're unhappy and that, you know, I think it would also end up keeping us all more safe in the long run. I really do. I don't think that like you can silence and shame and shut these things out of existence. So, no, but there are times that I just get really fed up with reading the things that I read and with the attitudes I get

sometimes. Why did you get fed up? Well, because some of the things are horrible. I mean, like horribly misogynistic and, you know, the, you know, you do get sick of it sometimes. Like it's funny because I read from all these people that work in countering violent extremism and things like that. And they talk about how difficult it is for them to just read this content. Oh God, I can't, I don't feel that way.

Like I don't find it like traumatizing to me to read things from a form. I just don't. But I can I can find it like there's some days where I'm just sick of it or find it sickening or I'm talking to an individual who is being really stubborn and like, what was me and, you know, even a little rude to me when I'm getting to my time. And it can just be exhausting. And sometimes, you know, the ideas that come out of it, yeah, really do kind of sick and me. But I still think that for the most part, any individual when they're out of their echo chamber and out of their group is very different. And on that level, kind of a one on one level, I don't feel that way toward any of the people I speak to. It doesn't sound that way either. I think maybe there was one episode that I heard where

the guy, I was like, wow, this guy's really intense. But other than that, most of them, most of them really do just seem like people trying to find out answers. There's a quote from the moral animal by Robert Wright. I'm not sure if you're familiar with this book. I'm gonna guess it'll probably be quite popular in circles. It was one of the first big evolutionary psychology books. There's this quote that just hit me. I knew that I had it somewhere

and I saw this Jake Davidson thing and thought went searching in my read-wise highlights. Here's a quote, male violence can be dampened by circumstance and one circumstance is a mate. We would expect womanless men to compete with special ferocity and they do. An unmarried man between 24 and 35 years of age is about three times as likely to murder another male as a married man the same age Some of this difference no doubt reflects a kind of men who do and don't get married to begin with But Martin daily and Marga Wilson have argued cogently that a good part of the difference may lie in the pacifying effect of marriage And that was written in

1993 or 1995. So we're talking on like nearly 30 years that this has been quite common understanding. Well, I think it was a common understanding. And I think now if that were written, it would be met with some objections, I would, I would think. Maybe the author would be cancelled. Robert wrote that book precisely the right time, but he said that he came from a very religious background. And the book is written, it's semi-biographical about Charles Darwin. And he was like, really, really bad.

I'm pretty certain that Robert's dad is like, was really active in the church or maybe was some sort of pastor or priest or something and he got in so much trouble. And it's mad, he's still, he came on the podcast like five months ago and he's still going 30 years hence, been just delivering these really incisive talks and this book is beyond interest. It's so good. It's really long as well. And yeah, it's so current. I really do love it. But yeah, that male violence thing, like, of course,

of course, is, why wouldn't you think that there would be a pacifying effect of having a mate? Yeah, exactly. It's really not that hard to get one's mind around. Yeah, to have an underclass. Does anyone in the in-cell group, so they'll, any of them, talk about this situation in China where you have these entire tower blocks of disaffected men who were unable to get dates? Oh, I haven't heard about it in China, in Japan, in Japan, there's the HIKI KIKI MORI. That might be what I'm talking about. And I would just be very pejorative about an entire nation of people. Sorry. It's fine.

I could be wrong, too. Okay, so whatever that group is, have you, have you, do they talk about that or have you learned about that? Yeah, the HIKI KIKI MORI, I would say it's kind of like a proto-inselcell group, you know, in Japan, they're young people, it's not gendered there though it is mostly men, but the term doesn't make a distinction. And they don't work, they're not in school, they're not providing for themselves, they don't have like adult relationships. And they basically just kind of stay home and live off their parents. This was such a big problem at one point that the Japanese government actually took a report of like how many of these people there were.

And there were so many that they began to refer to the 2030 problem, which is what would happen when most of these HIKI-KI mori and most of their parents would die and like how we're going to provide for these people. Crazy. What do you think next for the in-sell community? It would appear that they're being squeezed increasingly from a technological standpoint. It also appears that there are increasingly more counter-cultures, anti-black pill cultures that are coming

through. I don't know what the sort of relative memberships are like. They're so pretty small. I think that, you know, I really thought that this problem would more or less go away, not that in cells would, but just that this association would like attack and therefore the increased censorship and stuff would because I don't know why I just did. But I feel like the more scrutiny there is on this community, I just think that causes more of a problem. Why? Because, well, from a purely pragmatic standpoint, let's just say if you're a law enforcement, when every big

tech platform sensors, they migrate and become harder to monitor. So that's just, you know, one, very obvious problem. I think two is that then there becomes no, back and forth with different perspectives. So more of an echo chamber, more of an extreme echo chamber. And yeah, it sort of confirms that idea of being persecuted and being having no place in society. And then also for those very few that I believe are, you know, maybe violent to begin with have a fascination with mass shooters to begin with are just deranged.

Then they know that adding this kind of cause to whatever they do will just up the notoriety. And there are some sick individuals that want that. So I think it's a problem in many ways. And I think that hopefully, there begins to be a little bit of a change in that conversation the way that they're dealt with. Because this will always be a part of our society and it will always be you know a problem in a source of Reef or conflict for someone to feel that they have no place in it and no family and are not desired and So those are the deeper issues and to look at those Now my Kate's ladies and gentlemen if people want to check out what you do and listen to your podcast where should they go?

It's called in cell and the only podcast called Insell. So it's available pretty much anywhere you get your podcasts. My Twitter for the show is at Insell Project, and my personal Twitter at Donna Cates. That's it. Perth for Social Media and me. Cheers. Thanks for the night. Thank you.