Modern Wisdom - “My Autism Keeps Upsetting People” - Vittorio Angelone - #1119

Episode Date: July 4, 2026

Vittorio Angelone is an Irish comedian, writer, and podcaster. Is it autism, or something else? Humor can come from a lot of places: being Irish, being an only child, a little neurodivergence, or all of the above. And if you happen to be all three, you might have the perfect recipe for a comedian. Expect to learn what happened to Vittorio when he visited Nashville, the biggest difference between being an only child and being autistic, why being uncool is the worst kind of cancellation, why it’s so hard to communicate authentically, why goofy male podcasts appeal to women, if there is any hope for AI and much more… Sponsors: See discounts for all the products I use and recommend: ⁠⁠https://chriswillx.com/deals⁠⁠ Get 160+ lab tests for just $365 and save an extra $25 at https://functionhealth.com/modernwisdom Get up to $500 off the Eight Sleep Pod 5 at https://eightsleep.com/modernwisdom Get the brand new Whoop 5.0 and your first month for free at https://join.whoop.com/modernwisdom Get up to $50 off the RP Hypertrophy App at https://rpstrength.com/modernwisdom Get ChatGPT to explore ideas, solve problems, and learn faster at ⁠https://chatgpt.com Timestamps: (00:00) Was Vittorio Actually a Jordan Peterson Fan? (01:29) Did Vittorio Get Spiked by a Redneck? (11:29) The UK’s Superior Sandwich Technology (17:57) How a Late Autism Diagnosis Changed Vittorio (24:54) When Do You Become Responsible for Your Actions? (29:29) The Discomfort of Making Someone Uncomfortable (31:12) How Big Is the Autism Spectrum? (37:55) The Irish Times Article That Went Viral (44:22) UK vs US: Who Has the Best Roasts? (53:49) The Risk of Being Cringe Cancelled (01:06:00) Why You Shouldn’t Hide Your Ambition (01:23:00) Autism or Sociopathy: Where’s the Line? (01:25:33) Trusting Your Gut Can Be So Hard (01:30:09) Why Women Love Comedy Podcasts (01:39:04) Why Chris Is Doing More Hang Episodes (01:44:00) Is This the Most Belfast-Coded Threat? (01:49:32) How Much Would You Sell Your Leg For? (01:56:05) Where to Find Vittorio Extra Stuff: Get my free reading list of 100 books to read before you die: ⁠⁠https://chriswillx.com/books⁠⁠ Try my productivity energy drink Neutonic: ⁠⁠https://neutonic.com/modernwisdom⁠⁠ Episodes You Might Enjoy: #577 - David Goggins - This Is How To Master Your Life: ⁠⁠lnkfi.re/SN-Goggins⁠⁠ #712 - Dr Jordan Peterson - How To Destroy Your Negative Beliefs: ⁠⁠lnkfi.re/SN-Peterson⁠⁠ #700 - Dr Andrew Huberman - The Secret Tools To Hack Your Brain: ⁠⁠lnkfi.re/SN-Huberman⁠⁠ - Get In Touch: Instagram: ⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx⁠⁠ Twitter: ⁠⁠https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx⁠⁠ YouTube: ⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/modernwisdompodcast⁠⁠ Email: ⁠⁠https://chriswillx.com/contact⁠⁠ - Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Maybe you are quite Peterson-pilled, cleaning your room. Listen, I read the 12 Rules for Life book and I found it helpful. Did you really? When I was like 22. Are you an ex- Jordan Peterson fun? I'm so embarrassed. I'm so, like, spiritually, like, I don't know, something about me and my audience would hate the fact that I really found Jordan Peterson very helpful.

And made my girlfriend watch it when I was 22. Be like, look at this guy. Kathy Newman's an idiot. it isn't she? It's terrible. I'm so embarrassed by all of that, but like he was like helpful and informative and I think it was like self-it was self-help really that like 12 Rules for Life book. And I needed that. I needed someone to go fucking come on man, grow up, get your shit together. Do you think that your audience would guess that you were a previous Jordan Peterson Stan? Some of them, some of them I think won't be.

