Modern Wisdom - #652 - Chris Bumstead - The Mindset & Motivation Secrets Of 4X Mr Olympia

Episode Date: July 10, 2023

Chris Bumstead is a professional bodybuilder, 4X Mr. Olympia Classic Physique title holder, and a business owner. Chris is one of the greatest bodybuilders of all time. He's been called the Arnold Schwarzenegger of his era. But just what does it take to become the best in the world? What is the inner texture of a world champion like when he's as open as Chris about his failings and vulnerabilities? Expect to learn why pressure is a privilege, what it means to have a champions mentality, how Chris overcame his battle with anxiety, why he broke down sobbing on the bathroom floor 6 weeks before he won a world championship, how Chris thinks the modern world of bodybuilding compares to the golden days with Arnold, which steroid is so toxic that even Chris refuses to take, his top 10 exercises to build more muscle and much more... Sponsors: Get £150 discount on Eight Sleep products at https://eightsleep.com/modernwisdom (discount automatically applied) Get a Free Sample Pack of all LMNT Flavours with your first box at https://www.drinklmnt.com/modernwisdom (automatically applied at checkout) Get 5 Free Travel Packs, Free Liquid Vitamin D and more from AG1 at https://drinkag1.com/wisdom (discount automatically applied)  Extra Stuff: Get my free Reading List of 100 books to read before you die → https://chriswillx.com/books/ To support me on Patreon (thank you): https://www.patreon.com/modernwisdom - Get in touch. Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/modernwisdompodcast Email: https://chriswillx.com/contact/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello friends, welcome back to the show. My guest today is Chris Bumsted. He's a professional bodybuilder, four-time Mr. Olympia Classic Physique title holder, and a business owner. Chris is one of the greatest bodybuilders of all time, he's been called the Arnold Schwarzenegger of his era, but just what does it take to become the best in the world?

What is the inner texture of a world champion's mind like when he's as open as Chris is about his failings and vulnerabilities. Expect to learn why pressure is a privilege, what it means to have a champion's mentality, how Chris overcame his battle with anxiety, why he broke down sobbing on the bathroom floor six weeks before he won a world championship, how Chris thinks the modern world of bodybuilding compares to the Golden Days with Arnold, which steroid is so toxic that even Chris refuses to take it, his top 10 exercises to build muscle and much more. I can't believe how likable this man is. I think he might be the most likable human that I've ever met in my entire life. I find him so raw and open and vulnerable and inspirational. He is, he really is the whole package.

And in a world where everybody is asking what should men look to, who should they look to as a good role model, as somebody that embodies all of the well-balanced masculine and feminine virtues that everybody likes and proselytizes about saying that they want more of. Chris is that guy. He is 100% that guy and I have

an incredible soft spot for him. I know that you're going to take absolutely tons away from this episode. It is phenomenal. If you're new here, press the subscribe button. That is the only way that you can ensure that you'll never miss episodes. Plus, I did fly a production team of 10 out to Florida with over 100 grams worth of kit to film it all on cinema lenses in a disused warehouse. So, you know, it would be nice if you want to make me happy after spending all of that time doing it. I thank you. And if you do take a lot away from this, share it with a friend. It can really help to upgrade the texture of someone's own experience. There is so much in here that is inspiring and open, honest. I absolutely love it. Get ready for this one. But now, ladies and gentlemen, please welcome

Chris Bumstead. What does pressure is a privilege? I really dive into this quick. So casual then you just stare me in the eye and ask me for a question. Pressure is a privilege is definitely something that like evolved over time. I think I first heard it from Tim Grover, which is someone who kind of like his book relentless put my mindset into like the focus on my mindset and competing rather than just my physical body. Because I knew that's what it would take to like get to the next level.

And I think after winning in Olympia, I was like, oh fuck, like I just showed my cards. I had people know what I'm capable of. Now there's no one I gotta beat. There's no like second place third place, like flow. It's like, no, you're the best. And unless you're the best, we just forget about you. So it was like this pressure I felt to myself. And it was coming externally for a while. And I was trying to like understand how I could gravitate

that a little bit better without it kind of bringing me down and slowing down my progress. And I had to kind of function to the reality that the pressure was really coming from myself rather than externally and that it's a good pressure. It's a pressure to be better and to become the best version of myself. And it's something that if I choose to use it properly, it's going to push me to be a better version of myself to grow mentally, physically in my relationships. However, I want it to let me grow if I choose to take control of the aspects I have control

over. So in essence, it's the more pressure you have on you and if you take it as a privilege, it's a choice to put your perception of the privilege rather than a burden. And by taking the power back in that choice, it pushes you in a direction of being better rather than holding you back. Yeah, there's a pain that comes from the expectation of success, I suppose, which is different to your first time. You know, when you've got nothing to prove, you have nothing to lose.

The underdogs always define us. Is that the way that you've found it? I mean, I definitely, the beginning of my career was just, I never heard even had aspirations to be Mr. Lumpy when I said I just loved to train, loved the bodybuild. And then once I started to get that pressure on me, that started to fade a bit because I was taking in so much outside noise. When I stopped doing it for the right reasons of

why I started and just the fact that I love it and I joy and I joy pushing my body to limits. So that affected me for a bit. But even like my first ever Olympia win, because of other stuff I had gone through, I actually didn't even really enjoy it. Because of like stress of my health and pressure. So I may have gone through the year before. All this like not being present and suppressing all my like fears I had around it. I just like battled through what got there and I was like it's over. Like I just want to Olympia. This is goal. I've been chasing like for six, seven years specifically in the league. I have it and now why do I feel like I'm missing something? And I think I kind of uncovered that I was suppressing all this pressure, all this fear of my health, all these other aspects.

And in doing so, I was also suppressing my ability to feel joy, feel joy and excitement in the positive side of things. You always hear you can't selectively numb emotions. You have pretty much numb everything, or you feel all of it. And I was definitely a numb and kind of guy. I was like, fuck it, don't feel it, push it aside, compartmentalize and get to work. And I was just like, okay, no, this isn't right. Something's got to change.

And those two years, my, came second, the early year before I got sick. One that Olympian didn't enjoy it. This is like, all right, physical stuff is down, I won. I gotta focus on my mental side right now because I, if I'm doing this, I wanna love it. I started because I love it and I wanna keep doing it because I love it.

I'll remember the, Conor McGregor was talking about, I think, the first time that he won the interim title and then the second time that he beat Aldo in 13 seconds and before that fight, which seemed to be kind of peak McGregor, right? It was just this savant, like an artist of war. And someone was asking him, what are you going to do differently this time that he didn't do last time? And he said, I'm going to enjoy it. Because he stepped out on stage and there's that famous photo of him and he stood like this looking out at the way in and he said he can barely remember it.

Yeah, he's fucking amazing. You know the photo I mean he stood there and he's got that tattoo up at the back of his and he said I can barely remember it and he got another bite at the apple. He got to do it again. That's like and I it's a huge part of my life again like getting sick I And he said, I can barely remember it. And he got another bite at the apple. Yeah. He got to do it again. That's like, and I, it's a huge part of my life. Again, like getting sick, I felt like I was going to have to stop competing. And then I won that Olympia. And I'm like, okay, now I have the opportunity to do this again, right?

Like, that's an absolute blessing. Like, I'm so grateful that now I get to do it again. And I've done it four times, and I'm going for a fifth. Like, the fact that I've had four years to, like, enjoy it more. And, perhaps, and, like, perfect my craft. It's just, like, it's something I'm, like the fact that I've had four years to like enjoy it more and perhaps and like perfect my craft. It's just like, it's something I'm like counting my days that I'm grateful for every single morning. So it makes it more fun.

I've heard you say that winning is not what I once thought it was. I have found it to be much more complex than our traditional definitions of success. What's that mean? It comes from when I was younger, just like wanting more stuff, a lot of external stuff, a lot of success, again, things that have your control. I wanted like circumstances and objects. I wanted success thinking of something I could like, the world could give me rather than something I could give myself. And I look at winning as success, it's kind of one in the same. And there's this awesome quote by I think Jim Query, Jim Kerry. And it goes, I wish for the world to realize all of their dreams, so that they can realize they don't make them complete. And he's talking about that. Most people, the dreams are very like external, like champions, like they want to win a medal.

They want to trophy, want a nice car, and all the stuff, then you get it. And when you have everything, you realize this isn't what I wanted. I don't feel complete right now. And I have the amazing opportunity in my life to have accomplished so many of my dreams and realize that they're still avoid missing there. The more money I get, the more titles I get, the more I get. It's not filling me up more. But then I discovered that over time, like, it's the effort, it's the journey. It's like suffering through times that I don't want to be at the gym or why I want to put on my diet and I push myself and every single moment, every day leading up to the journey. It's like suffering through times that I don't want to be at the gym or why I want to quit on my diet and I push myself and every single moment, every day leading up to the show. And I win all those moments. That's winning. That's like winning in life

continuously every day. And through that journey, being able to build my relationships, not sacrifice them for winning, be able to make myself a better person, not a more stressed out anxious person, all that stuff coming together. I've already won before I have a trophy in my hands. When I stand on stage, I haven't quit on a workout, I haven't quit on a cardio session. My girlfriend still loves me in the back when she didn't hate me from neglecting her for the last three months of prep. I'm like, I won.

You know, like I feel fucking good right now. And if I lose them, I'm gonna leave them to be really sad and cry and grieve that loss absolutely, but I'm just looking to be proud of everything I put in. And at the end of the day, that's all I can control and to me that's winning. How much do you think the joy of winning is just relief and a brief respite from fear of not being enough? A lot of it. A lot of it. And I've talked to other people who have one thing before and myself and that first of all, in people with a test of that,

like the biggest thing I felt with just relief. I'm like, fuck, I did it, it's over. You can relax. I'm not a loser. I'm not a piece of shit. Yeah, it's like that. Exhale. And then a day or two goes by or a week or something, and you're like, I gotta do that again. But better.

If I ever wanna feel like that again, this expectation's on me now. I have to do it more, and I have to do it better. I have to be better, I have to work harder, I have to take myself to those limits, and further. To give now that's my standard. And now I need to overcome that standard to really impress anyone.

Like the whole thing is showing your cards. So when someone knows you're good, how good you are, that's a baseline. You have to be better than that to be like, okay. So what is your advice to someone that is struggling with the pressure of success? Perhaps, you know, for a long time, they've been thinking that they want to get to a place

then they set a standard. And now they realize this pain of having to meet that standard again. How have you managed to balance these two worlds, the desire to continue to be better? And also the requirement to be able to be grateful and enjoy the present moment? I think on one aspect in something that is very strange, I think, for people to hear, because a lot of champions we hear are just like killer mentality, like, win at all costs. I think on one aspect, I've accepted that I'd be okay with losing. I accepted that if I lost, like I said, I would grieve, I would be sad, it would suck, but like, life would go on, I would be okay.

And the Olympia is a huge part of my life, but it's not everything part of my life So kind of giving myself permission to fail in essence almost give myself permission to try harder And I maybe it's not like that for everybody, but for myself as soon as I was like, okay, if this happens and I lose what then like I either Quit leave and move on with my life or I come back and I try harder and that motivates me for more But other way, I'm still me. I still have who I am as a person, that I always control, I have my relationships, people I love around me, and a lot of beautiful stuff going on my life.

So I'm gonna be okay. And that really just kind of alleviated a lot of pressure and gave me permission to perform even more. A lot of people are afraid to even try hard because then if you try hard and you fail, you feel like a failure. Mm. But the aspect of being a failure

doesn't come from the success in the end. It comes from if you really quit on yourself, or if you don't put in the effort you know you can put in and you're kind of holding back on your true potential. That's what I think you really deep down feel like a failure underneath your soul. Yeah, there's some interesting trends at the moment that I'm noticing. One of them is something I've called the cynicism safety blanket. That's what you're talking about now, I think. Cynicism is a guarded response, which sets yourself up against disappointment.

It's all within the system is to protect you against experiencing anything bad. It is a preemptive strike against a perceived threat. If I tell myself that all women are bad, then I'm less likely to seek a relationship with women. And as a consequence, I'm never going to feel the pain of rejection. If I tell myself that everything is shit or that things will never get better, then I'm excused of ever having to try at anything. It is more comfortable to get fatalistic and call it pragmatism. The cope is framing hope as pathetic and embarrassing and optimism as delusion.

It sower grapes at an existential level. If everything sucks and everyone is terrible and reality is Disappointing and you know that for a fact, then it's the people acting like things can be better that are dumb, Delusional and the problem. The upside of never having to try is never having to feel the pain of failure. I think that's what you're talking about there. Yeah, very much so. And I think that even That applies to all aspects of life. And what really pushed me to like learn these lessons, again, I'm not like a psychologist or a kid like that, but I've lived a lot of life and I've had a lot of ups and downs. And in 2018, I've diagnosed with sonata with

immune disease. I was in the hospital for my Olympia prepa, about four weeks out for a week. And I came out and I didn't know if I was going to be able to compete. I didn't know if I'd be even healthy ever again. I thought everything was going to be taken away from me. And I got through it. I came second at that Olympia somehow and it was like a battle to the death of numbing everything and just suppressing anything I feel and just trying to focus on bodybuilding. And I did that for about a year and a half. And this whole mindset I built around it was this fear of that I'm going to get sick

again. I need to quit bodybuilding because I'm going to get sick. I don't have control over my health. I'm going to get sick again. I need to quit bodybuilding because I'm gonna get sick. I don't have control over my health. I'm gonna get sick. And I'm just as constant fear with looming over my head because if I got sick, then I could be like, I knew I'd get sick. You know, like it was good.

It was bound for everything to be taken away from me. It almost happened last year. It's gonna happen next year. And I was just living in that to create, almost prepare myself. To create a little safety blanket, like you said, to just be like, okay, when it happens, I can say I told you so, I was right,

and I'm ready for it. Rather than leaning into actually enjoying life and kind of moving past that. So I had to really like reframe my mindset, and I started to, I grew up through this whole journey of like, after that, I turned into, you won't get sick, trying to convince myself, I'm not gonna get sick. I'm not gonna get sick.

Denial, exactly. But then you're living in a sense of lack and avoidance, and then you're also constantly thinking of that. And when you're thinking of that constantly, it puts you about your body in the state of reaction, where you're waiting for something to happen. And when something happens, you're like, fuck, it's against what I keep telling myself.

