Modern Wisdom - #916 - Freya India - Why Modern Women Feel More Lost Than Ever

Episode Date: March 17, 2025

Freya India is a writer and journalist focussed on female mental health and modern culture. Are modern women okay? With rising statistics on declining happiness, life satisfaction, and marriage rates, it’s clear that the younger generation is facing serious challenges. What are the biggest issues modern women are dealing with, and how can they start to overcome them? Expect to learn why so many girls are drawn to therapy culture, if girls raised in religious families seem to be doing better than liberal secular girls, why so many people are addicted to social media, how social media is reshaping the fundamental nature of relationships, is Gen Z actually living in an imaginary world, and much more… Sponsors: See discounts for all the products I use and recommend: https://chriswillx.com/deals Get the best bloodwork analysis in America at https://functionhealth.com/modernwisdom Get $350 off the Pod 4 Ultra at https://eightsleep.com/modernwisdom (use code MODERNWISDOM) Get a 20% discount on the best supplements from Momentous at https://livemomentous.com/modernwisdom Get a Free Sample Pack of all LMNT Flavours with your first purchase at https://drinklmnt.com/modernwisdom Extra Stuff: Get my free reading list of 100 books to read before you die: https://chriswillx.com/books Try my productivity energy drink Neutonic: https://neutonic.com/modernwisdom Episodes You Might Enjoy: #577 - David Goggins - This Is How To Master Your Life: https://tinyurl.com/43hv6y59 #712 - Dr Jordan Peterson - How To Destroy Your Negative Beliefs: https://tinyurl.com/2rtz7avf #700 - Dr Andrew Huberman - The Secret Tools To Hack Your Brain: https://tinyurl.com/3ccn5vkp - Get In Touch: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/modernwisdompodcast Email: https://chriswillx.com/contact - Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Why do you think so many girls are drawn to therapy culture? Oh, I think it's a lot of things. I do think this is a cliché thing to say now, but I do think therapy culture has replaced religion. That's not a new thing to say. People have been saying that for a long time. Christopher Lash was writing about that in the 70s. Frank Ferrudi writes about it really well now.

But in recent years, since social media, I would say, therapy culture has just escalated to the point where I think young women don't see it as a worldview, they just see that as kind of life. So they interpret everything through this therapeutic lens. So their lives, their relationships, their emotions. this therapeutic lens, so their lives, their relationships, their emotions. And I think it has elevated to the level of religion. So you think of all the characteristics of religion, we just mimic them with therapy culture. So instead of praying, we just repeat our positive affirmations. Instead of seeking salvation, you'll go on a healing journey. Instead of resisting temptation from the devil, you'll reframe your intrusive thoughts.

And so I think for young women in particular who are becoming less religious, this kind of therapeutic worldview has completely replaced that void. What does a therapeutic worldview consist of? What does that mean? Like seeing problems in your life, kind of pathologizing problems and experiences as something medical, rather than I'm just experiencing this emotion or kind of age-old anxiety now it's become a medical issue. So things like talking in the language of attachment styles and trauma and losing the language of just ordinary hurt and disappointment and things like that. And for some reason this is giving some kind of solace or comfort, order being brought

out of chaos. I think it gives the comfort religion gives and the consolation of like, you see young women on TikTok saying things like, like they won't pray to God, but they'll give a request to the universe and like have faith in that. And so I think it gives all the comfort of religion, but it takes away the inconvenient parts. So the, any actual demands on you or kind of restrictions on your freedom or anything like that. Being held to standards of behavior, et cetera.

So it has what women are craving in modern life, I think, which is belonging and security in something and faith in something, but it's, it's a much easier version of religion. Slippery religion. Yeah. How many of these girls are in therapy, do you think? A lot. There was a study recently showing 32% of all 12 to 17 year olds in America have either had therapy, been on medication or had some kind of treatment in 2023. Over a single year, one third. Which is insane.

And I was talking to someone about that statistic and they were like, oh, that's great. That's amazing. And I was thinking that's a bleak statistic. So yeah, I think there's the girls that are in therapy, which is a lot, but then there's also the girls who are just like living in therapy culture. So it's just, they scroll through Instagram and it's all about attachment styles, trauma. They go on TikTok and it's like a trauma informed therapist telling them like red flags they should watch out for and stuff. It's just like, there's the actual therapy, which I'm sure there is,

there's useful therapists, but there's also just this culture, which is just the world that they're swimming in. Yeah. So you're never able to switch it off. I think, um, Alanda Botton was sat in that same seat as you, big proponent of psychotherapy, I think trained as psychotherapist himself too, onto School of Life, which isn't just a YouTube channel, but a psychotherapy facility here in London. Yeah.

And even he, like the biggest proponent of it, I think would very much say that there is a time for. Therapizing. Yes. And then there is a time to not in the same way as going to the gym, there is a time to train and then there is a time to recover. And I wonder whether one of the criticisms that's caused by And then there is a time to not in the same way as going to the gym, there is a time to train and then there is a time to recover. And I wonder whether one of the criticisms that's common that I put to him

was lots of people online, more old school people, more sort of typical stiff-up-a-lip type people would say, you're not fixing your past problems, you're dwelling on them. And by dwelling on them, you are ruminating too much. There is some evidence. I mean, a good bit of evidence ruminations, not particularly fantastic for you. And finding this line between yeah, mate, we don't want to deny that bad things happen to never alchemize them or transcend and include them into our life.

And then on the other side, we don't want to wallow in them. Uh, but I suppose if you have the online environment that you exist within, permanently using this language, you're permanently having these structures and these thinking patterns reinforced. And then it's how you begin to talk to yourself about what happens offline. Yes. And then you also have, you know, facilitation or medication or conversations with your friends. Further embracing all of that, you're just entrenched in this all the time.

Yeah, well, I used to think, and I think a lot of people think therapy culture is particularly bad for men because it kind of has a female approach to problems and it's about, you know, ruminating. And often it's like, if you don't have a female response, there's something wrong with you. It's kind of a red flag if you don't go to therapy. But I actually changed my mind on that and I actually think therapy culture is worse for women because women ruminate more. They co-ruminate more. So it's playing into the weakness that they already have or the disposition. Yeah. If you think of an anxious young 14 year old girl, the worst thing you can tell her is to go

further into her own head to get relief and to think more about her problems and to kind of search her life for symptoms. You know, that, if you told me that at 14, it's the worst thing I could have heard. Um, so I actually think maybe some men do need to do that a little bit more, but the average young girl, uh, needs to kind of cut out. I wonder whether therapy language and therapy culture for girls is what gym language, gym culture, Psalms, testosterone, steroids at 17 is for guys. Yeah, I think it's a form of control.

So it's like, it's our version of control. You know, if we feel uncomfortable or feel an uneasy emotion, we're just like, I'm going to categorize that and diagnose it. You know, that's my attachment disorder or that's my depression. And I think men do that kind of, they have their own kind of self optimization trends and the gym stuff where that can become like a form of control to deal with kind of uneasy emotions. And I think, yeah, this is the woman's version of that.

It's like we can't sit with it or just accept like a painful situation. So I often think about, so if you look at these kind of attachment style forums or girls talking about their attachment styles, very often they'll describe just a bad relationship and then they'll say, oh, it's my attachment disorder. So they'll be like, he cheated on me and I can't get over it because of my anxious attachment. And it's like, it's so sad because actually losing the language to talk about the actual problem that they're facing because they're trying to get control.

Because it's a lot easier to be like, oh, you know, I'm anxious or he's avoidant, then we have a terrible relationship and I've just wasted four years with someone. You get the control through the therapy culture. So that's where I see it becoming a danger to girls and young women. What's that stat that you mentioned there

about girls from religious families seeming to do differently well and now 18 to 25 year old girls are religious at different levels and stuff? Yeah. So I think for the first time in history, young women are less religious than young men now. Typically women would have been more. Yeah.

But among Gen Z, it's men that are going to church way more than women now. And Jonathan Haidt did some research on this showing that he looked at a survey of statements and they were things like, I have no hope in myself, like really self-disparaging statements. And he found that teenagers without religion agreed with them way stronger than teenagers who were religious and especially who were conservative. And I think there's a couple of reasons for that. I think one is kind of that external locus of control. So conservatives tend to have more of an internal locus of control.

