Modern Wisdom - #642 - Bill Perkins - Why You Should Spend All Of Your Money Before You Die

Episode Date: June 17, 2023

Bill Perkins is a hedge fund manager, high stakes poker player, film producer and an author. What if the true path to financial fulfilment doesn’t lie in saving every penny, but rather in spending it as effectively as you can? Delayed gratification in the extreme results in no gratification, and Bill's book Die With Zero is one of the best financial philosophies I've ever come across. Expect to learn how to maximise your existence for positive life experiences, why you should give your kids their inheritance when they're 30, the most common errors people make about money, why it’s so hard for some of us to spend, the brilliant concept of ‘consumption smoothing’, what Sigmamode grindset-ers are getting wrong about work-life balance, how to plan your life in terms of seasons and much more... Sponsors: Get 20% discount & free shipping on your Lawnmower 4.0 at https://manscaped.com/modernwisdom (use code MODERNWISDOM) Get 15% discount on Mud/Wtr at http://mudwtr.com/mw (use code MODERNWISDOM) Get 10% discount on your first month from BetterHelp at https://betterhelp.com/modernwisdom (discount automatically applied)  Extra Stuff: Buy Die With Zero - https://amzn.to/3MU4q99  Follow Bill on Twitter - https://twitter.com/bp22 Get my free Reading List of 100 books to read before you die → https://chriswillx.com/books/ To support me on Patreon (thank you): https://www.patreon.com/modernwisdom - Get in touch. Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/modernwisdompodcast Email: https://chriswillx.com/contact/  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello friends, welcome back to the show. My guest today is Bill Perkins. He's a head fund manager, high stakes poker player, film producer, and an author. What if the true path to financial fulfillment doesn't lie in saving every penny, but rather in spending it as effectively as you can? Delayed gratification in the extreme results in no gratification, and Bill's book, Die With Zero, is one of the best financial philosophies that I've ever come across. Expect to learn how to maximize your existence for positive life

experiences, why you should give your kids their inheritance when they're 30. The most common errors people make about money, why it's so hard for some of us to spend, the brilliant concept of consumption smoothing, what Sigma Mode grindsetters are getting wrong about work-life balance, how to plan your life in terms of seasons, and much more. I love this. Bill's insights are phenomenal. If you are somebody like me who feels guilty when you spend money, who struggles to do it, perhaps you have come from a working class background and now earn a bit more money than you're used to and you have absolutely no idea what you're supposed to do with your life. This is the conversation for you. I very much appreciate Bill's approach. He's very systematized, very rigorous,

very thoughtful. Yeah, this can make a massive difference to your quality of life and make you feel a lot less guilty, I think as well. In other news, this episode is brought to you by ManScape. The ManScape lawnmower 4.0 is the best ball and bodyhair trimmer ever created. If you are a gentleman who needs to trim your bodyhair, this is the tool you need to get for the job. You should not be using an old face shaver from 4 birthday to go, no, that is going to be trez bad on your body.

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With BetterHelp, you can tap into a network of over 30,000 license and experienced therapists can help you with a wide range of issues. To get started, you just answer a few questions about your needs and preferences in therapy. That way, better help can match you with the right therapist from their network. You can then talk to your therapist, however you feel comfortable, whether it's via text, chat, phone or video call. You can message your therapist at any time and schedule live sessions when it's convenient

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I have a deep fear of wasting my life, you know, and I was thinking about this earlier in life, like kind of what does it all mean? Type conversations that people have. And I was broke, I was trying to work my way up in Wall Street, commodities training. And there's a lot of frustration trying to obtain wealth and get there. And I was like, well, what does it all mean?

What is going to get me? What is the extra money going to get me? And I was thinking about, why don't we be rich when I'm old? Because when we're going to do it money when I'm me, right? What is the extra money gonna get me? And I was thinking about, well, I don't wanna be rich when I'm old because when we're gonna do what money when I'm old, right? My life will have passed me by and what's the money for? When am I gonna buy a different stages in my life? And what are the things that I really want?

And, you know, I was young. So like when you're young, you just think, I just want a bunch of women and a guitar and a fast car and you know, whatever it is, right? All the dumb things that young people think, right? I was kind of on this different advertised autopilot, but I really didn't want to waste my life. I didn't want to go to work and bust my butt and deal with the abuse as clerks deal with trying to get rich for nothing, right?

To have a picket fence and a car and a bigger car and drive my kids to school in a bigger car, right? So, and I also didn't want to go to work for money that was never gonna spend. I didn't want to have unused, chucky cheese tokens. I used chucky cheese, but I realized that internationally people were like, what the hell is he talking about? Chucky cheese tokens.

But I guess a lot of people know what ski ball is when they give you the tickets and you go get the prize, right? You don't want to be playing ski ball, get like, I don't know, a million tickets and just walk out, right? And that was kind of the idea of like working for money that I never would spend or never use. And so I was like, I don't want to waste my life. I don't want to waste my life. What does that mean? How do I optimize my life? How do I get the most to waste my life. I don't want to waste my life. What does that mean? How do I optimize my life? How do I get the most out of my life? Regardless, you know, if I'm going to spend all my money

when, how does that curve work? You know, so I looked at life as kind of like this optimization program. And I tried to distill the variables. And the variables where you're wealth, your health and your time. And I was like, I want to get the absolute most out of this life, absolute most.

And so that's the save my life. And so I know that's a long answer. Maybe we should chop that up a little bit, but I'm gonna tell you, something I usually tell people at the end is that if you save somebody who's drowning, let's say you walk by and they're drowning and you go in and you do the mouth to mouth and they cough up the water dramatically and you're like, oh my God, you saved my life.

And I go, guess what? They're still going to fucking die. They're just not going to die that day. So what did you really do for them? You gave them more, I love you. Well, walks in the park, more trips, more experiences, basically. And so you've optimized their life for more experiences

by pulling them out of the water that day. And so when I write a book about optimizing your life, like not wasting your time being deliberate with your money and getting the most out of it, I feel like I'm doing the same thing to a certain extent. I'm giving you more I love you you, it's more walks in the park, more fulfillment, right? Just as you gave that person the opportunity for more fulfillment when you pulled them out of the water. And so I wrote the book to save my life so that I don't drown in the bullshit,

right? And then hopefully you read the book, you apply the principles and you don't drown in the bullshit and you get more life. I have to say, man, I think that it will be a seminal read as it continues to grow. I know it already has been super successful. But for me, it was very impactful to see something that looks like life design with the finances side with this almost sort of stoic, memento, mori, you know, meditate on death thing that you've got that's going on. I really genuinely think that it's been one of the most impactful things that I've read. I go through an awful lot of books. So personal applicability, it's been very, very important. So you've done amazing work with it. So you should be very proud of it.

I appreciate that. When you're going with this, I'll just say it this way, this counterfactual regret minimization algorithm solving for net fulfillment, right? People are like, what the fuck? These are the algorithms that chest computers use, right? It's just what if scenario analysis and a chest computer is solving for me, right?

And a lot of people run their lives on account of factual or gripping minimizations, solving for the highest net worth, right? And I'm like, no, let's run the algorithm, solving for net fulfillment. That's the purpose of life, right? So we're everybody agrees with me, we're like, okay, good. What resources do we have? What we're going to use your wealth, your health, and your time? How does that apply? You know, I could do it. And I can, you know, there was a lot of debate about how do you sink this message into people, right? Like, people don't want to look at a bunch of spreadsheets, right?

They want to apply it in a visceral way. How did he get the concept in a visceral way? And that's why the book opens with my friend's death, right? Because death has a way of waking people up. Tell us that story. So my friend, Aaron Broadson, her husband, he just, all of a sudden, got diagnosed with cancer, right? Out of nowhere. She calls me up. She knows I do a lot of archaic research and medical and donate medical. Like I went deep dive into MS and had a study actually published on the cover of journal nature.

You only see small ventures USA is funding, but I was getting the scientists and hiring them and getting the lab and the gene sequencing machine or whatever. So I do the deep dive and the deep dive like I'm some sort of medical professional. I did the deep dive as the deep dive, like I'm some sort of medical professional. I did the deep dive as an as in I did enough research to know. This is it, right?

This is over. You know, I said, hey, you need to take time off, spend time with each other, go with the kids, et cetera. She was already on that plan, but you was there to assist. Whatever you need, go enjoy the less time together. It's hard to say that without saying that. You have no hope. Obviously, you're always out for hope in there doing experimental research. He eventually was on the East Coast and, you know, Esfrayals could be, right? Died, she violated, she was going to violate a promise

she made to him, John, by letting the kids see him before he died. So he was gonna go. She calls me up and she's like, I gotta let the kids see him before he dies I told him he didn't want the kids to see him this way, but told him that I got our plane got him on the plane With the you know all the contraptions and he died in the air and they had the land and so that's that story, right? but

You know the point of that story is, is that that's everybody's story. It's just, we just have an elongated time frame. You know, John had a month. You have, I don't know, I look at mine, you got 4,000 weeks, 2,000 weeks, you know, whatever it is, right? And so the question is, is with that vacation that we have here on Earth, right? We have a vacation and it's going to end. What do we want to do with our time here? What do we want our story to be, right? So he was an unfortunate event, but they provide a clarity on what they wanted to do each day, right? And we have that same unfortunate thing, but it's so far away, we're not really paying attention

to our death, we're not remembering death, we're acting like this vacation never ends, right? And we're living on autopilot, which autopilot is great. It helps you drive home without thinking too much. It helps you do your job and get good at your job and skills, but it also puts you in this path to survive, not thrive. And so this kind of, hey, you're going to die.

Hey, this vacation is going to end. This kind of like slap across the face, wake up. I think everybody needs. And that's why I started with death because people connect with dying it, wakes them up, they're like, oh shit, you know, I got to take my life seriously like what am I going to do? What if I was going to die in a month? Okay, I'm not going to die in a month, but I'm going to die probably in 30 years, 36 years. What am I going to do? Like 2040, like you're open to a message, right?

You're most open to change a message, some sort of epiphany when death is on the line. It's a profound story and creating that sense of urgency around your time on this planet is finite. You don't know how finite, but it's finite. You have these nine principles that you run through that I want to go through with you today. The first one is maximise positive life experiences. Right. So, you know, it's kind of like, how do I have this broad definition of what is the purpose of your life? Right? And when I say experience, I really mean your choices, right? Like, you make a choice. I have a choice in wake up. I can come on this podcast and drink water, I can drink a sugar drink, etc.

And those choices drive our fulfillment, right? And they're different for each person, right? Somebody might be like, I'm maximally fulfilled playing a game of chess. Somebody's like, it's swimming. For me, it's travel. For me, it's doing charity work and doing, you know, I make no judgment about what that is. But what I say is that life is a sum of your choices, life

is a sum of your experiences, life is a sum of your positive experiences. And so if you trying to get the most out of this life, let's make the high score positive life experiences. So let's maximize ourselves. Right. So now we have a metric that all of us can think about. Something we're optimizing for. Right. We're optimizing for. Right. And so we have a metric that all of us can think about something we're optimizing. Right. We're optimizing for. Right. And so we, we, we have this kind of, um, it's a variable, right? And that variable means different things to different people, right? And different, indifferent, you know, mixes, right? But we know we're solving for that, right? And we, and if we're, if that, everybody kind of gets on board, like I agree, right? And Evan and Bell, like, no, that's not what I want.

