Modern Wisdom - Best Peptides, Stem Cells, Testosterone & Exercise Hacks - Biohacking Roundtable - #1148

Episode Date: September 10, 2026

In this Biohacking Roundtable, we explore: What the best peptides for health & muscle building are. The latest biohacking tech that is real but sounds like science fiction. Which longevity supplements offer the most bang for your buck & are worth your time. The best diet and foods to eat to maximise longevity. and much more… Guests: Dr Gabrielle Lyon is a functional medicine physician and Founder of the Institute of Muscle-Centric Medicine. Ben Greenfield is a biohacker, coach, author, speaker, and Ironman Triathlete. Brigham Buhler is a healthcare entrepreneur, founder and CEO of Ways2Well, and co-founder of ReviveRx Pharmacy. Sponsors: See discounts for all the products I use and recommend: ⁠https://chriswillx.com/deals⁠ Get 160+ lab tests for just $365 and save an extra $25 at https://functionhealth.com/modernwisdom Get up to 20% off Timeline’s leading longevity and cellular health supplement at https://timeline.com/modernwisdom Get up to $350 off the Eight Sleep Pod 5 at https://eightsleep.com/modernwisdom Get 10% discount on all Gymshark products at https://gym.sh/modernwisdom (use code MODERNWISDOM10) Get ChatGPT to explore ideas, solve problems, and learn faster at ⁠https://chatgpt.com Timestamps: (0:00) Science-Backed Peptide Regimes (6:47) The Health Hacks Scientists Actually Swear By (21:37) Do Heat Shock Proteins Really Matter? (24:02) Why Resonance Breathing Is So Powerful (27:17) Are MUSE Stem Cells the Next Big Breakthrough? (36:23) Are GLP-1s Causing Too Much Muscle Loss? (45:23) How GLP-1s Could Be Changing Desire (54:12) Why Has Testosterone Become So Demonised? (1:07:07) Should We Be Prioritising Testosterone? (1:12:43) The Fight Against the Peptide Ban (1:24:19) Health Freedom vs Protection: Where’s the Line? (1:29:37) Is Plasmapheresis the Next Longevity Breakthrough? (1:36:16) The Best Cost-Free Longevity Interventions (1:44:44) Is Proteinmaxxing Overhyped? (1:49:32) Is Fibre the Next Big Health Trend? (1:58:24) Inside Ben’s Longevity Diet (2:06:17) How Eating Speed Impacts GLP-1 Release (2:07:31) Does Fasting Actually Work? (2:10:28) Which Longevity Tools Are a Waste of Money? (2:20:54) Should Microplastics Be Listed on Packaging? (2:25:10) What’s the Next Big Biohacking Trend? (2:33:52) What is EMF Exposure Actually Doing to Us? (2:39:30) Do Air Scrubbers Actually Improve Your Health? (2:47:39) Should Everyone Get Genetic Testing? (2:49:49) Where to Find Everyone Extra Stuff: See me live in the UK & Ireland this October: ⁠⁠https://chriswilliamson.live Get my free reading list of 100 books to read before you die: ⁠https://chriswillx.com/books⁠ Try my productivity energy drink Neutonic: ⁠https://neutonic.com/modernwisdom⁠ Episodes You Might Enjoy: #577 - David Goggins - This Is How To Master Your Life: ⁠lnkfi.re/SN-Goggins⁠ #712 - Dr Jordan Peterson - How To Destroy Your Negative Beliefs: ⁠lnkfi.re/SN-Peterson⁠ #700 - Dr Andrew Huberman - The Secret Tools To Hack Your Brain: ⁠lnkfi.re/SN-Huberman⁠ - Get In Touch: Instagram: ⁠https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx⁠ Twitter: ⁠https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx⁠ YouTube: ⁠https://www.youtube.com/modernwisdompodcast⁠ Email: ⁠https://chriswillx.com/contact⁠ - Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

People of the UK and Ireland, if you are coming to see me on tour, I want to hear from you. I want to know what problems you're dealing with, your worst first date, and any questions that you've got for me. And I will be bringing some of you up on stage to talk about it. So if you're coming to see me on tour this October, go to Chris Williamson. Dot live slash stories, submit them and I might see you with a mic in front of your face very soon. Chris Williamson.com.com slash stories. Everyone tell me what peptides you're on. That's all I care about. Let's go. Which day of the week?

Which time of the day? I view peptides as a little bit more of like a condiment that's in your refrigerator that you might use for a specific reason and don't follow an exact protocol every day. For example, when I travel, I use thymus and alpha one, which I'm on right now, as you can tell, for any, for the immune system. Yeah. I keep around BPC 157 and TB 500 for injuries. I run a couple of times a year a Tessimerellin Ipermerellin with C.JC. 1295 cycle for growth hormone. And those are the biggies. Oh, CMAX and C-Lank, intranasal.

C-Max is a little bit more of like a cognition, brain-derived neurotrophic factor booster. And then C-Lank is more of like an anxiolidic. So kind of an upper downer. It's like my version of Valium caffeine. What he said. Pretty much that protocol I agree with and I tell everyone the answer is not at the bottom of a peptide bottle like diet lifestyle nutrition. Living by the principles first, these are like additives that can help optimize your health, especially with our food sources and how stripped they are of the nutrients. The only compounds that I think I take that you didn't discuss as IGF LR3.

I don't know if you've ever messed with that. Insulin growth factor LR3. So a lot of people take growth hormone historically, but the reason they were taking growth hormone was in an effort to get all the therapeutic benefits that growth hormone gives you when it converts to IGF. And so if you were to use the peptide IGF, you get all the benefits of growth hormone, but with a much better safety profile that will not impact your natural growth hormone levels. And so that's why I'm a huge fan of IGF. Does it have like a similar like pure HGH, you get a little bit of almost like a glucocortacord. where there's a surge in cortisol, your resting glucose tends to be higher. A lot of people don't sleep as well at night because it goes on a downstream pathway. Do you skip out a lot of that?

Yeah, you do skip out a lot of that. But bigger than that is you're not impacting your natural growth levels. So, you know, you're still in your four. I'm in my 40s, so 46. So I want to be cognizant of that. But anytime I come off, like, so I'll go on for four to six weeks. And then when I come off, I'll cycle on to CJC and some of the other things you discuss just to boost my natural growth hormone levels. So I have the simplest protocol here, sounds like. I will

microdose gLP one once in a while for inflammation. I think there's going to be new emerging research. I was actually at the protein working group summit 3.0. And that is like the Oscars for nerds and protein scientists. I just invite only 100 of the finest scientists that are doing protein research and there were topics of discussion like what are the challenges that we face. But more importantly, I sat with Arnie Astrup who discovered GLP1's impact on appetite. So he was essentially responsible for what we now have is this obesity, now not called obesity sargopinic epidemic, GLP1 use, which again, I am totally for GLP ones, but that is cool. You said you're, you're microdosing it for inflammation.

Yes, and there is going to be new emerging research that it is going to have an impact on cancer, they believe. That low dose of GLP-1, we don't totally know. He believes it's through inflammation. And this was the guy who discovered GLP-1's effect on appetite. How do you know that it's not just a reduction in the turnover of food? We don't. We don't. Eating less cancer-causing food. It could be. It could be.

But that remains. Well, the second leading cause of cancer, well, age is the leading. cause second to that is obesity. And then so if you were able to address aging and obesity, then you're naturally going to reduce the risk of cancer. So I think there's definitely going to be a correlation to the weight loss. Obesity is one of the biggest risk factors for cancer. Inflammation independent of obesity as well, just eating. How many bros you know that are relatively lean, but they're turning over tons of sugar, they're just training it out of them, or they're still young, the metabolism is still kicking.

Right. That's one of the possible benefits of intermittent fasting is autophagy and giving, giving that like reactive oxygen species production a break. Yes. I have microdosed with GLPs before on flight days. Like there's something about just like quiet food noise. You don't really have access to great food anyways. I don't want to be distracted by food or think about it. I'm sedentary anyways for most of the days. So even if I could eat, it's probably not the best scenario for me to be eating.

And so when I say microdose, like I don't know how much you mean. I'm talking like 0.25, and to contextualize that, like a normal dose would be, what, 8, 10, 12 milligrams. A hundred degrees of something like Redent's depending on. It's crazy that you see that. So it is good trouble like. So it is a good travel. Because what you're saying is what we've seen anecdotally.

Like, because we're at over 70,000 patients now in the patient population as a whole at Waste well. And a lot of the patients are now doing microdose, GL-1s, and they say that they see a big difference in their inflammation. And I think that that is what we're going to find more. And I think the bigger point that we have to make is that the, are here to stay. Whereas other medications, there's never been anything nearly as revolutionary. And, you know, in the 90s when they had the food guide pyramid and then all of a sudden, obesity

hit. Yeah. Yeah. We are at the precipice of trading obesity for sarcopenia. Right now. What's sarcopinia for the people who are too big to people who are too frail? Decrease in muscle mass and strength. And we've seen it, right? Your parents all of a sudden get frail. Your grandparents get frail. And if we're not careful, we're going to miss the early warning signs, which I think that we're seeing with people out in Hollywood, we're just seeing a transformation. You nailed it in the book.

I read your book and you talked about where it's not necessarily that we're under-muscled. We're also under-muscled. It's not just that we're obese. We're under muscle. That's right. And if we can maintain lean muscle mass and bone mineral density as we age, it is one of the

leading indicators on health span and longevity. What are some biohacks or some interventions that you use or believe in, but you don't have any data to support. What are some of the things that you're like, I fucking love this and I know that it works for me? The doctor in the corner is shaking ahead. We'll give it to the fucking bro scientists.

Let's go. Biocharger, have you ever seen this? Oh, my God, I have one. Borrowed one from Tony Roberts. Oh, I have one. The doctor backs me up. Wait, no, I don't. I don't.

Don't. Don't rope me into your bullshit. Facebook marketplace. Wait. No. Okay. So I saved a patient's life and she said, pick any piece of equipment that you want. And she keeps talking about this biotarger.

She's like, my sex drive is up. It's like the best thing ever. I'm like, okay, well, I already have a sauna. I already have a coal plunge. What about the biotratured. Yeah. But so I got a, I have a biotarger. How did you find it?

Great. My husband, he's like, I feel this. I mean, who knows. It does. It does red lines? But does it work? PMF. Radio frequencies based on a Tesla coil,

surrounded by 12 noble gases in twos. And there's zero clinical data, but. You can hold a cool fucking lightsaber. What did you think of it when you used it? I think a parasite recipe, like a insominee recipe. And like all that stuff is this, like a raisin brand. You think it works. Okay.

The raisin brand recipe works. For what? For what? If you're constipated, been traveling, whatever, you sit in front of the raisin brand recipe for the last 12 minutes and you literally have like a turtle head. I want to hear what's not. I want to hear most swift experience with Chris. I got research on it.

I went, I went, I went to Tony Robbins house. He said, he's got one in every room in his house. Apparently, I don't know why. And we, I got lent one for a month or so. I noticed no difference. Did you use it? Wait, did you use it, though? Consistently, semi-consistently.

He didn't use it. But you can't, like, you put your phone near it and your phone starts fucking glitching out. Yeah. Wait, but did you use it? How often did you use it? I don't know. If I'm supposed to use it.

Okay. Wait, I have two other half. I have two things. Okay. And then I've got. got one more. You might know more about this. That she is so fine. So I, so there's something, and you probably know way more about this than I do, but I got lent a windback machine. Have you ever seen that? It's like some

tech heart therapy. Do you know what that is? I don't know what both of those were. Okay. Exciting. I don't know. And it's, so you don't know what it is. I don't know what it is either. Well, what is it? Well, it seems like it has some, it's like not quite EMS, mess, but it has some high radio frequency. It is, but it's not exactly. It's called tech heart therapy. What do you do? It's patches?

So there's patches, but I've been using it for my hamstring. And it seems to- Does it have like a controller that's producing electricity? It does. It has this, yes. And I was hoping that you would tell me exactly how it works, but it seems to do tissue healing. I haven't seen good US data on it.

I think that feeling better has to work somehow, and it's not a stim device. Yeah. I do not know if someone could Google it and see exactly what frequency. I'll send, again. Jared can look it up. What's it called an EMS? No, it's called a windback. Wind back?

Wind back? Win. Yeah. Pull it up and see what they're actually saying that it does. I might have seen something like it before. And it localizes to where the pain is, which is really weird. Yeah. The Roxievalimp.

Have you seen this one? No. Okay. So it's a sound lounge that vibrates for like a vibroacoustic bed that you lay on. That sounds cool. And then it's a lamp. And the lamp has headphones. So it's like an AV cable.

One side is going into the vibroacoustic bed. The other side is going to the headphones. And then there's like 100 different sessions ranging from five minutes to 60 minutes that are like blast off to the moon psychedelic. Like full on mushroom LSD like trip, depending on what you choose with zero biological payback as far as you actually needing to swallow a substance or put anything under your tongue. you lay there, you put on the headphones, you flip it on, you close your eyes, and it whisks you off to another client. And it works. What is it called? Wait, what is it on?

So it's like, if we were to talk about the proposed neural benefit, it would be based on what's called light sound entrainment, meaning shifting you into different brain waves based on the light and the sound. It's called a rock siva. It's a similar to a shift wave without, it is like a shift wave, but imagine if the shift wade didn't just have sound, because the shift weight is super cool for people listening or watching it vibrates. It doesn't just vibrate. It fucking shakes the roof. It's lined with nose.

I've got one at the house. And the cool part is it will guide you through breathwork sessions and specifically like the breath holds you can go like 25% longer just based on the distraction of the vibrating chair. And you're wearing a

fingertip monitor for HRV and your HRV climbs through the roof where you're doing this thing. Imagine that plus flickering light. That's also designed to just like whisk you off into a completely different state. There's a session called rebirth and they actually recorded like whoosh-wishing sounds in mom's womb and the fetal heartbeat and you put on the headphones, you close your eyes, you lay under this thing and it feels like you're just like primarily being whisked back into

this like fetal state and you lay there for 45 minutes and sometimes you fall asleep, you're in and out of consciousness. And then the last five minutes, minutes, you get burst and the music crescendos and all of a sudden, like, everything starts beating and the lights get brighter and your heart rate speeds up and you get this dump of adrenaline. And then you're just like out and then everything goes dark and you sit up from it and you just feel like you'd go conquer the world. 2 p.m. in the afternoon. That's fucking.

Wow. I was so into that story. It's pretty cool. That's fucking cool. Does it work? If you use, I mean. I've used the shift wave. The shift wave's not as comprehensive as that.

There was an interesting thing around the sounds from Mother's womb. I had Stephen Porges on, the polyvagal theory guy. Oh, very interesting. He came up with the Safe and Sound Protocol, SSP, you're familiar with that? So this is a mode of nervous system re-entrainment, and it's a combination of kind of meditation with, you actually have a facilitator who is halfway between mantra, meditation, psychotherapy and like sound wave work I guess and breath work and one of the things that he taught me which is fucking fascinating the soft gentle reassuring sounds that mothers give to their kids is the frequency

in which the safe and sound protocol works as well one of the weird things is that's the you mean the same like sound frequency yes like the tone yes so interesting it's the same for dogs and it's the same for horses and that's the reason that equine find therapy and that humans and horses are able to connect as well and that humans and dogs are able to connect as well. Oh, that's fascinating. Because the sound frequency that mothers and kids have in all of those species are within the same band.

Isn't that fucking cool? What if your mom has a really low voice? She's probably jacked, so it's fine. It doesn't matter at all. What else have I been using? It's been interesting. Hyperbaric oxygen therapy, I mean, I know that this is not super like experimental and it's probably pretty well.

sexy at all. It's that hard shell at what, like 2.2 at a is so good. I don't know what is happening to make me feel the way that I do after I come out of a hyperbaric therapy, but it is 20 minutes on, five minutes off, 100% oxygen on the mask, normal oxygen outside of that 90 minute session down at depth, 2.2 is better than any coffee, better than any cold plunge, better than any anything. There's a little bit of parasympathetic activation too, just from the whole sensory depth nature of it. I did one of Brigham's yesterday and like my tongue

lagging out of the corner of my mouth. But it's just a standard hyperbaric chamber that they've been using an operator's forever. Michael Jackson was using one in like the 90s. Have you guys used the hydrogen bath stuff? I have to use that yeah. I use one and I think there is I haven't looked it up. I just fucking have one. It's just transdermal absorption of hydrogen. But I don't you add a little studies behind it I just use it. You're just getting hundreds of times more hydrogen than a pill. It's so relaxing to me because it's a hot tub. You're seeing a hot tub that has hydrogen in it and you can probably talk.

You need a placebo-controlled trial where you're actually in the hot tub and nobody tells you whether or not they put hydrogen in it. But the idea is that there is some transdermal absorption of hydrogen in a hydrogen-rich environment, either in the air or in the water that's greater than what you would get from like a pill dropped in water. And hydrogen being a selective antioxidant means that for inflammation, for soreness, et cetera. you do feel pretty good afterwards. Yeah, but it's hard because a hot tub you feel good too. I read books for my podcast. And literally, like, my bookshelf on my books to read is in the garage. That's where my wife, how many put the bathtub, in a hydrogen bath with a red light.

And how long do you stay? The red light is great. How long do you stay in? About 40 minutes. Every day? Almost every day, no. The hydrogen bath I was using really intermittently. That was when I was in Lumati.

That's the only place I've ever used. That's where I got my hydrogen concentrator was from them in San Diego. Have you seen Alex Tanava's thing? He's the inhalation. Yeah, Brigham has one. That is, it's the only hydrogen inhalation machine that can go up to that high of a percentage that doesn't use a nasal cannula. So you get a pretty high concentration.

