Modern Wisdom - #921 - Catherine Price - How To Defeat Your Social Media Addiction

Episode Date: March 29, 2025

Catherine Price is a journalist, author, and science writer. How much are our phones affecting our brains? Our attention spans seem to be getting shorter, and many of us feel more forgetful. So how much of this can we blame on our phones and what can we do to fix it? Expect to learn how many hours a day people spend on their phone, what phones do to our attention span, if Tik tok memory brain is real, the real impact this kind of cellphone usage is doing to our brains and how it changes your focus and much more… Sponsors: See discounts for all the products I use and recommend: https://chriswillx.com/deals Sign up for a one-dollar-per-month trial period from Shopify at https://shopify.com/modernwisdom Get a 20% discount & free shipping on Manscaped’s shavers at https://manscaped.com/modernwisdom (use code MODERNWISDOM20) Get a Free Sample Pack of all LMNT Flavours with your first purchase at https://drinklmnt.com/modernwisdom Extra Stuff: Catherine’s SubStack: https://catherineprice.substack.com/ Website: https://catherineprice.com/ Book: https://tinyurl.com/tnrfk84m Instagram: @catherinepriceofficial LinkedIn: http://linkedin.com/in/catherinepriceofficial BlueSky: @catherine-price Twitter/X: @catherine_price TikTok: @catherinepriceofficial YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@catherinepriceofficial Get my free reading list of 100 books to read before you die: https://chriswillx.com/books Try my productivity energy drink Neutonic: https://neutonic.com/modernwisdom Episodes You Might Enjoy: #577 - David Goggins - This Is How To Master Your Life: https://tinyurl.com/43hv6y59 #712 - Dr Jordan Peterson - How To Destroy Your Negative Beliefs: https://tinyurl.com/2rtz7avf #700 - Dr Andrew Huberman - The Secret Tools To Hack Your Brain: https://tinyurl.com/3ccn5vkp - Get In Touch: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/modernwisdompodcast Email: https://chriswillx.com/contact - Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

How many hours a day are most people spending on their phones? How many times are they picking them up? It's hard to get a firm answer on how many hours with the best statistics I found range between four and six hours a day that people are spending on their phones. If you want to go for the middle number there, five hours a day, it adds up to about 75 days a year. It's really a shocking amount. Yeah. I wonder what the comparison is because that's presumably across a

bunch of different age groups. So if you were to go under 30, I would guess that that number goes up. I would also guess that the hours of sleep would go down under that. I certainly know Luke, who is a good friend of mine and my tour manager. He regularly manages to double his sleep time with his screen time. So he's 12 hours a day on phone, six hours of sleep. Oh, that direction. I thought you were going the other healthier direction. Oh, that's, that's not good.

Does he need an intervention? He's a club promoter. He's like, he's like patient zero for phone use. All of us are. So anybody that used to run nightlife stuff, we just have, we basically were hardwired into WhatsApp and it's very, very difficult to get rid of that. Maybe this is me just, you know, creating an excuse for myself, but yeah, if you grew up being some sort of club promoter type person, you have maybe the worst neural

networks possible for phone use is not good. of club promoter type person, you have maybe the worst neural networks possible for, uh, phone use is not good. That's a separate category. So you have like 18 to 29 year olds, 29 to 40, and then you have like club managers, which is correct. That's good. Well, it's a different species technically. Yes.

I hadn't thought about that. I'm already learning. That's it. Um, and have we got, I was going to say when you look at different cohorts, uh, do boys or men use it more than women do? What have we got about teenagers, young people? Does this tend to sort of fluctuate over time?

Yeah. I mean, the generational thing is definitely true. So everyone is spending a lot of time on their phones, but younger people, which the terms are gen alpha and gen Z, you know, basically up to 28 or 30 or so, definitely higher than Gen X or let alone Boomers. But with that said, I do think that older people get off the hook too easily when it comes to screen time, because I think most of us have probably had an experience when you're with someone in their 70s and they just have their phone out, usually on Facebook, like all the time.

And I recently heard a great word for that, which is screen your citizen. So... Oh, screening your citizen. Very good. Yeah. Very good. Yeah. And I think in terms of gender breakdown, you tend to have different people doing it.

It's all stereotypes, right? But it's like women tend to be on social media more, men tend to be, and young men in particular, on gaming more. So it depends on the person, but those are the general kind of breakdowns. But yeah, I mean, younger people are on their phones more than the much older generations for sure. I suppose what's interesting about this is something I only realized a few years ago, which is phones come in and they take, let's say six hours of our day.

And I'm going to guess that a lot of what's being studied here is not word processes, emails at work. It's much more social media sort of casual leisure time type stuff. But we haven't gained the length of the day hasn't become 30 hours. So that six hour window has had to squeeze other bits of life that 25 years ago existed that has to have been squeezed from somewhere unless you've become more efficient at playing in the

park or more efficient at spending time with your friends or whatever it might be. So inevitably to put six hours of your day onto screens, that means six hours of your day doing something else that's had to go. Yeah, I think the opportunity cost is something that people need to pay more attention to. I will say though that I think a lot of times people are multi-screening and that because I thought about the same thing. How does this math actually work? You know, there's like teenagers are supposedly

spending something like seven hours a day on screen-based leisure that doesn't have to do the schoolwork I'm like how is that possible schools eight hours a day so a lot of it is multi-screening you're watching TV you're also on your phone you're playing a video game you're also chatting like that kind of multi-screening but going back to what you were saying I think that we really do need to think about this in terms of opportunity cost is there are only 24 hours in the day and every time we spend an hour on one thing, let alone six hours, we end up with six fewer hours to spend on anything else in life. And I always say, like, if you are aware of this and you decide you want to be spending that much time on a screen,

it's your life. But I think that for a lot of people, it's not an intentional choice. You get sucked in and then you don't really recognize your life is being stolen from you in these little increments that add up to weeks and months and literally years. How can people work out whether or not their time on screens is something they want to be doing or something they don't? Given that we all do it, so presumably at the time we want to be doing it, kind of. I don't know if we always want to be doing it, kind of. I think a lot of times it's an automatic habit by this point.

We've been so conditioned, and we can talk more about this, but we've been so conditioned to associate our phones with some kind of reward, emotional reward, usually, like the alleviation of boredom or anxiety, that we do it on autopilot and then we get sucked in and we don't even recognize how much time we're spending. But I do think you raise a really important point which is that one of the most effective things you can do if you're trying to quote break up with

your phone as I put it or change your relationship with your phone is to become more aware of when you reach for your phone. And so I do have a couple exercises I always recommend to people and one of them is this mindfulness based exercise I call What For, Why Now, and What Else, so WWW for short. And I always recommend people start by putting something on their phone, like a rubber band or some kind of,

I tell women, like a hair tie. The point being that when you pick up your phone on autopilot, you'll notice there's something on the phone and you'll have a split second of being like, why is this thing on my phone? And that will be a reminder to ask yourself these three questions. And the way that works is you ask yourself what for? Like, what did I pick up my phone for right now? Did I actually have a purpose? Or was it just kind of like an autopilot thing?

And you might have a purpose, but what did you pick it up for? And then you ask why now? You know, is it a time-sensitive reason? Like you actually wanted to send a specific text message or email, or you really wanted to check something in particular or this is more likely, is there an emotional reason behind it? You were bored and you wanted a distraction or you were feeling lonely, you wanted a connection, something like that. Once you identify this reward that your brain is after, that's when you can ask the final question of what else could you do in this moment to alleviate or give yourself that reward that doesn't involve

reaching for your phone? So instead of, I always say, like instead of checking social media for a quote connection, you could actually call a friend or find someone to just chat with. You could take a break by going for a walk around the block. But I also always say to people, you might decide that for your what else, you actually want to do nothing, which is an excellent choice because our brains need more time to decompress from all the stuff we're putting into them.

