Modern Wisdom - #370 - James Bloodworth - Understanding The Modern Dating Economy

Episode Date: September 11, 2021

James Bloodworth is a journalist, podcaster and an author. The modern dating market is a mess. From polyamory to OnlyFans, Tinder to Trad Wives. No one really knows the best approach for navigating these waters, and the lessons from our parents no longer apply. James has dedicated an entire podcast series to the most interesting parts of the dating economy and today we're going through them. Expect to learn whether porn addiction is really a thing, why sexual inequality is the only inequality no one wants to campaign for, James' insights around what Tinder is doing to dating, why 17% of people think that approaching anyone is harassment and much more... Sponsors: Get 40% discount on everything from boohooMAN at https://bit.ly/manwisdom (use code MW40) Get 20% discount on the highest quality CBD Products from Pure Sport at https://puresportcbd.com/modernwisdom (use code: MW20) Extra Stuff: Buy James' book Hired - https://amzn.to/3ySmh7l Follow James on Twitter - https://twitter.com/J_Bloodworth  Get my free Reading List of 100 books to read before you die → https://chriswillx.com/books/ To support me on Patreon (thank you): https://www.patreon.com/modernwisdom - Get in touch. Join the discussion with me and other like minded listeners in the episode comments on the MW YouTube Channel or message me... Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/ModernWisdomPodcast Email: https://chriswillx.com/contact/  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Oh hello friends, welcome back to the show. My guest today is James Bloodworth. He's a journalist, podcaster and an author. We are talking about the modern dating economy. The modern dating market is a mess. From polyamory to only fans, Tinder to tradwives, no one really knows the best approach for navigating these waters and the lessons from our parents no longer apply. James has dedicated an entire podcast series to the most interesting parts of the dating economy and today we're going through them. Expect to learn whether porn addiction is really a thing, why sexual inequality is the only inequality no one wants to campaign for, James' insights around what Tinder is doing to dating, why 17% of people think that approaching anyone is harassment

and much more. Also we've just released a video on the YouTube channel about why being an entrepreneur absolutely sucks. Hustle and grind culture tells you that you should flip your soy boy boss off and leave your job to go and make it on your own and create millions, but the reality of working for yourself is very different. And in this video I go through exactly why it's quite challenging and it's not all sunshine and rainbows.

Go and check it out. It is linked in the show notes below or just go on the Chris Williams and YouTube channel and you will find it to there. But now it's time for the wise and wonderful. James Bloodworth. James Bloodworth, welcome to the show. Nice to be here. Why is calling the dating market, the dating economy, a good term? I'm not sure it's a good term. I mean, it seems very, it seems slightly brutal to look at

that dating of romance and our ideas of romance to turn it into some kind of economic exchange. But I think it can be useful. I think it can be a useful way to, it can be useful metaphor for some of the things that are going on in the world of dating. I think it can be a useful metaphor for people who aren't in that dating market at the moment. Say, typically older people who are married or who grew up in a very different era

when very different social norms prevailed. I think the idea of a dating economy can be a useful way to convey to them some of the inequalities that exist now. And the final point where it is with dating apps, you have actual data on what men's women's preferences are. So that can be put in spreadsheet. So it's kind of an economy. Yeah, well, you're hearing more sort of economic language around this stuff now. People are scored out of 10.

You have algorithms that are manipulating people's ranks on dating accounts. There are like sexual market value, is a term that's often used in men's rights spaces around the relative age to attractiveness graph that goes on. So it kind of, it kind of does make sense. And yeah, I suppose communicating it to people who found their partner a very long time ago, they need something to be able to bridge the gap between their dating world and ours, which is essentially a

different universe. Yeah, and I mean, there is a dark side to it as well, though. I think there's a dark side to treating it as an economy and and and treating it in this very like deterministic fashion, quantitative fashion, where you you ascribe these certain characteristics of someone say like a Chad, so like the good looking Chad guy. And that, you know, that's the person who gets with women, and then this other person who does look the right way doesn't, you know,

they have no chances over as some of the insults. So I think that kind of determinism in terms of creep into it, when it's seen as like an economy. Whereas in reality, dating is not a market where there's certain laws, which exists. There's nuances, like someone doesn't. Yeah, it's too simplistic, too deterministic. I agree. So since 2008, the number of American men under 30 reporting no sex is nearly tripled. Why do you think that is? I think there's more than one factor of course. I mean, I think the most obvious one, like historic one, would be the shift from like a manogamous culture to what we have today, which is today is, I wouldn't call it hook-up culture, so I think today is a mixture. Some people are very engaged with dating apps and hookups,

but I think a lot of people do still want to pursue like a more traditional route. But I think that's one big change. So whereas in the past, you lived in a small community, you tended to pair off with someone suitable for you. Women didn't have the same learning power they had. So women were more restricted, unfortunately, in like who they could choose to date,

because the tenants have to marry, who their family approved of, because of financial reasons. And so that would be the first reason. That culture is no longer really as strong as it was in the past. So, women don't need to settle down with men, they're not attracted to, basically.

The second reason I suppose, I think dating apps have made a big difference, because, and when I not attracted to, basically. The second reason I suppose is I think dating apps have made a big difference because, and when I say dating apps, I also mean apps like Instagram because I think this idea that how you present yourself is also is almost more important than the substance as a person. So like if you know how to present yourself probably, I think you can do really well in today's

dating economy, even if you don't necessarily have the attributes of the child or whatever. But I think, most people don't know that, I don't think. And that makes it very hard for them to kind of, when more than 50% I think of people who, young couples who get together nowadays, they met on a dating app. So if you don't know how to present yourself through a screen, if you're not photogenic, if you can't convey things like status or good looks or whatever resources, social dominance or whatever over a photo or a profile,

I think then you have a really hard time. And so you're in the house looking at porn because they're an easy alternatives as well. So to kind of satiate you, so you don't need to go out and risk rejection. More than 50% of couples met online. Yeah, it's, it's, you, you'd assume that anyway now I think because I mean anyone, I met my girlfriend on, on Hinge. My friends, they're, the people they're meeting, it tends to be on Dazing Apps.

There's still vast stuff. You still meet people who've bars and stuff until the pandemic, but it's apps are just an easier option. Yeah, it's an interesting one, man, thinking about what that means, what that does to us as a society. I think that you're right, this desire to be able to understand everything creeps in from other areas, so science tries to explain the entire world in terms of concepts. And then we want to be able to add that sort of deterministic, reductionist, rationalist,

perspective to dating as well. Okay, so what am I out of ten? What height am I at? How many matches have I got on Tinder? Where do I sit in my sexual market value? All of these things seem to sort of colorless. Yeah, and it even going back to say like the pick-up artists in the Neil Stryce, right, the game in 2005, I think it was. And even around that kind of scene, it was, it kind of was really about nerds basically, socially awkward men,

trying to put the kind of treat it like engineering, treat it like, treat it, treat dating like you're an engineer or you're, so you know, you put this wire in here, you press this button, and then you get this response and kind of quantify everything and remove the like uncertainty, because the pain is in the uncertainty, isn't it? When you first go out with someone, when you first approach someone to start conversations with them, it's a fear of rejection. It's terrifying. So if you can quantify everything, so you can figure out, if you take this move, then this outcome will happen. Or it gives you a rationale for just giving up. So within cells, it's or it gives you a rationale for just giving up. So with insults, it's, I think there's a kind of