That also doesn't risk fucking blowing up. Yeah, without risk of explosion. You do not be fucking about with hydrogen, dude. But I mean, you put me in touch with Alex and his machine is, fucking out of this world. I don't even know if they're publicly, if they're like widely available. I don't know if they're for sale or not. But it's called... You've been watching on it for a decade. What pushed me over the edge is there's a very, very trustworthy guy in the hydrogen research sector named Tyler Liberon, who I think he founded the the Hydrogen Research Foundation. I think

that's what it's called. And he put his name behind this because he was so impressed with it, compared to all these different machines. A lot of them coming out of Asia. to have low concentration or you can't adjust the percentage or they use a nasal cannula instead of a mask. And so when I asked him about it, he was like, thumbs up. This is the best one in the market. What do you make of, because we've got hydrogen tablets, hydrogen flasks, water, infusion flasks, inhalation, and now baths as well. What do you make of hydrogen, the research around it generally, and then what do you make of those different? I've used a test kit to test the bottle and the tablet and the bottle produces a higher concentration of hydrogen. It's like 8 to 10 ppm,

but the bottles poop out after like 300 uses. So you're going to buy a bottle frequently. The pill is slightly lower. The transdermal absorption, there's not a lot of research on that. The inhalation is the highest concentration that you can infuse into your body as far as what they've actually looked at for hydrogen concentration. What's the proposed mechanism benefits of breathing hydrogen, of putting more of it in your body? It's an antioxidant. So basically it would quell inflammation. It would essentially, because it's a selective antioxidant, it can accept or donate electrons.

So unlike, say, like a high-dose synthetic vitamin C or vitamin E or a non-sortle anti-inflammatory drug, it can actually accept or donate an electron. And so it would be something that would not say quell the hormetic response to exercise. Like after you do a hard exercise session, you're actually not supposed to take high-dose antioxidants. Same reason you shouldn't do a cold plunge. Well, the cold plunge,

you have to drop the muscle temperature by about 1 degree Celsius, which takes at least 10 minutes at a pretty cold temperature. Like jumping in a quick cold plunge or taking a cold shower after a workout, that's not a big problem. It's been overblown because I don't know a lot of people who even have the time after workout to getting a cold plunge for 10 to 20 minutes, which is where the desire. And that's where the research that you blunt, the anabolic response actually happens. So if you're going to do a long cold plunge, wait for a few hours until after the workout.

Do the fuck is a 10 minute cold plunge? No wonder what research is. Yeah. I'm fucking nuts. I do three minutes. So basically hydrogen and methylene blue are two. two examples of selective antioxidants that can accept to donate an electron that would be acceptable for post-exercise inflammation without blunting the anabolic response. Tell me if this sounds familiar.

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just $1 a day to actually know what's happening inside of your body. And right now you can get $25 off, bringing it down to 340 bucks. Get the exact same blood panels that I use and save $25 by going to the link in the description below or heading to functionhealth.com slash modern wisdom. That's functionhealth.com slash modern wisdom. What about talking about the temperature of your muscles being mediating factor, I saw that Brian had swallowed a thermometer, a pill thermometer, and he was looking at the temperature that you need to get to,

yeah, for the sauna in order to get to heat shock protein. and he'd been doing maybe 20 minutes or 25 minutes at 200, but he actually needed to get to 30 minutes at 200 in order to get to that. What was your read on that data? He did. He's also very lean, right? So that's going to be a factor in that he's probably going to need higher temperatures, right?

Quite efficient with heat. Yeah, exactly. Efficient with heat, less insulation. I think it also depends on your activity level in the sauna. Like, I move a lot in the sauna. Like I'm doing pushups and squats and, you know, hot yoga and perineum tanning and, you know, all the things that one does in a sauna. So I think if you're moving around a lot, you can get pretty hot. But he does make a good point in that if you want the actual heat chock protein benefit of a sauna, which is the main mechanism that kicks in at the higher temperatures.

So not just like the detox from sweating or whatever, but the actual cellular resilience effect that you, need a hotter temperature than most likely a lot of people are actually using. With the caveat being, it's kind of a paradox that sauna decreases risk of dementia and Alzheimer's, but when your cranium gets hot and you're getting above about 200 degrees and you don't have your sexy Elvin sauna hat, then you actually increase risk of dementia and Alzheimer's. So he makes a pretty good point that you probably need to go hotter than you're actually going or move more in your sauna or both, but you need to invest in a wool cap to do so. That's the protection.

Interesting. How important is the... And ice balls. I was going to ice the balls. I bought my sons. I forget the brand. Nutsicles. Did you get nutsicles?

I have 18-year-old sons and I want grandkids. That is the thing they say that if you're trying to reproduce, that the hot temperatures can decrease fertility. Well, the crazy thing is when I went to go and freeze my sperm, I was talking about, okay, what do I need to avoid? one of the things that the guy came back to me and said is there's so many guys that go away in a bachelor party and they just hang in a jacuzzi you know like just chilling with their boys for ages he's like that will do so much more damage to your sperm count than a ton of saunas because

you've got direct contact from the heat of the water just like absolutely infusing your testosterone your testicles and chlorine and paribins and thallates and everything else getting not great how important are the heat shock proteins like do we really need those or can you get a lot of the benefits without getting into that? You can get, and as a matter of fact, this was a couple of months ago, they looked at sauna versus weight training and the weight training protocol produced heat shock protein elevation similar to what people were getting from a sauna session. I don't remember the time or the temperature being used, but weights would be one just exercising in the heat in general. Paradoxically,

cold plunging can increase heat shock proteins because. it's a thermal regulatory mechanism. So there are other ways that you can stress the body, kind of like fasting in autophagy, to get a similar pathway activated. So it doesn't just have to be sauna. That's interesting. I've been loving resonance breathing lamps.

There's this lamp called OM, OMDA Health, and it's got FDA-registered heart rate sensor on the top of it. So you can imagine like a big glass lamp. And on the top, there's a stone, and that's got a hundred hertz sensor. You just hold the stone. and the lamp is connected to your Wi-Fi, has the algorithm, and it detect your HRV.

And you breathe, the stone vibrates. So you're just breathing up and down with the stone. It maximizes your resonance. It gets you into resonance. It's maximizing that arrhythmia between it. It makes all sounds. It just randomly. It makes like an ocean sound.

Literally like two weeks ago. I got targeted on Instagram. So rules. So funny story. So Jay Wiles, the HRV expert who developed that lamp, I used to have this thing where I didn't want to do a podcast without a sidekick without a podcast host. Jay was my podcast sidekick for like four years. No way. Yeah. He was like the witty banter guy and he's super smart. Like whenever anybody would ask

question about HRV like Jay would jump in and then he developed this lamp and it actually is cool. It's fucking. It's absolutely awesome. The best thing about it is you can grab it and use it while you're watching TV. So let's say that you're lying in bed or you're on the couch or whatever. If you've got a lamp nearby, you can just be watching the movie and you can crank out 45 minute breathwork sessions without even thinking about it. Because you don't need the light cue, just the vibratority. It doesn't interrupt anything. If you've got it next to your bed and you can't sleep on a nighttime, you can roll over

and grab it. That's what it doesn't interrupt whoever you're in bed with. So what is that? Is it the vibration that changes it or is it the blood? The idea behind resonance breathing, and it's actually kind of fascinating that nearly every human being on the planet with a breath rate of around five and a half seconds in, five and a half seconds out achieves peak HRV. So that's about where you see really good vagal tone is at that breath rate.

And this lamp is essentially in a training tool to either via visual cues or via vibratory cues if you're using the stone to cause you to breathe at that rate. There's a book called coherence. And in the latter pages of that book, it was one of the first books ever read on Resonance Breathing. There's like a link or a QR code to a downloadable. mp3 file called the clock and bell. And that was when I first discovered the power of resonance breathing because it's literally

like, like, tick, tock, tick, dot, tick, ding, tick, tick, tuck. And you play it while you're working, or whether you're checking emails, what you're doing whatever would normally be stressful. It keeps you from email apnea because you know that you're, you're doing resonance breathing, but it trains you how to like subconsciously resonance breathe, obviously a way, way more stripped down solution than what Jay developed. But it's home lamp is super cool. It's because it's like it's art.

It's trait rather than state. And I think that's why everybody's trying to get themselves over to. It's like, I want to do this practice, but I don't need to just end at the end of my session. One of the interesting things I talked to Jay about was if you get below 10 minutes, it's just state. If you get between 10 and 20, you start to move it across into trait changes too. I think you only need to do maybe, you know, three or four sessions a week. So an hour a week, something like that. And it's so easy.

So that's on my list. It doesn't do fetal heartbeat and womb-wishing sounds, though. Which is a shame. Which is a shame. They've got to build that. Any other cool shit, like interventions or supplements or whatever you've been playing? The other big one that I've seen, and I know Ben's experienced it too, is the muse stem cells. It's, they, so a scientist, Mari Dazawa out of Japan, discovered a subset phenotype of stem cell called muse.

And it's fascinating because everything they've been doing outside of the United States with tinkering with stem cells and trying to put them under stress and trying to get them to adapt and change has been in a, effort to create a cell that would have a certain phenotype that would be optimal for healing, recovery, and treating an array of different chronic diseases, but that would not become tumorgenic, right? So one of the challenges of a cell that can differentiate, meaning it can become anything, is that cell could, in theory, hypothetically become a cancer cell, or what if it came into contact with a cancer cell and took on a cancer phenotype? And then exasperated that. And now we put trillions of these cells in your body. And so fascinating.

2014, this is another woman, one of the leading scientist in stem cell research, 2014, she discovered this cell. It is a muse stands for multi-lineage stress enduring, which basically means traditional stem cells, you have to cryo-free, negative 80 degrees or more. And the second you thaw them out, they begin to die. And so you've got to get them into the body quickly. these muse cells can stay alive for days at room temperature. Less than 2% of stem cells are muse, but they're the super soldiers.

So in all this research is now coming together. Like this scientist, Dominic Deutsche out of Germany was a professor at Stanford, and he couldn't understand why diabetic patients didn't seem to be responding in certain ways like other patients. Now that he realized in his study, even though they had stem cells, they were missing this other tagged cell that was some sort of subset. And what it was a muse. And so here's why that's important. A muse cell in layman's terms can become anything.

So like when you're a kindergartner, you could grow up and be a scientist, a doctor, an attorney. Ben Greenfield, all us. Ben Greenfield, whatever it is, because you haven't set your identity yet. So in America, most people who say stem cells don't work, they're getting bone marrow aspirate or they're taking cells from fat tissue. And the problem with that is that cells already developed a phenotype. And the fraction is very large. Yes.

So a lot of it gets stuck in the lungs. And if they're diabetic or elderly, they don't have muse. There are no muse. It's literally just traditional MSCs. And so what is so special about these cells is they will take on any phenotype. They can pierce the blood-brain barrier. Other traditional cells get caught in the lungs. Traditional MSCs mostly get caught up in the lungs.

They don't pierce the blood-brain barrier. Traditional MSCs have a 3% ingraftment rate. Muse cells have a 30% ingraftment rate. traditional stem cells take multiple days to engraft. Mews cells are engrafted within 48 hours. And high histocompatibility too. There's almost no immune system response. So they're immunomodulatory. Is this the shit that Matt Cook had me breathe? Did he have me atomized? Yes. You can nebulize now. Yeah, nebulize. He probably had you do that with muse derived exosomes. Yes, yes, yes. And so we, you can literally place it on the fulcrum plate internasally and it will pierce the blood

barrier and they have this because they did it on stroke victims in Japan and their brain is lit up like a Christmas tree with these tagged cells. And what's crazy is through phagocytosis, they'll consume the damaged cell and take on the personality of that cell. So if you have a damaged neuron, they become a baby neuron that's young and healthy and vibrant. This is proven quantifiably in babies born with encephalitis. They did a study in Japan. If they don't treat those children, almost all of them will be brain damaged in the subset population that was treated in a randomized control trial,

which people love. Those children, 90% of them had totally normal brain function out to two years from one intravenous treatment. From one intravenous treatment. And we actually had a patient who was on a heart transplant list. We were talking about this with Ben yesterday. Crazy. Patient on a heart transplant list.

We treat them intravenous because they couldn't get the heart. By the time they got the heart and they re-ran this patient's information or all their data, the doctor took them off the transplant list. And there is crazy data on heart. You guys are using Dizawa muse, right? Correct.

Because the actual fraction percentage of muse cells widely varies. And that's who Matt's used it. Mari DZawa is the woman in Japan who discovered these cells. And so this is the most game changer thing that I have seen. And I've like, I don't own into the company. is not mine. I wish I did, but it's like the most game changer thing. And we've been using it because, again, Texas has the right to try. And so this is what Brett has seen the most impact with, with his Parkinson's. And I'm not saying it's going to, if with Parkinson's, it's like,

can we slow? Can we slow things? Can we give your body the best chance? And there are so many different benefits to this, whether it's tendons or joints or orthopedic related injuries. The data's really compelling when you go back and look at all of the data that this woman has accrued over the last decade. And now it's a culmination of even the scientists in Germany, Dominic Deutcher, who is trying to understand what are these little subset phenotypes? And now it's all come together where he's like, holy shit. I've wasted 20 years of research trying to figure this out. They're actually harvested from a rare breed of cattle in the Middle East. So it's super cool. You're difficult to get. You're kidding. He's kidding. He is kidding. He is a callback.

This is healthy birth, healthy brother, pre-plan C-section. They take the discreet guarded afterbirth and from that they can extrapolate out these these supercells these super soldier cells basically that's so fucking cool afterbirth super soldiers yeah that's what i need so those are things that i think will be game changer as they become more readily accepted florida's passed a law that allows accessibility um tennessee just passed a law that i lobbied for and then also i lobbied in arizona we got it through the house and the senate but the governor of arizona shot it down um i think texas is going to pass more accessible laws around this and then Utah.

So you can get it in certain states, and then certain states are regulated, and then obviously it's not an FDA-approved modality for anything. So any use of these cells would be off-l-l-l-l-l-a-nob. You know what you were talking about putting stuff here? I was thinking about clear spray, X-L-E-A-R. That shit, just available over-the-counter for Marc-ons. Fucking crazy. Yeah, yeah.

I can't believe that that thing is just like, oh, yeah, just buy it. And for the people that don't know, I'm talking, can you explain what it is? It's a nasal spray. You know about the xylitol in features? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I've only ever really used it after swimming in fresh water. Like I discovered it way back in the triathlon days where you'd get out of a river or lake

or any fresh body and just typically like about 3 or 4 a.m. That night after you lay down the stuff connects in the nasal passages and you get the histaminergic response. You start sneezing and you start sniffling and you spray this stuff. And you get vasodilation. seems to just knock down the histamine reaction, but it's just an OTC. Yeah, yeah, over-the-counter clear spray. But if you do a course, typically for about two or three months, that's enough to knock

out mark-ons that is a... Which normally, you'd get a pretty expensive and difficult to get vasoactive intestinal polypeptide, like nasal spray for it, VIP peptide. The VIP peptide, yeah. But you can do that and then maybe some silver spray, and you can get rid of something that's literally living in your fucking nasal cavity. Like you got shit that's living inside of your nose, these like, like, micro-organisms. Yes.

And yeah, there's clear spray, which is just, yeah, X-L-E-A-R. Somebody knows how to pronounce it. Yeah, whatever. I mean, it's clear-slear spray. Clear spray. Somewhere along the way, low energy just gets accepted as a part of getting older. Turns out there's a reason for that. As we age our mitochondria, the parts of our cells that power us, become weaker and make less energy,

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US plus they ship internationally and right now you can get that $99 price with an additional 20% off by going to the link in the description below. Are heading to timeline.com slash modern wisdom using the code modern wisdom at checkout. That's timeline.com slash modern wisdom and modern wisdom at checkout. So why are GLPs a concern for sarcopenia and are you more worried about sarcopenia than osteoporosis? I'm worried about both and that is a great question. We've never had the ability to lose this much weight, this fast, outside of bariatric surgery. We are at the intersection of something that we've never seen before, which is very unusual in medicine, to be at a place that we've never been. Yeah. We now have the capacity to.

to reduce weight magnitudes than of weight that we've never had before, which means if in fact these drugs are utilized, which I think the number is they're expecting somewhere along between 40 to 60 million people on these medications. It's like 20% of Americans. Plus all the people who are just like using gray market stuff and not even telling anybody like unreported. Hopefully things are going to evolve there. But what is going to happen is if obesity has been our focus, which it has been for

the last 50 years, we haven't gotten very far. All of a sudden, JLP ones are now available. Obesity will become less of a problem, but the fact that people are sedentary, sarcopenia, the loss of muscle mass and strength is going to become a primary problem, which then we know how bone is formed. And by the way, osteoporosis is a pediatric disease with geriatric outcomes. Osceoporosis is a pediatric disease with geriatric outcomes. You explain for the idiot. Yeah, yeah. Wait.

