Modern Wisdom - 4 Men Share How They Hit Rock Bottom (and got out) - Dr K, Joe Hudson & Connor Beaton - #1159

Episode Date: October 5, 2026

Expect to learn: What it takes to climb the mountain of success as a man. The catalysts that propel people forward to make real and lasting change. How to come back from rock bottom. and much more… Guests: Joe Hudson is a coach, entrepreneur and a podcast host. Dr K is a psychiatrist, Harvard Medical School instructor, co-founder of Healthy GamerGG, Twitch streamer and a YouTuber. Connor Beaton is a men’s life coach, founder of ManTalks and an author focusing on men’s wellness and personal growth. Sponsors: Get a Free Sample Pack of LMNT’s most popular flavours with your first purchase at https://drinklmnt.com/modernwisdom Sign up for a free trial from Shopify at https://shopify.com/modernwisdom Get 35% off your first subscription on the best supplements from Momentous at https://livemomentous.com/modernwisdom Get the brand new Whoop 5.0 and your first month for free at https://join.whoop.com/modernwisdom See discounts for all the products I use and recommend: ⁠⁠https://chriswillx.com/deals⁠ Get ChatGPT to explore ideas, solve problems, and learn faster at ⁠https://chatgpt.com Timestamps: (00:00) How Can Men Actually Win the Game?(11:33) Do We Choose When We Hit Rock Bottom?(25:01) Was Love Island Chris’ Rock Bottom?(33:53) The Moment Joe Knew He’d Hit Rock Bottom(43:18) How Karma Led Dr K to Rock Bottom(54:56) When Self-Hatred Becomes Rock Bottom(01:03:10) The Beauty of Knowing You’ve Made It(01:15:13) What Does Karma Actually Mean?(01:23:59) Is the Work Ever Done?(01:32:33) Why You Need a Mountain to Climb(01:40:18) Is Awareness the Key to Conquering Desire?(01:54:22) Why Confronting Your Shame Changes Everything(02:11:54) Is Rock Bottom Really About Shame?(03:09:13) Where to Find Everyone Extra Stuff: Get my free reading list of 100 books to read before you die: ⁠https://chriswillx.com/books⁠ Try my productivity energy drink Neutonic: ⁠https://neutonic.com/modernwisdom⁠ Episodes You Might Enjoy: #577 - David Goggins - This Is How To Master Your Life: ⁠lnkfi.re/SN-Goggins⁠ #712 - Dr Jordan Peterson - How To Destroy Your Negative Beliefs: ⁠lnkfi.re/SN-Peterson⁠ #700 - Dr Andrew Huberman - The Secret Tools To Hack Your Brain: ⁠lnkfi.re/SN-Huberman⁠ - Get In Touch: Instagram: ⁠https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx⁠ Twitter: ⁠https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx⁠ YouTube: ⁠https://www.youtube.com/modernwisdompodcast⁠ Email: ⁠https://chriswillx.com/contact⁠ - Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

People of the UK and Ireland, I'm coming to you live. Imagine that, me on stage in your city. Dublin is completely sold out, but everywhere else has got limited tickets left, and you can get yours now at chris Williamson.com. This is a custom-built live show. I absolutely adore it. I've spent over a year working on it. So if you're a fan of everything, Modern Wisdom,

come and see me on stage this October around the UK and Ireland, Chris Williamson.com. This is kind of like my Super Bowl. I hope the people that are watching realize just how much heat is in the room. because between you guys, you've been the basically top coaches or the SOS call to some of the best athletes, biggest musicians, CEOs in the world, plus probably a few tens of millions of normal people as well. It's a real Avengers assemble of personal growth. So thank you for being here. This is awesome.

I've been looking forward to this. So there's an idea from Naval Ravikant where he says the reason to win the game is to be free of it. So I wanted to talk about how people, especially men, can win the game. Let's say that I'm someone who wants to maximize everything, achieve as much as possible, pull all of the ambition out of myself that I can. I want to wrangle every bit of motivation, discipline, raw, masculine, crush the world energy that I can. How do you guys come to even think about that? How should I achieve that?

Okay. Let's go. Y'all are looking at me. Yeah, so, you know, I was, yesterday you brought up this kind of idea that, okay, you like climb to the top of the mountain, and then you kind of have to go back down. right? And so I'm sure that Joe and Connor probably have experienced all the same thing. So there's like a, there's one set of challenges when you're nothing in life. And then as you go through the process of becoming something, you arrive at a different set of challenges. So, you know, I work

with so many people who have difficulty finding a partner because they're a nobody. And then once they become a somebody, then they have difficulty finding a partner who wants them as a to what they've become. So I think it's a really good framing. And my kind of overall take is actually like, so it's sort of a, so there are things that we do that are adaptive and then they become maladaptive. So that's the process of growing up. One of my mentors once told me growing up is abandoning what works over and over and over again because it worked back then. And unless you get rid of it, you're going to run into trouble. And I think the interesting thing about this framing of like climbing to the top of the mountain and then kind of having

this different set of challenges is I think there's actually just one trajectory. The problem is that when we focus on certain things, right? So when we focus on willpower and discipline and all this kind of stuff, it actually creates problems in the future. So I think that there is a way when you kind of say like tunneling through the bottom, you know, like you can you can kind of bypass it all. but what I've kind of found is that there is a set of things that you can do to become materially very successful but usually doing those things

yeah trying to win the game like the guy at the bottom doing nothing guy at the top won something guy at the bottom transcended the game and then fuck the game through the middle yeah so I'd say I'd actually say that there's fuck the game is is upward so so

because I think that this is somewhat true. Like so I, I'm sure these guys do, I mean, I know they do. But, you know, if you work with some very successful people, they have different challenges. They, they don't, they're not necessarily peaceful. They're not necessarily contented. And then we think about this thing like, okay, if I don't have ambition, then how am I going to achieve? But then if you use ambition to achieve, then you're stuck with this programming, which is ambition oriented. Yes. And then you move the goalposts, and then you want more. And then you want more. And then you want. want more and it's never enough. And so I think like my take on this and I'd love to hear what you all think is like, yeah, this sort of works. But as we know, there's a problem that you end up with at the top that you then have to solve. And I actually think fuck the game is the way to go. Like that that there's one basic way. And a simple example of this is people think that contentment is something that you get from the outside. Like I'm hungry. I eat something and then I'm content. but there's piles of spirituality, which have now been supported by piles of neuroscience,

that contentment itself is a cultivatable skill. And that as you cultivate contentment, there are ways to motivate yourself that are not hunger, that are not ambition. And so I think a lot of times what we use is like toxic fuel to get to the top. And then we achieve what we want. And then we're kind of stuck in this like polluted environment. we've made all these kinds of sacrifices and we've programmed ourselves in a way that leaves us very unhappy.

And I bet these, I mean, I already know, but like I'm sure if you listen to our personal stories, you will see some version of that. Everybody is at some point on this mountain. Absolutely, 100%. Desperately trying to shout at people who are a base camp walking toward the mountain. Like, no, no, go back.

Fuck off. There's bodies on Everest. Yeah. There's bodies up there. Just littered, man. I mean, I do think that there's a bit of a quagmire that people experience when they're, when they're dealing with this, I want to win the game, right? Like, if you really want to win the game, replicate what so many other people have done

to make the money, right, to get the Bugatti's. But the problem that a lot of people have that I've seen is that they try and get to the top of the mountain by using what I call dark motivation or the toxic fuel, toxic fuel, right? Shame-based motivation. And so they're in pain, they're suffering, they hate themselves, they don't like their lives. And that becomes the fuel for them to then say, I want out of here. And the problem is that it really works and it can really work well, but it doesn't often

lead to the type of satisfaction and fulfillment that people are ultimately seeking. The reconciliation within of, well, not only do I want to have money, but I also actually want to like myself and I want to like my life. and I want to like my partner and my kids. And so part of the challenge that people have to bump up against is what are you going to do with the accumulation of the pain that exists inside of you that is trying to drive you towards that perceived success that will alleviate you from the pain that you're carrying and experiencing? Not to just rely on Naval Rabakant for the entire direction of this fucking podcast, but he also has a line which is it is, far easier to achieve our material desires than to renounce them. Like if you feel unrequited, the world hasn't recognized me. I've always been a piece of shit or I've been the person that

people have stepped on or ignored or whatever. And I have all of this pain and I have all of this trauma and I want to become something. Is it not quicker to go up and over the mountain than to go straight through it? Not in my experience. I think you can do some pretty amazing things. but it usually requires some pretty severe hardships. Like the guys that, and I was one of those guys, I'm like, let's go to the top. And then the guys that I work with it's let's go to the top. And usually when men come to work with me, they're up at the top.

And then they're like, oh, shit, this wasn't what I thought I was going to. I still hate myself. I still feel like a piece of shit. I can't enjoy the money that I've made. Oh, I won the award, and it feels hollow and empty. went home that night and got super stoned and drank myself to sleep because, you know, I still feel hollow inside. And so I don't know if it's about quickness. It's about how are you going to transmute the suffering that your life is carrying, that you are carrying inside of

yourself into, to alchemize it into something more meaningful for you and hopefully for the world. Like that's the function of what initiation was always supposed to be, but I'm curious to hear your, What do you think about all that? So I have a slightly different trajectory, and so my top of the mountain was like spiritual awakening. So I dedicated to that early and just like from 20 years old, I just like that was the top of my mountain, which was its own hell.

Like there was, there's the hell of like trying to make a shit ton of money and being a winner that way. This was its own particular hell. So that, just to say that my perspective is a little bit different on it. I think the couple things that I see in there is that you ask the questions like how do you work with it?

The number one thing is if you're looking at the mountain, asking yourself what it is actually that's going to work at that point. What is it that I actually really want? And ask not just like whatever your answer is, let's say it's money and say, okay, cool, if I have money, is it done? We're finished? And then if that's not it, no, I also want something else. Okay, is that done?

Are you finished then? And keep on asking that question to find actually what the core of the thing that you want is. I think a lot of people start charging up that mountain because they were told to want it, because they thought to want it, not because they actually really, like, deeply looked at. Is this the thing that I want at my core? The second thing I think is really useful is usually people go for the thing that they see as possible, and they often think the thing that they really want is impossible. So I don't know how many billionaires I worked with that are like, yeah, we could make, you know, AGI or we can make a $10 billion market cap company. But like actually having a happy company, no, that's not possible. Or have a happy marriage, maybe that's not possible.

Or having happy kids, that's not possible. Something that actually feels much more within reach, much less extraordinary. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So really look at the things in your mind that you're telling yourself it aren't possible and really take a deep dive into the, like what makes. makes that so, like really take a look at it. So I think that that is like the best thing to do if you're like looking up the mountain is not to decide whether you're going up or whether you're going through. It's to ask yourself, what is it that I actually most deeply want here and really

spend time with that question? My experience is that question in itself will drive you through the mountain instead of up and over the mountain. I think I think it's also missing a, like the image is missing something because for me, there was no ascension. of the mountain, it was just bouncing off the bottom, you know? And I think that that's for a lot of young men, especially in today's culture and climate, they don't even feel like they're climbing the mountain. They feel like, oh, I can't even get to base camp. You know, I'm just constantly life, relationships, whatever it is, I'm just bouncing off the bottom. And for me, that was my case. I was just lost. I wasn't particularly good at anything and ended up bottoming out in my late 20s

and having a kind of rock bottom moment that then put it. me at that place at the base of the mountain that asked me that question. And so I think it kind of depends on the man and the individual and where they are. You know, it's like, do they even need to, do they need to get to the base of the mountain? Do they need to get to that place where they can even ask themselves that question? I mean, how many how many guys use that rock bottom moment to either be crushed by it or propelled by it? I have to assume that a lot of you guys have being on the receiving end or maybe being the men yourselves that get the call, the SOS call of like,

okay, this is, like, this is it. This is me peering over the abyss moment. What the fuck do I do? Like, I don't even know how to get started. So yeah, I think both of those things. That's the most exciting moment. Yeah, I was going to, so, so interesting because I hear my thoughts coming out in two different ways.

Yeah. So, you know, one of the things that's really scary is, I mean, I work with some people who are pretty successful. but 60% of people that I've worked with have not been able to afford a dime. And so I work with a lot of like regular, like basically losers. And I own that term. It used to be what I was, arguably still am. And one of the scary things I hear about these stories, right?

So I think all three of us, there's the spiritual hell, there's the hitting rock bottom, failing out of college. Take your pick. One of the scary things is... Love Island. were you on Love Island You win You didn't know this? I didn't know this

Oh God I've derailed everything Season one They're reverse uno right out the gates Islander won Season 1 first person I think we should at some point In this conversation Really just actually try to have the competition

For like the lowest low Between the four of us I was just thinking I would I would love to hear everybody's stories Like I mean I know them Let's if everyone's comfortable Well, I'm happy to fucking play.

Yeah, can I talk about rock bottom for a second? So here's the scary thing. So when I work with people, we hear things like this, right? Like you hit rock bottom. And then one of the things, really scary things that I see is a romanticization of rock bottom. People that I work with, they long for that final crash that will break them. Like we're talking abhorrent suicidality or everything that they are on. on the outside that is weak will be sloughed away and a phoenix will rise from the ashes.

And they long for this thing. And this is the really scary thing about rock bottom. Rock bottom doesn't exist. Rock bottom is just the lowest point that you happen to go before you turn around. Oh yeah. Rock bottom can have a basement. And in the basement that can be a trap. You can go lower and you can go lower and you can go lower.

