Modern Wisdom - Couples Therapist: “The One Rule Every Relationship Must Live By” - Stan Tatkin -#1146

Episode Date: September 5, 2026

Dr Stan Tatkin is a psychologist, couples therapist, researcher and author. How can couples effectively navigate and repair emotional wounds? While many believe it’s best to sleep on a conflict, could repairing the rupture quickly actually be healthier? What other habits help a relationship not only survive conflict, but flourish? Expect to learn why romantic attachment relationships are neurochemically the hardest ones to navigate, if love is enough to maintain a relationship, what the most important agreements couples should make are, why it’s important to have the ability to repair disagreements quickly, why resentment tends to accumulate in relationships, if we learn to truly love ourselves even if no one else ever truly has and much more… Sponsors: See discounts for all the products I use and recommend: ⁠https://chriswillx.com/deals⁠ Sign up for a free trial from Shopify at https://shopify.com/modernwisdom Get up to 20% off Timeline’s leading longevity and cellular health supplement at https://timeline.com/modernwisdom Get up to $50 off the RP Hypertrophy App at https://rpstrength.com/modernwisdom Get 15% off your first order of my favourite Non-Alcoholic Brew at https://athleticbrewing.com/modernwisdom Get ChatGPT to explore ideas, solve problems, and learn faster at ⁠https://chatgpt.com Extra Stuff: See me live in the UK & Ireland this October: ⁠https://chriswilliamson.live/⁠ Get my free reading list of 100 books to read before you die: ⁠https://chriswillx.com/books⁠ Try my productivity energy drink Neutonic: ⁠https://neutonic.com/modernwisdom⁠ Episodes You Might Enjoy: #577 - David Goggins - This Is How To Master Your Life: ⁠lnkfi.re/SN-Goggins⁠ #712 - Dr Jordan Peterson - How To Destroy Your Negative Beliefs: ⁠lnkfi.re/SN-Peterson⁠ #700 - Dr Andrew Huberman - The Secret Tools To Hack Your Brain: ⁠lnkfi.re/SN-Huberman⁠ - Get In Touch: Instagram: ⁠https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx⁠ Twitter: ⁠https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx⁠ YouTube: ⁠https://www.youtube.com/modernwisdompodcast⁠ Email: ⁠https://chriswillx.com/contact⁠ - Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello friends. I'm bringing a brand new live show across the UK and Ireland this October. It's story, psychology, audience Q&As and whatever happens when thousands of overthinkers voluntarily leave the house and end up in the same room together. I'd love to see you there. The last two are completely sold out. So make sure that you snag tickets now using the link in the description or heading to Chris Williamson.com. Live. Dublin's already sold out. Loads of venues are limited. Tickets are very limited. So get yours now. Chris Williamson.com. Live. You're great. Your work is fantastic. You rule. Thank you. If I was to try and summarize your worldview on relationships, allow me to step into your skin and wear it for a second.

I would summarize it as love by design, not desire. Is that a fair, like it's thought not felt as relationships, that design versus desire thing? How far away am I? I think I prefer earned love. earned love on a daily basis by knowing how to hack the brain, the neuroendocrine system, which we can talk about, by designing the relationship to protect feelings, to enhance feelings, to allow two different people under stress to maintain a collaborative and cooperative

attitude. That is a hard get because that takes a certain amount of planning, predicting and planning and preparing what could go wrong between human beings. Why are romantic attachment relationships neurochemically so hard to navigate? Well, they're hard because in the attachment world, if you understand or buy the idea of a primary attachment relationship. A primary attachment relationship is one that tends to be dietic with human primates, we pair bond in herds. And the romantic adult primary attachment relationship is most like the earliest one, which is predicated on survival.

So the attachment system is actually an existential... you know, glue that holds us together. It's the I can't quit you. Biology, we confuse it for love. And because it goes back to the earliest, you know, survival relationship, that's why breaking up also is hard to do. That's why it has a very long memory, because it reminds us of that earliest dependency relationship, whereas other relationships tend to not do that. So we're reliving our childhoods in a way. We're reliving our relationships, how we felt with all of these important originals that we were around in this relationship that we call a romantic adult relationship, but it is 12 in before. That is generally how I will think of it, is that we have the parents

in our heads that we had around 12 and before that time, even if our parents, parents, and they do, changed a great deal for the better or for the worst. We still draw upon that earliest, because that's the root of our experience through thousands upon thousands of interactions starting from infancy, post-Israel. So powerful. Is love enough to maintain a relationship? Absolutely not. No feeling is, because feelings come and go.

And besides, who knows what your definition of love is? It may be very different than mine. And even if I were to describe my definition of love, in action, my expectations of love may be quite different than what I say. So there you already have a problem. But if you're basing your life on emotion, which is like a roller coaster, than your life is like a roller coaster. So I think the smartest and the wisest

and the way that it's always worked in terms of long-term relationships between individuals of equal power, adults, is that you have to have first a shared purpose, a reason for being in this relationship, not based on feelings. And a vision of where are we headed, what's the end point?

Are we ride or die? is it all the way till, you know, I'm wiping your butt, you're wiping my butt in old age. You know, where are we headed and why? What's the point of us? Who or what do we serve? Only purpose that's based on a selfish reason will carry the day because we're too unreliable as a species. Our species is notably, historically, moody and fickle and. impulsive and

unpredictable, sometimes opportunistic, warlike, xenophobic, easily influenced by groups and other people. So we're not great over the long run in unions.