So they feel more control over things happening in their lives. Also, if you're a conservative teenager, you're more likely to be living with both parents, which I think protects your mental health. And also your parents are more likely to have clearer boundaries with you, which I think is actually very useful for anxiety and depression. So there's different explanations for it, but yeah, it's a worry because young women are becoming less religious and their mental health is also tanking. Um, so there has to be some link there. And maybe therapy culture, therapy languages stepping into the void and also stopping them

from perhaps going back to finding religion. I'm hesitant to say that therapy culture is getting in the way of religion. Religion is necessarily the answer to this, but that it's whatever better alternatives could be, including religion, are being precluded by this much sexier, newer, more comforting answer to everything that makes no demands on you as a person that doesn't require you to follow any edicts or refrain from any types of behaviors. Well, therapy culture, I think it probably is getting in the way in a sense because it's kind of the opposite of religion. So if you think of Christianity, it's about dying to yourself, like giving up some of

yourself to be part of something bigger. Therapy culture is all about going more and more into yourself, discovering yourself and like finding your authentic. So it's the complete opposite. So something like Christianity, I think most young women just view it as really restrictive and limiting. And something like therapy culture or just liberal culture in general, tells them that any limit or constraint is a problem. What like?

Well, just this sense in culture now that any obligation is like an obstacle to your life or your mental health. I think that's just endemic from everywhere we look. And it's very much the opposite of what religion tells us, which is that through sacrifice, you find kind of actual fulfillment and you kind of break free from yourself. Now we're kind of told whether it's through feminism or therapy culture or whatever girls are scrolling through on TikTok or Instagram, it's like, you know, think like you think of therapy culture on TikTok, it will say something like, don't be a people pleaser, don't be needy. But these things are kind of the opposite of what Christianity is telling you, which is like you should be someone who puts your needs second.

It's good to be someone who gives for other people, who depends on people and they depend on you. That's not the message girls are growing up with. Is therapy culture less pro-social? Yes, I think so. Well, again, you're just going inwards. And yeah, also, I often think of, again, it's a similarity between therapy culture for women and kind of self-optimization stuff for men, because it's like for men, if you go too far that way, other people become obstacles to your ambition

and your self-development. So people become distractions and annoyances. It's the same with therapy culture because then for a young woman who's really into therapy culture, a man is just like an obstacle to her healing and her mental health. So I think if you go too far in it, you can just interpret anyone or anything as a threat to your piece. Yes. Yeah, that's very interesting, which is, you know, the best kind of relationships are the ones that make both people in them better. Yeah. That they enter the relationship and stay in the relationship, hopefully.

Or if they leave, they leave in an improved situation, individually. Yes. But I don't think that's really getting across to young women. I think, yeah, I think what the problem is, is you go on something like TikTok and you have like a trauma-informed therapist who might be interesting and informative, but she's now competing in a attention economy. So she has to create a video which is engaging and extreme. So she has to say five red flags you should avoid in men and they're,

they're things that are just so vague and things like, well, I literally saw one that said gifts and trips is a red flag because it's love bombing. Okay. had gifts and trips is a red flag because it's love bombing. Okay. Um, but other things like they'll say, you know, you're in a bad relationship if he makes you feel insecure, for example, by making a comment about your looks. But it's, it's so vague that it's like, well, anyone's boyfriend could be included in that somehow.

Um, but if you add them all together, if you're scrolling through this all day, every day, which a lot of girls are, the message is basically like anyone can be toxic and anyone can be a red flag. And safe. Yeah. And you're, unfortunately girls do co-ruminate together and it's really bad for their mental health. So co-ruminate.

Yeah. together and it's really bad for their mental health. So. Co-ruminate. Yeah. So dwelling on their problems with friends, um, which if you think of something like a Reddit forum, that is just a rumination machine. It's just like, it's there for everybody to analyze together. TikTok is literally somewhere you can ruminate and then it will start recommending

you new disorders and problems. somewhere you can ruminate and then it will start recommending you new disorders and problems. So it's like, it's kind of like the inner world of these young girls, but now getting fed more and more to them. Other people's inner worlds, which can become a sort of, oh, that's a nice thought pattern. Maybe I'll try that one on. Yeah. And the most risk averse neurotic anxious women on there will get the most traction because they'll be saying everybody else is following along from them. So if you spend too much time on there, you will think that like a well adjusted woman doesn't need anyone doesn't have any distraction in her life and feels good all the time that

no one ever threatens her or makes her feel anxious. And that's just like a lonely life. And any perturbing from feeling the opposite of that is not because of her. It's because of some insult that's occurred in one form or another from the world or from structures or from a partner or from a friend or from. But the problem with that is you shut down any constructive criticism of you. Like if your boyfriend has a constructive comment about you, if you are being selfish or something, um, therapy culture does provide endless excuses to kind of

twist that into, yeah, he's a toxic person. You're only like that because of your childhood trauma. He's just like an asshole, but you have like all of these reasons why you behave that way. Have you contrasted this? I don't know whether you've been able to look at it with what young guys see. Is there an equivalent for young guys? I think the only equivalent I could think of is the productivity stuff.

So I don't know if you saw that tweet recently of the guy. He's like, uh, this morning routine saved me. So he does his morning routine, which is like super productive. It's like everything it's the red light therapy and the journaling and everything. Um, but it's kind of eerie when you watch it, because it's like, this is not a lifestyle you could have with anyone else around it's so to the absolute like minute. Um, and you think like, this is kind of a similar thing with therapy culture.

It's like, we're trying to have this perfect control over our lives and like get perfect control before you commit to anybody. Um, and then you think of things like young people not wanting to get married and have children and it's like, well, yeah, because there'll be a huge obstacle if we think that we have to have this perfect control over our mental health or our productivity routine. Anyone else is going to seem like chaos coming into that. And so I think young men and women

can both go to an extreme of those, but it's kind of the same thing. It's like an avoidance strategy. It's like, I have full control in this situation and I'm not vulnerable. Have you read any Oliver Birkman? Yes, I love Oliver Birkman. He's great. He's phenomenal. Did you get his new one? Meditations for mortals.

Okay. It came out a couple of months ago. One of the best things that I got exposed to this year, just talks about a lot of this, you know, it's very self-deprecating, very British, some might say. Yeah. No, I relate to a lot of this, you know, it's very self-deprecating, very British, some might say. Yeah. Uh, no, I relate to him painfully because.

Yeah, me too. Uh, he really sees a particular cohort of human nature very transparently, I think. Yeah. And I think I have that tendency to see people as distraction because I'm trying to work, so I'm often like, you people as distraction because I'm trying to work. So I'm often like, you know, I need to write in perfect silence. I need to have my perfect routine. And yeah, I read a quote, I think it was C.S. Lewis saying something like, eventually you

realize that all of these distractions from your life were just your life. Like they weren't distractions at all. And I think it's really sad to teach young people or just drill into their heads that they should avoid anyone getting in the way of their self-development and their ambition or their healing because that's life getting in the way. it's sad to see people kind of half-heartedly do relationships or kind of put them off in pursuit of that ultimate control. I think that's a really, that will backfire eventually. What are the problems of excessive self-focus?

Um, well, I think that, I think it's Jordan Peterson says there's no difference between like self-obsession and mental illness in the sense think it's Jordan Peterson says, there's no difference between like self-obsession and mental illness in the sense that it's all focusing too much on yourself. Not to say that it's in your control all the time necessarily, but that is what it is, it's focusing too much on your own problems. And I think yeah, as I said, girls are particularly vulnerable to it. And I think what it does is it blocks real self-development because you can't see where you're going wrong because you have these endless excuses for why you're behaving the

way you are. So I think a lot of girls think they're doing self-development and self-reflection, but it's actually accidentally like self-obsession because they're thinking, oh, you know, I'm analyzing my attachment style and I'm thinking about my trauma and I'm like doing the work, but there's not much actual self-development going on. Work being done. Yeah. And I think it can kind of be a trap where you think I'm working on myself as a person. And the same with the self-optimization stuff. And I think it can kind of be a trap where you think I'm working on myself as a person. And the same with the self-optimization stuff. Like I think you can get so obsessed with stuff like maybe the ice baths and the breath

work that you're not thinking about trying to be a better person. Like it just becomes. There's a couple of traps for that. Alex Hormosi taught me a really, really good lesson as I started to do like little bits of investing and stuff like that. So sometimes a company will say, Hey, we were this interesting company in a world that you maybe know or like, would you like to put some money in and maybe come on as an advisor or whatever it might be?

