Modern Wisdom - How To Make Your Creativity Beat The Algorithm (w/Live Performance) - Dylan Gossett - #1155

Episode Date: September 26, 2026

Dylan Gossett is a country singer, songwriter, and music producer. Dylan's breakout hit 'Coal' took him from an aspiring musician in Austin, Texas, to a rising name in country music. But what did that seemingly overnight success actually take, how has it changed his life, and what has he learned about making a living doing what he loves? Expect to learn the creative process behind Dylan’s hit ‘Coal’ and the decisions he made to engineer it for max virality, what it was like being an overnight success, how Dylan’s writing process differs from the typical Nashville music machine, the impacts of AI on songwriting and the music industry as a whole, how to not be captured by your audience and let your creativity thrive, and much more… Sponsors: See discounts for all the products I use and recommend: ⁠https://chriswillx.com/deals⁠ Get up to $350 off the Eight Sleep Pod 6 at ⁠https://eightsleep.com/modernwisdom⁠ Get 35% off your first subscription on the best supplements from Momentous at ⁠https://livemomentous.com/modernwisdom⁠ Get the brand new Whoop 5.0 and your first month for free at ⁠https://join.whoop.com/modernwisdom⁠ Get 10% discount on all Gymshark products at ⁠https://gym.sh/modernwisdom⁠ (use code MODERNWISDOM10) Get ChatGPT to explore ideas, solve problems, and learn faster at ⁠⁠https://chatgpt.com⁠ (00:00) The Story Behind Dylan’s Breakout Song ‘Coal’ (09:56) How to Avoid Getting Lost in the Music Industry (18:11) Why Being Unpolished Feels More Authentic (20:50) Is Country Music Having a Renaissance? (22:47) Is the Song Actually Good or Just Viral? (28:07) Why Staying Successful Is Harder Than Getting There (32:29) Inside Dylan’s Songwriting Process (37:28) Do Artists Still Write Their Own Songs? (51:02) Why We Shouldn’t Always Take Shortcuts (01:01:16) Is Emotion the Secret to Dylan’s Music? (01:03:08) Why Sad Men Are Taking Over Country Music (01:09:24) The Hardest Emotions to Turn Into Music (01:14:52) Don’t Lose Yourself Chasing an Audience (01:22:59) A Snippet From Dylan’s New Album Extra Stuff: Get my free reading list of 100 books to read before you die: ⁠https://chriswillx.com/books⁠ Try my productivity energy drink Neutonic: ⁠https://neutonic.com/modernwisdom⁠ Episodes You Might Enjoy: #577 - David Goggins - This Is How To Master Your Life: ⁠lnkfi.re/SN-Goggins⁠ #712 - Dr Jordan Peterson - How To Destroy Your Negative Beliefs: ⁠lnkfi.re/SN-Peterson⁠ #700 - Dr Andrew Huberman - The Secret Tools To Hack Your Brain: ⁠lnkfi.re/SN-Huberman⁠ - Get In Touch: Instagram: ⁠https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx⁠ Twitter: ⁠https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx⁠ YouTube: ⁠https://www.youtube.com/modernwisdompodcast⁠ Email: ⁠https://chriswillx.com/contact⁠ - Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

People of the UK and Ireland, I'm coming to you live. Imagine that, me on stage in your city. Dublin is completely sold out, but everywhere else has got limited tickets left, and you can get yours now at Chris Williamson.com. This is a custom-built live show. I absolutely adore it. I've spent over a year working on it. So, if you're a fan of everything, Modern Wisdom,

come and see me on stage this October around the UK and Ireland. Chris Williamson.com. Well, I'm heading back to Austin, trying to find me again. Something to keep. me busy keep these hands from trembling and there's something like the weather to try and mock my mind I'll try to think of something clever and keep me satisfied I'll take burning on the weekend straight down 29 past the cedars and believers can't drive when to get out of the city

and pass the smell of the ball in the sky leaving scars because I've been having trouble sleep so I'm headed back to Austin when I close my eye trying to focus what's her head who kind of mom see a girl who says she loves me to make me to wait I'm in having trouble sleep I've been having trouble I can't find out I close my... Unbelievable. So good. Thank you very much.

Great to see you. That one's about Austin, Texas, obviously. Very timely. Yeah. Did you write most of Cole in 25 minutes? Is that right? Yeah. Cole was written one of the fastest ones I probably were written.

Yeah. It started, I can kind of show you. So it started just with... Maybe not this exact chord progression. It was a little bit different. I don't have an old video that I could show you, but I think, I almost, I think it has started with kind of that hook. The, they say, pressure makes diamonds heavy hit. You know, I was like, that's, that's great.

That's a song. We got to build around it. And then, yeah, verse by verse. And it was just, I remember I was like, had my phone type in on top of our dog kennel in the apartment at the time. And it was like right before we went out with, like, some work friends. And none of my friends knew I sound, like, at all. I didn't, I don't know, I just don't go around telling people. and Roak Cole went out

and Julia my wife was just stoked on it She was like, this is so sick And she was just showing people Like Snapchat videos of the song She was like, you know, just What do y'all think about this? And they were like, Dylan, you sing? And I was like, cats out of the bag, I guess

And then didn't do anything with it for like A year or two. No way. You sat on that, you sat on a song That did like half a billion streams Yeah. For a year or two. I just, I wasn't, I wasn't on socials.

Like I wasn't put anything out. I didn't do anything until we were on a camping trip with my buddy Caden and his now wife, MK, and my wife and I, Julia. And I brought my guitar and was just playing some songs. And Caden has, like, the best ear of anyone I know. He's like an A&R that doesn't work in A&R. And he heard Cole and he's like, please sing it again. He's like voice memoed it.

And he's like, you got to do something. You have to do something. And my wife was like, Dylan, you should just post on TikTok. And I was like, well, I'm not a TikToker. I was like, I honestly can't stand it. I don't I just not like it's not my thing um but yeah I started doing it and then Cole became this thing which is insane one of my buddies is best man at his wedding godfathered was kid and he was playing we were at a friend's house who has a karaoke machine and I don't even know why there

was a guitar there and he'd been doing exactly the same thing and bullied him bullied him I was like no come on come on because the choice was between him playing acoustic guitar with a beautiful voice and one of our friends sad emo rapping. And I was like, hey, look, the decision is really easy for me to make in terms of a pressure. The fucking floor, dude, is so low for you to get over here. Yeah. So I'm interested, where were you in life when you were doing those lyrics? What is that song?

So I was living in Austin. I worked in, are you talking about Cole? Yeah, Cole. So I was living in Austin. I was working at the racetrack, the Circuit of the Americas down here. So I was, at the time, I was an event operations. I think I was, I was out. I started as an intern.

I used to live there in like a trailer in my parents' RV for months. And I just lived at the job site. But I, yeah, I was working there. And I might have just kind of been through like a tough season. Like F1 season is just kind of brutal, especially for like the outside guys. You're just, I mean, it's just like 20 hour days. Like you're living out there when it's F1. time and I don't know it's like that it might have been some you know inter- interpersonal family

thing you know whatever it might have been at the time and um you know I always try to say like it's a it's a pretty deep kind of dark song but I try like tell people I wasn't in like the worst spot of my life you know but I was just going through everyday struggles you know just like everybody does and um that's kind of what it was I felt like I was in a pit I was like I'm not going anywhere I'm not really like, I don't know, I don't feel like I'm chasing anything right now. Like I'm having a great life. Like me and my wife and our dog, we're having great, like, we're very happy. And I was like, but a lot of other stuff, we were just like, you know, whatever, you know.

It's interesting. There's like an input, output equation, I think a lot of people feel. And if you're putting lots in, the goal, the hope, is it something that's going to come out on the other side of it? But you have this sort of latent leverage after a while. Like you build up, you know, you pull back in. elastic band and you pull it back and pull it back and pull it back and pull it back. And we hope that life is going to be a bit more linear, but a lot of the time you're kind of just accumulating reps or doing something, maybe not even doing whatever, and putting in

more work than you will do in future and not seeing the rewards. I think that's why, you know, the top comment, Col's got 22 million plays on YouTube. The top comment says, this song has the feeling when you're working on yourself and making progress, but you still feel lonely and like a failure. Yeah. Honestly, that's a great way to put. Like, that's how it felt, I guess. It's like it just felt like we were putting the hours in, almost.