misanthropic aspects to some of it where you kind of self-legilate yourself and get something from that and these doctrines like the Black pill tell you, oh it's over, there's no point even trying. And there is a kind of weird freedom in that, just like... A giant image, you're so frail. surprise. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like an island's not screwed the world, you know, or not in this case, fuck the world. What do you think it says that a lot of the guys that were part of that fratire pick a party street community 10 to 15 years ago are in really weird places now. So Neil Strauss has had the biggest 180 ever and seems to be sort of super happily married. That mystery guy, I don't know where he's gone,

that Rouch V, he's now like a born again Christian or something, took a max, the guy that invented Frataire, the entire Frataire genre, he's now like a paragon ofDMA psychotherapy and went to psychotherapy every day for five years and now is self-helping people to self-publish books like David Goggins. What do you think that says? Is that just guys growing up? Is that just mistakes that you make when you're single and then the wrangling effect of

a relationship or is there something else going on there? I mean, different, for different cases,? I mean, different for different cases. So I mean, I think different things are going on. And there's also, you know, the big part of what used to be like the pickup community is now and moved into like self-help and personal development of, you know, as spiritual, supposedly like a spiritual kind of transformation and stuff.

I think the one reason I think this happened, so I mean I've seen people from that old community on videos doing anti-vax stuff as well and that kind of thing now, you know, the calling it the plan, they're making things like that, which I think part of that comes from an initial distrust of the mainstream. So if we go back to say like 2005 when Neil strives publishes book, one of the reasons that lots of men were drawn to the picker by stuff, I think. And when it comes to my interest in this, I sucked with just social skills in general when I was like 22, 23. And I think a lot of people got drawn into that

because what the mainstream told young people and men and women about romance was kind of, you kind of started to see through it as you reach your kind of teams early 20s. And it didn't just happen, fate didn't take care of it. The being nice, being a gentleman, being a chivalrous gentleman, it wasn't, yeah, the girls didn't want to be interested in you, like in college or whatever, and it was the

cliché, like the guy who was kind of a dick, who seemed to be the one who got with the attractive girls, and not necessarily because he was a dick, but there was other things going on there. But I think lots of people who got into the PUA and pick up stuff, they saw this mainstream narrative, you know, heard the parents telling them, just like, be nice and you'll meet someone. And they just saw right through it. And then there was a void there. And then the kind of pick-up artist stepped in and said, you know, this, you know, they actually said that some of the dating is counter-intuitive, like flirting said, you know, they actually said that some of the dating is counter-intuitive, like flirting, for example.

But there was this toxic cycle of that too. And I think, I forgot where I'm going with this. I just, where's that, why have we seen these people from their pivot into these incredibly sort of different lives, you know, only 10 years later. Yeah, I mean, I think, yeah, distrust of the mainstream. So you've seen that kind of that their whole trajectory from pick up to, like, self-help to some of the religious, like, weirdness that this guy, Roosh Vee, I mean, he was a very talkative example at, right away, through, in my opinion. So, but I think the distrust of the mainstream has propelled

these people into different cults basically. Part of that is because the mainstream does talk rubbish on dazing advice and I think pick up and was sort of a reaction to that, even though, you know, it is itself quite toxic in many ways. You spent a fair bit of time last year speaking to people on a podcast about the modern dating economy. What were some of the more surprising insights that you weren't ready for during your research for that?

I suppose, I mean, I was being kind of optimistic by people's potential to like self-improve in some way. It's like the average person. I know people have different problems and stuff, but I think, yeah, someone over like average looks average, kind of abilities can like go to the gym and like improve themselves a bit and things will get easier in terms of like dating.

But I suppose speaking to people on the podcast, there was a couple of conversations where, I kind of, I spoke to someone about lookism. I had a conversation about lookism. What's that? So it's discrimination based on what people look like. So we all do that in dating, but it's kind of across other areas.

So, you earn less over a lifetime if you, stereotypically less attractive and you earn more over a lifetime if you, stereotypically less attractive and you end more of a lifetime if you're, stereotypically attractive. I kind of learned more about how deep that is in society, how deep the kind of, how deeply we often treat, how differently we often treat, stereotypically good looking people from those who want

so fortunate in that way. And also, I think a lot of the advice to give them to in-sales can be condescending when it comes from that kind of self-development, self-help space. So I had a conversation with William Costello who's done some writing on research on in-sales. And he's recorded that one of the things that's most often said to in-sales is, oh, just lift, just lift, bro, go to the gym and that'll solve your problems. And just go out to the bar and if you pick up artists, hold them to just go out to the bar and just start approaching.

But then there's a bit of arrogance to that because we don't understand always the issues that some of these people are going through. So you help people with physical deformities, you help people with 20%, I think, of people on the in the intel community have aspergars or high functioning autism. So I mean, just saying someone to go right to a bar and socialize or go to the gym is sometimes tired of those people. Yeah, that was what came up, what speaking to Nama, on the podcast as well, that the languages in the world,

that people, different people exist in, they don't work anymore, the pieces of advice that previously we would have got from our parents or from modern dating, doesn't understand. But then as you get more and more nuance, they don't understand the challenges either. There was another one that I thought was really interesting talking about the differences between men and women.

17% of young people think approaching anyone is harassment, but also 90% of women want the man to approach first. How can those two things exist at the same time? Yeah, I mean, there's a weird kind of cognitive distance in the culture, generally, I think, when it comes to dating and the moment. So that's one example where you have a thing is, I mean, that's 17% or whatever, that's like people, they're all online because it seems like that's, if you're on Twitter or something,

and you've been suggested, you're approaching someone you're interested in just, you know, a bar or something or, you know, coffee shop or whatever, they would say that's, you know, borderline harassment already. It's weird, but then if you go out into the real world, I mean, people are still meeting like that. People that is still, it's still happening with this weird, like, discourse online, which pretends, with scolds, I think, one of the people who are there to do such a thing. I think that's, I think one who would dare to do such a thing. I think that's, I think there is an issue for men in terms of, so men don't often perceive how uncomfortable they make women feel.

They often don't, there was a recent book by David Bus, the... Yeah, I'm from the psychology. He's been on it. He was amazing. Yeah, his work is really interesting. And his book, Bad Men, he talks about the empathy gap where if a woman's approach by these creepy guys, then the men being creepy will often not understand

that they're being creepy. There's this empathy gap. And they don't understand how uncomfortable they're making them win feel. So I mean, I think there are, I think there's a backlash against that and women are kind of demanding in many cases not to be harassed or even talk to in the public kind of space. But I think there's a bad, there's an obvious balance, there's a way to go and start a conversation with someone and there's a way not to do it. I think common sense is like most people outside of the kind of Twitter weird ideological tower, every tower

understand what's creeping and what's not at least on one level. But yeah, this is kind of weird ideological cognitive distance at the moment. It is strange because I understand you want to, you don't want to get people into a situation where they're made to feel uncomfortable. Nobody wants that. No one, and the rest of all is a guy. You don't want to be the guy that makes someone feel uncomfortable, either. But on the flip sides, 90% of women want the man to approach first.