And then you also might just decide, I want to be on my phone right now. And I really like to emphasize, that's fine. That's the whole point. If you end up on your phone after asking yourself those questions, like you've succeeded because you know it's intentional. And that going back to your original question

is how you know that you're not just sacrificing your life and suffering from opportunity costs, you actually wanted to spend that time on the phone. What have you come to believe about whether it's best to refer to our phone use as an addiction, a compulsion, a habit, a dependency? I mean, largely these are just sort of semantic questions, but I imagine that if you were someone smarter than me who knew what those words meant, that you, that would actually have sort of important distinctions. I don't know that I'm smarter than you, but I will say what I know, which is that at the

moment there's no such official thing as a phone addiction, at least in the States. Like that's not an official term that is recognized by the American Psychiatric Association in their manual of disorders. With that said, they have materials on their site that talk about technology addiction, so that's a little contradiction there. So I always am cautious about straight-up saying that you can have a smartphone addiction. With that said, a couple things. The devices and apps themselves are definitely designed to be addictive because they're modeled directly off of slot couple things. The devices and apps themselves are definitely designed to be addictive because they're modeled directly off of slot machines, which are some of the most addictive machines

ever to have been invented. And also, there is such thing as a behavioral addiction. And gambling actually is the first ever behavior to be recognized as having the potential to lead to an addictive disorder. So if you think about the fact that smartphones and more specifically, many apps are deliberately designed to mimic slot machines and that gambling is considered to be a behavioral addiction, to carry the potential for a behavioral addiction. I personally think it's a matter of time before we officially recognize that there is such thing as a smartphone or social media or gaming addiction.

But I don't think we need to get too caught up in the words because I think there's no question that we are using them compulsively, that we have problematic habits when it comes to our smartphone and app use. So I think you can kind of use whatever words feel right to you, but I always do like to just be very clear for the psychiatrist in the audience to acknowledge that it's not yet a quote addiction. Okay, let's talk about what it's doing to our attention span. Headlines, people being unable to pay attention,

everybody knows this sort of ease of distraction, increasing ADHD diagnoses. Has there ever been any research looking at what phones directly do to attention spans? I am not sure that there's been research done that actually has two groups of like a randomized controlled trial of you're going to look at your smartphone for three hours a day and you are not. Although there are some interesting longitudinal studies that are ongoing

about the effects of screen time on children's brains in particular. But I will say I have done interviews with attention researchers such as Gloria Mark, and I've talked to people about this and done a lot of research myself. And I think it would be kind of ridiculous to think that they were not having an effect on our attention spans. Probably the number one complaint people bring to me when they say that they're having problems with their smartphone is their attention span is shot. They can't focus anymore.

They can't read a book. They used to love reading books. Now they can't even make it through a magazine article. And I think it makes total sense that our smartphones are training us to be distractible for a number of reasons. One of them is that our brains actually want to be distractible. Our natural state is not a state of concentration, it's a state of distractibility. And that makes evolutionary sense because if you think about it, if you are totally concentrating on one thing, like the pages in a book, you have to shut out everything else. Otherwise, that is what attention and concentration is,

is the choosing one thing to focus on and ignoring everything else. That's great if you're reading a book, like where I am right now in this room, it's safe, it's quiet. But if I were an ancient human and there were actually things that might want to eat me, I actually want to be tuned into distractions because they might represent threats. A real life example of that, I was once walking on the street talking to my husband on the phone and I was very absorbed in my conversation.

I did not notice when a car pulled up with a group of teenagers in it and one of them got out with a gun and walked toward me and mugged me. So that's an example of how concentration actually can be a bad thing. My point being, that's our brain's natural state. It's where our brains are always going to want to drift to distractability.

It takes a lot of work to be able to sustain your concentration to do something like read a book. So if you introduce this device that is basically a nonstop stream of distractions, that's going to have an effect. And it is distracting us in two ways. You have the fact that your smartphone is pulling your attention away from your real life experience and the way that my phone was when I got mugged. So that's a distraction training you to go back and forth and back and forth. But if you think about what we're doing on our phones themselves, we are not

reading books for the most part on our phones. We are looking at short posts, tiny bits of content, headlines like you're saying, videos that are 15 seconds long. And every time we do that, we're training our brains to be more and more distractible. So the analogy I always use is that it would be as if instead of going to the gym and doing the hard work of working out and developing muscles, you actually had a trainer, your phone, that was encouraging you to lie on the couch and eat potato chips, like what you wanted to do anyway. So yeah, but one thing I will say that is a moment or a note of hope is that when people do start to break up

with their phones and make a point of trying to get back into the habit of attention building practices such as reading or meditating, it's actually astonishing how quickly their attention spans can come back. So if anyone out there is like, I am a god, like a no hope, there is hope. It does take work, but I've actually personally been surprised by how quickly you can start to see the effects.

Yeah. How possible, you know, a lot of people listening will identify with the terminally distracted person who feels like their phone has broken their brain. And then now some sort of some weird prisoners dilemma, Stockholm syndrome from themselves to themselves, this thing in the pocket. How possible is it to retrain our attention span if it's been nuked by phone use? I think it's very possible, but I think you have to want to do it. So the two things I always recommend to people, well, in general, I say try to build an attention

building practice into your day as often as possible. The easiest thing to do is just to put your phone in a different room and read a book. So I always say you can get two birds for one stone if you get your phone out of your bedroom at night and then put a book on your bedside table where the phone used to be, a book that you want to read. And then it will be easier to reach for the book than it will be to go get your phone. So you can spend the time during your bedtime routine when you normally would have just scrolled reading instead and you can build in some practice for your attention span there. It's going to be hard at first, but be patient and kind to yourself.

You also can do something more formal, like actually do something like a meditation practice, mindfulness meditation in particular, where you're focusing on one anchor, like your breath or sounds in the room or bodily sensations and just coming back to it over and over again. Excellent way to build your attention span, but I know that not everybody wants to or feels they have time for meditation. So it can be as simple as reading a book. And I'd also recommend just try to do one thing at one time, you know, at a time. I noticed for myself that like I'm always like brushing my teeth while making the bed. Neither is as well done as it could be

as a result of that multitasking. So just getting in the habit of trying to do one thing at a time can be very helpful in helping our brains start to quiet down a bit and be able to tolerate sustaining our attention for more than five seconds at a time. Yeah, I remember when I first started trying to read as a proper adult after university,

maybe 29 at this time, and I'm thinking, I'm starting to listen to podcasts and I'm starting to sort of take intellectual curiosity a bit more seriously. The classic party boy tries to be less of an adult infant, manopause type situation that lots of guys go through. Yes, I've witnessed that. I did not have a name for it guys go through. Yeah. Yes. I've, I've witnessed that. It did not have a name for it, but I witnessed it. Yes. Manopause. Um, manopause.

Um, and I sat down, I remember when I sat, one of the first times that I sat down to try and read my fingers were moving just a little bit like this. And I realized that I was just so used to overstimulation and I'm looking at this, you know, totally static white piece of paper with black words on it and my body is just no, my nervous system is evidently regulated for bings and bongs and banners and the stuff moving and I, you know, these words don't even change. It's just the same words.

And then if you don't read them, then they don't go away. And, um, yeah, that was, you know, I sort of felt that. Did you swipe the page? Did you try to swipe it? I wasn't that much of an idiot. That being said though, you know, going back to the compulsion addiction dependency habit thing, everybody knows what it's like when you're on a plane and you know that you have no signal.

And you get the phone out and you swipe up and you do the things and you do the thing and you do your little loop around whatever the apps are. And you realize how futile it is. And then as you put it away and then you take it with like a, a sharp shooter, pulling it back out of your pockets. So there's definitely something going on there. Those myelin sheaths that we've got a pretty sort of deeply ingrained. Um, on the plane also that moment when it's like, you may now turn your cell phones

on and then you hear that, but I will say, um, no, I've seen videos of small children, toddlers trying to swipe magazine pages. That was a serious question. No way. It's an iPad. Yeah. Wow. Wow.

Um, dopamine detoxes, you said sort of retrain attention span, be mindful with your use, try and do some proper mindfulness, keep your phone outside of your bedroom, which is the number one life hack that I've been hopping on about on this show for as long as I can remember. Just put the charger, take the charger now and put it in another room and do not. Try and fucking tell me that it's because you use your phone as your alarm clock. Radio alarm clocks have been around for like 2000 years. So please buy yourself. If not longer.