Therefore, we have to account for going through time together, and that would be going through some changes. So we need an invention, we need a design from the ground up, which is a made-up thing, right? All relationships are made up. That would sustain us in the long run and

would account for all of that will-room necessary as we change through time, right? Otherwise, we're going to, you know, we're not going to make it somehow. That's issue one. Issue two is we have to understand the forces that push us around, namely our survival instinct, because it's always on. And because this relationship is unlike any other on the planet because of its memory, most like that earliest one, based on survival, it has a long memory, and we tend to be proxies for everybody who came before. We tend to, it's a very projective system. The chances of us accruing threat memory by getting things wrong based on memory and appraisal is 100%. And so if we're not really good at knowing and understanding how to minimize threat and stay collaborative under the most stress and pressure, we're going to accrue threat memory, which is a biological matter and eventually takes people down.

So you're saying we need to respect the biology by in advance having structures in place and principles that. that keep guardrails in so that we're not relying on the ebbs and flows of how we feel? Like any other, any other union of any kind that's professional of any kind, we plan on our devils, not our angels, right? Coubles plan on their angels. That's a big mistake. What does that mean? Devils we are if the opportunity arises, if we're under enough load bearing,

if we're in enough pain or enough pressure, enough stress. again, emotions. If I'm going to behave according to how I feel, which is pretty much everybody on the planet most, then it stands to reason that we're going to have a hard time

getting along, right? And so this just has to do with predicting what could go wrong and planning for it ahead of time instead of just falling into it, which is what couples always do, right? Couples don't predict, plan, and prepare.

for what could go wrong based on what has gone wrong. Nobody else does that. Medicine, we do post-mortems, right? Let's not kill the patient again. But couples don't do that. They just repeat, repeat. We predict what could go wrong in the police force and military, in medicine, in science, and business. Couples don't do that. They just walk into the same situations live without being prepared. We would never get involved with a group of people if we didn't know what the culture was and how are we going to be protected from each other

because we're animals. Couples don't have any governance, any way of protecting each other from each other because they don't set it up. So couples are the only system, only voluntary system, a free, fair, you know, volunteer system of individuals coming together of equal power and authority,

at least on the face of it, it should be on based on terms and conditions that do not have any of this ever. And that is why they're predicted not to last very long. Or if they do, one or both people are not going to be happy. We're not going to feel safe and secure. Because there's no social contract system. of making agreements based on purpose, based on what is good. So say you both, we both, right?

What is best, so say we both. Or what, you know, is right. Those are the three. And without that, it's going to be the wild ones. Does that mean that discussing non-negotiables and practical things in advance and as early as possible is actually the romantic thing to do? It's not all you. You don't put that into the right. Hey, honey, let's go. go out to dinner and have a nice romantic dinner and everything. And let's talk about if we have any deal breakers. You could, I guess. It's not, you know, it's dual purpose. But deal breaker is, should be known ahead of time. I want a baby. I have to have a baby. You hate kids. And let's get married. So that is what people do. And that's like not smart because that can't work. I want

monogamy and you want polyamory. Well, neither of us are wrong. We have a right to want what we want and get what we want, but we can't do business together because that's going to cause a lot of trouble. So those are deal breakers, big-ticket items that couldn't work because we're pointing in two different directions. Having a specific shared purpose and vision is still important outside of deal-breakers, I have to imagine. So if you look, if you look at the human condition and how people have sustained in groups. Groups don't stay together very long, or they don't get along with each other very well if they don't have a shared purpose for being together. You and I are going to start a ban. That's our purpose. We want to start a ban. We want to,

what is our goal, our vision? We want to get a record deal, at least initial. So if we didn't have that we wouldn't have reason to hang together very much and we would probably not get along because we tend to pick at each other if we don't have a shared purpose right that's if we're you know spending a lot of time together and a shared reason for doing this otherwise we tend to otherwise we tend to other's differences we don't we don't look naturally to where we agree and where we are the same people who are consensus makers have to do that but at the average Joe, because of energy conservation, meaning, you know, we're meant to do the least amount necessary biologically, all living things, we're lazy, and we won't do things that we should do

because we don't think we have to. So this whole idea of, you know, we're in it to win it, you know, we're a survival team, we want to win, we want to make money, we want to succeed, want to survive. All of these things are essential for keeping people on the path together and not paying attention so much to their differences. Otherwise, we fight. And when it happens in a country, such as ours, that's when we see civil war or tribalization or a massive amount of splintering, right? Because there's no more centralized sense of purpose that holds us together. That's believable and a vision, an American dream, right? And so if things break down. So if that is true, with all systems large and small, it goes to follow that a couple would be no different.

If they have no shared reason for being at any given time, they're going to fight or they'll drift because that's what holds us together. Yeah. What's the importance of agreements? That's all we've got to keep us from being harmful to each other. All we have is our PACs, our agreements, our social contracts. Civilizations predicated on social contracts. The first laws of religion, even though it was a social contract with God, an Old Testament God, that would rain in your bedroom 40 days, 40 nights if you disobeyed. That was a powerful thing to get people to start to behave.