This is something that keeps on coming up. Desire and the market always kind of manifests everyone's truth forward. So for instance, when companies talk about social justice activists talk about perhaps, let's say the, the perils are fast fashion. Like I can't believe that these companies are selling these clothes for so cheap and they're damaging the environment and they're hurting the workers. But then when you look at what those girls wear on their nights out, they'll happily go on pretty little thing and grab themselves

address for £10. So the market always seems to kind of find where people's real truths lay, and then the same thing seems to happen in dating too, that in some ideologically pure environment where we try and nerf any discomfort out of the world. Yeah, maybe there are situations in which maybe the safest world that we could exist in is one where no man ever walks up to a woman because that means that no woman can ever be made to feel uncomfortable, but it also means that most women are not going to feel like they're desired

and desire is a really important thing. So yeah, you do have these sort of conflicting ideologies bouncing up against each other. Yeah, and I think there's, it's very hard to have a conversation about inequalities in the dating quote-unquote market. I find this very hard to have conversations with when it's with people who haven't studied this in some way or who haven't taken the interest in it. So they're just looking at it from like a personal perspective. I found with guys, there's like a lot of guys have a lot of ego around around this stuff. So, you know, they, they, they have the social skills to go and meet in a bar, just walk up to someone and talk socks, a conversation, whatever.

And so they kind of sneer at the insoles and throw the insol, insol around everywhere. To kind of show that they're superior to those people. Whereas if they were in the same context, insoles are a no. They just literally got lucky in that situation. So there's kind of an ego attached to discussing some of these things. I think women are reluctant to discuss dating inequality partly because I think there's a legitimate fear of a regression to some of the kind of socially conservative norms of the past, but in particular the ones which

didn't give women much freedom because it's sort of to control their sexuality. I think there's there's a fear on the part of women to kind of look at dating inequalities because there's an aspect of that which fills to them like we're blaming women for their choices, you know, for not choosing the nice, the nice guy who works in insurance or whatever. But for like going off with Chad who has a motorbike, I think there's an element of, because I think that's too deterministic as well, but I think women fear that conversation taking centre stage because then you then get a movement which tries to put women back into this box where they don't have any sexual freedom at all? Yeah, in a world where inequality is quite invoked and applauded at the moment, why do you think sexual inequality is one of these ones that just isn't, apart from the desire of women not to

be put back into a sort of a trad world, which is perfectly legitimate. I think partly because what's the remedy be? I mean, there is, I mean, the remedies are individual. So the remedy, if you're, so I mean, the remedy if you're someone who's struggling to, if you're a guy who's struggling to get any kind of date or anything, I mean, there is really no other remedy than kind of individual work on

yourself in some ways, like all just focusing on other things. So, so, work on yourself, you know, basic self-improvement stuff, I think it's kind of whole true, that goes to the gym, get some hobbies, improve your social skills in like fine ways to start talking and conversing with people so you're so your social muscle that builds more. I mean, and also I would say just like focus on other stuff because I think one of the problems is there is a kind of, so when the feminist talk about this issue, what they are right about is the way men treat each other based on how many people, how many women the man's had sex with,

is like we hold men in much higher esteem, typically culturally, if they're seen as someone who gets with women or whatever. And where is if you're not, you're insulted as the plet from the playground age, it's like a virgin or an insel, and I think men have to move away from that value system a bit, because there are lots of problems with it, but one of them is if you happen to be at the lower end

of that hierarchy and you're attaching so much value to the fact that so your ability to get an apart and ship or whatever, you think that that's the be all an end or a life. I think that makes it worse. There is something to be said for focusing on some vocation or whatever instead. And then, finally enough, paradoxically, I think people are more attractive when they do that as well. They gain status,

they become more attractive people because they have ambition and drive on. It's a weird one because I think a lot of women judge other women's looks more harshly than men do because they're able to see the finer points of that dress with those earrings and those nails or shit or whatever. And then men judge other men's status and resources and sexual conquests. Now the consequences are more important to the other side because that kind of gets to work out where you are hypergumously within the hierarchy for each different gender, but a lot of the discomfort actually gets delivered

from your own side, right? You get the pain about not pulling or being a virgin or an inseller whatever, from your own side, more so from the other. And the same thing goes for looks with women that a lot of the criticisms I think that women have around beauty standards for women, the finger needs to be pointed very heavily at women for creating these beauty standards for each other. Yeah, I think there's kind of an element of introsexual competition, so like pulling

other women down a men's do it as well, just in a different way. They berate them for different things and try and subvert their masculinity and belittle them for that. But I think we've come from an era where there were all these norms around marriage and the nuclear family and Many of those were quite quite sexist and stuff and now you've got you've got the kind of residual memory of that so you've got a generation of others Who who that was completely normal and and those attitudes they still pass on to their to their kids and stuff and We have a more liberal which I think is generally a good thing

kids and stuff. And we have a more liberal, which I think is generally a good thing, a sexual climate now, where the same ideas are kind of transmitted to young men who aren't very successful, that, you know, if you don't, if you aren't finding someone to settle down with, or if you aren't, sleeping with all these women, you're basically a loser and a virgin and an insult. I think that's, I think that's, yeah, that's incredibly toxic. And I think that's an apps like Instagram and whatnot where you see the rise of influencers, it's like Damwell's area. It kind of elevates even more this idea that the kind of the really successful man

is the person with like a harem of women or whatever, that politeness. And that's not necessarily a very good icon for the women either, because their treatise is kind of props in that scenario. What are some of the challenges that women have in the modern dating market? I think the age-old one of threat of violence. So the risk...

So going out on a date with someone new for us on an app or something, it wouldn't really cross a mind that I head can end up on a stick at the end of the night or something. It's like that wouldn't even think about that generally. You're not bothered about whether she's putting something in your drink here. I did have a stalker, but I do have a stalker, so it's a pretty shunned head, but it's still, I don't think the fear of physical violence isn't like the same. So, no, I think that's, obviously, for women, that's the biggest challenge. I think also, now you have on dating apps,

there's a level of inequality, so there's a, like the date we have, it's like a relatively small percentage of men, like 10, 20%, whatever it is, 10 to be the ones getting most of the matches and then the average male is not doing that well, you know, just a few matches. And I think for women on the one hand that's good because they now they have a wider pool of people who kind of shoot their shot at. So if you're a woman on a dating app you can actually actually start a conversation with the highest status guy who maybe lives in the city, when you live in the country or whatever, and you can at least have a shot of that.

But I think it can be bad for women because I think they then get used to a lot of those men and not necessarily women can enjoy casual hookups as much as men. And that's, I think, what we get at the society is beginning to accept that more than I. But it's also, I think they often date these guys in the hope of a relationship and then the guys string them along and then they end up kind of using them. So I think women can get the role and can get a raw deal across the board. It seems to be the chads who do the best, the so-called chads who do the best of the dating app economy. There's only them that have won as far as I can see.