You know, it's like we're doing it. But I don't know. It's like we don't feel any different. But now, I almost see now it's like without, like if Cole happened, let's say, let's say I was writing about other stuff and Cole happened five years earlier, no way. There's no way that I think I would be touring doing the same thing that we're doing right now. Why? Because without, I think without going through that.

job and understanding even personal relationships outside of college, like just kind of real world items. I don't know. I feel like I can't even imagine being thrown into the music industry or trying to write songs or any of that without I feel like having a real frame of reference to come back to. Does that make sense? Like I, dude, even music as an artist, I think people don't understand it is such a business. Like, I think people imagine artists and myself just being like, look, I strum the guitar, I show up the shows, we collect our money,

and that's our lot. Like, that's, I feel, there's at times where I feel a lot more like a business manager than an artist, for sure. There's a book called The E-Meth Revisited by, I think it's Michael Gerber. It's like just a business book.

It's quite well done. And he tells this fictional story in there of a woman who runs a bakery. and this woman loves making cakes which she loves to do and she's made cakes for the family and she makes a cake for her friends and it's her passion

and she's great at it and everyone's best cakes I'm going to open a bakery wouldn't that be cool small local bakery so she opens a bakery and then it gets popular because she makes great cakes

but she needs to hire some staff and some staff come in and the staff start to make some of the cakes and she's involved in the ingredients and the recipes and the releases but then there's accounts to do and she grows a little bit more

and then she gets a factory and she's spending a little bit less time making cakes and before she knows it, she hasn't made a fucking cake in years. And this, no matter what industry you're in, you have to learn to be able to say no to things or to focus on stuff

that previously you would have begged to have had the opportunity to say yes to. I want to be in the room with the A&R person or you're a writer and you have all of the opportunities to go and do speaking gigs. It's like, why were you great as a writer? What made you great as a blogger on Substack?

or as an author that writes books or whatever it is. It was because of the time that you spent like stewing in your ideas, right? Like marinating in this stuff. It was the three-hour walks that you took with the dog. And all of that time gets squeezed because we can't see basically like obvious productivity is really easy to track. How many hours did you spend on Slack today? Or how many emails did you sound? I've got a full back-to-back day of scheduled calls.

This must make me really important. And you go, well, how useful is it for you to go fishing for an afternoon? with nothing else happening. Well, I worked really hard today. I went fishing. The Puritan work ethic, the guilt that comes up, because I should be working harder,

but that's not what necessarily got you here. No, and it's so strict. Because, yeah, because, like, expectations change from everyone involved, too, right? Like, it's the fans have different expectations with the listeners. I have a different expectation as myself, as I put up more and more albums.

Back when I was writing Cole, I was not writing it for anything. I was just like, this is my outlet, this is my passion. I love playing guitar. I'm just going to pick it up and write. I had no reason to do that. But I wanted to because that was just what I was so passionate about,

kind of like the bakery. Like she wants to just bake. I want to bake some fucking cakes. And now it's like three years, three and a half years later, where I guess from Cole writing, it's like five years. But looking back, like if I wrote that exact same song today and I, like, if I hear the version of Cole right now, I would be like, what is this demo?

I would never put that out, you know? And it's like, I tried to remind myself, like, I'm in the studio. Because, like, that was just, that song was just made on my laptop on the edge of my bed. Like, that's where Cole was recorded, engineered. The only thing I didn't do on that song was master it, which actually, I put it out. We had to retake it down to remaster it because it was so. The levels were all over.

It was just off. It, like, didn't blend in with other music. So, yeah, it's so strange. Like, you have to, yeah, you've got to find that passion, which I still have it. And, like, I think, you know, obviously, I'm going to, I'm going to talk about the struggles of music because there are some, but the last thing I'm going to be is ungrateful for what it is. Like, I'm living my dream. Like, whenever I have struggles in this industry, because there are, kind of like you said, it's like four years ago, I would have killed to be stressing

out about putting my album out. You know, oh, I have to go sign vials in Nashville. I would have died for that, dude, you know? So I don't know. I just, I have to remind myself that. My wife reminds me that all the time. She's just like my. my number one supporter and just like the greatest teammate in the world. So, yeah, it's such, just, it's the goalpost just changed. Isn't it crazy? You know about habituation and hedonic treadmill, right? Like you get, you can't wait to get a new car, you spend all of your time thinking about this new car. You get the new car and then after six months, you sort of bored of it. You're looking after the next one. What nobody really talks about is the same thing,

but with goals and problems, right, that you wanted to have to do sound check. I just wish that I had a team of people who would maybe tune my fucking guitar before I go out there. And then you've got to negotiate because one of the fucking guitar techs has had to leave, so we need to get a new guitar tech. Hang on. So you're telling me that the person I pleaded, like begged, prayed to have, and I need to get a replacement for, and that feels like a burden to me. Yeah.

And we get accustomed to a different quality of life, a different level of ease or something. And yeah, I've always thought it would be really cool. If you could take photos of your own mind and go back and visit them like you can with a photograph, what would it be like to go back to the texture of your mind from four years ago? Even just plug it in. What problems? Yeah, what problems were you thinking about? Yeah.

What concerned you as you fell asly, money worries. Am I going to make, I'm the fucking circuit of the America. I'm boiling hot on the fucking golf cart. Can we do verse court a little, a little coal? Yeah, let's do it. Beautiful. Yeah. This was like the, because you know it's funny.

I posted a video of Cole way early on. cared. It didn't do anything. But I was fine with that. I was like I already stuck to I was like I'm just going to keep posting. I didn't post Cole again until after To Be Free happened the first song ever put out because I was like I have a little traction now I should try to like I really really believe in the song like the writing on it's really good and then it was like yeah like that video changed. Why did you do that in Cole? Why did you do that pre-chorus? Because you don't drop like the line until the second time it comes around. Why did you make that creative decision? two things. At the time when TikTok, I hated what music promotion was. I hated that it was like,

okay, we're going to hear this 15 second clip of bad lyrics weren't even on the screen really at this time. Like people weren't like, I don't know, it was just like all about a 15 second clip that people can just repost and redo videos to dance or whatever it was. And what they would do is they would get all these presaves lined up, pre-say, pre-sit, and they would just extend this thing for just, just months. And what I did with Cole was like, I think the strength of this song is in the writing. It's not necessary. I think the hook is like this huge payoff at the very end that the people who listened to it are going to get. At the moment, at the time, I wasn't thinking like, oh, I should probably shave that off because a 20 second video is going to have a lot more views than a 45 second video like you're saying. But I also just like the writing of it.

I don't know, like I've seen heaven without dying with the devil without trying. Like I was super proud of that and I was like I think that's a good hook to bring you who knows if there if I started with the course it might have never happened like you know if it was a dark sky instead of a sunny day when I was recording it might have never happened like I think about that stuff all the time it's I took like I did like five different videos that day and I just chose that one I was like there's a chance that that video didn't go I never posted Cole again and I'm we're not having this conversation, you know what I mean? So it's, yeah, I don't know. I also like, I'm very, I'm a big believer in that things happen for a reason. So that also gives me peace of mind.

I don't know. But, yeah, so. Well, I've seen heaven without dying met the devil without trying and they both saying, I want to talk to me. But I'm all out of luck now when my dreams aren't worth a book how it's tough trying to land on my faith when this game life plays heavy on my heart and love is tough loneliness twice as hard I'm carrying out about everywhere I go they say pressure makes diamonds how the hell of hell I still cold. So good. So good. So I mean,

do you think deliberately looking unpolished is now its own kind of marketing? Because as soon as you find, as soon as somebody does it on the deck and it's successful, like everything becomes commercialized. Like authenticity is really difficult to survive once a team recognizes it's got commercial value. And then that kind of kills what authenticity is because people are now performing authenticity. Yeah. I mean, so that was something. And I mean, it's honestly, it's still something I obsess over of like, and I don't obsess over it in a way of like, how do we make this look and feel, you know? Because people are smarter than they ever are.

Like, dude, you're not going to fake it. And people do, and maybe I'm wrong. You know, maybe people do believe a lot of self-as-authentic when it's just absolutely not. But I don't know. I just feel like I try to stay true to what my mind was thinking when I first got into this thing. Of like, there's lines I won't cross. Like, what like? I would never sacrifice.

for a while I wouldn't even run ads I wouldn't do anything I would not and I and I drove my team crazy and I guarantee you I probably took a hit on a lot of things for that and maybe I was overthinking it but I was just like look I don't want to just all the sudden like you said it's like we know this thing works I don't want to all the sudden just dive in everyone's telling me we'll wait that's the formula yeah here's the formula don't post don't don't put it out right now wait three months get your presaves up, post it 30 more times. I posted Cole in total. Even like today, I think it's been like seven to 10 times ever. You're kidding. Ever. Now when it came out, I think I posted it four times. And what people would tell you now is like, no, you got to post that song 50 times. You know,

and it's like, I don't know, it's just such this weird thing in the, in music right now where there's so many people doing it. So like, you've got to get out there somehow and you've got to, you've got to separate yourself somehow. It's even 10x of whenever I, like Cole came out of like the amount of people kind of playing this type of music. And I don't know. I really don't have the answer to like how to separate. Because everyone's doing the authentic thing now and everything, everyone's doing the polished thing. Like there's just so many things. And I think in your world and in my world, the ends of the barbell are where people are succeeding. So very, very produced, right? Like super, super polished or very raw and strip back. And I think the middle is where people seem to go

to die at the moment. But talking about the growth of the music industry, Billboard top 10 from 2020 to 2023, rap music, 34% country music, 7%. 25 to 26. Country music, 27%. So rap music's gone in half and country music's 4xed. That's incredible. That's pretty crazy. Yeah, I mean, I think it's the natural way of things. Like, I think at some point, country will be back down and rap will be back up. Again, that's fine. That the two ends of the... You know what I'm saying?