Right. So for people who are like hear these stories. So interesting. We all see the value of rock bottom and I think we're going to hear about that. rock bottom is the moment that you decide to turn around. It is not this like artificial thing that one day, oh, if I fuck up my life more and if I fuck it off more, one day I will hit that rock bottom and then I'm going to roll the dice and I will be a god or I will be broken.

And so they wait for that day. There's this longing for it, this hunger that like, oh, like I want to be tested, right? And if I fall apart, I fall apart, that's fine. And in doing so, they actually fuck themselves. because that day will never come. And what Rock Bottom is, and I know this is why I wanted to get this out before we hear the stories.

My prediction is we're going to hear this from Love Island too. Right? There's one day that you decide. Rock Bottom is a choice, not a place. But I do think it speaks to the cultural absence of any type of initiatory process for people to test themselves emotionally,

spiritually, psychologically, And in the absence of that, the psyche and ultimately the identity and our sense of self still longs for that. So I agree 100%. I do think that it is a choice point of, and that's what I say to guys a lot. It's like you don't have to keep going down and keep sabotaging down. At some point, you just have to take a choice. You have to make a choice to say, I'm going to start like, this is it.

This is ultimately it. And I think sometimes people are waiting for that choice to me, made for them. And that's, that's part of the challenge. You know, it's part of the challenge. It's like, well, maybe some external force will make this decision for, maybe if it gets bad enough, then I'll just magically stop. And it's like, no, no, you'll stop when you choose to. You'll, you'll shift when you choose to, when you've really, it's like the story of the dog on the porch, right? It's like there's an old man sitting on the porch with his dog and the mailman comes to deliver the mail every single day. And every day the mailman shows up and the dog is

whimpering and whimpering and whimpering and finally the mailman says, why is the dog so, like, it seems like the dog is in pain. And the old man on the porch says, yeah, the dog's been laying on a nail. And the male man's like, well, why doesn't he move? And he's like, I guess he'll move when it gets painful enough. And he decides. And I think that for most people, they're sitting on the nail. And that was me to a tea, you know, it's like I just didn't want to address the things that were causing me to sabotage and spiral and pull me down. There's a nuance. I think there's wisdom absolutely in what both of you are saying.

There's this weird nuance. It's the word choice. I was going to. On some level, there's like a choice and it feels like a choice. The other thing that I think people, when you do hit rock bottom and you have that experience, your identity gets cracked. Who you think you are changes. and there's a choicelessness in that as well.

So there is a bit of grace that occurs. And so as there is a way in which you can, this is really geeking out, right? But as there is a way that you can say there is no rock bottom, there's also a way of saying like there is a choicelessness of hitting that rock bottom. And I think the thing that gets missed in all of it is the, I'm responsible, I'm responsible, I'm responsible, I'm responsible,

I'm responsible is often slows down the process. As opposed to what? Who is responsible if you're not responsible? Yeah, that's a good one. So if I, I'm excited. I'm looking at the cross-legged side of the table. Okay, so so, so many thoughts. And I can't.

Meditators. Here's what my first experience of stepping into this room was in intimidation. My next experience was sort of feeling, camaraderie. And now what I'm feeling is that there is something that I know that I don't know how to share. There is like an, the answer is on this table. I feel, I feel this very strongly. This nut to crack. Like the answer is here, but I actually don't think that any of us can give it by ourselves. And what I heard from, from you, Connor, is like, you know, you have to make the choice. And I kind of said this, right? You have to, you have to turn, think, like the rock bottom is the

moment that you decide to come up. And then you were saying, yeah, you have to make a choice. And then my first question, how the fuck do you make that choice? And I hear what Joe is saying, because the really scary thing about this, what I, I mean, this thing I think is like sort of, even rock bottom, I think is on the way up. Yeah, that's why. That's what earlier I said, I was, I'm excited when somebody has that call. Because you've already done some of the work.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So there's this weird, like, I. I think that the diagram makes sense, but my sense is like, this is something that we don't talk about. I don't know how to explain. Like, my answer is karma. Like, my answer is like, this is meant to happen. And that doesn't mean we can get into like destiny and stuff.

I don't mean destiny, but I'll maybe share a little bit about. So I have a question that I'll toss out and then you guys decide if we want to get to biographies or not. But, you know, how does that choice get made? Right. What is that catalyzing factor? Because when I think about my job, my job is like people come into my office and I'm sure y'all's is basically the same. Right. And it's like, how do we get this choice to happen? And there's a part of me that even recoils against the word quicker because I think quicker is feeding into the problem that is going to cause you dissatisfaction at the top.

Right. Right. Just like the can you have to choose it also can cause you problem. Exactly. Exactly. Because what's going to happen is, You say, okay, you have to make the choice, right? So a thousand people are going to wake up tomorrow and they're going to say, Rock Bottom is when I make the choice and they're not able to make the choice. I guess I haven't hit Rock Bottom yet. Well, or we're telling them, right? So they listen and they say how, and then they're not able to make that choice. And then they feel even worse about themselves because Rock Bottom is the moment that you make a choice.

And look at me, me, fucker, I can't do it. Other people are doing it. but I can't do it. What's wrong with me? And so I get the choice thing. I mean, and so there's something here that we're all circling around the drain. And I'm hoping that we can get. Is there a better framing than making a choice at Rock Bottom?

Is there some other way to look? If I give a stab at the answer to the question, like what is it besides, what is it besides choice? To me, it's self-awareness. If you understand yourself enough, just like if I am, looking at a watch that's broken and I'm like, oh, how, let me understand the watch. Let me understand the watch. At some point I'm going to understand it enough where fixing it is going to be obvious. The thing that's going to happen is going to be obvious. I can only say that that worked for me and other people, but I suspect there's other ways too. But my experience is when people start

really recognizing how their mind works, what self-abuse pattern looks like. That looking for the bottom is just another way of having self-abuse. telling myself, I have to have choice is just another form of self-abuse. When they start recognizing the self-abuse and the results of that self-abuse, my experience is then grace, surrender. Something happens where it's beyond them because the same way it's just like that click that happens in your mind and you're like, oh, this is how you fix the watch. That's my experience of it.

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I think in a way, I'll speak for myself, my personal experience of it in some ways was a surrendering to the truth of my existence and a surrendering, a choosing to surrender to like, wow, this is really true. You know, I am doing these things or I do feel this way or I have been acting in this way. And and I think also an allowing of life, source, God, universe, whatever frame you want to put on it, to have more of an influence in my life. That, you know, like there's just saying, like, life is making me happen. You know, instead of, I'm making my life happen and all the choices are on me, I think that oftentimes trauma, abuse, being lost, those types of things move us into a mistrust of life and into a, I'm going to try and control life. And so I think part of the

place that we reach is I'm going to surrender to life is having an influence on me. And I'm going to surrender to the truth of my existence of how I feel and what's happening. And instead of, instead of staying in the narration and the story of, well, here's what I think about it. And here's how I feel about it. Here's what I should be doing. And I can't do that. And I should do this. And What the fuck's wrong with me for not doing it this way? Instead of just sinking into this is true. This is true. Without story, without judgment, without it's just like this is true.

This is your frame around, no problem. Yeah. Right? And this is your frame around and that's okay. Yeah. Which is fucking beautiful. The same duality that you guys have got in your own practice when I've done stuff with you guys. It's like this.

Yeah. Letting go. And when I hear him say, see what is, accept what is. it's just another way of saying self-awareness to different ways. And it's, and it's very cool to hear, like, how what I just said could be interpreted X amount of ways. But the Venn diagram of what you said and I said reduces that. And then the way he says it reduces. The territory becomes smaller because they're, yeah, iron sharping iron.

Which is really cool. Does anyone want to throw a rock bottom story into the mix and whether anyone's not there? Love Island, bro. Let's go. Or peaking. Was that peaking? No, absolutely not peaking. I can certainly give you the Piedon, I guess, like the Love Island Rock Bottom story, at least that one, which was, it's kind of the Champions League World Cup final, right, of being a professional party boy, especially in the UK, which is very small and the ways that you can extricate yourself from this highly dense, very competitive, very classist system, are limited.

You know, the US is 4% of the world's population, but produces 50% of its millionaires last year. Right. The UK is not even on the league. So I go and do this thing. I have this opportunity to go and like, be the guy, finally. And it was even the way that I got on was done in the way that the rest of my life was constructed, which was, I'd already done one thing previously, made myself very useful to the casting producers that were a part of ITV generally,

the company, Channel 3 in the UK, that was producing the show. And I'd help them. I'd found them new people for other shows that they were going on. I'd advise them all of the different nightclubs to go to. They wanted Jordies. They wanted Newcastle kids because it was a big show,

our equivalent of Jersey Shore, was ripping at that time. So I'm like finding them all, like, cool people because I know everybody that parties around town. So I know the most degenerate or the most outgoing or the cleverest or the whatever. So I've done all of this stuff. And then it's like, hey, we're going to come and screen test for this.

Like, just come and see me. Come and hang out. We haven't talked for ages. Why do you just come and do the thing? And before I knew it, I'm like on a plane on my way to fucking Palmer, Mallorca, with a chaperone, and I do this thing. I have this experience surrounded by people that were the person I thought I was. I thought I was this very extroverted, lad around town, party boy, biggest name on campus, B-knock, biggest name on campus guy. And the thing when you go and do a show like that is because it's filmed 24 hours a day, what is captured up until 2 a.m. gets produced and published and broadcasts at 7 p.m. the next night,

and it's just this permanent treadmill of constant, like, ambient surveillance. But there's no distraction. There's no phone. There's no TV. There's no YouTube. There's no books. There's no friends. There's no nothing. So it is what I later sort of came to reflect on as a fatal dose of contrast. It was me coming up against the projection of me embodied in 11 other people that were living in the house with me. And there's half the number of beds as there are people. So you sleep at the different girl every night or you sleep with the same girl all of the time.

And then I left. And it was a surprise eviction that they were doing to like spice things up or whatever. So you didn't have the time to sort of say your goodbyes that maybe some of the other guys did. So it's kind of a little bit of a chaotic situation.

And I don't know whether you guys know, but the south coast of Miorca, which is where Palmer is, is one of the best night sky viewing spots in the world. one of the clearest skies that you can and we finish up and we get taken off to this couples hotel like a sandals resort type thing which is where they must have just been able to find

some lodging to like ship the people out so you still can't be seen by the press you can't be seen by anyone so you're completely contained in this whole thing and it's been this whirlwind trip and I've like lived it had this media lockdown week for a week before I went in and then I've been on TV and like I read The Alchemist by Paulo so I was in a fucking like psychedelic fugue state for the entirety of the time that was on there

it's a bad idea it would be a piece of advice to anyone going on reality TV. Do not read The Alchemist by Paoloquoela before you go on. I think that's the best advice, most applicable advice than anyone's going to get. Because I'm in fucking, like, south coast of Spain, and I'm thinking to myself, I'm like, like, Santiago. I'm just like, I'm in Spain and I'm taking my shepherd on this trip and I'm seeing the sunrise and so, and I've got no distraction. I'm like just like swimming in the first book I've read fully for something that wasn't university in like a decade. And like that was all of, it was very chaotic. Anyway, So I get shipped away, and taken off more of a chaperone.

We get deposited this couple's hotel, and we're given a, we had a drink limit because they realized that people would get way too Larry and it would be kind of messy and they wanted more of a fluffy family friendly kind of show. So they didn't want people to be pissed and like fighting and stuff like that. And I'm given, we had stubby beers like 330 mil, smaller than a new tonic, three 30 mil beers for the entirety of the time that we were there. And I got out and I was given a 500 mil beer. And like, you spend the whole day in the sun, there is a bit of you that's, especially

if you're around like chicks in bikinis, you're like fucking give me a beer, dude. You know, I don't even smoke, but I was like, I'll rip a sick. Like, it just isn't. I don't know. There's some primal part of you that's like, oh, I was going to do stuff. So I get a tall beer. And finally, for the first time in over a month now, including the media lockdown, I'm on my own. And I have this moment of no surveillance, no microphone around my neck, which you needed to put on, even if you were going to the bathroom in case you said something interesting or whatever, no surveillance and no one with me. And I, like, sort of dumped all my stuff into this room and walked out and looked up at the sky.

And I've never seen it before. And I hope that I get to see it again. The full Milky Way galaxy just stringed. Like someone had taken luminescent glitter and thrown it across the sky from end to fucking end. Because this sort of couples hotel is middle of nowhere with lights all turned off at night and sort of huts. And all that you can hear are crickets, like that classic sort of Spanish sound, very quiet. except for just the chirping of cricket. And I looked up and I saw this thing. And it was almost like the universe was laughing at me. It was almost like after this chaotic thing and reading the book

and I'm Santiago and going through all this stuff and what the fuck? I thought that I was the person that was supposed to be the person that's supposed to be here. Fuck I'm not. All of these people are the person I thought I was and that means who the fuck am I? And like, oh my God, am I having an exist. This is where it happened. This is just classic me. I'm having an existential crisis in the middle of fucking Love Island. Like that is just the most Chris Williamson thing that could ever. And there's the fucking Milky Way. There's the first time I've ever seen it as a person that loves astronomy and, like, is obsessed with the stars.

And fucking interstellar had come out like only a couple of months before. So I was still obsessed with that. And I'm Matthew McConaughey now. Fuck Santiago. And all of this stuff had happened. And that it wasn't a, especially with my health journey, I've become very skeptical of acute solutions to chronic problems. But in retrospect, you look back and you go, oh, there was something about that.