So yeah, I would agree and say that more choice for women, more liberation, fewer judgments around sexual sort of freedom. Yeah, those are good things. But as women become higher status, better educated with more resources, they want to date up and across. But as men can't keep up with the women that are now starting to outperform them,

the women all they really have left to do is to have an ever increasing group of women competing for an ever decreasing group of high performing high status men, or to date someone that fundamentally they're slightly less attracted to. And if you've been through the dating pool on Tinder and you have had a hookup or a couple of hookups with these super high value men, you're now, you've got this sort of comparison game going on where you think, well, this was, this was what I got before. Therefore, I can get it again, but the paradigm within which that worked, like it's hookup versus relationship.

And then that creates resentment amongst some of the guys as well. I've had comments on previous videos from people saying that it's the duty of guys to young single guys, to find a woman at 22 or 23 and settle down with them because going through a laundry list of girls, you know, every six months or whatever throughout your 20s is effectively tying up their reproductive capability so that they aren't. This is monogamy as a sexual redistribution strategy, right? Like that if it's one man to one woman, then it enables more men to have sex with more with the

equal number of women that they have. But yet, a challenge, man, this whole thing's got so messy. And who would have known, you know, who knew that downstream from women being able to quite rightly learn as much as they want and earn as much as they want and move up within organizations and gain status and buy houses and do stuff like that. Most women don't want to date a man that doesn't work. I think this was a start I learned from you that only like 10 or 15% of women would ever consider dating a man who's either part-time employed or not employed at all. All of these things are challenges. All of these things are really difficult. Yeah, and I think there's a question of both men and women recognizing certain, I don't like,

I mean, as much as this is, I hope this is possible, but men and women kind of recognizing certain biological like drives in terms of finding someone of higher status or a man, you know, being attracted to, you know, like a 40 year old man, you still pursuing, you know, 25 year old women or whatever. I've got some friends that I like that, yeah. Yeah, I mean, there's kind of two... There's kind of some things which we know, kind of, there's a tendency towards.

So if you... There's surveys with men from the ages of 20 to 40 or whatever, the age of the women that attracts you stays around the same. It's like, when they like 20, it's like 23 year old women or when they're 40, it's still 23 year old women or whatever. But it doesn't mean you have to actually do that. It doesn't mean it's morally a good thing for someone who's married person to just keep trading in for a younger partner.

There's something very shallow, immoral about that. And there's something, you know, our society in general, it reflects something in our society in general where everything is seen as disposable, including your, you're still able to, other way, you just throw it away and buy it. Essentially, buy a new one or replace it with something newer and shinier. In many cases, of these people, yeah, probably is buy another one. But I think it doesn't mean you have to actually live that and the culture, I think, makes a big difference as well. And for women, it's, you know, yeah, there may be an aspect of biology which kind of put moves into walls pursuing the highest status man in the community or who's accessible.

But is that always the, it should, it should cope the culture and encourage that? Or should it say, you know, there are other values that are important as well? Because I think those things do make a difference. It's going to be hard to make, don't go for, like, you don't deserve the best. Yes. Like, you know, this whole kind of, yeah, you're not, you're, you're worth slightly less than you think you are, is like the message to take from that. But there's this whole sort of don't settle, no settling, clapping back, be a boss bitch. These sorts of things don't lend themselves towards women being accepting

of, of challenges with a partner. And if you have finally managed to get a guy that is of the right status with everything else, I don't know if you can culturally, I don't think that the layering of completely ridding us of, how do you say, evolved cultural wisdom that a single relationship be attractive to many partners but choose one dispensing with that whilst also saying that you should get whatever you want I think that these two things provide a very difficult dating market specifically for women more so than for men. Yeah I mean I think we're moving the other way as well so it's I think we're still moving in the opposite direction where where you know it we're not moving back towards you know, more monogamous cultural,

moving more to a place where I think social media is an interesting one here, in terms of how it's like expanded the dating pool. So if you have an app like Instagram, it felt like, say, a relatively attractive woman who lives in like a small town or something. If she gains some kind of Instagram click, she's going to have access to a much wider pool of men, you know, low-key celebrities and whatnot, then she would and she would have the blue ticks like sliding into her, into a DM's and why not. So she's now got access to those potential partners in the way that she

like didn't wouldn't have had in the past. And I think's, as technology kind of increases, the purpose of technology and our economy now is to kind of create more choice for us, to expand our choice potential. And so there is kind of encouragement to kind of have it all to pursue the absolute top thing. But also, what's considered, what's considered status or high status, a lot of that is conditioned by the culture. So if we look at good looks, for example, there's a start from, so I think every decade

since the 1930s, every decade since the television age, people have attached more status to good looks in a partner than previously. So every decade since wherever TVs were went that mass market, people, you know, you, you, they're attracted to, to certain good looks, but it's also their status attached to looks as well. Why do you think that is? Because I think, you know, presentation. So, so presentation, so if you move from an economy where it's print based to where it's all on a screen, you have the rise of politicians like JFK, for example, telegenic charismatic, and I think that means then status becomes attached to those qualities

and that feeds over into dating as well, And I think dating apps have accentuated that even more. So when I was coming up in the mid 2000s, as like a teenager early 20 something, you know, I wasn't doing very well with the opposite sex at that time, but there was, I was never worried about something like my height. Like I'm like what, 5, 5, 11 I think. But it was never like, oh, you've got to be six foot or something like that. That, to me, is something that's been, it was always there a little bit, but it's been kind of formalized

from the culture around dating apps. And I think the same is true about certain types of good looks. So the importance of being good looking, the status attached to it, is more now, one, because things have happened through a screen often, the first impression, but also because women have more economic independence, so can freely choose more. They don't necessarily have to think about how much money the person

has if they're attractive, if they're physically attractive. Are there some intersecting groups of feminists at the moment. I don't really understand how all of feminism is fragmented, but I imagine that some groups are kind of happy with the direction in which things are going and others kind of want to turn things around. Have you looked at any of this? I mean, yeah, I don't think anyone's, I mean, I guess with activists, no one's ever happy with the direction things are going. I mean, I go in because otherwise you see some come an activist and what the hell do you do with your time then, if everything's

everything's fine already. You sound a neo-liberal then. But no, I think, yeah, it varies. So I mean sex positive feminists tend to see hookup culture as sexual freedom is broadly a good thing. And in some ways I think they're right. I think it's, I think, you know, I adhere to the basic kind of principle, liberal principles on that. I think people should be free to kind of get together with who they want. The radical feminist tends to be more of a, there's more of a kind

of anti-pornography campaign, anti-prostitution campaigns going on at the moment. I think is, yeah, again, I agree with aspects of that as well, I think. I don't think it's inherently good, just like the commodification of people's bodies and the idea that there's the pleasure of all that there is in life, I think there is like a deeper, a deeper reason to be with someone, for example. And then you have the traditionalists, the tradweng of the feminist movement, which is just like a pulled by everything. But yeah, that's their role, I suppose. But they're not completely wrong either. I mean, I think there's, as we've talked about, I think many women get a raw deal from hookup culture.