And then I switch to telling myself, no, you are healthy. Instead of thinking not, then, and lack, what do you want? Be like, you are healthy. You are going to be OK, all this stuff. And then that still didn't really make me feel better, because I'm still kind of unknowing. And then I literally came to the conclusion that I don't fucking know. I was like, the only truth right now is that I don't know what's going to happen, but there are measures I can take to take control of my health that best that I can. And the rest is up to the universe. But if the more I stress about and more I think about it, it's creating more

of the state of reaction myself. It's taking me out of the present moment to be able to enjoy and perform the way I know I can and I'm not able to enjoy it. And I still battles, of course, sometimes I didn't just forget about it, but just the understanding and baseline that I don't know the future. So I have to let go of some of those things. The only thing that really helped my mind get through all that time and I mean, continuously now when I compete and I'm like, am I going to get sick? Like, I don't know. But when it happens, you're going to deal with it and you'll be okay. So just enjoy this moment right now.

What's your inner voice like now? Because I've heard you talk about battles with depression and anxiety in the past. That's something that I dealt with throughout all of my 20s as well. And me reflecting on the change in the texture of my own mind through a lot of self-work and a lot of external work too, like I can't pretend like the external aculades of the world, me proving to the world and the world saying that yes, you are good enough because the things that you have applied yourself to have been given the rewards that you wanted. But yeah, what's your inner voice like now

is someone who used to deal with depression and anxiety? I was definitely more leaning into the anxious more rather than depressed and that was more like just projecting the future based off on heeled wound from the past and fears what happened. The past was gonna repeat itself. But now I think my inner voice is just

and it's a constant work I'm doing. I think mental health in general is like putting in reps. It's not just like, oh, I'm good. It's like continuously giving yourself the love you need mentally and physically. And I'm just trying to build a lot more empathy and compassion for myself because I didn't directly shame myself being like, you're not good enough. You're a piece of shit. Oh, this shit, but I would be like, I expected more of myself.

Like we're talking with public speaking. I'm like, you just want to for limp. It's an I grew literally like, I expected more of myself. Like we're talking with public speaking, I'm like, you just want to for limp, you know, you're literally like heart racing, can barely breathe, because you're about to talk in front of like a few hundred people, like you should be able to do this. You're better than this. And that's a form of shame in itself of expecting something out of myself that maybe I'm not ready for or just rather than accepting who I am

and where I'm at my life. So I think just building that compassion and being like accepting who I am and who I am isn't what this like this perception that maybe people have built with me. And you know, I believe you had this guy on Peter Crone. Love that guy. He has this quote when he says, life presents you as people and circumstances to show you where you're not free. And I think that the way I spoke about my inner voice and this expectation of myself with where I wasn't free and in life put me in this position of millions of people was this idolized perception of someone they look up to is calm, cool, collected, how they should together see by me so good he's up there.

And I was like, I really have to be that now. Like, I better be fucking perfect now. You know, my dad was like that growing up too. So I had this like, okay, man, or stoic and they don't feel anything and they can, they weather the storm and they're good. And I did was like a most, a very sentient being like emotional. And I was like, fuck, so I kind of denied that part of myself for a while. But now being able to just integrate that and accepting it is who I am and being able to show it more and allow it to come up more in situations. Like I almost

try and twist some conversations, like allow myself to be like, I'm not perfect, I have anxiety. I just like show that it's there and I'm feeling like, well now this facade's kind of gone. The presentation isn't to be what people want me to be, it's just to be myself and whatever happens after that I can fuck off. So I guess overall the inner voice in myself I'm building is just more compassionate empathy.

I would say so too. I remember I did this workout, the high interval workout thing on a an assault bike and this guy that was coaching me at the time asked me to try and remember where my mind went to when my heart got into zone five. Yeah, so whatever like 160 170 bpm and above and The voice this is probably six or seven years ago and the voice that came back was fucking awful Like it was so just this sucks. You're not good enough panic like tightness and and and terror and I did a workout again a couple of months actually knows two weeks ago with Tim Kennedy

You know Tim UFC guy like a professional bad guy, but he works for the US government. Anyway, I did this workout with him and my heart rate must have got to that same place. And it's the first time I've done it since then. And the words that came back to me was so different. I couldn't believe it. I was like, oh my god, I thought that was the, I genuinely thought that was the physics of my own inner experience. Like these were just unchained. Yeah. Yeah.

These are just the unchanging dynamics. These are the laws of the insight inside of the mind over time. You had done like you had to work on it and put in a raps and like understand or was it just purely your physical like abilities and success in the world telling you you're good and the podcast is exceeding all this shit? Well, that or was it more personal like reflection and empathy? So are both I think both I would love to be able to say you know just 1500 sessions of meditation and a couple of good psilocybin trips and you know that was me sorted but it would be a lie to say that

The world It would be a lie to say that the world telling you or you proving to the world and the world saying back, answering back that yes, you are good enough. I think it's unrealistic to have confidence when you don't have an undeniable stack of proof that you are who you say you are. Like if the only place that your confidence exists is in your mind and you've never manifested it into reality, then what you're asking for isn't confidence, it's delusion. Yeah. Because how can you say that you are all of these things? I'm a really great husband. I feel like a great husband,

but I go out and cheat on my wife every night. Yeah. Well, there's an incongruence here, but you can behave in the way of being a great husband and not believe it yourself, because you have unhilled traumas from the past, and stuff like that. So it's definitely both.

But yeah, it's just really, really important, I think, for people to hear that the answer to the holes and the voids that you feel inside of yourself, if the guy that's won Mr. Olympia four times in a row is telling you that the inner work is an important part of that process, and that upon winning the first one the main sensation was relief my happiness What do you where do you think that you're gonna get this from if you're seeking outside of yourself validation to fix something that's inside? It's being smart enough to like balance that too and like know the work you have to put in so like you have to earn the right like you said You can't just tell yourself it's illusion you have to earn the right, like you said, you can't just tell yourself it's a illusion, you have to earn the right to get there. You

have to put in the work and then you have to kind of like lean into the, okay, now I'm really putting in the work now, I need to work on how, why I'm talking to myself so negatively or not, but unless you have both there, it doesn't really work. Like one plus one equals two, but you can't really do one without the other. What else does it mean to have a champion mentality to you? I know that you talk about this a lot. What are the principles that you rely on for that? Again, something that definitely elevated over time. I literally just put that on a shirt once because it sounded cool and now they all fuck like this. There's more to this. I think the biggest thing was

Originally was like just winning and it evolved into just like a no-quit mentality. It's accepting these fears I have, this doubt I have, this everything that goes through my mind, but regardless of that not quitting and not giving up on myself. No matter how hard is the time or what I'm going through and whatever I should I feel, I'm still going to put in the same work, regardless of how I feel, and that's a champion mentality because champion thought, controlled by their outside circumstances there, they their own mind and side and how they act and then the world goes on around them. With huge aspect of that,

and I'm also now leaning into, I really think greatness and champions, not only elevate themselves, but the people around them. And I think it's, you are put into a position where you can help, whether you look close people around you, people who follow you, people who look up to you, whatever it might be, anyone in your life, you're in a position now of greatness where follow you people look up to you whatever it might be anyone in your life

You're in a position now of greatness where you can elevate others up to a higher level and being able to inspire them bring them up to be better people is part of what makes you great rather than just a selfish act of being you being the best for yourself Why is it important to not let anyone here you complain? I've heard you talk about this It's more so not let anyone hear you complain. I've heard you talk about this. It's more so, that's a quote, that was old quote. I think I've accepted that one a little bit more, but it's more so just not living in the negativity. Life's gonna get suck, but the more you focus your perception on it, the way you see the world is what the world is.

If I choose to be like, today sucks, I'm tired. I don't wanna do cardio, I'm fucking two weeks out eating 1500 calories. Like this sucks. That's what I'm talking about. That's all I'm going to live in. I'm going to be like bodybuilding sucks. Prep sucks. Why do I do this?

But if I'm like, this suffering is literally what's going to make me great and going to bring me that amazing moment on stage and all these memories of everything and this like, it's pushing me to these limits that I know make me feel proud of myself and all these things if I focus more on the positive side of things, I'm going to enjoy the reality regardless of the change. The circumstances can be the exact same, but your perception changes everything about how you feel about it. I think a lot of people who are successful or who are

bodybuilders usually kind of tap out because they make it seem like this miserable thing, they all fuck, I have to start dieting. Oh, I got to do cardio and then you're just like complaining about it. And why would you want to do anything you complain about every day rather than understanding that it's a choice and the beautiful things that come from it or what you should be focusing on and at least some more progressive growth. Well, I mean, think about any champion that you imagine in your mind. Do they complain? Like is it is a champion the person that complains?

Yeah, no. There's a guy called Josh Waitskin. He was the guy that the film's seeking Bobby Fisher was written about. So he's a chess prodigy at a young age and he decided to just abscond. He was seen as the new American phenom, right? It was a wonder kid, absolute beast as a child.

And he gets basically to the top of the game of chess and then decides to leave. He goes into Chinese push-hands. It's like fighting Tai Chi kind of, gets to the top of that sport and then exits again. Like, you can't contact him on the internet. He doesn't have a website, but this guy is a Savant. And he did an episode of Tim Ferriss and he was talking to Tim about the way that him and his

son reframed the weather. And he was saying that a lot of parents will say to their son or daughter, we can't go outside to play today because it's raining. Isn't it ashamed that we can't go outside to play because it's raining, which puts all of the power outside. Correct. All of the power is outside. So him and his son have worked very hard on saying things like, what a beautiful day it's raining outside. We should go outside and play in the rain. And I think that there's so much wonderful insight in that reframe that he's giving.

It seems like it's the same. Definitely. And there's an example. I don't know if you talk about it. It can sound a little fucked up to say. But when I was young, I always look at the clock and see 9-11. I don't know why, but I would look at it and it would say 9-11. And I would be like, fuck, like something's bad going to happen.

And I would worry like that. And I was a little kid at the time. And I don't know if it was just like manifesting it, but I would like every day for a while look at the clock and that would be the time. And then when I was growing up, I was like, instead of like constantly living and like thinking this is bad, why don't I switch that? Like kid, something horrible happened on that date, and I'm like terribly grieving of all the people

and that's horrible, but they're having a hangin' hangin'. This was after 9-11. This was after 11. I thought you were talking about you with some premonition. Oh no, I'm not that old. Fuck, yeah, you would have been like six when it happened. Like six, yeah. Yeah, I don't know. been what, like, six, when it happened to us.

Like, six, yeah. Yeah, I don't know, I thought you were like, the child from the fucking fifth element. I wouldn't have read it. Oh, no, no, no, no. I wish I actually know, I'm glad I can I read the feature, I would never want that. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.

But yeah, anyways, it was, instead of me fearing the number now every time I see it, I still see it all the time, it was like, okay, like, people died for this, but like our country is still like standing, people are still strong, instead of now making them death and make it ruining my day, why don't I see you it as good luck, you know? This is like a good luck moment.

So for me, like I'm on the right path, like people see 11-11, I see this and this means I'm just moving in the right direction. 9-11 is a good luck moment for you. If you choose for it to be, it's if you're just your perception. And now we see it on like fuck yeah, we're on track, let's go.

Instead of you being like something gonna happen, I feel better about it. And just reframing your mind, you know? Okay, and I'm not trying to like put anything positive on while happening because it was horrible, but I know what you mean. Try not to fuck up my own mind, you know? Yeah, in other news, this episode is brought to you

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That's e i g h tleep.com slash modern wisdom. That's e-i-g-h-t sleep.com slash modern wisdom. You mentioned it earlier on six weeks out from the Olympia. You were on the bathroom floor crying. Can you take me through the story of that day where your mind was at, what life was like at that time and sort of what the texture of your own existence was like that led up to that point? Yeah, for sure. I mean, this is part of it. I actually can't touch on. That's just too private.

But it was Olympia. I'd been prepping for weeks, like going on in my life. Something happened within my family that was really stressful that I'm not going to touch on. But it was greatly impacting us going forward and causing a lot of stress and anxiety in my self and my whole family. And we had just moved to Florida, all this shit going on. Self-fears about my health. And I had gotten the sign of my health going wrong. It's inflammation of my shins. I get a Dima. And I started to get that a little bit.

Fatshins. Fatshins. Yeah, they're not quite giggled, but there's just my shins get fat, you know? Okay. So I'm getting this a Dima in it, all this personal stuff on the side, and I just, I didn't speak about anything. It was just like, okay, wake up, do cardio, you know, go to the gym, go to work, do this, do that, just don't think about it, put it down, push it down, push it down, and I kept doing that.

And then I just, I think with my fiance, she was noticing I was a little bit off, and so I like having good people around you, fucking everything, when you have like a stressful life, and she just knew something was off, and she's like, are you good? Like how are you doing? I'm like, I'm good She asked me again. She's like, are you good? I'm like, yeah, I'm okay Like she's like and then I was like in the bathroom. She came in back. Are you okay? I'm like, yeah, she asked me one more time. She's like, are you like look at me? Are you okay? And I just started bawling and I had no idea I didn't know I was that stressed out

I just was like numb and I just Started bawling like hit the floor was just sobbing. I was like I just feel like the world's crashing. Yeah, I know me right now. I feel like all this shit's going on externally. And I'm just trying to focus on the limp. You have one, two, I have to be better. I'm getting so close. I feel behind like all this shit's going on now. I have this business. All this chaos going on in my life. And I just like I don't know if I can handle this. And she's just like, yeah, fuck yeah. Like of course you feel like that. Like no shit. This is like I don't know if I can handle this. And she's just like, yeah, fuck yeah. Like of course you feel like that.

Like no shit. But she's like, I don't know why like you can share this with me. Like the world is on your shoulders. It's fucking stressed out right now. And it should be. This is a lot of opportunity in front of you. And if you want to quit, you can. But I know you and I know you won't.

And right now, did you just need to sit in this, cry, let it out. I'm here with you. But I know you're gonna get out from this. You're gonna go to the gym. You're gonna kill your work, you're gonna wake up, and you're gonna keep doing that. But this is normal part of what you're going through.

She was literally like, you don't think Michael Jordan had ever broke down and felt like he couldn't handle the stress that was on him, be like building the NBA into what it was, not even just his team, I was like, fuck, like yeah, he didn't talk about it though. And she was like, well, fuck yeah, then none of them knew, no men know how to talk about their emotions properly.