I haven't, what's that line about, life has to be lived forward, but only makes sense in Robos. I am yet to find a clouds parted, and at that moment I knew, it's much closer to the clouds parted, and in retrospect, I knew that at that moment I knew,

something closer to that, if that makes sense. Anyway, I looked up and saw the Milky Way, and it was just, I can still see it now. It was so fucking sick, and it ran completely, sort of, whatever that is,

perpendicular to the way I was looking. So just as if someone had painted it on the fucking ceiling. And it was the sickest thing. And I went home and I was like, okay, between the book and the existential crisis and the Milky Way, it feels like I need to do some more self-investigation. And that was me at 27. 27. And shortly after that, I do six months sober for the first time. Not that I ever had a particularly big problem with alcohol, but I was a party boy.

So I drank every two weeks, but very heavily. and then start meditating and start doing breath work and really take things seriously and it's the same coalescent time that Jordan Peterson and Sam Harris and D'Landibaton from the School of Life are coming online and like I'm listening to more Rogan and I get introduced to Naval Ravakant and like all of this stuff starts happening at the same time that sort of pushes me in this in this direction toward paying more attention to myself and being more self-investigatory. So yeah, is Love Island a strange way to talk about rock bottom? Yeah.

I suppose, but from an existential standpoint, like it really fucking felt like it. It was like, oh, you have constructed your entire identity around being someone that you're not. And this is about as, like, about as magnificent and certainly about as public of a way to experience an existential crisis. So that's my, pull the pin on the grenade and throw that one into the next. Beautiful. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that, man. Yeah. Yeah, thank you. It strikes me the identity being such a critical part. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And the collapse with the projections. And the collapse. Right? Just having the mirror so. Inescapable. Harsely. Literally inescapable.

And with different accents, in different sizes and different shapes, all running up to me and going like, what's going on? Do you know, I mugged that bird off last night? Like, all. Mugged that bird off last night. She's butters. Fucking out, mate. It's good. I mean, Brock Bottoms.

I mean, if I look at my life, there's several places where that happened, like getting kicked out of college. But I think the one that... Nice to me too. Pretty good, brother. The kicked out college is a good story, but I don't think it's the one for this. I think the rock bottom for me was I meet my wife through like a set of unbelievable.

circumstances, like over and over again we're thrown together. It's like so clear that we're supposed to be together. We get engaged really quickly, and then we actually have to learn to live with each other. And there is a moment where I'm like spending a lot of my time meditating in this house on 200 acres outside of Ukiah. And so like basically my pastime is fighting abusively with my wife, meaning like we are being abusive to each other. And there was literally a moment where she's like has a meada and she's like revving her engine threatening to run me over and I'm standing over her front of her thing with a pitchfork. I think that was like the the rock bottom of whoever I think I am like valetorian of the college I didn't get kicked out of

or you know really successful in the stock market at the time or this meditator or guy who's like really understands personal development. And I mean, I'm like 27 or something. I knew nothing. But all those identities like collapsed in that moment. There was just that moment of like,

no, this is what's happening. This is my reality. My reality is that like I have learned how to be with love in this way from my parents. This is all I know and I'm repeating the pattern.

And so whatever it is I think I know, whatever cool I think I am. However like wise or successful I think I am. No, this is actually my reality right here. And it was that moment when, you know, there's that famous thing. If you're pointing somebody, three fingers are pointing back at you. There was like, oh, I'm not focused on what she's doing anymore. I'm only focused on myself. Like whatever that allowed this to occur, I'm solely focused there. That wasn't always perfect, obviously. But, it was absolutely changed that position. And then the other thing that occurred was there's no amount of meditating that's going to solve this. This is not a, this doesn't get solved

through meditation. This gets solved some other way. And so I'm going to find that other way. And so that started the like the deep investigation of things like Hoffman process and trauma work and somatic work. And so how old were you? 26, 27 years old. Yeah. And so, and this was a succession of fights, but it was that moment that was like so fucking clear, like this is what my life. Weielding a pitch for.

Yeah. And again, threatened to be run over. You know, like it was. Don't bring a pitchfork to a car fight. She had the better weapon. I really, if you met Tara, she would use it. Oh, yeah, of course. I really just am picturing you in like gene overalls with no shirt on.

And that fucking Mazden, the yada about to hit you, and you've got your pitchboard. I'm like, there's a painting in your future, Joe, that I'm going to send you. Absolutely. That's funny. It was brutal. I was picturing you in monks robes. Meditating your way out of life. And then like one of these like warrior monks from like some Chinese monastery who's like master of the pitch floor.

Yeah, I think that was like the lowest point was just that that that recognition. of like whatever I think I am, I am surely fucking not. And whatever ideas that I have that I've read from these books are done from meditation retreats, that's also not. Like, I have to, I have to like go down to the base and find out what's actually true. In other news, have you ever noticed how some websites make it ridiculously easy to buy while some feel infinitely harder? Back in my day, I had to walk 10 miles to the local store.

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Yeah, so I have some thoughts and some questions. Do we vote at the end to figure out who hit the world? And then someone gets ejected from the island. It'll be a poll on the YouTube video. So the one thing that I'm kind of noticing is like this tension between there is a methodology. Right. So like you did a lot of work and there are things, right? And there is a way.

Like clearly there's a way that can be taught, can be learned, can be practiced, can be improved. Yeah. And there is this element of like you can do all of it and it's never enough. So I'm really curious about how we. We, like, so what, you know, and I have my own thoughts about this. Like, the weird thing is, like, I feel like we all know the answer, but I think it's hard to understand. Well, it's hard to explain. Just to interject, I did an episode that I never released with a guy called Kapil Gupta a while ago.

And he knows that I didn't release it. He's one of Naval's coaches. Like, this guy's very, very well esteemed. And this is like episode 40 or something. And I got stuck on his, there is no. prescription instruction. And maybe I wasn't then and maybe still I'm not now sufficiently aware to sort of work that out. But there is this temptation sometimes to continue to circle the drain of like, well, you know, like a lot of it comes down to the self and the awareness and when

the moment arrives you will know and so on and so forth. And you're like, okay, does this grow any fucking corn? Like show me this meeting with reality because this is where the esoteric can kind become a little, it doesn't feel instructive. It doesn't feel like advisory. And to a degree, perhaps that's the takeaway. It's like, guess what? There is no prescription. Like, that is it.

But it felt that, that bit to me felt that. And it seems like at least part of some of what we're talking about here is like, there is. And also there is this other thing. There is this other part. And trying to describe the other part. Because everyone is coming to you for the thing. Right.

Right. And if they come to you for the thing and you say, well, actually, there is no fucking prescription, you go, ah, damn it. Well, I think the best mental model that I know to like point to that is here's a button. And if you press the button, you get 100% peace for the rest of your life. You jump in at the button. Are you hesitant about the button? Are you like, yeah, no, I'm not going to push that button? Most humans aren't going to be like, yeah, boom. Most people are like, so you can circle the drain for a long time because most people aren't going to be like, yeah.

Because the whole identity evaporates when you go, yeah. So. My turn? Yeah. Or not. Sure. I felt like you got interrupted there. I mean, I can.

Yeah. So I think we should. So just to put a pin in a couple things, I think I'm trying to think about people who are watching this and what would be. helpful to them in telling them, hey, ultimately there's nothing you can do. Good luck. I think we do have to be prescriptive at some point. Yeah.

And I think we should do that. Absolutely. So I just kind of want. Hold on. Hold on. They won't continue to equivocate for the rest of the three hours. Wait to the end of the episode. Yeah, exactly.

Mr. Beast, I tried a million meditation techniques. Guess which one works? Yeah. So I think I could make that video. So, and so I do. want to get to, I just want to acknowledge that I think there is some methodology, right? Like, so you have groundbreakers because we all figure out ways to consistently intervene with people

and whether that's ego dissolution, which I think is a huge part of it or, you know, whatever the techniques, like realizing truth, like becoming self-aware. Like, whetherhood initiation. Yeah, Dikshah initiation is a huge part. I think there's a lot that has been lost in our society, which once we start reintroducing is incredibly powerful. So initiation is for me at the top of the for those kinds of things. But let's start with the story, I guess. You sure you don't want to go? No, please.

So, you know, like Joe, and I'm sure like you guys, you know, I had a series of rock bottoms. And then there's like the classic rock bottom that I, that I sort of share with people, which is a rock bottom that looks like a rock bottom. So, you know, I'm failing out of college, you know, spending every day playing 16 to 20. hours of video games a day. And I remember like waking up one morning and sleeping through my Spanish final or not sleeping. I wake up with my alarm and like my Spanish finalist today. And I just like decided in that moment like I'm not going to go. And it's not even that like I'd even like studied frantically for about six hours the night before. And I slept for like two hours. And then I was like, I'm just not going to go. And so I kind of failed out of college and then

went to India after a couple of years. And then I really interested. So I was 21 at the time, spent 90 days in an ashram. And at the end of it, I went to one of my, what I truly believed to be one of my gurus. He was actually another student at the ashram. So I thought he was spiritually way more developed than like the teachers or leaders of the ashram who were surprisingly narcissistic in many ways. There's a study that shows this, by the way. Yeah, I'm sure there is. Because I mean, it's, it's so bad. And so I go to my teacher and I say, hey, this is what I want to do for the rest of my life. You know, like, so I want to take son yes. I want to become a monk. And he's like, no. He says, you can come back if you want to when you're 30. You can take your vows when you're 30, but you need to go back and you need to finish your education. And he also says, unless you can become exceptional in the material world, you're just going to fail. Like the path, what you're what the path that you're, what the path that you're, you're, what the path that you you want to walk is so much harder than becoming, getting to the top of your field, like, materially. So I kind of took that to heart. It was kind of confusing and destabilizing and stuff

like that. But I was like, okay, fine. So I'm going to become a monk. And then I go back and, like, within weeks of returning and making my decision to become a monk and, like, going to be celibate. No, fap. So then I meet my wife. But I'm just saying this is quite a sign for celibacy. It is. As an Indian man as well. So then I go back and within one week of returning to the U.S., I meet my wife. I mean, she's not my wife at the time, but I meet this girl.

And I had had just a string of terrible, I can't even call them relationships. I would say like attempted relationships, if you guys know what I mean. You guys were ever there. And so I was like in a fraternity and partying a lot and stuff like that. and just like nothing had ever worked out. I meet this girl and she's a freshman and I'm, I mean, it's my third year in college, but I'm a sophomore. And so we start date, like, I didn't realize we were dating, but we start dating.

And then, you know, I tell her like a couple months in, I was like, I'm sorry, I have to become monk. And she's like 18. You know, she's a freshman. And so I'm like, you know, like, I'm going to, like, she deserves to be with someone who's better and I'm going to become monk. And she's like, yeah, whatever. And so that. goes on for a while. And then finally I decide like, oh, I'm actually like I realize, I'm sure what you guys realize at some point that, oh, like being a monk is like what's on the outside.

And the real work is like on the inside. And I don't need to become a monk to do the work. And in fact, people who sometimes dedicate themselves to doing the work in a very visible outer way or like spiritually deraft and empty on the inside. And then the part of the story that I think is like rock bottom is the peak that I don't know if I've publicly shared before. So I graduated with a 2.4 GPA. And so I wanted to go to medical school. And the reason I wanted to go to, so I wanted to go to medical school at the beginning because I was the child of doctors. And being Indian, like being a doctor was like is as high as you can go. Right. So people will think I'm a badass. And not only did I want to go to medical school, can any y'all guess which medical school I'd

set my sights on? Any, any takers? Any guesses? Harvard. Yeah, absolutely, right? So I was going to be the best, like, let alone a normal doctor. The best Indian. The best, right? I'm number to one Indian. Number one.

So then I graduated with a whopping 2.4 GPA after five and a half years. And I'm like, okay, so now I want to marry this girl. And she wants to marry a doctor because she's Indian too. And the one thing I swore is I'll never end up with an Indian girl. and the one thing she swore is that she'd never end up with an Indian guy. And so we really bonded over that. We were like, man, fuck Indian people, dude. Indian guys, mama's boys, so high maintenance, Indian girls, like so materialistic.

Like, nah, man. So, so I, and then, and then I, so I really struggle and I apply to medical school and stuff like that. And I get one interview. In the interview, I have a friend who's interviewing on the same day. So like, we're going to drive there together. And I go to the interview and, and then I come back and I'm like, I, like, I want this more than anything else. And I remember, like, I was like, I want this so much.

So I was like meditating and I had been doing that for a few years now. And so like, it was one of the few times that I prayed. And so I was like meditating at the end of the meditation. I was just so fucking desperate. I was like, please. Like, I've worked really hard. I've done like, you know, I kind of like put my life together. Like, it's hard to get rid of like a 0.9 GPA.

So like I had done pretty well. And my last semester in college, I took 24 credits, which is like twice a regular class load. And I studied for the MCAT and all this stuff. And I was like, I did everything right. Like, please God, like, let me have medical school. Like, can I do this? I've met this girl and I want to marry her and like all this kind of stuff. And then like something inside me said, no.