I also think there's something to be said. There's kind of a deeper meaning to being with someone in just like gratification. I think building like a connection, building a deeper bond, building something meaningful, I think, is I think there is an importance that I don't subscribe to the whole progressive thing that is ostensibly anti-capitalist, but yet treats other human beings as if they're completely, like, disposal when you can

just swap one person out for someone else. And sometimes there's much more value to be built in a bigger connection. It's like that story of the blind men and the elephant, isn't it? Some of them, everyone's touching a different part and someone has got a little bit of truth within their own different domain. Yeah, man, so I'm really, really fascinated with what we see next. Like what happens, how we move forward from this position with sort of increasing sexual liberation, but a biological compulsion to have a family,

you know, you have to be, no matter how culturally deep programs you think things need to get, you have to be an incredibly unique man or woman, I think, to make it to 50 without a partner or a family and say, look back and say that it was a good decision. That's not to say that there aren't people out there for whom that is correct, but to make it to that stage, you are an outlier, like by definition, your genes would not have made it through, so that is by definition an outlier perspective. But it seems that finding families and creating families is going to get more difficult. I don't know if you agree. that finding families and creating families is going to get more difficult.

I don't know if you agree. Yeah, I mean, I think some ways, the kind of, aside from the kind of, the actual in cells or whatever, I think the kind of dating environment now, it can also create like a, aura like a halo or like a number of insecurity around existing relationships

because there's so much choice potential on an app on. Could have always done a little bit better, you've got it in the back of your mind. Yeah, so there's that's in one of David Buses' books again which is talks about how when we're exposed to a partner who's more attractive than are other, when we're exposed to a partner who's more attractive than our other. One more of Spaces to a partner who's someone in the meat social media who's more attractive than our partner. We tend to become, you know, someone asks us questions

about them, we tend to give less committed answers to this partner. So, you know, it's not that serious or whatever. There's quite a big studies on this. And our satisfaction goes down with our current partner. So when we're exposed all the times, these images of so-called perfection, many of them not even real. Many of them are airbrushed and edited and whatever.

The same way we do with our work or whatever, that the grass is greener on the other side, that everyone else is living this amazing life. Our life is a real life, it's not perfect. Even the people on social media, that's not real, but there's this perception that it's real, at least to some extent, and we feel more disastafied with our current finance. So the environment now with social media, I think it creates this big rare of insecurity around existing relationships as well, makes that more like perilous. Shall I get in a relationship because there's more opportunity to cheat. One in three, what is it now? It's like 25% I think

of men on Tinder have partners already, like girlfriends or wives or marries. It's sort of shock, it's shocking in a way. There's like more opportunities to cheat. Wasn't there a you interviewed a lady on your podcast who went for a date directly opposite the apartment block where the man that she was on a date with lived with his misses and his misses came down and started shouting at them? Yeah, yeah, I mean, and that's the thing.

I think for me, I think they should speak to women more about their experiences on dates because I mean, every woman I've been out with in the last like a couple of years, I've kind of been curious and talked about their experiences on dating apps and they all have like a super weird story whether it's like a weird like catfish story or or um, yeah things like that where someone's married and then hides it, and or just like worse, where it's someone who's creepy or push you or something like that.

But, yeah, the internet allows people to conceal, conceal their intentions a bit more. What's porn doing to dating? I think porn's making men more apathetic to go out there and make the effort to meet someone. Because it's, I think that's kind of common sense really. I think that's fairly obvious that if someone has the, I think going out to meet new people, especially so I was someone who's very socially awkward when I was,

so from like 17 to about 22, I didn't have a girlfriend that lived in the countryside, had like a lot of social anxiety. It was very, I would say introverted shy, so I would be afraid to, I could not imagine going in, having a conversation with a woman or something. And I think, if you're in that situation, I think, there's already so much fear around going outside of stuff, and you're just kind of like pornography is another reason to kind of stay in. It takes care of one of your basic needs in the way that computer games will stimulate

you or there's one less reason to go outside to find simulation to find to engage with the world. It's like a simulation of the world. I think that's a big thing. And also I think it's a view of women, there's the obvious points about, I think you see the prevalence of men treating women in a certain way in the bedroom because they've seen something in like a porn film. And they aren't calibrated to where the woman is, you know, that's something they're enjoying and then, yeah, I mean, you hear lots of stories from women about this in the media, like the pornification of sex, I think that's a problem. And yeah, I mean, and just the standards,

so people think that this is the certain standard of beauty, what they see in like a porn film, it makes guys feel insecure on the one hand, so they think they're not the guy in the porn film who they don't know is taking like some flaggers or whatever, and on steroids and everything else. They think that that's the standard they have to live up to. So it makes them get like anxiety. And for women, it's like they feel the same way sometimes

about the porn actresses That men that's the kinds of women that men desire to look to that. I think it can be very harmful Yeah, I mean, I'm not sure what I think we do about it in terms of like Policy or like whether it should be restricted or anything, but I think it can be very harmful What about porn and sex addiction? You had a conversation about this right. What do you find out there? What about porn and sex addiction? You had a conversation about this, right? What do you find out there? Yeah, I mean, I think so I have a ADHD so I can get basically easily addicted to anything

But yeah, I mean it's with kind of um I'm not sure if I believe very sex addiction sex addiction, but I think it's more like dopamine addiction isn't it? So it's kind of, I take medication because there's like a lack of dopamine in my brain, the medication fills the dopamine gap in the neuro-transmitted. So, I mean, if you, yeah, I mean, we all like a dopamine hit. So I mean, that's what sex addiction is in a way, just that on steroids or something. Yeah, they looked at your guest looked at the pathways, I think, and couldn't find any similarities between the sort of typical addictions that people were finding with drugs and that from

porn or from sex. But as he said, I think it was Tiger Woods that used as the example, if you lose your night contract because you've cheated on your wife, that's one thing, but if you've lost your night contract because you've got an addiction, then you go to rehab and come back out. That's something quite different and you're able to get your sponsorship back.

All right, I think. Yeah, I mean, my girlfriend accuses me of using ADHD as an excuse, so it's like, I can't help but I've got any of that. I've got a medical, I've got a note from the doctor. Got disorder. Yeah, what about only fans? What do you think that's doing to men and women's views of each other? I mean, I think it's it's like I think it's a sad situation but not

not in kind of a privileged way. So I mean, I don't really feel like like shocked like oh my god, these these people are kind of you know doing of doing this stuff online. It's more just like, first of all, because I think there's an economic critique of it where women feel like the most valuable asset in society is to just take their clothes off for thirsty men, basically. But then, on the other hand, you've got, I think the situation on the part of many men is quite sad as well, because with with only fans it's not always just pornography. I mean you have men trying to form intimate connections with their quote unquote girlfriend and we'll regularly see the same people in this, the women who've talked about this often

have talked about how the men also want a conversation and want some kind of connection with someone that they don't have in the real world. So I mean, I think those two things are quite kind of depressing kind of commentaries on that like atomization of society. I think there's something else going on here with regards to women's views of men as purely commodities, purely sort of a wallet to open up. And I think that this trickles down. You see this in young girl culture, at least I do in nightclubs that girls are happy to bounce from table to table in a nightclub. That's what I do. I run nightclubs. And you see the girls that will move between the different

tables and take drinks from whatever and they'll stay on the table that's got the most bottles the biggest one And you think, well, yes, so part of this is just old school hierarchical resource acquisition and trying to get the guy that looks like he's got the most status because he's got the biggest table with the biggest bottles But I also think there's something else going on which is that when women are able to make astronomical amounts of money, you know, six figures a month from commodifying themselves, but taking the money out of the pocket of men, quite rightly, there's an argument on one side that says, well, men have been the gatekeepers for wealth for far too long and women are able to take this back and And you go, well, yeah, but is it your highest virtue to do it at sort of the lowest, most base level of what it is that you have to offer the world,