Idiots in the room. Meaning what you do when you are younger to protect bone and muscle plays a role in the outcome. So she was saying it's like predictive of your osteoporotic status late in life, what you are at early in life. Athletes that lose their menstrual cycle are very underweight. People that have struggled with anorexia end up having very low bone mineral density and then are at risk for osteoporosis. It's kind of strange to hear, you know, three people in a room who are quite forward-thinking, quite experimental, open to new evidence, being skeptical about GLPs. I understand obesity was a problem for a long time. We've got this intervention which appears to fix the obesity thing. And now there's all of these potential side effects that we don't. In fact, they're not even side effects. They're more like second-order consequences. That's probably a better way to look at them, right, rather than side effects. What else, how do you guys feel about the potential for millions, tens of millions of people to be taking GLP, over the next decade. I think one of the big challenges, and this is what you just touched on, is in traditional

medicine, it's an insurance model. And this is my forte. And the challenge with that traditional model is you are based off an indication, and that indication is based off a specific dosage. And so these trials were based off chronically sick, morbidly obese people, right? This was originally going to be a diabetes medication. And so all of the initial data. Which is where the lion's share of human clinical data.

from is disease populations. And so then the problem is you take that and you roll it out to the general population and every 33 BMI. Yeah. And now every housewife in Malibu was using it to lose 10 pounds for like vacation. Guess what else it does? And this is not really talked about. It has different sexual side effects if you are a man or a woman. Is that like the Anahedonia thing where it reduces pleasure? But it's more pronounced in one sex? Yes. Which one? So in women. Oh really? And the data is emerging because we haven't been using it. Are you ready? God damn it. So for men, you're so lean, you're so lean, but no one more, I can't have sex with you. So for men, it can increase testosterone, it can decrease body fat, decrease estrogen, and it can increase sex drive. But what we're

starting to see for women is that it can, again, decrease body fat, but it also seems to decrease sex drive. So just give them some PT-141 nasal spray and we're back off. Or we study women more. Yeah. Or we study women more. And perhaps we get to your point specialized dosing. Because the problem is in that model. I literally right before we walked in here got a text from somebody who said my wife's

trezepotide is no longer covered by insurance and they're trying to move her to a dosage that would be covered. Okay. You're going to move her up to a higher dosage to get insurance. Oh, it's a higher dose that's covered. Even though she was getting the efficacy out of the lower dose. Right. And that's because insurance companies, I broke this down on your podcast too before,

it's a big challenge because 30% of the revenue of an insurance company comes from monetizing drugs. So they are changing dosages based off rebates and what rebate pays them the most. And so you may be on an efficacious dosage that's working great for you, but they may go, yeah, we're not covering that one anymore. You've got to bump up. Yeah, which is super interesting because of efficacious dose. I mean, we were just talking about 0.25, which is a microdose that suppresses

food noise that for a lot of people is enough nowhere near enough so you're covered by insurance but then these larger doses is where you see the issue back to sarcopenia where you're told you're supposed to go to the gym and lift weights and the only way for you to do that without feeling flat is to eat a good meal but you sit in front of your favorite smoothie or pre-workout or whatever and you get nauseous trying it so then you're flat in the gym and so this is like the whole gray man hypothesis where the road that we're going down is getting really smart getting big, like, AI, potentially like, you know, hardware-infused brains while our body wastes away into little stick figures and the gray men are us from the future on GOP-1s and AI.

Thank goodness we have testosterone. Is the, is the dosage, is it a pre-click pen? Is that why people can't, because when I think, oh, this is the dosage, I just think about a vial and an insulin syringe and you go, well, I'll just draw more or less. So the companies are launching those other dosages to give more mobility to patients. and options, so the commercially available companies, the manufacturers are. Compounders have been doing that for the last five years. But that still goes back to it's going to be based off what was in the clinical trials

and what dosage were showed to be efficacious in those trials, which is again known obese patient population. And if you want insurance to cover it, insurance is going to do it following the literature. Oh, that's so interesting. And so now we're in a space where we don't really understand a no microdosing. We do know that GLP1s affect muscle positively, despite what you're seeing in the literature, which is it reduces muscle mass. The majority of the fat, the majority of the mass loss is fat. But why I think, I actually think that GLP1s are really good is it has the potential to improve muscle quality. Imagine. By reducing intramuscular triglycerides. Imagine you have a waggon steak. You go on a GLP1, you, you know, you know, you, you know,

know, inject it, your wagu steak becomes like a filet. So the texture and the composition can improve with GLP1. So we need it. I believe that we need it because we have not been effective before. And again, I don't think body fat is the major problem. I think it's intramuscular fat. That is true that a lot of the studies on, I think it was primarily red of trutide that showed muscle loss were done via dexat evaluations, which couldn't differentiate between lean mass loss. from muscle or lean mass loss coming from something like intra-hypatic tissue, intramuscular triglycerizer, other things that would actually be a positive benefit when it comes to loss. But if you're not eating enough food, the muscle loss thing is still a pretty big risk. To try and recap while we're out here,

because that's fucking mind-blowing, the studies that have been done are mostly on morbidly obese people because they're morbidly obese, they're given quite high dosages. When it comes to the prescriber-approved dosages that people can take because they need to follow the science. That means that even people who are looking to lose a little bit of weight and might be able to get efficacious effects from microdosing, they need to be given the big boy dosages because they're the only ones that currently have been studied in the literature. Is that right? It's attempt to try and land the ship and thread the needle and get insurance coverage and then the initial insulin. The initial prescriptions for the first few years were preloaded syringes. Yes. Right. And so you couldn't

have the autonomy to shift. And so when we were seeing muscle wasting, it's like, yeah, because a lot of these people are taking way higher dosages than they should have been taking, and their doctors just trying to give them a solution. And then nose-driving their weight. When they don't need to, they could get away with 0.25 or 0.5. And what Gabriel was saying is like, like, the muscle loss is not necessarily a direct mechanistic cause of the GLP itself. And some of the actual loss from that might be favorable. It's the loss that occurs from simply not being able to get into the gym and or e-adacate protein. Because you've got such low energy because you're not eating. And low food volume.

What's the mechanism for the sex drive in women? Dopamine. Dopamine brain reward pathways. Because the pathways are very similar. And they're looking at JLP1 for alcohol addiction and drug addiction. It's not purely... Anything that's hedonic. Anything that's hedonic.

It's not solely just related to body fat and appetite. It has brain effects. It's not only found in the gut and slowing like making you feel full and slowing gastric emptying. It's also you have GLP1 in the brain and so it impacts your dopamine response. Desire generally. I brought this up. Zombie mode. I brought this up with Rogan. It was like what happens when our entire economy is driven on consumerism and you pharmacologically suppress desire, right? Like most people are buying shit, not things that they need, just things that they want. And it's sort of repeat habituation. I'm just going to satisfy, satiate myself. And yeah, maybe it's sex.

Maybe it's video games. Maybe it's porn. Maybe it's social media. Maybe it's weed. You're going down the GLP to GDP. Wait, but here's what we're doing to do. Very nice. Well, I totally miss that. I'm like the mom in the room. But what's happening is that, so I see patients in my clinic, right? Strong medical. People are getting a little depressed. They don't get the same enjoyment from sex, from eating or from spending. People on GLPs get depressed. And now I want to be really clear. I'm not anti-GLP ones. I mean, we prescribe them. But it's the idea that kind of what Brigham is saying is that we understand the utilization in trials with sick people with type 2 diabetes. We don't really know all of the other secondary outcomes that this can cause. And again, part of them are positive, but decreased sex drive, fun, mood, all of those things.

Those are a problem. I remember looking at this. It's a great aid for stoicism. I looked at some research around bariatric surgery outcomes, and there's an increase in suicide risk after bariatric surgery. But it's not just because it's highly traumatic and sometimes it's infections and sometimes, like, idiot surgeons, like close you up with galls still inside of you and things can go wrong. It's that typically people who are sufficiently overweight that they use bariatric surgery are eating to deal with something that's happening in their life. They've now had that pathway. They've had that pathway of reward and sedation taken away from them, but the problem still exists.

So now what you're talking about here is, hey, you're using GLPs to help yourself lose weight. The weight loss has been curtailed, but the reason that you overate is still exists. And the same thing goes to go to Dr. Lyons's practice. I guarantee you you're doing a full workup, you're assessing the blood work, and you're looking at the patient holistically. If you go into a primary care practice in an insurance model, they have six minutes with a patient on average. They want to put a win on the board for that patient. That patient's asking for a GLP1. That patient probably is pre-diabetic or diabetic.

That patient probably does have weight to lose. But what is the root cause of this illness? And these are the symptoms, not the root cause. And then they prescribe the GLP1 without ever saying, do they have a hormonal inadequacy? Do they have a family history of mental health issues, depression, anxiety? You're doing all that. Yes. You have the ability in a cash model.

And you bring up another really good point that, say someone needs to lose weight. Again, we have to recognize we have been very unsuccessful. Now we have a tool that makes us successful. However, let me pose it to you this way. If you, Brigham, had low thyroid and you were hypothyroid, well, you might try to get to the request, but let's just say you have low thyroid. And I give you thyroid replacement to normalize your levels. You wouldn't think twice, right? I'm going somewhere with this. If you had trouble seeing, let's say your eyes got older. If I gave you glasses, that wouldn't be an issue. Well, it would affect my sex appeal a little bit. I would push back. I would ask for contacts.

Fine, fine, right. But wait, I'm going somewhere with this. But if someone comes into your point with, say, low testosterone as a woman or a man, they are now juicing. They are now on steroids. So this is a problem. Not that your testosterone is low. I'm going to give you. testosterone to bring you up to a normal level. We're not talking about optimization. We're not talking about enhancement. We are talking about someone is using a GLP1, now has low testosterone, man or woman, and the thing, the balance, let's say they have low sex hormones, because of the industry stigma in general. Everyone at this table is very interested in health. But for the average person, if you go, hey, I'm on testosterone. They're like, oh, my,

my gosh, you're juicing, you're on steroids. Right. It's not because people don't understand. Because there is a stigma in primary care too with testosterone. So real world example and he covered this on Joe is jelly roll. We've helped him lose 250 pounds. Everyone immediately assumes we put him on a GLP1. No, we ran his blood work.

He had low testosterone. He was chronically inflamed. He had all sorts of other biometric issues unrelated to discipline. And all we did was fix those root causes. He never took a GLP1, and to this day, everyone's like, and I sell GLP ones, I would tell you if he took it. It would be great. The guy did it with blood, sweat, and tears, diet, lifestyle, nutrition. Yeah.

And optimized hormones, yes. But in general medicine, they view it as testosterone is the boogie. Yeah, it's a misunderstanding between hypogonadism and super physiological dosing of testosterone and not understanding the sweet spot in between. And, you know, I still, you know, like I was watching Pete Hasgas. recent video about putting warfighters on testosterone. He wasn't putting warfers on testosterone, screening. Or, yeah, screening for that. I still like to see that conversation couched in the discussion of like lifts weights with your legs where there's a high concentration of androgen

receptors and cover the bases like creatine and zinc and boron and omegas and magnesium and some of the upstream precursors, you know, look into sleep, look into recovery and then make the decision. So I know you guys aren't saying just like throw testosterone really nilly. You say, you you did blood work with jelly roll. I think the problem is, like, it is massive the number of people who are hypogonatal, the number of men, in particular, hypokinatal. I don't think that testosterone replacement therapy is the first solution, but sometimes it is the most effective solution, especially in a scenario where you're unable,

like in a warfighter to live the optimal lifestyle. This is very important. Very important conversation. What you are saying is absolutely correct. We are seeing a decrease in testosterone. year after year. Obesity goes up, behaviors go down, people are eating, not sleeping, all sorts of things. There is a medical risk when someone has low testosterone for heart disease, for osteoporosis, cognition, depression. So if I had one dream in this room of strong men and powerful men, we would clear up the idea of a testosterone revolution. and we would clear up this idea that testosterone is steroids

and somehow I can give medication to make someone have less fat. But if I give medication to someone to have them build muscle, it's a problem. If you and your partner sleep best at different temperatures, it is time that you joined us in the modern world and gotten eight sleep. I've always wanted to try eight sleep. Which side of the bed do you prefer? I usually take left, but I am flexible.

You're not sleeping in my bed, mate. Oh, when you said partner, I just assumed. I meant a romantic partner, you know? Of course. Eight Sleeps Pod 5 is a smart mattress cover that actively cools or heats each side of the bed by up to 20 degrees. So if you run hot and your partner runs cold, you're both happy. So hypothetically, if your bro was sleeping over, what side of the bed would you prefer? I'm not 12.

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Why do you think testosterone's become so demonized? You know, makes your blood super thick and gives you a heart attack. So in the 30s, people use testosterone. It was discovered in the 30s as a medical intervention, and there was one study that came out by Huggins, and it showed that testosterone caused prostate cancer. So in the 30s, people,

We're using it as a medical intervention. There wasn't a stigma associated with it. At the same time, people were interested. We're seeing increase in sport performance, right? Because we do know that testosterone increases muscle mass, combined testosterone training. You get better outcomes. And motivation for forward motion. All of these things.

For decades, people would castrate men because they were worried that it was going to make or start prostate cancer and treat prostate cancer. The study was wrong. Yeah. There were only three patients in the studies. I can't believe you know this. So there were three patients in this study. So they castrated men. They didn't put anyone on.

You mean we didn't give men testosterone? No, they suppressed androgens. Well, they actually tied rubber bands around their balls. Yeah. There were three patients. They don't really do that. Because this Huggins study said if you've got too much testosterone, you might get prostate cancer, therefore we'll cut your balls.

Or if you have prostate cancer. Yeah. We should chemically. It was kind of hard to survive. It was wrong. Yeah. It was wrong. But it was wrong.

dull dogma that then got adopted by the medical establishment. It was wrong. Can you imagine like, whoops? And this was debunked by Dr. Morgan Tyler, a prominent urologist in the 90s. How did it take 60 years? I know. This is the problem. It took 60 years and now we're seeing the opposite. Testosterone doesn't cause these things. Testosterone, there is a risk for having low testosterone. Testosterone doesn't cause prostate cancer. Testosterone doesn't make cardiovascular. Testosterone doesn't make cardiovascular disease worse, there is all of these myths, which is really important, but we got it wrong. Some of them are true, though, hair loss. If you think about what Dr. Morgan Tyler uncovered is it comes down to saturation level. So think of receptor sites. You can only water a plant so much. So if a plant gets no water,

it dies. If a plant gets too much water, it dies. Receptor sites are the same way. You can only water that plant so much. So as men had no testosterone chemically castrated, their risk of prostate cancer was statistically less because you have no testosterone, but you have a higher risk of every other form of cancer. You have a higher risk of metabolic disease, diabetes. Most of the risks. Losing bone mass of testosterone are not what we thought they were. And they're a little like, you know, excess aromatization and conversion to estrogen if it's improperly managed. So you can get emotional issues or gynecomastia or increased conversion to dh T, which can cause male pattern baldness. But these are not like life or death issues.

And most of those issues occur when you push past physiologic. And there's a difference between enhancement and replacement of something the body already makes. And for the military operators, so I had Tim Parlatorie, who is the attorney who submitted the memo on the podcast that we haven't released it yet. And the idea is that if you have low testosterone, you are at a disadvantage. If we send guys to war, we're not talking about enhancement. We are talking about guys that are symptomatic with hypogonadism, with low levels of testosterone. If we don't even screen, right now they're not even screening. If we don't screen, we are sending to war guys with a massive disadvantage.

Suboptimal. I want every single soldier to have 2,000 nanograms per decedalcitrant. Yes, I fucking do. Yes, I fucking do. Remember, we don't want too emotional. Who can't control their raid. I want, that's what I want. Bald, rage-infused monsters.

Just fucking sick skin off. No hair. Grimic scenes everywhere. Well, we don't know. defending, listen, I, we. Fucking each other. Tiny balls. Just fucking everywhere.

Yeah. No sperm. So, sideways. Listen, as a military family, as a Navy family. With high testosterone. Yes, my husband, yes, has high testosterone. we would never want those war fighters going in. And you know, I want to say something else is that people are saying, well, what about the women? Well, considering only about 10 people have read the memo, women will also be screened. They're also complicated. Like it is more complicated. But if we can get screening done initially to protect our soldiers, then we have a way to do something about it. We can fix and identify and acknowledge that there's a problem. But the fact that it is so controversial, the fact that it has gotten people so upset is outrageous. You do see a political camp.

This is an agenda. I'm sorry to get conspiratorial, but I've watched it, and I've been behind the scenes, and I've been all the way to D.C. And I've set at the FDA. I've testified at the FDA. I have watched this play out. The same thing that happened with men and testosterone, happened with women and women's hormones with the women's health initiative.

And I was a drug rep when they released that study. And the first thing the company did was hand me osteoporosis drugs. And all of a sudden, all of us were carrying osteoporosis drugs. drugs. And our job was to go into doctors and scare the hell out of them about you should never put a woman on estrogen again. You need to put them on an osteoporosis drug to preserve their bone mineral density. But guess what? That osteoporosis drug exasperated hot flashes, which is another issue. Now they need a hot flash drug. So you're selling them four drugs to fix what one natural hormone would have fixed that was there since the dawn of time. But the whole study

was flawed to begin with. And that all got debunked. But it took 20. 20-something years to bring estrogen back to women. I don't know how much the cultural conversation and the push back around testosterone is to do with people understanding a study of three people from 1930. I think it's much more cultural than that. I think it's much more of a what does testosterone represent generally. I think that and also the same type of treatment that GLP1 is given in terms of perception of taking a shortcut. But testosterone is often perceived the same way. You're not going to go lift weights

and you're not going to pay attention to lifestyle factors and you're just going to throw a band-aid on it. But no one cares if someone is taking a LP1. Exactly. No one's accusing somebody that lost a ton of weight on GLPs of being non-nattie. Right. Right.

But if you ever do a six-week course of fucking ananthate, that means for the rest of your time. Your natty status is gone. So what is it? Why that? What's the difference? And I think this is a good split test, right? You have two drugs, delivery mechanisms,

not too dissimilar. one's I am, one's, you know, sub-Q. Both of them... Both can be sub-Q, actually. Testosterone. So you can use them in similar ways. They achieve similar things, like a leaner, more built physique. Why is it that testosterone's got this?

Is it the sort of masculinized side of this? Is it aggression? Is it... What do you think? I think is the performance-enhancing benefits in sports, and that's created a dogma around. Everybody, evidently. But like, take sports out?