And I was talking to him and he said, how many of these calls are you taking? So I don't know, you know, maybe had two last week or something. He says that the most dangerous calls that you have, because they all feel like work. They all feel like business and almost none of them result in anything. And it's kind of like that upfront. It feels like you're doing a thing, which is more dangerous than not doing anything at all, because it acts as a placeholder. It takes up the parking space of what could be work.

If you're doing nothing, you would have this big vacancy and you go, I really, I really need to step my game up or do whatever. You know, it's one of the problems I think that people have with scam supplements, with training styles that don't actually do anything. But it, the subtext that they understand is this thing is taking the place of something that would work and this thing doesn't work, which means that you're getting neither of the benefits. It's kind of like the highlighter girls who, like girls who have like the perfect

highlighters and gel pens for their exam, but they get like a D because they're obsessing over having the perfect setup. The system, not the outcome. Yeah. Yes. Yeah, that is interesting. Um, I suppose this self-pity thing gets wrapped up as empowerment in a way. Yeah.

And that causes girls to suffer. Yeah. Yeah. And that causes girls to suffer. Yeah. And it's funny because there's a lot of emphasis on like, um, like women walking away from disrespect and not tolerating any bad behavior, um, but there's also kind of this self-pitying stuff going on. So it's like real empowerment would be very often, I'm not tolerating this, I'm walking

away, but you kind of, you look online now and there's a lot of young women who just ruminate over a problem. So like I was saying before, they might be in a bad relationship and they'll be analyzing both of their attachment styles and thinking about how it's toxic and talking to other girls about it rather than just leaving. And so I think sometimes young women like me as well get caught up in analyzing and not the actual action. And they think all the mental health stuff is actually empowering them. But I often see it like taking, again, taking the language away from actual problems and rather than everybody opening up is actually like closing down

their ability to see what's going on and act upon it. In other news, this episode is brought to you by Function. Did you know that your annual physical only screens for around 20 biomarkers? That leaves a lot of gaps when it comes to understanding your health, which is why I partnered with Function. They run lab tests twice a year that monitor over a hundred biomarkers.

They even screen for 50 types of cancer at stage one. They've got a team of expert physicians that takes that data, puts it into a simple dashboard and gives you actionable recommendations to improve your health and lifespan. They track everything from your heart health to your hormone levels, thyroid function.

Plus Dr. Andrew Hubern is their scientific advisor and Dr. Mark Hyman is their chief medical officer. So you can trust that the data and insights you receive are scientifically sound and practical. Getting your blood work analyzed like this would usually cost thousands, but with Function, it's only $500. And right now you can get the exact same panels I get plus bypass their 400,000 person wait list by going to the link in the description below or heading to functionhealth.com modern wisdom. That to functionhealth.com slash modern wisdom. That's functionhealth.com slash modern wisdom. Well, all of this stuff is instrumental.

There are things that you do in order to be able to do a thing. The, the, the mode is not the end itself. And it's the same with the morning routine thing. You know, I hold my hands up. I would, I, if not for a slightly different life and a different algorithm, that could have been me, the guy that went, that trended on Twitter. I said this a couple of times, but I had an absurdly long, very elaborate routine for about probably four years, three or four years. And my retrospective justification for it is that I had done so little

in the way of self-reflection that I had, you know, from 18 to 30 or whatever, I had over a decade of catching up to do. And I could have spaced it out like a normal sane human and it might have taken some time or I could have done Navy Seal Hell Week version very intensely and get up on a morning and go for a walk and get back and journal and do breath work and meditate and do yin yoga and then prep my food and read and then start my day. And I'm like, how fucking opulent and luxurious and ridiculous and

inaccessible, all of these things. I understand. Uh, but I had a lot of low hanging fruit that I needed to get and then higher hanging fruit too. But one thing that I am happy about is that I never confused the mode of improvement for the reason for the improvement. Yes. And very quickly looked at ways to apply that. All right. Okay. I seem to be able to deal with emotional perturbments a bit better now after a few thousand sessions of meditation. Huh.

Maybe I should use that and start pushing myself into different places emotionally. Uh, wow. I've learned some stuff about how human nature works or resilience or whatever. Let's see if I can find some situations that I can stress test that and see if it actually works for me or I've got new mobility because I've been doing yin yoga for fucking forever. Maybe I can start doing CrossFit, which I did, or a different training modality or something else.

Not confusing instrumental goods for the ends themselves. I think it's very important And it takes the placeholder. The therapy culture takes the placeholder of something that could be functional work and very viciously encourages you to not actually go out and even try. There is no such thing as a stress test of this. Anytime it gets, it's unfalsifiable. Anytime it gets stressed, it's an admission that the very philosophy itself was correct and that you should have never encountered this thing in the first place.

Yeah. Well, I think you view it, as you've said about like the lonely chapter, you view it as like a set time. I think so. That has to come to an end. Yes. Which is what therapy should be as well, is like a set period. But the problem is now, the therapy culture stuff is so tied up with identity stuff.

So you get kind of young girls who start reading about social anxiety and they relate to it because they're 14 and shy. And everybody is, yeah. And they go on again, these forums and these communities where everyone's saying, I have social anxiety disorder, and because of that, I can't get public transport, or because of that, I can't do this.

And then they start thinking, well, I feel it, it's really painful for me, so why would I put myself in those situations? I'm just not built for those situations. And so that's the problem with it, is there's no end to it, because you can just go on there and then it becomes part of who you are. And again, as you said, the second you go out and you feel intense anxiety as you do

as a 14 year old in like any situation, then you'll think, oh yeah, this is confirmation that I have social anxiety disorder and shouldn't be here. So yeah, I always just think of these things as like me at 13 and the worst things you could say to me and social anxiety disorder is one of them. It's like, I kind of needed people to kind of laugh it off and just say, well, you have to go anyway. That's what I needed. Like if someone came to me and said, well, some people call it a disorder and they

take medication for it and some people need that, I'd be like, well, I need that. It's kind of like the mental health, psychological health equivalent of the misdiagnosis of gender dysphoria among young kids. Yeah. It's like seeing your personality traits as symptoms, which happens with the gender dysphoria stuff as well, which is like now just like quirky edgy things about people become that personality. Yeah. That becomes a diagnosis. So like before we'd be like, talk about some guy and be like, he's always late. It's just something about him. You know, it's kind of lovable and annoying, but it's his personality. And now it's like, Oh, because of his ADHD, he's always late.

Yeah, that's so funny. That's really interesting to hear, to hear the language. I mean, even, even we do it, we do it around here. You know, there'll be, for instance, does this can have it on? Yes, it does. Can you punch in on this dude? Can you punch in? All right, so I'm not sure how tight that lens can get.

If you look very, very, very carefully here, there's a follow us this, I'm for the people listening, I'm pointing to the back of a can of Newtonic. We've produced maybe a million of these, this particular version of the can in America Follow us as the three social icons and then there's new tonic comm at the bottom If you look really really carefully just here, you'll see that the Instagram icon is probably

one mil to one and a half mil to the left of the follow us and The left of the new tonic comm thing and this little world is maybe two mil in from the us on after the follow. Uh, I noticed that because I noticed things. I'm sent a photo and immediately, immediately after sending that photo him said the tism strikes again. Never been diagnosed with autism. Don't think I've got it. Hold eye contact with most people perfectly well. Even within that there's something and it's self-deprecating, it's

mockery, it's whatever, but even in that it belies this, like somebody made the joke about Elon Musk's department of governmental efficiency was less avengers assemble and more Asperger's assemble. So like even on the guy side of things, you know, OCD, Oh, I'm, I'm obsessive about this sort of stuff. Uh, it's, it's my, like, you know, I mean, I am writing this book at the moment. And one of the chapters is about, uh, these kinds of TikToks that girls are

looking at about autism. And I literally went down a rabbit hole like I'm autistic, I'm fully autistic. Well, like all of the symptoms, they're all about shy, nerdy girls. And I'm like, oh, okay, this has been me my whole life, just kind of awkward and didn't fit in and reads a lot and everything. And I'm like, oh, good, reading this, if you're just like slightly different from the mainstream popular extroverted girl, you're going to be autistic. And it's funny, but it's also like, oh my God, there's like, I can't say a serious point because you're laughing at me.