And it just like, she just like built this confidence in me. I was just like, fuck yeah, they none of them knew it. No men know how to talk about their emotions properly. And it just like, she just like built this confidence in me. I was just like, fuck yeah, of course, like, this is a huge pressure to the luck going on. And I'm stressed. What's wrong with that? I'm not gonna let it control me, but I'm allowed to feel this moment right now. And that was just like, wow, you know,

like I can lean on people. People are there to help me. I can share how I feel. And someone's gonna actually make me feel better because my whole life, it was just bottle everything up. You can handle it all by yourself. You're a man, you can handle this shit. And I was just like, no, I'm allowed to feel, but who I am is not going to be controlled

by these feelings. So it was just a huge moment in our relationship, too. I'm everyone in what's our family alone. I have stress. I haven't been to provide for a family of like the old to men. The men who feel like they have to provide and like the world is on their shoulders,

they don't understand that like, their wife and their family wants to help them. Like, they might not make it easier, but like they'll get under that weight with you and they'll hold that with you. And it's not a burden to them. Cause I always felt like asking for help would make me a burden.

I'd be like, I'm just gonna make someone else's life harder. So like they're stressed out over there. I don't wanna add to that. I'm just gonna be okay over here. But it actually makes them feel close to you. It gives them purpose. People want to be one to do that. Yeah, you got someone for help,

they're like, fuck yeah, like I feel good about myself today because I helped this person. And it really brought our relationship closer in that moment. It made her feel like I just helped him in this part where he said he can do it all by himself all the time. And now I'm like, fuck yeah, like I really needed that. And it was a really important moment for my personal growth, champion growth, relationship growth. There's a meme at the moment of the sort of Lone Wolf sigma male guy that's

making great things happen on his own. Yeah. I'm pretty sure that you are the footage that's used over the top of a lot of these sigma and memes in any case. Yeah. Could you do this on your own? Fuck no. No, none of it. I couldn't do my YouTube without Calvin. I couldn't have started my businesses without Maddie.

I couldn't be doing raw supplements without Dom and Mad, who are my partners in that. I wouldn't be the man who I am without my dad. I wouldn't be able to have gotten through my stress of the teenager without my sister. I wouldn't have gotten through last four Olympias without Courtney. Like, it's just like, I almost get emotional thinking about it. But when I like, reflect back on like what I'm most grateful for, it's always the people in my life and I'm so fucking lucky. It's like crazy. Like the people I have in my life are everything in the relationships I like built. Me and the world to me. I literally like cry sometimes by myself like doing like a gratitude reflection or something, but it's relationships in my life are everything and I just I know I wouldn't

be where I am without it and I would never be the one to think I could do it all by myself. Wasn't the story of your parents waiting in line to get your autograph one time? They've been to every limpia and they go to the athlete meet and create and they wait for like an hour in line or something. What the fuck are you doing mom? I'm like we don't want to bother you. We just want to picture. I'm like you're fucking crazy.

Like you have VIPs and you can come backstage. You can do whatever you want here. Yeah. And that's like that's that humility that they raised to me though. You know, they never expect anything. And there's always quietly there in the back when they support me. I wonder whether part of that humility is maybe where you not wanting to lean on other people comes from.

I do think it's part of it for sure. And I mean, my dad is still like my number one role model, but he didn't ask for help. Even if he wanted to do something with me, he wouldn't like building a fence. I'd have to be like, Hey, dad, do you want me to help? And he like love that, but he wouldn't have asked, you know, he like all this like no matter what my family was going through dad was just like there standing up straight. He's got a clean head. He's got a philosophy isn't it? All of it. He had it. And I'm like, how the fuck did you do that for so long? Have you ever asked him about it? I have.

And now that I've gotten to this age, I've like gone to him. I'm like, do you ever like just feel like fucking exploding and just like stressed and he's like, not really know. And I'm like, what the fuck? They made him different man. They made him different in the 60s. He was built different. Yeah.

And he jumps from a family that was very resilient too from a small town, you know, working class throughout the generations. And he's just like, the beast. But I had to really learn that that's not normal. That's not me. And I had to accept that. But it was, that's what would definitely part of the journey. So I think that's definitely,

trying to have too much of a prescription about how you're supposed to go about things. Oh, well, this is the way that men are supposed to be. On average, there are ways that men and women are, and there are sex differences between the two of us. And there are ways that men from Canada and men from Britain will differ, etc. And so, people from different classes, people that were born at different times. But I think that you're a really good role model for somebody who has a particular programming. And as opposed to trying to retrofit you into some mold that isn't you, when you did that, that was when you found friction.

Yeah, exactly. And that was when there was incongruence. And that's when you weren't able to enjoy things because you weren't able to fully embody all of this stuff. Yeah. And also it seems like a big part of it is finding a partner who's prepared to see vulnerabilities as strength rather than a weakness. For sure. Yeah. But she's also seen both sides. She's seen like the utmost resilience of what I've been through and they're like,

she's like, I don't know, she's like, something's gonna happen to you this year because something happens every year, but it's probably not gonna affect you. She's like, it'll stress you out, but you're still gonna win the Olympics because I know you can do it. Cause I've shown her that proof.

You know, I've shown her that and now I've also shown the emotional side and she's like, okay, yeah, he's gonna fucking break down and cry in front of me, but he's gonna get up tomorrow and get back to work. So it's like, it's that you and Yang of being able to compliment the masculine with the feminine and intertwine it and the right balance out whatever works for you without kind of holding you back. And that's honestly part of the, I mean, I could have a thousand bullet points on her

champion mentality, but I used to look up to people and I still do like Michael Jordan But that's not fucking me. That's not how I'm gonna be a champion forever He wanted to kill everyone and fucking took stuff personally everything with a battle to the death of being the best And like I don't feel like that, but that's okay. I can still be a champ. There's no rules to be a champion You know, you make a champion makes his rules, and rides out the wave like that. I like that. Did you watch the new Arnold documentary talking about champions?

I haven't yet. No. Wow. I mean, it's very interesting, especially because you live seen pumping iron, in a gas. So I probably haven't watched that for about 10 years now, but reflecting on that era of not only bodybuilding,

but America in general, it's so romanticized. It's so cool. I told one of my friends this, we were driving from Austin to Houston to go to a bachelor party. And as I was going past, it's just endless freeways and huge factories with flags that are 100 feet in the air

and the flags 40 feet high and it's slowly waving. It's pretty, you know, it's not a country that I even like, I'm from, but it's pretty patriotic. You think that's cool. But it made me nostalgic for an era that feels like it's almost sort of fallen away and watching the Arnold doc really reminded me of that sort of unbounded blue sky vision that everybody had.

It was pretty fucking cool. But for the people who have seen the Arnold stuff and are maybe less familiar with what's happening in your world of bodybuilding at the moment, what are the differences between Arnold Zero and yours now in classic physique? Like physically? Yeah. Essentially. I mean, obviously, you look back at sports to everything progresses over time. We get more efficient with nutrition, with dieting, with PEDs, with rest, with recovery. Everything just gets more efficient and everything excels and you push limits further and further. So now I mean, open body buildings, just you look at it and you don't even question that they're even the same.

Open classes, no limitation, no weight limits. Do their own stage at 300 pounds, like 3% body fat, just fucking monsters. Like huge. Stuff you can't even find them. Like when I see even person selling, like, wow. That's a real person, which is insane. But back in the Arnold days, it was purely like, it was bigger upper bodies, legs weren't massive.

You weren't shredded. It was more about being full and round and just like aesthetic. And which is what classic physique was broadened brought in for but even still the contrast classic Vizique versus like the Arnold era, it's way leaner now, it's still it's getting to just as lean as the open bodybuilders, it's like shredded glutes, you know your ass is just stride at the end of the day feathered quads just looks like you have no body fat on you and probably probably about the same way I think Arnold was 240 on

stage, approximately. And my weight cap is 240 on both 239 when I weigh in. So we're about the same weight, just like now, it's just required to be a lot less body fat. So if you put Arnold and Serge Nubre on stage now, they would look aesthetically pleasing, but that condition would be significantly different to the guys that are up there now. Yeah, it would be the same. But what would be interesting is if you could put Arnold to be born in 1990 and then come up in this time.

Does genetics, and those whistle all the stuff now, what would he look like? Sertian Brae would be even bigger freak. Arnold's a goat because he did it first, but I think Sertitude Bre would be like insane to see an art generation. Is there a part of you that wishes, obviously, you'd have to, the family would have to come back

and the misses and all of that stuff, but is there a part of you that wishes that you could have had a crack during the golden era as well? No, I've never really thought of that, honestly. I really think this arrow right now is just perfectly like where I meant to be and obviously it's been working out pretty fucking great so far, so I don't temptate with that. I'm just grateful for what I'm at. I read a story that you bought an inversion table.

Is this true? I did, but it came with a hundred like page pamphlet and like 500 like instructions to put it together and I never put it together Right, so this is story that says you bought an inversion table so that you could make yourself a quarter of an inch taller So that you could get an extra 10 pounds weight limit in your category. I tried. Yeah, I did but I didn't put it together I went to a chiropractor consistently and they have a machine that's just your spine It's not no machine that just pulls you. Is that not just the medieval rack? Is that not a torture thing?

It looks like it. You've got a peasant with one of those floppy caps on. Yeah. It looks like it. Here we are, man. It looks more like Frankenstein. You sit in this machine upright and then it tilts you down and they have a thing around your waist that just pulls your spine.

Right. And I did that for a while, but I'm just over 6'1", so I'd have to green a full inch to be over 6'2", so I would never do it, but I also don't want to shrink. So I've definitely tried a few things I hang from bars all the time to elongate my spine. It's also just good for your spine. But yes, classic physique is just a battle to be taller, essentially, to make your weight. I've seen a bunch of rumors on the internet saying that if the timing was right, you would roll straight from a classic physique show potentially into an open show.

Definitely thought about it. Have you really? I have. But there's no open shows after the Olympia. There's like one in Japan, but I would want to do like a decent show. I'd rather stack up beside like a top 10 Olympian and see like, how do you think you get on? It depends on the show. If you were to put me in the Olympia,

if you put me in the Olympia the way I look in classic right now, I don't think I would do top that I would hit the top 10, but I think if I was able to like be a little bit less leaner and fuller and like I always have to die down about five pounds of muscle just to make my weight. So if I were able to be like full as fuck, like sometimes I'm in my check-in pictures, when I'm four weeks out and I have a high carb day, I'm like, I'm on a bodybuilder and I was crazy. I would love to just see what this looks like on stage. I think I could be like top, give me a year and I think I could be top 15 in like Olympia.

But there's no part of you that's like, fuck, I should give that a crack. No more than just that, like this band-try, like, I just really truly like, I love classic physique, and I love what it pushes, what it inspires people to be, more so than when I was young, I literally was about to quit bodybuilding in 2016, because I turned pro, and I was like,

I have to be 300 pounds or go down to Ben's physique, and I wasn't wearing board shorts, and I wasn't getting a 300 pounds, so I was gonna retire. But then literally that year classic physique came out, and I was like, this is for me, I'll give it a shot and then just ran with it. Yeah, it seems so perfect in terms of the timing for you, in terms of being able to find a sport that you actually enjoyed that wasn't going to make you go too freaky. So what would you need to do? Let's say that you did go across to open, what would you have to do to your

physique in order to be able to improve? A lot of it would be, so right now I give my body a lot of rest after the Olympia. I compete once a year and I take like three months off the Olympia and then coming back it's just like relearning proper training patterns, perfecting my form, like making sure I'm healthy. And so if I really want to do the open, I'd have to like take like a week off the rest and get back to work. Hold all that weight and just start growing for a full eight month.

And I don't push food hard right now. I go like, I'll cycle my calories. If I start to get too fat, I'm like, oh, I don't pull it back down. I would just have to lean into the fat, put on a little ch... I wouldn't be fat fat, but I like being lean consistently,

lean enough so I feel good. I'd have to put on a lot of weight and just eat consistently. My training would be the exact same. It would be mainly food, a little bit more PDs, of course, but just kind of dabbling around that. I think I could do it with just food though. That'll be fucking great, man.

I would just say, it's such a shame that you can't do that. There's the 100 mile record for endurance racing, running and the 24 hour record for a while when it was still a relatively new title were often broken together. So I think it takes, I might be wrong, let's say it takes like 14 hours or 12 hours or something to get 100 and then people would just continue that pace or try and continue that pace and break the 24 Zack B Bitter, this guy from Austin, did it. He broke both records in one. It'd be so fucking cool for somebody to break through one and then go into the next place at a really great show.

I don't even think, like I said, if they let me do both in the same day, it wouldn't be good, because I'm too sucked out. That's a big weight. So I think I would look pretty small up there. What body fat do you step on stage out? You got any idea? You ever been in a Dexter?

I haven't, no. I don't even try and guess because everyone on the internet is like, ooh. You already call me Game of Thrones City was like 0% or something. I'd be like, I don't think that's possible. If I had to guess, I think it would be like four. I think it was just fucking around,

but people took it seriously. But I think I would be around four or five if I had to be conservative. And to get into the open category, you'd have to category you would be able to lose a tiny bit of condition. Yeah, a little bit. Because my structure would make up for my conditioning, I think. We'll get back to talking to Chris in one minute, but first I need to tell you about element.

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Talk to me about your morning routine. What does that look like typically? Depends on the time of year, really. Okay, so let's say off season and prep. Off season, I wake up and I usually just do a bit of light cardio. What sort of time do you typically get up? It's been brutal lately. I've been in different time zones for the last six months.

So it's just whatever time zone I'm on okay, but lately I've just been not putting on alarm And I've been waking up at about 7 38 o'clock or so lately And I normally wake up and I just do like a little bit of cardio just like 20 minutes just to make sure my appetite's going And then I have a cold plunge I usually dip my legs in there at least if not my full body and just like or up to my waist then shower eat go to work What will you tend to have off-season, what will breakfast look like? Again, it varies consistently. I get sick of food really quick, especially breakfast foods.