Like it's not going to happen. And it wasn't even like doubt. It was like surety. And it was like, this is not going to happen. And I broke down crying. and I felt like really bad, but it was also like something really soothing. And that very few times

stuff like that happened to me in meditation. Like there's stuff that happens consistently, but not like this. And so it also told me that it's going to take you like two years. Like you have to do this carmically for like two years. And it's hard to describe because it wasn't like a voice. I use the word knowing because there is not a good like English word for it. It was like I knew in that moment that this was,

I was supposed to like do this work futilely for some amount of time, which is another one of these things I'd love to get your thoughts on. Like, I think we grossly underestimate the value of futile work. And, and, and, and so I know it's weird, but such an oxymor. I know, but I think there's something weird about karma and like, you have to work, you know, there's a saying that the best way to learn go is to lose your first hundred games. And we are so focused. on winning, winning, winning, winning, winning, I think we have lost sight of the value of losing. And sometimes when I work with my patience, there's this weird, carmic angle that I don't have full insight into, but like the process of getting to the top, you have to get through the falls. And there's this weird spiritual principle.

I know I'm getting a bit off track from the story, but there's this weird spiritual principle that when I work with people who are more spiritually developed, they'll kind of say that there's an acceleration of, karma when you start doing spiritual practice. Can you define what you mean by karma for the people who maybe don't understand it fully? Is that a big question? Yes.

Yeah. Oh, okay. I thought you were just going to give me a single sentence. I was thinking about whether I want to give you a single sentence, but I don't. Cool. So, y'all watching. I'm going to crack a pipe. Yeah.

So, so, and so that was like, it was kind of rock bottom for me. But what I also felt was like so calm. Like I knew that there was an immense amount of hurt like coming down the pipeline. That car is coming. Like she's not stopping. And the other thing that I felt that was really interesting is like that's okay. So I felt immense relief even though something really bitter is like coming down the pipeline. And so that's my rock bottom story.

It's interesting. I think one of the pieces that you're talking about like filling your way towards success. is so vital. Yeah. And sometimes that is in the mundane things. I found that in my life, like whenever people ask, how have you gotten here? It's like, I don't know, a decade and a half of failing my way to where I am. And a decade before that of being absolutely fucking frustrated and rageful that I was failing

and hating that I was failing and rejecting the failing and beating the shit out of myself for failing. And so there is a kind of reconciliation with, I think, one's relationship to failure that's necessary for the shift that I think we're really talking about. Yeah. And there's like the most futile things like would be like depression. And there's a huge amount of research that shows that people who go through a risk of depression and find themselves on the other end are far more resilient than people who've never gone through the depression before. Totally. And so absolutely that futility is, like it creates a resilience. And whether it's take your first million words and throw them out and then you're an author

or lose your first hundred games of go or be depressed. I think it's a tremendous amount. And that relationship, if you want to be futile effectively, if you want to be effectively futile, enjoy it, don't beat yourself up over it. Yeah. As you were talking about, we have massively undervalued the value of futile work. I had this line in my mind that Sisyphus is still racking up experience points. Yeah.

Dude, he's grinding. You want to look like him? Do the Sisyphus workout. Just up the hill. He's next to the spawn point for the boulder all the time. Yeah. He's just camped out next to the boulder, pushes up the hill. He's just camping.

Farming that boulder, man. He is probably the boulder. All right, come on, grand finale. The supplement industry is full of products making claims that they can't back, which is why I'm such a massive fan of Momentus. Their co-founder, Jeff Byers, played in the NFL and saw firsthand just how wildly the quality of supplements can vary. So he built Momentus around a higher standard.

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by going to the link in the description below. We're heading to livemomenus.com slash modern wisdom and using the code modern wisdom at checkout. That's L-I-V-E-M-O-M-T-O-U-S.com slash modern wisdom and modern wisdom at checkout. I mean, I feel like I was way more of a shit show than you guys. Amen to that. If you're going to win, don't brag about it. No, I got to brag a little bit. No, I mean, like, I really genuinely hated myself.

I really genuinely hated, like, you make me emotional still today. You know, like, I hated myself. and I was really lost. Like I didn't really, I didn't know who I was. I was a walking contradiction. Like if you had met me at 22, I was riding a motorcycle, riding a bright yellow crotch rocket with a helmet that had two inch metal spikes super glued onto it, going to yoga classes, binge drinking it,

and I smoking cigarettes and going to opera rehearsal because I was singing classical music. Like I did not know who the hell I was at all. And I was trying to grasp onto who could I possibly become in this world of possibilities. And I just had so much pain and suffering inside of me. And anyway, the rock bottom moment for me, I completed my degree in music, in opera performance as a classical singer. Where are you living at this point? I was in Vancouver. I was in, at this point, the rock bottom point, I was in Victoria.

Okay. And it's a good place for Rockbottom. It's a great place for Rockbuck. I was just thinking, I mean, you said you were at your low point, but you sound like a blast to hang out. Opera singer, right? Yeah. The cycle of rican sync. Yeah.

And, you know, it was I, it was always a contradiction because I didn't like who I was, but I was charismatic and I was able to attract women, but then I didn't feel good enough. And so I'd sabotage their relationships. And so anyway, I was. I had just finished my degree. I was living in Victoria, and I had been, I'd moved there to work with a mentor, and he was somebody that was in his 70s,

who was French-Canadian. And the background is that for the previous, like, two or three years, I was in a relationship for a number of years, but for the previous two or three years, I'd been having a number of affairs. I was just, like, sleeping around nonstop. When I travel,

you literally tell me, Huge parts of my 22-year-old experience. Smoking cigarettes, sleeping around. Dude, I was just watching from the dorms playing video games. You were in the tuck chat playing Roomscape. Yeah, I wanted to be that. Literally, I was playing music, different kind of music, smoking cigarettes, sleeping around. There you go.

There you go. Not a motorcycle because I knew I was. Just needed to give you a motorcycle and you could have been. I had a van because I had a musical equipment to put in. But yeah, everything else is the same. Yeah. I had B.O. It's the most Indian thing you could have come up with.

Oh, my God. I had a Honda VTR 1000 and B.O and you had BEO. But yeah, behind the scenes, cheating, lying, weed, booze, massive porn addiction that I couldn't stop and just tons of cheating. And it was, and it sort of came to this moment where in this, I won't tell the story, but in this, like, very. like cinematic way she found out that I, like, I was, I couldn't deny it anymore. I couldn't lie anymore. She had caught me before. I had lied. She had, you know, cut me again. I had lied. And then in this moment, it was just like, you know, I couldn't escape the damage that I had cost her. And it broke me. It like really just broke me. And, but I had so much shame. I didn't want

anybody to know what I had done. So she moved out of our apart. I moved all of my shit into storage. And at that time, I had a, I'd gotten rid of my motorcycle and I had a 2007 Pontiac G5, which is a two-door coupe piece of shit. But it was black with white racing stripes across the top and a big fin and chrome rims on the side. It was really bad. That's the low point.

That's the end of the story. The low point is I moved all my shit in the storage and lived. in the car in a Walmart parking lot for a few weeks. And I didn't, because I didn't want people to know who I had become. Like I couldn't hold the veil anymore. I couldn't hold the illusion of, no, I'm this good guy. I'm this nice guy. You know, I'm happy.

I'm good. I like myself. I couldn't hold that. Like, the veil was broken. It was done. It was dead. And I was just trying to hedge. And one night under the stars in the backseat of my car looking out, I had contemplating

taking my life. And it was in that moment where I was like, I don't want to die. Like, this is, you know, this is insane. And so a couple of days after living in the Walmart parking lot, I had a conversation with my then singing mentor. His name was Bernard. And he was very well versed and trained in young young in psychology, and he just started to help me.

And it became an apprenticeship. And like I, you know, he was 74. I chopped wood, I carried water. I helped with his Dobermans. He raised Dobermans. And he taught me Jungian psychology. He taught me about the shadow. He helped me heal.

He really saved my life. He really, he just saved my life. And then, you know, I, years later turned it into something. But that was sort of the inflection point where who I was and who I thought I could be just couldn't exist any longer, you know? And, yeah. And Victoria is a good place at rock bottom.

And Victoria, yeah. There's Bernard's there. There's lots of Bernard's there. Yeah. Can I make a Directors Cut DVD, like, request? Can you just add on to the end the story that you once told me about what it felt like when you'd finally made it from the family perspective and you looked back on that version of you and you had to say goodbye, you had to kind of bury that version of you? I just think that's like a really lovely, like, additional story.

Yeah, like when I found my son was pregnant or my wife was pregnant, with my son. Yes, yes. Yeah, so I had this moment five years ago when my son was born. And when he was, I found out my wife was pregnant with him. When we were in Vancouver and we were staying at a friend's apartment and my wife was like, I think I'm pregnant and I was like, okay. And then we found out and I was having a session with a man that I was working with and we were chatting and I was like, I can't, it's hard for me to hold the life that I,

have now because it's so vastly different, not just externally, but actually how I feel inside. Like how I feel about myself and my life and the existence that I've created is just, it was so jarring in it. I was just completely broke down and I was sobbing from a place of joy that, you know, almost like I had made it, like I had made it out, you know, like I had made it beyond. And maybe there'll be another period of my life where I, you know, get dragged back into, the depths of the Negredo, but, you know, it really was this sort of full circle moment where, you know, 10 years later, I was like, holy shit, like, I've made it through this, but it took a long time, you know, it took a long, long time. So, I described that moment as realizing that my life

was a dream that I never thought possible coming true. Totally. Like just no conception whatsoever that life could be this good. It really, I think it really brought a kind of presence to beauty. in my life that I didn't like I never was I knew beauty I sang I performed I understood that beauty was a very important part of existence but I didn't really have a direct experience of like oh this is the potency of beauty you know that it really can bring you to this place of awe you know and wonder um yeah that's beautiful that's so interesting because this is the experience that I don't share with y'all. So my internal experience of making it is like absurdist and memeish.

Like it's not negative, but like, you know, when you guys talk about this deep beauty, I don't think. So I feel like not to make too many comparisons, but I think I'm luckier, actually, you know, and I think you win, by the way. I don't know, the pitchforks. The pitchforks. A Love Island is hard to talk. The painting is going to be good. But yeah, you know, so I felt, I think, the depth of what you guys are talking about, but it has a different color. Like, I actually just recently had a conversation with my wife about, and I've gone through some stuff recently, which maybe we'll get to, but just like, we're really lucky.

We're like so incredibly lucky. and also like when I look at my life, I feel a sense of disbelief and humor. Totally. So one time my wife got an email from a Nigerian prince. And we're like, this is a scam. Oh, sorry, not a Nigerian print. Somewhere from the UAE.

This is a scam, right? Except it wasn't. It was like someone from a royal family of a country in the UAE in the MENA region was reaching out and wanted to invest in healthy gamer. And so like we looked at like so clearly like you get some like, hi, my name is whatever. I'm like royalty and I want to give you all this pile of money. Sure you are. Do you guys have time to talk? The real philanthropic like Garnayan and UAE community has been diddled by all

the scans. Like if I'm trying to give my money ways a Nigerian prince, it actually becomes quite hard now. Yeah. So we were, and then like, we have this moment, right? And then I look at this and I'm like, what? Like, this is where I, like, what is this? And that's the strangest, I mean, that's the when I feel the depth of, you guys are talking about the shattering of the veil, which I think is a great thing to explore methodologically, right? Like, how do you get there? But when I see through the veil, Like what I see is something that is just weirdly like absurd and like funny. And I feel an immense amount of joy with it. So I think there's a positive valence, but it's not like grand and awe-inspiring.

And not to say that, you know, one is better than the other. But if there are people out there who feel that, feel the absurdism of life. You're like marveling at the cathedral and you're giggling at it. Yeah. And I am sure he's giggling at it too. I'm definitely good. Yeah. You just spend more time with Hahn than me.

Maybe. And I mean, I experience awe too. Like I'm, you know, I can get there. But it's just so interesting to hear. I have a hard time with it sometimes. I have a hard time with it. With what's it? Uh, I think, I think, and I've found a lot of people have this experience,

but I think I find sometimes that there's always like this little still background voice of like, when's the shoe going to drop? Like, when's the thing going to happen that's going to take me back to that. place of hell that I was in before. And wouldn't you be lucky for that, though? And look what it got you. Yeah, maybe, yeah. Yeah. I mean, if you could double what you got, would you do it?

Enjoy and in love. I mean, yeah. Yeah. I think it's, again, I think we're like circling the incomprehensible nature of some of this work, like the unexpressible experience of it. I think from like a more calculable place, there was a couple of things that I had to learn. One of them was I had to learn how to develop some competency in things that helped me to bolster a sense of self-esteem. You know, like I didn't, I wasn't good academically.

I wasn't good in sports. I was mediocre in most things. And so, you know, I think that there were some things that I really had to build out. But yeah, maybe at some point, like maybe, you know, if it all went to hell in a handbasket again, that they're just, you know, it's just like that's the carmic cycle, right? I'm excited because for the first time in my life, I disagree with you. Okay, cool. And I'm sure that we don't actually disagree.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I know. But so, you know, you asked like, look at where it got you. And my reaction was, no, I wouldn't be grateful for that. Yeah. And I'm pretty sure we're going to end up to the same place. But like, I think the amount of suffering that I had, like, I'm good. Yeah.

I'm good now. I'm fully sufficient. I don't need. I don't need more. Yeah. And I also don't need twice as much love. Yeah. You know?

I'm actually okay. And I think that's part of this, this comic thing, which I, we'll define at some point, where, like, I get the sense that. And I'm, I'm sure that we don't actually disagree. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I love, I think you're, you're, you're, A question speaks to me of the methodology of the reframe, right? Change our relationship, which I think is another big point. It is not the avoidance of the thing or getting the thing.