Why is autism, it's like, it just always makes me laugh. I think it's kind of charming. It's definitely, autism holds like a very unique, in the mental pathology library that we can all take. It's the one that I think is sort of easiest to throw. I see, maybe it's because the autistic people like aren't registering it, but it's the lowest amount of offense seems to be taken by people

misdiagnosing that in some way. And maybe that's because autism in many ways is a disadvantage for people, but also bestows some of what some people would consider as advantages too. Yeah. And I, I, autistic people I've met do kind of openly joke about it, I feel. Um, whereas I feel like OCD is more offensive to say, oh, that was me being OCD. I feel like that's become a bit more. Yeah.

It's my suicidal ideation. Yeah. Um, but yeah, no, it's funny, but it's also like, you think of like a 13 year old girl who really convinces herself she has autism and actually she's just quite unique and quirky. Um, that can be like a lifelong sentence of thinking you're different from other people because you're unwell. Um,

a much more pernicious one maybe would be something which is less serious of a diagnosis and that everybody believes that they have, which would be an attachment style thing. Yes. Because it's such a, it's such a defining characteristic of how you relate to other people, the most important things that you do. And to be able to write off every time that it comes in, ah, that's my avoidant attachment again.

Ah, that's triggered. And to kind of ignore your gut instinct, like, I feel like you can be in a bad relationship and you have a feeling about someone. And, and now you interpret that as, as my anxiety coming up, that's like my attachment disorder triggering rather than, oh, they've just said something or revealed something about themselves that I should be, I'm actually tuning into. The worry is like young girls convince themselves they have a disorder and then shut down that instinct. they have a disorder and then shut down that instinct. I suppose also it denies you the opportunity to, it stops you from having the opportunity

to deny yourself from being at the mercy of that thing. Yeah. That you say, that's a pattern that keeps coming up in me. I don't like it and I want to get rid of it. Yes. Well, it's a part of me. It is me. Yeah. It defines me as a person.

Yeah, I hate this phrase. Like I'm anxiously attached rather than like, I'm feeling anxiety at the moment. And also you see on like, on the internet, like anxious attachment quizzes and like t-shirts and like it's become a thing to identify. Yeah. And it's also a community, like an online community of people who will again co-ruminate over it.

Um, but I think it's actually more dangerous than we think if you take it too far, because you, again, you just become blind to what's actually happening in your life and you're kind of living by a theory. And also blind to how you can be complicit in causing these things to happen. How you could have self authorship over stopping these things from happening. Yes. Yeah. Well, if someone's behaving badly and all you're doing is like repeating your positive

affirmations in the mirror. It's not going to help you. Like at some point you need to have the kind of confidence to stand up to people. And you're not going to have that if you're like core belief is that you're an anxious, damaged person. 73% of Boomer males said, no matter what psychological challenges I face, I will not let them define me. 72% of Gen Z females say mental illness is an important part of my identity.

Yeah. Bit of an arc. I mean, that's just tragic. But I think I, again, I can't really blame young girls for that. I just think it's everywhere now. And as Constantine says, like if the incentives are there, it's just going to happen. And there are incentives now to do that. I just think it's everywhere now. And as Constantine says, if the incentives are there, it's just going to happen. And there are incentives now to do that. It's almost like now, you know what we were saying before, if you're English and you talk about something

good happening in your life, people kind of judge you and think you're weird. It's kind of become, like if you go around saying, actually have really good mental health and I deal with things really well and I don't get anxious, people look at you like, um, that's kind of a wrong thing to say. Like, I think if you were a girl saying that in school, people would not relate to you as much. You're just in denial. Yeah.

Or like, it's kind of a braggy way to be now to say, oh, I handled it fine. Good for you. Yeah. As opposed to well done. Yeah. Yeah. Those of us that have, you know, grew up with parents that caused us to have anxious attachment, try be autistic or something.

That's actually a solution. I think that more people should be autistic and that would fix a lot of problems that we're facing. Uh, yeah, I'd, I'd mentioned to you you before Lewis Capaldi, um, there's a great documentary on Netflix called how I'm feeling now. Highly recommend you watch it. I think it's super pertinent to what you're doing. It'd be great for the book too.

Yeah. So you have this guy who lots and lots of success and the success causes him to. Uh, develop a, we must've had a genetic predisposition for Tourette's. I don't know what, I can't catch it. I don't think so. He must've had this predisposition in the pressure that he puts on himself. And that's coming from outside too. And the story he tells himself and the rumination causes his mental health

to decline to the point where he's got this sort of tick and his shoulders. Sort of, he's always doing this. It's like a whole body is contorting. And I think maybe it's two years in a row now, at least one year at Glastonbury, he was, he stopped singing. He came out on stage, began singing, and then partway through the song was unable to continue, had to get the audience to help. And that happened at a show at the O2, I think I think, which is in the documentary.

And then they tried to bring this documentary into land at the end of 22 or 23 or whatever. And it's like, and he took six weeks off and started doing yoga and stopped eating McDonald's and look at him now. It's like, and then the updates since then are sad that a guy under an awful lot of pressure, with a beautiful voice, with really, really wonderful stories to tell that make people feel things, feeling so much and being unable to handle it to the point where the very art form that he was built to do, he's unable to do on stage. So has he backed away from singing as a result? I haven't checked in, but the last I saw was this summer.

There was some festival thing I think that he was at that he had some trouble on stage again. Yeah. I mean, maybe he had a bug or whatever, but it seems unlikely. It seems like it was probably the same challenge that he's been dealing with since the documentary. likely it seems like it was probably the same challenge that he's been dealing with since the documentary. And, um, yeah, that kind of got me thinking about the mental health thing,

affecting everybody all the way up. Uh, you know, there's not really any hiding from it. And the way that he goes about it, you know, he's very self-deprecating, but he does not, he's, he's relieved when he gets a diagnosis in the documentary. He finally, they say, turns out I've got Tourette's. That kind of makes sense. That thing I was having,

where my heart rate went really high and I kept on breathing, apparently that's called a panic attack. It's like, that's a person finding a diagnosis, not identifying with a diagnosis. Well, that's another problem with the therapy stuff is it's, well, one, it's kind of offensive to people like that because the, I mean, there are literally young women, um, mimicking ticks ticks from Tourette's TikTok. Um, and whether that's.

TikTok. Yeah. I think there is actually a TikTok hashtag. Um, but yeah, they're, they're picking up Tourette's and you know, whether that's conscious or not, um, some of them at least are kind of jumping on that identity. Um, and then you hear someone like Luis Capaldi story and it's like the pain of that is actually stopping him doing what he loves. Um, that conversation is kind of being swallowed up by the conversation of

like young girls identifying with Tourette's. Like people are fucking lapping with this on face to camera videos. Yeah. Again, it actually takes away the language to talk about people who are actually suffering, um, because it's just become so big now that everyone's autistic, everyone's got Tourette's. And I can't not laugh at it. Uh, is there a new story about why people are so addicted to social media?

Is there any more that you've come to think about? Yeah. Well, I, when I started writing, I was writing about addiction to social media and trends and stuff and kind of, kind of wondering why that was happening. And then I've been trying to kind of trace it back to think what is the actual need that's not being met here. So one of them, I was looking at all this attachment style stuff and like the dating gurus, how popular like relationship advice is on TikTok and stuff. And I was thinking, is this because young people don't have adults giving them guidance about relationships?

So now they go and watch an influencer who's an attachment expert because parents and families aren't getting as involved in giving advice about relationships. So things like that, there's a lot of trends where I think you can trace it back to adults have stepped away from giving some form of guidance. So you see it with like relationship stuff on TikTok and also the desperate search for obviously community and belonging to something is coming from a real pain of not having any community in real life. When I started writing about social media, loads of people would say to me, oh, but young people need social media because it's like a lifeline.

They have their online communities and stuff. And I'm like, that is not a benefit of social media. That's just an absolute indictment of where we are in modern life. Why is their community a Reddit forum? Um, so we can talk about social media addiction, but I think you have to kind of strip it back to what, why young people are so obsessed with it and what is missing in their actual life. What is everyone searching for or missing? Yeah.