So I usually don't like eating eggs when I'm eating a lot of food, so I normally just make a smoothie and then I'll have like oatmeal blended into the smoothie and some like a zikiel bread, toast and almond butter. Okay, and then what about prep, which I'm guessing is significantly more dialed? Prep evolves. And like I just, I'm not trying to like, I evolve. I'm very fluid. Like my routines are like, what time you train,

depending on the time of year, like it's just wherever I feel natural, I just kind of flow into that state and do what I can. And I kind of thrive in that structure rather than really regimented. But in prep, I'll wake up in the morning and I usually will do a breathwork thing because I guess I'll do that. And it's not even for, first I tried to do it for mental

to kind of tap deep into my mind. And now it's just literally oxygenate my body before waking up in your cardio because I realized if I did a little bit of breathwork and just with a Wim Hof style, like three rounds of 30 breaths and I'll hold the sail repeat three rounds in the morning and I went and did cardio. I didn't need caffeine. I was wide awake and I could like blaster my cardio way easier and I just felt way better. And then after that I'll usually sauna or cold tub

and combine it. I'll always cold tub if I sauna because I like finishing with cold. And then cardio will be higher at that point and then I'll go shower and eat. And the goal that I do in the mornings, it's nothing crazy, like it's just simple as that, but I usually try and put my phone on airplay mode when I go to bed and not look at it until this should stand. Yeah, it's such a hack. Do you sleep? Well, if it's on app mode, it doesn't matter if I'm going to guess you sleep with your phone

outside of your bedroom as well. Um, I still usually keep it. I use that alarm still or I just have it in the corner of the room and it's on the airplane mode, but I just don't. It's basically a break until I know it gets turned off. Yeah. Are you not concerned at all? There's a lot of talk on the internet about reducing inflammation through using cold

plunge when you're trying to maximize hypertrophy? Is this something that you're not particularly worried about? I think there's a lot of, and again, I'm not the science guy, but I've looked into it too. And I never started doing it for purely recovery and hypertrophy. I started doing it because of my autoimmune and just overall systemic inflammation and health, and I just knew that it would be better for me to reduce my inflammation. And so what I looked into was it was saying that immediately after a work out when you're getting that high inflammation response, which is we're setting blood and nutrients to the

muscle to recover. That's what you want to avoid it. So I'll typically, if I do a long, like a 10 minute session, that's on my rest day. But if I'm just doing it in the morning, I do it in the morning, and then I don't work out till later in the day, and I don't do it after I work out.

So I have a full two meals, go to sleep, wake up in the morning, and I'll do it then. And I hasn't affected me at all. If anything, it's helped my joints from being overly inflamed, so I can continually train and push myself. So if I lose like 2% hypertrophy,

but my joints feel better to train harder, to me the outcome is just worth it. It's a trade-off. Yeah. What about walks and stuff? Cardio? Yeah, continuing to just get yourself moving, sunlight exposure, stuff like that.

Yeah, I think, like, do I do it or do it? Real? I definitely do it more in prep again. I definitely slack off more than I should in my offseason But I do cardio my offseason so that I can eat I usually just do a treadmill in there But when I'm in prep I'll just like roam around outside a little bit after meal just to make sure I'm digesting properly And I also to take my mind off life sometimes it just kind of relax But I'm not too like crazy methodical with these things. I just make sure everything's on point and then if my digestion ever goes to shit That's when I start manipulating things, but I'm super consistent with my food. So normally my digestion is pretty good

Tell you what's crazy if you ever want a glucose monitor Have those things on the back of your arm if you ever do that and it doesn't even need to be a particularly high carb meal But if you spike your glucose and then go on a walk, the difference is unbelievable. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It just seems to mediate insulin sensitivity so well. And there's also muscles, I think, that cross, basically, across your stomach, that when you walk that sort of contralateral movement that actually helps digestion. Okay.

So, yeah, walks after food. Stu McGill, the back pain specialist, this one guy that gave me that forever and ever and ever ago. And yeah, trying to do that. That's one advantage of living near a park, you know, or being in a house. I think I'm in Florida though. Yeah, it'll be like 110 degrees in humid. So if I'm in the afternoon, I will take a walk outside and come back, try and try and sweat. Yeah, true. It might be good for the for the calorie burn, but that's one thing I was talking to a couple of friends about that moved into this awesome new apartment complex.

One of the things that you don't see is a price that you pay is if you do want to go out for a walk, it's like five minutes. It's five minutes to get downstairs. Well, if you take the stairs, that could be part of your walk. Yeah, the stairs are kind of lame, though, aren't they? They're kind of tough.

But going downstairs is at least good for your knees, so. True. What are you doing for knee health? Are you into the knees overtose stuff at all? Have you got to do this? I've dabbled in that. Dabbled. I downloaded the app for my dad, because he has the issues.

And then I don't think he used it, so I just started using it myself. And I just took some things that I found I could put into my routine super easily, like walking backwards with a weight. And when I don't have like a sled, I'll do it on the treadmill, turned off. Yep.

I'll just turn off the treadmill, and push the tread. Yep. I'll warm up like that. I go on the stairs, walk up, it turn around, walk backwards. I have some videos you've been going backwards upstairs. Yeah. I train my like, to be a rather than just my calves too,

some band stuff, pushing many backwards. I've definitely implemented that, and it seems to be helping. Okay, so if you only had 10 exercises for the rest of time, all you have in your library to stay as muscular as possible, give me the list. So the goal is to be as muscular as possible? Correct. If I were to say I'm competing and I have 10 exercises, sure.

Alright, shit. Sorry. I'm not going to have to count it on my hands Squats why? Just overall leg growth they help glutes quads like a large portion of the leg that Bob Bell back squat barbell back squats, okay? If it's my whole life, I might actually do some mismishing squats Because I'll help my knees and a little bit it be a little bit easier. Okay, okay? That's ability and people hate me for that, but I love squatting in this machine. All right. I got a lot of shit for that.

Deadlifts, just to get something that'll target my hamstrings, and so I don't have to take out another 10, something two hamstring focus, and glute and back focus. Pull ups, so I can hit my back and biceps in one. Overhand, underhand. Neutral. Oh, neutral, gradual, probably. It's a little bit more Latin biceps in one. Overhand underhand. Neutral. Oh, neutral, gradual, probably.

It's a little bit more Latin biceps. Yep, yep. Sure, my arms are going. Inclined dumbbell press. Uh-huh. I find inclines a little bit better on your shoulders. So if you're doing this the only way I said that you can do, you won't fuck up your shoulders as much.

And dumbbell, it'll just keep you a little bit more symmetrical. I love that. I've always loved the exercise, which is weird because incline barbell press is one of the most uncomfortable for my shoulders. Really? Yeah.

Most people feel better with dumbbell because you can go in and position it around a little bit for you. Okay. How many is that? That's four. That's four. Six left. This is gonna be hard without like, I'd like have to make a list of 20 and cut out.

The autism is put to one side for now. We do this in our heads together. Dumbbell shoulder press. Uh-huh. Seated. Seated. Yeah. Dumbbell shoulder press.

Yeah, I think that'll help your triceps and shoulders a lot. Um. Maybe a close grip flat bench. Different part of the chest and chisps. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Full out. Dumbbell curl. Just so specifically.

I'm so glad that wasn't that. How do you want to live without doing it? Dumbbell curl. Doesn't even help you physique. I just need it for my mind. Exactly. Yeah. With that, are you supernated?

Again, this is the only one that you're gonna get. Are you seated? Are you standing? Standing supernated. Okay, good. Good. The OG of dumbbell co. It's the OG, yeah.

And it's gonna be one of them at a time. It can't be both arms together. It's gonna be one arm. One arm at a time, yeah. Good. Yeah, six to the basics. Good stuff. I think you've got three left.

Yeah, three left. I think we're present at the body I'm missing right now carbs probably Oh fuck yeah, the captain there. Are you dead? I'm gonna get it with anything else a little bit on a deadlift, but Maybe I'll just do stairs on the side and I'll tell you okay fine. You've still got three exercises. You only need seven so far Yeah, they say bent over row no Not that you've got that. Okay, fine. You've still got three exercises. You only need seven so far. Yeah.

Does it say bentover row? No. Bentover row. Okay. That'll help stability core as well. Uh huh. And then lower back and obviously upper back. Yeah, because the only back exercise

that you've had so far is the pull up. Deadlisten pull ups. Yeah. Bentover rows. Yeah. So I've got two left. Yeah. Probably like a hanging leg raise, just to make. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So I got two left. Yeah.

Probably like a hanging leg raise, just to make sure your core is getting hit and you're not like, fucking up your back. And then this is a tough one, I think. I'm trying to like focus on either lateral raises or like overhead tricep extension. Because I haven't had a lot of like specific triceps. I would probably do lateral raises just to get some meaty delts over. Fuck yeah.

Just to more of the flow. Well, you've got the close grip and you've got the incline press. Yeah, look at it. So interesting. So Ryan Terry, who I know that you've trained with before, I asked him the same question. And his ab exercise as well was hanging leg raises.

Where is this? Yeah, it seems to be the industry inside a fatem. I don't even know what I'm at the perfect person in that. I just I always try and work on my lower abs because it's harder for me to contract with rather than upper and that's usually

when you're stomach hangs out and on bodybuilding stage you don't want you're like gut hanging out essentially. What pulls in is the lower part when you do a hanging leg raise or like lying leg raise it hits that part more and also like hanging from a bar is really good for your shoulders and spine. So you're kind of hitting two birds with one stone. One of my friends Alex, who basically has an unlimited budget, said that he'd been

to every shoulder specialist on the planet. It's like, I've spoken to every single person, all of the most expensive specialists in the world. The best thing that I've found is hanging from a pile of fire. Yeah, it's wild. I think he does it. I think he ends up like strapping up and just hanging from that for about 90 seconds, a couple of times a day. I'd heard a rumor, I don't know whether you'd heard this, that because we'd spent so much time as primates swinging through the trees, that the way that our shoulders still articulates,

like that position is still one that's very comfortable to us. And I'm going to get torn apart by people who understand biomechanics in the comments. But this is supposed to be a little bit of truth to that. And it definitely feels nice. For sure. I mean, even if you're standing in a doorway and you just like do this, you're just chilling like you just feel better What about your future CrossFit career? So we've spoken about what you've done what you've done so far But before we started you've said that you want to take up CrossFit once you finish Yeah, I mean I just I used to be very athletic when I was young

It's really what got me into bodybuilding. I just loved sports I played like six of them when I was younger and I would like to get back to that like Form of feeling like I could run. I'm strong. I can do a lot of body weight exercises, I could train anywhere in the world and just kind of challenging my body in a new way. Because I'm obviously not going to be hitting any PRs in the gym or being heavier than I've ever been that I am in my peak bodybuilding career. They're just fighting a new goal to focus on, my dabble in that. But it's more of an athletic training that you can call CrossFit. Okay, it's so funny to think that the particular sport

that you chose to go after actually has a load of restrictions on it. Like, it's very, very consistent, very repetitive by its nature, not a team sport. You know, there's a bunch of different things that it constrains you from doing. You know, what are you way now? How heavy are you?

About 262 right now, 260. Right, you said you could dunk a year ago though. I could, yeah. I got a video of it, so I'm not lying. No wait, do you put it online? It is online, yeah. Fuck yeah. But yeah, my point being that a game of pickup,

you know, 30 minute game of pickup basketball would probably be not very good for your knees. No, I did it last year. I was telling you that, yeah, I went and played with a bunch of guys here. We played, probably played for almost an hour. It was pretty long and I could not walk for a week. Like it was just inflammation and pain.

I was just sitting there. It's so bizarre right? Because you think athlete, professional athlete, what do you do for a living? I, I, I get fitness things. Yeah. It's like people often don't call bodybuilder athletes. Yeah, but I think it's not that fitness I do.

Yeah. Yeah. And you also said that fenders are the hell. Yeah. And you also said that after your last CrossFit workout, you'd had a cough for like 10 days after. Yeah, there's a... I can't remember what they call it. It was a specific person they need in the cough. Fran cough. Fran cough, yeah.

Yeah. Did you do Fran? Is that the workout? I don't think so. Oh, okay, but you got a franca. I probably heard you. Fran cough from like a real gentle workout. Walking on the treadmill, yeah. No, I'm not that bad. Like, real gentle workout. Walking on the treadmill either. Not that bad.

Yeah, it's thinking about what people want to do once they retire, so to speak. Yeah. And the fact that you've had all of these different physical outlets that have been like, I can't do that, I do not do that. And snowboarding I can only go twice a year in case, well, if I rupture an ACL,

that's not going to be very good for my, yeah. So you are very much constrained with this. In other news, this episode is brought to you by a product I have used every single day for over three years now. That is AG1. It's a foundational nutrition supplement that covers whole body health, helps with my digestion, it helps with my energy. It is the staple to my supplement regime. And it's the same for Dr. Andrew Hiedman, Joe Rogan, Lex Friedman, Tim Ferris. All of them have been using it for a very long time, and that's because they invest in the highest quality ingredients. They've upgraded the recipe 52 times over the last decade as new researchers come in. Also, there is a 90-day money-back guarantee, so you can buy it and try it for 89 days,

and if you do not like it, they will give you your money back. If you're looking for a simpler, effective investment for your health, try AG1. Get 5 free AG1 travel packs plus a year supply vitamin D and that 90-day money back guarantee by going to drinkag1.com slash wisdom. That's drinkag1.com slash wisdom. When it comes to your training, what's with the no shoes thing? It's just part of a movement online, honestly, but I just discovered it by accident. I wore a converse my whole life up until I was like 20 years old and I started to get bunions on my foot where my toes were just angled way far out to like, outwards and then the side of my foot started to get bunions on my foot, where my toes were just angled way far out to outwards.

And then the side of my foot started to really hurt. And then I was also getting really bad knee pain. And I was like, what the fuck, so long my feet? And I realized my feet don't fit in converse. I have really wide feet. Almost like 13, like, ee, super wide. And I'm wearing the most narrow shoe you could find them. So I decided to just start taking it off and training barefoot.

I started rocking socks and birken socks, which people used to roast me for, but now it's in style. So, not cool now. But working on the gym, it just felt better. It's like, I was doing like toe exercises where I would spread my toes, I was wearing toe spacers. And then just the gym was just a place where I didn't have to wear shoes. So I could like, train and socks. And I just felt better. And over time, I didn't do a whole lot of other things.