Yeah, yeah. But also, like, it's... Country is not what country was in 2020. Like, I mean, I hear songs right now that are charting or whatever that I'm like, that's a great song. I love it. I wouldn't call it country, but sure, you know, you know, it's got acoustic guitar on it. Let's do it.

That's country. Close enough. But, yeah. It's cool. I think at some point it'll go back. There'll be like a whole new wave of hip hop or something that comes in, which is cool too. A quick aside, if you'd wanted an eight sleep but could never quite justify the price, things just got very interesting. They've somehow managed to make it significantly better and cheaper at the same time. Introducing the brand new Pod 6. It's now 50% smaller, meaning it fits under most bed frames. And there are nine times more census built into it. Despite all of these upgrades, the Pod 6 now starts at just one.

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What's interesting is how virality can reward different behaviors, because as soon as you find a way to make something become effective, everybody's going to start to play that. I guess, how do you tell the difference between a song that's good and a song that's just algorithm-friendly? Ooh. I mean, I feel like I have a bad view. on this because I'm in it. So like, I feel like I can pretty easily see

when something has something pushing it. You know, like, I'm like, I kind of know what the markers are, like when I hear a song that's trending, and like I'll go look at the audio or whatever, and I'm like, okay, they got a team. Like, they're running this thing. Like, what is some of the indications?

Like, okay, you'll see, you'll see a song come out and there's a thousand truck edits to it or something. And I'm like, What's a truck edit? Like, okay, you'll see, you'll see a new song come out and it'll be like a video of an account, but all they do is just truck videos with like cool, moody lighting, with lyrics on the top, and they put a song to it.

I didn't realize this was an ecosystem on Instagram. Oh, it's not just truck. The truck ecosystem, the truck Instagram ecosystem is going. Yeah, that's a big thing. And again, it's a smart thing because a lot of people follow those accounts for music. So, like, what teams will do is, you know, they'll, they'll pump someone's song on stuff like that. Now, I'll say now more than ever, that doesn't mean that you're going to have a hit song. It might put more ears on it, but, like, if the song is not that great and if it kind of sounds like something else, like, it just won't, it still won't really catch.

You know, this is the kind of escalation of firepower when it comes to marketing, that how much harder is it to break through if every, moderately good song has now got an army of clippers and truck edits and boat edits behind it so yeah that's I mean that's and that's what I mean is all it's almost like in my in my case right like I'm I'm very blessed to be in the position that I am is like selling tickets that's what we've always based this thing off of like we've never really outside of coal we've never really had like viral moments like that was it like we haven't really had one since before and but what matters to me is that our shows keep growing Like, that's all I've always cared about is, like, getting people to buy tickets in seats. And, I mean, even that's getting harder with just how many, everyone in their mom is touring right now.

Yes. It's a-blue dot fever is happening. Yeah. And that's just like, that's a whole other crazy thing. That's, uh, that's just like, that is a mixture of just everything going against people buying tickets. So like- But then, you know, part of the, for the people that don't know, blue dot fever is a wave of artists, many of whom, are pretty big doing some pretty large venues, some stadiums, some arenas not selling out or often not selling enough to even maybe continue with the show or perhaps killing the tour

entirely. And part of it is, is this person as relevant as they thought, have they overcooked it? But another huge part of it is what are the fucking ticket prices? Yeah. Like what's happening with Ticketmaster and Live Nation and how much are people getting squeezed and dynamic pricing. It's all cohesing at the same time. But one of the most common things I'm hearing on the show

is how much real-life events are going to come back. Like everyone's bullish as fuck on live music. Everyone's so bullish on comedy, on real-world events, on, you know, slow phone tech-free Sabbaths, trying to touch grass and, you know, fucking see the sky again. And at the same time, you have this other force, which is cost of living. People don't have as much money as they want anymore.

And Live Nation and Ticketmaster and every venue on the planet knows, okay, well, I've got to squeeze, but I can't squeeze too much. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's like, yeah, you want to go see a massive stadium act, right? It's like, cool for me and my wife to go, that's going to be a four-figure day. And that's if I'm in the nosebleeds. That's if I'm in the worst seat in the stadium. I got to go get a hotel. I got to park for $50.

I got to, if I want to buy a shirt. Babysitter. I mean, you're talking about thousands of dollars to go see a show. in a really bad seat. From row F. And then they go, well, hold on. This TikTok artist that, remember we have on our playlist, he's playing down the road for a $15 ticket, and there's 200 people going.

And it's like, let's just do that. But there's a thousand people now. So to have, I feel like agents' jobs are getting harder every day, too, because it almost, like, you build touring off of, like, sellouts and coming back and revamping, your show that you did after an album. You come back to the city, you crushed. And it's like, all right, well, now you can do 20% more tickets because your album's doing well and people are enjoying it.

So let's do it. But now it's almost at the point where it's like, oh, you know, Dylan's coming to Chicago. We saw him last year. Great show. Loved it. But we saw them. And what about this new artist that's coming? We should go see him because we can only choose one show this month or this year because

everything's so expensive. So it's just, yeah, dude, it's such an interesting landscape. Again, we're just very blessed we get to keep doing it. So that's what we should try to. Overnight success used to be a bit of an insult, and now it kind of feels like what everyone's chasing. Yeah. Yeah.

Strange. Very strange. But I also think a lot of people aren't ready for it, maybe. Like, I mean, I wasn't ready for it, but luckily, like, it didn't happen in such a way when I was too young. Or, like, it kind of happened, like, in the perfect moment. Like, my wife and I just got married six months earlier. Like, they'll settle down, moving.

to a house together, and then it happened, you know? And I, uh, yeah, it, you know, I think the hardest part is maintaining it. I feel like that's, that's what does not always happen, is someone will have a really big moment and you'll know the song, everyone in the world knows the song. And then in a year, it's like they can't sell shows because maybe they just had that one song that was getting pushed out. I don't know. It's, it's a weird world.

I feel lost in it all the time. That's why, dude, I, like, I've deleted some of social media. Any, like, a country account out there, I pretty much have just unfollowed. Why? I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, it's just overwhelming. It's just too much. What's the, what's the sensation that you feel when you get exposed to that, when you were getting exposed to that stuff?

Uh, I mean, my sensation, it's not like I'm, like, getting anxious or stressed about it. It's more of just, like, dude, I got to have a life outside of, like, everything. Like, Instagram used to be like, oh, what are my friends posting? And now it's just, like, like, like ad ad promotion promotion oh there's my buddy you know let me scroll through that and it's just it just gets or like when people are like reviewing other country artists and it's like these people that hide behind us it's just weird and I'm like like obviously it's good for the music industry

it gives a lot of eyes but as someone that's in the industry it's like I'm trying to separate a little bit my life and my work which I feel like I've done a really great job on like again I'm not I'm not like very social media forward. Like there, I mean, we have an album coming out, so I've kind of been trying to, I'm like trying to post more. But like, I don't know. I don't know. I don't, you know, it gets lost out there a lot of times anyways. And it's just, it's just a lot.

It's another element of what we were talking about before that as you become successful, your ability to do the things that made you successful become harder to access. In order for art to imitate life, you have to live a life. this is why comedians as they get bigger and bigger all of their acts are about airports and dinners and shows and hotels because that's all that they know because they're now a big touring act every single weekend they're away playing two or three shows

maybe they're matinee and all of their friends are in their industry as well and before you know you go what is the wellspring that I'm drawing from and this is the same for anybody you're a marketer you're a branding person you're trying to come up with really interesting insight for a new campaign for a client that you work for off your own company that you run or whatever. Where are you drawing that from if all that you're consuming is just derivative work of other

people talking about the same thing? Well, I'm big in the branding industry. It's very important that I spend time at the conference. Okay, so you as a marketing guy, spend all of your time talking to marketing guys about marketing, where is the new inspiration coming from? You used to be the person that you would market to. Like, I used to be the guy that I would want to be like, I would want Dylan to be a fan of Dylan, right? Like, I'm trying to, I'm, like, I think this guy would love this game. Same thing with

the show. Yeah, and now it's like, again, like, even like, like you said earlier, how can you tell what's a good song and what's something that's been pushed? I'm like, I think I can tell, but. You might have been finessed as well. Yeah, maybe I had because, you know, and then I start to believe certain things, right, where, again, like, you just kind of keep pushing the line back of like, oh, I hate, I don't like how they promoted that or whatever. And then your next record comes out and you're like, well, do we need to? I need to play that. Yeah, I don't know.