Because when you meet people who aren't on social media or don't have like ridiculously high screen times, um, they usually have a lot of their needs met in the real world, which just sounds like an obvious thing to say, but it's true. I think the more you find yourself in a fulfilling relationship or you're happy with your job, you don't feel as much of a pull to scroll endlessly through TikTok all day. So the fact that young people were spending like six hours a day on their phones is not just because social media is addictive, it's because there's nothing more addictive in their life or like a reason to stop scrolling through it. And so I think sometimes I can get caught in the trap of like complaining about social media, whereas social media is just filling the gap of whatever was stripped away before.

Yeah. It's not necessarily that there's even nothing more addicting. There's nothing more compelling. Yeah. What else, what else is there that's as fun to do that's that offers everybody the same? Yeah, I mean, you know, I left my old life of nightlife three years ago ish. And that kind of felt a little bit like exiting Bitcoin at a hundred K or something. And being like, why that was kind of selling at the top because there's some crazy

stat about how by 2036, there'll be no nightclubs left. And that's the only thing there's some crazy stat about how by 2036, there'll be no nightclubs left in the UK. None. Yeah. So the, I think it's one a day or one a week or something is closing at the moment across the UK, just that night clubs are not only competing with brunch and with restaurants and with lane seven and with top flight darts and with those ball pit fucking places where

people get to take selfies, it's not just competing with other in-person events and other community-based events or pickleball or whatever, competing with Netflix, Amazon Prime. Is it because everyone's autistic and no one's going clubbing? The answer to every question is either it's only one of two things, too much or too little autism, and I vote that it's too little and we need more. But yes, I think, um, you see, you must've seen this trend the other day. This like a, like slug life thing where people just want, they, I'm not going out.

I don't want to do anything. Uh, it was a huge sub-stack article that, Oh, there was one about, yeah, like rotting in bed. Yes, that was it. Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah, like I think it was about being a loser and how it's like an English thing. Again, being a loser has become the way that you introduce yourself and talk about yourself.

Oh, I don't have a life. Yeah. I don't go anywhere. I don't have any interests. Yeah. I like Netflix. Yeah. I. Oh, I don't have a life. Yeah, I don't go anywhere. I don't have any interests. Yeah.

No, no, no. I like Netflix. Yeah. I don't, boyfriend? No, no, no, no, not for me. No. Yeah, I want, I- I- Would ruin my 7 p.m bedtime. I don't know where that's come from, but I think, I think it's probably social anxiety. And then people come up with all of these kind of romantic ways to talk about it.

So they're like, Oh, I'm just an introvert who enjoys my own time. Or I'm like working on this big thing, so I can't go out clubbing and stuff. And they build their identity around something which would justify not going out. Sleep isn't just about how long you rest but also how well your body stays in its optimal temperature zone throughout the night and this is where 8sleep comes in. Just add their brand new Pod4 Ultra to your mattress like a fitted sheet and it automatically cools down or warms up each side of your bed. It's got integrated sensors that track your sleep time, sleep phases, HRV,

snoring and your heart rate with 99% accuracy. It even starts cooling or heating your bed an hour before your bedtime, and that's why it's been clinically proven to increase total sleep time by up to one hour every night. I've been using my eight-sleep mattress for years, and I literally can't imagine life without it. I'm on the road at the moment in London, and it feels medieval to not have an actively cooled and heated mattress topper. It is a total game changer. Best of all, they have a 30 night sleep trial so you can buy it and sleep on it for 29 days.

If you don't like it, they'll give you your money back. Plus they ship internationally. Right now you can get $350 off the Pod 4 Ultra by going to the link in the description below or heading to 8sleep.com slash modern wisdom using the code modern wisdom. A checkout that's E I G H T sleep.com slash modern wisdom and modern wisdom, a checkout. I guess even relationships have been infected by social media. The boyfriends of Instagram trend has been around for a while, but, uh, has

maybe escalated. Well, have you seen like, I've read an article the other day that made me want to kill myself was about, it was about like soft launching your boyfriend on Instagram. Please tell me more. So it's about telling girls, this young woman wondering how should you announce to your followers, like not influencers, like I'm talking ordinary young women, how should you announce your boyfriend? Should you do a soft launch where it's just like his arm or should you do

like a full reveal? But it's kind of messed up because it's like, this is like introducing a brand deal or something, um, like literally viewing our partners, like products, like, yeah, how do we, how does this play in the optics of public life? Someone said to me the other day, oh, they commented on my sub stack article. Like a relationship is now just a brand collaboration, like two personal brands coming together. Wow. That's good.

And then posting it online. That's really good. Yeah. Soft launching. Well, I've, I've seen people talk about the hard launch, which is just a couple photo that happens out of nowhere. Yeah. Well, so you have all of that. You have like, how do you manage the relationship on social media?

But then you also have how social media affects the relationship. So like the boyfriends of Instagram thing. Like it's kind of funny that boyfriends, you know, when you see like a guy literally on the floor trying to get a good angle of the guy. There was a, I went to Gili T in Bali. It's one of these little islands about five years ago. And there's a famous beach club that's got a swing sort of out in the water. And it's gorgeous.

The sun sets because it's so close to the equator. The sun sets in the summer at 6 30 PM and in the winter at 6 PM. It's like 12 hours of daylight and it just wobbles a little bit like that. And this girl wanted to get a photo of her on the swing, but she wanted to catch the sort of sun bouncing off the top of the water. And I remember thinking, like watching this guy and she was saying, no, no, no, you need to get lower.

You need to like get sort of lower down closer to the water. And this dude's sort of chest, shoulder to neck to fat. And by this time it's C, it's the C. So it's not being gentle with him. So he's like trying to take this photo. The phone's out of the water. He's getting splashed. I remember thinking like that really better be wifey because that's a big ask.

Well, also I just always think who is it for if your boyfriend is right there? Like it does get to the point where you're like posing in a bikini and your boyfriend's taking the pictures of you. It's like, is this for Instagram? Because I don't know. It just, it's such a strange thing that's become so normalized. It's a little bit of an indicator. I mean, unless this is your new album cover or whatever for your slam poetry or some shit that you

do, there is a little bit of like, surely the person that you're trying to impress the most is the one that's taking the photo. So what does the photo need to be taken for? Unless it's for his private collection. It's become so normalized that like when I wrote about boyfriends of Instagram, people were replying like, oh, but you know, I'm trying to get memories and stuff. And like I had a picture. Yeah. There was a picture of like three girls in bikinis and three guys all on the same beach, all taking pictures of their girlfriend. And people were defending it like, oh, they're allowed to have memories. Like what a memory of

you in a bikini. But I actually, I don't think they're lying. I think that's just how normalized it's become. It's like, well, obviously if you go to the beach, you do a photo shoot. And I always try and express that to people. Like you think of an influencer and how her income depends on taking pictures and everywhere she goes, she has to get content. Ordinary women think like that now. Most people have it in the back of their mind. I should be getting a social media picture or this is a good moment or this landscape would get really good clicks. Like that's how they think.

Um, and I, I don't think some older people realize that young girls are behaving and thinking like their influences. Hmm. All the time. Is that an aspirational thing? Is that just that the power users of Instagram and TikTok behave like that because it's their job, which means that the people who are not, they have none of the same obligations feel like they should behave in the same way, or is

there something more going on? Is this aspirational? Is this that people hope maybe I get picked up by a modeling agency? I think a part of it is that, but I think another part is they started doing this when their brains were forming as young girls. They started capturing their life as they went. I don't think they can conceive of just living and existing. I really think it's that ingrained of like, their entire childhood was having a childhood, but also performing and marketing and managing it all at the same time.

childhood, but also performing and marketing and managing it all at the same time. Um, and then like, when you try and get out of it, like when I deleted Instagram years ago, uh, that lingering was still in my head of like, maybe I should share this online or maybe this could be a good photo opportunity and it's, it's really hard to not to kind of unwire that. And now if I go to an event and I don't take a picture, young women I'm friends with will be kind of confused. Like I said, I've been on holiday and I have no evidence of it. It's confusing to them because that's suspicious about whether or not you

actually went on the holiday. It's kind of weird. Um, and I think there are genuinely young people who go on holiday to get pictures, who even get in relationships for the photos and who are quietly living their life for Instagram in ways that people don't realize has become that intense. What do you make of the contribution of family breakdown to this of that? You mentioned before about

that sort of lack of guidance, people looking for a little bit of guidance, um, maybe filling the void with entertainment that typically would have been taken up by family. What role does family breakdown have here? I think it's linked to what I was saying about, yeah, looking for relationship guidance, it's like, um, well, you look at something like mental health TikTok. People are sharing like they're really deep trauma and turmoil and problems. And you can't help but look at it and think, are you close to your family?