A few other things, but my knees just started to feel better. My squats started to feel a little bit more natural. Yeah, have I seen footage of you walking on your treadmill in the morning in bath-foot shoes as well? Yeah, yeah, I've ordered, I've had like, that Vivo's, LAMS, zero, and maybe one other, but I've tried, like, all of them. What's your favorite, what have you finished on?

I'm between zeros and LAMS. LAMS are more comfortable if you're wearing, if I've tried all of them. What's your favorite, what have you finished on? I'm between zeros and lamps. Lamps are more comfortable if you're wearing if you're barefoot in them, if you're not wearing socks, which I feel like it's the point of it, so I'll be barefoot. Yeah, people are getting into this, man. Mark Bell's power project and Seymour

and all of those guys, when I went on that, everybody was in either barefoot or some crazy. Just suck so they're so ugly. Yeah, I'm a big shoe guy. I have a whole collection, but I'm just like, fuck these things, they're all like plastic and black. And just like, at least make a nice one, you know? But no one has yet.

There's an open market for that right now. How do you prioritize recovery and rest in your program? What is it that you're focusing on for the biggest winners? I mean, they're the huge avenue, but sleep is probably like the number one thing. And whether brain health, aging, or just like high performance, sleep is like one of the most important aspects anyone can have. You lose any bit of sleep in your, you soon your body just suffers more than you can even like understand. So I think being super regimens and on sleep and that's

why I like when I mean different times, I's why when I'm in different times of them, I'm not sitting on alarm. Some people believe you should create your circadian rhythm as fast as possible. I'm like, no, I'm just gonna get eight hours no matter what. Like I'm tired, I'm just gonna sleep. So I let myself just get at least eight hours of sleep. And I usually aim for nine

because I don't sleep through the whole night fully. But I think sleep has been absolutely huge. And honestly, at a point in my career when I was 21, and I started to get a bit more injuries and just like, starting to feel like a adrenal fatigue almost, I was like, I was training like six, seven days a week for like three hours. I was like, I feel like I need to tone this back a bit.

And then I started training five days a week for three hours, and then I realized I had a little bit more progress. And then a year later, I was like, that was catching up to me. So I'm like, okay, what if I trained like three days on one day off, but I'm only in the gym for like an hour and a half or two, max two hours, including warm up and stuff. And I just noticed as I was pulling away

from that kind of like volume, essentially, I actually started to progress more and feel better. I started to feel like I was like going the reverse way of aging. So allowing myself to have more time to recover actually made me stronger, which I don't even, when I say that, I try and like pre-emphasize, if you're 19 years old, don't listen to me.

You're fucking made of rubber magic. No balls for the wall. Enjoy this time right now, go deadlift, fucking max out every day, and just like, seek in these moments because they will be gone. Yes. But read your body.

When you start to feel a little tired, make sure you're taking time off. And then obviously, basic shit, like protein intake is obviously huge timing of it. I really don't think matters. I think she at least four meals in a day. So you're spreading it out. But whatever you get it and it's fine. Ice bath, sauna has helped me a lot. I do believe that stretching active recovery like doing cardio and stretching meaty lay after. So you're a little bit warm and then I do a lot of soft tissue work. So when I'm in prep, I do probably a weaker too. And that's something where you got to make sure you find someone who actually

understands the body who's good at it. And it's not meant, I'm not that you have to go to someone who's going to make it miserable, like you're crying the whole time, but they have to at least like have know what they're doing and it should hurt a little bit. They shouldn't just be trying to hurt you, but you need to find someone good because I've been through like 10 in my career and I finally just found one now, shout out to Dr. Marlin, my boy down here in Florida, he's a chiropractor, who does massage for me, and he's just so smart, he just crushes it, and it's helped me a lot. One of my friends was pushed so hard during a workout that he ended up getting a like a blood blister below his eye from the pain, from like holding it in and trying not to scream. Yeah. So, yeah, you can't, there is such a thing.

Wait, from a massage session. Yeah. Oh, wow. He was like, and then, yeah. See, that's when you're like, I felt like the, that's like the ego of the massage therapist just trying to hurt you. I think it was his ego as well

that he was like, you're not gonna make me make any noise. True. If you hold it in, it's like trying to, trying to squeeze out a really big poo. Yeah. Have I seen you in a altitude chamber? No. I'm done crying,, maybe if you've seen something, but I haven't, that's the next step though.

Hyperbaric is what I'm like, anyone else in my house, I think. Slept in one of those when I told you about those stem cells in Columbia. Have you been in one before at all? No. So the weird thing is, let's say that you want to do an hour session, it takes you about 15 or 20 minutes

to go down, right? Because they've got to pump the pressure in. And then like we're up to 14 PSI, 15, 16, 17, and you're watching this number go up. So it's like being in a rapidly climbing airplane. Do you use pop in there? Every five seconds. So you're permanently yawning for like, maybe I should. Over and over and over and over again.

And then if you want to get out, it's like, that's another 15 or 20 minutes. You're gonna bring you back down. Cause if they just opened it, I don't know what would, you'd probably just get like ripped limb from lame. I don't know what I don't wanna think about what would happen. Um, he's, I don't know, I can't really work out,

well, I did two sessions of it for an hour. I feel like you gotta do it like a lot. Yeah, I have a lot. Bill Perkins, one of my friends from Austin, was talking about how he'd read this finished study. And if people went and did three accumulated, three hours of altitude chamber stuff, pump weak, that this thing happened to their telemia length

and it reduced aging and all this stuff. But he realized that the closest facility that he could find was like three and a half hours away. So he was wasting four and a half hours of his life three times a week to try and save a little bit of time. I'm just going to die sooner. All of the time. Precisely. So it's such a false economy when it comes to that. What about bad habits? So you've spoken about all of the things that you try and get done. What are the things that you think holds you back or if you were able to get rid of them, your quality of life would improve or you would be a better athlete or a better person.

I mean, this year was the ability to say no, something that was a lot of opportunity coming my way. I said yes to way too many things and I traveled like every week for almost four months, I think, and I was barely home and I didn't even understand like how much it was impacting me until I was getting the end and I was just like on edge stressed out like didn't feel good, felt like a behind on my training where I should be and would just like snapping just didn't feel good and I'm just like I felt like I had to do these things like my business owner now rather than just like a sponsored by someone so like I feel like required to go to these events.

I had already pre-planned these like other seminars I've done or meet Greece and Europe and like different countries and meeting manufacturers in India and like all over the place. And last year I was always like, no travel, I got to focus. And this year I was just like saying yes to everything that I felt like I had to. And I was like, no, you do not fucking have to do that bullshit. Like I'm never doing that again. So one thing is definitely just speak, like being able to speak up more for myself and be like, no, I'm not doing that no matter how much I get pushed to do it because I just

have a lot of time. You're being pushed by yourself, right? Often. Yeah, exactly. No, it's like there's some external person saying, Chris, you need to go and do the whatever thing. Yeah. It's your own drive, your own desire to do all stuff.

Like we were talking about like the chasing and more and more success, but you're sacrificing your current life to have more success, but even though you're less happy with the way you're actually living your life, like what's actually the point of that? Like this is the most amazing time of my life, and I'm just trying to like run through it

and be busy all the time and not sit down and enjoy it. Or do I want to step back and maybe have less potential business success, but 98% of it's still, but also be more enjoying of this time of my youth and in the middle of my golden years. It's such an important story. If you heard about the parable of the Mexican fishermen, have you heard this? No. So it's a really cool story about someone, see if I can find it, about somebody who is, I can't indeed, parable of the Mexican fishermen. An American investment banker was at the pier of a small coastal Mexican village when a small boat with just one fisherman docked.

Inside the small boat was several large yellow fin tuna. The American complemented the Mexican on the quality of his fish, and asked how long it took to catch them. The Mexican replied only a little while. The American then asked why he didn't stay out longer and catch more fish. The Mexican said he had enough to support his family's immediate needs. The American then asked, but what do you do with the rest of your time? The Mexican fisherman said, I sleep late, fish a little, play with my children, take

sea-asters with my wife Maria, and stroll into the village each evening where I sip wine and play guitar with my amigos, I have a full and busy life. The American scoffed, I have an MBA from Harvard and can help you, you said, you should spend more time fishing and with the proceeds by a bigger boat. With the proceeds from the bigger boat you could buy several boats and eventually you would have a fleet of fishing boats. Instead of selling your catch to a middleman you could sell directly to the processor eventually opening up your own cannery. You could control the product, processing and distribution, he said, of course, you would need to leave the small coastal fishing village and move to Mexico City, then

Los Angeles, and eventually to New York, where you would run your expanding enterprise. The Mexican fisherman asked, but how long will all of this take? To which the American replied, oh, 15 to 20 years or so. But then what, asked the Mexican. The American laughed and said, well, that's the best part. When the time is right, you would announce an IPO, sell your company stock to the public, and become very rich. You would make millions. Millions?

Then what? The American said, then you could retire, move to a small coastal fishing village where you could sleep late, fish a little, play with your kids, take siestas with your wife and stroll to the village in the evening where you could sip wine and play guitar with your amigas. Life is often simpler than we make it. Yeah. So good. Yes, as with your wife and stroll to the village in the evening where you could sip wine and play guitar with your amigos. Life is often simpler than we make it. Yeah. So good.

So good. Yeah, that's so accurate. Definitely something I've, that's exactly what I felt this year. Putting more on my plate, like, and I mean that like prime time right now, especially as like a part influencer, business owner, competitor, all this stuff going on. I'm like, this is the time to stack it all on top. This is my time to do all this, but this is also like the most exciting time of my life to enjoy where I'm actually at.

Yeah. So like to be the strongest I am in that gym, which is something I fucking love to do. So why would I take away from that and just like create more stress and pressure on myself when I can just be here, just to have more in the future, which I already have enough that I need. So that's a great story for sure.

I know that you're quite health conscious about bodybuilding. Yeah. But obviously it's a very rough spot physically, psychologically, home-only. Do you have any concerns about longevity? You know, you've done an awful lot of extreme things to your body over the last decade. How worried are you about that longer term? I mean, I think if you're a bodybuilder,

you don't worry about that. You're either stupid or lying to be completely honest. So it's something I definitely, obviously, with all my own health conditions from the past, on the forefront of my brain. But I just manage it as best as I can. There's blood work you can get done consistently to keep your markers on.

There's a lot of tests. Diagnostics now are absolutely insane. And if you want to stay healthy, long-term, it's getting something, if something's going on, it's you catching it early. So I do a lot of diagnostics and blood work and make sure I'm getting healthy. And ever since I was sick in 2018,

my blood work's kind of continuously improved. So I know there's no like negative impact on putting on myself. Like I've reduced a lot of the stress and negative things I put in my body and increased more my health Like the type of food I give in me is not just calories It's actually the the quality of the food and the type of food and everything that I need that like I really focus on

Rather than just straight macros never been a macro guy And I'm even less now because I actually care about my health and all these aspects like everything I know I need when my body comes from a lot of the diagnostics I've done and vitamins and all this stuff. And I just know that I've made a agreement with myself that when these things start to falter and they start to go down no matter where I'm at my career, if I'm peaked, if I'm not peaked, if I'm about to be better, I just need to call it. I really, I know that it's not worth it to me. You know, there's a life after bodybuilding for sure who I am is not a bodybuilder.

There's more to me than that. I'll be happy without it. And there's no point in like that beautiful moment in my life is. It's already been a great time. But if I'm going to sacrifice my future life, hopefully it was a family and my children of my own. I'm going to be sick or unable to enjoy it with them. That's the biggest thing I would regret. So I just I'm sitting on top of knowing where I'm at. And if it goes down, I'm just kind of the call of quits. Yeah, I've heard you say that in the past, there was compounds and things that you would have taken that now you're like, this is too dangerous. What are the things that for you are like

off the table with regards to this is too much, this is too risky for me. The biggest one is like, tread. Yeah, the good old tread that like, there's guys who literally like base their social media off that now. It's just like a meme of the internet, the gym culture. And I don't even think people realize the impact that these jokes and memes have on like people coming up who would just see you constantly joking, talking to me. It's like you need more of it to be like, be better and feel stronger and all this shit. But that's probably the most toxic thing you can put in your body.

And I've done it in the past, but I don't anymore. I just haven't touched shit in like five years. Why? Just the toxicity it put in your body and I've done it in the past, but I don't anymore. I just haven't touched it in like five years. Why? Just the toxicity it causes in your body. Like, it just comes in, it harms your kidneys, your liver, just everything that takes your body to process it and go through it. It's just not natural. It's not meant to be in your body and it makes you strong.

It's fucking people, if you say they feel like they're on top of the world and they take it, but to me, that's not really worse than health risk anymore. And another reason why I love plastic physique is because I had a weight cap and I was close to my weight cap like three years ago, not at it, but I could have taken more shit and really tapped out and been at the point where I couldn't put on anymore weight

or I could actually take less shit and force myself to work harder, be more consistent with my diet, my training, and my recovery and then still get that result. But it would just be a little bit more effort. You know, there's a peak body, a peak open bodybuilder with no weight cap. Probably needs to do everything to be the best. But if I can just still put in discipline in the work and then take out some of the less

shit that's higher than my body, then I'm on the same point that I would be. It's just a little bit more effort. It says it all that you was somebody who is competing at the highest standard of bodybuilding on the planet is still finding compounds where you're like, that's off the table. Yeah, that's too much. For sure. You can always find things to take out,

things to add in, ways to get better, things that are like unnecessary and just kind of fine tuning. And you know, like a lot of, I mean, a lot of any type of success is getting the most out of the least in whatever effort effort the amount of work you put in in a day The amount of shit you put in your body the amount of training even you do it's just being as efficient as possible So that you're putting in you're getting maximum result from minimum effort essentially Yeah, we've spoken before and I think that it's a smart approach that you have of not talking about the things that you use and

dosages because it's just gonna result in people doing if I take X then equals Chris Bums. That'll look like Chris Bums. Precisely. Exactly. But I think that you've mentioned before people would be very surprised at how low those numbers are. I think most people in the sport can look at me and be like, okay, he doesn't made much changes in six years.

And they see me training and they see how consistent I am. So they would understand. But I think a lot of maybe aspiring kids who just want to maybe look like me or look like a pro body builder, they'd be like, no, I got to take this, but he's lying. Like I got an ending more to be like that. Why don't I look like that? And they don't see, a, my amazing genetics,

show up to my parents for that. And then b, the 10 years of work I put in that has been consistent, you know? What is the ratio of attention that you get from guys versus girls? Oh, like 90, 10. In favor of men, of course. Literally, and I think my Instagram statistics are like 91% men.