I said, well, experience can be anything. It could be charitable. It could be heathenistic, right? For some of my friends, as many girls as they can get. For some of my friends, as many lives they can impact and change in a positive direction, right? I cast no judgment. I just say, hey, what you're solving for, this is how we get the

maximum. You say most people fear running out of hey, what you're solving for, this is how we get the maximum. You say most people fear running out of money, what you should really fear is wasting your life. Yeah. And I think that that blend between if what we want is positive life experiences and the things that we need in order to be able to get that wealth health and time. Right. Working out the trade, working out the appropriate trade between those two and where you can give it up and where you're refusing to give it up is one of the, I guess big takeaways for me and I think a lot of people that are listening will be part of this cohort of, I don't know, like guilty saviors, I would call them. Yeah, a lot of it's conditioning.

And there's some sort of pride. I remember when I was like just on the fire movement, I read the book, Your Money or Your Life. And I was like, so proud myself saving, you know? And there was this kind of this like smugness about it, like even though you got a million dollars, but yeah, I know how to say, you know, I know how to get a coupon to the train and do x, y, and z, and I did this and I'm just happy because I am so right in my, my judicious saving, you know,

and, and, you know, I got called the fucking idiot and kind of woke up, woke up to that by, by my boss at the time. But, in this book, you'll find other people like they'll sacrifice all of the variables for their health. Well, they'll sacrifice all of the variables for their money or all for their time. And I'm like, take these three variables and we're solving for a maximum fulfillment.

So we will burn money for fulfillment. We'll even burn burn money for fulfillment. We'll even burn some health for fulfillment, right? And we will burn time for fulfillment, right? And so, and depending on who you are, that's going to be, you know, that mix and what you do and what activities fulfill you. That's gonna be an individual decision,

but the formula still remains the same. What if somebody says, and I was asked this question yesterday, what do you want in life? And when they're asked that question, they find it very hard to answer. That is, that is, that is the biggest trick or the biggest requirement that's kind of not there in the book, right? We discuss it. You have to get off autopilot You have to understand what fulfills you and what you want right and a lot of people Myself included because I wrote the book to save my own life

So don't don't think that like I'm the Dalai Lama of like Net fulfillment and I got it all figured out right? I have this I wrote this book to slap my own face to get off autopilot. But a lot of times I have to get off autopilot on the set and it's like, what really do I enjoy? What really fulfills me? What would I really rather be doing now? What is just autopilot marketing inertia in my life?

And if there is inertia in my life that I identify, do I'm gonna keep some of that inertia? Cause it's okay, it's good, it's fulfilling, do I want to keep some of that inertia? Because it's okay. You know, it's good. It's fulfilling. But I need to dial it back. And what is that ratio? Right? That's the first step. What have you come to believe about that? I come to believe a lot of the things that I enjoy now. Even things that fulfill me is been marketing and culture. And culture is a form of marketing, right?

Sincs my parents wanted and they wanted for me and they enjoyed and foods They ate and foods they fed me as a kid, which then I come to love You know, I was tell people the reason why you don't eat fried crickets is because you weren't raised in China But if you were in China, you'd be like I really want to fried cricket on a stick right now. You know, just like a lot of your food choices are just cultural, right? You've been programming. And some of the programming is good. It's fulfilling. Like, this is great programming. I love the programming. And they can be wisdom in programming too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's not like, you know, these humans were just, you know, randomly picking up things, but they were making do with

the resources they had and ate the foods that were around them. And that's how their palate was formed. Or that maybe that was wise, maybe it was unwise, right? And you know, you have to sit back and think about these things with your prefrontal cortex, not be on autopilot, right? And go, this is a good thing. This is good for me. Do I really like it? It's good for the environment. Is it healthy? You know, all these other things, right? It's a lot of energy, right? And I'm just talking about food choices. Never mind, like, do I really want to go live in Norway? Or is it too cold? Why don't I like to cold? You name me like these are, these are a lot of questions, right? And so that's the most difficult thing,

but these are some things that we have to be prodding ourselves and asking ourselves, right? And so that's the most difficult thing, but these are some things that we have to be prodding ourselves and asking ourselves, right? Like, is this what I really, really, really want? You know, people wake up, you know, usually after some traumatic event, I got fired or somebody died or my dad died or or something like, I don't even know what I'm doing this. I don't even really like this, you know? Why am I here? You know, and they're they're they're they have this crisis because something snapped them off autopilot and they've they've looked at their cells and they look and they realize how they're living is not what fulfills them and it's not even how they want to be fulfilling. It's just how the autopilot of their life has taken off. Why is life energy important. It's life energy is the definition of life energy is really kind of like the time you have, right?

That was your have as a human being, as a functional human being, right? And so it's the only resource you really have. And when it's gone, it's gone. That is it, right? Your money can go and we can still use the principles in diode zero to do fulfillment, right? Because then it becomes a forwardering problem, right? Do I visit my grandmother and go, what will walk with my grandmother, or do I play cards

with the boys, right? And the life, you know, the optimization program would say, well, I can play cards with the boys for the next 10 years. Grandma's probably got two. So it's probably time to do grandma's stuff now and play cards with the boys later, right? I tell people, it's not in the book. Life is like Tetris.

Everybody, you know the game Tetris. I use the example, let's say you're in heaven and you're about to be born and God's like, here's the infinite bucket of experiences. Choose what you would like on your adventure and you're like, okay, the sex thing seems interested, 10,000, maybe 15,000 times. Okay, I want to write a bike, I want to get a job, I want to get graduated. I think I want to get married and have kids here, I want to marry and have kids, I want to be strip clubs.

That's interesting, I'll throw in a couple of those, you know, biking, I want to marry and have kids. I want to be strip clubs. That's interesting. I'll throw in a couple of those, you know, biking. Yeah, I want to get an award and you know, you just, whatever, I'm just making these things up, right? Play baseball, got goes. All right, you can have them all. The only one thing, only one thing, only one condition. You got to get the order, right? Right?

And so the people that like do the marriage thing and have kids and then put the strip club afterwards don't kind of get the high score right because it interferes with it these are dynamic decisions right or they put the hella skiing Mount Kilimanjaro at 86 is kind of in a wrong spot right like they don't get fulfillment for it and they can't do it right they waited too long they they should put that there and then this here right they didn't get fulfillment for it and they can't do it, right? They waited too long. They should put that there and then this there, right? They didn't get the order, right? And so that's true for everyone, right? Like we have a lot of the order. There are certain places in

certain time periods of our life where things are more optimal to happen. And if you don't put them in that time period, yes, maybe you can do them in another time period in your life, but it might be suboptimal and cause problems for other things around you. Or you might not be able to do them at all. Right. The last day of my wakeboarding was four years ago. The speed of the board and the collisions are too bad for my back now. I can wake surf. I picked up wake surfing. But um, wakeboarding is gone. Go and tackle playing tackle football 20 years ago. So had you have never decided to go wakeboarding four years ago, your last time of wakeboarding would have been five years ago.

Yeah, more further, further, seven years. It's a matter of fact. It was a conscious decision in the beach. My friends were like, we're going to go wakeboarding. I'm like, I'm kind of hanging out. It's nice. And I thought about it. I was like, if I don't go wakeboarding now, when is the next time I'm going to have an opportunity to go wakeboarding? And will I be able to? And I was like, this may very well be the last wakeboarding trip, last wakeboarding opportunity. And so I took it. And I went, I jumped the wake, I even landed jumping a wake. That was it. Right? I took it and I went, I jumped the wake, I even landed jumping a wake in.

Fuck yeah. That was it, right? I went on on high, right? I did it every time, every time I go out, wakesurfing, I always have to finish on a good one. Yeah, yeah. Which is rare for me because I didn't learn surfing. Okay, so I guess the other,

one of the core resources that we're going to talk about today is money. Yeah. As somebody that has spent his entire life, either investing with it or betting it against other people, what do you think most people misunderstand about money and what it's for? Yeah, I think I know I like to talk about analogies, but I think most people misunderstand that money is just a tool. People ask, does money make you happy?

And I'm like, well, do hammers and saws build houses? Like, they can build houses, but you need to know how to build a house. You use those tools to build your house. And a lot of people think the purpose is just to keep acquiring hammers and saws. They're like, look at all these hammers and solace, I have, oh, I got some nails and a nail gun and a solace on to keep, they keep acquiring all the

equipment to build a house, right? Like different shiny forms of it. I got these Swiss blades too and whatever. And they have a pile of fucking equipment to build a house. They don't build the house, right? And in this analogy, the house is happiness, right? So you need to know how to use those tools, right, in order to build a house. So there's a lot of people you share on them with money. And you think, okay, it's fulfillment, it's happiness, go be happy. And they fuck it up because they don't know how to use the tool, right? They don't respect the tool, they don't understand the power of the tool, they don't know how that this tool is for

you or fulfillment, right? This hammering, this is what you're supposed to do, is build a house with it, not collect hammers and toss. Why do you think it is? And again, this is speaking to a very particular cohort of people. There are people out there who have less disposable income than they would like, and there are people out there who have lots of disposable income and don't seem to be able to stop spending it.

This conversation isn't for either of those pairs of people, really. Why is it that we find it so hard to spend money? I think there's, you know, I think one of the best arguments I've heard is that people have this kind of hedonic value, ego value associated with the number that they don't lose attachment with. Like, it makes them feel good that they have this many zeros in the bank account, right? They, it's just like watching a show to them. And, you know, my argument is that, if you take a rat and you can train it to run in

a wheel for cheese, right? You've seen these experiments, right? Runs in a wheel for cheese. Eventually, you can just show them the wheel and never give them the cheese. They'll just run. And that's kind of what I think a lot of work and the money, right? In the beginning, when you were young and you were close to fun and you went outdoors and you played and you interacted with people, etc. The money was like to go to the event, to the college, to visit your friends,

to go to the concert, right? It was the tool you needed to have the, to get beers, whatever for your friends. Then you went to work and it's like to pay your bills and the more whatever and it's like the safety blanket. And I need it for this. And you, you keep doing that. And then eventually we just take the reward away. The abstraction of money takes you away from what it was for. Right? So it's first was just like instant, like the money goes in, it turns into a beer, you're hanging with

your friends, you're having fun. I need more of this stuff to get this activity. We're going to spring break, we're going here, we're traveling, whatever. And then you're just accumulating it for future trips. I know, I know it will do the thing, right? This abstraction, these power units, right? These tools. I guess I'm gonna build a house, right? I need more sauce, more sauce, more nails, more paneling, more, more whatever you just keep doing it and you never, you just don't build a house, right?

Like then you're like, all right, I built a small tiny house. They can maybe I'll build 10 more houses. I need, I can build 30 more houses, 40 more houses, 1000 thousands of houses, right? And you never really use it. You never really attach this abstraction to what it was for to fulfill you, to get the stuff that drives your fulfillment.

I realized this yesterday of a lunch with this friend of mine that I've just been introduced to and he had a very interesting perspective on wealth generally. And I realized that there is shit turns of advice online about how to become rich and almost no advice online about how to be rich. Yeah. That accumulating wealth is taught, but enjoying wealth is not. Yeah, yeah. And I have friends in different areas that like,

I'm gonna get, we always see which guys are the dumbest. Because at the end of the day, they found a thing in a niche and they've unlocked the key, right? Like who? It's like slaying a dragon, getting the treasure. They go through all this stuff and just treasure. Just sit around and shine and take pictures of it. Slaying the dragon, getting the treasure. They go through all this stuff and just treasure.