It was the first way of getting people to stop harming each other with the Ten Commandments, right? So everything is predicated on agreements. Otherwise, we go to war. We do harm. You know, like I said, we're selfish, self-centered opportunistic animals. If we can get away with something, we will. That's in our DNA. Only norms and laws and principles and rules keep us from doing that

and allow us to stay together in safety and harmony. otherwise we wouldn't. No difference with a couple. So they have to come up with this as well. In other news, have you ever noticed how some websites make it ridiculously easy to buy while some feel infinitely harder? Back in my day, I had to walk 10 miles to the local store. Aren't you younger than me? Yeah, but my dad got a DUI. Anyway, the reality is most businesses just get the website wrong. And if your setup is messy, you lose a ton of sales, which is why I'm such a massive fan of Shopify. They power 10, 10% of all e-commerce in the United States, including brands like Jimshark, skims, aloe and

Newtonic. Because when it comes to converting browsers into buyers, they are best in class. Their checkout's 36% better on average compared to other platforms. And with Shoppay can boost conversions by 50%. So upgrade your business and get the exact same checkout that we use at Newtonic with Shopify. You can sign up for a free trial period by going to the link in the description below or heading to Shopify.com slash modern wisdom. That's Shopify.com. slash modern wisdom. Why do we make the fundamental agreement to prioritize each other above everything else at all times? You don't have to. You could agree that ourselves come first. Then you'd have to describe that to each other, define that. What does that really mean? Same with a relationship. What does it mean in practical purposes? If this happens, what would we do? If that happens, what will we do? Are there any exceptions to this? What could go wrong with this idea of putting ourselves first? What happens if this relationship crashes and burns? We put ourselves first. What is that? do for our kids? What does that do for our own health? So does it make sense? Maybe we would put

religion first. That's fine. But you'd have to think it's through because you're planning your life, because your lives depend on this. How you're going to rule, how you're going to govern what decisions you're going to make is going to be predicated on what is the highest priority, right? Otherwise, you're not a team. It'll be chaos when load bearing hits. You're going to, you know, be unprepared. So it's all practical, it's all tactical, it's not about emotion, it's about what would be the best thing and what one thing must be protected at all cost in order for everything else to thrive. That's how to think of it, right? But it has to be defined, has to be done judiciously because, again, it's no small thing. Your happiness, safety and security,

everything's predicated on your design. What's the threat response, on memory? Well, memory is a problem. We're memory animals. Everything we do is by memory. Most of our day is memory run. It's automatic. We're not thinking. We're not using energy expending areas of the brain that use critical thinking. We save that for novelty. We save that for our work. Save that for other things. But so we're just walking through the day doing things automatically and reflexively based on memory. Because our survival instinct, negative memory,

negative experience is favored in memory because of, we have to remember where we're hurt because of danger. Survival is at the top of our subcortical drive. Right? And it does not equivocate.

It does not differentiate. You hurt me. If you didn't fix it right, away and you do it again, then I'm going to predict you're going to do it again and again and again, which you will feel attacked by. But that is me protecting myself. I'm using pattern recognition to sweep the environment for cues. And every time you repeat something, we repeat something that's threatening, the array of threat cues that I'm looking for increase naturally makes sense. It doesn't know the difference between you holding a gun on me.

And you're looking askance that I view as a judgment as an attack, as a criticism. Right. And so this becomes problematic if we're not careful, which is why there are ways to prevent this from taking hold because it does have a snowball effect. It sounds like it sensitizes your system over time. Yeah. It has to because we have to survive. this part of our brain is lightning fast i see it i shoot it and that makes sense if you if your life depends on on making a quick decision and an action that protects you from a danger

it makes sense that this can be a problem in relationships because i will react very quickly based on my own narrative history, memory, and I will likely be wrong, and you will likely feel threatened by my assuming, which you will then protect yourself and behave in a way that's threatening in return, and therein lies a problem with the human condition, why we're better at war. We're just not great at relationships over the long run. So there are ways to remedy this, if you know what you're up against. One is quick repair. Quick repair is a way to keep memory from going into long-term memory where it's the gift that keeps on giving. And sadly, most people don't fix things quickly. They don't fix things. I'm sorry, you're right. That was stupid. I shouldn't have done that.

I'm sorry. I love you. And then move on, right. They delay it. They don't do it. They apologize in the wrong way. And so the beat goes on. And this is why families lose their kids, estrangement. That's why people get sued. That's why in the old days people, you know, challenge each other a duel to the death, you know, because we remember harm done.

We don't forget it. The person who harms us does. But because of the adrenaline, it's created when we feel a misunderstood, hurt, judged, something's unfair on. just that that creates a lot of juice to go into long-term memory unless you fix it right away in which case it doesn't so that's one of the main reasons to grow up and do what we invented

the reason we invented apologies immense was to hold onto our relationships and if you too want to hold on to your relationship with your kid or your your spouse or your parents and you've got to learn how to follow in your sword and only apologize without quivocation, without qualification, explanation, without any, any other qualifier, if you know what's good for you, because that in the real world is the only thing that will relax another person, the only thing. And I have to apologize for what you think I did, not what I think I did. I think how hard that is for us, because we're so prideful. We think that we're always, right and that's not true by the way we're hardly ever right about much and but you know it's our

arrogance it's our you know hubris to think that our communication was spot on i heard you clearly um my memory is great my perception is is correct yours isn't and none of this i can prove none of this is true at any given time it's all false and yet we'll die on that hill and it's we're dumb. It's so fascinating that intense negative experiences, if repaired quickly, have basically a completely different future ahead of them than ones that are left to faster, that if you're in a relationship which has regular rupture without repair, and especially without repair quickly, that makes it's painful in the moment and more painful in the future and sensitizes your system to detecting this happening again, even perhaps when it's not,

which means that your worldview is going to appear increasingly deranged to the other person who needs to apologize based on your interpretation, not on their projection. Right. It's vicious. It's a really badly designed system. Well, it's not designed. Like I said, remember, we used to die at 15 or 30. tops, right? We didn't live that long. We would pair a bond for four years and then leave and then,