Look, yeah. Anyone who thinks that this life is going to get you girls. What does it say that like the king of the aesthetics bro era is just swimming in men. Yeah. Like there's just men everywhere and all of these guys that think I'm going to go to the gym and I'm going to if I get buffed and I'm going to get loads of attention to girls. Which also there's there's a line of respect in that, because let's say you start doing something for the attention of women, and then in the end you don't get it, but you realize how much you love it, so you keep doing it, and your bros are like, that's dope, and you're not

doing it so your bros love you, but you're doing it now because you actually love to do it rather than just getting a girl, you know. So there's like a little bit more meaning in doing it for yourself, and just because you love training. Come for the girls, stay for the games. Exactly, yeah. Yeah, yeah, but it's just so funny. Like every person that I've spoken to that's in, there's got a big platform that is built around the physique.

It's like, it's a lot of men. Every time, yeah. A lot of men out there that like, are you getting requests for sock? They simply send me your used socks, please. I used to, but I don't read my DMs anymore. Okay, I don't really go through a lot of it. Like, have a job.

No, no, I'm the only one logged into myself. He sent me the stuff I post it, but I just don't even dive into it. There's too much shit in there. There's gonna be, it's a cesspool down there, Chris. There's all these groups now, and it's just like memes and tags, and like, it's not even like anyone actually saying it.

What do you mean? Like, people will start a group with like, all their boys, tags and like, it's not even like anyone actually saying it. What do you mean? Like people will start a group with like all their boys and then like lifting club and it will be you and your friends from high school and then there's just throw Chris Mom said in there cause it's funny. Maybe you'll see it one day. And I have like hundreds of those.

And that's all I really, and they're not even messaging me, they're messaging each other and I'm just in the chat. So I like, I have like every couple months I'll like go and I'm like board waiting. Someone I like look and I'm like bored waiting. Someone I like looking. I'm like, nope. I just closed it.

I just got nothing in there. Yeah. Fuck. Yeah. What? Talking about social media in the social media game, something that you guys like pay attention to, to continue to build. How have you dealt with the increasing amount of notoriety and pressure

and eyes on you and stuff as somebody that's pretty heavily introverted and wants their privacy? You've had to make a public relationship with misses, business, the most stressful times of your sporting career and stuff as well. Yeah. How does that feel? Like how have you struggled with that and how's it helped you to grow? I think honestly, unlike most in that position, it's impacted me less than a lot of other shit. My life has impacted me. I think I was just raised purely for like valuing people who know who you are and who

they like who you are as a man and how you like act in this world rather than what you accomplish and what you own and all these things. And all these people don't know who I am. So even from a young age, I literally remember thinking like all these compliments I'm getting these people don't even know who I am. These people don't even like they can say whatever they want about me, but it's just this idea of me they're talking about not actually me. So the compliments, well I'm grateful for it and the support and it means a lot to me. They don't know who I am. It doesn't make me better or worse whatever they say. So when negativity comes in and people say anything bad, it's, it's, they're both one and the same. They're both just kind of like out there and it doesn't really mean anything. You know, if like my mom came up to me and about you're being a really fucking shitty person, I'd be like, what the fuck? Like, I would like,

my heart would think I, you know, I'd be like, what the fuck? Like I would like, my heart would think, you know, I'd change my whole life. But like if someone on the street comes up and be like, you're this that, I'm like, you don't even know me. Yeah, like what? But how do you, you know, that your mind isn't actually going to gravitate toward these meaner comments,

we have this negativity bias that we see. Yeah. How have you trained yourself, do you not look? Is there a strategy behind this for how you try and avoid that seeping in? I imagine if you're three weeks out from prep with everything in the toilet and you feel like crap and you've got 1500 calories to look forward to today, half a witches from broccoli. The last thing that you want to see is someone saying something mean on the internet. So where do you go to deal with that? I mean, it's been, there's a lot of things

and it's been a tradition, but now at this point, when I'm in prep, I mute everything. All notifications are off. I don't look at my comments. I don't really look at anything. And I would just rather that not seep into me. On a baseline, I can always bring myself back to like what I said understanding these people don't know me,

but I'm obviously still affected by certain things that hit me. But again, if something affects me, it's because of something I have on healed inside of myself. It comes back to like where I'm still hurting, not so much what other people are, what they're thinking of me.

So like, an example of something that hit me a few years ago, but it was, it wasn't online. It was someone in person and they were just fucking around with me. We were bantering, we where guys were like, you know We give each other shit and he said something like oh, wow when you were a kid like girls must have been like here Just good looking tall jacked handsome guy come up to him and you open your mouth and they hear you your voice in that list And they're like what the fuck and they're immediately they're like this fuck this guy and they leave you alone

And I remember like feeling like a kid again just getting this washed over embarrassment And just like feeling like fucking like 12 years, 15 years old again. And I was like, wow, like I'm like, I just can be tease a little bit for my list. And I'm like, that's still kind of in there a little bit. But that's not because this guy is an asshole. That's because when I was a kid,

someone made me feel like shit about it. And I never really like gave that kid like the love and permission, myself being that kid, the love and permission to be okay with that and understanding that doesn't represent himself. So I think just taking those moments and using them as an opportunity to go inside yourself and kind of like a give your like the younger self a little bit of love and compassion who like didn't get it maybe when he was younger because he felt like alone. You know, to go back and try and heals with periods of your life,

rather than being angry at the other person. Because, I mean, that's really all that has to do it because if you're given the power of the person, then you're just focusing on them and you're gonna continuously live in that pain, doesn't help you and they don't go fuck, they're just running shit at you, they don't care what they want you to react.

It's hard to not have a chip on your shoulder because of that though, right? Like how have you managed to get rid of that wanting to prove these people wrong and you know you've seen the ways that people who were mistreated or felt lonely when they were younger that can become malignant, right, as they grow up. Have you, is there something, does a chip appear on your shoulder every so often that you want to kind of? I was, I was never, like there's two people who get affected by it in different ways. And I was never the one who got angry in like the chip on my shoulder.

I kind of like felt shitty about myself. I felt embarrassed and like, yeah, you're right. I am fucking stupid. I do sound stupid when I talk. I should just shut up and sit over here in the quiet. I was more like, and it never led to aggression in me or like a chip on my shoulder. It was more of a like, you're right, you are kind of worse. Let's just go stand over there

So that was more of like that's why when I say what I needed to work on was more empathy and compassion for myself And just like accepting my humanity my imperfection rather than like I mean, it's all the same thing But mine was more focused on like not Shaming myself rather than like bringing down a level of aggression and anger. Tell you what I absolutely love about that is you saying I was made to feel shitty, lonely, sort of worthless at some point throughout childhood, and your answer to it isn't to lean into aggression and to push back against it, but to find empathy. But to find empathy that you turn inward. I think that's just so noble. So I've told this story before, but I was doing a big podcast last year.

And my strategy, typically, when I'm doing the big episodes is that I'll stay fasted. I end up being quicker, mentally. And I didn't realize how long this episode was going to go on for. Partway through, I went high. So I'm sat there, and my mind goes completely blank, like just fucking nothing. I'm like, what's going on? I'm sat opposite, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, just hearing something happen, like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,

and I'm thinking to myself, why don't you have anything to say? Like, what's just, it was like, it would literally like someone shook the etch of sketch inside of my brain. It's like fuck There's nothing there's nothing left like I there's nothing for me to To say and then immediately this voice came up that said you're not supposed to be here You were never supposed to be here everyone's laughing at you everyone thinks that you're stupid. You knew that this was a fluke Everybody isn't interested in what you've got to say this is your chance and you're blowing it

You're an idiot. And I was like, whoa, where the fuck has that voice come from? Yeah. And I realized it was a voice that I remember from my childhood. But it was one that I thought I'd know a D-programmed or whatever. But after, in times of really serious stress, I think old wounds and old habits and old traumas like reappear and that was really, really high pressure.

Anyway, I ended up having some coffee and this, this caffeine just ripped me out of it and everything was fine. The funniest thing was that if you actually listen back to the episode, you can't even tell. There's just an autopilot voice that's moving while internally and no one would know. Nobody in the entire world. They still were able to respond and go in and go in. I had a perfectly cogent conversation. Wow, that's a big deal.

Well, yeah, you do anything long enough and then you become competent at it. But yeah, my entire mind was saying, you're a piece of shit, you're worthless, everyone's laughing at you, you're stupid. You know that this was a fluke, you're not supposed to be here. You're never supposed to be here. Meanwhile, I'm having a conversation.

Yeah, I'm not the a conversation. I get to say anything. But yeah, the issue with that is it's not like the whole point is like when you felt that it isn't like, if it was then that's becomes another problem. So you're beating yourself up and then it's a problem that you're beating yourself up. It's just like a contingent is what loop of like this like battle you're having yourself. But if you don't even think that you're forgetting and beating yourself up with a problem, it's just part of like what happens in the human experience, then there's nothing to fix in it.

So it just like shifts back to normal. Yeah, I think feeling shame about the things that you feel is really, really, really destructive. And I know that I felt this for a long time that I should be more disciplined, I should be more competent, I should be more diligent, I every single mistake that I make, I stumble over this particular,

I'm supposed to not hit snooze on the morning and I hit snooze or I check my phone really quickly before I go for a walk on the morning and that means I'm fundamentally a piece of shit or this means I'm at least like, there's an awareness, there's like a alert radar and I'm permanently looking for reasons to justify that I might be a piece of shit. I'm just constantly seeking like a threat detector, but it's not, it's a shit detector and I'm permanently looking for reasons to justify it to myself.

And that was for a long time and this is, you know, I'm such a massive fan of personal development and of personal growth and of people improving themselves. But as soon as you posit an ideal, you then begin to compare yourself to that ideal. And that creates a pain between where you are and where you want to be. And, you know, I'm all for trying to maximize your agency, make as much of the time that you have on this planet as you can, and balancing that desire to be better with acceptance, love, empathy for yourself, and the ability to just be grateful and present in the moment. I think fundamentally, for a lot of driven people, that is the battle. I think those are the two things that they're fighting with, that tension.

And it's, I mean, it's work. It's like constant work. And like, I still have things that come up with me that are similar to that. Like, even in this conversation, honestly, when you ask you about my morning routine, I'm like, fucking Mr. Olympian, you only have a morning routine. Like, you should be more structured in the morning. And then I'll be like, what the fuck? Like, you are Mr. Olympian and you don't have a morning routine period. I don't need to fucking shame myself after that. I'm Mr. Olympian more structured in the morning. And then I'll be like, what the fuck? Like you are Mr. LeBier and you don't have a morning routine period. I don't need to fucking shame myself after that.

I'm Mr. LeBier and I have a morning period. And I can just leave it at that. And I also just recently discovered this like battle in myself, which I kind of mentioned of this expectation that was on me, which like I kind of labeled as Seabum. Some people call me Seabum. They don't know who I am and then there's Christopher. Yes.

There's like that 12 year old Christopher who's just like, you know, he's emotional, he's anxious, he's stressed out, but he's quiet, and he's, he's just who he is. And then Sebum is fucking confident, calm, cool, collected, can step on sage, grab a mic, give a motivational speech, crush Olympia, squat 600 pounds, you know, he's like the dream. And then that person doesn't exist. But when people continuously call me Sebum, treat me like that, look up to me like that. That's what builds this like disconnection myself. And I need to continuously discover who Chris is, who Christopher is, go back who he was, who he is now, and like all these aspects of myself that are just me, and let that continuously

shine through. But I think as like you adapted when you were young, I've adapted when we were young, we create this thing that fits better into society rather than just being ourselves. Because we want to fit in, we want to succeed, we want to be the ideal that we hear. And there was this, I think it's Brunei Brown, she talks about it. She's a vulnerability specialist, I'm sure you know who she is. She said this thing where is if you show up in a crowd and your goal is to fit in, then you're putting yourself worth on the line. But if you show up in your goal as just to be yourself,

then you can't fail and yourself worth it's at the end of the day. If you just act like yourself, everybody can do that, and then you leave feeling good about yourself, because you have control over that. But if you're showing up and you're just doing and being anything, just to be fit into the crowd and you don't fit in and you're not even being yourself, then who the fuck are you? You know your worthless.

So it's a lot easier to just show up and make the goal to be seen rather than to be accepted, and you don't fit in and you're not even being yourself, then who the fuck are you, you know, you're worthless. So it's a lot easier to just show up, and make the goal to be seen rather than to be accepted, because that's who you are and it's in your control. There's a problem as well that I found, especially in my 20s, so as this sort of big name on campus club promoter for 15 years right now,

with the massive events company, meet millions of people, and the guy that's really well known on the front door of nightclubs, etc etc etc and I never felt love for the achievements that I had during that and I think a big part was because I was playing a persona And I came to believe this is an Aubrey Marcus thing. I know you're a fan of his as well He says the persona is incapable of receiving love. It can only receive praise.

The reason is that if you're not genuinely ex-essentialy connected from your heart to the things that you're doing, any praise that you get isn't going to actually impact you emotionally because you're not emotionally connected. You're cognitively connected. You go over here and you can get the praise, but you're not really well.

Yes, so seebum. Congratulations, seebum. You did really well. Christopher, meanwhile, is still a worthless piece of shit for 12 years. That's a lot of oil. I've locked in the closet just back there watching seebum. Precisely correct. And you know, it goes back to the parable of the Mexican fishermen thing, like what are you optimizing for with regards to success? Do you want to make it to the end of your life with all of the public accolades that anybody could want Feeling completely unfulfilled internally And alone lost or

Do you want to dial back what you do in the real world so that it actually matches up with who you are and move both of those people forward and You know, it's that's why I think that you're a really great champion for the introvert, it inquire in a world of guys that get rich off egos and being loud and sort of out there. And you know, Andrew Tate, like, fantastic speaker, great communicator, but very different sort of person to you. For. Yeah, and yet Both role models for men Both people that are very highly followed online both people who you know embody masculinity and incredibly different ways but

I think it's very important that we have a counterbalance for the Sort of introverted quiet kids hard because like you said social media is like targeted towards the extroverted loud Controversial the people who are like the Andrew Tate who are just going out there like Captures people's attention people like me like I always joke about it I'm always like when I'm down. I'm gonna move to the mountains no cell phone service I was gonna have my address. You'll never find me, you know people like me want to go hide You know people like Andrew like where's a spotlight spotlight I got you to say, you know? And it's hard to balance that.