If not longer. Exactly. Yeah. Get a sundial, you know, get a, get a cockerel. Um, exactly. Get a window. Um, yeah. Take your phone outside of your bedroom.

Uh, dopamine detoxes, another super trendy thing. I've seen lots of videos with millions of plays on YouTube. Are they legit? Do they do anything? Do they work? Well, I don't like things that have millions of views. I shouldn't say that you have millions of views on YouTube, but you know what I mean? When it's like such a trend. Um, with that said, okay, so I don't like the term dopamine detox and the way that I often hear it bandied about. What does I retrace my steps? I mean, insulted my host inadvertently.

But what I would say is that yes, it is a good idea to try to reset yourself so that you are not so short-term focused and so desirous of dopamine stimulation, to put it in a horribly phrased way. Let me back up and explain what dopamine is for a second here. Cause we often talk about it in the wrong way. It's not actually like just pleasure. Dopamine is our brain's way of recording when things are worth doing again and important to pay attention to. So it's really a salience indicator. And the example I always use is that it actually helps us to remember to do things like eat. So if you're walking through the woods and you come across a bush that has red berries on it and you eat those brightly colored red

berries, they don't kill you, they taste good, they're raspberries, your brain is going to release a little bit of dopamine to indicate that it was worth paying attention to that bush of berries and that eating the berries was a good idea to do and that you should do it again. And that means that thanks to that dopamine, the next time you're walking in the woods, your part of your brain is going to have been trained to pay attention for raspberry bushes so that you can repeat the behavior and eat the raspberry again. It actually is evolutionarily essential, dopamine is. It helps us remember to do things like eat, and it's released in response to other things like sex, so very important for reproduction.

The problem is that our brains do not choose what to release dopamine in response to. It's like it's just in response to a trigger more like a light switch turning on and off. So anytime you encounter something that is a dopamine trigger, your brain is going to just release it whether or not it's a good idea and whether or not it's reinforcing a habit that you want. So the thing is that if you were trying to create an app or a product that will hook people, all you need to do is pack a ton of dopamine triggers into that product and people will start to associate your product with receiving some kind of reward because of the dopamine spritz that it's getting. They're gonna seek it out and

continue to use it over and over again. So the machine that has, you know, the most dopamine triggers is the slot machine and as I was talking about earlier, smartphones are deliberately designed to mimic slot machines by having tons of dopamine triggers in them. For example, bright colors, huge dopamine trigger, unpredictability. You'd think we'd want to know when something good would happen, but we're actually far more attracted to unpredictability. Then the anticipation of waiting to find out if something good is going to happen, which

is why we like watching movies better the first time and why no one who watches sports ever wants someone to tell them the final score. This episode is brought to you by Shopify. Look, you're not going into business to learn how to code or build a website or do backend inventory management. Shopify takes all of that off your hands and allows you to focus on the job that you came here to do,

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Can I give you my contrarian opinion on intermittent schedule rewards in that way as well? You may, of course. I think it's one of the reasons why people are drawn to partners that are difficult to date. Oh yes. That's actually, I say in my book that this is, I say in my book explicitly that psychologists call this intermittent rewards and I call it the reason we date jerks.

It's exactly that. Yep. Yep. Yeah. We are singing from the same hymn sheet. Yes. Yes. And so, so to answer your question, do I think that a dopamine detox is a good

idea? I do, because I think that we have been habituated to expect constant, I don't know if spritz is the right word. I'm not a little sprinkling, little sprinkling. We're habituated to receiving dopamine stimulation from dopamine constantly from our phones. And that leads to an issue where real life can start to seem boring. And a lot of people who spend a lot of time on their phones experience this.

You were experiencing that yourself when you found yourself like, you know, twitching physically when you were trying to concentrate on a book. So it can be very useful to reduce dopamine triggers in your life so that you can kind of bring your baseline down a bit back to what would be considered more normal. With that said, I don't know that the kind of the Silicon Valley version of a dopamine fast is what I would recommend where, you know,

people are like not eating and abstaining from sex and like not watching TV. No eye contact. No eye contact. Raw dogging flights by just looking at the flight map on loop. Yes, exactly. I mean, I don't know if that's your thing, go for it. But I think that a more effective or more useful thing to do for most people is just to change your relationship with your phone.

Because honestly, that's the main source of what I would consider to be quote unhealthy dopamine triggers. It's your screens. Real life dopamine is actually there for a reason. And I think it's actually kind of good to habituate yourself to seeking out real life dopamine triggers, you know, of the sorts that sometimes people try to avoid as well. Yes, yeah, no, I agree.

I did a very comprehensive DNA analysis toward the back end of last year that everyone listening will be sick of me talking about, but it was so interesting. I'm one of the clusters of alleles that was identified that is non-typical for me, like less than 10% of the population have got, is this particular combination of them, not just individuals that are 10%. When you roll them all together, you realize just how genetically individual all of us are.

It's like 10%, 9%, 10%, 3%, 1%, 10%. You know, and you're like, when you start to add all of these together, it's very, you know, it's like one in 7 billion. Um, and mine very, very epinephrine, norepinephrine, dopamine, uh, struggles to clear adrenaline quickly, may find it difficult to stop tasks once they've begun. It's like super internet degen focused energy. And for me, dopamine is just the sort of drug that my body runs on largely. Um, and you know, that's not to say that the, um, epigenetic, uh, situation, the

soup that I've existed in for the last 36 years, uh, has or hasn't activated those fully, I don't know how much those switches are on, but I certainly know that there's times where, um, you know, you just get locked in on something and you can't stop, but as great as that is, you're conscientious. You're able to focus on tasks. This is really, really good. You're driven. You want to go and chase new things. It's like, yeah, man, but that same drive can be hijacked by Instagram or by

YouTube or by world of warcraft or by a lot of stuff. And, um, it's, I like that you used the. Berry picking analogy. I remember learning about information foraging. Oh yeah. Did you look at that study? Was it squirrels in trees with nuts? I mean, probably they do a lot of, I think it was, I'm thinking about the

distracted mind by Adam Ghazali and Larry Rosen, where they talk about how human beings tend to forage for information in the same way that animals forage for food. I imagine it's probably even one of those guys. I remember this was on Sam Harris's pod, fuck, like six, seven years ago. And, um, there's a, an equation that can be done. Let's say that you're a squirrel looking for nuts in a tree. Okay. Just imagine for a second.

Yes. Um, and you are able to create a create an algorithm, an equation, which is how many nuts have been found in the tree, how many nuts are left in the tree and how far away is the next closest tree. And from that, what you're able to basically create is a predictive model about when the squirrel is going to abandon this tree for another one and try and find the nuts in the next tree, because it's working increasingly hard to find increasingly few nuts, but in order to go to the next tree, that's far away. And yeah, the information foraging idea, I think it's just so interesting

because for almost all of human history, we had less information than we wanted. And then there was, there was one day in mid 2010 when the amount of information humans desired and the amount that was available perfectly matched up. Then almost immediately the internet just blasted straight through that ceiling. Now here we are all with attention spans of 0.3 seconds. Yeah. I'm trying to fully inhabit my squirrel brain right now, but it is as if that equation got messed up where suddenly you'll never run into nuts on the tree.

You'll never go to the other tree because it takes more work to get to the different tree and the tree you're in is like occasionally popping up with new nuts or in the case of information, it's always popping up with more nuts, lots of nuts. So why would you do anything else? You can continue. I mean, yeah, we've all gone into internet rabbit holes or squirrel holes, maybe we should call it. That's not so much dirtier. Anyway, where you're like, what happened? I spent an entire day once, an entire day, searching for kitchen faucets online. I mean, granted, I was working on a kitchen renovation,

but I remember being like, oh my God, it's getting dark. I'm psychotic. I have a problem. Yes. Someone needs to intervene in my new. Wasn't there something I heard you talk about? Was it Victorian doorknobs as well? Well, yes. I also was very into Victorian doorknobs, if you must know, and just architectural elements, because I find those to be more interesting than the standard things one might find in Home Depot. But I did spend a lot of time on eBay looking at doorknobs and hinges after my need for doorknobs and hinges had actually been satisfied. Yeah. Bouncing from tree to tree.