you know, mix up the gene pool. That, you know, that satisfied the, you know, the natural, the ways of natural laws and that nature's, right? Nature didn't plan on us, you know, doing what we do today. We're on our own. That's why we have to invent our meaning. We're not born into a world with meaning, right? Clearly, we're not born into a world where we get why we're here and how we got here and where we're going. That's the whole existential dilemma, right? It's the angst. You know, we're going to die, we're alone. We don't know why we're here. And life has no meaning, right? That's very depressing. So we create meaning, right? Same thing. But meaning also involves governance. how are we going to protect each other from each other that is not by nature right we we are predators

we're apex predators as a matter of fact um we're nice on a when we're happy right you know but you may not want to be around us if we're unhappy or kind of nasty unless unless there are norms you know sweetheart you know my 14 year old daughter uh you can be angry you cannot walk around and destroy the atmosphere here for everybody who's in the house. That's a community. You can't do it. So stop it. Right? Only that stops that kind of behavior. No, you can't do this. I know you want to do it, but I'll show you you can't. Try. And I will show you you can't. And that gives rise to an idea that there are limits. There are boundaries. There are things you can and cannot do. But let's say I don't do that. Let's say I give in. Then you can get away with that.

anything, right? Because there is no God. I did that. It doesn't happen naturally. You know, Lord of the flies. You know, we're animals. And the off of the product line, you know, human primate isn't great. You know, you know, civilization, you know, over so many years of, you know, building complexity socially, emotionally, and ideals and values and in morals, principles. That, you know, the whole span of history, of course, it's a blip, but in our time, it's a long period to get here, and we're still a mess. And so, you know, again, don't be naive. you are responsible for this relationship. No one else is. You're the only ones who are going to benefit and are also going to suffer if you're not an alliance, right? If you're not working together,

you can't work. If you're not able to work together as a two-person system of we and us interdependently, having the same things to gain and lose, are you going to survive this life, really? with all the slings and arrows and all the things that happen and the indifference of others, which, you know, just test that out. And the chips are down, people will be indifferent to your concerns. And that's just the way it is. And so not knowing that preparing is just simply not being aware and not being an adult and in reality. Somewhere along the way, low energy just gets accepted as a part of getting

older. Turns out there's a reason for that. As we age our mitochondria, the parts of our cells that power us, become weaker and make less energy, which is why I'm such a huge fan of timeline. They've developed this that helps to clear out your damaged mitochondria so your cells can actually renew themselves. Timeline is backed by over a decade of research and has more than 50 patents and is the number one recommended mitochondrial supplement on the planet. This isn't just theory. In clinical trials, people saw mitochondrial renewal increased by more than 40% in just 16 weeks, along. with improvements in their overall energy. I've been using it for over two years since my doctor recommended it to me way before I partnered with Timeline and eat your heart out Martin Schrelli

because they've just dropped the price and it now starts at $99. Best of all, there is a 30-day money-back guarantee plus free shipping in the US plus they ship internationally and right now you can get that $99 price with an additional 20% off by going to the link in the description below. Are heading to timeline.com slash modern wisdom using the code modern wisdom at checkout. That's timeline.com slash modern wisdom and modern wisdom. at checkout. I've heard you say that if you leave those memories to encode in long term for too long, you can end up seeing your partner more as a predator than a lover.

Yeah, the subcortical brain does not differentiate. What's happening? What's happening neurochemically in the brain? Well, there's an intentional center. The salience network in the brain is what causes me to look, right? I hear it sound and I look, that's a salience network that's directed me to what's most important at this moment. And there are other networks that are involved here that are fear related and threat related that are involved in this one network. And so I begin to hone in on your face because you

repeatedly do something that reminds me of something that makes me feel small and devalue. Okay? You may not intend to do that, but your intentions are. aren't the matter here. I'm picking up a threat memory of cue from your face because I'm vigilant. I now have to look for this because I've been hurt too much. You feel attacked by it, but I'm simply taking care of myself. I don't control this. It is pushing me around because I don't understand it, right? I assume that everything I'm picking up is correct. I don't check. Are you are you doing that right now. Right? I just I just shoot first assuming you are doing it. And that's because these areas don't have an executive function. They're not meant to have an executive function. And an

executive function takes time and resources. That is why that, that, you know, when we're relaxed, we have all oars in the water, we can think. We can error correct. We can we can think in a relativistic way and not in a dominant end way, right? I am certain. No, maybe you're right. But I'm relaxed. I can do that. As soon as I have blood pressure and heart rate go up to a certain level, my brain changes.

I literally don't have a capacity to do that because the executive areas demand a lot of resources to run, oxygen, glucose, and blood. that is now going to my striated muscles because I'm starting to get into fight or flight and getting hyper aroused and there's a brain change I'm altered I no longer care about your interests and it takes very little this is Robert Sapolsky's work not just

very little glucocorticoids coursing through my veins for me not to give a damn about you and you lose me as an audience if you're not careful You don't even think, because you haven't noticed, you've lost me as an audience. I feel unsafe, therefore talk to the hand. I care only about my interests. You get nothing.

That's how sensitive the system is, because I've determined, I'm not safe, on a subcortical level. Now, I may not know this, but you will, if you pay attention. I will know when you fall out of safety because I'm watching you, if I am. And that's why, you know, in each other's care is we're psychobiologically wired in close proximity to pick up social emotional cues faster from the other person than we are from our own bodies. That makes it, that makes us primed for something called interactive regulation or co-regulation, right? That's another kind of teamwork, but it's more autonomic. anyway so so uh so uh it doesn't you know this is a very stupid part of us but it's but we'll thank it because we dodged a bullet um and and so i have to understand that you and i have to talk to

each other in a particular way otherwise uh you'll confuse me as an adversary and this is what's hard about secure functioning. The formula really is, I have to take care of myself and you at the same time under stress, or you will confuse me for an adversary and it will compel you to then take care of yourself only. Now we're one-person systems. We're no longer in a team sport. We're in a solo sport. Does this explain how everybody. There are no exceptions to this, by the way, All people. Does this explain how resentment accumulates in relationships? Yeah.