And I've also learned that I'm actually less introverted than I even thought it was. I was just more like afraid to show myself essentially. So it was easier just to kind of hide in the background. When I start to feel comfortable and be myself and I'm like, out there, I'm like, I actually kind of enjoy this. More than I realize, as long as I'm showing myself truly and I'm not feeling like

I need to put on this facade. That's the persona thing again, right? Exactly. If you start to play that, I actually think that it, even though publicly, you may be more competent because you have created this mirage out in front of the person who's lost and alone and insecure It actually makes going out and doing it more and more difficult and this is how you see you know guys like Avicci the DJ As a good example somebody who Publicly was having to do something that privately he didn't feel

Alignment with and they end up in really bad situations. Yeah Given obviously you are a role model for men, mentioned Andrew Tate, they're also another role model for men. How much do you interact? How much do you think about sort of the state of modern masculinity at the moment and the challenges that young men are facing? I've recently started to think about it a lot more. I think it's been surfacing more. And it's a weird balance because people like people like Andrew Taylor saying like we need more masculine We need more aggression. We need like x y and z and I think there's That's agree with that on one level for like a little bit

But there's also a section of men who just feel alone like myself who felt like they have to hold things in the That they shouldn't share their emotions that they don't lean on people and that they should just carry stuff in and they need to be X Y and Z to be like good enough. So there's just like balance of that. And you almost need to learn to again, like I mentioned, like that, the masculine and the feminine to be able to integrate that. I feel like a real man is confident and comfortable enough to embrace the feminine energy he has in him. If he's emotional, let it out, but also have that masculine side of it. Be like, I'm going to be emotional right now, but I'm still going to go and fuck straight up right now, you know. I'm still going to take charge of what I want with my life. I'm going to work masculine side of it be like, I'm gonna be emotional right now, but I'm still gonna go and fuck straight up right now, you know?

I'm still gonna take charge of what I want with my life. I'm gonna work fucking hard to be disciplined, but I'm gonna accept that sometimes I'm gonna break down. And it's gonna be, I'm not saying that women break down, but there's more emotion over there and allow it to feel it and to ask for help and to lean on people and be able to balance those two and that like, Yin and Yang, I think that's what's missing

personally. And I do like, on one level, I do feel a sense of responsibility, because the fitness is a big world of men who are, I think usually get into fitness on some level, maybe feeling lost, and then it can feel a little bit safe. And I heard a lot of people be like, I can go in the gym and just forget about everything. I'm like, that's great.

The gym's an amazing tool for that. But you still need to go back and feel that shit eventually, because it's not going away. A good workout doesn't make the stress at home better now. It's still just buried under that fucking dopamine Russian sick pump you got in your chest, you know? It's still there. So I think just learning to navigate and endowance that is super important. And that's where I'm like, okay, I'm someone right now where people look up to. On one level, there's a responsibility for me. Let's take my 12 year old self who felt like he had to hold it all together.

He couldn't lean on anyone. He couldn't ask for help. And I just remembered this time I was in the hospital a few years ago. And I didn't tell my parents. I didn't want to tell them that I didn't want them to be stressed and anxious. And then they found out and I was like, it's okay. Like, don't come. I'm totally fine.

Like they wrote a town or we live in different cities. And I like, don't even bother coming out of here to know time is okay. And I thought about that and I broke down crying again. I was like, why didn't I ask for help? I felt so scared and alone. And just to have my mom sitting beside me, I'm a man, I'm 20 years old at the time.

It would have felt better, but why am I so scared to ask for help? You know, like, if- Why do you think you ask her to ask about? Part of my childhood of just feeling like, A.S. on my dad, who didn't really need help, my mom was busy. They were both super busy with work

and they gave me everything that they could, but they came from families who didn't know how to show them kind of love and support and they came from, so there's all these generations of this pain who don't know how to express themselves. And then I think honestly, my parents jumped about tenderness and worse of progress, of who they are and how they showed me love

and vulnerability as much as they could, but they're still stuff missing. And now I would like to jump a few generations as well and hopefully help my kids, but there's always a gap of where the kid where we're gonna miss something. And I think a lot of that does come from my childhood. And so when I get in situations like that,

I'm afraid to ask for help. And now I look back and I'm just like, if I had just started crying, I'd be like, I need you, mom. Like I would have felt so much better. But I had to be like, no, I'm okay. Don't even come. I'm good.

I'm sitting this hospital by myself and I'm sick at the wall and just tried not to think about dying, you know? Like that's fucking insane. I don't know why I did that. Well, what would you say? Okay, so you know, there's a lot of guys listening who say that that resonated with me. I feel like I struggled to open up like I find it hard to embrace the fears and the insecurities

and stuff that I have. What have you found as a good first step or as the first steps that's good for those guys to take to move forward? It's definitely tough and it's depending on the situation in your life and this is kind of where I was getting at is like hopefully myself. If I think of who I would have wanted to be the role model to that 12 real boy, that's who I should be in this world to anyone who is looking up to me now. So I hope that some people like me who express this stuff can at least give permission for people to start that journey. So if I have that, if I have that impact on anyone and I've had people come up to me and like a

Q&A's and shit like I want to ask you this, but like I'm fucking going like tell me some crazy story around about the cry listening to them and they're coming to share it with me and I'm like fuck man, like that's that's deep. You need some like these people to lean on and they're like I don't know what to do. So my advice while those people would be to understand that hopefully you have someone in your life who loves you and if they love you, they want to help you. They might not know how to ask you because they weren't given that help.

So sometimes you have to put yourself out there and be like, and just open yourself up to them and allow them to see deep inside you because not everyone can read your mind and like dive deep into your school just because you're like, you have a different look on your face today or something. So, if you have people you love lean into them. And if you really don't feel safe with anyone in your life, that's scary. And I'm like, I feel horrible for anyone who feels that alone, but find a therapist or something. I initially,

I did have people I could lean on and love them my life, but I went to a therapist before even them. And back in 2020, when I told you that thing, I don't really want to, I can't talk about that. It was really hard on me. I buried all that and then I went to a therapist and started talking to them. And I thought I'd never be able to open up to someone, some stranger. I don't know. For a session, fucking crying on the couch.

And I was like, holy shit, there's a lot of stuff inside of me right now. And so much of my journey for the last five years, I've been understanding how much stuff I've suppressed and didn't know what was there and allowed to come up. And the amount of like the how light my heart feels and how light my body feels when I kind of get some of that out, it just helped me so much. You can tell him, you can really tell that you feel more sort of aligned with it. Yeah, I just feel good with myself overall. And I know like I said earlier, got emotional just thinking about like the people I've had in

my life. And now it was Courtney, the amount our relationship has built over this span of time of me being able to bring myself out more and share with her. Or like we were engaged and now I'm like, I don't fucking even know what a ring is, but I'm going to fucking die with this girl by my side because nothing's going to tear us apart. Like I just we built that connection through that trust. Remembering what you said about don't necessarily expect people to be able to pick up on the fact that your face looks a bit different today.

Yeah. She had to ask you four times in the bathroom. Yeah, and I was lucky as hell that she's such an empath of type of human, she's super emotional and she was able to see me, but if not, who knows if I would have shared that over there? Yeah, either empath or unrelenting. Perhaps.

But about. Keep on asking. Keep on asking. Keep on poking. Yeah. I really do think that this tension, we talked about this sort of tension between a desire for success and a feeling of being enough, between wanting

to be strong and competent and also being able to integrate the emotions that you have. It is all so individual and the point is that trying to take any philosophy, any one philosophy from someone and saying, I am going to take the Andri take, or I'm going to take the Chris Bums' stator, I'm going to take the Chris Williams' approach to this sort of a thing. Fundamentally doesn't work because the drivers that you have are completely different. And I think that the only thing which really does scale

is, okay, try and find out what's true in you. Try and find out how you actually feel about these things. I have a friend who's staying in Austin at the moment, Gakal George. And when anybody asks him about his childhood, and everyone's supposed to have got like shit from their childhood He has nothing. He has absolutely nothing like is my childhood is fantastic

Do you ever get bullied? No, I had a good friends and I have no baggage. I have no trauma. I have no nothing So for him the solution is completely different. Yeah, solution is completely different to the one that it is for maybe me or you and Yeah, I think they're still a potential that he's looking back with rose colored glasses. Oh yeah. And that he just kind of pushed a few small things aside. And now some stuff might make him trivial trigger during secure embarrass and he just like, oh, it's normal. Just kind of push it over and move on, but he doesn't even see it. I'm not saying that's true. It might be. But it's possible. If he breaks down crying this weekend, the do you go home and poke him like, are you good? Are you good? Yeah. Five times. Yeah. Five times. I do think a little breaking that stigma

that like both can coexist in an alpha male too, from it. You know, like you can be this fucking killer who cries. You know, like you can. And I mean, I'm not a deep religious person, but you look at someone like Jesus Christ. The night before he got crucified, the Bible says he was weeping. You know, he was scared.

When he was carrying the cross, he was stumbling. He was falling. He had to have people help him. Like, this is the epitome of the archetypal, like, human. You know, when he struggled, he cried, he was scared, and he was sacrificed for everyone. Like, that's a story that is old as time that was equally showing that. But you don't think Jesus was a fucking badass motherfucker. Like, I think he probably was, you know, so I think there's an ability to intertwine that and sometimes people come out of the woodworks like Andrew Tate who are just so far one way.

Like this is being a man. And then there's people who are too far the other way who are like you need to be sensitive and cry and who cares about winning and all this shit. And it's like no, like I wanna be the best version of myself and that's my biggest goal, but underneath that, I wanna fucking win. I wanna fucking embarrass everybody on stage,

but when I don't, I'm not any less of a man. I'm still just as, like, I still value myself, I'm just as worthy of a human being, but that's just, I still want to fucking fuck shit up over there, you know? To me, I want to intertwine that and just believe that they can coexist. I think it's something just super important

to set off on that journey. You are, the first thing I asked you was about pressure is a privilege, and you mentioned that it was like are the first thing I asked you was about pressure as a privilege. And you mentioned that it was just a thing that you came up with and then you almost retrofitted the idea around it. The same thing goes for champion mentality. You come up with a thing. I have a friend, Mary, and she says, meme first, meme first explain later.

And I think that it's really, really important that you have concepts that can be quite easily summarized, the parable of the Mexican fishermen. Everybody knows what that is. Everyone knows that story, they know what they take away. One of the problems that you have with a meme first explain later philosophy is that you optimize for ideas that are very simple and unidimensional. Holding two opposing thoughts in your mind at the same time is the most difficult thing that you can do in 2023. I want to be strong and powerful but open and vulnerable. These two things you have to be just one or the other.

That's the only bandwidth that the internet has and some of the ways that people are rewarded for content online causes them to simplify down theories and philosophies to the point where you lose the nuance and the nuance is really what's important. And it actually causes cultural memes to propagate that are nowhere near as sophisticated as they should be. If any one concept can be explained in a single sentence, it's probably not sufficiently complex. For sure. I think the biggest tool that they come up with, those parables or quotes or whatever have come with me, was just giving me a reason to self reflect. So when I hear like a quote or like a story or something, I've said in the past that really

like, I'm like, fuck that kind of like hits me. I'll like write it down and I'll continuously go back and kind of rethink what it means to me. You know, and I think we all need to learn how to really think for ourselves. So when you listen to someone like we keep on matching and you take it, you brought them up. When he goes on this, I listened to part of his huge podcast and there's all this shit. I'm like, fuck, like this dude smart.

I'm fired up. Like this is all makes sense. And he said something and I'm like, I don't agree with that. I'm like, I don't for myself. That's if it works for him. Okay. But like, I don't. So I don't have to agree with everything he's saying.

But I have to be smart enough to be able to think for myself, to take pieces of both sides and understand that much as politics wants to lean right or left, that like, it's somewhere in the middle at the end of the day. And you have to, like you said, you have to find your own way, some level. You have to, it's constant reflection of finding who you are, and finding it where you fit in all this and how it integrates into you, not just because person X does it like this, but because you do it the best way you do it, and you have to learn through mistakes and through practice and reflection and life and triumph and pairing and all the show, you know?

Well, when you have someone that gets a platform, any platform, they are usually a specialist in one particular area, or the particular one, good at one particular thing. The problem is that they then, because social media is ubiquitous, 24.7, they're then asked their opinion on other things. Like, I will quite happily take your advice

on a good push per leg split. But to be frank, I don't care what you think about the Ukraine conflict. Do you know what it means? I'm not going to give a part of this. Yes, but there are a lot of people who who we've got the opportunity to have this platform. So, what do you think about the COVID Wuhan lab leak hypothesis? And what do you think about the situation that we've got going on with Russia and blah, blah, blah. I think staying in your lane in that

regard is a good idea. And even that, you know, coming from someone that does have a platform, even that's tempting. Oh, right. Maybe I could become the, what if I was the Ukraine guy as well. I have a friend Douglas Murray and he said, somebody asked him why he hadn't commented very much on the COVID situation. It's like back end of 2021 or start 2022. We've been through this two year.

I mean, in the same thing and he writes four or five columns a week and it's a big, big deal. New Bailey comments on it. Yeah, and he said, I'm going to do something which is very rare in the modern world, which is to not say anything about something which I know nothing about. Imagine that.

Fucking brilliant. Yeah. So one of the things that we've spoken about today, common theme has been an investigation into your own mind, introspective, retrospective, doing that roominative work. Have you ever had any interest in psychedelics? Yes. Have you taken any?

I haven't. I'm so tempted though. Yeah. I'm like constantly like, I want to go to Peru, do I wasca? Like, I want the journey to hit me with it. I just, I mean, there's still a part of me. That's like a little bit afraid.

You know, you hear all the, like this, I do believe what people say when, like one of the common fears is like, you're not gonna want anything that's currently in your life. And then the contrary to that is like, well, it's because of the things that were meant to be in your life. And I do believe that, but I also love my life right now. And I don't really think I need that much of a change,

and I'm slowly mentally growing, and becoming more true to myself and happy, and I don't really wanna fuck with that. But the shrooms side of things, I'm sure I'll dabble eventually. Yeah, I just haven't gotten there yet. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I would.