I think it goes beyond sports, though. I mean, there is simply a perception. I think that if someone is on testosterone, they are taking a little bit of a shortcut when it comes to muscle mass recovery. If they're low, are they taking a shortcut? If they're hypogonatal, they're not taking a shortcut. They're addressing a deficiency, but there's still the perception that you're not doing the work. And I think that feeds into it. I think some of it is the unfairness potentially of the sports performance angle as well.

What happened to the end of hands games? Do you not think that the indication is, you know, do you not think that the indication is wrong today, like the clinically low, too fasted. I have to be very careful about this. You are way too well read. So basically what he's saying is our indication of 300 nanograms per deciliter. It's in different countries, depending on where you live in Italy, it might be 350. That will determine what your definition of hypogonitis. So the lower range of normal from a normal adult male in the US at the moment is 300 nanograms per decil. And that's too low.

In my opinion. What's the upper mound? You think the lower range should be raised? I think that, again, I want to couch this very carefully as a practicing physician who does research. This is not medical advice. No, no, no, no. But listen, but so I'm going to give me the answer. Pass it to me a note under the table and I can say it.

I'm not a doctor. So what I'm saying is that it's not just the number. So there is other things that go into effect. For example, and I figured this out. I had a guy who was from Homeland Security, and his testosterone was 600. And he had all the signs and symptoms of low T. And I'm like, brother, I'm not putting you on tests. Just get more sleep.

You're going to be great. And it turns out he had a CAG repeat, a CAG repeat. So the testosterone that he had wasn't effective because he had issues with the receptors. We all have different receptors. A testosterone of 900 for you might equal a testosterone of 300 for break. gummed. Right. And the CAD repeat is not a SHBG free available testosterone. It's an actual receptor issue. That's right. It's not going to convert it into free. It's still not interacting with the receptor. And we don't test those routinely. It's primarily done in research where we're still gathering the data is what the impact is. But the idea that number one, that testosterone is going to cause harm in physiologic ranges. So if someone is 300 or 500 but feel like crap and it looks like they need. need testosterone, but they don't measure low. In the medical world, we are, according to guidelines,

not supposed to essentially treat that. That's where I was going. A lot of that is insurance based too. And we go back to this whole conundrum of like, you can practice a sick care model. And it's a challenge because every personalized medicine is exactly that. It should be personalized. Each individual is different. And their physiological response is different. Insurance will cover 299 but not 301. Well, does TRT create the same probably? that Ozempic does, like people are pharmacologically solving a problem that lifestyle should have partially fixed. Is it an artificial solution to an artificial problem? I think some people are. Absolutely. I mean, that goes back to what I was saying earlier about lifting weights and

micronutrient replenishment and relationships and sunlight and de-stressing recovery and sleep. If you have all of those parameters in place, which a lot of people nowadays do, I think there can still be anything from environmental factors that influence testosterone availability. This is the endocrine disruptor discussion, you know, the plastic discussion, personal care products and foods wrapped in plastic, which I think can affect that. There is the industrial pollution, air pollution, even like light pollution, having an effect on the stress and sleep component. Like, I think we have a bigger uphill battle, including the fact that not a lot of guys are

like chopping wood and building fences and hauling rocks outdoors. And so I think it's a cluster of factors that influence a modern lifestyle putting you at a higher risk for hypogonad. We definitely have higher levels of low T than we ever have as a society. But then you also look like my good friend Callie Means breaks down the whole food system and ultra-processed foods. And when did we see that spike? The big changes started happening in the 80s. And we can go back to like the infancy of how that occurred. as soon as the government began to regulate big tobacco, big tobacco, JP Philip Morris or whatever,

went out and started acquiring most of the major food production companies. And most of those major food production companies pivoted from healthy foods, more hearty meals, to ultra-process foods. Ultra-process foods have a 30-plus percent profit margin. A banana has like an 8 to 10 percent profit margin. So it's our food systems, it's our glyphosate rules and regulations around our crops. All of those things are controlled and more. much bigger dynamics.

All I hear right now is that cigarette companies have made us less yoked. That's the story. But here's the problem. Let's say you take the war fighter. Everything that we named here is a luxury. The idea that you can sun your perineum and that you can go to bed early and you can sleep in and you can reduce light pollution, these are all luxuries that a warfighter, a new mom are not going to have.

And so if we restrict. on their perineum. So if we, if we restrict the ability to treat based on allowing them to solve for lifestyle factors first, there is enough evidence to support that low testosterone contributes to disease risk that I wouldn't wait. Why would I wait? You don't have the degrees of freedom within your lifestyle for certain people that have got constraints on their sleep, constraints on their ability to eat, et cetera. Yeah, I guess, Ben, you've experimented a lot, obviously, every performance intervention under the sun. Where does testosterone rank for you, like, compared with sleep or resistance training or light or diet or stress, stuff like that? How important is...

Yeah, in my defense, I actually have not sun my prunium. So... Recently? Yeah. Since I've been in Austin, I haven't had the opportunity. The... I think it depends primarily on age, right? So I've been on testosterone for four years. I began when I was 40. The main thing I noticed was being able to recover a lot faster, being able to hit the gym for, you know, what I do in the morning that keeps me saying, keeps me active and keeps me productive and keeps my head clear. I can continue to do that day after day, whereas I was noting a, like a significant increase in the amount of time that I needed for recovery between workouts just based on HRV, based on soreness.

So I would rank it higher and higher in order of priority. The older a man gets. I know we're talking about men, but obviously women are part of this discussion as well. Which they haven't really been studied nearly. And I would say somewhere in the range of 35 to 40 years old. And most men, Gabriel probably has the actual demographic data somewhere tucked away, that giant book.

It becomes pretty important. So I would say for me, as I age, increasingly important. Can I just... One other thing that we should mention, of course, is the fertility discussion, right? The younger you are, and this is the problem with the Lopes-Maxing community of dudes totally screwing themselves over from like a legacy and childhood standpoint when they're 16 years old. We do need to bear in mind that a 30-year-old who may be hypogonaddle and may still face some of this uphill battle in terms of a post-industrial lifestyle or a modern lifestyle, keeping them that way and not being able to do things besides testosterone replacement. therapy needs to know there's an impact on fertility and their practitioner needs to be aware of methods to maintain sperm quality. I froze my sperm last year just in case I ever wanted to get

on TRT at some point. I'm not on it and I was like, I just feel like it's probably a good insurance policy and it is so cheap. You want to talk about some fucking patriarchy? One of the places that it definitely exists is how cheap it is for guys to freeze their sperm compared with women to freeze their risk. Well, it's probably less expensive because you're using Mike's butcher shop down the street for those cure that But it's a great solution. And also we, just because someone goes on testosterone, there are, like you had mentioned,

there are interventions like HCG, you have to work with a provider that knows. It doesn't mean you're going to be infertile. 10% of men just at baseline have low fertility. 2% of men of like no sperm. So if a guy is hypogonadal and he's younger, he should still be treated. You should bank his sperm.

You should give him the appropriate, discussion, give him some HCG, but you wouldn't want to withhold a medical treatment. I just think it's a mistake. And if we don't destigmatize the idea that somehow testosterone is going to ruin the world and make them bald. It's wrapped up in a moral panic. I'm kind of fascinated by I've never thought about it before, but the equivalency of GLPs on one side and testosterone and the other. Like morally, there shouldn't really be much difference between the two. One is helping you eat less and one is helping you build more muscle and your hormonal profile to improve. I get the sense that a good bit of it is that one side is quite male coded and one is to do with

aggression and sort of dominance and pursuit and forward motion. And another is a somewhat more female coded, which is that it's helping you to lose weight, maybe it'll be a little bit more slender. And this looks like health. And the other one looks more like luxury perhaps or unnecessary enhancement. Yeah, everybody knows a fat person that loses weight. It's Like you didn't need that. So you can see it visually. You can't see someone's low testosterone in the same way. So I wonder, that's a really fucking interesting. But what happens when a woman goes on a GLP1 and her testosterone is low? She tells her sister, I have low testosterone. I'm going to start testosterone. She's like, oh my God, you're going to start steroids. And then she's shame. But so we know that a person will go on, typically a GLP1 for two years and come off. Now, essentially there's a weight cycling. So it becomes. a skinny fat situation and they've lost now lean tissue and they put on fat. And let's say in a profile of a decreasing milieu, her estrogen goes down, her testosterone goes down, all her hormones go down. But then because of this stigma, she's ridiculed or ashamed because now she's on steroids.

And so in a moment where we have the ability to shift her life and her trajectory, she doesn't take it because of all the noise that she's now juicing. And that's a problem. I didn't even realize the stigma was that significant for women. It is. And testosterone for a man is the number one biomarker. There is no other biomarker that reflects the risk of type 2 diabetes, that reflects the risk of potential depression. And when you say biomarkers out like the whole hormone channel, total tea, free tea, everything?

Yeah. Well, I mean, so I would say total testosterone because, again, it's really free tea, which is a really good point. but if I had to pick one biomarker, it would be testosterone. So let's say if we take that back to soldiers, and we don't routinely screen them, that one biomarker will give us more information into their future than any other biomarker. I want to know what's happening with peptide access right now, because you were part of this big hearing that recently happened. If you're going to spend an hour in the gym,

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no more looking like Adam Sandler's your stylist. Basically, everything they make is unbelievably well designed. You already know about them. They're high quality. You get 30 days of free returns globally with global shipping and a 10% discount sitewide. So get that 10% discount by going to the link in the description below or heading to jim.sh slash modern wisdom and using the code modern wisdom 10 at checkout. That's jim.sh slash modern wisdom and modern wisdom 10 a checkout. What happened inside of the FDA pet ID ring? What's going on? No, thank you. That's a good question. So I've been trying to ring the bell on this since it started. During the Biden administration, the FDA, it kind of in a vacuum blindsided the public by putting peptides on the naughty list and said these 17 peptides are now considered dangerous to compound, meaning overnight the regulatory landscape shifted. And so compounding pharmacies like mine legally could not make a safe product that had been in the market, oftentimes for more than five or six years. and with no heads up.

Like, we weren't seeing adverse safety data, nothing. One of the ways that I've tried to prove this is I submitted multiple FOIA requests to the FDA over the last three years, and they had not responded to a single FOIA request. So when Secretary Kennedy was put into this position and was given the opportunity to try and drive change, this was one of the first things I discussed with him was, hey, we've submitted these FOIA requests. We haven't gotten answers. industries just asking for guidance. We're not making this, but you created a gray and black market overnight.

And so just two weeks ago, they federally indicted a gray market peptide manufacturer out of Florida who was buying all of his API from China that was tainted with testosterone. And so women were injecting. Oh, they're injecting. An API is the pharmaceutical ingredients. Yeah. So it's the base product that you use to compound the medication. So that being said, after a lot of lobbying,

begging, pleading, and flights to D.C. And thank God for guys like Joe. I'll say, you know, Rogan's been a voice on this and ringing the bell that, hey, why are we banning peptides? Why are we forcing people to gray and black market? We had a hearing. So, and that's a crazy story in itself. We could write a book on it. Literally, they had the group built out. We submitted over 800 studies, 800,000 pages of documents. We did a retrospective analysis of 16 million patients that were on BPC 157. Out of that, we found three adverse events. Three adverse events.

Yeah. Somebody said that up there by the hundreds of thousands of uses of multiple peptides, including BPC, and like the number of adverse events was close to zero. Correct. And versus let's look at what, seven. This is one of the largest retrospective analysis ever done of a medication. And so I want to be clear because another famous influencer clinician just took to the internet and tried to debunk this hearing, the hearing wasn't about efficacy. This is a confusion

for people. It's all about safety because what people fell to realize, again, going back to the process and the legal structure, if you file for a new drug indication, what I am asking you for is to give me Medicare, Medicaid, Tricare dollars. I'm asking you to force employers to cover a treatment for an employee because 90% of Americans get their coverage through employers. And so that's the reason insurance plans go up every year because they're monetizing all this stuff. And so this is not that world. This is a cash pay product for a patient using their hard-earned money to decide under the supervision of a clinician to fulfill this prescription through a board certified pharmacy that is inspected by both the state and federal government. And we had a safe pathway. And that pathway

was removed in a vacuum with no evidence. And then we went and argued with evidence, submitted over 5,000 pages of studies, and the FDA in this environment gave these clinicians literally like a week to review everything. So these doctors, these poor doctors are trying to cram for the test before they come in here. And we had submitted it a month in advance. And then the FDA releases a statement to the public with a black market peptide API data set saying we are going stand against this most likely even if these clinicians vote yes and by the way here's a certificate of analysis from a compounding pharmacy it wasn't a compounding pharmacy it was a fucking black market manufacturer that had already been shut down why so it was very misleading that's a difficult question to

ask i don't again when we sat in there the clinicians began to get so frustrated that at one point one of the FDA individuals said hey look i just want to be clear we're not intentionally hiding or misrepresenting data. And the clinician was basically saying, well, yeah, it really feels like that. Like, it doesn't feel like you were giving us a shot at this. They ended up overturning six out of the seven peptides. But here is, what was disappointing, though, is the FDA all voted straight line one way. The clinicians that use these products and are actually clinicians in users in the medical space, all voted straight line, yes. And it was like clear which pathways they were on. This is a really good point because maybe you can clear this up is that physicians, practicing

physicians will say, well, why are there no randomized control trials? Yeah. Why is this data mechanistic data? Why rodent models, animal models, if you can prove it mechanistically, then we should be able to see it in some type of randomized control trial. And I think that as we know. Yeah, that's great. So actually on BPC, we submitted, I think, four or six human studies.

I can't remember. I don't want to tell. Let's say four to be safe. At least four human studies. Now, the issue with a peptide is you cannot patent something that is readily available in nature. That's patent law in the United States. So look at what's going on with the GLP-1s. A 503A patient-specific pharmacy can compound a GLP1 weight loss drug. It is infuriating the big pharmaceutical cartels because they're like, wait a second, we spent billions of dollars to

make these drugs. And so a lot of the pressure on peptides as a class has come because Big Pharma is monetizing these at a new level. And so in one breath, you've got these big pharmaceutical companies telling the FDA, these are dangerous, these are this, these are that. In the next breath, Eli Lilly goes and spends $7 billion to acquire a peptide manufacturer out of China. Merck is attempting to patent over 200 potential future cutting peptides. But a lot of the physicians who are or were prescribing peptides, they have a pathway via an IRB to be able to start to gather data, right?

To actually show what's actually working in education and patients. But again, an I and D, and this is the general gist of the FDA stance from what I can gather being at this, I testified and gave my two cents on what I think and where we are and how we got here. But the general rebuttal of the FDA as a stance is, well, we have an I&D process. So go get a new drug indication. And my rebuttal is apothecary precedes Big Pharma. The founder of Pfizer was a compounder. Compounding has been in existence for over 100 years. In 1997, Congress passed a bill to protect compounders that said we are going to allow the patients and clinicians to prescribe unique medications to a patient and provide accessibility.

And the problem is if we hand the keys to the castle over to industry, and I said this in my speech to the Senate, if Eisenhower, everyone talks about Eisenhower speech in the military industrial complex. The second half of Eisenhower speech, she talked about the scientific industrial complex. and what would happen if we hand science over to industry and if we allow industry to control our scientific processes and protocols. And that is where we are headed. Yeah. And that is terrifying because what you will have is everyone getting the same dose gLP one. But even you're going to have everyone getting the same. Because this is what we have a double blind placebo controlled trial on.

And this is where academia drives me mad. Because when Rogan posted his pictures of plasmapheresis, some dipshit doctor like talks about how it wrecks the immune system. No, this is a 24-hour decrease in your immune response, and he talked about how there's no, this is not, this is pseudoscience. Plasmaferesis does have a double-blind placebo-controlled randomized trial. And that double-blind placebo randomized trial showed that it actually took 18 months off of your biological age on people over the age of 50. But people want to split hairs and decide when they want to use double-blind placebo-controlled tri-randomized trials and when they don't. Well, here's what I've seen in medicine. But this is what is so relevant here is that there's a need for improved care. And because there's a need, that's why people are reaching for peptides. That's why people are looking for plasmapheresis. Typically, the consumer, the patient will drive forward, say, plasma phoresis for something that is different than, say, myasiniagravis or something that is an indication. But this is how we start to grow. I mean, before, no one thought,

mold was a thing. I moved to New York. I got really sick. No one was talking about mold, whatever, 15 years ago. And all my blood work was great. And I was living in, you know, stocky botrys. And now environmental testing is more of a thing. But there is the patient, and then there's the need that we have to fulfill. And hopefully the science catches up. The idea of randomized control trials, I mean, they're valuable. We still need that for peptides. maybe not within your sphere, but the general medical community, they need randomized. My argument is this is about medical accessibility and medical freedom. And if a patient under the supervision of a clinician, under the guidance of the subject matter expert,

wants to utilize a compound that is safe, who is the federal government to obstruct a safe pathway and force them to a dangerous pathway? And if people love randomized control trials, I would say, let's look at the products that. have hit the market? What happened with oxycotton? What happened with all of the anti-inflammatories? What happened with antidepressants? In the second largest retrospective study analysis of a drug that went through randomized control trials, what did we see? 25 years later, what we saw is antidepressants don't fucking work. They work for a small subset of the population. They barely differentiate from placebo. Yet they increase suicidal ideation, suicidal tendencies, violent thoughts, most of the school shooters were on antidepressants.

We have created a colossal disaster for a product that in its own scale that was developed from a Pfizer consultant does not differentiate barely by one point from placebo. But yet we've spent trillions of dollars on these medications. Public service announcement brought to you by Saffron. Who gets to decide how much risk people should be able to take with their bodies? Like, should the FDA protect people from making bad medical decisions? Or like, at what point, basically, how much evidence should be required before adults can access experimental treatment?