And relationships start to look very deranged from both the outside and the inside? One of the greatest causes of anger, sustained anger, is injustice, right? The other is helplessness. And, you know, right? And so any system that's too unfair, too unjust and too insensitive can't last because it's unfair unless it's an employer, you know, asymmetric relationship where I have to suck it up because I want the job and I need the money. But in an equal system that's voluntary, that's voluntary, if it's not fair and just, and I'm getting the short end of the stick,

you should keep your eyes open and not because that never ends well in the human field, right? And so insecure functioning is too unfair. It's good to be king. And I get things at your cost, not realizing that we're tied together psychologically. Anything I do to you is going to happen to me. There's no decoupling that. Unless this is an autocracy, unless I am the dictator, in which case I still better keep my eyes open at night. But, you know, then I get to do everything.

And you have to do it. But that's not the reality of a free and fair union of equals in adulthood, right? The expectation is that it be fair, whether people say that or not, it is that way. And that's universal. How much can you prune those bad memories? How much harder is it to get over that once you've accumulated them? You can't get rid of these memories and you don't want to because that'll happen soon enough. I'm 72 and starting to happen with names.

But you don't want to get rid of those memories. The only way to change the past is to change the future. There's no other way. These neuropathways are weighted by repeats, right? We're repeating things. And that's the worst. This is the smart thing to do that we already know and couples don't do. One is, I will apologize forever for harm done.

That is the right and just thing to do. In the real world, that is expected. I don't get a free pass in memory, right, by saying, I don't need to apologize. I did my time in prison. That's not ever going to work. Same in couples, right? I will always apologize for what you feel I did. No problem.

But let's put something in place, you and I, to prevent either of us from doing that again. If only we did that, we'd be great. because we're doing the same thing. We're learning from the past, and we're creating a future that is different based on what we learned. Let's not do that again. Not you, not just me, either of us, because we're human. We could both do this.

So we found a place where we're vulnerable. Let's close that up as we go. But couples don't do that. They just walk right into the same thing again, rinse and repeat. And that is deadly. You do not want repetition. It creates inflammation. Once that repetition start, it accrues.

And sadly, I deal with couples that have been together, you know, sometimes 12 years, but, you know, often 30 years. And they're a burdened not only by having to look back at all the resentments where they feel compelled to litigate the past, just rehearsing the same thing, that nothing comes of it. And besides, memory sucks, and they're going to fight about it. memory, and they're not watching where they're going, so they're repeating. The other thing is that when they do try to work on the relationship, now memory intrudes on the present and puts the kibosh on the future. This is a big problem we're trying to solve. How so? How does this happen? You and I have been fighting for years, and we both complain of unfairness, right?

And neither of us trust each other now because we did that. We did that. Years of doing business poorly. Now we want to write things, right? And we go to, let's say, me or anybody who's proposing, let's design this thing from the ground up. As we're doing this, one of us is going to go, that's not going to, you know, why are you depressed?

Because he'll never do this. I already know. And now I'm back. Because subcortically, I'm being yelled at. Don't trust him. That won't happen. Right? Why am I being fatalistic?

Because I'm being warned on what has happened. It doesn't, it has no interest. And I say it, these networks that are subcortical, have no interest that we're working on something to improve it. Therefore, what is now causing us a big problem is that neither of us can forget as we're going forward, going forward triggers the past. The past is always present. That's the problem.

The past that we created. Yeah. That adds a huge neurobiological layer of difficulty. Think of this. You know, as numbers grow gets more difficult because of memory, Israel and Palestine, they cannot get out of this loop because there are generations upon generations of memory where everybody is getting their justice, right? I want my justice and it's to blow up your family and now you have a reason to get your justice. And there's no getting out of that, right? because there's too many people with too much memory

and there's too many people wanting to get their justice at the cost of somebody else. Well, partners do this too. I want my justice and now I create a new one at you, right? You could put the kibosh on that, but it is hard because the very same problem is that I feel that something happened to me. There's that itch I need to scratch.

I need you to pay. I need something to square this. because there have been too many years of unfairness, and sometimes I just have to divorce you. So this accruing of memory is central, and if people only knew, they could prevent this because it is human nature, it's not him or her, it's all of us, this is a problem.

And if you don't know about it, you're going to do it. It feels like prevention is significantly better than an attempt at repair. Yes, because you cannot erase the memory. You can only relegate it, those neuropathways to a dirt road, because they're no longer being used. They're no longer being triggered. Nothing you're doing right now triggers that memory. But given that most people live lives of routine, you were concerned and a small amount of justification about why your partner was staying late at work with somebody that you felt uncomfortable about.

you learn this lesson and you even do some of the repair. You deal with all the difficulty of going back over it. You do an open and honest, completely frank apology. But the next time that your partner stays late at work, regardless of what's been done to the past, the present and your predictions about the future are now being colored by what happened before. Right. Right. Not only is the past always present, but the present is changing the past as well. So, So you and I had a great wedding, but our marriage sucks. And 12 years, 13, 15, 20 years down the line, the therapist asked us, how was your wedding? And our report is not great.

Contrast that with a couple who had the worst, had wedding from hell. People were arrested, drugs were found, looted, gifts were looted. All sorts of things happened. This is a true story. But their marriage became a great marriage. They look back on it as funny, as amazing. Their present state of mind changes our memory, which is why memory is completely unreliable, folks.