like, you know, prostitution's as old as time, but, and that's not to say that doing sex work online is the same as prostitution, but it's not a million miles away, you know? It's not a million miles away. And I think that there was this quote from a buddy of mine who said that just as porn is impacting men's expectations of women, only funds is impacting women's expectations of men. And that you mentioned it a couple of times, transient

transactional sort of relationship. What can I get out of you for what you want from me? It does seem to kind of encourage that commodification of relationships. Yes, definitely. And I think there are feminists, I think, who have a good critique of the only fast phenomenon. In the, like, you may go on to like only fans, and if you're a attractive woman, and make far more money than you make in your regular job, but you're also helping to perpetuate a culture where a woman's highest value is seen

just as her physical attractiveness. So you're kind of, you're not helping the sister, so to speak. I think that's a good critique of it from a feminist perspective that you're helping to perpetuate this stand and social stand where a woman feels often feels like her own value is how attractive she is, which does obviously harm women in the long term, you know, because they'll they'll

you see this the the quote unquote shelf life of women in modeling or you know music career or whatever or you know in the in in the Red Pill communities, whatever they talk of women, you know, over 35 as hitting the wall. And but, you know, it's an unpleasant term, but it speaks to how women lose many of the opportunities in our society when they lose their physical beauty. And, you know, I think only things

by don't you find perpetuated that idea that a woman's a woman's value is attached attached just to her physical attractiveness. Yeah, you are right. There's a an episode with Heather Hange and Brett Weinstein on Rogan. It was the first one they did together years ago now and they asked everybody to try and imagine somebody of the opposite sex who is beautiful but not hot and then someone that is hot but not beautiful. And the distinction that they made there was that a lot of modern culture, especially media, magazines, Instagram, so and so forth, they're signaling off hotness

not beauty and hotness wanes with age, whereas beauty can either stay stable or appreciate with age. You know, you think of someone that's got grace and poise and they've kind of got this timeless sort of look to them that stays over time, as opposed to someone that's hot, which is kind of quite obvious and in your face, and it's very much sort of that Instagram style. And again, with that, like I said this to with a surprisingly low amount of kickback from the internet, that if you're a woman who's made it to 30 and your primary source of value is still your looks, then you need to be quite careful

about how you spend the next five years. Because that is typically, that is only gonna go in one direction, no matter how much cosmetic surgery you get. And if that's, you need to have something else, think about an investment portfolio. If you had an investment portfolio and 100% of your investment was in one particular stock, you'd think, well, I probably could be a bit more hedged here. I probably could spread my

risk a little bit more effectively. And the same thing goes with girls. There is a fucking litany of personal development stuff out there for you so you can become spiritually comfortable with yourself outside of it. You can gain confidence, you can do whatever it is that you want to do. But only fans allows the race to the bottom of the brain stem to perpetuate. Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think the, on the one hand, the superficial standards in a way of, I think also what social media does and what the apps do is they create this archetype of someone who's attractive, both for men and women. And it's very crude.

So I think it emphasizes the chowd, it puts people in these boxes like you're the chowdall, it puts people in these boxes, like you're a chowdall, you're a loser or whatever. Whereas I think in the real world, what people are attracted to is not a conscious choice, I think it's way more complex. Someone cannot be like the quote-unquote 9 or 10 in looks or whatever, but they can be a very charismatic person, they can have a very magnetic person. I've got some really ugly mates that crush it with girls. They're absolutely crush it with girls. You think, well, you wouldn't have got picked up on the app, but they're like every single night, they're swarms of girls around

because they're funny, are charming or whatever. Yeah, it's like, they have the cool vibe or whatever, and they give off that kind of aura of being cool, I guess. If that isn't too vague, but I think social media gives this idea to men and women that there's one type of one version of success in a way. And then I think it is quite easy to get disartened by that because we're bombarded with, we're on our phones all day, we're bombarded with these images constantly and this idea of what the kind of, so whereas once we were bombarded with the idea of what the normal life is, the monogamous nuclear family, whatever

pick it, white pick it fence, now we're bombarded with this idea of what's attractive and if you're not living up to that. Again, women have had this for years, you're not living up to that, you should feel bad about of it, but I think it's also men are subjected to that similar pressure now as well, like if you're not the chair, if you're not these things, then yeah, you're kind of screwed. What's that really true? Yeah, what's happening with consent at the moment?

Because I remember a little while ago, maybe sort of two to five years ago, there was all of this sort of consent porn floating around in these weird, you must ask before you say hello, you must ask before you touch you must ask before that. What's that at? Have you seen any of this stuff? I mean, with that stuff, I mean, I think that stuff will, I think that stuff will always hit the roadblock of, like in terms of like people, there's a joke about having to sign consent forms before you sleep with some of the stuff. I mean, that's never going to happen because that isn't, anyone, that isn't how it goes

down, that isn't, just isn't how it goes, that isn't how it happens. And I don't think that's how most people, most women would want it to happen like that either. But I do think at the same time, I absolutely do think that like there is a lot of education to be done among men in terms of, again, if you, if, when I've spoken to girlfriends, people I've dated, have dated by their experiences

from dating apps and whatever, they all have one story of some pushy guy who doesn't, pretty much all of them have some sort of pushy guy who doesn't accept no for an answer. So there's something wrong in the culture, I think that that's still something women have to face. They don't feel they can report it, they don't feel like they can necessarily come forward

about that. I think there's two things going on. I think the attempt to formalize it through, affirmative, written consent, or whatever it is. I think that's ridiculous, but I do think there's, they need to, you know, more repercussions for men who don't, you know, who do push the boundaries and don't accept no for answer, but I also think men need to be, there is a kind of rape culture to some extent,

I think, in certain fraternities of men. What does that mean? I think there's kind of an assumption, I think, among some end that, you know, yeah, I mean, I heard from the pickup community years ago that the, you know, women have, some women have rape fantasies, so there's like, it's okay to kind of to push it and, you know, no means, you know, just means not yet and this kind of stuff, which I think is, that's very dangerous to be telling especially socially uncalibrated or dark triad dark triad men this kind of information They they would feel like they have a free bastard sexually assault someone

But I just think there's in terms of just from speaking to like female friends So I feel like there is an assumption among some men that they can just keep pushing it and they won't be really any repercussions if they do that because few women would actually do want to go take these things further. Yeah, man, that makes me really uncomfortable, the fact that pretty much every girl that you know, and I think a lot of the ones that I do as well have had a situation where this happens. I wonder, so David, David Busse in that bad man and anyone who hasn't read it needs to go and check it out because it's fucking awesome read.