Sit around and shine and take pictures of it. That's it, you know, like that treasure is to go out, get the girl, build a house, build a life, you know what I mean? Not to splash around in it, screw to my duck style. And I think it's just conditioning and training. And you get to think, like like people are successful have gotten really focused and really trained on doing something very well. And sometimes they do this for 10 years, 20 years, 30 years. So all those other muscles, I'm going to call them muscles like the, the, the,

the go socialize with your neighbor muscle, the go travel and explore muscle, the, the, the, Look, I travel and explore muscle, the discovery muscle, all those atrophy. And the only muscle they've been building is, I know how to conquer this vertical, right? I've conquered podcasting, I've conquered gym shorts, right? I've conquered real estate or whatever, and they just keep going and going. And they're absolute fucking beasts. But they now have forgot about life. Guys don't know how to say hi to their neighbors and buy somebody dinner. They don't know how to pick a restaurant that it's not close to where they work.

They don't know how to meet people. That's not a work function or a conference. They don't know, you know, they to travel. Is it a business meeting? They don't even know how to think of ideas. Like, wait, this is painful for me, it hurts. It hurts. When you know when you go to gym,

you haven't worked out while you do it, and it hurts. That's what it is for people like, oh, take a month off, they're like, oh, I don't know what to do. You know? And that's a natural, I tell people, it's like, relax, relax. It's a natural, it's like,

it's relax, it's your first time back into humanity. It's your first time into being you. You let that person die 20 years ago, 10 years ago. I think that habituation and that focus takes away from the rest of their corpus, the, their corpus, right, the rest of their body, their, I'm talking about their holistic body, right? And, and so that atrophy is real, and it takes a while to build it back up, and it's painful, right? Like, when you see people on New Year's come in to the gym, they're not bullshitting. They really want to do it, right?

They got the motivation they want to do it. It's just fucking painful. Whereas for you, you go back into gym. This is my routine, buddy. Here we go, you know, I'm used to the pain, I'm used to the feeling, like the gains, etc. They don't see the gains. They just feel frustration, sweat, and pain. They're like, this shit sucks. And that's what it's like for like successful rich people. When it's like, okay, let's go be human. What? Ah, it hurts. The next principle is invest in experiences early. And one of my favorite quotes from the book, delaying gratification in the extreme means no gratification.

Yeah. You know, when they talk about investing, they talk about the power compound interest, right? And, you know, if you put the money in the bank in 10 years, you're going to have, you know, let's say double your money, $20,000, right? And okay, now you have $20,000 and that's meant for you to do something with, right? Maybe some of its pay bills, but some of its ski trips or travel or birthday presents or charity or whatever it is of the numerous things

you can do with the money. People, and that's okay if you feel like not having those experiences now is worth more experiences later in your life, right? But there's a, and that's what the interest does, right? It pays out and then you're able to have more experiences. And in theory, you'll have more fulfillment later in life, right? By saving those experienced dollars and letting them grow.

But there's also something interesting, fun, and wonderful about experiences, and I call it the memory dividend. You don't just get pleasure from when you have the experience, right? Say, you want going to go fishing with the fellas. And it's great. You want fishing, but you also have a positive experience when you recall that fishing experience. It's great hanging on my friends, we caught up, I caught the fish. There was one big one that got away, of course, there's the big one got away story.

You'll probably tell the big one got away story a thousand times. Never met a fisherman without a big one that got away story. And over those years, that is going to provide you little pieces of film it as well. And that's called the memory dividend. The same way you get interest in the bank that's paid quarterly, right? You get a memory dividend that provides you fulfillment at each time you recall and discuss that story. It compounds, right?

You might go out to dinner with someone new and they're a fisherman or they're okay hearing your fish story. You tell the story and you guys bond over the story and you know this is the fishing hole etc. and that creates a new experience that will then also have its own memory divin and it's associated with it. And so you know Warren Buffett famously says you know when it comes to investing start early start early start early to take advantage of the compounding interest of money, right? Money compounding over time. I say the same thing with experiences, start early, start early, start early to take advantage

of the compounding memory dividend. It's also a tool to help you decide where should I save this money and have two ski trips 10 years from now? Or should I take one ski trip now and have all the associated memory dividends and will that be a more fulfilling thing? Do the two strategies of market investment and memory investment, not conflict with each other, though, that we need to, that the power of compounding is such a powerful tool financially that pushing for experiences early can curtail great gains financially down the line. Is that not an issue?

Yeah, it could be. I mean, it depends on the interest rate, right? And how, how, what experience we're talking about and how powerful. Like, I wouldn't miss my like, daughter interest rate, right? And how what experience we're talking about and how powerful. Like, I wouldn't miss my like, daughter's wedding, right? For five other people's weddings down the road. That's a fantastic return, right? Five weddings to one in 10 years. You know, so like, it depends on the experience.

How, how, what, is your irreplaceable, you know, compounding. And also it depends on your age, right? Like I talk about, you know, your personal interest rate. I'm 80. Let's say I'm 80 and you're like, Hey, I can, I can put this money in a bank and it's this fantastic return and you take it out 10 years from now and you'll be able to do all the stuff and I'm just like eat a bag of bleep. You know what I mean? Like no shot, no fucking way. Uh, you know, the discount rate on my, uh, time, my own interest rate, my, the discount rate on me delaying gratification is going to infinity, right? Like the day before you die, your interest rate is infinity. There's no delaying gratification. The next step is to grave. There is no day after tomorrow. You're going

to spend all your resources, everything you got, you're going to lay it on the field right now, this day. If you, okay, well, one day before I die two days before I die three days before you die. So you can clearly see that, you know, there is this push pull between, yes, I want certain things I should delay gratification. I need to delay gratification for survival because that's ultimate, right? I don't want to die. But after that, it's where do I sprinkle the activities and where do they belong? And there are certain activities now that I would pay an innormenance of money to get certain experiences that I gave up when I was saving, that I turned down when I was saving

when I was in my 20s. Well, my friend Barb money from a loan shark. I talk about that Jason Rufo and he went back packing through Europe in his 20s. And I would be like, how many millions would I pay to have taken that trip right now to go back in time? Even even if people say, well, it's easy because you have millions right now. I would just say, there was a significant percentage of my net worth that would be outsized, that would give up to go back and not make that. And be in the pocket of a loan shark.

Be in the pocket of a loan shark, pay the exorbitant interest rate, work my butt off for whatever, so that I would have all those memory dividends and that experience and those friends and that meaning and that adventure that belonged in that time period of my life. And it's not, you know, I don't have like a deliberate answer like, yes, you should do this. People like, what should I do this? I'm like, this is for you to decide.

This is just a framework for you to think about it. Another interesting reality I suppose about Warren Buffett is that even though he's a super billionaire, very few people, if given the choice, would swap places with him. Well, why? Because he doesn't have as much time as you do to spend that money. So it's not about the money. It's not about the money.

It can't be about the money. Because if it was just about the money, you would exchange places with the super rich guy regardless of his age. We got on board in the beginning of the book. It's like life is about fulfillment. It's not about the money. The money is a tool to drive fulfillment. Right? Yes, we'll take more money. Right. We'll convert that into more fulfillment, but we're all about fulfillment. And if we're talking about Warren Buffett, he's got X years left. Doesn't look like that much. He doesn't have that many more opportunities for fulfillment. So, right, if you got put into the body of Warren Buffet, whereas you, the listener now, healthy, wise,

doing all the cold plunges and whatever you're doing, right, lifting weights, making sure you have enough muscle mass. You have many, many, many more opportunities for fulfillment. And you're going to have a high high fulfillment score. You'll take, I think a lot of many, many, many more opportunities for fulfillment. And you're going to have a high high fulfillment score. You'll take, I think a lot of people, like, I'll take zero dollars in being being warm buffet, which is, which is the truth, right? I have a friend Alex who said, I know for a fact that all of the wealth that I'll accumulate between now and in 20 years time, in 20 years time,

I would give to be right back in this place with this health and this body and all of the time that's left ahead of me, which means that right now is more important than all of the wealth I will generate over the next two decades of my life. Right. You could take that now to the memory dividend and experiences and be like, all right, well, what experiences belong right now that you can't have in 20 years? Because what he's basically saying is that in 20 years time, okay, there are certain activities, certain experiences, my attitude will change, my aptitude will change, my lung capacity will change. There are certain activities that belong right now that I need to be doing right now. So you should take that line of thinking to like, okay,

what do I do right now? These next two years, this next year, this next month. What am I on autopilot? Like, what am I missing? Let me get out my sheet. Okay. Trips, entertainment, love life, family, whatever. You can, you can categorize them any kind of way. And be like, okay, zero to three years from now. What, what belongs right now? Because I already have the concept in my head that I'm gonna be dying to be back here. So if I can't come back, I need to make sure I get everything out

of this time period that I possibly can. Diwid zero, aim to die with zero. Yeah, this is one of the axumes of the book. It just goes, it is one of the axioms of the book. It just goes kind of logical that if you're expending hours of your life that you can be doing anything, you could be backpacking, panhandling through Europe, you can be a volunteer, you can do whatever. But if you're spending hours of your life for money,

that then converts into experiences that you may have, right? Travel, charity, whatever. If you go to work and exchange hours of your life for money that you never use, you're de facto wasting your life, right? You're not going to go spend hours and hours rolling a ski ball. I mean, you might enjoy some, there's some fun and ski balls, but you're not doing it to accumulate tickets.

Like I gotta get these tickets. I gotta get these tickets and then not go get the silly prize, right? Use all your tickets. No cash value on the way out, right? Chucky cheese tokens I like to use, but not that many Chucky. Cheese is in the world. So these, you know, a rational person would be like, okay,

the hour is in my life that I exchange, that I give up, the only thing that I have in exchange for money, I will use all that resource so that I'd not waste my life. Right? It's just suboptimal. I had not wasted my life. Right? It's just suboptimal. Consumption smoothing is a term that I'd never heard of before. And it seems like something that should be taught to 10-year-olds to me for the people that aren't familiar with it, what's consumption smoothing?

Well, it's, you know, there is the current you. For a lot of people, there's a current poor you, young you, right? That you're young and you're poor and you're future-richer you, right? You're going to make more money, you're going to get successful, you're going to have a promotion, you're going to et cetera. And you know, when I was younger, I kind of had it backwards for some time. And then I went crazy even with the other way. But I was like making no money, driving a limo at night and

Saving money, just saving like I have a thousand dollars. I have X Y and Z and I had this miracle Savings that I had saved up and what I was really doing was I was borrowing from my future I was borrowing from my poor self to give to my future richer self so Bill Perkins now is looking at Bill Perkins 21 and be like, you shf***** idiot. I can care about $1,000. See, I don't even recognize it. You know what I mean?

Somebody, you know, it means nothing. Like, you should have went out on that date, or you should have went out on that trip, or you should have went to Florida or you know backpacking for at least a week or whatever. You should have been having an adventure and I would have those memories and I'd be telling interesting stories on this podcast

except now I'm an uninteresting guy telling boring stories because you, you don't feel perkis. I put out $1,000. Yeah, I tried to save $1,000. Fucking pissed at that guy. I'm so pissed. Consumption smoothing allows you to borrow from your richer self

to finance your poorer self and vice versa. How should someone tactically get into the mode of applying consumption smoothing? I always advise, you know, you're getting into financial planning, right? And you should have financial plan, or at least have a spreadsheet, or at least go through it, right? But you're going to think about, like, where is the area you're going to consume the most, and have the most experiences in your life and where do they fit? One of the things people do is they oversight for retirement.