If you're arguing about memory, you're engaged in something where you're both wrong. Which is why it's so much better to just apologize for however your partner sees. it. Yeah. You don't lose anything. You gain. You keep your marriage. You keep your relationship intact. Does distance make this harder? Obviously, we're in a modern world with a lot of people who argue, but they're not together. Maybe they fight over the phone or text message or email, whatever. What wrinkles does that add to the rupture and repair conversation? I love your questions, Chris. They're great. Here's the problem. We're, we're, we're, we're, We're face-to-face eye-to-eye animals. We're legally blind on this eye.

We have to be dead on to regulate each other because we have a visual brain. Therefore, we error corrects the visual field. Everything else is messy. So if we're on the phone, we lose the visual, which means we're only using the auditory. Now, since we're visual, we're visualizing things according to our own state of mind. So if I'm angry with you, what picture of you in my head do I have at the moment? Probably not great. That color is how you sound. So my error rate in understanding and appraising you, especially if I'm under stress, all of this is about when we're under stress, which is a lot,

right? We're only talking about when one of us is under stress, things are going to go wonky if we're not careful. Under stress, I'm going to hear differently. Because, the state of mind that is that is triggered by this by my feeling by my stress is connected to memory and they they operate in a loop they reinforce each other that my state of mind alters my perception like a fun house mirror and it's stunning what i see what i taste what i hear what i feel all of that is altered by my state therefore what could go wrong here I am at an angry state. I am talking in a way my prosody changes that is unfriendly to you.

I can't see your face. You can't see my face. Maybe I was smiling. You don't know. Now we're going to fight for no reason because our error rate is sky high. And the more excited we get, the error rate goes really high. And it's over nothing, right? It's over. Our brain thinks it's something. It isn't. Or text. I mean, it's crazy. Never do relationship stuff or text. You send a picture of your goofy face. I love you. Emotocons. What time's dinner? That's it. That's the upper bound of how much your relationship should be mediated through the phone. Yes. What did we used to do? Well, I used to draw pictures on a cave. But, you know, in the old days, I'd write.

you a letter and it would take a month at least to get to you you could be sure i wrote that thinking very carefully very carefully about what i am saying it was a beautiful letter right yeah beautiful letter i didn't need spell trick i had my anxiety knowing that you're going to see this letter and it was going to take about a month right i want you to get this exactly right well what do we do now we get in a lot of trouble with our text, with our work, you know, with a, you know, add to that a little bit of ambient or a little bit of benzodiazepines or alcohol and everything, we're screwed. So, yeah, we do not understand our limitations. There are things we cannot do, and yet we expect things that are not possible.

Like you and I, under stress, can talk about more than one topic without fighting. That's impossible. or that you and I can talk about an emotional conversation while one of us is driving. That will end badly. It's not possible. You know, there are things that people don't understand that we're limited by, we're smart in so many areas, and we're so fucking stupid on a daily basis. And it's funny, except we take all of it personally, and most of it isn't. Most of it is because we're stupid, automatic, reflexive, memory-based, not thinking, not paying attention.

Because we live in a world where our attention is constantly split now. In other news, if you're trying to go from Joey Chestnut to Joey Swole, the RP strength app is the best place to start. I've been in the gym for 20 years, and it wasn't until the past few years that I had the best training sessions of my life. And RP was a massive part of that. Actual scientists built this thing around one obsession to beat up their high school bullies and provide the most. signs back to effective path to maximizing muscle gain. It tells you your exercises, how many sets, reps and weights that you need to do, everything. So all that you have to do is show up and lift. If the RP app could wipe your ass for you, it probably would. And it

adjusts automatically every week based on how you're actually progressing. For me, following a proper evidence-based plan has made a massive difference. And if you're serious about training, it'll do the same for you too. Right now, you can get up to $50 off the RP hypertrophy app by going to the link in the description below, heading to RPstrength.com Modern Wisdom and using the code Modern Wisdom at checkout. That's RPstrength.com slash modern wisdom and modern wisdom at checkout. What does, I'm thinking about kind of how we discuss at the top of this, it's like a conversation about compatibility.

How much of relationship conflict is just based around incompatibility and not pointing in the same direction or being specific about what each of you wants to see if you're in agreement in advance? compatibility in my game and my mind only is where you and I are pointing in two different directions on the big ticket items, right? I want full transparency. I want us to, you know, this is a team sport says I. I want us to work together. I want our left hands and right hands to know the same thing.

That keeps us safe. That's what I want. Best thing. And you say not so fast. I don't. would you have a right to say? I don't think that's the best idea for me. I don't think it's really good for you,

but I'll try to convince you. I think we should have our secrets. I think we should have our privacy. You have every right to want that. Now, if you stick to your guns, and I can't get you over to my side, you can't get me over to your side in an honest way. I have to really selfishly want what you want or it won't work,

and vice versa. We're not, we're incompatible. we're not wrong, we're just incompatible. That's true incompatibility, not you have a greater sex drive than I do, not I like tennis and you don't. That's not the kind of compatibility that's going to make a difference in life. All interests are going to change no matter what. That's not a problem, right? You can create mutual interest.

But these things won't work. It's not about healthy, unhealthy, good, bad, right or wrong. It just can't work, right? It's a built-in fight. So, you know, you can't ignore those things. But the attachment system, the I can't quit you, biology will make us go, let's get married and ignore that deal breaker. You've said it a couple of times that I can't quit you biology. What is that?