He talks about the fact that most men aren't like this, but you have a small minority of men that complete the majority of offenses. And the danger is that you nerf relationships a small minority of men that complete the majority of offences. The danger is that you know for relationships to the stage where all of the excitement, which comes from the uncertainty, right? The reason that people get excited is the fact that she doesn't know if you're actually interested or not, and you don't know if she's interested, or not, that's where the spark comes from, at least in part. If you get rid of that, even if you decide against having the form and the fingerprint ID to say, yes, I want to have sex, if you do have enough to get rid of that

excitement, again, desire will always win out. And you're going to lose. So I don't know how much you can culturally sort of get rid of the of the real bad actors, you know, if you've got someone that's narcissistic, psychopathic and high in macchiveleonism, like I think those people are just gonna fuck the game no matter what I don't I don't want to call anyone a lost cause, but can you just feel a little bit like that? Yeah, I mean, I don't think you ever like eliminate Yeah, the propensity of a segment of people to try and take advantage of, you know, people try and take those people and try and take

advantage of any situation, you know, if there's money there, they would see it if there's they feel like they can get away with sexually insulting someone, they will do that. Yeah, I mean, I think that's last of a least, basically. But I do think there's an onus on the rest of us as men to kind of cool that out when we see it. I do think a lot of men are good at this already. I do think there is that kind of, in the street or something, if people see someone has a woman men often will step in

and intervene be I think doing that I think can be can be a positive like if you if your friend is is acting in a way that's sleaze you're whatever like calling them out. I also mean learning basic social skills so being socially calibrated so that so as David busses in in his book is so they have more empathy from the woman's perspective. So you ask your three male friends how does it feel when yeah So as David Busce says in his book is so they have more empathy from the woman's perspective so you're asking your three male friends, how does it feel when, yeah, what was this experience? How did that feel like to you? Because you know, I've been with a girlfriend in like a bar or

something and someone's approach and I just thought it was like a normal conversation and she was like, I was really creepy and it's like asking why? Because I think our men and women you often don't see the other persons perspective. Totally different worlds. Yeah, we've just been different planes. Yeah, dating stuff. So I think that would be, that would be something like we can do as kind of guys in that situation. I've definitely seen a big change in the way that young guys talk about relationships and girls in general and sort of the culture. So I've been in lads chats of one former

and other whether that be like Blackberry Messenger, BBM pin back in the day or WhatsApp chats for kind of the last 10 years or so. Running club nights constantly having young guys in there who are at university, who are liberated sexually, who are liberated sexually, who have parties and girls on tap and hearing the sort of language and seeing it come out of myself as well.

And, you know, like the movement over time, where the over-tune window of acceptable speeches shifted from and to, perfect example of this, we used to have cards that all of the boys had to have in their wallet at all times, and it said, your fit come to voodoo, and it was a free entry pass, but they could only give it to girls, and there was another one that said, your mint come to skin, that was a bit much easy.

And someone posted it in one of our group chats today and said, look what I just found in an old wallet, and a bunch of people said, fuck, keen hell mate, you wouldn't be able to do that now. Wouldn a bunch of people said, fuck, can you hell, mate, you wouldn't be able to do that now. Wouldn't be able to have, wouldn't be able to have that now. And it is a little bit tongue in cheek,

but the fact that you have people who aren't culture warriors, they're not bothered about keeping their finger on the pulse of the fucking bleeding edge of what's happening with ideology and identity politics and intersectionality, but they are aware that there has been some sort of a reckoning that has

happened. You know, whether it be me to, whether it be Jimmy Sable, then sort of trickling down to the Epstein and the Weinstein and so on and so forth, they're aware of that. And these are just fucking salt of the earth dudes who are now in the late 20s looking back on their time at university and realizing, wow, times have changed in the period of less than 10 years. Yeah, I mean, I think there's kind of a, I mean, yeah, I mean, I think on the one hand, there's, I think it's good that these bad guys have been exposed. There was people getting away with so much for so long in terms of how they treated women.

I think it's good to have been exposed. But I think some of the media kind of interpretation of some of this stuff is a bit overblown from both sides. So I think there is this idea propagated on progressive social media that all women just walk around in fear of being assaulted at all times. I think that's an exaggeration. But I also think that there's an aspect of the kind of manuscript, which exaggerates how difficult it is to go and start a conversation with a woman nowadays, because, are you going to be accused of sexual assault? People actually know who

go out and do date and go on date stuff who are socially calibrated and aren't weird. They never have these experiences issues really because there is a sweet spot where it's like just be cool. Here's what I keep on thinking. I keep on thinking that the vast majority of people making these comments about the real world only exist on the internet, but because they're the loudest voices on the internet, people like us that exist in the real world as well, that maybe sort of have one foot in either and straddle it, I like, oh fuck, dude, did you hear about, did you hear about the fact that 17% of people don't

want it? And it's like, yeah, but those 17% of people don't leave the house. That's the 17% of people that have never had anybody come up to them ever. And I've got, I've got a friend who is a very fucking well-rounded young guy. And I was out with him not long ago and he reiterated that to me.

He said that to me. He was like, dude, like, you know, sort of do we've getting a bird at the moment? I'm going through a bit of a dry patch or whatever. And I was like like, dude, like, you know, sort of, do we've getting a bird at the moment? I'm going through a bit of a dry patch or whatever. And I was like, well, man, like, you know, there's the chicks over there and chicks, and he's like, no, man, you can't go up and talk to someone. It's dangerous.

And I said, you are, you've spent too much time in the internet, my friend. You've spent too much time on the internet. Yeah, that is a good example, I think, of like Twitter mind or where, so I try not to use social media too much because on the one hand you've got, there's Instagram where it's like this idea of perfection in terms of the photos and then on Twitter it's this, it can be this weird activist space where any kind of social faux pas, people like a load of obsessive to it, just on that all day, we're jump on it

and take it to shreds. And that's happened to me like a bunch of times. But then yeah, if you go out, if you go out to a bar or something, or if you just go out into the real world, or if I have tried to have friends not in that space to not engage in politics, not on Twitter all the time. And when I'm with those people, it's I in politics, not on Twitter all the time.

And when I'm with those people, I just remember, it's like coming up for air, I remember that actually in the real world, it's, yeah, common sense tends to prevail and people have a fairly reasonable idea of how to approach these situations. Again, yeah, there's the percentage of people who don't, but I mean, I wouldn't be friends with those people who don't. But I mean, I wouldn't be friends with those people anyway. So what about masculinity? Do you think, obviously, there's been a bit of a reckoning like masculinity's been an analogy,

or it's been on the ancillary end of this reckoning around me too, and men in positions of power using that to get themselves access, sexual access, and abusing it and stuff like that. But it does feel, at least to me, like, that's left a bit of a void for masculinity that men are now struggling to try and find a society acceptable, wholesome, but also desirable

masculine cliche for them to, a road for them to walk down. Yeah, I think there is like a lot of, it is kind of, it's like a cliche to say it, but it is a confusing time to be a man, basically a younger man, I think there is a cliché to say it, but it is a confusing time to be a man, particularly a younger man, I think, in many ways within the culture, because on the one hand, you'll fed this narrative that masculinity is toxic, and I mean, so I've even read things about so yesterday I was reading something and it talked about how gym memberships have gone up 40% between 2015 and 2018 or something.