It is changing your relationship to the thing itself. If the frame is you have a fear that falling back would be a bad thing, but the realistic outcome of the last time that you fell back was everything that you wanted, the fear of falling back dissolves because you realize that if it was to happen, not do you want it to happen, if it was to happen, you would at some point in future end up with more of what you'd got,

therefore the voice that whispers, what happens if the shoe drops, can fuck off because regardless of whether you need it or want it more, the fear is kind of pointless. So the frame of there is nothing to fear from that, Yeah, I'll add one other part to the reframing. The other reframing is that it's like when you start to see it out of the corner of your eye, you're like, oh, cool, let's go. Instead of, okay, what the fuck. Like when you feel that intensity and that embrace, it's like, oh, I'm turning right towards it. And when you do that, it's less likely to build into like the shit show that we experience as younger is because you lean in immediately. So you don't wait into your whole identity has to collapse. You're like, oh, that little piece of my identity isn't working. Well, I remember coming out of groundbreakers,

I told you about this experience. I don't know if I've talked about this before, but after seven days of 12 hours a day on a fucking flower farm in Northern California, being- You're making it sound very hippy. Being scrutinized by you, heavily scrutinized by Joe and his team of wonderful facilitators.

When I came back into the real world, one of the first things that I texted you about was every time that I'd say, tell a line, no matter how small it feels like nails on a chalkboard, there was this, like, unbelievable attunement to incongruence. And that I've noticed, I had David Dader on the show a little while ago, way the superior man guy. And if you actually look at David's CV, he started off in computer science doing AI in the 80s, then became an expert in math stuff, then went and did like tantric sex work for like a decade, then came out and did the masculinity stuff, then went back into

computer science, then came out and did some more stuff. Now he lives in the woods in Florida doing whatever the fuck. And I asked him this question. And I was like, how, draw the thread together for me across the journey of your life, this arc. It doesn't seem like an arc. It looks like a spider with a pen attached to it that's being given too much cocaine and it's like run around this piece of paper. And he said, the pain of being out of alignment with myself is so great that I can't bear it. And that was the same thing. Like the pain of being out of alignment with what is true for me, with what I want to do, with what I know. And it's not just what you want, but his level of knowing, because just following what you want

without a good level of self-awareness actually can result in you being in fucking rock bottom living in your car, right? Like, I want to fuck that girl. I want to drive that motorcycle. Or I want to, you know, have a car with the crazy racing stripes on it. But yeah, and that feels like resonant to me that nails on a chalkboard that at some point you just get, you kind of fall into alignment and you become increasingly more attuned and attenuated to the times when you're not. That seems like kind of important. I think that one of the big questions that people have to like kind of drawing things back

to the initial image that we were looking at of like, you know, is it fuck the game? is it win the game, whatever it is. I think one of the questions that people, what we're really talking about, if we can summarize it, the question that people need to ask himself is, what am I going to do with the pain that exists inside of me?

What am I going to do with that? And I think that for men, like one of the things that I've seen time and time again is that oftentimes men are taught that strength equals suppression, that suppression equals strength, that the more I suppress, whatever it is that I'm feeling,

whatever that makes me be perceived as weak, that that is going to make me be perceived as stronger and that is a recipe for there's a whole bunch of shit that's inside of me that I don't know how to deal with that I don't feel capable or competent of dealing with that I don't want other people to see and that becomes this sort of chaos inside of them that they don't know how to reconcile with and so I do think that regardless of whether you're trying to win the game or fuck the game or whatever it is at some point there is a reckoning with the negative self perception, the negative self-treatment, the pain, the suffering that exists inside of you.

And I think that in some ways, we all have different tax, although it seemed to be very similar, on how to go about doing that. But I think that in part is the starting point. It's like needing to get to that place of saying, okay, what am I going to do with this? Do you agree? Yeah, I was thinking that I can answer your question of what karma is now that he's teed it up. Cool. So, I completely agree. It's great. We have been edging us for the last 20 minutes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Edge. Edge all the way to the edge. Edge is where we'll continue to exist. Been perjured for so long now. Yeah. So. This episode is brought you by Whoop. Most people treat recovery like it's optional, but unlike politicians,

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the cycle or pregnancy or men hiding from it. Once you see the patterns, you start making better decisions. It's that simple. Best of all, you can join for free, pay nothing for your Woop 5.0 strap plus you get your first month for free and there's a 30 day money back guarantee so you can buy it for free try it for free if you don't like it after 29 days they just give you your money back right now you can get the brand view whoop 5.0 and that 30 day free trial by going to the link in the description below or heading to join dot whoop.com slash modern wisdom that's join dot whoopop dot com slash modern wisdom. So I love this, I love your framing, Connor, because it's like, what are you going to do

with the pain inside you? Like, it's there. It ain't going anywhere. You can't get rid of it. And so you said, there's a reckoning. And I think that's what karma is. Karma is the reckoning. So karma is nothing more than the principle of cause and effect, right?

So I think Newton's third law, every action has an equal and opposite reaction. This is a principle of physics. It's like cause and effect is part of the fabric of the universe. And what gets confusing about karma is that it like, I think people are very imprecise with their understanding of it. They think it means like justice, but karma's not human. It's not morality. It's not justice. It's just cause and effect. If a ball goes up in the air, a ball comes back down. So when I was in maybe my third year of wannabe monk training, I met someone and who is pretty spiritually developed and I was like, well, what do you think about like karma? And he said, well, I can't, I can't stand behind any philosophy that says if a woman is, it's her fault. And so I think this speaks to the ignorance around karma that like it's like that karma is going to get your, like if you, if I steal from you like something bad is going to happen to me. I think we live in a world where the karma of stealing from people is to become a big. billionaire. Like, that's the carmic price that you pay when you embezzle a country's funds, let's say, right? And so karma is nothing more than cause and effect. And my exploration of

karma tried to, I tried to ask myself one question if you want to understand. I mean, I don't know if this will help you understand karma. It's how I understand it. When does cause and effect end? So if I have a patient who, you know, has a depression, let's say. So we know that there's like genetics that causes a predileate, changes their serotonin transporter structure in some way that predisposes them something. So that's like a cause. Like this is a cause that predisposes them to depression. We also know that there are environmental factors like experiences like trauma or adverse childhood experiences. Those are also causes that have effects. And the really interesting thing is the further back you go, I wasn't able to find a convincing way.

I don't know, I'm going to struggle to put this. So there are all the effects that you have in your current life that were pretty measurable. But what about all the things about your life that are random? The time that this consciousness embodied this set of neurons, who your parents are. Because does that suddenly become random at some point? And that doesn't make any sense to me. Like, I think it's just, it's cause and effect all the way back. And we sort of know this, and this is why it gets kind of confusing.

like, duh, like, you're your kid because you had your parents. Well, that's a cause. And then that has a cause and that has a cause. And if you sort of think about it, the closer I got to the border of what is random, I couldn't find any answer that like nothing is random. You can make an argument that things like Brownian Motion are random or like quarks are random or whatever. There seems to be some randomness in the universe. But it also seems like despite really subatomic levels, there's randomness. But somehow order emerges. right, so we don't know exactly what's going on there. And so the way that I think about karma, because then people also get into questions of destiny and free will and stuff like that, the way that I really simply understand it is it's your choice whether you jump off the cliff. But it's destiny, whether you fall after you make your decision. Right. So like, and this is where I think what a lot of people don't realize and what I loved about your answer, Connor, is like, you have a lot of pain inside you. how are you going to deal with that? That is your karma. All of us made choices, right? And this is where maybe we're getting to agency. Like, we made choices. You decided to glue spikes onto your helmet. I, the alarm at 7 a.m. I did the stupid thing where I was like, if I have an 8 a.m. class, I'll wake up, right? I thought I could force myself. But I had the 7.8 a.m. alarm, the beginning of my Spanish final. And I was like, okay, I got to go get. And I chose to talk. And I chose to talk. And I was. I chose to talk. turn it off and go back to sleep. We make choices and we have to live with the consequences of

our choices. And I think the biggest mistake that I see so many men make is that they try to get away from the choices that they make. They lean away from the, you see it in the corner of your eye, you turn away from it. And Joe will tell you, I'm sure he can tell you a thousand stories of how that's just going to make things worse. You have. You have. You have. You have pain inside you, you're trying to run away from it, ain't going to work. There is a reckoning. And when I've learned this in my life, and this has been like brutal, like we talk about rock bottom, I feel like I'm still at rock bottom in many ways. And that's why when you're like, would you want it again? I'm like, no, can I finally, finally can I get rid of it? Can I be done? Can I rest?

And the answer is like, no, not yet. And so karma is like, you can't run away. from the things that you do. And even running away, people think that, okay, I can deal with it tomorrow. No, you can't. What people don't understand is your brain is plastic

24 hours a day, seven days a week, which means it is constantly wiring. If you do not do that task today, you will train yourself to not do tasks. There is no such thing as waiting until tomorrow.

We assume that the order organism that we are, that you will be the same fundamental organism, just better rested, right? Slightly more motivated. I've listened to modern wisdom. And so tomorrow it'll do the work for me, which is the other thing that I think we're all getting to. Nothing. No amount of meditation, no amount of spending time in the Himalayas, no amount of whatever the fuck you were doing.

Right? Chopping wood, shadow work. Yeah, Bernard. Bernard. Bernard can get you halfway there, right? All this stuff can get you halfway there. but nothing is a substitute for that karmic reckoning. In that moment of like you have to take control at some point.

Can we get somewhat methodological? Yeah, I think there's one thing I want to touch on before we do that, but I think it'll be part of it. If we go back to that mountain thing, I think there's also a developmental issue in the mountain. When you're going up the mountain, you're learning agency. I think that's a really important thing to learn. Yes.

before you get to surrender. I sent you Charlie Hoopert's conception of this that he gave me and it fucking broke me in half. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So you go from victim to actor. Right. And then he goes from actor to emotion and then from emotion to spirit. That's his.

And he talked about it going down. But yes. I just think that there are like there's natural things that we need to learn. Like when I'm hearing you talk about like, we've made choices and this is the thing. And you have to take responsibility for yourself. That's like, that is. You said two things. You said that and you also said something about like you're constantly having to let go of things that you've learned as growth.

My words for that is every epiphany is a rut waiting to happen. And it's like the epiphany of I have agency, this is my responsibility. It's on me is an incredibly important epiphany. But it can become a rut if it doesn't turn into eventually it's all grace. It's all surrender. it's all like all of this is blessing. I had no idea. I chose none of it.

And so it's an interesting thing. It's that the thought processes that we have, it's not a question if they right or wrong, because you asked me, you're like, did you agree with that? And my brain doesn't even work like that. I'm like, what is it that? How is that what he's saying truthful is how I think about it?

Like, oh, let me understand the truth of that. Because there is no right. idea or wrong idea, there is just, is this idea helpful, does it create freedom for me today? Because it might be enslavement tomorrow. And so I'm constantly seeing the world that way. And I think that that mountain is the same thing, that there's certain things when you're climbing up the mountain that give you freedom. Yeah, doing the thing. And then letting go of the thing on the other side. This is something that I've found incredibly difficult and painful and is one of the reasons I like to talk about the lonely chapter.

that if and arriving is kind of part of this too, realizing that the tools that you relied on that pulled you out of the last quagmire and now the things that you have to pull yourself out of again, hang on, you're telling me this thing and there's a lot of value that's wrapped up and almost like a morality of this thing, this thing is good, was good to me.

Yeah. And now you're telling me that my, uh, my fellow escapee has become my captor. fuck yeah yeah precisely actually i think it's more precise is and now that is only a tool that's good about five percent of the time yeah so i can't let go of it all the way either yes i can't let go it all the way either yes i've got to feather the throttle but now i need to grow a third leg yeah and actually be able to put another throttle on at the same time yeah so i i think there's

an attitude here that speaking of methodology which i think we should pivot to people have this idea of wanting to be done. And I hate that we live in a society that like propagates this idea, like passive income, retirement. Right. People will sometimes ask me, because we talk about Rockbottom and they're like, I remember I felt very envious and intimidated and ashamed because someone that I went to high school with became a doctor while I was finished medical school while I was still applying. So I started med school at 28. And so they were. done by then. And so we met for Christmas, like, I hadn't seen her in 10 years. And I was like, oh, what are you up to? She's like, yeah, I'm finishing. I'm done with medical school.

You know, I'm moving on to residence. So what are you up to? And I was like, I'm applying. And so, you know, I think people feel exhausted. And so they hope for this day when the work is done. Dirty fuel. Dirty fuel. And so there's a start of like, okay, when can I be done? What do I need to do. Like, what amount of passive income? What amount of this? Like, when can I, when can I? Meditation? What amount of self? Yeah. So, so how do I, how do I do I do all the right things so that I can be at peace forever? And then I have to stop working to be at peace, right? How do I attain enlightenment, which is, I love Joe's quote, porn for perfectionists. Also, a thing that I, on the surface, disagree with, but I'm sure we don't. But so, and so I, and so I think part of this.

idea of it becomes part of your tool belt is like the work and this sounds so exhausting but it's only the work is never done that's what i that's why also i'm kind of like yeah i'm actually okay with not having more fear or whatever because like to me it really feels and this was this is a been a brutal realization for for me and my wife which we're actually like okay with it was like so many people in my family so you know if you're a doctor like people call you right and so we're just we're just always putting out fires hello son i have earache Yeah, right? And so, it act out of dysfunction, what do I do?