Attachment is nature's glue. keeps us sticky, it keeps us together. And it feels like love because it has loving aspects to it and behaviorally could have it. But let's say you and I am abusive. I hurt you physically and mentally. That glue is likely to keep you in this relationship and you'll justify it in all sorts of ways. or because you're financially dependent on, you know, justified, or because your religion says this, or because you're in a culture where divorce is down upon, whatever it is, you'll come up with, or the kids,

the kids will suffer that, right? I have all these reasons, but I'm telling you, the main reason is the attachment biology that is connected to survival, that feels like death. I'm largely unaware of it. Some people are acutely aware. depending on their attachment organization. But that isn't always their thing for most people.

There are outliers, but they're different. They're different. They don't attach in the same way. And so everything in nature has a feature and a bug. Everything that's a feature is a bug. And also in personalities. He's also, you know, if somebody has massive OCD, that's a feature for a surgeon. You know, you want your surgeon to have OCD.

You want your pilot to have OCD, right? Your accountant has OCD, that's great. You don't want a spouse with OCD necessarily because that's a pain in the ass. That's a bug there. So all of this isn't really good or bad. All people are disappointing. All people are pain in the ass. All people are trouble.

and a burden. What you want is to create a system whereby neither of you can possibly feel unsafe or insecure by design. Neither of you will be unhappy in a relationship by design. You can do that. You can structure things this way. You can't control everything else outside of this. But home, I think, is as a relationship. Tracy and I, no matter where we go, as long as,

as we're together, I'm fine. And we've been in some really terrible places. I mean, really terrible places. That's an achievement. You know, that home is where we are. It's going to make me want to cry because when you start to get to this place, the only thing now that's the bug is worrying that you can lose them, you know, not to, you know, affairs, not to do. of worse, but the death. And that's really troubling. Although it does make me appreciate the moment instead of taking it for granted, which is what we should all do, because we're in denial about that. Your partner could die at any moment. Did you say what you needed to say? Have you really enjoyed that person? And you're really here? Or are you going to regret that you,

You know, that's, again, nature is forces. Energy conservation is to do the least amount necessary and direct our attention to what we deem important. It's usually something that is not familiar. You are familiar, therefore I don't need to look at you anymore. I don't need to court you anymore. I don't need to know you anymore. I think I know you. I don't.

I, you know, we store a picture of our partners in our children's face and our brain. for weeks and months without really looking. I didn't even notice this. That's how lazy we are. And it's not laziness. It's energy conservation. Therefore, we have to build rituals or there would never do anything good for ourselves.

We would have to, you know, build things in that are romantic every day that we would do to fall in love again with each other every day. It just doesn't happen. Behavior wise, hell of how we feel. And these are the forces we're up against on all of us, automation. And we're going to automate each other. Therefore, I think I know you. That's a dangerous

proposition. I don't know you. I don't, I can never fully know you. And not only that, you've been on the planet too long, which is why we used to have pillow talk and shoot the breeze and about our childhood. It's just fun talk. Now I see, I sit with couples and they know nothing about each other. You're not curious. There's no curiosity. Curiosity is the flame. Curiosity is the dopamine.

Curiosity is the strangeness that goes, you know, you're novel, even though I think you're familiar. If I look really closely, you're not as familiar as I think. Now you're interesting, but we'd have to look for the novelty in the ordinary,

and we're too lazy to do that. It's interesting with the I can't quit you thing. I think a lot of people, you mentioned injustice and helplessness. And it's strange that... And fear. And fear will make us angry.

Yeah. With sort of sufficiently disorganized attachment, you can fear and feel injustice and be helplessly stuck inside of a relationship with a person who is both supposedly the salve, but also the cause of all of these issues of your psychological maladies. And people will, it's another feature in bug scenario where it's a noble thing to sacrifice

your needs in place of somebody that you're attached to, but that also can get hijacked to the point where you just continue to grit your teeth. As you mentioned, the couple that's been together for so long and they haven't enjoyed each other for decades and decades. and they just keep going because... They can't stop. Yeah, yeah. It's a kind of addiction.

Well, yeah, there is an addictive component to it. I don't want to mislead your audience because it's not truly that. When I do something to feel better at the cost of doing the right thing, in other words, I feel better, but I just hurt the relationship, the union, I do get a reward. for that, right? A feel good, which makes me want to do it again and again. And it is, you know, it is like addiction where I'm going to grab it for it because I can't hold and wait. I can't wait, right? I'm going to take it now. Even though there's downstream bad effects for me, I'm ignoring those. So in that sense, yeah, that's very much like an addiction that is impulsive and needs to grab

impulsively what I need to do despite the fact that it's self-harming. So, yes, but the system begins to react to itself. And that's really another way to look at it as systemic. The system is reacting no longer real individuals. They're amplifying each other's negatives by pointing and poking their core vulnerabilities. Here's another unfair kind of unkind nature thing. Is that because we pair bond based on some kind of familiarity and recognition, we don't pair bond. on with strangers that are too strange, right? They have to be familiar enough. We're both likely to

have the bite that fits the other person's wound. We're not those people, but we kind of play them on TV. We have the predilection. We have the ability to do those things that remind us of those relationships, which is why it's problematic. So, memory. Now, if we didn't know better, I don't know you have this wound, I only see your defense against it and your defense is really threatening. So I respond in a threatening way, which consolidates your vulnerability and increases your defense. And right, it makes you certain that I'm a dangerous character. Well, you're doing the same with me. You happen to be poking me in a core vulnerable place and that I can't do anything other than react. You don't know this because the way I'm responding to you feel threatening, of course.