It's such a good way to put it. I've just, yeah, the farther, I guess you could say quote unquote, the most successful you get and the more away from where you started, yeah, you got to find time to get back. I think Miley Cyrus might have said that one time in an interview was just like, she required. certain time off the road so she can just just live like just off she's like I just have to live a little bit so yeah where does your process usually start is it like a line the melody and emotion it'll be it'll be stuff like okay like I don't know I'll be on the couch Julia will be watching TV or something like that we'll be watching something and I sing jibbers Like, I'll try to find a melody that I think is, but...

But I'm not saying anything. And eventually, maybe, like, a word will come to me that it feels very thought-provoking or something, you know? Like, okay, headed back to Austin when I played earlier, I think it was kind of that line. Like, I knew where I wanted to go, but I didn't have anything. And that just started with, again, me on the couch, probably like 30 minutes.

not because I'm trying to write a song, but it's because I'm just noodling. Like, I don't know, I just like doing it. So I started just, or, and I'll look at joy like, that sounds cool. She's like, yeah, I like that. And I'll like, you know, and then you just kind of start gibberish forming consonants and vowels

until they become a word. Hang on, so the writer's room is you, whatever bullshit's on TV. Yeah. And presumably now the kid. Yeah. who's just like flailing in the background. Yeah.

Right. So the difference between this and the Nashville engine, a little bit different. Yeah, very. But that's why like, and again, I have nothing against those guys. They're very talented in their own. It's incredible what they can do. But it just doesn't, I can't do it. That's like I said.

Have you tried? Have you tried to be in the, like the engine? No. No. I've, the closest I've come to that is like, I write with my brother or like multi-instrumentalist Colton. And even then, it's just different. It's a whole different way of writing.

I can't say if I like it more or less. Like, I still think me on my couch in my living room, usually at night, is like, that's where I get the stuff I like. But then my brother has a song that he wrote called Rambling, and it's on the album. It's actually the title of the album, Rambling. Excuse me. And it's like one of the best songs on the album. Like, it's written so cool. And all I did was write like the chorus and a little, like, melody for the chorus.

Can I hear about it? Yeah. He's way better at playing it on guitar, so I'm probably going to butcher it. Also, I haven't played it in so long. Jeez. Listen to the wind. Calls me by name. Same old dirt from where I was raised.

I ain't no rampant ought to cause all this pain. Listen to the wind. Listen to the wind. Listen to the wind. It calls me by now. Like, I don't know. It's a beautiful song. I butchered it.

Sorry, Blake, he's probably listening. He's like, you messing up my song bad. But yeah, no, he does this, like, finger-picking style that, like, I just can't even do. He's a way better guitar player than I am. But this is so cool. Like, that's the stuff that I love. Like, I'm not... I was early on, but especially, like, now, like, I'm very open to collaboration.

and I'm not as like sacred about every word's got to be mine. Like I, you know, I'm very writing is my passion, almost more than singing. So like, you know, I'm very particular of like what I want the songs to say and sound like and I don't know, I just like, I like writing.

Would you ever do it for someone else? I think so, but it's maybe. I don't think I could write, I don't think I could write a song for someone else that I think that I could sing. because I just want to sing it. The supplement industry is full of products making claims that they can't back, which is why I'm such a massive fan of Momentus.

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okay, right? I gestured to a guitar, hey, you know, explain how he did. He looked at it. He was I don't know, I played that thing. No way. Well, he was like, I fucking, it's not my, it's not my bag. I'm just here to do the thing. Yeah. But he was telling me about how he'd taken all of his time off, five years maybe, this big break away from producing any, publishing any music himself. And he just wasn't fussed. He had this altercation, pretty public altercation, I think, with his label, didn't want to, I'm not going to play the game, just going to make music for other people, and this would be great.

And he's just creating banger after banger. And I said, well, how did you know that you wanted to get back into making music again? He said, well, when I had my stack of tracks to show whichever artist was coming in, like little demos and stuff that I'd cut together for them, I have a little listen to, I'd find myself, you know, going down, going down. And then I'd double tap over the top of a couple of them. And he was like, that one's for me. And he could hear in the back of his mind this bit of almost kind of a selfishness,

or maybe a bit more swagger or kind of ownership coming back in because he wanted to do that. But yeah, I think about a lot of my friends that are writers. You know, they do versions of ghost writing for people and they'll shape ideas. And then sometimes they'll come up with the synthesis of an idea. and every so often they put out one, they feel a little bit of grief that they didn't get to put it under their own name and the same goes for comedy writers.

All of the roasts that you see, every big roast that you see online, a lot of comedians now are opening up in the caption of their Instagram post if they put one of these huge big clips up, they completely rips. They put the credits in that of all of the writers that have contributed.

I'm right here, right, Jared? Because I always thought it was, like, I always thought it was like rap and comedy. Like, the country was like the country and pop were like they had riders. But I thought, yeah, I thought like rap, comedy was more like, you are what you write. No, I mean, what percentage of comedians now touring comedians do you think are using, just off the top of your head, what percentage of touring comedians do you think are doing their entire sets? Less than 10%? No way.

That is crazy. At the roasts, I would probably guess. probably a lesson. It's fucking armies of people to put these together. I mean, you'll even hear them call it out now. Shane at the Espies

just gave a line and he said, that wasn't mine, I didn't write that one. He's calling out the meta of the whole engine process. And yeah, I saw another roast that came out a couple of days ago and the fucking Instagram

captions 10 lines long. Crazy. Like writers and then other contributors, you know, it's got the dog in there. Like everybody's kind of like you could say. You could say the writers room. It's good. It's not Nashville credits or else your kid would be like tapping you up saying, hey, I was in the room when you wrote that. Yeah. Yeah. You were my 33. Yeah. Yeah. Dude, it's wow. Yeah. I don't know. I think what you said earlier, I take ownership. Yeah. And I try. I don't think I'm a very egotistical person. But the one thing I think I do like take pride in the most is probably the, the, words and it's just I don't know and also just if somebody I'm trying to think like if someone came up to me with just an absolute amazing song and it was like do you want to sing this I've never

had that I've never had that except for Blake my brother with rambling and I was like that's a no brainer let's put that on the album maybe it feels a little different that it's come from so close down yeah yeah and I guess maybe or even or even if it's a person that's just like a really great song ride and like I have this song when you sing it I'm like cool I can't you know Let's do it. I'll do it. What about in reverse? What about you writing for someone else? Again, I think it's the ownership thing. Like, I think if I write a song, I think is just so good.

I almost get to the point where, like, if I have a chorus and like a verse, and all I need is like a little bridge and I'm almost like, I'm sorry. Like, I really don't want help with this. Like, I want to own it. I want this to be like, yeah, I want to complete my thought. So that's a really interesting point. And I've found this with writing that, there is always, at least now in the world of writing,

and maybe increasingly it's going to start creeping in in the world of music, the contribution of AI. So I've got this idea that I'm playing with at the moment, have a friend, and he bumped into an ex of his a little while ago, and he made the decision that he didn't want to be in a relationship anymore, a good while back. And he was certainly really done the work, spent a lot of time thinking about whether or not he wanted to leave,

decided to leave. Saw her gets completely knocked sideways, just bumps into a randomly and his head's in a whole spin. And he was saying, I can't work out how I was so certain at the time and so regretful now. And there's an idea from psychology that's called the fading affect bias. And what it says is that bad memories fade with time, but good ones don't tend to. And that's great because it means we have a psychological immune system. It protects us from being still at the mercy of some horrible thing that happened in our past.

Your dog dies when you're 10, but when you're 15, it doesn't sing quite so much. Hooray for that. You have a psychological immune system. You distance yourself, you distract yourself, you have reframes. Tragedy plus time equals comedy. Yeah. Is about as close to an algorithm that psychology's got.

So bad things fade with time. Good things tend not to so much. And in fact, sometimes bad things can kind of become funny. You can have a tragic situation that becomes funny in future. But one of the weird side effects of this, as you get a little bit older, is that you assume wisdom compounds with AIDS. As I get older, I know more. But in matters of emotion, as you get older, you're just further from the evidence.