Or sometimes I get calls, right? Because I have to podcast like yours, and then people will ask me the only way I can achieve a climax is through anal sex. What do I do? Right? So, and getting that call from a 65-year-old person in your family is really weird. Have anal sex? Isn't that an easy solution? Well, it seems like a simple son to square.

I'm confused. So here's, this is not going to be what people expected at all. Here's the challenge. So, so I understand. My logical Brian kicked in. I apologize. No, I mean, I understand why it's confusing for you, Joe, because I'm sure that that's something that's available to you at all times with, given how manly and charming you are. But for some of us fuckers who weren't singers in riding motorcycles, that's just not an option all the time.

I was assuming it was your aunt. not your uncle oh sorry we're good so yeah we can I mean

I think we should do round two where we don't have to stay on track like what what one is that you can just keep going so

I do think it would be interesting for us to talk about sex like in a not now but like later yeah you know be fun so

so I don't even what was I talking about uh when you're a doctor, people call up. Yeah. So I think this idea of the work being done. Yeah. And I think changing your relationship to that, right?

Changing your relationship to, and this is why like life has smacked me in the face, like over and over and over again. I've tried to be done. I've tried to be done. And like I'm just not, I'm not done. It's like life is not going to let me be done. Like, no. I said to a client last week, like, who told you that you get to be done learning how to be a human?

Yeah. Like, where is that? Like, in the manuals, like, did you get a manual that said that? Because I think, like, we just, we continue to go through these different stages. And I do think that it's the trick of the ego or the personality, the identity. It's always looking for some finality of let me get to this place. Yeah. And then it'll be completely okay.

And then I won't have to continue to go. I won't have to deal with this anymore. I think that's the, that's the, that's the ego. Like that, that particular thing is, if, if, if, if, It's the ego's way of reinstating itself. Totally. And the other thing about it is, I think about the same thing, but I think about it slightly differently, is like, when does an oak tree stop evolving?

When is it done? When is like any life form done? Life in general done, the planet done? Like, there's just like, there's no done. I don't even get that concept. But I remember striving like hell for a decade to be done. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, I think in some ways not to be like esoteric. about anything, but I think in some ways... Let's do it, bro. Please. I think in some ways, like, this is part of what is happening in culture and society is that we have older's and not elders. We have a whole bunch of people that at some point in their life, they're like, I'm good.

I'm not going to continue to mature at all. I'm not interested in that game because it's really fucking hard. And it is really fucking hard. And I think that that's something that has, because the therapeutic industrial complex and psychology has been commodified. It's very easy to sell people on quick fixes and, you know, endpoints and outcomes. And we forget to teach them that part of this really is about maturation and that maturation isn't about you. It's not about you. It's about you being able to be of service in a greater, deeper way to other people, to community, to world, et cetera.

But that, I think that's really gotten lost in the sauce of, you know, online. It's up. mountain stuff. Yeah. It's like, oh, you're going to be better. You're going to be fixed. And that's super alluring. And so I think, I think sometimes we need that though to like hook people in and be like, okay, come on in. Like you're going to. So, so I mean, I think, you know, you asked your client, did you get a manual? I think the problem is exactly what you've said, is that actually most people do get manuals. Like you go, I'm going to sell you one for 99, 99, 99 on the internet. Like, right? So everyone is selling you. Well, the most dangerous manual of all is the one you don't realize it's a manual. It's the values that you just imbibed that you, that you through osmosis,

took in as you were growing up. And then this becomes this weird kind of source code that you have to go in and unpick. I think, fuck, I didn't even choose to learn this. I didn't even know I was learning it. At least if it's the $99 thing on the internet, there was some volition. I had to put a credit card in or watch the Jordan Peterson video or whatever. Like the stuff that you have, and I think this is why we talked about this yesterday, modern therapy culture, and the concern that some people have that the abundance in use of therapy is causing people to cut their parents off is, well, that's me unpicking a relatively nuclear hammer to unpick a lot of the source code that was inside of me.

Yeah, and I think kind of like you said about outcomes, you know, like we are becoming a society that's outcome oriented. It's like valuations, what's the stock market, what's the KPI, even with therapy and the programs that we develop, they're really successful. and they're focused on outcomes, right? Because that's how you measure, that's how you make predictions. It's also how you motivate.

Yes. Yeah. And this is one of the things that having three people that have done a total lifetime self-work of more than some people that are listening to this, like you guys between me will have meditated for more time than some people listening to this have been alive, like, which I don't know, maybe close.

Definitely. So one of the problems that you end up with there is like trying to shortcut through the mountain or tell people that the mountain doesn't exist. And it's like, yeah, I know, but the world has never shown me that I'm even worth anything. And part of me just wants some motherfucking proof. Right.

Like, I just want some proof that I can like do things. That's where climbing the mountain's really important. Yeah, can we break this down into like two pieces that I think might be helpful for the listener? One is, I think everybody needs to develop a sense of self-worth, which is relational based, it's attachment base. And in my opinion, and then second, people need to develop self-esteem. They need to have some level. of confidence, competence, capability.

And those two modalities are very different modalities to build and develop. And oftentimes what's happening for a lot of people is that they're lacking in a sense of worth and value. And how they're trying to acquire that or develop it is through stacking up competencies and proficiencies and being very capable. And it doesn't actually help them fill the gap of I have inherent worth. I actually matter. Because you're constantly going to have to perform.

If people only love me for what I do, that means that no one loves me for who I am. And also, if I stopped doing what I do, the love that I do have, because it's contingent on me doing the thing, requires me to continue to do the thing. And if I stopped doing the thing, the love would go away. Yeah, and so you better keep podcasting.

So you better keep podcasts. I had 1,200 episodes in, what the fuck you think I'm doing. Yeah, I mean, I totally agree. So, I mean, this is something I realized recently, I've been working with people for a while and solving your problems doesn't solve your problems. You know, so like if you have low self-esteem

and this is what we see with imposter syndrome, so what's really interesting is imposter syndrome, I went to Tufts for medical school and Harvard for residency, and the rate of imposter syndrome at Harvard is astronomically higher. Right? So when you have this self-esteem problem and you start racking up substitutes for

a self-suffer. esteem, I think, is a good word to start, but I think we're going to get methodologically deeper than that. You know, it just, it just doesn't work. And there is a, there is a role, and this is what I've seen, each thing has its place. And the moment that you start substituting one thing for another thing. So competence, success in the world, I'm not anti these things. I don't think any of us is anti these things, right? Climbing to the top of the mountain has a lot of value because once you're at the top of the mountain, you've got a good view. but don't the top of the mountain is not a substitute for the bottom of the mountain. And so by all means strive, achieve their methodologies to do that.

But I completely agree with what Connor is saying that like that is not a substitute, which I think is the theme that's kind of floating to surface, is like you can't dodge the work. And right a lot of the time the work that you think is the work is not. The work that you think is the work is a substitute for what the actual work is. like if I just do the grit and spit and sawdust thing. I had this line that people seem to like where I kind of called out endurance athletes. People are prepared to deal with discomfort as long as they get to choose the flavor of their discomfort. That I can do hard things is very easy in some ways to the ultra runner who will go and train

and do a 50K warm up for the race they've got next weekend but won't go home and have a difficult conversation with their spouse. You go, okay, uh-huh, that's interesting. I do hard things, but only in this domain over here, not in this one that's right in front of me. That's great. So the work is not always the work. I mean, I was thinking about what Joe said and, you know, that one of the most dangerous

things I think that you're kind of alluding to is like, we stop allowing ourselves to want things that we can't have, right? So if I'm afraid that I can't achieve something, I will trick myself. into not wanting it, which I think methodologically is, and I'd love to hear your expansion on that, but I think methodologically is the mechanism by which people fall into your problem. I don't, I can't get my parents to love me. And instead of facing that full on, so what I'm going to do is try to make them proud. Totally.

Yeah. Yeah. 100%. But I think that's what I would say the place I'd expand there is that's because wanting is one of the most difficult emotions to that people to the the people they resist that emotion they resist feeling that emotion to actually sit down to want to actually sit down like right now and say I'm just going to allow myself to like deeply want I don't even care if it's anything like want nothing but just have that feeling of wanting most people find that incredibly uncomfortable

That's really interesting because much of the concerns about malaise for modern people is in desire, right? Desiring, desiring the wrong thing, taking what society tells me that I want. At the very beginning of this conversation, it's like, what do I want? Yeah. So let's take this nicotine, for instance. Like if I pull this nicotine out of here, I'm like, cool. If I want that thing and then I just put in my mouth, I'm done with the feeling of wanting. Keep that right there.

look at it the entire time, want it the entire time, that's feeling wanting. So I'm not suggesting that the problem isn't like just grabbing the thing that you want right away. It's actually the feeling of wanting is something that most people do not want to sit with. Why? Because it's one of the few things, one of the few emotional experiences where you have to acknowledge that you are not in control. You're not in control of your wanting. You're not in control of your need. you're not in control.

Gratitude is another place where you're not in control. You have to acknowledge something greater than yourself. And people, they like destroys the entire identity aspect of it's me, I've got to do it. Why did I fuck up? You had this great word for it. You talked about thinking about yourself is kind of at the base of all the, all the, in our interview, in our conversation, you thought thinking about yourself and constantly having self-referential thoughts. Chris, depression and a whole lot like narcissism.

Self-referencing? Default mode network activation. Yes, exactly. And something like allowing yourself to feel wanting actually starts deteriorating your identity. And that's why people don't want to do it. What desires inside of ourselves should we trust? Say it again.

What desires? What wants should we trust? I'm not saying trust or distrust. I say feel. Right, okay. Feel the thing. It's not about taking action or not taking action. Are you willing to completely feel the thing?

And if you take a want, any want, and you say, okay, what's the need behind that want? So you start off, I want, I want porn, right? Okay, what's the need behind that want? Oh, I want to feel calm. Okay, what's the need behind that want? Oh, underneath calmness, I want to feel like I actually have like some sort of connection. Okay, what's the need behind connection? What you'll notice is all that those superficial wants are all just strategies to get to some of your basic core wants.

but because we don't want to feel that core want, that pain, we just move to the thing that's on top. Okay, I'll take the porn. Can I expand? Yeah, please. Okay, so I hope this is closer to methodology. So my answer is slightly different, but I'm pretty sure we all agree on everything. So the reason I think want is hard to sit with is because it's actually the foundation of all suffering. So if you think about what is peace, what is contentment, contentment is the absence of want. So I'm hungry.

That is a disturbance of my peace. I want food. Want is the biological source of survival. Right. So if you look at any living organism. Of evolution, too. Of evolution? Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so biology alopecia. Yeah. Right. So this is the problem with being human, and this is the problem with being a living organism. It's like even an amoeba that encounters some toxic pH will want to move away from it. So I think even if you look at fear, what is fear?

Fear is a want for safety. What is anger? Anger is a want for territory, a wanting of safety. What is lust? It's wanting, you know. Pretty good. Right. And even if you look at like, okay, can I tunnel through?

This is a want for the avoidance of hard work. So this is something that I think the Buddha taught, and this is something that's really fascinating. I don't know if you guys noticed this, but no one teaches the Buddha's teachings. Have you guys noticed this? Like there's a Bible, which is like what Jesus taught. And then there's a Christian, there's the Bhagwad Githa, which is what Krishna taught. There's the Quran, which is what Muhammad taught. where's where's buddha's book it's the polycanon so we have a bunch of buddhists teachers who are teaching some permutation of the buddha do you guys know why that is

it's because if the buddhahs teachings were taught today he'd get tarred feathered and crucified his teachings are so contrary and they are the methodology right so buddhah says something really interesting which is if you have pain your reaction to the pain is what suffering is. You can't control that there's going to be pain in life. Like bad shit is going to happen. It's the way that you react to it. Right. So Joe, when faced with the car, holds his pitchfork, it's your reaction to it.

That's really all you control in life is the way that you react to things, which then gets a problem in agency. And I've worked with lots of addicts who can't control their reactions. And then, but he says something. So that is like something that in the commoditization of therapy, we love to tell. patients like, ah, you have pain. She has dumped you. You cannot control it. But don't, don't feel bad, bro. Right? Let's talk about your feelings. It's okay. What we don't tell people is the Buddha says there's an even more insidious thing, which is that pleasure, which is the opposite of pain, is not something that you can control in life. When you wake up, when you walk outside after Love Island, you have no control over seeing the Milky Way in that

evocation of positive feeling. So pleasure you can't control in life. And when you attach yourself to pleasure, which is often used as an antidote to pain, it creates obsession. So pain leads to suffering if you don't react to it correctly. Pleasure leads to obsession if you don't react to it correctly. If you hold on to pleasure, if you strive for wanting, if you want to satisfy your wants, that's going to be where you lose control of your life. And I think you're spot on and it's so interesting because I had a meditation teacher who told me like, here's how you conquer desire. And he said, so he said, I used to be addicted to potato chips.

And so he said, like, you know, what would happen is I'm like, I'm yoga, yogi, Rishikes, Haridwar, Himalayas, right? So I'm going to do sadana, proper spiritual practice, not this white people thing. Okay. So then he's like, I really like potato chips and like this is something I must conquer to become enlightened. Just one step away. I just want a fucking potato chip. Once I stop the potato chip eating, then I'll be done.