They're like, I'm going to need all this money for retirement. I'm sure everybody's like, well, this exception, they'll put out the exception case, but by and large, the data is just overwhelming. Old people don't spend money. Their net worth just keeps growing. They just don't even adjusting for healthcare costs. I know people, I don't care. I mean, the healthcare and the Audi, right? First of all, there's insurance products, etc. But we even went out insurance products and all that. Their net worth just keeps growing. And I get asked, why does it happen? I was like, because it can't spend the money. They can not. Their aptitude has changed. They don't like doing the same things.

Their bodies have changed. They have the inability to do the thing. And it's not even if they can, it's not enjoyable. Like their joints hurt. Their back hurts. Yeah, renting a Ferrari to go to skydiving when you're 45 versus renting a Ferrari to go to skydiving when you're 45 versus renting a Ferrari to go to skydiving when you're 75 to very different experiences. Yeah, even things that you like to do, like I mentioned Greg Wiley in the book, you know, a friend of mine that likes to go skiing. And you know, he used to ski, go skiing, and you'd have seven runs, or eight runs a day. That was two or three. You start to buy them, right?

Doesn't mean that he loves skiing. He's just not getting as much use out of ski trip. So that turns into less passes on the mountain. So he'll spend less money skiing. So a lot of people think their lives when their retire is going to look like a carnival commercial, right? It just looks like it's freaking chaos, right? Like they're going down slides or eating, there's photos are running around, they're traveling, whatever. And a lot of it's like sitting around talking with your friends and visiting grandparents and you know, your great children, grandchildren in this case. All very inexpensive. Yeah, inexpensive low dollar amounts. Like, I don't want to be bothered. I'm going to sit and watch reruns of jeopardy, like leaning alone

type of things, right? And the other super interesting thing that I found when looking or thinking about consumption smoothing is most people's earning capacity is going to steadily increase and sometimes rapidly increase over the next two, three, four decades of their life. Everybody that's listening to this will probably be earning way more money in 10 years time than they are right now will probably be earning way more money in 10 years' time than they are right now. And way more money in 20 years' time than they are right now. You probably have a lot of hustle girls and hustle girls out there like just grinding it out, making just going to be printing presses for their whole life. But they're a capacity to spend that money and even their aptitude or willingness to go and consume that money is going to go down the

overtime. It's so bizarre. I really think that the consumption-smoothing element of this, realizing that your earning potential is going to increase, and that you can, before we started about the fact that your identity lags reality by one to two years. Right. I think that you're spending habits lag your current net worth by maybe even longer than that. And you're spending frugally because that feels like the good thing to do because maybe you came from a working class background because generally having a safety net makes you feel good.

So you spend frugally based on where you're earning and on top of that where you see yourself as earning is lagging behind. And then on top of all of that, if you apply consumption smoothing, you should actually be projecting out ahead where your spending practices are at to think, okay, well, let's say that in five years' time, I'm going to be earning 30% more per year, let's say. Well, I mean, if I run that forward, I've actually got way more disposable income, and yet there are all of these different layers that we have that protect us from getting anywhere close to enjoying the money that we earn. If you go out and talk to financial planners, wealth managers, etc.,

and you look at the data, people wait, wait, wait overestimate how much they're going to be spending in retirement. What they're going to be doing. It's just amazing. I think it's fear-based. A lot of it's fear-based, like China. Uncertainty. Yeah, a lot of uncertainty. but the data is just overwhelming. They can't spend it. What about the people that say that they love working? It's okay to work. I always say like keep working. Just make sure you, you, you, don't waste your life and you utilize the fruits of your labor, right? That balance.

And, and, you know, I always get the heroin addict argument. I don't have a problem with heroin. You got a problem with my heroin. You didn't mean like, I love work. You know, I'm just like, okay, listen, out of the almost near infinite things you can be doing with your time here on the planet. Activities, choices, experiences. You think you happen to stand just serendipitously hit

number one at the right ratio. So you hit the right thing at the right frequency. It's, I just don't believe it. What do you think about the sort of sigma grind mindset trend that was seeing at the moment? So it's got a number of different iterations. But the one that I'm thinking about is this kind of monk mode, guys in their 20s, get your head down, reject family life, reject distractions, any kind of hedonism really, broadly a lot of adventures as well, accumulate wealth as much as you can. Yeah, I know exactly. It sounds like a lot of adventures as well, accumulate wealth as much as you can.

I know exactly. It sounds like a version of fire. I like fire because the fire is financial independence for tire early, for people who don't know that. That's a whole reject materialism, you know, get in touch with enough, what's enough for you. Seve, Seve as much as you can, and then retire, and live life. And I'm like, you know, my biggest problem with that is it's fucking go to jail for money. That this monk is another version of go to jail for fucking money. Right. And so for me, there are people out there who like you can pay them five million dollars to do a 10-year stint in

Singsing. I'm not one of them. But Singsing. It's a prison. Rawway State Prison whatever, you know, Rikers is not you know open, but like I'm not I'm not you know The guys who go to prison for 10 years wrongly accused or 15 years or 20 years when they come out They'll not love thank God. I got wrongly accused because now I got $7 million. That's never their story, right? They're still crying and tears and happy they're freedom. It helps, yes, but they would gladly give you that money back and get that time back. And so, you know, this reject friends, reject family, reject all hedonism, reject that, and then there's

some promise land later in the future, some version of let's go to jail for a certain amount of time, and then we're going to get a reward. And yes, I believe in delayed gratification, and yes, I do believe in some work, but I think those schemes are way out of balance. Way out of whack. The problem that we have is we know that delayed gratification is a useful skill for people to have, you know, to be able to put off eating the cookie, succumbing to the distraction in order to be able to focus on the thing that you're doing now, it feels to me, maybe like delayed

gratification in the micro is useful and delayed gratification in the macro gets significantly less useful. Yeah, I think like you have to look at your life as a complete system from cradle to grave and then you break it down, right? Like the 20 year old single you is going to die, and you'll get married in whatever. The father, young children, the I was actually growing and getting stronger

and now I'm in decline. That there's all different phases of your life, your first job you, your son, so your first business, et cetera. And those periods, they die. They had the, they, they go away. Single you go away. And there are things that single you are to do and only meant for single you.

Right? And so, yes, the late gratification is great, but if you look at the totality of the system, if you delay things that belong in single you to later, it means you're never going to have them. And so that's okay if you've decided and you're consciously saying to yourself, I'm never going to experience this in my life. This is not going to be part of my story, right? I don't want these things. I don't want that adventure.

I don't want that ride. But what I find is a lot of people just, I dot these kind of like programs or algorithms, gone autopilot without thinking of the total system of their life, right? And what belongs where? So another example might be you go to work the season abroad somewhere, people in the UK often go to Ibiza or New York or somewhere like that,

and they go and work as a club rep or whatever else, drug dealer. And it would be like deciding that you were going to go out there and spend all of your time outside of whatever job it was that you were doing in the apartment that you were staying in. Yeah. Because this is how I'm going to optimize this particular period. It means that I get to save more my sleep's going to be better. So, you know, the wealth, the health. In the time. Yeah. And you go, well, I mean, why have you bothered to go and work abroad? If that's the plan that you're going to follow, why even bother going and working abroad at all?

Because you could earn this money some other way. Correct. And what you're saying to yourself is during this period, I probably don't intend on coming back to a beether and doing another summer in a beether, all of my memories will be of me going to work coming back to the apartment, going to work coming back to the apartment. And I can't go back and undo that. And what's most likely is that I'm not going to be here in a beether in the future, so I can't redo it. So this is my experience. So if it is to be, it is in this time period and this is gonna be your experience.

And so, you know, you have to think of the total system, people are getting on autopilot and myopic about the totality of life and what experiences belong in each season of their life. And so, going back to earlier when we said, life is like Tetris, you gotta get the order right, right? You don't wanna be 40, 50 and go fuck. Fuck that up.

I want an idiot, like I missed out. Better go back to a B-Thru and try and do the season. Yeah, no, no, you're married, you've got four kids, and you're principles and your obligations, and everything prevent you from, you know, raving with glow sticks and abiza, right? And doing whatever you do late at night, right? Right?

And, and, and you, you know, your obligations, your character, everything has changed. And you knew it was gonna change, because this is who it aspired to be. And so, had you been off autopilot and thought about it but like, you know what, tonight's the night, right? And future you is going, yes buddy, tonight's the night. You know, future you's tonight's the night, trust me.

You know, because it ain't happening now, you know, it's all diapers and whatever. It's joy, not a lot of fun, but a lot of joy, you know, with the kids. You know, you have the fun. That's the fun bucket. This is the joy bucket, you know. I wonder how many people struggle and have serious regret as they get later in life from not optimizing their adventure in their fun earlier in life. Um, I, I, I, you know, I don't, I don't have the data to, to show it, but I have a lot of anecdotes that I, I think that is the case. I think a lot of people go bananas, right?

Like a lot of people didn't do certain things at a certain time. And then, and then they're trying to cram it into a period that doesn't really work and it creates conflict, right? Either internally or even externally with partner spouse friends work, etc. Right? And they're out of balance, right? The total system of your life, the total timeline of your life is out of balance. So they have like FOMO of a period, they can't get back and you're trying to recreate something in a time bucket, it doesn't work, right? And so I think we see a lot of that. I don't have like a whole chart data, social, you know, social experiment, but I see it

a lot. I see it a lot. I see it a lot. Well, one of the saddest things is to see somebody who never grows up, right, that continues to try and live a season of their life that's kind of gone. Right. And there's something that feels kind of a and like, destitute and sad about that, that look, there are all of these other things waiting for you out there.

There are all of these other experiences. And yet, the peak of your life is getting a bag in with the boys on a weekend and, you know, getting it, we're fired outside of a cabab shop at three in the morning. Yeah, yeah. Is it not time to grow up yet? But there is also a challenge to the people

who never go through whatever period of whatever type of fun it is that they want, because that also researches and comes back around in later life. I would think it would be almost certain. Yeah, I tell people like, listen, you have now and going forward. And so what's done is done.

You have your memories, your experiences, your mistakes, your scars, and you have your resources. Let's optimize what do you want in these next? Let's break it down next three years, next three to five years. What what experiences belong here? What choices? What trips? What I love you.

What what what charitable deeds? Let's just go down whatever list, what what health goals, what belongs here, right? How does that fit into the next period? Let's look at the next period, let's look at the next period, and then once we get them all lined out, right? We're like, this one belongs here and this one belongs here, and now we can optimize, and we have a little bit more, we have a more fulfilling life on a go-forward basis.

But wait, we can't optimize the past, right? So let's accept it, enjoy it. Let's go optimal right now. Let's get pros, let's get off autopilot. And I'm really talking to myself. You know what I mean? Because that's me. Like, what do you really want?

What does the summer look like? Okay, you really want to spend time with your kids, which tricks, what methods you're going to employ to like hang out with them, but you're going to employ to hang out with them, but you're not feeling annoying to them. You've got one summer left, you've got one this. How many time are you going to have good talk with them? How can you do it before they're off in the wild doing their own thing?