Therefore, you are going to protect yourself from me, and therein lies the problem. We're going to make each other worse naturally because you're not paid to sit there and just think about what I'm doing. You're going to take it personally. Now, if you're a therapist, you can't do that, right? I have to sit and I have to sit with my feelings and not jump up and act out. I have, but I regret that. But, you know, we're human. But we're paid to do otherwise, right? Your partner isn't. And therefore, we're more likely to make each other worse because it's a misunderstanding. You can't know why I'm doing this threatening thing and you don't need to know because you're feeling threatened. So knowledge is power, understanding how the brain works,

understanding how these systems work, understanding your partner inside out, being an expert on your partner, which if your survival mattered to you and you thought about it, you better know how to restore your partner back to, you know, level thinking and level performance because your life does depend on them.

They go down, you're in the foxhole together, your debt. So you better know the animal you picked and how to work with this animal, be an animal whisperer this one, they're not you. And you're going to need them if you are a team. It matters if they go down, and you better know how, just the right way to pick them back up. Again, what's the point? So this is an orientation, and couples just not oriented towards this being a survival team. but it is you just haven't been tested yet it's not thrown you that curve

you're not in Bosnia during that time you're not in Ukraine and Russia now you're not in Gaza or you know right that whole different orientation there they know what's important it's to protect each other right we don't

we're asleep that's the denial system because it would get in the way if we always had to plan for this but the planning for this starts with the building blocks of raining each other in and being safe and secure and predicting and planning and preventing future problems by predicting them ahead of time that does the same thing you don't have to build you know together a bomb shelter that's That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about that the two of you know how to build structure, how to reform this to your liking. You just have to know how to do it and practice it, and it has to be predicated on principles that cannot be violated. Jared's, if you ever considered you might have a drinking problem?

I don't consider a lot, Chris. What, you drank an entire case of Athletic Brewing Co. But they're non-alcoholic. And that's not a problem? Sorry, man. I kept chugging wait for the regret to creep in. Never happened. Didn't you end up going home with that chick with the lazy eye? I didn't seem lazy to me. See, most people like Jared don't actually want to change what they drink.

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If you could give people, couples, the most important big movers, the most important principles that they should follow to create these secure functioning relationships. That's what everybody wants, right? It's the thing that is the most important. It's going to help us steal ourselves against the woes of the world and the slings and arrows

that are going to come from outside of it. What are the things that people should focus on in order to do that? On a more focused level, I'm going to give you two, see. On focus level, start now. If you do nothing else, make sure that you repair to the other person's satisfaction. You can see their face, relax.

If they're not relaxed, you're not done yet. Repair, fix, make it right, make amends properly, immediately, or within 30 minutes. Make that a habit, make that a law, make that what must happen. Otherwise, you're going to die sooner. I guarantee you because of the cortical steroids you produce in that stress. when there's a breach. You're not doing yourself any favors. And you're setting the other person up for and yourself for a long-term memory. And that's, you're not going to want that. So fix, fix it right away. I don't care how you do that. If you can do nothing else, you can say to each other, you know, I hate you right now, but we're okay. It turns out that the we're okay is, is sufficient through the night or be able to get through your day because I promise you if you don't do that you're

you are not at your optimum performance level you can't be uh you won't be as you're paying attention so you know what's good for yourself you just settled the existential question that is there when there's a breach in relationship when we fight will this relationship exist tomorrow are we okay if you can just do that minimum you're better than most and my wife and I have a rule we can go to bed angry but we have to at least touch toes and that's hardly you might think but but that's been practiced and there's an immediate reward for doing the right thing when it's the hardest thing to do and that is your self-esteem goes right up because you know you did the hardest thing the right thing when it was the hardest thing we're

already doing the easiest things that's what we're always done but that's what we're always done that's not a good line. A purpose-centered life is decided ahead of time that this is right, best, or good. So say us both. And we're going to plan to do this for when we actually do not feel like doing it at all. Even when I hate you, I still do this beautiful thing. Even when I hate you, I still don't do this destructive thing, right? That's a good life. That's a good life. That's the only thing that's ever been a good life, that is reliable, that earns love, that earns respect as daily or proving to each other. We stick to our principles. We show each other when we fail, we fall on our swords, beg for forgiveness, and make it right, simple. And the other thing is design

your relationship. Start with who are you, shared power, shared authority, something other than that. You've got to be explicit and you've got to think ahead. Yeah, I'd like you to be in charge. like him. Okay, remember that if he's in charge, you don't get the final say on anything. You understand that, right? Unless you build that in somehow. Right. And so you just have to be adult and a grown-up because your individual lives are now your own, not your parents. And this, and as a couple, you're on your own. You're the leaders here. There is nobody else. No, therapist, right? I'm not going to define your relationship. You have to. It's your gig. You can have it any way you want. And believe me, people have some very strange and novel arrangements, right? Fine.

They're great because they fully agree. They've worked it out. No problem. But they, it's all explicit. It's never implied, right? Because if it's implied, I'm going to abuse that. that that reality right has to be explicit and agreed upon like a blood oath because um uh this is this really is about our lives depend on on adhering to this we have to buy you have had to drink the cool aid and buy into it because we're going we're expected to come through when we least want to and that's going to happen for sure awesome stan tatkin ladies and gentlemen stan i think you're brilliant i think your work rules where should people go to check out everything you do all right the packed

is a place to go to T-H-E-P-T-T-N institute.com. If you're a couple, there's a couple area that is devoted to you, workshops and retreats, materials. And then if you're a clinician, that's how this started. We do trainings all over the world, and you can find that information there. Oh, and there's a new product called the Win-Win'Win'U couple. The first time we've done a filming on how to work together collaboratively under stress. And that video is now available on the website.

They go to the Paxite. Thank you. Stan, I appreciate you. Until next time. Chris, you're terrific. I wish every interviewer is like you. That's what I wanted to hear. All right. Thank you.

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