I think I watched an entire 16 minute long video once on how to make like, it was like sushi roll. No, it was soup dumplings so that I could make fake soup dumplings out of like play-doh with my daughter. And that's when I was like, I don't think that, I don't think fake soup dumplings out of like Play-Doh with my daughter. And that's when I was like, I don't think that, I don't think that was necessary. Yeah. I don't think I needed that. It's a waste of time. What about memory?

What's, what's phones doing to our memory? I've heard of TikTok brain before. Well, our phones are messing with our memory in a lot of different ways. I will highlight some of them for you. One is that in order to make a memory, you have to have an experience, right? So if you are on your phone in the middle of a social interaction, you're not actually in that interaction. I mean, if you're on your phone in general, all you're really experiencing was whatever is on the phone. So they're blocking experiences to use John Height's terminology. And so if you're not having an experience to begin with,

there's nothing to store. That's one way that they're impacting us. Another way they're impacting us is that our phones and the amount of information they're feeding to us at all times are seriously taxing our working memory. The part of our memory that's holding on to, for example, trying to remember a phone number or trying to do math in your head, that's your working memory. It's very easily overwhelmed. And so when your working memory is overwhelmed, you're also not going to remember things very well. That's happening all the time where we're trying to keep track of too much stuff. But one thing I find particularly fascinating that's not talked about is the impact that constant distraction has on long-term memory storage. So as I was

just talking about, you obviously can't remember something if you didn't experience it in the first place. But the process of actually taking a short-term memory and getting it into the form of a long-term memory in your brain requires your brain to create new proteins. And that actually is easily interrupted by distraction. And so if, and we've all had this happen where you're trying to remember someone's name at a party, you get distracted for a second, you no longer remember their name afterwards. That's interesting in and of itself, but the thing I find truly interesting is the impact this could be having on our ability to be creative and have insights and deep thoughts. Because if you think about

what an insight is, I think it's the ability and creativity, the ability to take things that don't seem like they're connected and make connections between them. But that requires having raw materials to make connections with, right? So if you don't have any raw materials, if your mental pantry is bare because you haven't stored long term memories you're not gonna have anything to have an insight. Make an insight out of so i find that to be one of the most upsetting potential effects that are screen time is having on us is that is making us a dumber as a society and as individuals because we no longer have. The raw materials we need the memories we need the experiences we need to have stored in order to be interesting, insightful people. And as a side note, I thought when I first came up with that insight, I guess of my own, I thought, am I being too dramatic? Maybe I'm being too dramatic. And then I had the weirdest fact checking experience of my life where I sat down on a train

between DC and Philadelphia here in the States. And there was an old man sitting across from me and I couldn't figure out who he was, but I somehow knew he was relevant to my work. And I eventually figured out it was Eric Kandel, who happens to be the Nobel prize winning biochemist who got the Nobel prize for discovering among other things that creating long-term memories requires the creation of new proteins in your brain and that it can be disrupted by distraction. And so I said, and I quote, holy shit, out loud on the Acela, raced across the aisle, knelt down next to this old guy. He was like, oh hello. And

I was like, I wrote this book, I was just talking about your work. Like I literally had just been talking about his work at a conference. I'm like, is it insane to say that the disruption of the creation of proteins in the, you know, in the formation of long-term memories might be having an impact on our ability to be creative and insightful as a society as a whole?" And he said, yes, I think that makes sense. Yeah, it was so weird. Yeah, well, the energy match of an old guy chilling out and you being very excited with your new book, I imagine was exactly what he wanted.

I mean, that will have made a memory for him. I imagine that that's something that stuck in his mind and mentioned. I certainly hope so. I was like, wow, what are the, but I will say one of the reasons I noticed Eric Candell sitting diagonally across from me on the train was that I wasn't looking down at my phone. So it was very reinforcing for my own, my own beliefs in what I already believed in and what I'm trying to convey through my work.

Confirmation bias is a hell of a drug. Confirmation bias, but I mean like confirmation bias with like a Nobel prize winning biochemist. So I think it's like good confirmation bias. Elite confirmation bias, yeah, exactly. Yeah, like legit. When I first started the show, one of the things I was really interested in learning was why life seems to feel like it speeds up

as we get older. So Susanna Hallinan wrote some really great stuff on this, bunch of people, and Gretchen Rubin did some stuff and uh, basically what I came, I may be wrong. Neuroscientists may disagree with me, but this is my bro science theory. Uh, novelty and intensity, uh, two pretty, um, easy ways to, uh, what people mean when they say life seems to be moving very quickly is I don't remember where the time went. I think that's a better way of putting it because by design, time always moves at the exact same pace.

Even if you're traveling near the speed of light, for you, time is moving at the exact same pace, even if you're on the edge of a black hole. So your experience of time is at the exact same pace. It's your retrospective memory of what happened during that time, which is what you're kind of referring to. And there's some points around the fact that as you get older, things just don't seem as new. And I'm like, well, that's just novelty and probably intensity as well, that you just

don't get as excitable about stuff because things don't have that sense of novelty. So anyway, I would like, you know, I think one of Susanna's pieces of advice is never take the same walk twice. So try and sort of turn left when you turn right, just go down that street or that side, you know, go left around the tree instead of going right around the tree when you're taking a dog for a walk, just little bits of novelty that you can and the intensity piece as well. And yeah, I get the sense that because, and she uses this really lovely example to explain how a lack of novelty and a lack of intensity compress memories down into a single memory. So for the people that have got a commute that they take to work every single day, apart

from that one time there was a car crash or that one time that somebody was set on fire on the tube or that one time that it broke down, you know what I mean? Like apart from those times when something novel and intense happens, your last four years of work, you know, maybe a thousand journeys to a particular place and a thousand journeys back from a particular place, kind of just compressed into a single memory, like tell me what happened four Thursdays ago on your drive to work, unless it was something novel and intense, you probably can't remember it. Why?

Well, because what did you, in order for you to be able to remember your life, you have to do things that are memorable and worth, worthy of remembering. And if you're not, what do you expect your brain to do? It's very lazy. You have to give it a reason to do this stuff. All of that is to say, I think that largely our experience of our phones is, it is your commute to work for four years doing the same journey with nothing happening. Sure, you're given the illusion of novelty and there is genuine novelty in there,

but it's at such a low level and the actual environment that you're inhabiting is from a stimulation perspective, so surface, it's so shallow that I don't think, this is all to say that your point around, if you're using your phone while you're having a novel experience, you're watching some band of yours that you've been looking forward to seeing for forever, you're watching a sports game, you're at your kids' basketball tournament, whatever it is, and the phone is out, I think your brain is going to pattern match. I've seen this before, the screen that's very salient,

that's driving the dopamine. I don't need to pay quite so much attention to what's going on. And if nothing else, how much mental ram have you got to be able to, you're that capable of parallel processing that you're able to, with one eye pointing in that direction see your son score a three pointer and with this eye you know watch TikTok. In other news Manscaped has

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I do think our experience of time can be modified by what we're doing. It can seem to go fast. It can seem to go slow, even though it's objectively moving at the same speed. And I think that, yes, to talk about what you're talking about, novelty certainly is going to help create new memories. Because novelty, again, is something that makes evolutionary sense for us to pay attention to because it might indicate a threat or a source of food, something important to know

about. So we're going to pay attention to and remember novelty. And again, that relates to dopamine. So that is an aspect that's going to happen. Another thing is that a lot of things that are, well, actually everything that's happening on your phone is not a full body experience. You're just processing it intellectually

and usually just through your eyes. And I think that's another reason that we don't remember things as well that happen on our phones because it's not a lived experience in the same way. There was no physical sensation. There was no, maybe there was a sound associated with, but it's just different than an embodied experience. I'd also say that I've heard from so many people that taking a break from their phones,

so for example, I often recommend people experiment with taking a full 25 hour break for their phones as part of the breakup plan in my book. But time seems to slow down when people do that. It was something I noticed the first time I tried it with my husband. We started off the night, we put away our phones at like 5 p.m. on a Friday, got super anxious. All of a sudden our brains were like, oh my God, you need to check this. You need to do this.