That's a difficult one. I think it's risk reward. I say this with everything. Again, every ant, peptides are not a silver bullet, right? They're a tool in the toolbell. But for somebody who's a real world example is Brett, Brett Farb, he's diagnosed with Parkinson's. This Parkinson's is terminal. It is progressive.

the doctors basically say we've got nothing, but there are things that can help that have a shot at helping. And a lot of those trials are in other countries and not accepted here. But there are modalities that he's getting benefits from. And those modalities are being obstructed. And so I believe in a patient's right to choose. And one of the things we're working on here in Texas, Senator or second, sorry, Congresswoman Lacey Hole is going to submit a bill in Texas that's going to be called the Right to Try Act. And the Right to Try Act is going to try and provide patients in Texas with medical freedom. And we're trying to do the same thing at the federal level. The belief is, through citizens' petitions, if you're a chronically ill patient, or you have a terminal disease,

or you have some sort of catastrophic debilitating issue, why is the government stopping you from using a stem cell product? Why is the government stopping you? You have, this is the end of your runway. Beyond a threshold of severity in terms of your health, you're allowed to throw anything, you want at the wall within a reason? I think you should. But so a lot of that would still be out of pocket, though, right? All of it's out of pocket. Yeah, none of this would be covered by insurance, which goes back to the main crux of the

issue, like, if somebody wants to spend their cash to son their, you know, like, who are you to tell? If I want to fly to Thailand for double Vs, I can do it. Yeah. And so where people are leaving the country to go get treatments and it's like, these treatments should be available here. We don't need Big Brother impacting. every decision. And I get like protecting the consumer, but where was that protection with glyphosates?

Where was that protection with the antidepressants, with the oxycotton, with the level of corruption we've seen from our regulatory bodies that are supposed to be here to protect us, right? And those people are swapping spit oftentimes with industry at a level that's nauseating. But it's challenging because you might be doing something in a way that is ethical. But if you've got another compounding pharmacy like in Florida where they're putting all this crap and how do we protect the people. I do believe in medical agency that people should have the freedom to do whatever they want. If they want to use a medication because they have five pounds to lose, they should be able to get to choose. We should not as physicians ever dictate what an individual wants to do. There has to be

agency. But then the question is how do we protect the people that don't know and think they're getting one thing. I think we have to assess it as a different model. That's where I keep going with this. There's the insurance model and then there's the cash pay model. And in the cash pay model, we don't need a new drug indication that costs $300 to a billion because it's going to stifle and limit innovation. And that entire model was built around a framework that was built by industry that has a reason to build a moat around accessibility of care because they are monetizing chronic disease at an astronomical level. That's why the average American in the 80s was on one prescription drug and now the average American's on four or more prescription drugs and everybody's made,

but we're the sickest country developed nation in the world. So in a perfect world for you, like in a cash pay not model, there would be right to try in every state. I think right to try and under the supervision of a clinician. That's an important caveat. Like I believe in putting my doctor holding me back. I believe in I believe in the sacred relationship. I believe in the sacred relationship of a patient and clinician. I believe that most clinicians, when given the opportunity, want to do what is right for their patient. And oftentimes their hands are tied. And they will go, like even you, you were very weary to say, I have a patient who's sick, but I don't want to prescribe off label because it puts your license at risk. But that's a travesty because that patient

needs help. And we shouldn't have to look over our shoulder. I remember this was during COVID. I had written a prescription for an indication for Ivermectin for something. This was before it was all crazy. And I got a letter saying that if I ever did this again, that it would affect my license. And it was a different. Address to the horse paste doc. But also this person, we test for parasites all the time. There was an indication that whatever, they didn't care whether I'd put that indication. They shut us down as a pharmacy. They sent us a letter saying they would revoke our pharmacy license in the state of Texas. If we ship Ivermectin, if we ship one more prescription of Ivermectin that they would shut down our farm. I can ship ketamine. But you're not allowed to ship I have a horse.

You imagine. You should ship me I have a horse though, right? But can you imagine as a provider being restricted, being told that, that I can't write a script for a. That can help someone. But they, they don't know what I'm treating. We treat parasites all the time. And it was just, it's terrifying because providers, clinicians, we spent our lives dedicated to be able to care for people. Talking about experimental forward thinking stuff, getting into some fun. things. What are the most exciting interventions that you've come across recently, some of the most experimental things that you've been playing around with? Oh, man. I mean, we were just talking about plasma phreasis. That's an interesting one just because there's all sorts of different blood

and plasma filtration protocols that people are turning to for microplastics, for lipid management, for mold. Can you explain the plasma thresis? Beyond plasma. I did it, by the way, way it raised well. Like, yeah, like, literally like pulling, pulling your, your blood out. filtering the plasma, replacing typically with either albumen or in some cases like actual human plasma or like Brigham has this soup of like stem cells and exosomes and all sorts of cool stuff that you could get put in. And so the idea is it's like an oil changed for the body. And, you know, there's even places like in Mexico and Europe that will do blood filtration, not just plasma, different filtration mediums that are designed for different purposes.

Like there's a heparin-based filter that is designed for spike protein, right? Like a sticky flytrap for spike protein for something like long COVID. There's another one called the marker filter that is for microplastics. That's a specific filtration medium for that. So that's one that a lot of people are like electively doing out of pocket. A lot of times internationally like TPE. Like you can literally do that at Brigham's Clinic. Like you can do a basic plasmapheresis very easily,

depending on how many times you're squeezing the little rubber ball that you get to hold two, you know, four, five hours, but you're just basically sitting in a chair. And then the problem with that, though, is like when that was what I was alluding to earlier, when a guy like Joe posts that, immediately it's like, this is my moment for these clinicians. And they just tag his video and throw it up. And they're trying to just riff and go coast off of the momentum that he created for it.

debunking it, right? And this is where I get, it's like, you're an academic. You're now trying to debunk a placebo-controlled randomized trial. Like, at what point do we, like, pick, pick aside. Do you believe in randomized control trial or do you not? You know, like. Well, presumably they're saying that they have contrary data to the first randomized controlled trial. His main thing is, there's only one major study that demonstrated this and the rest is anecdotal. But they've used plasma phoresis in hospital systems for decades. So plasma phoresis, so plasma is where they believe that the antibodies. So for example, if someone has a reaction to something within their body, depending on what the disease is, it exists within the plasma. It's concentrated somehow. Again,

I'm not an immunologist, but to the best of my knowledge, within this plasma, it's also where toxins and all this other stuff live that say wouldn't be able to be excreted by the body through urine or feces or sweat naturally. So plasmapheresis is used in hospitals to this day where they use it for things that are, you know, extreme. Burned victims, anyone who's been exposed to a level of mold and toxins. A real world example too would be, again, jelly roll like, I hate to keep saying it, but he, because he lost so much weight, he was chronically inflamed, even though we were doing a ton of things to bring down his inflammation. All of that weight loss, you can only sweat it out so much. You can only excrete it.

so many ways, it ends up putting a major load on the kidneys in the... And a lot of it back to, like, glass... But it's transferred. And then it started impacting his sleep. And then as soon as we run him through plasmapheresis, he calls me, he's like, blah, whatever the hell you all just did, I have not slept discreet in years. Yeah, people talk about like a sauna for, you know, do the natural version, just sweat it out. But I mean, if you look at the size of a microplastic, they range, like, the unit of measurement

is a Dalton. And so the size of a microplastic range is anywhere from, like, slightly interoperative. hundred to up to a thousand Dalton's. And what a sweat gland can actually pass through is like 100 Dalton's. So arguably maybe one-tenth of the microplastic exposure that you have, you can actually sweat out in a sauna. And considering that most of the microplastics, for example, in the food supply, like a plastic packaging or drinking out of a cup and Starbucks are way larger than 100 Dalton's. You just can't get rid of that in the sauna. Like it's an inconvenient truth. But if it's getting into your body, at this point, it's pretty difficult to remove it.

There are, there are some gut binders. There's probably like 10 different supplement companies. Like I'm like, yeah, just over the past few months, people have been like mailing me, whatever, like a sulfurophane based compound for microplastic removal or some other like binding binding stack that supposedly removes it from the gut and possibly via some sort of osmotic gradient from the tissue as well. But none of those are that proven. And so that's an example of like, well, at some point, you just got to.

filter it out. The problem with that is it's, you know, it's a long and expensive protocol that not everybody's going to do. But eventually, maybe there will be a way to democratize it. We've seen that with a lot of medical treatments. That's the goal with all of this is to make it affordable for the masses. And I think the biggest thing I've seen is- I think we should on Shark Tank, like to suck it and just pulls everything out. Wait, what is that? I've never seen that. How long does it take your body to replace the plasma? Because I think this is one of the concerns, you've got this period of time, you've gotten rid of all with this plasm.

So you're immediately, what you'll do is we'll add back in albumin. And so you immediately have that replenishment. The big critique is, or what people have tried to critique, is there is a drop in your immune system. But the truth is that drop is for 24 hours. So we were just talking to one of your buddies and he just did it. But then he got on a flight. I was like, ooh, man, I would not have done that.

And what happened? Did he get sick? He felt run down. Yeah, it's that. There's also the risk of the catheter. depending on where that is placed, having like a rupture or an issue. But you have a compromised immune system for 24 hours. So that is a legitimate risk.

And this is, again, anything in medicine, you have that discussion. You make sure you tell that patient for the next 24 hours, you will have a compromised immune system. And then after that, your immune response is boosted. And all of that inflammation that was in your plasma is removed. And all of those shock proteins and all these different things that are causing so many issues, we're basically taking out the trash and replacing years and years of inflammation and gunk with albumin, young, clean albumin.

What's albumin? It's literally a, yeah, it's just a protein that instead of, and some people were replaced. Same thing about egg white. Egg white has a ton of albumin in it. It's just basically, you're putting egg white. Yeah, I mean, very, very similar. Okay. What are the strongest longevity interventions that are cost-free?

Because much of this stuff sounds maybe difficult to access, people are outside of the country. So, yeah, epidemiologically, yes, lifting. grip strength is often identified as a metric, but it's not because people who have like big, meaty hands live longer. It's because people who lift heavy objects and do some type of manual labor or artificial manual labor inside of a gym

tend to have high grip strength as a byproduct of that. So you're not going to live longer by having like a hand grip dynamometer in your car that you're squeezing all the time. It will make a little bit of a difference, but physical activity that exhaust the grip would be one. V-O-2 max is another, And I think the misperception is that you need to do these like fancy Norwegian four by four protocols to significantly increase VO2 max, meaning like four minutes, maximum sustainable pace, balls through the wall, four minute recovery four times through as a sample prescribed protocol for VO2 max.

I mean, just yesterday, there was a study that came out that showed that small burst, anywhere from three to five times a week of 10 to 20 seconds, had an impact on VO2 max. So these are like tiny bursts Like on an aerodyne just quicks You think a VO2 max A muscle mass is more important When it comes to training for longevity If you could pick one I would

If I would choose If I had to pick one I would choose muscle mass Because I think low muscle mass I'm not just saying this Because Gabriel's sitting next to me I kicked him out of the air Which is a higher risk for frailty

And I think frailty Is one of the Like not being able to outrun a lion Is less likely to kill you than like stepping off the curb and being frail, like with the VO2 Max equation. Like, joking aside, yes, VO2 Max can have a significant impact on cardiovascular health, but you can get pretty good cardiovascular health, including blood pressure management,

with strength training. So if I had to choose one, it's an unrealistic scenario anyways, based on how easy it is to do V2 Max. You do both. And then the last one that I would name is like a free intervention, if we're not going to talk about, like Harvard's longest running study on longevity on, you know, happiness, relationships, love, all of that. Have a friend. Boring, esoteric stuff aside, I would be walking speed.

Yes, 7,000 to 8,000 steps today is advisable, but the actual speed of walking, the pace, like the actual cadence of the walking, is important. So, V-O-2 max grip strength and walking speed. What is the specific that I would choose? I don't remember the actual, like, pace-based stuff. on whatever you would measure in like ARCD or whatever. The way I think about it is like walk slightly faster than what your brain wants to do. There was, I don't know if it's still available, a device called a counterpace,

like a heart rate strap that you could wear that tied to ear pods that tracks your heart rate and then helps you maintain a cadence that matches that heart rate so that your foot strike is occurring during the diastolic phase of heart pumping. So you're essentially like teaching your heart how to pump with each step. So that's like very similar like counter pulsation therapy. They would do it at a hospital for like post heart attack. But the idea is just like when you're walking, try to walk. It's like resonance breathing, but residence walking.

Kind of like that. You're up and down with the breath. But this is your step and step with the heartbeat. Yeah. That's fine. Okay. Yeah. Those would be three. I think if you were to look at the B.O2 Max versus muscle mass thing,

if you were to say somebody is a five out of ten on both, where would you start? because it seems to me that the muscle mass thing is largely talking about being protective in late life, frailty, falls, hip replacements, stuff like that. Metabolic health. Yeah. I don't know. I just coming from the background of being such a bro, V-O-2 Max was never anything that anybody really considered.

And it seems like that's really had in the ascendancy recently. Yeah. And it gets chased a lot as a number. It's largely reflective of cardiovascular health. I mean, it's definitely like if you're competing as like, I don't, Ironman marathon or swimmer or whatever, like V-O-2 max is important. as a performance metric. But the reason that it tracks with longevity

is not necessarily because maximum oxygen utilization is going to help you live longer. At least I don't think that. I think it's because it's reflective of overall cardiovascular health in the same way that grip strength, you know, having strong hands. I can hold on to something for a long period of time

isn't going to make you live longer. But what you got you those strong hands is... Everything Ben's saying is like that's when I, again, go back to what you do, what we do, comparing it to traditional medicine, somebody comes in, the first thing we do is comprehensive blood work. That's one tool in the one assessment.

But we also run them through a Dexa, and then we do a V-O-2 max, a walking V-O-2 max, to assess their cardiovascular condition. You give me those three things. I put it into the AI algorithm. I cross-reference all of that, and we begin to model out all-cause mortality, and I can begin to project if you're headed towards a chronic disease.

So like, in traditional medicine, somebody shows up sick, you write him a pill. Somebody gets it, you mask the symptom. And it's like, but why aren't we just practicing proactive, predictive medicine? Like what you're doing in your practice, you can prevent 1.7 million Americans are dying every year of chronic disease. That's more than every war we've ever fought in the history of America in a year. And it's all preventable. But it's not longevity.

And I wish there was another name for it because the reality is, and I think it's health span. I think it's muscle span. But, yeah, health span. But I think, you know, as a geriatrician, which means I've taken care of a lot. of dying people, that there is a one harsh reality. And that is nobody gets out alive, no one. And so is this, you know, increase in longevity just a distraction from the end result, which is that we will all die. And at some point, we have to recognize that that it's going to happen. It is how we live within that time frame. And, you know, maybe there's a genetic push past 85.

We don't know. I mean, there's genetics play a role. We know some people that smoke and eat tacos and live to be 105. So, yes, being strong, being capable, not restricting protein. I know that you had a guess that was talking about protein restriction. That's not where I would say that. Not a lot of people need to hear that right now. But on a point, my argument is always if we can buy you time.

I would say we can buy your health span time. It's the quality of the time. There are folks like David Sinclair, my buddy, Dr. Ian White, Ian's 22-year stem cell research at Harvard at the bench. Yeah, those are interesting. And what he'll break down is pretty crazy. And this is why I have dinosaurs and jellyfish at our clinic. I was wondering about that. He literally breaks down that we share a common ancestor with every species on Earth.

We share DNA with the eternal jellyfish. Within us is a black box code. And there are companies in Texas right now that are doing gene activation. and we can literally inject you with a virus that will go turn on a gene that has been turned off, right? We can tell your body to put on more muscle. We can turn on a gene that can increase bone mineral density eightfold. These things exist today. And so my only thing, getting more into the biohacking woo-woo like futuristic is can we buy you time?

Can we through common practice, not the woo-woo's through just good old bread and butter, smart medicine, buy you health span. until one of these brilliant people crack the code of how do we turn on that gene? How do we turn on the jellyfish gene? Where we all live for 150 years, flooding in the dark. And aging is not abnormal. The idea that we're not going to, I mean, aging is normal, but the chronic disease, that's not normal. That's not a normal part of aging. And we've come to normalize all of that.

And that's a problem. Yeah. So if we stop stigmatizing testosterone and allow us to replace the things that we need, Yeah. Yeah. Well, perhaps there's a through line here because if you downregulate fertility enough and don't have children, that might be a viable life extension strategy, setting a message to your lizard brain that you better stick around as long as possible because you have no progeny.

So once you're gone, hold on. You got to hold on. So, yeah, basically, I would say the most significantly, potentially significantly impactful life extension strategy. Not having kids. Don't have kids. Don't have kids. Okay. What do you make about the criticism? So Dr. Daniel Lieberman, who came on the show and I asked him about what's he think the current recommendations coming out of, I guess, our side of the world around one gram per pound, one gram per pound to one gram per pound of body weight for protein. And he just sort of lucked him as like, I think it's overblown. I don't think that people need that much. It doesn't really seem to make that much sense to me from a longevity standpoint. It doesn't seem to be that much evidence. I've looked at every big diet on the planet.

That's interesting. He wasn't invited to the protein working group, which was all the 100 finest scientists, protein scientists. And they disagreed on some things and they agreed on others. I don't know this gentleman. So it's not a knock to him. But in this room, these were the finest protein researchers from all over. Would that not mean that they're kind of biased? No, you don't all get along. So some of them are low protein researchers? So, well, yes, they are all the protein experts. Some agree on 1.1. I mean, they're all over the place. So what they do is they present the evidence to the best of their ability, all the evidence that have been done. And what they came up with is that there is no evidence that going below the minimum requirement has benefit at all. So going below like 0.5 grams for power. They argued is it could you go from what is 1.1 better than 1.4 potentially is anything better than 1.6 grams? No, no one agreed that. So that's not one gram per pound. What about protein cycling? Like like the idea from like an autophagy standpoint of like a fasting mimicking diet on a quarterly basis. A period of protein restriction to simulate. So they covered that.