I guess, let's go time. How are we going to do this? What resources are you going to bring to bear to this problem? So once you get to the point, you read the book, you apply the principles, and you get there. It's like top level E equals I'm C squared or whatever. Now you're like application layer. I want to apply it to my life.

So then you bring in other things like, OK, these experiences I want in my life, anything worth having is worth working for. What resources do I bring to bear? And so I treat each period like this is it, this period dies. So this is it, whatever is unique to this period do not fuck it up.

Do you have, your next principle is use all available planning tools. Yeah. What have you accumulated after having written this book, after having created a philosophy when it comes to trying to get tactical and create frameworks with this? What have you started to rely on? Do you have an assistant? Do you have somebody that helps you to do this and life manager? Oh my gosh, this is going to be probably the most obnoxious part of the interview or most, I don't know, ostentatious. So I have assistants. I have a boutique travel firm.

I have, you know, I have meetings about ideation, about things to do because there's the things I want to do and these are the things that I've been culturally trained to do or people I interact with, right, that I'm gonna do that thing, right? But it still kind of like comes within this bubble of my universe. And I need some random stuff that I would normally not do to expand my life, to not have just a cookie cutter life, because one of the things I don't wanna have is a cookie cutter life.

Okay, that's a fulfilling to me, not to have a cookie cutter life. And so there's a lot of, there's assistance to remove the minutiae of my life, so that I can do the things I wanna do, but they're also there to cure it, experiences for me. And then there's this boutique travel,

is one of the things that fulfill me. I think it's one of the things you spend money on that make you richer, right? So it's ideation, meetings, constant planning about when you can do this, who can come along, what's this next trip, when you're going to do the Japan train thing, you know, I learned I love training at a random like, I thought I would hate it. I was like, I don't want to go sit on a train with a bunch of old people on an ordinary and express, you got to wear suit, I hate wearing suits when you go into the

bar car. I was just like, this is going to be a suit, I hate wearing suits when you go into the bar car. I was just like, this is gonna be the worst trip of my life, but you know what, I'm gonna do it just because. So, Orient Express, people do it, and I can't just do the things that I normally do. I'm just cooking up. Who's this suggestion of one of your ideations? Yeah, yeah, ideations, this is it.

So, I go on this thing. I get to, to extra, I bring my friend Cooper, I'm like, let's go on this thing. I get to, to extra, I bring my friend Cooper. I'm like, let's go on this train. And he's like, I can only come for the small portion of it. Right? I got it, I fucking loved it. I love it, I love it. I hate to admit it, I loved it.

It was so peaceful. There were views you can see that you can't see by car because there's no road. You can't fly low and see it. There's towns, it was beautiful, it was wonderful. You can reach, you can see that you can't see by car because there's no road. You can't fly low and see it. There's towns, it was beautiful, it was wonderful, you can reach, you can relax. I met all kinds of interesting people in the car. I didn't know there was a training society,

there's trains all over, they go through all kinds of places. I was just like, I keep been adopted. I didn't know. I absolutely loved it. And I was like, this is something I can do till 90. I can do this for the rest of my life. And I was all excited when I first got off

where we're like, we're gonna take the train up to the Machu Picchu and there's this other one that goes through the desert and you can go cross Russia, I can't go cross Russia now. But, you know, in the Japan train and we were actually planning a trip and we're like, okay, we're gonna do this summer, we're gonna do this. And we thought about it, we like, wait a minute,

wait a minute. You can ride a train at 86, but can you go walk around the city streets and climb the steps of Italy at 86 and get around? Maybe, maybe not. So let's push training, not that we're gonna do none of it, right? But we're gonna do less of that now and more of that later, right? That's kind of die with zero thinking, right?

That's me. Hey, don't go on autopilot just because you have dopamine hit going on a later, right? That's kind of die with zero thinking, right? That's me. Hey, don't go on autopilot, just because you have dopamine hit going on a train, right? It's great, but let's be thoughtful about each time period. Yeah, so autopilot reads its head even. And all the time. All the time.

All the time. All the time. It's great. autopilot's great. I do so many things driving. You found something that you love. Yeah, yeah, go do it. Rinse, repeat. Exactly.

You just keep going, you know, and it relieves the strain on your prefrontal cortex. But if you want to thrive and you want to optimize, you've got to use a prefrontal cortex a lot. Where you've got to hire people. I was going to say, I imagine that the outsourcing makes that an awful lot easier. Yeah, yeah.

So that's the dickish thing. Like I have, like I ship a lot of money into other people to help optimize life and think about these things and arrange and what's going to go on and think about, okay, you've got the summer and what we do and there's tons of planning that they do. None of which you do.

Do you know Rob Deidick, guy that founded DC Shoes. No, I do not. Very rich, very cool, interesting guy. He tracks every second of his life, who's on the show a couple of weeks ago. Tracks every second of his life, and he has an entire life design team that basically does the same thing. Brian Johnson, the guy that the longevity dude that's

trying to lift to 120, you know, he sold his a ton of companies for God knows how much money. And he now has a full-time team of cutting-edge longevity researchers that basically just give him every single supplement and take the biomarkers and do the things that he needs to do. And my point being that you can think that you're being as obnoxious as you want. But there are levels, everyone's got their own obnoxious version of whatever it is. You're optimizing for life design, Rob's optimizing for tracking his time, Brian's optimizing for his longevity, whatever it is.

It's all for film, right? It's like, you know, it's all for film. It's like, what is going to be the most fulfilling ride I can possibly have? When it comes to dying with zero, you know, wealth, understood time, understood health, presumably given that health is one of the three core components of what we're talking about today, spending money on things that improve your health and fitness should be a place to lock. It's a no-brainer. There's simple things that particularly people that have money, lots of disposable income,

you know, talk to them like having a chef. It's like it's not only is it like convenient and it tastes good like you have this chef in your house, right? Whip up anything you want, but they talk to the trainer, they get the macros right, the protein band, whatever, and it's just auto done for you, right? So it falls into the health bucket, right? It's easier for me not to become a fat slob because I don't think about food. It's just there. You know, when I came down here, they gave me a bag, He's like, here's your lunch, and here's your snack.

Here's your vegetarian protein shake and blah, blah, blah, whatever. And I asked people, like, well, what are you eating? I'm like, I don't know, chef, what am I eating? He ate 40, 40, 20. You know what I mean? That's what you're on right now. How many calories is this? How many calories, right?

And I'm just dialed, right? So that's like, that's going to help me not have like a shitier life or less experience points to an activity down life. And then you have your trainers and etc. And then your checkups and your diagnostics and you can keep going on with the health. Um, I've looked at some of these guys and I'm like, yeah, but you're, you know, I was doing, I did this hyperbaric chamber thing because it was like, oh, it can lengthen your telomeres and has this health benefit. And I'm like, look, if all I'm, if I can't die and it's quackery, it's okay. Right.

It's like, if there's asymmetric upside. And so I was going to redo this Israeli study of going into this hyperbaric chamber, right? Like, like all these myormarkers are better after doing it, right? But you have to go into hyperbarrac chamber, like, I don't know, consistently for like the months. And this place was like a 45 minute drive away takes like X time to dive to dive down to depth to bring you to pressure. And then you're there for an hour, and then you gotta come out, right?

And then I gotta get home. And I did the math and I was like, it's not worth it. It's like five hours a day or something. Yeah, it was like four or five hours of like non-productive time things I could be doing other thing in order to get like maybe a year or two or three days. I'm just disoena. Yeah, exactly.

Exactly, that's not more for filming. That's less net fulfillment points, right? I'd rather just like, at a very healthy point in my life, right? Like so it was like I'd rather die sooner, right? Okay, so if die with zero, how do you work out when you get to die? So I look at actual oil tables. There's even fans your tasks that look at like your your methylation of your of your of your of your cells,

telomeres, etc. but you can get a pretty accurate estimate. And you can continually update this, right? It's like if you're 86, you know, like, oh, it said I was going to die at 86 for a very second. I'm stuck dead, you know? No, you're like, that that continually gets updated, right? So that that kind of, you know, it's not like a static that kind of, you know, it's not like a static, this whole methodology, this whole thought process, right? This whole way of thinking is a continually updating model, right? We're constantly, okay, it wins my death date. I'm alive today that basically pushes you further in the future, et cetera, in just

the probabilities is how much money I have. I just discovered I like training. That gets dumped into the model, gets run around, and it's proper time bucket and when I should be doing training and activities, et cetera. So this is just a way of thinking about your life and running this routine constantly. But it is good to have an estimate of when you're going to die. Right? It's good to have an estimate of what are they're going to be the 10 last years of your life, right? And what do those 10 years look like? How in shape are you? How much have you been doing things that like Peter Othie says, have you wrapped enough muscle around yourself, which are VO2, right? Have you been thinking about

these things? Are you able to walk and pick up a small child in your last 10 years? Yes, no. That's gonna change a lot of things where you're gonna live. Because you wanna hang out with your grandchildren, right? It's pain in the ass. Like every parent knows this

and then they all do the same thing. Oh, it's such a pain in the ass to go visit grandma. We gotta go all the way across town or we gotta go another another state and go know whatever blah, blah, blah, blah. And my mom moved to Virginia, right? And we're in Texas and the sister is in New Jersey and whatever. And she complains about like how we don't see her and come to her, right?

And it's hard on her to travel, right? Like to drive and it was like, this is a calculation. You know, maybe staying in Jersey City, you know, obviously she everybody's got to choose how they live and die and she chose that path, but it comes connected with it's a dynamic decision that affects other things in your life. And so, you know, your health in your last decade of your life you know, your health in your last decade of your life is going to determine whether or not you're pretty much cool getting on a plane and traveling by yourself to go visit your grandkids

and you spoil them and ruin your kids, right? Like, fuck dad, why'd you give them all a candy? You sh- I'm damn it. You know, like when you get your kids back, right? For being shit, right? Or not, like it's a pain in the ass, and I need help and a guardian, whatever.

So I have to wait for them to come to me and they have busy lives in their own lives, right? So all these things matter. They matter a lot. And I think as humans, I always say, we don't net present value well. We're not good with future value and net present value. We're very good with the immediate like,

oh, tiger run or bear run or salty thing or sweet thing. Eat, you know, that type of thing. Not really good, like, if I eat this sweet thing every day, it's an extra 250, 300 calories. So in years, that's two years, 40 extra pounds away. You know what I mean? Like we don't do that, right? We just do the thing, right? And we don't think, um, yeah, if I'm out of shape and I can't walk and I can't pick up a small child, and based on where I am right now, that's very likely going to happen. It's absolutely a certainty for a lot of people. Um, therefore I need to live

close to my grandkids. If I want to see them, you know, that type of thing. Therefore, I need to live close to my grandkids if I wanna see them, you know, that type of thing. So I've got a plan on retiring here, them, or seeing them less, or whatever. What is some of the other planning tools that people should be aware of? Well, actual tables, when you're gonna die, any kind of calendering, I like,

I like, you know, on my phone, I have my account down clock when I'm gonna die, right? It's just kinda this like- Totally not morbid at all. No, it's, it's been known when you know the vacation is gonna end, you take the trip more seriously. Like if you woke up in Paris, you're like, this is great, like I'm in Paris.

And you didn't know it was gonna end in a week. You'd be like, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna sleep in today, whatever, blah, blah, blah, blah. If you're gonna be on a week, you're running around like a mad man, soaking it up as much as you can. They're just to interject there.