Yeah. So what he had encountered was a situation where a future version of him had less information than a previous version of him. The person that was closer to the emotion understood what it felt like to not fully be in this relationship, to be uncertain, to be sat on the couch and not have anything to talk about, to always be going to bed, worried about whether or not who's making the right decision. and the version of him now isn't more experienced that further from the evidence.

And I was like, fuck, I love the fading affect bias. I've got this story from my friend, sent him this series of texts, and I was like, trust that the previous version of you was stewarding the future version of you appropriately. Like, do you trust that you had your best interest in mind? That's agree.

At the time. Yeah. And I've been fucking fighting with this idea for ages. and yesterday is my writing day, Sunday's writing day. So I'm sitting down and I've got fucking a thousand, and it only needs to be 500 words.

It needs to be a short little essay, snappy, that basically what I've just said, a little bit more formed. And I've got 1,000, 2,000 words of just like bullshit. And I'm like, I can throw this into chat GPT,

put it on deep research and it'll take my words and it'll put them together, put them into a flow, maybe it'll tell me a story about Charles Darwin and it'll be done. Yeah. And I knew that it,

if I did that, I would get the essay out today. It didn't but shock horror for the people that subscribed to the newsletter. It didn't go out today. Something else, I put something else up that was easier for me to write. The reason that I didn't do it was that that idea will be concretized for the rest of time. That will be the reference that I use for whatever the name is I come up with it or the story, the way that it's formed, the examples I use, and they stick in my mind. And I'll always know that it wasn't me that did it.

I'll always know that it wasn't me that put the fucking finishing garnish on the dish. I did all of the hard work and there was this bit at the end. And I wonder whether that might be ego. I think it probably could be ego that I'm not. But I also think it's like this, it's this, you see where the world is going a little bit with it. I mean, you can't even open your phone without it just begging to be like, let me do it for you. It can't even, like, someone will email you and I haven't even read it. Do you want me to respond to it on your behalf?

Yeah, I had to turn it off on my phone. It was like summarizing my messages. And I'm like, what? I'm just going to read it. Like, hey, I got an email, reply. How about this reply? And it's this whole reply. And I think we're in a day, at least I am.

I am, it's like this yearning to be like, it's so great to work your mind. You have to try to work your mind. Because, dude, I feel like there's days that go by when I'm on tour. I'm on autopilot. I'm not doing anything beneficial. I get tired. I'm just on my phone. I'm doom scrolling.

And like, I'm like, I'm getting dumber by the day. Like, I just, like, I'm not. Getting cognitively fast. Yeah. And I'm not. Yeah. I'm not exercising my mind. Like I'm not,

I'm not trying to make it this big thing where I'm like, you know, God, exercise my, whatever. But yeah, I think I just yearn for having this, having that stamp.

And like, it's such an accomplishment. Like, growing up as a kid, like, that's why so many people are against participation trophies, right? Like, I'm in there myself.

It's like against it. I'm just, there's not a better feeling than when you do get it. earn the win. Earn the win. Instead of being like, we're all winners, it's like, no, you wrote a bad song, it's bad. But I promise, in two years when you write that song,

and you know you did it and you crushed it and you put it online and people resonate with it and you think that there just resonated with it because it's a different, no, it's because you failed and failed and failed and you made the right song. And that is like, that's the whole, I don't know, I feel like that's almost just the point of everything. Like it's the payoff.

Like, if you just write AI the rest of your life, like there's, I don't know, There's no, there's no, like, highs and lows in that. You're just very, yeah, I don't know. Does that make sense? There's a line from Mark Manson that I've been fucking obsessed with this year, and it speaks to this AI thing. Do hard shit, not because it's fun,

but because the win actually means something. You bled for it, you broke for it, you earned it. Easy wins are forgettable. Hard ones change you. That's the point. Yeah. It's like, that's everything. And the more that I think about that line,

Easy winds of forgettable, hard ones change you. That's the point. Yeah. I'm like, oh, that's the choice that everybody's going to make when it comes to AI. And it's going to be in small ways as well. I've got to write a letter, a thank you letter to somebody saying, I really appreciate you taking care of the kids this weekend or the dog walker on her birthday or whatever. Like, do people care about receiving a card or do they care about the fact that you went to the effort of having to write it by hand?

one of the strange things about, I don't know whether you guys have got Moon Pig or Magpie, they're like card sending services, but you sort of type in what you want. And it's very nice to receive a card. Like it's kind of right to receive a card. It's at least twice as nice one it's been written by hand. As opposed to something that's got printed off on the internet, somebody typed it in and it got shipped to your door. It's like, no, go to the fucking post office. Because yeah, it's not like, it's not like I receive a letter in the mail. And I'm like, this this 299 piece of paper is what I've been looking for no it's like okay they put in like they're just showing you love from afar because they can't they're showing you ever from afar so yeah it's like

and again I'm not saying that like AI doesn't have its place in certain parts of the world like obviously I mean it's just technological advance like for example I don't I don't go hand wash my clothes and hang them up on the clothes line outside of everything you know what I'm like yeah I'm like I got to live hard you know because like obviously we advance but there comes a line where it's a line where it's it's like, all right, yeah, I can, especially, I think where I, the line crosses for me is when it's like artistic or sentimental, right? Or I'm sure there's other stuff, but artistic, it's like the whole point of art is that it's not perfect and it feels like something only humans can do, right? So it feels very natural. And then what the sentimental stuff, that's the whole point of, like you said, writing a letter.

I'm not writing you a letter just so you can have the piece of paper. I'm writing you a letter. and putting something in here that I think is going to have an emotional effect on you, just like I'm having an emotional effect writing it. And I'm doing it, and I'm not like saying that writing letters hard, but I don't know. I think we're saying the same thing. It's harder than putting the prompt into chat GPT and getting it to do it. It's better than just checking the box. This episode is brought to you by Whoop.

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The decision that everybody's going to make is, okay, do I want to do the harder thing? And it's weird because do hard things is kind of this tagline that everybody likes to lean into. The 4.30 a.m. cold plunge and the runs and the weightlifting and you stick into your diet. But the decision of do I want to do the harder thing or the easier thing is going to encroach into every area of life. It's going to encroach into whether or not you want to order. If you one-click order flowers that goes to your Mrs's door because she's having a hard day, or if you drive to the fucking florist and pick them up and hand deliver them to her, there is just a, there is a explicit real world difference,

a tangible difference between those two things. But as things, convenience begins to encroach on the rest of life, everybody's going to have to make that decision for more and more and more stuff. Oh, yeah. Like, yeah, you're just saying it's not, I saw this one picture where it was like, it started as sit-down restaurant, it turned into drive-thru, and now it's Uber Eats. You know, it was movies, and then it's YouTube,

and now it's YouTube shorts. Like, it just keeps going. Yeah, and it just keeps expanding. It's derivative. It becomes distilled down. Yeah, and it's like, even, I mean, I find myself, I used to never do this, but I found myself literally this week. And I was watching Instagram real, and I was watching it.

And I was like, let me hold down. Let me go times two speed here. You know, and I'm like, what am I doing? I just, I need to speed fuck myself with this algorithm harder. And it's like, it's like you're saying, it's not just that. That might not be the bad thing. I don't know, maybe you're on a bathroom break and you're like, I don't know, get to the point.

You know, I get that. But it starts creeping into everything. Because, yeah, 20 years down the road, you know, with a musician. And they're like, I've got to pay the bills. We need a new song. I just don't have it in me. Write a song. It's pretty good.

It's going to sell. Like, what's stopping people from doing that? If it's just every year, it's just one extra thing. You know? Well, you know, think about how songs are recorded now. You go into a studio. You can play a song like pluck by pluck and just chop that together. And then you got the perfect take, the perfect take. Whereas it would have been, what, 50 years ago, a single fucking room? Yeah, because they were also on tape. So they, I mean, they legitimately had to make a decision right there in the moment and say, hey, either we're run out of tape or, hey, it's literally not worth our time to go. They have like exacto knives. They would have to cut these things together, splice it physically, tape it up,

run it through the machine. Like it's, and now it's just, yeah, just hit it again. You're fine. So that's why you hear on so many of these old records, like an Elton John record or something like that,

you'll hear like in the background, like a hat fell on the keys, but it was a great take. And they're like, we can't keep the hat in. Keep it. Like, you'll hear like the little key hit. Like, you know,

and they just keep it in there. And it kind of, gives records life a little bit. Like there's certain things, like I think in the records that I make, I think, like, my, I think the imperfections almost make it perfect sometimes. And it's just, you know, as soon as you say imperfections give something a degree of life, the imperfections then begin to be engineered. Oh, so, everything becomes marketable, right?