Exactly. Then I'll be done. Exactly. I know you will. So his teacher tells. So then what would happen is he'd like resist and you'd resist and resist. And then one day, because this is in India, this is many years ago. But in India, like, you can't get potato chips at a store.

They fry them fresh on the street. So you have like potato chip vendor. which is like delicious. You're walking past. You're walking past like fresh made potato chips at all time. They're going to be stale in an hour. But man, when they come out and they sprinkle that masala on top, it's like, it's straight fire. So one day the guy like goes into town and then some guys like frying some potato chips.

And then he cracks. And then he hates it. And so his teacher tells him. So then he goes and he confesses and he's like, I have a problem. He's like, what's your problem? It's like, what's what you need to do. I need to beat myself up over something. So I was thinking potato chips?

Yeah. That's the one. Good enough. Good enough. And so his teacher tells him, stop resisting the potato chips. And he says, when next time you go to store, like, get a bag, you know, if they get stale, go get another bag. Like, whatever. Stop resisting the potato chips.

But all you should do is any time you want a potato chip, just be aware of it. And you can gratify it or not gratify it. I don't really care about that. Just notice what happens within you when you want the potato chip. potato chip, notice what happens? What is the nature of satisfaction that you receive from a potato chip? And so this is the most fundamental exercise, which I think is like what's really scary and what's really contrary is the methodology is not, I mean, sometimes it's action. Sometimes you got to get to the top of the mountain. But sometimes the methodology is awareness. And what frightens me, what frustrates me,

what makes me feel obsolete is that I think awareness like does away with my whole. fucking profession. That's true. All of you guys would be out of a job if everyone was sufficiently aware. Yes. And I wouldn't even, I wouldn't say like awareness. If you posit it that way, there's some level of awareness that you could have. If everybody trusted their awareness, we'd be out of a profession. I don't think it's like some level of awareness. It's just trusting their awareness. It's so interesting how levels and experience and getting there squeezes into the conversation. Yeah.

Baked in this when I get to point, or what's sufficient? Yeah. What's the saturation dose? Yeah. What's the efficacious dose of awareness in order for me to have achieved this thing. Yeah. And it's so scary, like how powerful awareness is. Oh, my God.

Okay, so just to back to like actual things you can do and and geeking out for a second. I love the awareness one. I have found that that works with pretty good. see. The other one I love is, I love this one particularly for porn addiction. Use porn any time you want, be aware of the porn. But your job is to make sure that the porn that you use is always more enjoyable than the last time you use porn. You have to figure out a way to make porn super enjoyable. Like, whatever you have to do, like candles, whatever you got to do to like make porn more and more enjoyable. I didn't mean like quick pleasure. I mean like you're really savoring, feeling the pleasure.

You can do the same thing with potato chips. If someone actually does that, it like disrupts bad habits, unbelievably quickly. On the surface, what that sounds like is you speed running the hedonic treadmill and that, oh, well, this is going to make the habit even more alluring, even more addictive, even more self-reinforcing. Why is that not the case? Why does it do something else? Yeah. So, most of the time the person who's doing it is trying to escape an emotional experience. So I'm going to use porn so I don't have to think about something, not have to be in pain, not have to, so I can cure my anxiety in that moment in that second. This is bringing such a deep amount of presence to it.

To actually enjoy it, you actually have to have presence. And then you start to find out is that the enjoyment is far better than what porn was giving you. There's a neuroscience version. Please. So I think, so when he says enjoy porn, notice what he also says. Don't tug one out, bro. Yeah. Right.

So this is what I think is really interesting. A lot of people don't realize pleasure and contentment are inversely related. Okay. So the more pleasure you have in your life, the less content you'll be. And this is down to the neuroscience level. So dopamine and serotonin are like, this is rough. but if you guys want to get complicated, we can. Dopamine and serotonin are like inversely related.

So if you look at someone who has a highly dopaminergic life like the person I wanted to be, right? So a lot of sex, a lot of affairs. Pointing at you, not me. I'm just saying. A lot of, or as much anal as you can handle. Just have anal sex, bro. Is that he? Just say yes to anal.

That's going to be. I have practical teachings too. I have practical teachings too. So literally, like if you live a dopaminergic lifestyle, you will be, your serotonin levels will drop. And so you will become discontent. And then you chase dopamine. So dopamine is a substitute for serotonin. And then what we find is that as people become more content, their draw for dopamine decreases.

On average, would you say that more people have a dopamine problem than a serotonin problem? They're using that, they're chasing after that, whereas if they were more in, I always think about dopamine, Chris, serotonin, Chris, and cortisol Chris. Like, dopamine Chris is achieving things and making new 24-hour play records on the channel. Serotonin Chris is relaxing in a hammock, and cortisol Chris is arguing about something over email. What's the word you're using Chris? Chris himself. Chris. Oh, okay. I was like, oh, I was going to say, oxytocinchrist.

Oxatocin chris, yeah. I'm scared that it's going to go away. Annal sex? That's all three. No, no. I'm sorry for opening that door. More people in serotonin problem, more people in dopamine problem. So I'd say that you can't have one problem without the other, right?

So the whole point is that they're related. So if you have a dopaminergic, that's a problem. If you live a dopaminergic lifestyle, your serotonin, by definition, is going to be low. And if you look at these yogis in the Himalayas, they're, I mean, no one's doing intracel, not even intracellular, intercellular measurements of dopamine and serotonin between neurons, like no one's like doing brain biopsies to measure that stuff. So this is basically functional neuroscience. But if you look at like a yogi, a yogi is content. And so they can still engage in pleasure, but that contentment is also enters the endocannabinoids circuitry. But if you

think about your peace, right? If I am fundamentally content, and I think this is what I'd love to get to the methodology of that bifurcation that you were talking about is I think this is what Conner's talking about is like, if you are confident in yourself, if you're relationally connected, the fuel that dopamine, the problems that dopamine solves actually disappear. And I think that's what he's talking about as well, which is like, if you don't tug one out, which by the way is the hard part if you're addicted, right? Especially if you're watching pulling with candles on. Right. There comes a time where I just get outgunned at these conversations.

I don't even know. How many of that? You know? So, and so I think, one day I'll be strong enough. One day. One day. One day. So, so we get, you know, we get to this point where like, what I really like about that exercise, it's a shift to serotonin. It's a shift to, this is exactly the potato chip exercise.

When you start to settle in awareness, when you become aware of something, the bite of it literally decreases. And there's some fascinating neuroscience about this where like, I don't know if this kind of makes sense, but you know if I, you know the difference between people who dance and people who don't know how to dance?

Confidence? One said is traumatized. So I think one group tries to do it and one group doesn't try to do it. Does that make sense? Yeah, I get what you're saying. Right? So something really interesting happens.

So if I were to like give you guys like something to eat and I tell you consciously control every movement, you would not be able to chew. If I tell you consciously, okay, contract the calf, now lift, now extend the foot, now put it down. So anytime you become aware of something, something really interesting happens. the anterior singular cortex, once that turns on and you become aware of something, the automaticity of the brain turns off. Right. So I think this serotonergic circuit is really, I mean, it's fascinating. But like, the more aware you become, things just lose their power.

Like the power that emotions have over you, if you really lean into the emotion and you feel that emotion, that reckoning of pain, right? Like when you actually face that reckoning, when you face it. the music, the strength that it has to control you actually goes away. That's cool. You create a pattern interrupt, right? Like when you think about the porn example, somebody's feeling something, they're anxious, they're angry, they're bored, they're lonely, they don't want to feel that way. Their brain has created a, because our brains are largely pattern recognition machines,

and they're looking for patterns to largely keep us safe. And so for a lot of guys, they're watching porn, they're rewatching porn because they feel feel a certain way that they don't want to feel. And their brain has learned, oh, and I feel this, when this emotion pops up in my body, I go jerk off. And that cycle plays out. And they have a very specific cycle. There's a cycle of how they do it and when they do it and how they're feeling before. There's a whole, there's a whole cycle that plays out. And then they always feel a specific way after, which is usually shame, regret, you know, it's like, what's the post nut regret, right? It's like, what the fuck was I just watching? And so what Joe's talking about is creating a,

different type of confrontation or a type of confrontation that creates a different pattern that starts to slow things down and accentuate from a place of like, okay, what am I actually feeling? What I've given to guys is set a timer, go sit down, go breathe and feel into what you're feeling. And I called it the fire meditation. And it's like, okay, you're feeling something in that moment that you're running from. Yeah. And you don't want to feel it. You're feeling anger. You're feeling loneliness, you're feeling whatever it is, and you are avoiding it. And so let's move towards it, right? Jung talked about, Carl Jung talked about, like, when you are facing a monster in a dream, the worst thing you can do is run from it. And, but this is what we do when we have

habits or behaviors or choices that we largely don't want to deal with or emotions that we don't want to deal with. We run from them. And so what, what all often do with men is let's turn towards it. So he says, when there's a monster in a dream, the first thing that you need to do is you need to turn towards it. And you need to turn towards the thing that you're afraid of, or you don't want to feel, or you don't want to experience, because not always,

but sometimes it'll start to dissipate. You can start to build a relationship with it. And instead of, oh, I feel this way, I don't want to feel this way, it's, oh, I feel this way, and I'm starting to build tolerance for it. I'm actually still okay, even though I'm feeling this way.

And that oftentimes is a byproduct of a family system, a nervous system within a family system where somebody just didn't learn how to deal with heart emotions, right? They didn't learn how to deal with anger or anxiousness or whatever it is. And so they've adopted all of these methods to deal with internal states that they don't like. Like a lot of dysfunction that people are experiencing is I'm experiencing an internal state that I don't like. And I have all of these ways of avoiding what's happening inside of me. And so, I think part of what we're talking about is how do we support people in turning towards the internal state that they're ultimately trying to avoid. And one of the things that I say to guys all the time is like, there's no change without some form of confrontation.

There's no change without some form of confrontation. Super union. And it's like, but that's, and I think from a masculine perspective, that is something that we're really missing. Like a lot of young men are, they have been neutered when it comes. to confrontation. They've been told that confrontation is toxic. They've been told that confrontation is bad. They're wrong for it. And so they're really these fragile... Not just men. And I was the same way, right? Like I, you know, I was okay with getting into bar fights. That was totally okay. That type of confrontation was fine. But I wasn't okay with the

confrontation of like, wow, I feel really fucking sad, or I feel really weak, or I'm really scared about this thing. That type of confrontation was never taught to me. And I think that that's the case for so many people where they're not taught how to confront the hard negative perceived and negative experiences that are going on inside of them. Surely it becomes very pernicious when the coping mechanism is something that's lauded by other people. So this is where it gets very squarely and might be interested. Maybe we could go to the methodology of the rock bottom thing.

There's one more thing about that. The other thing that's in my approach, which is it's the thing about the negative self-talk, right? So as long as the thing that you're doing is bad, shame makes it so that we get stuck in a pattern. Like if I look, if I say to you, hey, what are the 10 things that you've been telling yourself not to do for a decade that you're still doing? I can tell you, you have shame around them and it sounds like I should do this. Why don't I do this? I have to do this. And so the things that you sell yourself you should be doing are the things that you're guaranteed not to do because shame is the lock that holds the chains of bad habits in place.

And so to some degree, what I'm doing is I'm taking the shame out of the masturbation or the porn addiction. Totally. And so it's an interesting thing. What I notice is the confrontation critical, like everything you said, I'm like, wow, totally right. We have a whole course on how to feel difficult emotions. And but the other thing is that helps a lot with that is how do we really question the shame? Like really, okay, so you whack off to porn, you're bad for that, I get it. So that makes like what percentage of American men bad?

Are they all bad? Right. Like, what do you say to yourself? Can you say it to them? Why don't you say it to them right now? Let's see how much the shame holds up outside of your internal dialogue. We do an exercise at our men's retreats where we have guys write out their specific internal dialogue.

Like, say verbatim how you speak to yourself. and they write it out and then we pair them up with another guy and then we say okay talk to that man we have that exact exercise we have that exact exercise that's funny yeah and so it's it's it's fascinating but i think can we talk about shame for a one can i just say yeah i think shame shame shame's a great place yeah because if you can crack shame you can crack everything else a lot easier yeah practically speaking i think what's i think what's i'll talk about it above and then kind of drill down into it i think what's interesting is that for many men they are trying to deploy shame because shame is is in many ways a compliance-based emotion.

It is a, I'm going to try and get myself to comply. And usually that's because they've grown up in an environment where compliance was something that a parent was seeking with them. And they were deploying shame to try and get that compliance. The problem is that you are always in a kind of one-down situation. You're always in a smaller, inferior position when shame is. being deployed. And so I think for a lot of men, part of the challenge is that they, and I'll just come back out to culture, it's become very socially acceptable to try and use shame to gain

compliance online. And that has become something so rampant that I think it should not be necessarily tolerant. Like that should be confronted, I think, in our, in our culture. And it doesn't work. And it doesn't work. Wow, that person is now compliant now that you shame them online. Right. as like what maybe never been said. Exactly. But, you know, there is a kind of, uh, when somebody has been shamed long enough, that becomes their identity structure.

Yeah, yeah. There's something defective within me. There's something wrong with me. And then they try and deploy shame to get out of it. You know, it's like maybe I'll just use this fuel enough to get out of this experience. And it never works, like the Chinese finger trap. Yeah. Um, and so I think that's important.

for people to understand. It's like you can't deploy shame or leverage shame to really get to the place that you're wanting to go. You might be able to shame your way into some achievements that. I'm sure we've all seen that in clients where they leverage shame, you know, to win some award or get some achievement. But at the end of the day, shame is not a, an internal state that you're going to be able to leverage for success, for fulfillment, at least. Yeah, the way I think about it too is shame basically sends a message you're broken. Right? Like you were bad for doing porn means you're broken.