So they covered that. And then most of the time you're actually eating where the 0.8 to 1.2 grams So to be clear, I was not invited there as a guest researcher, but I was there interviewing these guys. And one of the things that was interesting is that in terms of human trials, it seems as though the sweet spot for aging and optimal health to find that as you will is closer to 1.2 to 1.6 grams per kg. So it's not 1 gram per pound, which is what I recommend. It's slightly below that. And what you're talking about is this idea of protein cycling. So the body turns over 250 to 300 grams of protein a day. As we age, we become less efficient at that, liver turnover, all of this stuff. As we age, if we then begin to restrict protein, this is not moving in a positive direction.

And all the aging, there's no aging data in humans that would suggest that that would be beneficial. Is his argument that we're over consuming protein? The data doesn't support. I was going to say, because most people, I feel like everyone I know doesn't. I think he was making an epidemiological case. Or observational or association. If I know the Lieberman you're talking about that you don't come across a lot of long-lid cultures who are feeding at the levels that are currently recommended, you know, by a, you know, a cook like this.

Here's what. Do you not see? Yeah. I'd like to keep it simple stupid because my brain's not smart enough to figure all this out. I did give you my book, which has pictures. Yes. And I've read it. But what I learned...

Riggin tried to color them in. That's why I was... Yeah, I thought it was a coloring book. Let me fair. The Forever Strong Playbook, I will give it a plug. It took me two years to write. And it has pictures to make it simple and stupid. And it's digestible.

I love it. And my main thought was... He actually ate it. Yeah, if we prioritize... I've learned in my life. If I prioritize protein, it is a caloric, dense, nutrient-rich aspect of my diet. And I will eat less of the ultra-processed, less of all the bad things.

Just anecdotally, I'm not saying, there's no science behind what I'm saying. I'm just looking at it going, if I prioritize protein, it fills me. It shows my appetite. Yeah, it's hard to overeat. If I eat a steak, I'm done. Yeah. And so do you not see a value in, or would he not see a value in prioritizing protein first as part of your diet? You're arguing for the benefits of protein intake as a calorie restriction mechanism.

Yes. Yeah. And do you know? I imagine you would do too. I think my question is something like what do you think about one gram per pound of body weight. It's on the higher end. That seems to be more than is necessary. I would agree with that statement. That is more than is necessary. I mean, it depends too. Like I have 18-year-old sons and they're probably hitting 1.4 to 1.5 grams per pound right now based on my grocery bills. But they're also highly anabolic. They're doing like leaves. They're lifting every day. So it's pretty population specific. What about... That is exactly what they came to in the summit. What about fiber? There you go.

Because I've been pretty good at sort of licking my finger, putting in the air and working out what way the wind's blowing. I think the protein thing, everyone could see a little while ago. Creatine, I was early on creatine. I was early on water quality. I think air quality, stuff like Jasper and mold. I think that's going to be a huge thing. Next, after that, I think, is going to be light, light quality and light pollution.

I think. And it's slowly sort of trickling through the air. echelons of health. Fiber to me seems to be just about sort of taking that. It's at the hockey stick moment here. And I get the sense that protein and fiber are going to be a little antagonistic to each other when it comes to designing a diet. So I'm interested in what you guys think when it comes to fiber optimizing gut health. Everyone gives a fuck about bloating and digestion and leaky gut. That's exactly. I don't think that high protein intake necessarily rules out fiber. but what you were just saying is the one thing that flies under the radar.

Yes, fiber is beneficial for everything from glycemic variability to bowel movements to the microbiome and the fact that it's often a food for probiotics leading to postbiotic production. The issue is the large number of the population that has issues like small intestine, bacterial overgrowth or diverticulitis or some form of ibupybio. or an issue that results in them hearing that the giant ass kale salads are a really good idea, and that they should put a bunch of spinach in their smoothies, and I just totally Fs them over, and they're painting the back of the toilet seat. So I think that it depends again on, like, what the gut biome looks like,

and what someone's especially like the gas production by specific bacteria in the gut looks like before you decide what kind of fiber someone should be on, or the fermentable nature of that fiber, like inulin and chicory, and shit, like that completely screws some people over as far as gas and loading. And then for other people, it's great gut food. It feels like fiber is much more individually variable that you could probably look at most people and say, yeah, if you had like one gram per kilo of body weight of protein, like you'd probably be all right.

Whereas, yeah, if you threw a bunch of oxalates at one person from spinach that's not being cooked, they're going to have a very different response to somebody else who doesn't have that kind of gut microflora. Yeah, I think that's, I think that is a frontier that we do. don't know enough about. My prediction is the food matrix conversation is next. The bro bodybuilding sphere, we're great. There's, I guess I would include myself in there. Boil chicken, egg whites, we know what the protein is. We know the macros, rice, chicken. But what we don't know is how, for example, there was a study that came out on high fat dairy. We don't actually understand how the

fat in dairy, the compounds, then work with the protein and the carbohydrates within that food matrix. It's not repeatable. It's not supplementation. It is within the dynamic of, say, for example, a steak, yes, has protein, yes, has B vitamins, but it has an cerine, touring, it has these other, what you imagine as a phytonutrient in plant. It has its own carne nutrient. And it's how those all fit together. We don't really know how the foods all work together. Is it possible for you guys to give general advice when it comes to fiber and eating for gut health through a diet because it seems, again, this fingerprint, each person's flora is slightly different. What are the, we can say, hey, one gram per kilo of body weight protein, that's probably a good

baseline. Can you give me equivalent baselines when it comes to fiber intake for humans who just want to have good diet? Well, I can cheat here because I'm a doctor, so we test. We don't guess. We do stool tests. We do breath tests. We do tests. So if you have small tests, bacterial overgrowth, we would treat that, we would put you on a diet that was essentially low fodmap. So there's ways that you can experiment, but also tests, so you're guessing less. And low fodmamp isn't necessarily synonymous with low fiber, but you're literally limiting fruit tans, oligosaccharides, disaccharides, what else? Monosaccharides and oils. And so these are specific compounds that if you were to Google high fodmap diet, you would want to avoid because

those are sources of fiber that would cause gas and bloating. But that doesn't mean that you can't eat fiber at all. You can do like on a low-fat diet, you can do like chia seed slurry, right? Like put a bunch of cheese and water, soak them, have that as like a pudding. A lot of times like seeds and nuts, you know, the fiber and the skin in those, that would also be acceptable. But then like apples, pears, garlic, onions, all that stuff would be out. And in some cases like mixed greens, romaine lettuce, like a lot of things you'd find a salad. those are fine. You know, kale, it kind of depends because then there's the whole thing you brought up,

which is like is oxley sensitivity an issue. So Gabriel makes a great point. It's like we now live in an era where you could get like a Genova diagnostic stool test. You could get a Trio Smart, you know, a Cbo breath test and see if you're reactive to certain fiber-based foods. Those tests are not that expensive. We can't just give this. Well, hey, you're going to get a breathe into a tube every couple of minutes for a couple of hours. What you could say is like have 40 grams of fiber a day or more. And if you have gas or bloating when you start doing that, go get tested to figure out what's causing the gas. Yeah, we always say yes, but.

Like, anyways to what we'll say yes, but like, yes, this is a good rule of thumb, but there's always outliers. Everybody's different. Personalized medicine should take a personalized touch. To do that, it requires the analytics and the data to have the knowledge of you specifically and you're a unique individual. So let's look at you as a unique individual and tailor a unique program. And it sounds like almost that's what you are both saying.

This is why people feel overwhelmed by health, I think, in the modern world. Because they're like, oh, what, I've got to go and get this fucking special fingerprint thing done. And I don't know where to go. Or maybe I'm in a country that can't provide it. Or maybe I'm going to have to pay out of pocket and I can't afford it. And then I'm going to do it. And then I'm going to adjust on that stuff. I mean, there are workarounds and there are levels.

Like, for example, with what we're talking about with the FodMap and the Sibo issue, there's like an at-home breath testing device called a food marble. And it gets a pretty decent corollary. It's not as good as like a more expensive lab-based test. But it can help you to keep track of primarily the fiber. foods that would cause something like bloating. The other thing is just simple food elimination, right? Yeah, there's always an answer.

This is the old school tactic for, well, let's cut everything out. Let's start from scratch. You're going to have steak and chicken and fish and maybe some sweet potato match, kind of like a paleo-esque type of approach. And then you could start to add in some grains, some dairy, some different forms of fiber. And you're going to get to the point where you can identify within like four weeks. An app, right?

To track. And what was it that I added in? You could use an app. I mean, you can easily use like a clock. or GPT model now to literally say, okay, here's everything I ate, here's my gas and loading symptoms. And within four weeks, you're going to get a pretty good map of the culprits. It doesn't have to be complicated to be effective. And we live in the information overload. And that's the disease. The disease is distraction. We can fully simplify. People know what

works well for them. If they don't, they can track it. But you eliminate, you keep it simple, and you add things in slowly. I think we overcomplicated it. That's what we were saying. kind of where I was going with the protein is, as I say, don't let, you know, don't let perfection get in the way of progress and it's baby steps. You don't have to be perfect. Just be better. Make slightly better choices. Test things out. Like, you're not going to die if you try a fiber and it doesn't work out for you and you're bloated and have stomach upset for a few days. There was a pear besor. Someone ate. It was something like 300 pairs and they actually got a, you know, the hair ball of a, it's actually called a pear besor. And it

created a small bowel obstruction. Who the fuck eats 300? It was one case study. I think 300 anything is going to cause a small bowel obstruction. I could easily do 300 blueberry stage. I will take on the small bowel obstruction challenge. I could make it happen. Do you guys follow a specific diet?

Yeah, it's called the Forever Strong Playbook. What is it? No, no. So it's a higher protein diet. I don't eat a ton of processed food at all. Prioritized protein. We make it very simple. I have two crazy kids.

And what about like grains, dairy, like a lot of the stuff that people avoid? And I think we're starting to see that it has protective effects. We do high fat dairy, fermented foods. The one thing that we don't eat is a ton of package processed foods. Yeah. Aside from like beef sticks. Right. But it's sweet potato, we'll eat rice.

I'm not a low-carb person. Yeah. It sounds very like Westin A price-ish where grains aren't eliminated, but they need to be like fermented or soaked or sprouted, dairy. is like the full fat varietal, good meats, fermented vegetables. Where have you come into land now, Ben? Obviously, you've experimented. I'm pretty close to a paleo diet with a lot of fermented vegetables.

Like most of my carbohydrates are like underground storage organs, like sweet potato, yam, purple potato, berries, and honey. Most of my vegetables are kimchi, sourcrow. and then a lot of hunted wild game meat, super clean fish that is farmed, not wild caught, so I know the exact sourcing and that is clean, what has been fed, steak, chicken, poultry, or pastured pork.

And then I do, like my dessert is typically coconut yogurt. Like I go through that, what was it called? Coco June. So good. Oh, my gosh. That's the brand. Oh, it's so good. Coco June, blueberries, dark chocolate is not only my dessert, but I've eaten twice today, and that was my meal, was just Cocoa June, blueberries, dark chocolate.

And then a little bit of nuts, I got academia, Brazil nuts, and that's pretty much it. So it's all the peptides. Why are you getting a fish from? A company called Cetopia. They've got like 30 plus different farms around the world, and they very tightly control what the fish is fed. they are tested for things like microplastics, parasites, and then they flash freeze and ship to your house, and they've got a pretty good varietal,

just like o'er king salmon and halibut, some shellfish scallops, and it's the cleanest stuff I could find. What was that steak company that you gift to me? And I hope they've got a check in the mail now to me. That was insane. Okay, so this crazy breed of cattle that originates. He'd munties.

Middle East Monty's fucking rules. Shout out. No more Pied Montes. Not Pied Montes, kind of. So this breed of cattle originated from the Middle East, and A, they have the myelstatin knockout gene, meaning they've got this like unparalleled muscle growth, big Arnold Schwarzenegger-esque cows. The result of that is that the muscle fiber thickness is like one-16th diameter of a normal

like Angus cow. So it's super digestible. Like a medium rare is like nine. 95 degrees. That's how fast it cooks. But then these cattle have also developed, based on their origination, sweat glands, which is also something that is less common, but one of the key contributors to off-flavored or tough meat in general, whether it's hunted meat or farmed meat or anything else, is cortisol. I have no idea. It's cortisol. So cortisol upregulation causes calcium influx, basically the, you know, the effect of like, chronic rigor mortis,

but a cow that can manage thermal stress eliminates one of the most common sources of cortisol in cattle, which is like being subjected to extremes of heat or cold and being unable to deal with it. So these cows wound up in Canada. There was like a Canadian farmer up north on the west side who had like one bowl and three cows. A guy, a horse farmer in Washington State connected with these folks in Canada like 30 years ago. This better be the best-le-s. Ships some across the border. This is like the Adam and Eve of the towel.

A year and a half ago, I get an Instagram message from this farm by Spokane. And they're like, we have the only 100% pure Piedmontese beef in all of North America. And you can only find this stuff now in Italy and the Middle East. So it hasn't getting bread with Angus, which, so a lot of the Piedmontese is like 75, 25, or 50-50. So then I actually went to the farm. Pure bread. Long story short is I'm like, what is it grass fed, grass finished? They're like, no, it's like grass fed, acorn fed,

dressed wine, grapeskin fed, carrots. Like customized from birth. And so long story short is I got a whole steer and these things are massive. I got it like almost two years ago and I'm still or they store it all at the farm and they shipped to me. So I'm still ordering off this spreadsheet like me and my wife and 18 old sons have still not eating this whole cow. It's like a time chef of food. That's the meat. It is, it is the weirdest he dropped me some and how I knew. I tried to eat it off. The problem with it is it's so lean. They, they butchered it. And I'm like, I would love to have some of the tallow because,

you know, tallow is great to cook with and do your potatoes with. They're like, dude, there is no tallow. These things are so lean that they're just like no dripping, no fat whatsoever. So when you cook it, I actually use a lot of extra like olive oil, towel, extra or tallow, extra fat because I think the flavor profile when you don't have the fat is just still a little bit too lean. But yeah, that's the stakes. So wait a second. So the listener or the watcher is thinking, I'm never going to get that cow. You know, I tried to get some of this meat. I couldn't get it. I talked to the founder. I'm like, how many cows do you guys have? Like on VIP meat. It goes to the professional footballers. They do a lot of like NHL. They do. They do. Okay. But for the

other people, there are meal delivery services. I use one that's only a Texas and Oregon and Denver. And they use, there's this company, gosh, what are they? Not Pied Montes. What is it? Grazing. There's another one. Well, anyway. I don't know. Did the delivery drivers have sweat glands, though? But I just say that for someone who's listening. So anyway, there is a company and it's called My Fit Foods. And they're available in Texas. They use grass fed, grass finished. It's for those of us that can't get the crazy house. What about beans? I haven't heard you say anything about beans in your time. They have beans in it. Beans do not agree with me, so I don't want to talk about those. No, it is interesting because you're thinking soluble fiba. You see that the whole like Blue Zones data, which is rife with birth record issues and falsified data. But I think you could make a case that legumes and beans in general do provide good fermentable substrate for the microbiome.

It's just that in many people, including myself, those bacteria produce massive amounts of gas. I'm not a chili guy I don't know about you guys I love I love chili I don't know whether it loves me but I absolutely love it So why the fiber? Why are you interested in fiber?

I just have this prediction seeing what's happening with probiotic fiber at the moment Olipop, poppy, Bloompop, that whole world looking at what happened with AG1 with companies like Seed with David Beckham's new thing

IMA like everybody is if you want to sell shit to women, put bloating on the front of a piece of packaging. Every woman's worried about bloating. How much of this is just artificial solution to artificial problem? Tons of high calorie, highly processed foods, sugar, fermented foods. Maybe there's some EPG in there or some other bullshit going on. Like, whatever it is that's happening, it's causing people to feel digestively off. And now they're looking for what the solution is. We've already been through the protein revolution. Creating revolution's happening now.

I already know. I think people are now buying more fiber supplements than protein supplements. I think the problem is, though, paradoxically, fiber contributes to a lot of the issues that you just described. And I think the elephant in the room is that one of the primary causes of all of that gas and bloating is lack of digestive enzyme production and slowed gastric emptying. and most of the things that happen when you eat quickly or in a stressed out state, which basically defines a lot of our culture's eating habits. So I think that like slow eating and eating in a parasympathetic state would be way better for people's gas and bloating than like sucking down a bottle of inulin.

Did you see that study that came out recently looking at people eat at people's eating speed in the GLP1 endogenous GLP1 release? Did you see this? Can you explain it? Yeah. So the body releases GLP1 naturally. typically it rides, and I didn't see this study particularly, but it rides with protein. So once you get a protein bolus, it should release GLP1. It should be very short-lived, and you should be done. Protein increases satiety through this mechanism. Also, I believe that there's some fat. But the faster you eat, the faster it gets there, I'm assuming that the GLP-1 would have less. So grazing more slowly meant that you got a high release of GLP-1, which meant that you were more satisfied more quickly.

satisfy more, but the question is how long does that, yeah, how long does that last? That would not be comparable to a long half-life of a gLP one. Yeah. Period. I mean, all, all I know is that if you look at digestive enzyme production and you, you look at like vasoconstriction, lack of blood flow to the gut, slowed gastric emptying, like, it is better for you to not suck down your superfood smoothie while you're driving 60 miles an hour down the highway on your way to work. And I have, I'd rather just see someone fast or wait until they can actually be in a parasympathetic state to eat. What's the current data around fasting? Because it seems to have been bunked and rebunked so many times.