You need to buy this. And we're like, okay, brains, calm down. We tried to tolerate that distress, went to bed, woke up much calmer in the morning. And then I remember around 11 o'clock in the morning being like, how is it only 11 o'clock in the morning? You know, we got up, we made breakfast, we had coffee, we had a conversation, we went for a walk, we played with our daughter. I was like, how is it only 11? Normally it would be three o'clock because normally I spend my time on my laptop. And I've heard that experience from so many people that taking a break from screens

made their perception of time slow down. And I asked someone about this, who David Greenfield, who founded the Center for Internet Technology and Addiction way back in the late 90s, I think 1997, so way ahead of his time. And he works with people. I guess he does use the word addiction, but he works with people who are having serious problems with screen time. He said one of the saddest parts that he sees of what he calls technology addiction is that people's perception of time changes so dramatically. Life seems boring. But what he said is when you're on a screen, you kind of dissociate from your actual life. That dissociation actually

makes your perception of time speed up. All that is to say that if you want to slow down your life or your perception of your life, figuring out how to not spend so much time on screens can be a really useful tool. And you also made me remember there's some quote, I'm not going to get entirely right. I think from William James, who wrote the principles of psychology in 1890. And I'm sure you've talked about a bunch on your show before, but he talks about, yeah, as time goes on, our. Basically, our experiences start to smooth out and time speeds up. It's

this very depressing view of what happens as you get older. And so I would say, yes, that's a very common, I mean, everyone feels that way that suddenly gears start to speed up. But one thing we can do to fight back is to put away our screens and make a point of, as you're saying, seeking out novel experiences. I would say seeking out fun. We can talk more about that if you want. That was my follow-up book to how to break up with your phone is called The Power of Fun. But the more of these real-life embodied experiences that we're having, ideally with some, well they will by definition have an element of novelty because no real-life experience is ever the same

twice. That's actually going to make your life feel less like a smooth necklace and more like a necklace that's made up of little beads that each represent a different experience. And that will in turn make it feel like your, like all of those individual little memories will actually make your perception of time different. And I would say that we all have experienced this

in our own lives. If you think about how much better you remember your vacation, if you were not on your phone during your vacation, if you went on a really good vacation, you probably have so many more memories and it probably seemed much longer than the same week or two week period did when you were just in your regular life, spending most of your day staring at a screen or just going through the same routine over and over again. Yeah, it's crazy.

I always made this point when I stopped partying so much. I was like, I ran nightclubs for a long time. So, so I heard you're a different species. That's it. Was that in your DNA test or did they not pick that up? No, they did. They did. Yeah.

It's the, the CLB cocaine gene, I think was actually in there. It was strange. Um, that world, when I got toward the end of it, I realized I'd been away on a lot of holidays in my twenties with the guys. I, we'd been to Vegas, we'd been to Ibiza, we of it, I realized I'd been away on a lot of holidays in my 20s with the guys. We'd been to Vegas, we'd been to Ibiza, we'd been to Spain, we'd been wherever. Some, maybe including me, a bunch of times would go and get so blackout drunk

that we could have been anywhere on the planet. This experience could have happened literally in the pub down the road, but we decided to get on an 18-hour flight to Vegas to go and stay in a hotel and do all of the things. And you sort of create this physiological cocktail that's so potent that it's able to rip you out of the thing that you went there to do, to do a thing that you could have done somewhere else. And it's kind of the same as if you go on holiday, you have the beautiful

honeymoon, you've spent all of the money you've had all of the time and you are kind of choosing to restrict your ability to make memories, to be in the moment from this thing. You could have just scrolled your phone at home. Like if you want you to go there to do it. I mean, you know, you did a domestic honeymoon. I'm sure that your wife would have been thrilled at the prospect of that. So just sort of continuing down the stack of impacts that phones have when it comes

to happiness, health, more sort of physiological changes, what's going on there? I mean, it's not good. There's so many ways that phones are, I think you were giving me the time to talk about all the ways that phones are impacting us. You touched on relationships and they're having a huge impact on our relationships, on our friendships, on our romantic relationships, how we find romantic relationships. But I mean, I hear from so many people who are so hurt and so upset by how their partner or their boyfriend or girlfriend or wife or husband or whoever, like how they're paying attention to the phone instead of the other person and

that their partner doesn't seem to get why this is such a big deal. And I always say, if you feel like your partner or spouse or whatever's use of the phone is causing a problem in your relationship, you are right. Like I want to validate that it is a problem. They are ignoring you in favor of this third party in your relationship. It's having an impact. I think it's ridiculous to act like it's not having an impact. I think it's ridiculous to act like it's not having an impact. You know, I personally, I, God, this is one of the bad effects of having written this book. I can't unsee it. I always say to people, like, be careful before you read my book or be careful before you start listening to this podcast or, because you're going to start seeing things

differently. And I always say, it's kind of like seeing a family member naked. Like, you can't unsee it. So my god. Yep. Once you start noticing how many couples are out to dinner and have their phones on the table, once you start noticing how many families have given a phone to their kid or everyone's on their individual phones scrolling, you can't unsee it. It's honestly upsetting.

Anyway, so that's one thing. They really are impacting our ability to be close with the people we care about the most. And if you feel like you're being impacted by that, you are, and you're, you should be listened to. So that's one thing. We touched on sleep. Phones are having a huge impact on our sleep. That's a big deal. Not only does it make us tired, but sleep deprivation, you know, affects our cortisol levels. Cortisol, as I'm sure you've talked about a lot as

well, is a stress hormone that's very important when it comes to our physical survival because cortisol does things like elevate our heart rate and our blood glucose levels and our blood pressure. Great if you need to run away from something, not great chronically elevated over time. Chronically elevated cortisol associated with increased risk to everything from you know heart attack and stroke to type 2 diabetes, obesity, the list goes on. Well when you're sleep deprived and that's defined as anything less than like seven or eight hours a night, it increases your cortisol level. Therefore, sleep deprivation is associated with the same long-term health risks as elevated cortisol caused by emotional stress. So that is one of the many ways in which phones are affecting

our physical health because they're getting in the way of our sleep. And you know, when you look at a phone, one of the ways that they do that is that the light that phones give off is a very blue light. Blue light is the same as daylight. If you're looking at a phone or a screen before bed, you are essentially telling your brain that it is daytime and that your brain should be awake. You're essentially giving yourself jet lag. So that's another way it's getting in the way of our sleep. Also, like you were saying, people use their phones as their alarm clock. That means that they're checking, they're touching their phone first thing in the morning because you have to touch the alarm to make it silent. So then you're setting your whole day up on the terms of whatever was waiting for you on your phone.

So phones are dramatically impacting our emotional state for the whole day. It's like the first thing we're doing is probably seeing a stressful notification on the phone. I could go on. There's so many other ways. But I think one thing that's not talked about enough also is that phones are fundamentally changing who we are as people. I should be more specific, I should say the algorithms

on some of our most popular apps are actually training our brains in ways that change who we are as people, how we behave, what we pay attention to, what decisions we make. I once read a book that was about algorithms and how algorithms influence our lives by a professor at the University of Pennsylvania

at the business school Wharton. And he said that he did an exercise with his students where he had them go through their day and figure out how many of their decisions were influenced in some way by an algorithm. From the time that they woke up in the morning, like if they had a smartwatch that picked the time in their sleep cycle to wake them up,

to how they got to school, like did they use a map app? How did they choose the clothes that they wore that day? Was it because they randomly wandered into a store and pick something that they wanted themselves or is it because something was recommended to them or they saw a photograph and a sponsored post on Instagram? How did they find the person they're dating and are in a relationship with, etc., etc.? you start to realize, as he put it in that book, that algorithms are silently rearranging our lives. I think that that is really important for us to keep in mind. Obviously, free will is its own discussion of whether or not we have it to begin with,

but I think when you interact this much with algorithms, there's no question that even if we had free will, we're giving it up to algorithms. That becomes even more of a concern when you consider the increasing role that AI and chatbots that are encouraging us to get into relationships with them are having on our lives. But to me, that's maybe the most upsetting thing of all the effects on us that our phones and apps are having is they're fundamentally changing the experience of being human. You released a version of this 2018. Another one is coming out 2025, but I feel like it is available now.