Like this is the kind of thing that you talk about with your family. It's what your family is there for. And now you're telling strangers on TikTok. And then you look at the statistics of the amount of Gen Z who aren't living with both their mother and father. I think in the UK it's over half of children by 14 don't live with their mum and dad. And so they don't have a feeling of belonging at home. And then you stretch that out to, they don't have any sense of community. Their community is a Reddit forum or Instagram. Like I, growing up, had no sense of what a local community is or like neighbors knowing each other. It's just, it's really

foreign to me. And I think a lot of Gen Z, they don't have a conception of it beyond like an online community or like the LGBT community or something. That is the limit of community they know. So their family falls apart. There's nothing really to catch them. There's no neighborhood of adults who are there. Then you add that they're becoming less religious. They don't feel that they belong to anything bigger than that. They have no faith in anything bigger. Um, and so the feeling of loneliness is just so intense. Um, and I was writing recently about how I think that actually one of the biggest drivers of behavior we see among Gen Z is this abandonment fear and feeling, um, because their families fell apart, because they don't have community, because they

don't belong to anything bigger, they feel constantly alone. And if you look at the kind of symptoms of abandonment, if you look at like attachment theory, like real attachment theory, not the TikToks, but the like Mary Ainsworth studies and everything, it shows like people who are abandoned, they're really hypersensitive to criticism, they have very low body image and self-esteem. All of the caricature of Gen Z, all of the traits are to do with this feeling of not belonging anywhere. Not to say that it explains everything, but I think families breaking down and not having

a sense of belonging really messes people up. And I think a lot of Gen Z are kind of carrying that around and then looking for it in places. So that obviously they're going to spend hours on TikTok where people are talking to them and talking about their problems because they don't have anything resembling that in real life. And so yeah, I think a lot of the things we kind of laugh at young people for as being kind of narcissistic and, um, I guess, selfish and kind of we cringe at them having these crazy screen times. It's like, what else is there? Yeah.

Is there a lack of moral direction or adult guidance or something? Yeah. I think, um, I think in the modern world, like adults, they view everything is like imposing on their children. So we, we kind of became suspicious of anyone who's authoritative. So we think they're being controlling or like old fashioned. So adults kind of politely stepped back and kind of allow children just to become themselves and act the way they want.

And sounds virtuous. Yeah. And, you know, there's obviously an element of that that's important in parenting. But I think what happened is parents stepped back. So they just became like our best friends. Then religion retreated away from public life. Then communities broke down, neighbors stopped knowing each other. And then if you're an anxious young person, there's no one there. And we got rid of anything that was like more substantial guidance. So I

think if you think of therapy culture today, a lot of people think, oh, if you're an anxious young person, you have more advice than ever. Like you have all this guidance. But I actually think modern culture has very little to say to anxious young people because we got rid of anything more substantial because we thought it was judgmental. So you can't tell someone how to live their life or what to do. We got rid of anything to do with God or religion because that was superstitious. We stopped appealing to moral character and telling them they should improve themselves and be better because that's also judgmental and claiming that there's a right and wrong. And all that we have left is these endless empty platitudes of be yourself, you do you,

you know best. Adults telling that to young people who I think are craving some direction, like there's no clear milestones to adulthood anymore to follow. And so they look to the adults and the adults are saying, you know best. And of course you feel anxious. The anxiety gets worse. That lack of guidance is, I don't know. I, the equivalent for the guys is pick your favorite podcaster or YouTuber or

fitness bodybuilder of choice. And looking up to that, okay, well, it's the missing patriarch that I didn't have. I didn't have a long enough for, didn't understand this world. And I'm going to surrogate that to this parasocial online relationship. But then it becomes someone who doesn't know you. So let's say you have a relationship problem. Like you're a young woman who has met someone and you're not sure about him. The average young woman will now go on YouTube and turn to the dating experts on the attachment style. Yeah. And get the guidance from experts

because they don't have adults in their lives who know them intimately, you know, because people are different, like people need different advice in different situations. And I think it's a real shame that adults who kind of intimately know girls and young women and can give them advice in like a community setting have stepped back. And now of course they're all on TikTok asking each other like, Oh, you know, he cheated on me, is this a problem? Cause we weren't exclusive. Is that a red flag?

Is it there? And it's like, we need some adults in our lives who clearly say, I think this person's bad for you. Um, and I suppose everything, it's great that we have instant frictionless access to all information from experts that maybe even more expert than our parents would be ever and trained and all the rest of it, even if they're legitimate. And obviously there's a lot of room for illegitimate experts to sneak in,

but it is still self-diagnosis and it is still self-treatment from that. You know, if you're learning from TikTok, there is no part of, Hey, why don't we, why don't we sit down? Why don't we, I will give you something as opposed to you will learn from this thing and then go and have to work out what that means and apply it and not be able to ask questions and not be able to regulate with anybody and not have it contextualized even remotely. Yeah.

And your mom isn't trying to get views on TikTok. She doesn't need to, she doesn't need to exaggerate and kind of keep you looking at her channel. Um, you know, I think that's the problem is there are genuine experts who can help, but they are also subject to the kind of pressures of the algorithm. And so they're kind of, I guess, dumbing down what they're saying or make, or presenting symptoms of autism as vague as possible to try and, so as many girls relate to it as possible. You had this breakdown, one of the main causes of unhappiness in the modern world is a culture

that presents other people as obstacles. Heal faster alone, work better alone, find freedom alone. It's such a lie. Loneliness is not empowerment. Is loneliness, uh, pedestalized by Gen Z TikTok? Yeah, I think again, from all different angles. So it's like the mental health stuff, obviously you will feel better alone in some ways because someone, you don't have someone challenging you. You know, if you do actually have problems from your childhood, um, to do with say your parents,

I don't want to say an attachment problem, but it is an attachment problem. Just the wording has been completely ruined. But if you do have that, you kind of need to be with someone to work on it. Because if you're single, you're going to feel great. Cause there's no one kind of triggering you and making you feel anxious and abandoned. So you do need someone in your life in that scenario. So yeah, loneliness then does seem like it's extremely attractive because you feel better when you're alone. The same with the productivity stuff. I think it's just the message that's missing for both young women and young men is like,

it's actually okay to depend on someone and to need other people. Humans have always needed other people and define themselves by their ties and obligations to other people. Now we're kind of like, no, you can, you can be self-sufficient enough and driven enough and healed enough that you're okay alone. And I think that's really quite a strong message for young, young women here, which is like the worst thing you can be is needy. Like do not ever need someone.

And the worst situation for you is to end up with a guy that you need. Like that's just, you need to avoid that all costs. And it's, it's a really sad message because it's like, is that not love to need someone and they need you. And it's kind of a beautiful thing, um, to rely on someone and have someone who's dependent on you and actually a lot of the actual attachment research shows that, have you a flight, the dependency paradox, um, the couples who are more dependent on each other become more independent

in their lives. So there was like studies showing that, um, I think they got couples to do like games or puzzles and then they had to fill out a survey of, you know, how much do you respond to your partner's needs? Um, basically how dependent are you on each other? And the ones that were more dependent didn't want to hear like, I think it was the clues or the answers from their partner, they wanted to do it independently. And then they followed up and they found that the, the couples more dependent on

each other had met their independent goals six months down the line. Why do you think that is? What's the proposed mechanism? Because it's, it's like the original Mary Ainsworth experiments where the caregiver leaves and they kind of measure how the child responds. You need like a stable, secure relationship to feel confident, to go and explore the world, you need to have like something to hold confident to go and explore the world. You need to have like something to hold on to, to step off.

Chaos in both domains is scary. Yeah. You need like something to fall back on. And I think that's a big reason why Gen Z are incredibly risk averse and not resilient is because we don't actually have a foundation to fall back on. So if your parents are divorced and you don't feel that sense of belonging, you're not going to step off into the chaos of the world. You're going to hold back and you're going to find relationships threatening.