This is why short trips, like aggressively short trips, 36 hours, 48 hours in a particular location. I think it's an undervalued way to do travel. I managed to do, I think it was like eight different things in 24 hours in Miami. It was 24 hours from the plane landing to the plane taking off. I did so much stuff, met up with tons of different people. I played pickleball, I met the head of legal for Yeezy at some backyard barbecue. I gave a talk at a conference I did like this and this and this thing and it was I wasn't being driven around

I didn't have like a fancy team that was helping it was ubers uber and Very very aggressive Mexican lady who beat and turn a traffic to get me back in time for the plane I probably shouldn't have been able to fit number eight in but my point being When like Parkinson's law just fist fucks everything else, right? Work expands to fill the time given for it. And your lack of daisiness about how her age you're going to be to get things done. We'll also fill the expand to fill the time that time that you believe that you've got for it. Yeah, so the fact that you knew you only had 24 hours drove that activity, I wonder if I stretched

it out, would you even done it? I would have probably done it. You would know more things in more time. Yeah, you know, something, something, something, something, something, soaking up the atmosphere, but I'm just saying like with life, I'm trying to create a sense of urgency, right? And then there's other things things like daughter's graduation, she's gone. That's it. I'm like, she's out of the house. Like, oh my gosh, like we constantly talk. Like this might be the last summer, because next summer she might want to go with friends or something like that. We're constantly. That's something that's really interesting.

And I've heard you talk about it and other parents as well say similar things. Sam Harris talks about why this might be the last time that you have a bounce your daughter on your knee. He always, and it was a really profound story. How did you, when your kids were growing up, how did you really sort of sink into that sense of urgency During a time when your sleepless and it's difficult to study I'm gonna be honest like I fucked it up many times. I messed it up many times I did not have the sense of urgency. I did not you think they're gonna be these little sweet things that are gonna Want to hang around you and you're gonna be God to them forever and it's not true and there you know There's a couple more stories I wish I read, you know, there's a couple

more times I just hung out not done the business thing or the travel thing or whatever, the other thing, right? And I got the order wrong. So I'm hyper conscious of like, let's get the order right now. What's the order that you should, you know, for the parents of fledgling parents that are listening, what's the period that you need to prioritize with your kids? I think you need to really prioritize the period that they

want to be with you. And that's usually 12 sub 12. Because at 14, you're on cool. At 13, you're on cool. You know, it starts every parent knows it starts like, you know, it starts drifting and maybe a little bit earlier, whatever, but like through 10, it's like, where you wanna go, they wanna go,

where you wanna be, this is what we're gonna do, they're more amenable, you know, et cetera. And then it's like, nah. One morning you wake up and you're the lamest person in the world. You don't know anything, Dad. One morning you wake up and you're the lamest person in the world. You don't know anything, Dad. You don't know anything. You may have money, but you don't know nothing, Dad.

That's dumb. You're so strange. I am strange. It's so absurd, but it's so annoying. You're so annoying. It's just like, it's going to happen, right? And you just enjoy it. You just deal with it.

You roll with it, right? But you're still like, it's just like, it's going to happen, right? And you just enjoy it. You just deal with it. You roll with it, right? But you're still like, you go from like, wow, how do I get time to myself, right? With little kids, right? Babies, et cetera, like I have no time in parents like I need rest or we don't have sex anymore or whatever it is to, you're banging to spend time with your kids.

Like you, it's literally like being, like I don't know if you've ever been in a social Situation where you wanted to hang out with the group, but they don't want you that's that's your kids You're like for but for a lot of parents. Maybe some parents are God bless them You know what's your secrets? But like for a lot of it's like oh man. I can't hang out with the cool kids I can't whatever so you you cool kids, I can't, whatever. So you, you know, my, my hack around that was late after my daughter was like, oh, I need to be the Uber driver. Like I get to talk to them when I'm driving in a car.

They need me to drive them to their friends house or to go to the thing. Wow. So that's my, that's my hack, right? I'm like majority of the time that I'm going to spend with them. Actually, the most time I'm going to spend them with them is when I'm driving around Houston. In Houston, it's like one of those seas where you get to drive frickin' everywhere, right?

So that's my hack, like okay, I eventually went from, fighting about who's driving the kids to, I will wake up, I will fly in from another city to drive them, right? Like I will. It means that you get to spend time with them. Exactly. Because I try and think for it and like, what is doing my best mean now?

What is doing my best in this area? Like when I'm not on autopilot and my prefrontal cortex is working and I'm on this subject, what does that mean? And then I came up with it like driving as one of them. It's a small solution man. Yeah, and you know, there's others, but that's my own personal bullshit that people probably don't want to hear.

So, next principle is don't live life on autopilot. Yeah, something that you've mentioned in a lot today. What do you think is the typical approach that people on autopilot use to plan their life? Culture. Culture? Dreams of dead people? What is that? What culture is, right? Dreams of dead people, people before you, around you, right?

Other people's dreams. This is what you should do. This is how you should get married. The movies say you should fall in love this way. This is how you have X, Y and Z. You find it in all kinds of ways, right? Like I find people like our friends and I saw somebody recently posted on internet like,

oh, I'm having a meeting somebody, like finding a significant other. And I'm one of those like, if it's worth having, it's worth working for, right? So what resources can we bring to bear? And so I'm like, all right, how much time are you spending on this? How many people you're meeting? Like, let's get the spreadsheets out, what network, what persons, who's your personal network,

who are your friends, how many dates are you going on, whatever? What are your criteria and have you set out your criteria? Like, the whole thing, and they're just kind of, I just hope and I bump into an elevator like the movie I saw and then I fall and I say the right movie line and we fall up, you know, whatever, some stupid shit like that. And it's not like they're actually thinking that, but it's buried in their subconscious, right? And they're on autopilot, they're on cultural autopilot,

like thinking like, oh, this is how it's going to be. And so that's why I think a lot of people, um, you know, propinquity is who they marry. Somebody at work, something on the way to work, etc. Where I'm just like, wow, we live in a world where you can meet anybody from anywhere and travel. Your range is, you know, there's all these tools you can have to meet people and all these apps and services, etc. And you have a much bigger filter and you can be more deliberate and you can be much more vulnerable and you can get out there.

And, you know, so I think people are on autopilot in some of the most important areas in their lives. What like, what, when is dating? Who are you gonna marry? I can't think of more important to say. When they're gonna have kids. Right. And you may always get up right, you know?

Not really planning it. And it's not like it's like unplanned pregnancy, like you can see a doctor type of thing, but just like, is this the best year? Is this the best year, right? Just kind of come what may. Does this fit into like your doctorate dissertation or whatever, you know, things like that, right? Where they're going to work. Well, I grew up here in Jersey City and there's

a newspaper ad and these people are hiring and these people are hiring. This is kind of where it's to work. It's like, no, maybe I should work here. Maybe I should move to California. A lot of that's fear based, right? Like a lot of people, like I think one of the most restrictive things people do themselves out of fear and autopilot is not move within the country. Especially in America. You guys are a continent in a country. Yeah, it's crazy. We have a work permit. You know the language. You have the currency. Your bank account works. And like, there'll be the most amazing job and opportunity and whatever, and they won't move because somebody lives here, and I've had this conversation with someone,

I was like, well, how many times you actually see this relative? So I'm gonna, I'm gonna know in days. Often, you quantify, you know what I mean? Quantify, I was like, how much does the plane take it? How much more salary? You know what I mean?

Like, when you actually spend more quality time with them, if it wasn't just like an hour drive or whatever, but you can't be more. But they prefer to see you in California than fucking New Jersey. Exactly, and you can bring them out there and which could you, could you have, could you put that time in on a trip

and take them other places? Can you rearrange the social thing? So there's a lot of just, this is the way it is. And I'm gonna live here. I don't feel comfortable without really thinking it through. So family work, location of where people live. Yeah, also just even, just even ideas of like, who says I love you first, etc.

Like the everything is just as cultural programming, but food you eat with you like. Intentionality and the lack thereof has been the most common trend that I've seen with people who do and do not have high agency, who do and do not make appropriate changes in their life, that do and do not seem to live a life that's more fulfilling or less fulfilling. Now remember, so I ran nightclubs for a very long time in the UK, and I'm in this city, which has got about a million people in, so it's not that much smaller than Austin, and you know, success in a lot of the ways, I think that the world would tell it, going as 20s, that he's supposed to have success

with the, you know, status and money and women and whatnot. But I used to go outside in the house, in my first house that I bought, there was a backyard and I would open the door before I went to bed and I'd do this every night, for months and months and months. And I'd look up at the stars. And I remember thinking,

I wish I could be anywhere else but here. And I was like fuck like how have I got myself to the stage where I love this life and what I've built in terms of a business. But I know that it's not right and yet I was so terrified of making some sort of a change because look at why I would be giving up. What if I fall flat in my face? What if I look stupid? What if I have to come back with my tail between my legs? That probably the latter part I say is what stops most people. It's not really what they're giving up on the money or whatever that they can rebuild it or it's not, you know, they can go figure it out, right? It's the judgment of their peers or themselves. One of the peers is out, right? It's the judgment of their peers or themselves. One of the peers is themselves, right?

You're going to be like, you fucking idiot, you gave up the thing and it didn't work out, right? But a lot of it is the judgment of your peers, your friends, like, et cetera. And so a lot of people don't take the chance, don't take the risk. And I'm a maximum risk. Take as much risk as you possibly can stand

and then add a little bit more, you know, especially when you're young. Plan in terms of seasons, we've spoken about this before, the Tetris, the whole idea is like, you know, we all think that we have, we're all going to die, but we also have all these mini deaths, right? These seasons of our lives, like the single you, the parent of a young child, the first job, the unemployed you, the first job you, the first business you, right? The empty nester you, right? The retiree you, right? There's all these seasons in your life. And so when you think about your life in seasons,

seasons in your life. And so when you think about your life in seasons, if how they fit together and how we optimize each period, then you're going to have a much more overall better optimization for your entire life, right? You're not going to be like holy shit. The young kid season, I fucking missed out on 50 more stories I should have read, right? And I don't have that.

I don't have that bond. And it's not like I'm going be able to pop my 13 year old, or 16 year old for my knee. Let me tell you, and poo said, you know what I mean? It's just not happening, right? Like it's over, you don't get that back. And the young business, the young you that has a chance to start a business, right?

You don't have all these other obligations that maybe stop you from taking those risks because it's a pooled risk now like you know, I You know, I took flying lessons. You just go flying. I used to write a motorcycle and it's you know my College girlfriend's mother was a nurse. You're like you're idiot. You're writing a kidney donor machine That's what we call them, but at that age, I could take that risk. Right. It's only reckless for you.

It's only reckless for me. Right. And then, you know, a second flying lessons and general aviation is about a lot of people don't realize this before you get to professional, there's just general aviation. And those stats are just about a motorcycle. Oh, fuck. I've got I'm literally in talks to get my first set of flying lessons

and I put the shit so you have to clear, right? It's not a problem at all except on Cessna 172Rs, a lot of times the wheels shake in the front, right? If you if somebody landed it before if you touched the landing, right, they give a little shake and a shimmy. So it's squawked. It's not that big of a deal, but it can be an issue. So I landed and one of the touching goes doing the flaps up whatever full power. But the plane is shimming like crazy. And I'm like, you know, trying to get it done. And I'm moving down the runway at the same time. So I have to make a decision. Do I bail at sea? Okay. Or do I try and gun it and clear this telephone war? And like some neuron fired out, bail.