The authenticity, the stripped backness. Well, oh, this great story about Elton John, we must have a hat. Has anyone got a hat in the room? we can make the hat full at the right time. It's very, so, okay, and look, whoever's listening to this, I don't know if any Nashville producers is looking to this.

I'm probably not talking about you. I've had a lot of great experiences in the whole national production thing. But there are a lot of that, a lot in that setting that it's very performative, like you said. It's very,

it's like they want it to be natural. bad that they're going to make it natural. Does that make sense? Like it's going to be... Engineered natural. Artificially natural, like you're saying. Yes, artificially natural. And it's like, what's the craziest thing? Get your car keys. And, you know, that's how they did it. You know, and that's how they did it on whatever it's called and no, we need to be living in the... And I'm like...

I think it's just this sort of commodification of everything. And as if it's less gate kept by technology or by expertise, it means that more people are going to be tempted to do it. The problem is going to be, can we remove drudgery from people's lives without taking away the stuff that actually matters to them? Without taking away, not just like you want to be involved in this thing, but it is genuinely better for you to take a longer route round, to take a higher friction route from where you are to the outcome of this thing because it's going to be better for you. Maybe the work will be worse. Yeah. But the win will mean something and it won't be as forgettable. You know, yeah, it's strange. I guess it's weird in music because for such a long time there's been teams of writers and, you know, bands even.

It's like, okay, so you said the lyric and maybe the fucking guy that wrote the lyrics left. It's like a 10-year-old song. Yeah. And the guy, maybe he's dead. Yeah. You know, well, he's not even a part of the band anymore, but we're still singing it and it's ours. We get to own it. So it's, there's been more fluidity, but that also, I think, means it could be a slippery of slope.

Oh, yeah. Mastering. What are you fucking, you must be able to one-click master. track. Not as well as an elite audio engineer now, I'm guessing, but you must be able to one-click master tracks now with... For sure. I mean, and again, like, some of it is good. So I want to say, like, I want to be, it's important, I say that some of it is good because there's also a lot less gatekeepers nowadays in music. It is so sick that I can write a song called, like Cole, that I believe in, and I can record it on my laptop. I put it out, and it does better than 90,

of all the money-pushed multi-songwriter songs. I love it. That's awesome. I love it. That's great. I think that is a great side of like entry access. Yes, yes. But like you said, democratized it so that you can compete. Exactly. But you're right. Like it's a slippery, because as soon as people go, that works. Hold on. And it's like, hold on, we're the millionaires. Where's gossip AI? How do I make? Yeah. Dude, but it's like, that works. it's only a matter of time. Maybe that's what I'm trying to get. I'm not trying to sound like bleak.

Everything that's good. It's only, you know, it's only managed. Yeah, but it kind of feels like that like in the industry. There are thousands of people working every single day to find the next new thing. So when you have something like pull or something like,

I don't know, anyone else in this industry that has a song, people are going to be like, what did they do? Why did it work? How do we replicate it? Yep. And how do we just dump a truckload of money behind it?

Maybe have it. Did you see that, was it a variety piece about geese? You know, that band? Yeah. Yeah. I didn't see the piece where in a moment. It was like a big article about how the engine, the clipping engine and stuff was behind that band. I think the band were pretty successful beforehand.

And then it's just, you know, you really put the fucking fuel nitrous booster button on. Between where was this song originated? Who wrote the lyrics? Because is it an AI song if AI helped you to craft the lyrics? And then you sang them? I think so. But my point is, like, at what point, how far back do you go? Okay, so I'm really struggling with rhymeers block.

It's an app for iPhone. I'm really struggling with a word that rhymes with small but fits this. Oh, I'll just go in. It's like at what point where do you draw the line? That's a great question. And as technology begins to democratize it, the only place that you have this, that you can make this decision is my own kind of moral gauge for what I want on the other side of it.

Yeah, I think I do that. I mean, there's a great area, but I think it's one of those things where it's like, you know, you know what I'm saying? It's one of the, like, I feel like. The ick radar. Yeah, and it's, it's,

I mean, I even, it's, I'm not trying to get like too deep, but I think this goes with a lot of things. I think there are people that are just going to always push the envelope of be like, well, what am I allowed to do? Like, always trying to be like, how much wrong can I do

before I get in trouble? And I try not to look at it that way. I try to be like... Because you don't immoralize it. Yeah. And I also just like, I don't have... I don't think I have that thing in me where I'm like, how much can I squeeze out of this

with AI to help me write this song without people thinking that it's AI? And it's like, I think if you're doing that, like you know what you're doing. But I think if you're... If you're a kid at home and you're trying to, like, you wrote... this song and you're like, dang, what's that word? Open up the dictionary. Open up like a rhyming

website or something. And you find you like, oh, cool. That kid has no intention of being like, you know, oh. This fucking word was written by. Yeah, like that, that's his song. You know, like I, because he's, I don't think that that, that's pushing the off. Like, I don't know. I don't, I don't know how to, like, word this correctly. But I just think, I think, you know, you know. Like if or do I mean like there's also the debate about you know producers and mixers and engineers and stuff like you said like what if they use AI to kind of like help them with the key yeah and it's like yeah okay I you know as long as the meat potato you know hey there's an argument to be made that as soon as you've got doors and you're like hey back in the day dude

we has to take a fucking lead take it out of that synth put it into that so you want to chain those things together, go and get your foot. Yeah, it's like, is using an electric piano, you know, so yeah, again, I think it comes down to, like, you just know in your gut, like, you're, you're either making music or something else is making the music for you. And it's like, I don't know. It seems like, you take a very sort of emotionally informed approach to music. It's quite self-deprecating, sort of stock sometimes, I think, is that fair? Yeah. I think it kind of depends. Like, and I also think it really changes the mood of the song itself. Like, I don't know, I find those songs can be easier to write.

I feel like when I write my happy songs, they come off cheesier. When I feel like it's the same level of lyrical writing. Dude, and it's also, yeah, it also, if I put, if I put Cole on like an EDM track, I guarantee people would be like, they wouldn't really care about what the leadership. It's like, doesn't feel sad. It's like, have you seen people that play, like, ballad piano, like the Drake? and Josh theme song. It sounds like a beautifully written song

and you're like, it's kind of deep. It's kind of a sat, you know, whatever, but it's like, it's all how it's framed. I think, I mean, I think of like Jason Isbell when it comes to this, but if you put his type of lyricism into his type of guitar playing and his voice in the raspiness, like, it's going to come off that way, whether it's intention to be or not.

Or then you can go listen to like a Turnpike song who I think is some of the best writers in the world, but maybe they're four on the floor and it's kind of a more upbeat groove but he's talking about how like my dad's gonna, my ass, my member back in this county like it might be a sad feeling song,

whatever it is, I'm not trying to say that song specifically, but, and it feels upbeat, you're like, oh, I can get down and this is party, you know, it's a good time. So I forget the lyrics or remember. Yeah, I think it's, yeah, I think it's sometimes the way that it's played on the guitar

you're playing different minor chords and stuff like that. But I like to lean into that. Like, I feel like, I love listening to music like that. Even when I'm like happy, I'll be, I'll be the happiest guy in the world. And I'm like, let me put on a sad one. Let me put on a slow one.

Why do you think male sadness is dominating modern country? I think, I think two things. I think for one, um, I think it's the only place where I feel like a lot of guys, a lot of males, um,

feel like they're allowed to talk about it. Like without being without, like, for example, if I went up to like my buddies or in our group chat and said how I felt in Cole, it would come off of like, like, brother, get it together. What are you talking about? But you put country music behind it and it's like, dang, that's a beautiful song.

I actually connect with that, but I'm not going to like say I do. You know, it feels like it's guys, almost like a dude therapy session. And I think that's why so many people write about it is that it connects really deeply. It almost like, it says the feelings that a lot of these dudes, I think, feel. but they're like blue collar fellas they're like, I'm not telling, I'm not telling nobody how I feel, but like you do,

at our shows, the people who are like heart and soul singing it out there in the crowd are the dudes. Arms around each other. I promise they would leave that show and they would never tell each other about their feelings, but they come to the show

and they're looking at each other screaming these lyrics and it's like, yeah, it's like cathartic. It's like, it's like a thing. So I think, I don't know, I think it just comes off well. It's like the way to do it as a dude.

I wonder if it's still being cool. I wonder if it's a weird comment on masculinity that men feel comfortable seeing their emotions reflected in lyrics, but uncomfortable exposing them in daily life. Like this guy has said this thing that I feel, he's put words. So I'm happy to sing it. Yeah. I'm happy to sing it at his show. Yeah.