Yeah, I'm faulty. Right. I'm faulty. I'm broken. And so how am I going to make myself succeed by keep on telling myself I'm broken? Like instead of telling myself I'm whole that I'm capable, like, you know, can you imagine an NFL football player? okay I'm going to go out there

and I'm going to get a touchdown because I'm broken because I'm fucked up and because I never catch the goddamn ball. Like never. But somehow or another you think that's going to work for yourself. I just hard disagree. So this is interesting.

The smile on the face. You can use it. Right. So I think are you going to find a football player? Yeah. I think half of them are going to think that in different words. Right.

So I think when we look at the heights of performance, so experience that I've had, with shame, like, in terms of the work that I do, which... And I'm wondering, actually, how much of this is, like, different populations. So when you were, like, can you say this to somebody else about the porn that you like? Like, I don't know if you guys know what 4chan is. You guys know what 4chan is? Yeah.

So, like, people on 4chan, yeah, they can do that shit all day long. Fulchan is, like, Reddit's Reddit. Yeah. It's like if Reddit had all of the guidelines... Everyone who's banned from Reddit goes... It's basically just neckbeard. Right. So it's completely Just neck beards? Yeah, neckbeards.

Yeah. So, so and like I agree 100% with, I think we're all like on the same page about what this path is. I think that the challenging thing is like can you, the things that you tell yourself, can you tell it to other people? There's a whole crop of people that are like, yeah, going back to the training that they got through, they've been told it. The cycle of abuse continues, right? They can absolutely, the glove that you guys are throwing down, there's a lot of people that can pick that up. I'm not saying whether they can or can't. And I'm not sure if it changes your point,

but what I've noticed is when people are confronted with how they talk to themselves in the mirror of talking to somebody else that way, it has a large effect on a majority of the population. I'm sure there's like people who are masochistic. I think that if you look at something like, A great example of this is imposter syndrome. So imposter syndrome is literally like a cognitive pattern, which is when I win, it's luck.

When somebody else wins, it's hard work. And when confronted, that's a great example of confronting the dichotomy between the way that you treat yourself and the way that you treat other people. So I totally get what y'all are saying. And I think when it comes to shame, I think the hard thing about shame is that it is, actually like the most motivating emotion. Totally. So it's the lock for your habits. And the challenge that I usually face with people is getting them.

See, a lot of people function under the assumption that if they don't beat themselves up, that's their primary motivational system. Correct. Yeah. So when that falls apart. Who am I? Who am I? Who am I? Who am I?

How am I? achieve. Yeah. Right. All that stuff. And so everything falls apart. So people get really attached to it. I mean, the number of interviews that I've done, these are the public. But it's not effective. Define effective. It's a, I think it's effective in achieving results. But it's not a check. It's not effective in being able to reap the rewards of the achievements. Like, yes. There's so many people that I've worked with where they've leveraged shame and that internal compliance system to achieve results. And then they get to the top. And they're like, well, I don't actually feel any reward because of that the distinction i would make there is that the shame can allow you to create but it is incredibly ineffective at getting you to stop

shaming yourself to stop porn is very ineffective that's not shaming yourself to stop cigarettes very ineffective shaming yourself so it's what i'm saying is the behaviors you want to stop is where shame is super ineffective no matter i think that that would be an argument to be made that starting a new behavior can be the stopping of an old one. Like, shaming myself out of, I want to stop eating potato chips or I want to start being fit, right? Like, you can stop eating potato chips because you start going to the gym and that builds this sort of spiral of better habits. But the shame can be a kickstarter. I think the shame, I would also say long term, my experience is long term shame on a long term like workout thing.

it can get you started, but I don't see people use shame on a regular basis to be able to like have prolonged. It's a dirty fuel. You burn out. Yeah. There's a shirt. I wonder about I think I'm on your side with this about shame being quite effective at achieving an outcome. It's just the outcome that you achieve is not the one that solves the problem that you were trying to escape from the shame in the first place. Yes. Yeah. So I think we're like I think we're all on the same page. I think this is where we get to the methodology because if we challenge this perspective, Right? So I think the thing you're saying, yeah, shame is not effective at stopping behaviors. Yeah. Which generally speaking, I think the behaviors that you cited are neuroscientifically

specific to being ineffective with shame. And the reason is because if you talk about addictive behaviors, pornography, the thing that makes pornography the most addictive from a neuroscience perspective is the emotional regulation component. So we've just evolved that when sex enters the picture for men especially, that everything else leaves the, like you can be an 80-year-old dude with metastatic cancer and you can still engage in sexual intercourse, right? So I think when we're talking about addiction specifically, shame fuels activates the structure that we're using pornography to calm down. So 100% agree. The challenge is that I think many people, their problem is not stopping behaviors. Their problem is an inefficiency of starting. So if I'm a four-channer,

24 years old, sitting at home, jerking off all day, don't know how to leave the house, don't know how to get a job, I should be studying, I want to do this, I want to do this, I want to do this. And I think we've all seen this, right? I don't really interact with that population much. So I do. But I mean, I think we've seen, we've seen shame being motivated. is a powerful motivator to get started, right? To make a million, to make 10 million, to make 100 million. And as long as the shame is there and people are terrified, my experience of working with shame is that people don't want to let it go because they're terrified of what is on the other side because shame is such a powerful motivator.

Can I just maybe get a framework that I think might be helpful here? From my experience, shame is a very personality based. it roots itself into the personality and not necessarily into the core self. So like Jung talked about core self and then shadow and animus and all the rest of it. But I think one of the things that I've seen is that shame becomes the kind of blinders that get put on the person's ego or identity where they stop seeing their core self. And we could use different words for that. but I think it becomes the blinders for somebody to be able to see,

I have worth, I have self-worth, I have inherent value, I matter inherently. And that's what the giant threat is, right? It's like if I let go of this shame, if I start to confront this shame,

what's going to happen to my ego? Because my ego structure, my sense of personality and identity, is so fraught with shame, that's who I think I am. And so I think, Part of the first step of differentiation is to be able to, like, I have this saying with my son, which is, I love you for who you are, no matter what you do.

And so I'm separating personhood from behavior. Yeah. Very simple principle, separating personhood from behavior. Who you are, your personhood, your sense of self, is inherently good no matter, not no matter, but no matter what you do, no matter what you accomplish, no matter what you achieve. And I think that the average person who is fraught with shame, whether it's through trauma or abuse, or, you know, neglect and abandonment, part of what they're experiencing is that they've never had that differentiation. Somewhere along the way, that differentiation didn't happen. And so their

sense of self is what is broken. They can't actually touch that or see it. Yeah. So what I think is so interesting about that, and I think we're getting there, is the number of people I've worked with who are allergic to the thought that I have inherent self-worth. Totally. Yeah. They, They hate that. What's the classic avatar of that kind of person? So real quick, before we, the other thing I'm noticing is all of our stories about hitting rock bottom,

they're all a confrontation with shame. Absolutely. I mean, mine was, yeah. Yeah. It's like, in some way, it's kind of like, oh, and letting go, the confrontation, this is actually what's happening and letting it go.

We're all kind of part of all of our stories. I really did fundamentally believe I was, like my core identity was, I'm broken. something's wrong with me. I have to root out what's wrong with me and figure that out. Yeah. Yeah. So I think that we're getting to ego, I want to just touch on one piece of methodology about shame. So when I encounter people like this, because it's kind of interesting, because they don't, it's a different challenge if they don't want to let go of the shame. And usually the way to get around that that I found

is effective is actually going back to wants because shame is the gap between what you are and what you want to be. Yeah. So shame cannot exist without want. And then we get to what's beautiful is what you started with. What do you want? What do you really want? What do you really want? And then we get to so many people let go of their wants because they can't achieve them. They believe that they can't achieve them. Yeah. Or they don't want to feel them. Or they don't want to actually feel it. Feel what? The want. Yeah, 100%. Right. Yeah. A hundred percent, right? That's why they let go of it. That's why they drown it out because the thought of wanting something and knowing that you can't get it is like so crushing.

And so what I tend to lean into with these people is let's let's struggle. Let's get to want. Like what is it that you really want? And then this is also where we get to kind of like failing forward, right? And I hate that term actually because it implies that fail will result in forward. The real solution, right? Oh, like you'll get it. You'll get success.

Just fail first. Success is there. Guaranteed. Fail. Then success comes. Right? So we're actually playing into it with all this stuff. It's baked so much into the current frame of our society where it's like, no, actually what you need to do.

And I think this is the confrontation that we're talking about is you need to fail and that's it, bro. If you want freedom, you need to be able to fail, like face that failure and be like, hey, fucked it up. Yeah. That's it. guys I love all of you you you fucking rule having three of you in the room has been like a little dream of mine for a while and it's just wonderful to have you uh send people we'll go around the room one final time and direct people to the stuff that you do or whatever you think's best for them to yeah it's just man talks everywhere man talks on youtube man's on instagram my book is called men's work that's it at art of accomplishment dot com or at the youtube channel probably is the best place to start or the podcast Yeah, so I'd say, I mean, Healthy Gamer G is the YouTube channel, but I think if people want entertaining stuff that will teach them a little bit, that's good. But if people want deeper stuff, I am really loving the membership thing that we built. And it was supposed to end in six months and it's been going for two years. So I think it's like depending on what you guys want, but Healthy Gamer Gigi. I should say we have a membership as well called The Alliance and we've got like 1,500 guys in there. That's awesome.

Yeah, that's a good place to be. And do you do retreat? You don't do anything in person, no? Now, I'm avoidant of relations. That's true. I'm going to drag you out. I have one for you. You'll be in the woods wearing a plaid shirt, cutting shit with you at some point.

It's crying in a flower flower. It's not at all we do. I think I am the most inspired to do a retreat or some kind of impersonal thing. It just all the questions that you have. Yeah, I think because I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm super familiar with Joe's work and as familiar you can be without going through it. And, you know, learning about Connor. But, like, I mean, I think I guess I have to now.

This is the gravitational pull. Once with next year we'll be back and be like, it's relationships. And we're like, no, it isn't. We're like in solitude. The spiral gets very spirals. Just awareness on your own. Yeah, boys, I love you all. You're the best.

Can I just ask one? So one last question. just going to bottom me later. So like, here's my take on relationships is at some point the relationship enters you, right? It has an impact in you. And so I don't know exactly what I'm trying to ask, but like my experience has been that it is the part within you

that you actually can modulate some. That is like the most important. I know we're done. You said something that I'm going to kind of answer it sideways, but you said something about not needing a relationship and I think it's both. There's something in me that is like if I need the relationship, if the relationship is like something that I need them to say yes or no or happy or sad

or approve or disapprove, then that's no good. But if I can't like, if I can't be in awe the way he is of a night sky at that moment of a relationship and how much it's affecting me, then also. So to me, it's finding that balance between those two things is where, like, the best pointer I have. So would you say there's a difference

between the Milky Way and a relationship? Not if I'm relating to them in the same way. So I think we do agree. Okay. Right? So that's kind of what I mean. It's like, and when it crosses over, there is a,

there is like a universe, at the ground level, which I don't think is, I guess, special to humans, which we have pets and stuff. Yeah, I mean, I am that, right? It's like you're having the awareness of you are me in some capacity. And so to have a relationship with you in a deep way is to have a deeper relationship with myself. and there's, you know, we have the differentiation, but also, you know, it's collapsing the duality. It's realizing that that's somewhat of an illusion, right? It's like by having a relationship with you, I have a relationship with self in that moment. And that that's the ultimate, maybe not ultimate, because that's like puts an ascension

orientation towards it, but it's like, I'm in relationship with self. by being with you, by seeing you, by understanding you, by having you be a mirror of my projections and all those different pieces. And so, you know, it's hard because at some point, the further out we get, the more into spiritual principles we get, and the harder it is for people to follow those things. You know what I want as a sequel? And I'm aware that everyone's got horrendous fucking schedules.

So trying to play calendar tetras. it's not always easy we'll make time for you I would love I have an idea and I'm open to you guys suggesting something else I would love to do

a beginner's guide to spirituality as a next round table like for the people who are like I have this sense that there's something more and how the fuck

do I step into that could be because everyone here what's been cool interesting at least for me in the conversation is there is a little bit of an elephant

in the room and the elephant in the room is that everybody sat at this table, even me, but maybe a lower degree than you guys, has this like, we've almost skirted around it to some degree, like, yeah, there's like calmer and stuff, and like, here's how it works, like, you know, but there's this other bit, but like, well, that's a huge rabbit hole that we can't, vortex that we can't go down.

And then there's senses of God or presence or, you know, the divine or awakening or detachment from, da, da, da. And I'm interested in, what a conversation of stepping into that, like the beginner's guide to spirituality would be, that would be like a fucking cool potential future

conversation. Sex and spirituality. I was going to say like, are we bumping sex for this? Oh, you want to do four hours on sex? I'll do four hours on sex. I mean, I think it deserves at least that much time. I think it'd be super scared.

Do you notice my ability to stop Joe? Joe, lean into it, bro. Get into the search. Don't turn away. I think you're supposed to technically back up into it, boys. I appreciate it. All right, goodbye, my beauties.

Yes, that was fucking awesome. Amazing, dude. Unbelievable. How much fun.