It is available now in all good bookstores. But I imagine that there'll need to be another version probably very quickly within the next two to three years once AI has fully kind of got its grip on social media, have you thought ahead? Have you got an idea? Everybody was worried 12 months ago, 99.9% of all content on the internet is going to be AI generated. As of yet, I don't know if that's something that's happening. I don't know if getting into relationships with chatbots is something, I have my own

pet evolutionary psychology theories about why that's not going to be a concern. What have you got in terms of predictions for how AI is going to change our relationships with our phones, screen social media dopamine, stuff like that? Yeah, well, first of all, thanks for raising my anxiety levels about having to create a new update of this book in two years. Kristin, really appreciate that. Three in a decade, that's what you've got to do. In a decade, no, we'll just have things implanted in our brains by

that point. Yeah, so I have thought about AI. It keeps me up at night frequently and I very much value my sleep and get nine hours a night at least. So this is upsetting to me that AI is already impacting me in that way. It's going to have a huge impact on how we interact with our phones and apps or more specifically how we spend our time, I think. So, you know, Tristan Harris, who's the former product philosopher at Google, who now runs the Center for Humane Technology, he was featured in the social dilemma, the movie about social media. He used to talk about how social media in particular was a race to the bottom of the

brain stem where the goal was to steal our attention from us. He now talks about what he calls the, not the attention stem, where the goal was to steal our attention from us. He now talks about what he calls the, not the attention economy, but the intimacy economy, which is not porn, which people often think when I bring it up, but it's rather creating an algorithm that makes us feel as if we are in a relationship with it. And so we start to interact with it, not as a machine, but more as a person.

And we are very vulnerable to that psychologically. We are built to want to trust things that and to answer questions about ourselves and want to get psychologically intimate with people. If you have an AI chat bot that is able to do that, I actually am deeply concerned about that. There already have been plenty of examples of people who become obsessed with the boyfriends

or girlfriends they've created for themselves on things like replica or character AI. There are teenagers who have died by suicide as a result of the relationships and the interactions they had with some of these chatbots that they created. But I think that it's very easy for me at least to see a situation in which it really can become a form of mind control. If you can get into a relationship, like say I was a bad actor, like a foreign adversary or something, what better way to have mind control over entire population

than to get people to have relationships with a chatbot driven by an algorithm that I've created. It's a good way. I mean, if you think the birth rates are declining too quickly already, this is, this will really plummet them. Well, that's true too. I mean, people are definitely not having as much sex as they used to because of their phones. Have not seen studies specifically looking at that, but like, that's true too. I mean, people are definitely not having as much sex as they used to because of their phones.

Have not seen studies specifically looking at that, but like, let's be realistic. They totally are. Anyway, the AI thing, I don't know, I would push back on, I'm interested to hear why you don't think it will be a problem in terms of relationships, but I've noticed that it's even started to get pushed out. I mean, the aggressiveness with which some

of the social media platforms are pushing these things is kind of crazy. Like I hate social media platforms are pushing these things is kind of crazy. Like I hate social media, as you might have gathered by my line of work, but I did look at Instagram the other day and I noticed a very buxom suggested for you person, quote unquote, in the middle of my feed after one post. And I thought, that's interesting. I wonder why they're suggesting that person to me.

She had like a flower in her hair. It was kind of a Hawaiian look. I'm like, oh, it's not a person, it's an AI chatbot. And I clicked into it. So now my Instagram thinks that I've been chatting with- You've been pixeled. That's it. You're going to be retarded for the rest of time. Yeah, exactly. It's very funny. But I just was like, oh my God, they're pushing this. Another thing Tristan Harris pointed out is that this was two years ago. So ancient history, Snapchat had started to pin an quote AI friend at the top of people's friend list. And one thing he made, a point he made in a talk he called the AI dilemma is that that AI friend is always available. That AI friend wants to keep talking about your problems with your girlfriend.

You know, that AI friend is always there for you. And I even started noticing this myself, you know, what if I use chat GPT for something or like ask for feedback on stuff. It's so affirming. It's never like, Hey, Catherine, actually, that's a really dumb idea. It's always like, great point, you know, so I can easily see many of us falling into the ease of these fake interval. I don't know, I guess they're real interactions, but our interactions with these AI many of us falling into the ease of these fake, well, I don't know, I guess they're real interactions, but our interactions with these AI creations versus the awkwardness that it takes

to have a real life relationship or the discomfort. Or the- Somebody who's unpredictable and sometimes doesn't think that your ideas are amazing. Yeah, exactly. And I'm sorry, I'm rambling, you got me on a thing. But I will say also that I recently rewatched the movie Her with Joaquin Phoenix.

I don't know if you've seen that. I watched- Oh, you haven't seen it? What's that? What's that other one about the billionaire guy who gets the coda to come and live with him? Oh, oh my God. Deus ex machina. Yes.

I watched that on a plane. Have you seen that one yet? I have not. It's too much. It's pretty close to the bone for you, for your work, your line of work. But seriously, like her, I believe came out in 2013. It's about Joaquin Phoenix falling in love with an operating system, which is basically an eight, what we would now think of as an AI, you know, character. And I remember seeing that around 2013 and thinking, wow, that's really crazy. Like that'll never happen.

I watched it like six months ago and I was like, holy shit. That's like, that like a year from now. Like it's so spot on and so upsetting. In other news, you've probably heard me talk about Element before and that's because frankly, I'm dependent on it. For the last three years, I've started my morning every single day the same way with Element

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Now I actually- Question though, first, what do I call, I'm not a bro. So what do I call my reasoning? I don't know what- You can be bro. You're a bro. You can be a bro. It's basically any type of bro science is just, this is me postulating a totally

unsubstantiated idea that I thought of while I was in bed. That's what it means. Oh, okay. It's a notion. It's a, you could say I have a notion. Yeah, I have a notion. Um, my notion is at least for men, I don't know if this is the same for women. I would actually guess that when you're talking about females and female

attachment, uh, they will be the ones who have a, maybe a higher risk of something like a chatbot because of the level of sort of emotional affection and attentiveness. The reason that I think it's not so much of a risk for men is the same reason that guys don't flex the OnlyFans models that they subscribe to as if they're their girlfriends. And it's that very fundamental to the reason that men look for a partner is the signal that they have been chosen, that presumably this other individual could have selected

a variety of men, but they selected me. And the issue that you have with subscribing to OnlyFans is that anyone with the price of a cheeseburger can, per month, can subscribe to the OnlyFans. And the same thing when it comes to a chat bot, that there's no prestige associated with having an AI girlfriend. Now, it may be able to sedate your feelings of loneliness, it may be able to do whatever,

but I don't think, at least for men, at least for most psychologically typical men, I don't think it is a long-term viable solution. Now, my white pill take, my white pill- I don't think it's a solution. I don't think anyone's saying it's a solution, but sorry, go on. Something that's just going to be, sorry, a solution in that it would satisfy their desire for connection and attachment in a way that would preclude them from actually going and seeking in the real world over a long amount of

time. I don't think because there isn't the prestige, there isn't the amount of selection that's gone on that all of that being said, I do think there's a white pill here, especially when VR comes online and if we can get good chat bots, good VR headsets, etc. I think that you can create, whoever does this will be very, very rich. If you could gamify the flirting process with a very highly dexterous, accurate virtual dating environment where you can say and move and it can detect body language and tonality and what you're saying and it can respond in real time.

Dating is one of the few things you don't get to sandbox. You know, you can practice free kicks for football all day long. You don't get to practice going up to that girl in the bar. You just have to every time that you try to practice it is game day over and over and over and over again. Whereas I think that overcoming approach anxiety, which is one of the myriad of reasons why I think there is a sex recession at the moment, overcoming that, if you've been, dude, I'm level 55 on flirt AI. Uh, I got this in the bag.

I'm like a black belt or whatever. Um, and I genuinely do think that it would help to give guys the confidence to be able to overcome that approach anxiety. So there are some white pills in there. Why would you buy? So I hear what you're saying and I hope that's true. Although I also sounds like you're like the reason guys want to have girlfriends is because it makes them look good.