And I'm still, it feels like there is room for that. It's a really interesting sort of balance between those two things. Yeah. Yeah, and it almost feels like sometimes the opposite for women. Like it almost feels like female songs are empowering and male songs are about vulnerability. Yeah, but but and it's, and it's the opposite too where it's like when women sing about vulnerability, it's almost like the male crowd is like, here we go. Another, you know, another female country is talking about a breakup. But it's like when guys do it, it's like brother, you know, I got so it is.

It kind of feels like that's that's the male outlet sometimes. is like through music and then I feel like the girl outlet again I'm I'm not trying to be the guy speaking on behalf of all the women out there I would never do that but um yeah it kind of feels like it's the opposite where it's you know I thought I don't know maybe I'm wrong I thought uh I sit in parks by Kelsey ballerini was such a fascinating fucking concept for a song I haven't heard that oh dude so it's her talking about um a relationship that she used to be in and she didn't go through with it because her partner wanted to have kids and she wanted to focus on her career. And then a few years later, she's sitting in the park on a weekend, looking at this family playing with the kid.

And she's asking, have I made a mistake? Have I made a choice that I can't reverse? So I take my Lexa Pro and I puff on my vape and the album's due in March and my next tour is coming up and my friend's about to have a kid and I'm worried. I miss this thing. And that was really, like, fucking raw, like, very, very complex. I guess, yeah, maybe I might have missed the mark because also, like, Pinn House by Kelsey Ballerone, like, that's also a great song. And it's like kind of about a relationship.

So, yeah, maybe I'm wrong. But I just think that you're right. I think that the, especially a lot of the country music tropes, maybe that's the reason. Maybe that's one of the reasons why. That if you hear a guy talking about vulnerability, it feels rarer. Yeah. And it's now being done through this vehicle, which is music. And it's almost like the tortured hero.

The only way that he can even open his heart is to do it to a chord. You know, it's like that's the excuse that's being given. But it's also a defense mechanism. It's a defense mechanism because if guys aren't comfortable about talking about it, normally, this frames it in an artistic and romantic way that just creates a little bit of distance. I don't actually need to show myself in the same way as you said yourself. And it's accepted. So I open up in the group chat, it's different to what's going to happen if I open up in a song.

The kind of thing that blows my mind is how many guys would love to have that outlet but aren't singer-songwriters and how difficult it is to find something else. Because I think, yeah, writing songs, maybe poetry, but that's perhaps even more inaccessible than some singer-songwriting. essaying micro blogging stuff on substack and you can write in the third person and that feels that's probably a little bit more accessible but fuck me beyond that it's like you're into the world of YouTube and conversations with a therapist yeah so it's I know it's a I guess like that that might be like the dudes that come to those shows you know that's like it's group therapy

it's like man I can't sing it but I'm gonna try it not you know in or get in the car or do it or um yeah drink and then talk to the body's like, you know. If you're going to spend an hour in the gym, you might as well look hot and feel comfortable while you're doing it. And honestly, who wants to be in the background of a TikTok is highlight reel dressed like a chump? GymShark makes some of the best men's and women's training gear on the planet. And something that I realized a few years ago is that when you actually like what you're

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They're high quality. You get 30 days of free returns globally with global shipping and a 10% discount sitewide. So get that 10% discount by going to the link in the description below. Are heading to jim.sh slash modern wisdom and using the code modern wisdom 10 at checkout. That's jim.s.m.S.m. Modern Wisdom and Modern Wisdom 10 at checkout. What emotions have you found to be the hardest to write about? Ooh. Probably like happy, I think. And not in a way it's like, I mean, I can't write about being happy because I can. But I feel like it doesn't come off the tongue as easy as like a sadder,

more heartfelt song, I feel like I can really paint that picture versus like when I'm singing a song. And maybe like, I mean like happy. I don't mean like love. I feel like I can write really well about love. I feel like I can write about my wife like a lot. I have. I've written a ton of songs about her. And I feel like those are some of my favorites I've ever written. But I'm talking about just straight up this one's going to come in come on in the bar. I struggle with that. I don't know why. I think some people nail it and I've just, I can't, it's not always there. I mean, I spoke to Dan and Shay about this.

Luke Combs, fucking unbelievable. Like, got as much swagger as it's possible for a white guy to have. Like, he's the blackest white guy that you can think of. And, but when you think about the, that sort of arc over the last, what, decade or so of his, of his songwriting, you go from very sort of tortured, uncertain, tumultuous, there's crises and now there's a bit of me that wants him to smoke some crack there's a bit of me that wants him to like have that friction again in life because things are going well and my son misses me when I go away but I do come back and like

my dad's getting older and that's going to be hard when it doesn't happen and he's still fucking ripping it yeah but how much harder you have to work to make a banging song when you don't have that friction in your life yeah I mean, you're almost beginning to concoct stories or you're hearing things that have happened to other people or, you know, confabulating ideas and tales of an imagined world, a different world that you could have lived in. Yeah. Right.

This is what I could have been. It's like your life's so good that you have to imagine one you don't have in order to be able to create. Because for some reason, people seem to resonate a lot with that pain and that vulnerability. And again, if art is imitating life and your life's going really fucking well. Mm-hmm. what are you going to be singing about? Yeah, what's your sad song?

Show me your pain. Yeah, and again, I don't think it's the worst thing in the world, too, when people like, because I also love being a storyteller. I love writing songs about, I have a song called Lonnell Cowboy, which is about, you know, a guy going and getting cheated on, killing the guy and on the run. And I'm like, I never did that. But I think I love the storytelling aspect.

And that comes from, I think, kind of more like that Western kind of swing old, like Marty Robbins, like the Gunfighter Bowman. and everything. There's like a whole album of just like ballads written about like gun fighters and stuff. So it's like fables in a way, mythology. Yeah. Yeah. But then there also gets to like, yeah, you start getting into what feels like it could be a real story.

Like obviously no one thinks that I went and shot this guy and ran away. But, you know, when I sing a song about maybe a stranger that I see that I'm like, I'm just going to make up what I think his life is like and tell that story. I think that's also sick I think that's really cool Do you know where Jolene came from The Dolly Parton song? I don't know

Maybe I don't think so I'm pretty sure It's written about a bank teller Bank assistant That flirted with her husband And she didn't use the name of the bank teller But found a lady at a party Who had the name Jolene

And placed the name of the lady The story came from a beautiful bank teller who flirted with Dolly's husband, Carl Dean, shortly after they got married. Dolly said the woman was tall redhead and paid Carl love attention. Carl enjoyed the attention. Dolly joked that he seemed to spend an awful lot of time at the bank for someone with so little money, became the seed for the song. It was more of a playful thing.

The name Jolene came from a totally different person, an eight-year-old red-headed fan who asked Dolly for an autograph. She thought Jolene was such a beautiful name that she told the girl she was going to use. She wrote Jolene, and I will always love you. That's not right. She didn't write, I will always love you. It was working nine to five. she didn't write i will always love you did she that's yeah did she yeah that's her song that's her

song and then Whitney houston sang it on what was what was the movie and then and then i think dolly was i think dolly probably said like that's your song yeah like it's no that was yeah that's that's that's that's that's that's dolly song jolene and i will always love you in the same day talk about crazy yeah yeah yeah fuck you with you fucking 25 minute cold yeah yeah get on her love yeah she's like let me just write some of the two two absolute bangings but yeah um again, you've concocted this story. You've taken, you know, one element from the other. Oh, and then I guess it was inspired. So Linda Ronstadt sang it, every song that ever she sings is just better. That's so cool.

Whitney's record became one of the best selling singles world time. 14 consecutive weeks at number one. Pretty sure that this has just been knocked off the top by Ella. Really? Yeah. because it's Whitney Houston and Mariah Carey, who both had the 14, and I'm pretty sure that 15 is now... Ella. Yeah.

It's crazy. Fucking wild. That's so sick. I wonder whether there's any emotions that you want to sing about, but you don't think that the market has an appetite for. Hmm. I mean, okay, here's a great example, and I know a lot of artists struggle with this. I'll play an acoustic song in my back porch, and I'll play it a certain way, but I know the studio is different. Studio version's different. It's got some drums, has a little, you know,

slide and I be in it. It's just kind of more upbeat. And then you'll put out that version. And everyone's like, just, just don't change it. Give me the poach version. Give me the port. You know, and it's like, I think you have to try to expand your sound. Like I was watching that Billy Joel documentary. So cool, by the way, if you haven't seen it. It's like five hours long. It's incredible. His life is just, it's what the heck. But he always made it a point to change the way his sound was. Bob Dylan did the same thing where you went to the Newport Folk Festival. And it was like, you know, get your harmonica out. He's like, I want to play an electric guitar. And it's, it's, it's, uh, you feel like you don't want to get trapped in like your own trope.