And when I read that, I thought, that's great. I mean, more people are taking care of themselves as because we have an obesity problem. So it's a good thing if more people join the gym. But it is framed as this kind of toxic obsession with the self. And then I've seen it framed as toxic masculinity. And yeah, I mean, it be of course if when it goes to a certain point

But generally it's like a positive thing to Work out so I like I find it somewhere I can switch off from the writing and Meet a different kind of crowd of people that I've meet through that journalism and it's just like it's just that it's just a great A great environment to be and it's loads of, it's just a great environment to be in. It's loads of positive things come from that. But it is framed as toxic and, you know, toxic masculinity. So, men, I think, often have fed this narrative

that masculinity is inherently toxic, which I think can be very damaging. But then, they go out onto the sexual marketplace, they go out to a bar, they go on to an app, and it's the guys who are stereotypically masculine, which tend to be doing better when it comes to dating. So there's this kind of cognitive distance, like what is going on here. So when I was in my late teens, I was into like emo and pump music and stuff, where it's not the most masculine dudes like lamenting their lost like sweet hearts and stuff. And I absorbed and vibed the idea that that was

how you should put your heart on your sleeve. That's how you... That sounds like a taking back Sunday song or something doesn't it? Yeah, I mean I'm sure there is a song from that genre. I have, it entitled that, but I thought that was the way you kind of, like, that's the way you, this is the way you get girls, you like, go your head black and well, I nail vines and be like a sensitive, like, sensitive, like sensitive.

Jared leto, Jared leto gets the birds mind. Haha. But then those people have status though. So that was what I was misunderstanding. So if they're in the world famous like Emo Band, they have status so they can dress as a, you know, a chocolate chip cookie and they still get late. But it was, but the reality, like,

if you look at the evidence, like I went out a lot, I spent a long time at university and then I was in Vegas for like a while and I was going out a lot and You see what what what how it goes down really you see the people who these the women you find attractive go home with and it isn't the the sense of nice sensitive emo guy is Extraverted socially dominant whatever not always the chat necessarily just the person with the status in the environment Say the club environment for the person who has the dance floor table, whatever.

And I think that was really confusing to me as a man, because it's like, I felt like I was being lied to by the mainstream. Progressive to the lines, me and saying that it was just a blank slate and men and women just want the same things. And even the mainstream itself was still wedded to this old style, old-fashioned narrative that just don't worry about it, you'll meet someone in fate will take care of it like in the Hollywood film where the nerd, the nice man, the nice fellow gets the woman in the end.

So I think it's very confusing, both of those things. But there hasn't been, as far as I can see, a solution. There hasn't been something new that's come through to fill that void. It's like, yeah, I can accept, everyone can accept, should be able to accept, that men using status and resources to get abusive access to sex in return for them doing something in the workplace is like fucking reprehensible. But we also have to concede that there are certain elements of masculine energy, which are inherently attractive to women. Okay. So you've thrown the baby, the bathwater and the fucking baths

gone out the window, like what are we left with? Yeah, I mean, so yeah, there is a contradiction in that lamenting the on the one hand, it's, you know, we lament the abuse of men in powerful positions exploiting that position to, I don't mean like Weinstein necessarily because that's a rape situation, but I mean, where men in high-powered positions use that position to get with young, much younger women, much more attractive women than they are. And that's kind of everybody is exploiting everyone in some ways. And again, I'm not talking about harassment or things like that, but it's like,

you often have the women who are going to these nightclub say in that environment just to find to these tables to find the high status men because they will benefit economically and increase their own social status if they're on their Instagram. And then the men are using their own leverage, their status, their finances, their... Even just their contacts in the club. In Vegas, you also had a layer of entrepreneurs in that respect who didn't have any money, but was still beyond how these are made in Taylor's, because of connections and stuff, which was quite interesting. But then because they'd have the status,

they would now kind of, they would now meet more women than they would if they just stayed in that usual economic role. So I mean, everyone's exploiting everyone in some respects. I think it's, we don't really hear that because everything today is framed as like a presser, a press, and it's his binary, whereas in some situations, yeah, people are getting different things

out of the situation. Yeah, it's too simplistic. And to split things off like that, it just... Yeah, it doesn't take in any of the nuances of human beings, basically. The men are not just like this and women are not just like this, and women are not just like this, but sometimes we are selfish, sometimes we see to improve our ancestors, sometimes yeah, and no one's inherently virtuous. There's like, version Russell's quote about, the fallacy of the superior virtue of the oppressed, is like, I agree that women have been oppressed by a kind of

patriarchal structure, superstructure for much of the last kind of few thousand years, but that doesn't mean that there aren't, you know, that doesn't mean that they're all men of bad, men of traction, whatever, and that women are inherently virtuous. It's obviously more complicated than that. It's the same theme that I'm seeing with pretty much everything that social deconstructionists that want to completely append absolutely everything are doing it at such a pace that we can't work out, which is baby and which is bathwater.

It's like, look, did I need that bit of society? That nope too late, it's gone, it's in the incinerator, I'm fuck, I might have wanted that. That we might have been, religion might have been useful. That there's an increasing number of people that are cultural Christians now because they're fucking long for a weekly service with people from their local community that helps them feel or in a connection to a higher power. But we threw that out of the, and it's like, okay, so let's throw out of the window masculinity, let's throw out of the window masculinity,

let's throw out of the window, all of this stuff. And we should do that with our parallel man because fucking having to reinvent all of the shit that we already discovered is, it's a real fuck on and it's highly inefficient. Yeah, and there's an arrogance to it as well. So we see our society now and think that we'll just prevail forever you know we can throw as much shit as it is one um but it will

just be fine you know we'll always live in a liberal democracy we'll always be able to but it's like no you can't actually throw enough at it and then it's deposed for something much worse where you no longer have the freedom to criticize that system. Yeah, I think we're in a place now where the West is kind of denigrated and like I have many criticisms of capitalism, for example, but I feel relatively lucky to have been born in this country and to grow up here. I don't feel. And I grew up working in a working class home.

I wasn't someone from a privileged background. I still feel relatively fortunate to grow up here. And there's a weird deconstructionism around gender roles, specifically. So, I mean, on the one hand, you know, I think, gender is nature, I know, sure, I think there's many roles that women have been pushed into for the advantage of men, so that, you know, for the service of men, basically. But at the same time, I find it's really weird to me that the main narrative in that liberal politics is this blank slate ideology where there's no such thing as masculinity

and femininity, it's all a social construct because I feel like at the same time everyone knows in their dating life that that's not true because there has to be some polarity there. There's the old thing about that opposite to track, there's there has to be this polarity there. It's like, you know what femininity is as a, as a heterosexual man. I know what femininity, I may not be able to describe femininity, necessarily, but I know it when I see it.

Like that, that, that famous, that famous quote. And I think most women, it's the same, but we have to, we pretend otherwise. I think because, I don't know, I think because if we acknowledge that there's these things that are inherently different, people fear that then it won't be different, but equal. It would be different, but therefore you must, if you're a woman, you must stay in the kitchen or you must stay at home, whatever. And I think that's inevitable, though, isn't it?

Because in a recent past, that was what men used that information to do. They used the differences between men and women to a press woman. Danger of overshooting, man. Really, really got to be careful with that stuff. But James Bloodworth, ladies and gentlemen, if people want to keep up to date with what you're doing, where should they go? So you're following me on Instagram at james.bloodworth. And also Twitter is j underscore bloodworth. Awesome. Cheers dude. Cool, this was fun. Thank you. you