So I ran, bail, rip it, you know, like just kinda like, and I called him the instructor and I was like, yeah, I decided to bail. She was like, yeah, you made the right decision and I was just like, fuck, I was a second away from making a wrong decision. Like there is a very, very close door on like, Bilgo, I can fucking do this.

You know what I mean? Like, and then next'll be, you know, get decapitated by a telephone. Well, what happened is it clipped the wire and the plane crashes and these things are like, you know, aluminum foil, you see, engine in your chest and your dad, right? Like you're just, these are not Tesla's or, you know,

there's no crash test dummies and incest on what 72 are as it crashes, you're gone, right? And so in that matter, you know, you're cartwheel and whatever. So I thought about that. And when I remember when pregnant with sky, I was like, that's it. I used to read the accident reports and I was like, oh, you know, it's always pilot error. Pilot error, pilot error, parallel, even when it's the plane, it's like pilot error, right? And I thought, I used to think, oh, I would never do that and then I thought about it

I'm like, no, I am the guy who would do that. Who am I kidding? I am that guy And and I was like, I don't have the right to take the risk and that was it That was the end of my learning how to fly in Korea over before it began I mean if I could have gotten to IFR and a professional, you professional, then it would have been like, you know, jet travel, whatever. Oh, so what you're saying is get your pilots license early. I think get to the point where you're a professional. Yeah, but if you're just like tooling around

and once I'm a tour and you're a private pilot doing the G8, that's motorcycle riders. And the stats are very similar to motorcycles. It's like, well, I hope that my mom is not listening to this one because I'm sorry, sorry, and the stats are very similar to motorcycles. I like psych. Well, I hope that my mom is not listening to this one because I'm sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry mom, sorry mom, that's okay. No when to stop. No when to stop.

I think we're talking about the balance, I suppose, between people's health, wealth, and time. Some people say that they like to work. Some people are given a sense of meaning by work, which I think is a little bit different, they're given a sense of purpose. But knowing when you should stop working, saving. Yeah, it's a difficult decision.

These are difficult decisions. And usually when I talk to friends, right, like it's always a battle. It's an argument. Right. Like I actually to friends, right, like it's always a battle. It's an argument, right? Like I actually had conversation, a guy asked me to come and he wanted to ask my advice on something, game the advice and he just want to argue with me

about being right. And I'm like, I can't, you're gonna be like, I can't, I can't tell you that, you know, if you're on heroin and you want to give me the heroin argument, like I can't tell you you're wrong, right? Like this fulfills you, you know, if you're on heroin and you want to give me the heroin argument, like, I can't tell you you're wrong, right? Like, this fulfills you, you're saying it's the most fulfilling thing. All I can do is point to some stats, give a little bit of logic about like all the choices

with the odds that you picked the right one. And that there, it's unlikely that there's not more fulfilling things for you to try if you just exercise those muscles, right? But I generally tell my friends, like, listen, work to day, day, day, just make sure you enjoy the ride as well. Don't let it consume you. So hey, if you want to be the casual, occasional opium, you sure? Okay.

You know what I mean? If it's not affecting the rest of your life, right? It's not an addiction. But when I look at the totality, some people's lives, I'm like, this looks just like an addiction. It's compulsive work. Well, it consumes the rest of your life. It fucks up.

If it's fucking with your ski trips, and you're hanging out with your friends, and you have the travel, and time you get you have a lot of money than you need. Exactly. Oh, whatever. And there's no reason, right? We're just talking about entertainment dollars, right? We already got survival mode covered, right?

We've covered that number. So now, now, now we're talking about what's going on here, right? Now it's interfering with the rest of your life. Okay. So how do you know when to stop? This is individual for every person, right? And so for me, I'll just speak for me, is when it interferes with my life. So the technology has been great that it hasn't interfered enough with my life. And it still affords me things that I want that I cannot have that as opposed to pain.

So like I like to attach for me, I like to attach what am I working for? Because in theory, right, if I went through the exercise and heaven with God, and I had all my experiences, and we had a like nice little spreadsheet, and we attached all the dollar stone, I know exactly when to stop working and investing. Exactly, I'm like, I got it. Well, that's got number. It's covered. It's exactly the number I have enough

and I have it, my concept of enough, right? I have everything, I'm gonna get it, blah, blah, blah. All the experiences are gonna happen and then I'm gonna hit the grave, right? For me, it's, what is it that I don't have now and cannot afford how because the arc of my life that I want, right? And it's one thing that's it and

It's to the point. It used to be two things. I actually thought I wanted this plane What a bigger range and all this other kind of stuff, and I charted it, and I was like, I will not work. I will not waste hours of my life for this experience. It's not worth it, and I dropped it off the list, and it felt really good, because I was close, getting really close. I was like, this is great.

It felt great to shed that obligation. Like, I am not wasting hours of my life for this thing. And I was like, whatever money that was going to go to this thing, it's now going to bigger parties and other things and charity and here you go and that type of stuff, right? And so that felt really good. What's the one thing that's left? Ah, yeah, that's it. Like if you're like, hey, here's your golden ticket to a yacht, like a Willy Wonka style, you know, and you don't have to pay the mate. It's not the cat-back, it's the op-ex on yachts. Because I can do that for the rest of my life.

And I really enjoy it. It's a floating thing. It's very ostentatious and bullshit to say, but it's like that thing I really love. Like I like travel, I'm bougie, it's pretty amazing. But even then, I'm like, you know, there are other things I can do besides yachting, and I probably would only do it X months a year, and maybe I can cut that back

and find another activity. Malfi Coast is nice though. It's fucking amazing. And have you ever gone on a side? I just Serbia and all that area, like the Adriaticism. I mean, it's just amazing. So what you're looking at is a projection forward. What is it that I want to do?

What do I need to have in order to be able to do the things that I want to do? Right. How far off that am I? Yes, and the cost, right? Like, it doesn't... It's not... If I was out there digging ditches and it was very painful, right, and very taxing on my time. Yeah, the cost of earning the money.

My money in the time, the time. So, if I had to like, oh, I have to go to a nine to five and it's eight hours or whatever, but I don't work a nine to five. I trade commodities. It's hyper leveraged, right? There is some mental stress. There's a lot of people that are dependent, etc. But the yield on my time is pretty fantastic, right?

But you could imagine another universe in which the price that you paid other cost, as you said, in terms of your sanity, if you were wired slightly, definitely would be so extreme that it may not be worth it. No, I could definitely see it not be worth it, right? There's sometimes like, I trade commodities, it's crazy. There's a lot of stress. You know, it's not stressful for me because I'm just always like, I was gonna say you must be built for it if that's the case. I think all traders are, all good traders that last, they are.

Like a lot of it. It's it's selects out of the pool. Yes, because the most people I've been told need five to seven positive events to make up from one negative event. The best traders are 60, 40 if that, right? So that means they have, you know, the best in the world, which I'm not the best in the world, but like the best, best, best in the world are having like four bad days for every six.

And if they need one to seven, the emotional math doesn't work out. So there are people who are very smart, who come in with 6 through 40, but then the emotional math catches up to them, they go crazy and they lose money and they're out of the game. Right? We're just not worth it.

They're addicted to drugs or some other outlet to fix this emotional math that doesn't work. Like I have lots of shitty days. Today was a very shitty day, right? And I'm like, okay, so it's like that sometime. Like I don't, because I'll be optimizing for film at every wealth level, it doesn't really bother me.

I'm really happy to be alive. And I think everything else is gravy. Fuck yeah. So give money to kids and charity early. Yes. So this is, this is a lot of people. So like some people might be too scared to implement. I was early, they might still argue about a principle.

But one thing that hits a lot of people is, um, you know, that the same laws of physics that govern my body, right? The fact that most of us reach mental maturity at 28, physical peak maturity at 33, and then we're in plateau and decline. Every human, right? There might be some wild exceptions, right? So if you're at the bestest, bestest, bestest shape of your life at 33, you'll never be in better shape, right? Technology, notest, bestest shape of your life at 33, you'll never be in better shape, right?

Technology, not a standard, right? So, um, so, and then their ability to, um, enjoy experiences, certain experiences will decline as they age, right? They have that, that same, same, um, lifespan, archivic span, deterioration, etc. Right? And they also get the memory dividend, right? Using the memory dividend investing early. And so if you live to like 86 or 90 and you die and then you give your money Kids, you know people say I'm working for my kids. What about their inheritance? I'm like, well, what about your fucking kids? Who you want to get money to a 60-year-old? 56 Like eat a bag of dicks. Sorry. I'm not supposed to say this on this podcast You want to get money to a 60-year-old? 56? Eat a bag of Dicks.

Sorry. I'm not supposed to say this on this podcast. Like, what the fuck are you talking about? That's not thinking about your kids, right? We want to have maximum impact, maximum experience, right? So they want to go healthy. They want to enjoy it. They want to take their kids on vacation.

They want to... They're all kinds of experiences they want to have. Also remembering consumption-smoothing. Correct. The dollar amount will be more valuable the early year. Give it to them. Correct. So it's really about what is the most fulfilling time to give them the money. And, sorry, and you being able to enjoy the reflective glow of the money that you've given to your kids while you can still do a thing. I agree. That's more of a selfish way of doing it, but that is part of it, right? Like you get the you get. I'm an only child. Exactly. But it's part of it, right? It's part of the decision

process. But if we just focus on the children, you know, we want to have maximum impact, maximum fulfillment, their ability to have the most fulfilling life possible. And it's not given a bunch of money when they're 60. Not kids. They might not even be alive. Yep. Okay. Some kids do pre-decease their parents, unfortunately.

So, if we're really thinking about our kids, right, like if an inheritance is to impact them in a positive way and to give them the most fulfilling life and for them to have positive life experiences to give them the most fulfilling life and for them that positive life experiences We look considering the memory dividend Right having a event happen at 30 is a lot more dividends than an event at 60 right we got to think about their health and Their ability to do certain activities or their aptitude of willingness, right? They don't want to go to a Broadway show at 60.

You got to sit, it's too long, hurts my corns, whatever, I don't want to be in New York, the noise bothers me, right? I just want to hang out in Garden when I'm 60, right? You have to think about the arc of their life and things they want to do. And so the idea that you're delaying gratification for your kids that will lead to a lot of no gratification for your kids

that will lead to a lot of no gratification, the impact of that GIF, even if it's a lower amount between in their 30s, you know, 28 to 30, I recommend between 25 and no later than 33, right? Depending on how mature they are, et cetera. And people are like, well, I have a kid, he's not mature, and I'm like, listen, they are who they are now.

No amount, you know what I mean? Are you trying to idiot 33 year olds? It's not going to be a good one. It's a sage 45 year old. Exactly, so let them have their life. You lived your life. You know, I spoke to a bunch of people, and you know, they have these groups that are very wealthy, they meet.

And I can only talk about what I talked about. But I was like, fuck you, dude, you lived your life. Like your kid lived his life. You trying to control him from the grave? Is that what you're trying to do? You're trying to control him with money? Like do you want to give them money and have them have their ride in their adventure or not?