I would. So mushrooms, yeah, but nothing, I haven't tried LSD, I haven't tried Iowasca. I mean, Austin, which is the psychedelic capital of America. And yeah, a lot of people go down to Saltara. I think it's called a lot of the guys fly down there. I want to say that that's maybe in Peru. It sounds fantastic.

I mean, actually the process doesn't sound that nice up until the point in which you're in it. But yeah, there's definitely fear, I think, and apprehension around, okay, what's this going to bring up? You know, especially if you've done some work and you realize that there's depths to trauma and you think, wow, fuck, there is some stuff that came up that one time when I was on a podcast and you go, okay, what if I think I've relieved all of the pressure that was tamping down that and it's not. Yes, fuck it.

Have you touched it? Yeah, I'm the iceberg. Yeah, it's scary. I mean, that's part of the, I mean, the fear of even self-reflection. Yeah. It's a baby version of just like uncovering what's inside you that you've been suppressing forever, like what's deep inside Chris? Yeah. Other, other Chris, you know, send in a, like what's deep inside Chris? Yeah.

Other other Chris, you know, send in a, it can all pour out, and you know, I do what you're gonna do. I saw you post about the difference between seeing a dream as a fantasy and seeing it as an objective. That you guys have been playing around with words and definitions and how important they were.

Yeah. What is that difference? What's the difference between seeing a dream as a fantasy and a dream as an objective? I was kind of just reflecting on, I think a lot about language too, and I try and correct the way I say things and people call me out for it now on my YouTube and it helps me a lot. And I just think there's a lot of power and words, it reflects a lot, but it's not so much of the word, but it's each individual's perception of that word. And it was just more of a thought because we made this, I said this thing like dream with

intent. And it was just like, what does a dream mean? Like anyone can ask you a question and you're like, what's your definition of this word in that question? And it could be completely different. So if I say dream, somebody could be like, well, I'm fantasizing about this. But in their mind, they're like someone who works nine to five and they're fantasizing of their dream job that they know they're going to never get to do just a dream.

And then there's a type of person who hears dream and it's like, well, it's the same, it's the synonymous with goal. It's just an objective I'm going to get. It's just my top line objective. And I think even just like starting something and be like, this is my dream. And if that means that to you, great, but maybe just wish that were to this is my goal. This is my objective. This is what I'm chasing after.

So you're actually committing a plan of action to yourself rather than just some like fantasy that you have in your sleep. One of the best things I heard about this was a lot of people are worried about giving up what they have now for what is going to happen in future, especially it comes to do with work, right? That you have a job which is, okay, it's not great, but it's not that bad.

And you end up realizing, are you succeeding at a job that you hate? Yes. Imagine how well you would succeed at a job that you loved. Yeah. And it's crazy, it's crazy to think that, I think 85% of Americans say that they are either actively unengaged or not engaged with

the work. It's only 15% of people that say I am actively engaged with my work. So you have 85% of people that are basically ambivalent or like outright negative about the thing that they spend 40 hours a week doing. And not everybody can just upsticks and decide to pivot and go and do different stuff, but that's the point that everybody faces that same level of difficulty and that when it becomes tough or you're uncertain or whatever, everybody else faces that as well. So it's almost like when you're deep in a diet and your body is pushing you to try and eat more food, but

you're stopping it from eating more food, yeah, that's not an enjoyable feeling, but it is the sign that progress is being made. And it's the same thing as when a lot of guys message me and ask about, I don't necessarily have the support system around me that I wish that I did to be able to do the things that I want to. I live in the northwest of England, and I love reading philosophy or psychology and learning about human nature, but all of my friends are rugby players

and all they want to do is go out and drink every weekend. And I'm used to be like that, and maybe now I'm not, and I'm starting to feel discontinuity and discord and friction between me and a life that I used to live and the life that I live now and where I want to go. How can I deal with the fact that this is painful for me? And the answer is the fact that it is painful is the reason that it's working. If it wasn't you stepping out everybody else that has to try and step out into this new life faces this same thing to every single person does, That's why most people don't do it.

Like this is what hard feels like and this is why most people don't win. So continuing to push through and almost seeing that level of discomfort as a signal, it's like a way marker that's been planted in the ground. Yes, more this way. Because if it was all just super easy, well, how are you going to get anything different to what everybody else has got? If you do the same thing that everybody else does, and one of the best selectors for people not doing a thing is discomfort. So the route that has a lot of discomfort down it, usually on the other side of that ends up with something which is valuable. Usually. If you know where your progress is going,

like to build on that way, you were talking about like the progress part, a lot of results, kills a lot of people, like what are you progressing towards? People who sit in their jobs and they feel like there's no value, it's not contributing to themselves or the world, or really it's just there for a paycheck. That, and it feels like tough, like uncomfortable,

though there's just, you know, you're just miserable with it. But at least your friend, if he's chasing after something that's like a dream of his or a passion that he's tracing towards and his progress has come from well at least at the end of that line, it's what he wants. You know, and that leads to obviously like a lot of people ask me, how do you say so? Like you mentioned discipline, when you're at the point, you want to eat and you want to diet, I'm like, well, I love what I do.

At the baseline, I'm passionate about what I'm doing and I love that what the goal will be. I love the part of it. I love the impact it has on others that help people in my life and myself. So at the end, that's just there's a reason there's a purpose behind it rather than just mindlessly circling the hamster wheel. Yeah, one of my friends, Chris Sparks has this idea called there is no growth without goals. And what he means is that the James Clearytonic Habits idea of, you know, just focus on daily

routines and you don't need to be outcome focused, you just need to be iteration focused, just do one day, do one day, do one day. But that only works if it is in service of a greater thing. Yes. You are going to not rise to the level of your goals, you are going to fall to the level of your systems, but your systems need to be moving you in the right direction. Because if you end up realizing, oh, I've been doing all of this stuff day after day after day, and the destination it's taken me to is something that I wasn't even really that bothered about. That this happens all the time. People that think all I need to do is continue to grow the business. One day after the next, I'm going to turn up on time, I'm going to work hard, I'm going to do

the rest of the thing. And in 20 years, they they look back and go I didn't want a big business Don't be scared. Yeah, I can do anything with all this money now I spent all of this time climbing up a ladder to realize that it's up against the wrong wall. Yeah So yeah, there can be no growth without goals, and I think that it's important But also being to outcome focus again Holding two conflicting thoughts in your mind at the same time. Yes, it's difficult, it's difficult, but it's important. And even that, even in this that we're talking about, the fact that it's hard to hold two different thoughts in your mind at one time is the exact thing that separates you out from the rest of the

crowd, because that's what most people do. Most people struggle to do, hold those things. So if you can do it, that's also another selector. But yes, I wasca, I would love to see you do it. I wonder what sort of size dose they would need to give you. I bet they're going to have to give you a big boy dose. I don't know. I feel like I'm, I could still be a lightweight. Yeah.

I don't know if it's any new or different. When are you going to stop? When are you going to be done? When are you going to stop? The million dollar question right now. The last few years I've been getting asked out a lot. I think I could I went through a tough period at one point where I wasn't thriving in bodybuilding and I wasn't enjoying it too much.

And I think I almost like hinted at my energy that this wasn't like going to be forever and people like he's going to retire. So now I get that question all the time. But since integrating myself more into this like I was speaking about the sea bummer's crisps for being myself more, allowing myself to feel the stress sometimes makes me more excited about the good parts and feel all the joy rather than just numbing stuff out. It's actually made it a lot more fun. Overall I'm a lot more excited every year now and I look forward to it.

So every year now I'm like, excited to keep going to be better. And I've always told myself, again, I tell myself these things, if I come to the point where I'm not excited, where I'm not like looking forward to like pushing myself and going past with limits again, and I'm like, oh, like, fuck, like, I have those days, but I mean consistent, like, that's how I truly feel about it, that I need to pull it. Because I don't think without that, like, love and drive and passion, that I'm going to be able to push my bodies the limits of where I'm actually capable of being my best self. And I don't want to compete to win another title. I don't want to look worse than win a title.

I want to know that I'm progressing and I'm like beating what I looked like last year, which how fucking miserable it was to get down to that body fat, and to keep that muscle on me and to train like that and do all that. I want to know I can beat that this year. That's part of what excites me even more than the trophy does. So as soon as I lose that fire, I gotta tell myself I'm tapping out and I'm ready for the next part of life. But I'm truly taking it year by year. And it's something like a bit of a political answer. But I honestly, I look to the next year and I'm like, if I finish this year and

I'm like, Buckyllis, do it again, then I'll do it again. But if I'm like, nope, this isn't it for me. Like over a set of period of time, I truly my heart. I'm done. Then I'm going to check out, but I really, I can't predict the future. Like, over a set of period of time, I truly my heart, I'm done, then I'm gonna check out, but I really, I can't predict the future. Again, my health comes into it. My health is a deteriorate that I'll be gone. But I've been functioning in a way where I, I know I have a lot set up post-career.

You know, I've never identified myself as a body builder. I don't really even like to dress looking like I'm this fucking jack bodybuilder in a tight white be neck I'm just like a skinny guy who walks through the street, you know? Well look but like I don't identify myself as such so when I'm done bodybuilding It's not like oh no who am I now this loss of this loss of self no, it's just a chapter of my life The book is closed. It's open a new one what's next? So just Creating a structure right now and a self where there's no fear around leaving it.

It'll be sad as fucking I will forever miss being the strong shredded this big, the standing on stage, the feeling and other lights here. My name called, but it's the time in place for it. I'm enjoying it right now and when it's gone, it'll just be time for the next thing. And then fatherhood. Yes. That's that's like my the next thing. And then fatherhood. Yes. That's like my thing. And I saw, like, if I'm lucky enough to have kids, it's like, I just, I put that little, that little safety cynicism that I myself, because there's always a fear behind that. But I just truly think that I'm going to be the best dad ever. My fiance

will be the best mom ever. And I'm like, I'm fucking looking forward to that. I'm very excited to have kids. And like, I'll hear a lot of people say that they're scared to bring their kids into this world, because of the shape of where it's at and how crazy things are now. But I'm like, no, like, that's exciting. I'm gonna bring a badass kid and he's gonna fucking own this shit

because I'll teach him how to navigate it and I'll give him permission to do all the stuff that I've learned. And I'll teach him everything I've learned and I'm really excited to like build that kind of family unit and hopefully pass on some knowledge I've learned and I'll teach him everything I've learned and I'm really excited to build that kind of family unit and hopefully pass on some knowledge I've learned over years and what my parents gave me and what I've expanded on that and put that into another human. Yeah, me too. I can't wait to be a dad and the difference between our parents' generation and ours, an our generation and the next one. I really, really hope will be a big inflection point.

Our parents did fantastic. They did as well as they could, but the difference in the amount of information that's available, the self-growth, the personal work that you've been able to do, that I've been able to do, you have the opportunity right now, if you're listening to this, to access the greatest thinkers on the planet,

24, 7 in real time, for free, directly into your ears. It is such an unbelievable privilege to be able to have that. It is fucking insane. You cannot like the way that you feel. You cannot like the texture of your own mind, the way that you experience the world. And you have the opportunity to be able to go out and learn the exact thing that you need to be able to improve that. Go away, work on it, come back, listen to the same person again. It's fucking insane. It's absolutely ridiculous that we have the opportunity to do this. And it is such a huge opportunity.

I asked David Goggins because he, David Goggins, his father had been mistreated by his grandfather, Goggins's grandfather, and then his father mistreated David. And I asked David whether he or she saw it as part of his mission to be a like a dam, to be a breakwater or a circuit breaker from all of this trauma, you know, that's getting passed down from generation to generation. And I think that a degree of awareness, you know, all of the challenges that young men are facing at the moment, where they wish they Being able to speak up more integrate the feminine learn to embody the masculine whatever it might be I really really hope and think that in you know 20 years time when the next generation like the millennial

Personal development bro generation kids are growing up that they're actually gonna be like you know It was I fucking I learned so much Yeah, my dad like I just they he downloaded like every Jordan Peterson and Joe Rogan insight directly into my brain by the age of 10 years old I can't imagine that generation. Yeah, I think it's really exciting I feel like I feel like it would be like a not everyone's thinking advantage some people are just growing tick-tock with this use of So it'll be like those people and then no one's down here I don't be like with an audible subscription and people without an audible subscription. Exactly. Yeah. I do agree. I think it's called a sortative mating in like the

evolutionary psychology literature and people that are alike mate, people that are alike mate, and that ends up with, you know, the personal growth people mate with the personal growth people and the people that the TikTok people make with the TikTok people and you do end up your right, you do end up with this almost diverging quality of insight. Perhaps. Like wall raising growth, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, which is not good. But on the flip side, like what are you going to do? Like you're reaching 20 million people across all of your socials, you know, if you can't nudge culture, then nobody can. But yeah, man, I think the opportunity, and it really

sounds like the work that you've done is almost preparing yourself to become a good dad in a way. I love the idea of most of the battles that you go through in your 20s, being the thing that prepares you to be the father that you want to be in your 30s. I really think that that's a very noble way of thinking about. And also, you know, it's not like you didn't get anything out of it either, but you also get this beautiful opportunity to pass on more insights to a child that were hard one by

you. I think that's really really cool. For sure, yeah. Why it's so important in your 20s to throw yourself into the fire, to take the risks, and if there's gonna be a moment in your life where you're like, fucking, I'm just gonna go for it.

And if I fail, I fail, doing in your 20s, you know? Take the risks, do the things that are uncomfortable, and kind of like navigate yourself through it. Because really putting yourself in those uncomfortable situations, like you said, that discomfort equals growth. So you kind of got to do it. Fuck yeah. Chris Bumsteads, ladies and gentlemen, Chris, let's bring this one home.

I really appreciate you, man. Thank you for having me. Why should people go if they want to check out all of the shit that you're doing at the moment? I could just look up Chris Bumstead. I can find it. Right name. Right name, yeah. Relatively right name. Right.

Yeah. Yeah. Dagwood Bum said famous from the old newspapers in the 70s or some shit. Okay. Dude, thank you so much for having me. I appreciate you. Yeah, no, I'm super grateful to be here and watch your podcast for a while. So it's an honor to be sitting in front of you in this intimidating interview as people

like the comments. Ha!