Putting that aside, you know, hopefully some men also more reasons. There's many, many, many reasons. A couple more reasons. We can talk about that later if you want. But I don't know. I think I genuinely am concerned even at the level when you start to hear some of the voice chat bots that already exist and you start to see some of the... I haven't seen any of those. All I've spoken to is chat GPT. I'm going to guess that it gets much more... Oh, if you want to flirt with a fake thing, you have a lot, you could have a great night because yeah, you can do exactly what you're talking about.

Yeah, exactly. Oh no, this is, this is a bad influence. What if this podcast is the turn, your life turns for the worst, but like it's, it's already possible to do that. I mean, my, I haven't used VR headsets that do this, but there's such already like the realism of the voices of being able to have an interaction with like a AI generated voice, like that already is so sophisticated,

even within the past couple months, that you could easily spend your evening tonight having a quote phone conversation with a you know beautiful and then I think you know maybe right now the video is not quite there but give it six months like I actually genuinely think it will be quite possible and in many cases more appealing to a lot of people to have those relationships and I would also say again going back to the scam idea that you can scam people by doing that so if you think about what's happening to older people in terms of financial

scams but also people taking terms of financial scams, but also people taking advantage of lonely women or men who really want to feel wanted and love, but it's so easy to have them fall in love with a fake character, whether just to be a dick or because you're trying to scam them out of money. Yeah. Imagine if Andrew Tate had had access to this AI technology when he was sex trafficking a couple of years ago. That would have been insane.

Well, that's also really terrifying, right? Like, and then, oh my God, we could get dark very quickly. Welcome to what it's like in my head before bed. It's like not fun. It's amazing. I was getting nine hours of sleep. I was going to say nine hours of sleep. Imagine what could happen if I wasn't this dystopian.

Ten hours. Ten hours all the time. What else is happening sort of more deeply to you? Happiness, health, memory, attention spans, stuff like that. Sort of beliefs, sense of self, existential crises. Like is there, there must be something that, cause you know, all of this are kind of sort of disparate contributions, but it's not, it's not necessarily talking about our felt sense of ourselves, what the story is that we tell ourselves about this.

We're talking about a polarized world. We're talking about people that struggle to talk across the aisle, the, you know, risk aversion that people have got about all this sort of stuff. What about what's happening more deeply? What deeper changes are happening to us from our use of screens? I mean, I think all the things you just mentioned are pretty deep, you know? Like, look at what's happening in the United States right now. We're so polarized.

It seems impossible to talk to someone across the aisle and there's so much misinformation. I think one of the biggest impacts is that there's no shared definition of the truth anymore. And actually a story comes to mind that seems relevant. I was at TED a couple years ago when some of these first AI things were being rolled out. There was a company that had this like deep fake Tom Cruise and they had these videos, deep fake Tom Cruise. And part of the reason they chose to do a deep fake of Tom Cruise is there was someone on their team who kind of looked like Tom Cruise. And so

they had him do stuff and they used AI to make it look like he was really Tom Cruise. But I remember talking to him and trying to ask, I was like, are you at all concerned about what you're creating? Because it's like all fun and games of all you're doing is pretending to be Tom Cruise doing stuff. But you're essentially making it so that we no longer can trust that anything we see or hear online is true. And what happens to society and the world when we can no

longer trust anything unless we were there in person? And he was entirely not willing to engage in that. He actually stepped into my face, I think if I was a guy, like there was a group of people watching this, I actually think he would have punched me. He did not. But he was like, this is no different from just photoshopping a Christmas card. It was like a weirdly antagonistic interaction. But I think it was a very valid question. An obvious question that I was asking is like this generative AI stuff that we're using now, like we're playing with fire.

Like you can see what's happening to us. We're in, I mean, it's terrifying to think the direction that the world is going in, the world that, you know, the direction of the United States is going in. Regardless of what side of the aisle you're on. I think that this is, again, fundamentally changing who we are as people, who we are as a society, how we treat each other, how we spend our time. And it deeply bothers me.

I mean, thank you for listening to me, because my husband is a little tired of this conversation. It's just like all the time. Yeah, okay. I've stepped in as a surrogate ear to hear the complaints for a little while. No, look, I, the- I mean, do you feel that way?

Are you like us? Okay. You seem upset. Yeah, look, the 10th episode that I ever did on the show was with Kai Wei, the founder of the Light Phone. This was, I think episode eight was called A Hacker in Your Pocket, How Your Phone is Stealing Your Attention. This was all off the back of Tristan Harris'

first conversation with Sam Harris. And that was my first introduction to him. And then he go on to get his Netflix show. And then he goes on Joe's show a couple of times, once with Daniel Schmackenberger, which was like a really odd conversation that I thought was super interesting, but I didn't predict. And I've been worried about this for a long time.

I have, I would say over the last seven years since thinking about this deeply, kind of got pain fatigue with it, that you sort of run out of steam a little bit. And there's so much stuff that's capturing your attention. The lack of novelty of complaining about the same thing over and over again, you know what I mean? Which is presumably why your husband switches off because you've been talking about this since 2018.

No, no, he doesn't really switch off. I just think he's like, I'm like, hey, you want to chat? And he's like, I know where this is going to go. He's like, I'd rather read the book. Yeah. So look, I am, I'm really concerned. I have been concerned for a long time. I would go as far as to say that the most, since 2013,

the most reliable New Year's resolution theme that I have made has been some form of digital minimalism that I have tried to create different structures. And some of them have worked really well. Sleeping with my phone outside of my bedroom, I've done since 20, I don't know, 18, 17, something like that. And it's one of the most worked really well. Sleeping with my phone outside of my bedroom, I've done since 2018, 17, something like that, and it's one of the most powerful habit changes, like single decision habit changes.

I think I go as far as to say, I think you get an instant 20% improvement in your quality of life just by making that one decision because your sleep improves, your morning and evening routine improves, like all of that millions and millions and millions of things. And I am, you know, I am concerned about this. I also had Stuart Russell on the show. Stuart wrote the textbook, the AI textbook that was translated into, I think, 130 languages and was the one that every person,

every AI programmer read. And he taught me this interesting thing. I'd love to work out whether or not it's true with you, which was algorithms have two ways that they can become better at getting us to click on things. One of them is to better predict our desires. So to learn what it is that we like and to put more things that we like, even if

it's stuff that we hate, but learn what we click on and put more things that we click on in front of us. The second way is to nudge our preferences to be more predictable. So he was teaching me about this sort of dyadic relationship that you have where if, because all it is, is the black box has one optimizing function, like click through, right? And maybe watch time for YouTube, something like that. And it will find ways to do it that are relatively novel. And one of the really novel ways that he thinks is happening is it's not just that it needs to become better at predicting what you want,

but that it can make you more easily predictable. Is this something that you've looked at? You know, I think it's a different way of saying what I was trying to get at before, and I like the way that you're phrasing this. It's very interesting because this is what I say when it's changing what it means to be human, and it's changing who we are. It's exactly what you're saying, because I think I'd never thought about this particular way. The optimistic way to look at this is that algorithms are learning who we are and predicting what we want. That gives us a lot of agency. That is happening, but I think what's happening more and more is exactly what you're saying. They're actually changing us to be more predictable. It's this homogenization of who we are. And I've heard that

from so many people and you see it around all the time. If you look at how I think all people but if you think about young women in particular that kind of the Instagram look I mean people are literally getting plastic surgery to look more like influencers on Instagram. That's a physical example of what you're talking about. The algorithm fed them more pictures that showed them quote beauty of a certain kind and they're actually shaping their bodies with the scalpels to look like that. So yes, I think that's really important to recognize. And I think the result is that you end up going back to what we were talking about before

in terms of memory and creativity, you end up with a much less interesting society. You end up with people who are more the same, who don't have independent creative thoughts, who all look the same and think the same and act the same and talk the same because they're being fed stuff on algorithm by algorithms. Much more homogenized culture. Someone wrote this, I really should go back and, and read it.

Someone wrote this article about why, where have all the Emo's gone. And it was basically the, the death of subcultures that in order for you to have a sort of fashion, philosophical, musical subculture flourish, it needs to have time to stick about. And when you think just across the course of a single year, like it's Hot Girl Summer, then it's Feral Girl Summer, then it's Brats summer, then it's, you know, and it's ding, ding, ding, ding. There's no time for it to ossify and sit and really sort of establish what the boundaries are.