Like, I'm not trying to get trapped in this like, I'm an accoustic guy. I'm going to sing about how hard my life is. And, but you also want to service the people who listen to your music the most. Like, you know that's what they want. And it's like, yeah, it's this, it's like this push and pull thing. So I feel like, I feel like I've done the best job that I can. Like, I don't really put too much pressure on. I'm still making music that I love. I really not, I don't try to overthink it. But yeah, I know a lot of artists that fall into that thing where it's like, I want to put out different music, but I just know it's probably not going to do well. And if I do it, if I put out this song, I'll probably do a lot better because that's what I'm known for. That's what people want to hear.

You know the idea of audience capture? Have you heard of that? Okay, so it's from My World's content creation, YouTube. You test the ground with a bunch of different content. Maybe start to pick up a little bit of speed. And then you find something that hooks a bit. You start talking about politics, but you talk about it from a libertarian lens and you're maybe a bit more bombastic than you used to be. Oh, wow. They like that. Oh, well, I've been rewarded for that. I'll go again. And you get a bit more bombastic. You get a bit more bombastic. Before you know it, you're like peak Alex Jones, you know, sort of shouting and screaming and doing the thing. And you begin to throw red meat to your audience. And instead of creating what you want to create, you give them what you think they want.

Yeah. The problem with it is that you can achieve success with it because you're basically taking audience feedback, which in some ways is important and good. Like movies screen test the versions, right? And they check how, what were people's reviews? Should we change this? But this felt a bit slow.

people don't understand that. So, you know, audience feedback's important. But if you're not careful, especially if you're doing something that's very iterative, over time, your audience doesn't fall in love with you. They fall in love with your projection of what you think they want you to be. Yeah. Yeah. Like this weird reverse puppet thing where the audience has got their hand inside of you doing this. And reliably, every single person that I've seen do it, and there's a bunch of people that have done it in my world and probably tons in yours as well, every single person, eventually has ended up resenting the audience. Yeah.

Because what happens is you contort yourself into this weird shape that you think the audience has rewarded you for. And then if they don't like what you're doing anymore, you feel so aggrieved because you betrayed yourself for an audience that doesn't even want the act that you're playing. Yeah. And it is so, it's so fucking reliable. So that's one side. That's audience capture.

And then Ethan Strauss has got this fucking unbelievable. post where he talks about criticism capture, which is the opposite side of it. So audience capture is this big term for a long time. People do what they think the audience wants. It's the musician who denies himself the move from acoustic to electronic or a total pivot in terms of singing style because he doesn't think that the audience is going to want it. That's your audience capture. Criticism capture is behaving in a way to avoid criticism or front run it from your audience instead. So instead of acting out of encouraging desire, it's acting out of defending against hate. So what are people going to criticize me for doing most likely?

And how do I front run that so that it doesn't happen? So you see this in the same way in my world, people start to caveat a lot. Before they say anything, well, we must remember that they'll do this sort of land acknowledgement, this throat clearing thing beforehand. Or in a different way, people sort of steam out of the gates really aggressive. and they're super ardent and militant and they have no quarter given no no and that's another way to do it. They're sort of pushing people out. They're front running the complaint. They're either making themselves so inoffensive that they don't say anything so that they don't get criticized or they kind of

shadow box this imaginary opponent who doesn't really exist in an attempt to scare off critics. And you see it's so fucking warping. It's just audience dynamics. Reward and pain and people are playing with these two levers in an attempt to try and get as much pleasure and as little discomfort as possible. And it kind of leaves you on eggshells where you're just like, ah, I don't know what to do. Yeah. And it's, dude, especially like nowadays with social media, everything's so instant, that like, I think that messes with artists quite a bit of just the most instant feedback you can have. You'll, you'll walk off a stage, you know, sit in the green room and you're getting tweets or, you know, or you're getting your stories.

And it's, yeah, you know, in with the phones. Yeah, I used to, I don't know. But have you seen, Jerry, can you pull up that video? I want you to show you that there's two videos going back to back that I think are pretty interesting. There's this Morgan Wallen video that's floating around at the moment, which is him in a fucking huge stadium and someone saying, the performance standard for male versus female artists is so different is all I will say.

That's closer to a military reenactment is so much. So anyway, and then look at this. Pull that other video up, Jared. Is it the tape McCray one? Yeah, I mean, it is just... An insane level of... It's the most polished, like... Look at this.

Oh, I'm going to dip myself in literal liquid gold. Oh, my God. Like actual... I'm sorry. Yeah, I mean, that's like the whole, like, the Coachella, like, Justin Bieber, the night after Sabrina thing. Oh, yeah. Dipped in Liquid Golds.

That's in the next set. We're doing that. That's the next album. Well, it's just, I mean, it's different. Like, I've been, I've been to a Morgan show. It also, like, the production is still crazy. Him himself might not be doing. He needs a dance number.

You know what I mean? But, he needs a dance number. I guess, like, it's also, it's also this residency bias thing where people just, they just have to keep doing the next big thing and make it bigger, which, like, in entertainment, that's a good thing. Like, obviously, like, you should be challenged. But, I mean, you go look at the, female acts from like, I don't know, 1950, or even the male acts.

Like, everyone just on a microphone and just doing the same thing. Like, I don't know. But yeah, I guess when did that separation happen? Because, I mean, we used to have like in sync backstreet boys and they were doing full production. Like, when did it become... I mean, MGK's bringing it back. He's got full dance numbers on stage. She's got choreography.

Yeah. But like everything that's new is now old, you know? Yeah. Oh, yeah. It's like, oh, they used to do that. That's cool. Let's bring that back. All right, dude, let round us out.

Give us a little something from the new album, whatever you like the sound of. I'll play a song called Closlon. Should I see this one? Yeah, this one's good. I think this is going to be a single, maybe. I don't know. That's something you could do this afternoon?

No, but I do it on purpose. This is what I'm talking about. Like when I, I, yes, I could choose the singles and have it all on a calendar and rock it and just go. But I don't, again, I think this is something that I probably, I struggle with is kind of the system formula thing. I don't know. Like I would rather go like week by week or like feel it out.

I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. I think it's going to be a single. But again, I also, actually this, and I will, I'll sing it right after this, but this brings you back to a point that we were talking about earlier. about like teasing music and crowdsourcing and being like what song does better like there's a part of me that misses the way of like when an artist puts out an album you don't know what the songs are they've not Waterfall released five in a dance you don't know what the songs are and you

are stoked to dive in yeah and I'm trying to play this middle ground like okay business wise yes we should be teasing songs and you know getting people excited and I'm not saying it's a bad thing. But there's a side of me that's like, man, wouldn't it be great just to give fans just 12 new songs that everyone can be excited for? And you have no idea what it sounds. It might be a whole new sound. Like that's kind of what used to happen. Or like, I don't know, I just think that side of it's cool. Like my favorite thing, I know I brought them up a lot, but Turnpike, when they dropped price of admission. They did no singles. All they did was put up a billboard in the middle of the desert and was like albums out in two weeks. I think that is so

cool. Now, I'm not saying everyone can do that. Algorithmically might not be the most effective way to do it, but it's sick. But yeah, but that's where like as an artist you have to kind of weigh your options between like we said earlier, like what's authentic and at the end of the day, like what is going to get

people this music? Like what's going to pay the bills and do, you know, there's a fine line. So. Unreal. But anyways, this one's called Closeline. I haven't played this one in a while. I'll remember it. That's another thing. I'm bad with lyrics. quick. Oh wait, am I plugged in? Yeah, cool.

Oh, this one's called close on. Making soda on the bed sheets. Make me smell brand new. I'm sleeping in and I'm going out trying not to think too much about you. Don't call me later when my lights are. I know just have you done too soon. Because I know. You're just gonna hang me

So close left on that close line Oh second guessing's always left in this so hard of mine Baby I know You're just gonna hang me Stopping early age to tell me that I'm moving too fast Before you changed your mind I was nothing but a hopeless old love You're just gonna hang me

Oh second guessing's always left in this so hot you're just gonna let's fucking go Dylan gossip ladies and gentlemen dude you rule congratulations new album's that one September 25th yeah so appreciate the heck out of you man yeah thanks for having all right goodbye my beauties dude that was a great time brother thanks so much having calculating route to avoid seeing poverty turn left to bypass the unhoused youth sleeping on the street then keep right to skip by the lines of people waiting for food. Steer clear of the crowded shelter turning people away, then take the next exit. Let's stop looking away and get in the way of rising poverty. Your donations help the United Way

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