Autophagy, maybe it does work, maybe it doesn't work. Yeah. Is it just calorie restriction? Is it an easier route to calorie restriction? Is there something super special about 16-8s or? So the basic idea is that when you go head-to-head, something like an intermittent fasting study, with overall calorie restriction, there is no big winner. There's nothing magic about fasting that beats out just like shoving fewer calories into your gaping maw.

The advantage is that with a compressed feeding window, it becomes more difficult to eat excess calories. And that's mostly the case until you get past about the 18-hour mark of fasting. Past the 18-hour mark, that's when you start to see cellular autophagy and a lot of these longevity. mechanisms kick in that could make the case for an occasional longer fast. Obviously, like activity level and what kind of anabolic phase of life that you're in, et cetera, would dictate that. But my recommendation to most men is like a 12 to 16 hour overnight, intermittent fast, and every once in a while go longer than 18 hours, like a 24 hour dinner time to dinner time fast, like once a month, for example. And then back to that protein cycling, protein restriction thing,

something like a quarterly fasting-mimicking diet, right? Where you're slightly underfeeding protein, slightly underfeeding calories, but it's just for a few days to simulate like a famine type of scenario. Yeah. And then for the reason I said for men is for premenopausal women regularly fasting for longer than 12 hours may have an impact on Kispeptin, which is upstream of LH and FSAH, which are fertility-related hormones. And so women close to the 12-hour, guys close to 12 to 16 hours, postmenopause of women would be closer to the 12 to 16 hour mark. But that's basically the way that I do fasting is 12 to 16 hours, intermittent fast daily, quarterly fasting mimicking diet about once a month, 24 hour dinner to dinner. So you're saying there is something special

in the autophagy, in the cell clearance, intermittent versus grazing and just restriction? Once you get past 18 hours, but in most cases, the definition of intermittent fasting is not these like long one to three day fast. Intermittent fasting is typically like a daily compressed feeding window and usually it tops out at around 16 hours. But you think there is some special source in a 24 hour fast. There is occasionally. You just have to balance like the anabolic catabolic scenario. Yeah, there's other ways to do it. Through training, there's different mechanisms. Yeah, there's other ways. And so if you are somebody who is, um, who is at risk of frailty or you're just trying to yoke or No one who's at risk of frailty listens to this podcast.

That's not true. My mom does. She's not at risk of frailty. I gave real's mom. Talking about longevity tests, you know, we're looking at the things that people should be paying attention to. Where do you think people are wasting money or effort or time the most, either on diagnostic or intervention side things for health more generally?

Like, is there a particular type of test that's widely regarded that people think is bullshit? What do you reckon? I mean, there's there's ones that like we even do, but it just gives you more knowledge, like the MTFHR, but you can do that through process of analysis, of elimination, like you had said, like cutting, adapting which supplements you take and using methylated supplements. There's, is it a necessity? No, if you, you could just do that through process of elimination and save money. I think, and this might be a little bit of a contrarian stance, but I think there is a great deal of emphasis placed right now. now on cardiovascular risk potential based on either a cardiovascular risk score, right? Do you have high blood pressure, smoking history, family history of cardiovascular disease, et cetera, and what does your lipid panel look like, right?

Not just like the basic stuff like LDLHGL fgill triglycerides, LP little A, Apple B. The issue is that that can be a clue, but definitely not a telltale sign of actual plaque deposition in the heart. And I am increasingly convinced after seeing so many people come back from their CCTAs, like an angiography of the heart, like a CT scan. Usually with AI-based diagnostic imaging, clearly. Both hard and soft. To actually show, yes, wear hard, more stable, hard plaque, which you would typically see in more of like an athletic population who scarred up their heart a little bit, or unstable,

more likely to break loose plaque resulting in a stroke or heart attack lies. Right. So the AI-based diagnostic imaging can tell you that. And the reason that's important is because in many cases, people, including myself, have a pretty good lipid panel, right? LDLHGLomerase, yada, yada, yada, but then you do the CT angiography and you actually see plaque deposition that if not monitored and addressed, either, you know, allopathically with like a lotostatin or a PCSK9 inhibitor or some of those. Exactly. Exactly. Or more non-traditionally, right, with enzymes like lumbrokinase, natokinase, there's a new cyclonextrin that's being in trial right now to actually break down the plaque.

You actually could be at risk and not even know it, or you could alternatively, like, be on a statin or a path or whatever else due to high cholesterol and not even need it because you don't have any plaque deposition. So the idea of like imaging for the heart, you know, indirect answer to your question. is like, I think myopically focusing on a lipid panel is either A, causing people to be prescribed a medication that they might not need, or B, telling them they're okay when in fact there can be significant plaque. So you're saying rather than obsessing over lipid panel, you would just go and get a clear list going on. I think anybody who has a history of hard exercise, anybody who has a family history of cardiovascular disease, I'm not a doctor, by the way, don't take this as medical advice. I think even like perimenopause, you know, that the risk goes up significantly. We always get what you're saying.

I agree with it. I agree with it. So traditionally, which is really interesting, after men leave the pediatrician, there's no need for them to go to the doctor. For example, women go to OBGYN, you know, they get a gynaecological exam, but men, they leave the, why would you have to go to the doctor? They don't really have a reason, which is a mistake. So getting a baseline testosterone, baseline cardiovascular testing is great, like your boy's age now, but then not necessarily treating with medication. Having a baseline exam by 40, we recommend that you have a baseline heart scan, both hard and soft plaque. What would be the gold standard for that? Clearly. Clearly. Clearly. Yeah. Did that fucking clearly thing? But now if you do that for muscle, so right now with a dexia, I think this is where the future is going,

Right now we look at a dexia. Dexia compartmentalizes bone, body fat percentage, and then extrapolates lean body mass. But we don't look at muscle quality. You and I've talked about this a lot. We're not imaging routinely muscle quality. I believe they do it in Japan, whether through ultrasound or MRI, where you see.

You can occasionally see it if you get a treatment done, like a stem cell injection of the doctor using ultrasound. You can see the quality of the muscle somewhat, but it's not done. But that's a greater driver of, say, insulin resistance. than body fat percentage. It's the fat that's in the muscle and we don't image it. So you'd be looking at a whole body MRI

rather than a Dexa? Yes, yes. I mean, you're going to sit still for an hour. There's not that many places. There's got to be other ways. There's a new one. You see the water one? You sit in a basically in a hot tub.

That mind who's fascinating. The AI-based companies are developing it, right? Yeah, I forget what it's called. It's a mechow. I don't know. I don't know quantifiably how well it died. How works? You literally step into water

and it uses frequency-based mechanism. to do some type of a digital signal that's similar to a full-body MRI. But that's the future. I'm telling you that that's the future of medicine. You still need a dexia. You still need to look at bone density. But looking at the quality of this tissue, I think, is you're going to be able to correlate it with insulin resistance and disease outcomes.

Surprising to me that clearly scans, for the people that C-L-E-R-L-Y, that they're not more widely used when heart disease is like the number one kill. They are more expensive. They subject you depending on the speed of the machine to a somewhat significant amount of radiation. Once a go, it's fine. And there's still holes in the process. Like, if you got a CTN geography in 2024,

the software algorithm has changed like six times since then. So if you're running the same data through a 2026 software that's been updated, like the data set is not necessarily going to be similar. And most of the time, they're not running it back through. Yeah, you have to. request your raw data and run it back through an old data set. So there's issues, but in general, even if it falls into like the concierge-based medicine category, I think more people should be considering a scan like that. I don't know. How much is it? Are you got any idea how much out of pocket

clearly would be? Grand, maybe? Yeah, I think it's around that. I mean, that's not cheap, but fuck, you don't need to get it done that much, get it done 40 years old as a guy. Get a baseline. It's controversial. A lot of people will correlate. I've seen up to 97% accuracy claims a carotid intimate media thickness score with a CCTV, meaning using actual ultrasound to look at carotid plaque deposition, and based on data sets, correlate that to what you'd get from a CT angiography. And that's like a five-minute scan on both sides of your neck. It's just, it's difficult to put a lot of, it is difficult to estimate how powerful that that prediction is. But there are a lot of companies, unfortunately, in the CIMT space who claim that

is really close to CTNG geography. But full body MRI, which is very controversial, we recommend them. We recommend them. Full body MRI. These are early detection screening tools. You'll hear physicians say, why would you screen for something? What are you going to do about it? Well, that's like saying, I don't want to look under the covers. I'm just going to, you know, hide and put my head in the sand. If, you know, there's an issue, you want to find it early. can freak you out though like there are there are certain things like i have full arthritis like literally like from my cervical then have someone else read it for you and i'm and i'm and i have someone else read it for but but but like there's a lot of stuff that you you can see and it doesn't necessarily mean that you

that is true no or you know that i need to go get my spine operated on no like in my case i do i do i do stew mcgill's big three i hang for the fucking boss shout out stea mcgill dude do a lot of playing training, take care of my spine. I always have a giant water bottle behind me on an airplane, which helps a ton. And so I go relatively pain-free, but full-body MRI shows like, I'm super effed up, like my entire spine. So it can be scary for a lot of people. I think a lot of it, too, comes down to good clinicians, having good conversations. Yeah, same thing with the cancer screening. Like, we can screen for 200 types of cancer at stage zero. Yeah. We can tell you seven years in advance before you. We use those, all that you use the grail test. Yes. And then it's important to have the

nuanced conversation and have the time. So traditional medicine will go, well, you don't need that. Like, we will, you know. That is a mistake. But it's like, yeah. And we've seen, so I helped implement this with soldiers with special operators because they're exposed to so much stuff. They have threefold the risk. Yes. Burn pit, you name it. What's that from being exposed to random particulates? Yes. Also shooting guns. Yeah, all that gunpowder is getting absorbed. People don't think about it. So we started screening these guys. and all that through your skin. And we've saved guys' lives because we were early enough in detection.

And then even not to go back to microplastics, but like this is a crazy one I didn't realize this until we had this meeting with Ken Paxton here. And there's a woman advocate who's banging on the desk about little girls now start putting lip gloss on between ages six and eight. The average American girls putting lip gloss on between six and eight is flavored lip gloss. Mom's and dads are buying it. Yeah. But it is loaded with microplastics. And so they're absorbing plastics. And the reason your lips are pink is you have more blood vessels in your lips.

And so it's a higher absorption rate. And so little girls are absorbing crazy levels of microplastics through lip cloths. Burn here first. Avoid lipcloths and don't eat after loading your meg. Oh, yeah, aye, yeah. Wow. So surely someone's going to come along and make a kid-friendly microplastic free. Hey, what they're arguing today is at minimum-dollar business.

minimal, they need to change the labeling of what they call all natural and mandate that you disclose a risk profile. And so the Texas is looking at potentially forcing companies. But what we've learned with food is if you can get two or three big states to do it, it's so painful on the big corporations that they'll just change the label everywhere. Because they don't have to split all of the different. Do you think in future we might see kind of the same as in the UK, I don't know whether it's the same over here, smoking packets have got almost 90s. 90% of it is taken up with some horrible artery. It's a warning label. Can you see the same thing happening

maybe around other microplastics or other contributing elements to food? You mean like a photo of just like teeny tiny testicles on a lip gloss bottle? It does contribute to a sperm. Exactly. But that's one of the reasons why they think

that infertility is increasing. Yeah, what was it 97% or 99% a minute have microplastics in our testicles? Oh, did you? you see where most of that came from though, that it was in the fucking gloves? Oh, if I get to teach all three of you?

You mean the gloves being used in the study? Yes. So the big microplastics, the big micro, Jared pull it up. We've got it's hilarious. That's crazy. The big fucking microplastics study, just search microplastics. It's because they were wearing the gloves. They were wearing fucking nitrile gloves.

And how is it that these gloves bend? Why do they bend? Because tiny little bits of plastic are breaking off. So literally what happened was, we're sorry, the plastic gloves we were wearing, got on the plastic detector of the microplastic study we were doing and contaminated the results. So the... Yeah, it's wild. There it is. Glabs may be skewed.

This is March 29th, University of Michigan scientists may be unknowingly inflating microplastics pollution estimates and the surprising source could be their own lab gloves. University of Michigan study found common nitrille and latex gloves released tiny particles called sterates, which closely resemble microplastics and can contaminate samples during testing. In some cases, it's led to wildly exaggerated results, forcing researchers to track down the unexpected culprit. Don't fucking test me, dude. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. There's a lot of confusion and misperceptions in the microplastic industry. Like the sweat thing is one.

The chewing gum is full of microplastics issue. The size of the microplastics and chewing gum actually is too large to be absorbed in the gut in most cases in significant amounts. So chewing gum is less of an issue. and then the um there's another one what do you think of clothing because everyone there's a whole like thing against lulu lemon and stuff now too well well there there was another big study a few weeks ago that that actually compared like how much microplastic exposure do you actually decrease with certain lifestyle based modifications like your clothing the type of packaging that you store your food in your personal care products which involves shampoo and condition whatever which is stored in

plastic bottles, the number one contributor, bar none, was oral exposure via plastics in your food. So what you store your food in or the food that you buy in plastic is the number one contributor. So if you can do anything, like it's not swapping out your garbage bay. Like there's a lot of stuff that you can do. When you go to the grocery, almost everything is in, everything is and that's the problem. We live in a society that right now is pretty much engineered for you to get your food in plastic even if it's healthy. Even if they be caring. Because you talked about my Fit Foods, I used to use them 10 years ago.

And I would, I was so dumb. I would heat up the in the plastic. So listen. That's so funny. Like 10 years ago, I didn't know. I'd heat up my little pre-prep meal in the plastic in a microwave. Free microposting. Wait, I'm so glad you brought that up.

Now I put it on a plate. So I pulled out, I asked them to pull me the data from, was their BPAs in the containers or the cover? And there wasn't. They used some very expensive company. to not have microlosures. So when working at the moment, I love their stuff.

Inside every can, there's a plastic line. I know. That's how you don't get stuff contaminated with the metal. However, you can use a biodegradable natural plant compound liner. So we're looking at how much it's going to cost

for us to line this with something else. I know, I know they're fucking awesome. However, leave it with me. Until you find out 10 years from now it's some edamomade based phytoestrogen. It's killing you. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Slowly taking over your brain.

Castrating everyone with new tonic, a bunch of smart people who can't have kids. God damn it. Yeah, I think this sort of current future that we've got moving toward with all of the different diagnostics, all of the different interventions, what do you think, if you were to make some of your predictions

for where you think the attention is going to be in future, I think air quality is going to be huge. That's just about coming online. I think light pollution, internally flicker, LED, stuff like that. Is there anything else? Social media. Anabolic. It's bigger and bigger.

Anabolic. Okay. What do you mean social media? The use of social media. We have awareness, but I don't think we yet really understand how detrimental it is to children and development. Like being on technology and the level of technology that kids are exposed to is going to have some sort of major impact that we'll look back and go, wow, was that like the tobacco of our times?

It's a smoking of teenagers in 2026. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No one thought the idea that anabolic was like the anabolic agents that they used in HIV and wasting that were used like nandrolone. Yeah. Things beyond testosterone, they're used in HIV and wasting. FDA approved. Yeah.

Antabolic agents. I think it's going to be. You mean that anabolic agents will become an increasingly popular treatment strategy for sarcopenia or? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, there's amazing study on nandrolone and bone mental density. That's right. Yeah. You guys earlier were talking about free testosterone.

One of the, like, little tricks that I think I learned from Larry Overson. There are carolaginous receptors for growth hormone, and it might be able to be used for actual cartilage repair as well. And then there's things like men who have an issue with free versus total, right? So you've got their total testosterone at an optimal level, but their free is suffering. A lot of times that's sex binding goblin hormone. Yeah. And so then if you add in a microdose of antifference of antifference of ant, Anabar, it will literally like a Pac-Man gobble up that sex-binding gobbling.

That's interesting. Micro-dosing anvah. Let's go. Although. They're free. Yeah. Although I think the elephant in the room with SHBG, though, is that sex hormone binding globulin is also something that increases in a state in which you, in which the body senses

something like famine, starvation, stress, or any type of scenario in which it, you, you, in which it would be unwise to bring more humans into the world. Right. And so, so people who are on like a strict ketogenic diet have high SHBG. People who are under a lot of cortisol load, high stress, they have high SHBG. So in many cases, like it can be something as simple. Just like, do like eat more carbs with dinner, sleep a little more, lower stress. Yeah, it goes up and work.

What do you think about Nandrolone in older male populations as like obviously you still keep them on a test sip or an anthate? but then micro dose or low dose manually. I think that that's going to be the way of the future and we have to address it. And if we, if we de, and so we have a mutual friend, Dr. Larry Lipschultz, the godfather of male fertility. Yeah, he's the, I've known him for, I don't know, 30 or 20-something years.

He was the guy who developed the entire field. So like wings and an arrow? He's been, he's been using peptides for literally like 20 years. He used to write for GQ magazine. He's got, but he's a heavily, heavily accredited academic. at Baylor College of Medicine in Houston, Texas. He's literally wrote the book on urology, and he's just such a subject matter expert.

He's the one who originally taught me and helped me. I mean, I was literally 25% body fat, doing CrossFit every day, trying to eat right, couldn't figure things out, felt like I was just run ragged, and he optimized me to where all of a sudden I went from 25% to 7% without testosterone. He literally used HCG and Clomophene

and was one of the first... Newtonandro? Yeah, no, no. He's in his age, but that's the future. We have to address it. Whatever happened to GHRP2 and GHR6 and mod GRF? Because I was fucking about with that 15 years ago. And that, I'm surprised when we're talking about,

oh, we're going to have a human growth hormone, rather than going exogenous, trying to create some endogenous feedback. Right, you mean like growth hormones, secretagogues? Yes, yeah. I think better options came out, and there was such a hunger surge, too.

There was a lot of, I don't say, like that. fucking Grelland release was app. Did you ever use it? Oh yeah, I know. And I would swear. Did you ever try this? No. No.