This is what we are, and this is what we are not. And this is the kind of person that is this kind of person. And you sort of acute, like a little cult type thing, a passive cult that kind of accumulates people. And, uh, you know, Goths, Emo's, sporty kids, whatever. I don't know. This may be a, I am not down with the kids moment, but I don't see, I see a much more homogenized young people culture now.

And, um, I get the sense that that's because the pace of change is super high. I get the sense that that's because the pace of change is super high. Also, you don't have as much opportunity to actually individuate because everybody is everything. Everyone is seeing all people across the world. It's this sort of Western, Hollywood, polished come America influence. And that's kind of it. That's it, it, it, across the world.

Yeah. I think that that's, that's true in many ways. I think also that the subcultures that do exist, if they start to become an identity that exists online, that itself can start to get homogenized. You know, when you see people who are like goth and you're like, well, there's a look. Like everyone looks the same within that subculture. It's kind of interesting to think about. I also think it's interesting to think that the rebellion, what is rebellion today

for young people? One of the biggest forms of rebellion is to not be on social media and not be on these platforms and to take a conscious stance and public stance that you are not going to be part of that culture because you want to maintain your own identity, which I think is interesting. And it actually gives me some hope in my bedtime ruminations. If I think there's a growing number of young people who are like, I actually don't want to be like everybody else. And one thing that defines what everybody else means is constantly being on your phone, on social media in particular.

And so I'm going to take a stand by not doing that. And I'm going to become a unique individual because I am not part of that. What has been the, or what are the highest impact habits that you still rely on now, six years hence, seven years hence to help with phone use? Well, for sure. Keeping my phone out of the bedroom and charging it in a, I charge it in the closet and that's really helpful. I also don't have problematic apps on my phone, you know, like for me email and the news are my biggest problems. I'm not, I've never been sucked into social media so I

don't have email or the news on my phone. It also just doesn't make sense to type an email with your thumbs, like that's just annoying. So making my phone as boring as possible is very useful. I would also say mindfulness has been enormously helpful for me. I've done a lot. Some of my previous work was about mindfulness, mindfulness-based stress reduction. So basically just training myself to notice my own emotional triggers and to notice when I'm on my phone and then to non-judgmentally ask myself, do I want to be on my phone right now? So doing the www, the what for why now, what else, exercise with myself, that has been very useful.

I will also say though that a big thing I think is missing from a lot of these conversations is that we focus so much on taking the phone away, but we don't talk about what are we going to replace it with, because you're going to end up with this huge void when you stop using your phone so much. And this is what I went through myself and what many people I speak to go through, people who go through the breakup plan on my book are like, oh my God, all right, I reclaimed time for my phone. Now why am I existentially depressed?

Which is what happened to me. So I think we really need to focus on what do we want to pay attention to? You know, I mean, because one thing, my biggest personal takeaway from writing How to Breakup with Your Phone was that our lives are ultimately what we pay attention to. Because we only, as we were talking about, experience the things we pay attention to. We only remember the things we pay attention to. And so anytime we're making a decision in the moment about where or how we're spending our attention, we're making a much bigger decision about how we want to spend our lives.

And that to me was so important. I'm not a tattoo person, but I have a bracelet that I had made that actually says pay attention as a reminder to myself. Because I think that that, you know, how we spend our days is how we spend our lives. Like it adds up. But I think that one of the biggest things we need to do is to really figure out what is our what else in a broader sense, not just the what else in the moment when you automatically reach for your phone, but what's your what else in life? Like what do you want to be spending your time and attention on?

And I would also say the more you can figure that out and the more you can prioritize those things, the less you're going to want to spend time on your phone, your screen time will naturally decrease. And so I actually think one of the, this is a long way of answering your question. One of the most effective things I've done is to really try to think about what do I want to spend my time on and to make space and time for those things and then screen time naturally decreases. And also the more fun, genuine, what I call true fun, I can talk more about that if you want, the more fun you're having in your real life, the less attracted you're

going to be to your phone because you're going to realize that it is actually not real true fun. It's kind of like junk food and you want more of the good stuff. There's some really interesting stats around people that get bariatric surgery and out the other side of it, the suicide risk is really, really high. Now bariatric surgery is a pretty big deal and sometimes the American healthcare system leaves gaures in them and, and surgical equipment and there's complications and that, you know, there's a, there's pain and there's things like that.

And then, you know, after any major surgery, there's a bit of a suicide risk. But with bariatric surgery, gastric bands, it's way more. And the, one of the reasons for that is that people had an emotional problem. They ate to stop themselves feeling the emotional problem. They now have a restriction how much they can eat and they still have the emotional problem. So that one coping mechanism has been taken up, their primary coping mechanism has been taken away from them.

And it made me think about the phone situation that being a human is hard. It made me think about the phone situation that being a human is hard. You are permanently in states of mild discomfort, uncertainty, fear, anxiety that just appear as a natural byproduct of, of day-to-day life. And you use your phone as a crutch, your buttress to help support you through these times, to distract you, to give you something else to focus on, to make you feel good, to give you a little drip of dopamine. And yeah, if you aren't prepared for the sort of impending emotional existential crises that's maybe going to smash you in the face, you're going to go back to the path

of least resistance, which is to pick your phone up again. Yeah, no, I completely agree. And yes, it leads to existential despair. It makes me think of the reason that people use drugs and alcohol in particular, right? It's to avoid pain and seek pleasure. Like we're trying to soothe ourselves and get rid of pain. And as you're saying, pain and discomfort and awkwardness and distress are inherent parts of the human experience. And our phones are serving, I truly believe, as drugs. So going back to where I think of like, can you be addicted to your phone?

That's one of the reasons I think, yes, you can, because we're using them as drugs. If you take away the drug, you're going to have withdrawal and you're also gonna have to deal with whatever it was that you were using the drug to deal with. And that's really hard. So I, you know, I'm in the midst right now of running this phone breakup challenge

for my subscribers on Substack. We're spending a whole month going through the 30 day plan of the breakup from my book together. And it's been very interesting because one of the main things people have been talking about is how they're excited that they're spending less time on their phones but they're noticing their levels of anxiety

and distress are increasing because they've taken that source of soothing, you know, self-soothing away from themselves. So I truly believe that breaking up with your phone and creating a better relationship with your devices will change your life for the better. But there's going to be a dip. Like I do tell people, you're using these things for some reason. They're serving a purpose. You know, you're mindless scrolling.

It's there for you're doing it for a reason. And if you remove that, you're going to uncover what that reason is. And you do have to be ready to deal with that. But I can assure you that if you can get out of that pit and discover what you truly want to spend your time on, you're going to feel more alive, not like great all the time, but you will feel more alive. You'll feel everything more. So good.

Catherine Price, ladies and gentlemen, Catherine, I really appreciate you. I want to bring you back on. I need to talk about fun. I've been formally trying to bring more fun into my life and all of the stuff that we do as a Brit. I feel like we're culturally predisposed to be a very unfun group. So it's interesting. You're funny, but not fun.

I would love to talk with you more. I mean, the funny, the funny compliment, please come on. You're I need you. It's interesting. You're funny, but not fun. I would love to talk with you more. I mean, the funny compliment. Please, come on. You're making me blush. But yeah, fun. I'm going to bring you back on and we can talk about that, but let's leave this one here and bring it into land. People might want to sign up for the mailing list, for the sub stack.

They want to check out the book. Why should they go? What's going on? My sub stack is called How to Feel Alive, and it's where I write about how to scroll less and live more, you know, phones, fun, community, all those things. So that's KatherinePrice.substack.com and that's my main internet home. And then the book we've been talking about is called How to Break Up with Your Phone and it is available. I hope wherever books are sold.

Everywhere books are sold. Everywhere books are sold. Katherine, until next time. I appreciate you. Thank you. I get asked all the time for book suggestions. People want to get into reading fiction or nonfiction or real-life stories and that's why I made a list of 100 of the most interesting and impactful books that I've ever read. These are the most life-changing reads that I've ever found and there's descriptions about why I like them and links to go and Buy them and it's completely free and you can get it right now by going to chriswillx.com

Books, that's chriswillx.com slash books