You know, not this. Oh, 90 and you're 62. It's just the dumbest fucking thing in the world. It's not really thinking about your kids, right? It's just something that culturally has happened. The king died and this guy is the new king and whatever. And then people started to have their own wealth and they started doing the same thing. You know, I died now. All these lands yours, you know, you know, maybe I don't want to be a fucking farmer. Why charity early then? Oh, so charity is the same thing like, I'm not going to save these starving kids now. I'm going to wait till I die. What is that? What is that? Like, is this some sort of

tip on way around? Are you really thinking about the needs of humanity and the people that wrote this planet with you? Is your ripple now? Or are you trying to save people 2,000 years from the future now? If would your judgment of this change if the ability of the money to compound to a crew no more volume. No. Why?

For me, if there was a fun, let's check an extreme example, the make a point. If there was a fun to save the Jews getting out of the Holocaust, I mean, like, no, I can get a better return and I can save more people in 2020. Like, fuck you, dude. Fuck you. You know? and I can save more people in 2020. Like fuck you, dude. Fuck you. You know, like, it's an extreme example. We don't have that example.

It doesn't exist. So, you know, and also the impacts on charitable giving, particularly in education, saving a life, a life compounds and does more wonders than any kind of investment you can do. So I also think it's just arrogant that my return is gonna be better than your life or these 10 lives or these hundred lives Right, like I just think it's an arrogant assumption and a false assumption

Right and like I'm here writing this planet with these humans and My ripple is now Right, I want to have an impact now and that investment now has a Now, right, I want to have an impact now. And that investment now has a huge, huge, huge return that I don't get to see, I can't quantify it. There's not a bunch of statisticians. And you know, it has an impact, right? I'm not just giving money to feel good.

I'm having an impact, but nobody's giving me a bunch of numbers, et cetera. I just know that the impact on that life is huge right now. And so life is urgent, life is now. Fuck yeah. Last one. Take big risks early, not later. Why? So I've debated this with friends, but the bottom line is is that for most people future you has other people and other obligations and you cannot recover as

quickly. I used to example like a panna was like smoking weed and crack and then he's present. It's hard to be smoking for weed and crack now and then later in life and be present. You can recover from so many things. You can fuck around for four years and then go to Med School and become a brain surgeon, right? And you don't have kids, other obligations, a path that you've dug for yourself that's harder to get out. You can reorient yourself and have met your time billionaire. You have a billion seconds, right? So you have a lot of time to recover, reorient yourself, and still have a very, very fulfilling life.

The consequences of taking what seems like big risks are not as great because of your ability to heal and recover. It's the same thing physically, right? If I tear something, fuck, it's going to take a long time. 17-year-old tear something like how did how did I eat? My daughter had she got airlifted out of out of Asmond to Denver childrens right. She got this infection and I don't know she was traveling and kids have porous bones so it went to the back of her eye and it was gonna go in her brain to like your daughter has to go now. So they took her out of a small hospital in Aspen, whatever, she had two surgeries. I was bulging out.

Her resting heart rate was 155, 160. I'm panicking, right? So they do the surgery. She's out of it. I thought this was the last time I see my daughter. A week later, she's like, can I go to camp? Can I go swimming? Look what the fuck?

You alien. What do you mean? Which? Exactly, you know? Rubber and magic. And like when you have two kids, like, you know, your first kid, I go, my God, I have a fever. You're running to the hospital.

You're yelling and screaming at each other. They drop in a fall. You're like flipping out or everything, right? But a second kid, you're like a rolling rung. They'll be fine. They'll be fine. They'll be fine. And so, but if I felt like that,

or I get sick like that, or if my resting heart rate is 155 Like calling the priest right like I was like calling the priest right and so This is like your time the the asymmetric aspect sorry about that That is my six o'clock alarm one of the technologies I I use that reminds me and prompts me to connect with my life So you would usually ring her text up. Well, we'll be in our chitles presence We'll usually maybe do an hour

We're trying to get an hour in we'll chat with each other. We'll drop everything and we'll connect or if we're busy Whatever's just like hey, baby. I love you like I love you to Come on. How's your day? Right? It's cool. So one of the technologies you use is you know when LLM If we're busy, whatever's just like, hey, baby, I love you. I love you too. I love you. I love you too. I love you too. I love you too. I love you too. I love you too. I love you too.

I love you too. I love you too. I love you too. I love you too. I love you too. I love you too. I love you too. I love you too.

I love you too. I love you too. I love you too. I love you too. I love you too. I love you too. I love you too. I love you too. I love a question. And it's going to be a little answer. Like, should I do this or whatever? Well, according to the philosophy, according to the spreadsheet, it's own so built.

According to your finances. So I can't wait for that happens because that's originally what I wanted. I do want a fucking book. You want to auto die with zero. I wanted this app for me to tell me what to do. Like you know, have a chef and they tell me what to eat. I want to think, like, Bill, go on a boat trip. After a boat trip, you're going to Vietnam camp this trail, hike here, stay in this hut. I know you don't like standing huts, but you're going to love

it. You know, I'm your hexa co-personality profile. Exactly. And then just keep just ideating and giving me the adventure. So then when I hit the grave, I have all these scars and I'm like, I use this fucking thing out. I had a great ride but up Going back to this take risk early, right? Like I I can't jump the wake the wakeboard wake right now. I can't I can't do I can't do these things And so the the the asymmetry asymmetry of the risks You know starts to disappear. But early means now, like what risk you can take now means early. And sometimes everybody always thinks financial. Right. Always thinks financial.

I'm like, tell the fucking girl you love her first. Bear your heart. Take the ride. It's probably going to get broken, but that's great. You'll learn from it, you know. Sometimes it means that. Sometimes it means just make the move. What would you say to the people who feel like they want to maximize their life, but they are risk averse in life decisions and job changes and breaking up with partners that are not right for them in finances. What would you say to them?

All right. I'm going to say something a little bit different. The first thing I would say is, fuck the haters because a lot of the times you don't do something it's because you're afraid of being judged by other people. A lot of people can stand the financial risk or even like the emotional risk or whatever they cannot stand the whispers and judgment of people that I told you so. A lot of people, I tell people this whole time, people like success, but they love a failure. And failure validates their own cowardice, right? So when you go out and you try the business and think and you fail, they're like, I don't

look like an idiot for not trying myself. See? Jim, Jim over here, he failed. So I don't, I don't look like an idiot for not trying myself. See, Jim, Jim over here, he failed. So I don't, I don't have to try. That's why I can live this miserable job that I'm afraid to quit or whatever. If you go quit, you go fucking succeed. Fuck.

They're exposed, they're on cowardice as exposed, right? But I say, just go live the adventure. Like it's not, we, I think we focus too much. I want a podcast and I, you know, I respect all these podcasters out there, getting idea out to people, summarizing them, taking a long ass blathering, boring guy like me, making it interesting and putting it out there for people. But I want the guys who tried and failed. I want the guys like fuck really? And then what happened? And oh my god, those are heroes, man.

You know, we always catch the, we always have, we always talk to the salmon who's upstream spawning, you know. But we need some of the salmon that like, fuck, I went the wrong way and I got eaten by a bear. I mean, obviously you can't talk for like, you know, like, this is what happened while I tried this, right? You know, because there's just learnings in that and there's a good ride and there's a lot of people who fail, but like I wouldn't do anything different.

Right? Maybe I tweaked the thing or this didn't happen to the bad thing or I would have been nicer to the employee and he wouldn't quit or whatever, but like, there's learnings in that. And that's what I do. The selection effect of the people who have the most notoriety are the ones that least familiar with failure or at least with at least family with big failure, catastrophic failure, which creates a world of people who are successes and only successes, talking and giving advice, which probably creates a culture downstream from that of people who are hypersensitized to failure.

I've been busted twice after making it. I've gotten the worst failure in my life. I've had some huge failures and some huge tries. And so I'm here on your podcast. People who are actually going to listen to me talk my bullshit and to the person out there, who's out there, who's on the edge, or if they really think about it, like it's a lot of it's your fear of being judged

and you judge in yourself. Just do your best so you can do. Get out there, take a life by the balls. Don't live, if you, like, there is some romanticism and I don't wanna take away from it from the cookie cutter simple life. There are some people out there who truly enjoy it. Like the talent of my life, I would love to be a farmer.

Just the monotony of growing things in the intricacy, right? But right now, I'm, I want scars, man. I want the right, I do not want the cookie cutter life. I don't want the racist ride. And so for the person out there who's like cookie cuttering it, but like really yearns to like strike out, trying anything, move to New City, chase the girl, say I love you first, you know what I mean?

Get in shape, run the marathon, whatever it is, right? Like, don't waste your fucking life, dude. Don't do it, don't let the fucking judgment of the haters make you waste your fucking life. I love it. Bill Perkins, ladies and gentlemen, if people want to keep up to date with the stuff that you do, where should they come? Oh my God. My Twitter account is just like chaos, but at BP22, you know, you might follow me and then unfollow me because I'm hot take city, but that's where you can actually, I can actually increase my Dumbar number. You know what I mean? Like you have a certain limit of social interactions, but I can occasionally random debate with people on Twitter. I love to chop it up there. It might be an addiction.

I'm on Instagram, but it's really just kind of like a diary for me to have a memory different from my life. So I video a lot of random shit or cool shit I'm doing. Highlight real, so that when I'm in my 80s, I can be like, that motherfucker was badass. This is great. Well, this is great. Yeah, I remember that. Remember that, you know, you're the memory jars, right? And so, so I'm Bill Perkins

on Instagram. I'm at BP22 on Twitter. That's about it. You know, I'm Roman and Winging Life just like the rest of you. Bill, I really appreciate you, man. I think it works very much needed. It's a great counter to a lot of the conversations that we're hearing at the moment about the sacrifice, mentality, monk mode, people that are, how do you say, justifying that own risk of version as nobility when it's not, it's fear. And I love the fact that there is someone saying swing for the fucking fences and just see how fucking... I'm not there, I'm not there,

if you wanna be in Monk mode, I'll hire you. I hire those people. It's like like Tiger Mom people, right? Like whatever, like they raise the kids. I'm sorry, I know we're supposed to be wrapping this up, but you can edit it out. No, no. The, the, this whole idea, like, they're like,

all my kids can do this and like, they raise these robots. And I'm like, they'll make great employees for my kids. Great fucking employees, right? You just took the soul out of these people and live in fear and then like, they'll exchange their whole guy, damn life, for like, what they consider a high salary and a little bit of prestige and a job.

And I'm like, I'll be the one sweat my fucking balls off, put all my money on the line, building a firm and your workers will be helping me get there as foot soldiers. And that's where they'll always be as foot soldiers and they can have their boring cookie cutter life. So be careful what values you ankle, okay? Exactly. Exactly. And so these hustle bros about like, you know,

I'm going to fucking do 10 years, 15 years in syncing. And then I'm going to be badass. When I'm 35, I'm like, dude, people in 35 really look back on their 20s. Like, if you ever go hang out with people and you go to dinner, a lot of the conversation is about the past. Shit, they've done. Like I actually had this plan that didn't complete because got divorced, but we were going to go live in a different city every summer. Because I was like, you know, maybe after 10 years of doing that, I'll be an interesting person. And people will talk to me, and I can have a lot of stories to talk about, right? But this is almost the exact opposite. I'm going to go with fucking jail.

Becomes some sort of money-making robot. Trying to become the most uninteresting person in the room. It's horrible. That's not what humans are. Humans are here to connect. We're wired to connect and enjoy it. We're wired to thrive. We're the only animal wired to thrive. Every other fucking animal is just trying to survive. Don't do that. That's all right. Bill Perkins, I appreciate you. Thank you for coming on, man. Thanks for having me.