You're going to find words traumatic. You're going to be scared by it because the ground is like crumbling beneath you so you can't step off it. Trust really is everything when it comes to supplements. A lot of brands may say they're top quality but few can actually prove it which is why I'm such a massive fan of momentous. They make the highest quality supplements on the planet. Three of the products that I use every day to support my brain, body and sleep are Omega

3s, creatine and magnesium L3 and 8. Dr. Rhonda Patrick and Andrew Hubeman have all extolled the virtues and honestly I try to limit the number of supplements I rely on, but when I have these consistently they make a massive impact on my cognitive performance and my strength and my health. Momentous are literally unparalleled when it comes to rigorous third-party testing, so you can be sure that what you read on the label is what's in the product and absolutely nothing else. If you're going to spend time and money on supplements, you need to make sure that they have what they say they have in them.

Best of all, Momentous offers a 30 day money back guarantee so you can buy anything that you like, try it for 29 days. And if you do not love it, they will give you your money back and they ship internationally. Right now you can get 20% off all of the products and that 30-day money back guarantee by going to the link in the description below or heading to livemomentous.com slash modern wisdom and using the code modern wisdom at checkout.

That's L-I-V-E-M-O-M-E-N-T-O-U-S.com slash modern wisdom and modern wisdom at checkout. What have you learned? It seems like you've done a good bit of work on the attachment stuff, at least in terms of research. What have you learned about what's real and what's bunk from that? Well, I think, I think it's real that obviously your childhood impacts your adult life.

I think that's just plain to see. Um, and I think it's real that you can kind of play that out in relationships that aren't, however your parents responded to you, you'll then take that into an adult relationship. That seems very obvious. But I think where people go wrong now is they forget that, like in the original attachment experiments and the book attached, it's quite clear that it's not a bad thing to depend on someone. And it's not a bad thing to be attached. We are wired to be that way. Whereas I think now where it's going online is like you have a problem if you're attached. Like if you're a young woman who kind of dreams of having a romantic relationship and really wants to

depend on someone, now we view you as weak. There's something wrong with you if that's your ultimate goal because we've had it drilled in so much that dependence is a problem. You see all these people online saying things like, oh, you know, I'm anxiously attached because when my partner feels sad, I also feel sad. It's like, isn't that just like loving someone, you know, you are affected by their emotions or they'll say things again, like, oh, I always put their needs first. So can you train me out of being like a people pleaser? And it's like, we used to just call that love. And, you know, that was a trait that we treasured in people, people who put

their partner's needs first. And obviously that can go too far, but I think the problem is now we only pathologize dependence and we glamorize independence. And we never say, yeah, that being dependent on someone, having a long-term relationship doesn't mean that you lose yourself. You can actually find yourself through that. And we never say, yeah, that being dependent on someone, having a long-term relationship doesn't mean that you lose yourself. You can actually find yourself through that. But I think girls in particular, young women in particular, have just been told, yeah,

the worst thing in your life is to need someone. Did Gen Z have a lot of abandonment issues in that way? Yeah. I think that's where it comes from. And that's why it's especially tragic because you have a lot of young women, for example, whose families fell apart and then they grew up thinking, well, I just want to have that myself. I want to have a loving relationship and a family.

And then they kind of get told, whether it's through therapy culture or some of the feminist stuff online, you kind of implicitly get told that's a problem. Like if you, again, if your dream is to depend on someone, you should work on yourself. You need to work on your self-love. You need to believe in yourself more. You need to be healed alone. And you think of like a normal thinking, feeling young girl, of course she wants to be in a romantic relationship and of course she wants to depend on someone in some way, it's completely

natural. But I think you have young women thinking, oh, I need to get to a position where I'm confident, completely confident alone. I'm healed alone. I don't have any anxiety. Then I can allow a partner in. But I don't see that as the way that people operate. And I think there's a lot of girls now punishing themselves for being emotional and sensitive and wanting a partner and wanting to depend on someone.

Because now the image of a strong independent woman is someone who doesn't depend on anyone and who doesn't get emotional, doesn't get jealous, doesn't care. And so you also have two contradictory messages because you have therapy culture saying to girls, open up more and more about your problems, you know, be more emotional, tell everyone how you feel. But then you also have strong independent women don't care. You know, they never get emotional. And if they do get emotional, it's trauma or an attachment issue.

And it's like, that's a really cruel thing to teach emotional young girls and confusing because it's like, of course they feel that way because they're human. But now they're being told that that's yeah, a medical issue or something that they should heal. I saw you tweet, Kids as young as nine are addicted to porn. Girls as young as 13 are using fake IDs to post explicit content on OnlyFans. A third of those selling nudes on Twitter are under the age of 18.

Can you unpack that, please? Well, I think that's again, a lack of adults. I have this theory I've been thinking about of like, everyone just accepts now that, that parents are overprotective. So there's like the helicopter parenting and the coddling of Gen Z. But I think like parents are weirdly, they're not protective enough, but they're also coddling. So they're like, coddle their children, but not put up proper boundaries or guardrails. There's like no rules, but they're over-involved.

Over-invading in all the wrong areas and totally absent in all of the wrong ones as well. So now it's like, the only danger is like physical danger. It's injury. So parents protect from injury, but they don't protect from something like their daughters being online and posting, trying to get on OnlyFans. I mean, Jonathan Haidt talks about it when he says kids are overprotective in the real world and underprotected online. But I think it's slightly more than that

because I don't think parents are totally protective in the real world because they, again, they've also, I think, kind of internalized this messaging of, I shouldn't get involved, you know, it's not my place. You know, you think of dads now, I think dads are less protective than they've ever been because they can't care about what their daughter wears or where she goes or who she dates because that would be backward. It's her right to do that. But then you look around and you see girls doing that.

You see girls selling themselves online to strangers. And I think what has accidentally happened is feminism pushed this idea of like, girls and boys are just as strong as each other. And then that led to people thinking, oh, so they don't need, girls don't need extra protection, which killed chivalry, but also killed fathers actually protecting girls, because the problem is not like women are weak, it's that girls are vulnerable. But now we think, oh, we should all step back, let girls do what they want.

And a lot of baby went out with bathwater. Yeah. And now you see a lot of chivalry went out with patriarchy. Yeah. Well, we killed good authority. We just killed all authority. And so now you have young women demanding that their universities protect them and demanding that the government step in and

staring at someone becomes harassment on the tube. Because we degraded the authority of men they trust, like good men and hopefully like their fathers and brothers. And we just said, oh, all kinds of protection is patronizing and we don't need it. But then you leave girls completely vulnerable and looking coddled and loved, but actually completely unprotected. There was a great tweet I saw about, um, telling men, telling all men to stop being so pushy doesn't work because the men who don't need to hear it will take it to heart and the ones who do need to hear it aren't going to listen. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, I can't remember where it was, but there was this like scheme. Um, some young women ran on a train where they had these cards. I don't know if you saw it where it said, like, it said, like, I'm being harassed right now, but you hand it to someone and so you could go into, I think it was like the tube station. You could go in and ask for the cards. And yeah, it's like, someone is harassing me.

Yeah, there was all different ones. I can't remember what they were, but it's like in that situation, what is that going to do and it's that in that situation, what is that going to do? And that is actually the patronizing thing. And to expect that to protect girls. But we find it offensive if a man steps forward and tries to help a girl out. I think it's, yeah, we've just thrown it all out and forgotten that part of the feminist message is right, that girls are vulnerable. Um, but unfortunately it just led to a situation where we're like, Oh,

vulnerability means weakness, so they don't need protecting. Why are girls under as young as 13 using fake IDs to, are they, do people want money, is there a status thing associated with this? Yeah, I think it's the status thing. I think girls are now growing up with influencers being their aspirational figures, as we said, I think it's something like 70% of Gen Z girls aspire to be influencers or just Gen Z in general. Thought you were going to say only fans.

No. Okay. But if you look at influencers over the years, they've evolved dramatically. So like when I was 13, I would be watching like Zoella or someone who's really wholesome and didn't really have the same incentives of the algorithms back in the day. Didn't really have the same competition. Certainly didn't have like monetization of her content. Um, so she wasn't kind of exposing herself or talking about these weird

therapy trends or anything like that. But you can just gradually see over the years how it's escalated. Who are some of the more extreme Zoella equivalents now? Or if you don't want to throw names out, you can come up with. I can throw a name. Yeah, throw them out. The woman Tana Mongeau. Tana Mongeau. Yeah.