G8. It wasn't M-K-677. This is an early growth hormone releasing hexapeptide and bi-peptide. You know who prescribed me it was Larry Lipscholz and this was again like 15 years ago. So we had to do these. I think the other peptides you were talking about like Tessa Morel and Nipaparra and CJC 1295. They've all replaced it. A lot of those are what people are using now.

Yeah. Right. But are they mimicking the same sort of effect. Yeah, same pathway. but without all of the, like, yeah, with a lower side effect profile and the same evidence. We used to shoot it when I was in university. The only way that you could use it was if you hit yourself with it as you were cooking. Because by the time that you would finish the meal, you were like beyond ravenous

because it's just dumping grellin into it, like just over and over and over. I mean, it was overwhelming. It was fucking gross. It was great if you're trying to put on weight. Right. So what happens is it still used? No, it's transitioned out. Nobody really uses it.

Everything moved to CJC and all these other secreting dogs. There we go. Yeah. Down to your daughter. I think, I think, by the way, you mentioned light pollution. Yes. And you said air pollution, right? Yes.

Yeah, I think air quality and light quality are going to be. I think water and electricity are three and four. I think what has already been done? Okay, so water's already been done. Electricity would mean non-native EMF such as Wi-Fi routers, 5G square waveform signals at a. a higher intensity and things that may cause either actual thermal heating if very close to the body, such as like cell phone radio frequency or low level up regulation of channels in cells related to

calcium influx. Are you that aggressive? My house is pretty aggressive. Like everything is hardwired with metal shielded cables, Ethernet, there is no Wi-Fi, every floor is grounded. I mean, at my house, we pulled out all the stops in terms of circadian-friendly, lighting to address light pollution. You don't understand.

Ben, kept an air filter or scrubber. Ben showed me the guy that came in to help. Who'd the buy your home dude? What was his name? Brian Hoyer. Right. So this guy comes in looking like a dude out of fucking ghostbusters.

He's got like, like more meters than you've ever seen in your life that measure. He was like Dr. Octopus. Magnetic and electrical. He's got all of this bullshit attached to his arms and he's going around like, you know, spraying for poltergeists and stuff. He's like, I can see in the corner, there's some 5G in the corner.

We've got to get rid of the 5G. There was a murder here 20 years ago. So do you feel a difference? So, oh, you absolutely feel a difference. And a lot of this stuff, of course, has the big fat, woo bat signal on it because it is an inconvenient truth that there may be an effect on everything from the neurochemical balance in cells based on low-level exposure to radiation or radio frequencies or EMF to the,

the effect that it might have on something like negative ion load in the body, which is why I'm a huge fan of the grounded floors, earthing, grounding, going outside barefoot. But I don't think that there is a biological free cost to having a radio frequency device in your pocket, as some bone scan data suggests might be an issue and sperm data, or just sitting next to a Wi-Fi. Somebody broke down, isn't there in the phone itself, in the iPhone itself? Somebody had covered this, that it literally tells you you're supposed to keep it a certain distance. You are. Yeah, from your self. That sounds like a great, a great fucking disclaimer. I think the best metric, though, is if you eliminate that stuff, and of course the single most important place to do it is your bedroom where your nervous system has a chance to arguably repair and recover for like eight hours for a 24-hour cycle. But as many places in the home as you can down-regulate exposure to that stuff, I think it's a good idea. It's right into the category with light water and air. Are you worried about eight-sleep then? I do not use an 8-sleep for those reasons.

I'm not going to piss them off because I know they're, are they a sponsor? Yeah. Okay. I mean, you can say whatever you want. I use a different one that still cools my bed, but that tests lower with an EMF meter. Right. But okay. So I think.

EMF meter? Yeah. Yeah. At least from what I know. Although I prefer for my Ghostbuster. Talking to a bunch of friends, they Faraday cage the cooling tower of their 8th sleep. You can do that. And that's where most of the, if you do the actual test,

there's much less on the pad than on the controlling device itself. So yeah. So they just Faraday-H-that off. You could totally tinful out. Can you give a layman's explanation? Because a lot of people, ionizing, non-ionizing radiation, I see that you're always with wide headphones, stuff like that. What's the 30,000-foot view of the most defensible science

behind EMF's exposure to electrical frequencies and stuff like that? Plus three Bluetooth signals, which defines most of what we're using on our heads and our ears, et cetera, very little data showing that there's any deleterious effect at all. So you're talking about... That is more like a, I'm not sure, so I'm going to play a safe type of strategy for me to be using wired headphones. Cool. It's your Pascal's wager. Right, exactly.

It's a Pascal. It's a technological pascal wager. For Wi-Fi, for 5G, for 4G, the biggest response to it from an electric... chemical balance in the cell standpoint is proximity to the source, right? So the farther you can be from a Wi-Fi router, for example, in your home or your office, the better. Like your neighbor's Wi-Fi signals, if you've got your home totally tricked out and all your Faraday paint and cages or whatever, is not that big of an issue because they're so far away. But if you're sleeping with your head, whatever, one to two feet on the other side of the wall from the Wi-Fi router, that's where there's a

bigger issue. There are other things people worry about, electric cars. Teslas are actually designed to be pretty low EMF. There is a signal that exceeds the safety limit if you are in the backseat right next to the battery. So if you like have a kid in the backseat of a Tesla, most of the rest of it is safe. And I have a video online where we went through and tested everything in the Tesla. But if you were going to shield anything, it'd be the actual backseat.

And then the other major sources in a home would be like appliances, you know, dryer, washer, microwave only while it's running. Like if you were right next to it when it's running. So basically keeping those appliances as far away as possible from the bedroom or anywhere where you're at for an extended period of time. Basically, don't put your laptop on the washer, which I know you do and work from that during the day. Okay. Major appliances. and then the phone would just basically also be a proximate to the body and be the bar signal, the lower the bar signal, the higher radio frequency output in order to be searching for a signal.

So when the plane is about to land and 100 people on the plane all turn their cell phones on when you're maybe still like, I don't know, like let's say at 2,000 feet and you've still got one bar, that's a pretty hazardous place to be because you all of a sudden have like 100 devices pushing out a ton of radio frequency because they're all searching for a signal at the same time. So that's where you pull on your tinfoil hat is right when the plane's about to land.

That's crazy. Or your EMF blocking suit. My girlfriend literally got me the tinfoil hat. I have an actual jacket. I wear one for international flights. I wear a full seat. She got me the cap and she's like, when I used to travel with my sons,

I have EMF blocking friends for long haul flights. Yeah. Just for the radiation from long haul flights. It's interesting. I actually got this is for you to wear today. Hey, I love it. Make autism great again. Hey.

This is what I'm going to put on every time I land. Does it block you mess? I hope so. Dude, I'm fucking blown away by the Tesla thing by sitting in the back seat. I'm going to guess. Lots of the batteries. But for every problem there's going to be a solution. So someone is now going to make a child seat, presumably, which has.

Yeah. So I have called four body shops and so far found none. And the Tesla dealership, for warranty reasons, won't do it, who will actually install the shielding material in the backseat? So I have just like a giant piece of fabric from Brian at shielded healing that's just like sitting in the back of the Tesla right now. But I haven't actually been able to find anyone who's going to pull the seat out and install it properly, like between the backseat and the battery. So there's a great business model out there for someone out there somewhere. to do like low EMF shilding for the backseat of a Tesla. Yeah, have you tested it with a blanket? Does it make a meaningful difference?

Oh, yeah. When you put the shielding material, the meter drops down, it's just, it's ugly to just have a giant piece of childing material just like propped in the backseat. So I need to get it installed or like underneath the upholstery. What I found fascinating, I was so funny. I was watching a documentary. Congratulations on the new documentary, by the way. Well, thanks.

I was watching this last night and I was looking at you. By the way, he was disappointed that they did. didn't actually show the penis injection scene. I would only serve for the penis. Reliably, I only arrive at events. Me and Zach Effron at the back of the cinema just like, I'm waiting for the penis. Like, show me the fucking penis. One of the things that I noticed was the most Ben Greenfield thing in the world is to design

the perfect house to ensure there's no EMFs, everything's local area networked and copper wiring and all the rest of it. Living room, fucking tons of boxes of new shit that you just had sent to his house. tons and tons of cardboard boxes and I was like, that's a man who gets lots of packages. I have a soft spot in my heart for a man that receives a lot of packages. It's the worst when you try.

I literally have an assistant who sits at home and opens packages and sends me photos to an Asana project when I'm traveling so that everything can be unboxed and put away when I get home because one of my greatest sources of stress when I travel is getting home to all of the boxes. Worst. So I've outsourced that. I enjoyed seeing the boxes.

A lot of boxes. Lots of cool, free things. On the air quality thing, I think that is CO2 is something that I think people are going to pay a lot of attention to, but that'll be further down the line. Before that, it's going to be humidity and mold. Like, just fucking huge. Wouldn't it be amazing if we had small travel mold detectors that you could put on your backpack? Air quality detectors would be amazing. Or like a canary that you could train.

For mold? Yeah, for mold. It's just drop. Yeah. Here. One of the problems that you have, and I only found this out from speaking to Mike from Jasper, is that you can't have an air purifier, or he calls it a scrubber, an air scrubber. But different.

I know your dad was huge into this stuff, right? My dad was water filtration. You can't have the sensor be in the scrubber because the turnover of air is too high. So you always have to have two separate, because it's basically pulling air through. through the sensor itself. So you can't have that. You need to have a sensor that's over one side that's looking at CO2, that's looking at mold particles, and then you need to have this.

But that means that you now have two units, one thing that's detecting, one thing that's working. You need the detector and the scrubber. And if you could have the perfect setup at home and you weren't renting it, you could just put in your own heaphyliteration system, you would have a filter. You would have a scrubber, right? So the filter, you see like the Merv rating, which is just like the particular rating. Like that's the actual like filter that's catching stuff that you pull out and change, you know, every six months or whatever in your home. Then you have the scrubber, which keeps the actual mold from building up in the ducks themselves.

And a lot of times that's using like UV or ozone or something like that. And then a recirculator that's pulling in fresh air from the outdoors. So you're not just filtering stale air. And also so you get into the ideal scenario. Yeah, you're scrubbing, you're recirculating and you're filtering all three. Like that's the best set of. So is that three, so it's three different units. It's basically three different technologies being used for something like central heaphylure.

What should happen, and I think this is why the guys from Jasper, Mike's going to end up doing it, is all of this can be fixed if you just put it into AC. Like if you just go after the AC unit, you don't need to do any of the additional standalone unit thing. The reason that Jasper exists at the moment is that there isn't enough cleaning going on through the AC. And if you're in an apartment block or if you've got a house trying to retrofit that, you're. you're going to have to bodge it together, like some Ben Greenfield, Tesla car. Like, it's too much to do. So you're having to scrub inside of a room because the air that's coming in from the AC, even with a dehumidifier at the best that you can get at the moment, is tough.

I mean, what did you do for your AC? Did you have to bodge it together or did you find something that was ready made? We went with a local company called Laser and they do scrubber. They do filter and they do recirculation. Are they able to do it at the particular level that's needed to get rid of mold though? Yeah. Yeah. Like they're using a Merv filter.

that will basically catch anything that's like PM2.5, which is, I think it's PM2.4 to PM10 are the main sizes that you get concerned about. But I still, because of wildfire season and also in the kitchen, where the rating for the height of the hood over the stove for the actual filtration system above the stove when you're cooking is too high to actually catch everything that gets released when you're cooking. So even if you have a filter in the kitchen, you're getting a massive amount of PM 2.5 every time you cook.

So I have a standalone hepa air filter in the kitchen. And then a bunch in other rooms that I pull out when it's like wildfire season or there's a bunch of smoke. There are eight Jasper filters back in our Airbnb right now here in Austin running in every room. So we have six of our house. To me, it's worth it to filter than to as much as I travel, get exposed in an Airbnb or hotel room and be dealing with mold for the next two years. It's way better as just nippins.

But see, what you said is important is when you're exposed, you're exposed over a period of time. It takes a long time to get rid of it. Yeah. So you mine as well. Yeah. And it's expensive. You work a lot with mold. Obviously, it's been a huge part of my life over the last couple of years.

How brief of an exposure do you need in order to cause an effect? Like, is one night six months of detox? Is there any equation that's been coming from for this? I think, well, part of it. So yes, I do and treat mold and environmental toxins in our medical practice. And I will tell you, I think it comes down in part to genetics. Some people are affected. Some people are not.

Obviously, there's no, it's not like, okay, so you have low testosterone for six months. Here's going to be your subsequent effects. But an exposure of even a week can. A week's better, though. You at least just delayed Chris's fears about his one-night stand with the moldy woman. So it would have been a week. Have you gotten sick with mold? You must have it.

I've gotten pretty lucky. I haven't. Have you done your genomic testing to work out whether you've got the different polymorphisms that your detox pathways for lime and for mold and stuff? I have a little bit of impaired glutathione detoxification pathways. I've never had significant mold exposure. Interesting. Knock on wood.

I mean, I lived in, me and another guy lived in the same house. Me and Zach, best friend. And one of us, him, fine, me. Same fucking house, dude. And he was ripping vapes, going to bed at three in the morning, playing gigs. Here's me, like, getting up, sunlight in the eyes, fucking grounding, listening to Ben and Cubman and you. And it wrecked me.

So it really is, if you just have rolled the genetic dice, and then you kind of hit the equivalent of the inverse jackpot living in an environment, like, it's a real... And you have a roommate with the freaking, like, Viking Nephilim genes. It's just completely untouched by it. But yeah, I think the mold thing is going to be. be already is sort of picking up speed. But Ariana Thacker from the Moldco, she rules, Shoemaker Protocol, all of that stuff I think is going to be massive, like teaching people about binders and sauna and exposure and TGF beta. Moldco is kind of like systematized everything

to where they have like the testing, the solutions, everything on one website, right? It's a one-stop shop, which is really cool. Yeah. Really cool slash possibly the Fox Guarding the henhouse, but I still think it's a good idea. How so? Well, if they're testing and then supplying the solutions based on the test results. Oh, you were incentivized to get the test. Potential, but I've gone through the website and seen what they're doing, and I think that they're doing a good service. I mean, you need to be a real scumbag to be falsifying people's tests so you can then get it. I would hope not. The therapeutics. No. So yeah, what's cool is all of the problems that we think are sort of in the future, there's already solutions or proto solutions that

already exist. So for people that have got systemic issues, hormones, health, optimizing, like you guys, and similar to you guys exist, for the light problems, we've got people thinking about LEDs, for mold, we've got the mold co, for blood testing and mass, we've got function for, you know, air quality, we've got jet, you know, there's already aqua-true for reverse osmosis, like, there's already the beginnings of solutions. It's just a case of kind of telling people about it. That makes me feel more confident because I guess like 15 years ago, all of these problems still existed, but there wasn't even the nascent version of some company that could maybe fix it. Best resource I ever found. And I really wanted to interview the author on my podcast.

And hopefully she doesn't hear this horrible interview because she was a little boring and didn't do a great job explaining. But the book was fantastic. It was called prescription for a healthy home. And it's like everything. It's carpets, appliance. It's roofing. It's painting. like ever like I gave it to the people building my home like I bought it for the architect and the building team because I wanted them to read it. It was so thorough as far as everything that it went into for building materials from the ground up or outfitting like an existing condo or apartment or somewhere that you're not building from scratch. Excellent guide. And it's like I think it was published two years ago maybe. It's a pretty relevant.

Unreal. The final thing that I love, which I think will pick up speed, will be. proper genetic testing. So IntelX DNA is who you guys use that Lisa's put me through. A little bit expensive. You need a healthcare practitioner, provider, whatever, to get in between you. I know that function are about to release their own version at some point later this year, which you'll democratize that.

I'm sure you guys have all got your own versions of this too. But it's the only test you only ever need to do once. That's true, yeah. Until Chris Bergen editing really takes off. Well, you got the fall of standing thing when we were in Roeotan together. Yeah. How did that work? I gained muscle at a more rapid rate than I would have expected without changing protein calorie intake or my weight training protocol around 10 pounds in three months.

It's not permanent. You would need to repeat it, I think, every one to one and a half years. And unfortunately, at the time, I was under the impression it was reversible in case shit hit the fan and something went wrong. It's not actually reversible. I thought it was reversible. I thought you just took a tablet. Yeah. No, that's the issue, is that it is not.

And the company is now readily admitting that it's not, and doctors were supposed to reach out to their patients and tell them that, oops, it's not. So that's the only issue now is it's just like, well, if you're going to get your genes edited, it'd be nice to know that if something goes wrong, you could reverse it. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, I mean, we did go to a small island off the coast of Honduras, which is specifically a network state that doesn't have any oversight of basically any nation so that you could get this experimental gene therapy and now you're like, wow, they didn't tell you're not a school print. The understanding that I was taught from that technology is it's not editing a gene,

it's turning on a pre-existing gene. You are correct. It's not a CRISPR gene editing. And then it'll turn back off. It's basically like up-regulating or down-regulating. gene. So, yeah, like, joking aside, the, the only reason that you'd have to do a genetic test twice in a lifetime is if you are actually using CRISPR gene editing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Guys, you all rule. I appreciate you. Why should people go to check out everything? We've told them so many interesting things.

My company's Wayes2.com, the number two. Yeah. Yeah. Go to my website, Dr. Gabriel Lyon. All of the channels, the podcast. These two are getting PhDs to come on. Let's do it. Let's go. And, yeah, strong medical with Lifespan MD if you want to be my patient. I don't do rectal exams. Sweet. There's not a lot of Ben Greenfields out there. Such ghoule.

It's good. I appreciate you all. You all rule. Thank you for keeping everyone alive. Goodbye, my beauty. Yes. That fucking. That's fun.