So she's like a really popular influencer who talks about OnlyFans like it's like, like there's nothing dangerous about it for young girls or nothing to be worried about. She has an audience of very young teens, probably pre-teens, and she'll just post with all the things she's earned from OnlyFans, so all of the designer bags and stuff. On her podcast, she'll talk about being on OnlyFans. And I think talking about commodifying yourself like it's completely normal, that is what girls are growing up with. So they're seeing influences commodify themselves in general, but then commodifying their body.

And also having the nerve to call that empowering. You don't think it's empowering? No. Well, how can it be empowering to even on Instagram, offer your body for judgment and then put your self-worth into the ranks and reviews that strangers give you? You're turning yourself into a product effectively. So this talk of objectifying young women, that is turning yourself into an object on display,

which I think is quite clear to anyone who's not grown up with it. But I don't judge the ordinary young woman for thinking that's attractive because that has been her role models throughout growing up and it's escalated slowly. So it went from Zoella to now only thighs. Bonnie blue, Zoella to Bonnie blue. Yeah. The arc. In other news, this episode is brought to you by Element. Element contains a science

backed electrolyte ratio of sodium, potassium and magnesium with no sugar, no coloring, no artificial ingredients, or any other BS. It plays a critical role in reducing muscle cramps and fatigue while optimizing brain health, regulating appetite, and curbing cravings. This orange salt in a cold glass of water is like a beautiful sweet salty orangey nectar first thing, and it's how I've started my day for nearly four years now actually. I adore it. I keep putting it in my body because I feel the difference and you can too. Also they have a no questions ask refund policy so you can buy it completely risk free. If you don't like it for any reason, they'll give you your money back.

You don't even need to return the box. That's how confident they are that you love it. Right now you can get a free sample pack of all eight flavors with your first box by going to the link in the description below or heading to www.drinklmnt.com. To get all of this, that's www.drinklmnt.com. Why is it that pretty much all of the examples of toxic masculinity from the past, from the past, promiscuity, sexual entitlement, hyper-independence, are all traits that are now regarded as boss, girl, feminist power. I don't know. I think it might be like a revenge thing.

I think young women react to the very worst traits of some men by thinking, I'll just do it back and that will give me the power. So they're like, maybe they've had a string of relationships where the guy has kind of slept with them and then left or something. And then they think, yeah, I'll just do that to the next guy. Or, you know, they look at the men doing that and think, yeah, I'll just do that to the next guy. Or, you know, they look at the men doing that and think, well, they seem very confident and happy. So that's the way to go. I think it's like a defense mechanism of some kind. And also, I think they're probably also

the traits that get you popularity online. So if you look at Tana Mongeau or some of these influences, they are promiscuous. They're quite masculine. They're quite aggressive in their speech because people who talk assertively and in extreme ways will just suit the algorithm. You know, if you're like a reserved timid young girl, you're not going to be the top influencer on Instagram. So I think those traits get rewarded and then they're what girls are scrolling through all day, every day, and they're like, Oh, my favorite influencer is

really like vulgar and promiscuous and she's super assertive. That's the path to success. Yeah. And that's again, that's the model of like the healed, confident woman who's not held back by negative emotion or worry or jealousy or any of these things. Assertiveness is confused for self-assuredness or wholeness, completeness, fixness. Well also promiscuity is like, well I often think now if you're like a reserved young woman who's modest, you're now shamed. Maybe not explicitly, but implicitly people will think there's something wrong

with you because they'll be like, Oh no, you are beautiful. You shouldn't be so like shy about guys. You know, you shouldn't worry about sex. You know, it's fine. Like people will reassure her now as to like, look at her as if she has a problem that needs healing rather than she just is modest. And I think that's what tends to happen is you look at promiscuity becomes so popular and normalized, and then we stigmatize the girls that aren't interested in that or aren't that way.

So yeah, I think if you are a young woman now who's, who holds back't that way. Um, so yeah, I think, if, I think if you are a young woman now, who's, who holds back in that way, it's kind of like if you're introverted and people come up to you and say, what's wrong, you should speak more. And it's just like, sometimes it's just who you are. Um, so I think it's the incentives again, you're almost punished socially. If you're modest and shy and not super assertive and masculine because people think you've got your healing work to do. You need to become more confident and sexual and get rid of all your reservations and repression.

People think you're just a repressed person rather than- Everybody should be Tana Mongeau, whatever she's called. Yeah, like she's like released herself of all her kind of traumas and burdens. Everybody is Tana at zero. Yes. And you just need to try and get back there. Yeah. Is there a wistfulness for times of the past?

This sort of nostalgia for a better time, I don't know when it was, maybe before you were born, maybe when your parents were around or something. Or, I don't know, slightly older generations would have that kind of wistfulness, American dream, et cetera. What did Gen Z think of the current moment? Do they think that it's liberating? Because it seems like there's two things going on at once, that life is horrible and terrible and I have anxious attachment and maybe autism. And also, I'm fully liberated to be myself. I can be whatever I want to be. I can go boss my way through promiscuity and sell my body on OnlyFans and make loads

of money and I don't need no man. Yeah. So which one is it? I know there's like crippling anxiety among young women, but also this really loud, I don't care message. I think young people in general are very nostalgic for a time they haven't known, which is a time before smartphones and social media.

So if you look at like Jonathan Haidt, again he did a survey recently and found that a lot of Gen Z wish things like TikTok and Instagram never existed, which is kind of unusual. You don't really get that with any other inventions. Like he was talking about the bike and like the hairdryer. Like it's really not that level of, I use this all the time and wish that I didn't. And I think there's a lot of that ambient feeling among Gen Z of like longing for a time, for example, when love wasn't like reacting to someone's Instagram story or swiping on Tinder. Um, you know, some young women have never experienced love before it became that.

Uh, like the mystery of having a crush on someone and falling in love. Like now you just, you can't wonder what they're up to. You just kind of skip through their Instagram story or look at their Facebook profile and it's all listed out there. So I think there's a real feeling of like disenchantment with the modern world where it's like everything has become so commodified and cheap. And there's like a nostalgia for a time, maybe that didn't exist, but everyone tells me the nineties were way better.

So I'm just going to assume they're telling the truth, but a time before phones and the internet and the commodification of everything became so extreme. Because now everything I try and explain to people like the very concept of things has changed. So friendship for my generation versus friendship for my parents generation. Friendship now is like your friends online, you maybe have a snap streak that you keep up, you pose for each other's Instagram. You don't really necessarily hang out as much as you used to. There's not really, again, friends don't give each other

guidance or tell each other what to do because that would be rude and toxic. And so the definition of friendship has changed in this era. The definition of love has changed, of flirting, everything. Um, which is why, like you can talk about kids being on screens and it's kind of sad, but like the actual truth of what's changed is insane. And the fact that young people are anxious and can't cope with it is not because they have a disorder, it's because they're the first to try and

feel their way through a completely different world. Yeah. With no rules or strategies or archetypes or stories with a generation that can't relate, doesn't relate. You've just taught them how to use the iPad. What are they going to be able to teach you about how to handle this? Yeah. And that's kind of why you can't blame them for not giving guidance because the

world moves so fast. There's no such, there's no wisdom anymore. You can't pass anything down. So now you just have to keep up with the kids. It's irrelevant as soon as it leaves your lips. Yeah. And so now you have adults like talking like teenagers and using the same social media platforms, being informed of the new trends, which has always been a thing. But now, now it

feels like adults go to young people to get guidance about the world. And that makes young people anxious because they're like, where are the adults telling me what to do? That's a very good question. Freya India, ladies and gentlemen, Freya, I love everything that you're writing. It's really great to see you go from strength to strength. I think it's really important stuff. Where should people go? They want to check out everything that you do? My sub stack is just freyaindia.co.uk.

It's called Girls. And yeah, that's just where I write about girls and young women. And hopefully I'll have a book announcement soon. Exciting. Cool. I look forward to it. Thank you. Until next time.

Bye. Thank you. I get asked all the time for book suggestions. People want to get into reading fiction or nonfiction or real life stories. And that's why I made a list of 100 of the most interesting and impactful books that I've ever read. These are the most life-changing reads that I've ever found and there's descriptions about why I like them and links to go and buy them and it's completely free and you can get it right now by going to chriswillx.com slash books that's chriswillx.com slash books.