Or like wouldn't be like happy or like maybe they'd be surprised. But I think that's where I like to, like I try to be honest about that stuff. And I like, I would like, I would like to hear someone be like, oh yeah, I found that helpful. And then it went a bit crazy, you know. So I try to be like open about that I was like, I'm still a dumb idiot guy. This is the problem. I write like narrative, thoughtful, thematic standoff shows. But I'm a fucking idiot.

Like, you know what I mean? So it's hard. you got spiked i got spiked in nashville listen allegedly i don't know they were like we could do a toxicology report on you but it costs like x thousand dollars and i was like just give me whatever stops me vomiting right now and i'll be okay but i thought it was like i thought it was just like a really unjust hangover i was in nashville i did a show i went for a couple drinks afterwards and a game of pool and i was like yeah i had a couple drinks And then I remember like getting back to the, or like my friend giving me a lift back to the hotel and me being like, I am fucking trollied right now.

Like when did that happen? And then started playing him like Mongolian throat singing on Spotify, which was like that. I mean, I don't know if that's a symptom of being spiked by a Mongolian. Yeah, maybe. Maybe a Mongolian spiked me. but then I don't remember lots of patches of the evening and I don't remember

getting into the hotel room and like going to bed or whatever and when I woke up my phone was like in the bathroom not plugged in and like all my shit was like all over the hotel room and I woke up and I just thought it was like a really you know when you get a bad hangover but you don't think you deserve it

you're like I didn't I wasn't that's unjust exactly it was like this is not carmically balanced right now so I got up and then I like vomited and I was like god that was pretty bad did a shit also pretty bad

and then I was like come on you just gotta get your shit together like I went to I went full Jordan Peterson I was like I just gotta tidy my room and I'll be okay and then I vomited like once every 30 minutes for like the whole month until I checked out and then I checked out of the hotel and had to go to the toilet in the lobby

and throw up there and I was like this is not this is no hangover I've experienced and I've drank a lot in the past. And so the guy, this guy, Ian, who was, like, filming the show and stuff, he was, like, still in town and he was, like, do you want me to take you to, like, an IV clinic? And I was like, this is the most, like, American shit of all time of, like, go to some weird, like, spa where they just hook, hook up, hook your head.

You're going to wait sage at you, do a sound bowl. And then they were closed. So we were like, oh, shit. So we went to urgent care, which I don't really know what that is. Like, I don't know. American healthcare system is like weird. It's not the emergency room, but it's like a step. It's half A&E.

But it's also beside a burger restaurant. I was like this, this country's fucked. This is where there should be like a barbershop or like, you know, but there's a healthcare facility. So I walked in and I think because I was just being like polite to the woman behind the desk, I was like, oh, hi, blah, blah, blah. She thought you were minimizing how serious it was. She just thought I was like kind of. fine and I like signed in and like just did like persistent vomiting was like my symptom on the thing

and then so I was sat there and like people kept getting called in before me and then at one point that was like oh I'm getting that feeling where I'm going to like throw up again I was like texting my mom at the time and her actual advice was throw up in the lobby because then they'll escalate they'll see you which is like crazy mom advice of like just throw up on the floor Pretty effective. And I didn't do that, but mainly because the bathroom was like right beside the reception desk. It's pretty egregious. If the bathroom is within sight.

Exactly. To just go, bah, help. So I went in. Yeah. So I went into the bathroom and made a bit of the hollow balloon out of it to the point where I was like, okay, they can definitely hear it. Oh, you hammed it up? I didn't ham it up. I just am a loud vomiter.

Okay, so naturally a loud vomit. I'm screaming the whole time. I think I'm quite a shy vomiting. Oh, really? Yeah, I like, I don't want to, I don't want to make a fuss. I really don't want to make a fuss. I'm making a fuss. Are you?

I'm kicking up a fuss if I'm throwing up. I'm just, I hate it so much. So I sort of walk out, I'd stick my head out the door, like finish vomiting. Like nothing, there's nothing inside me, but it's just like, you know, that horrible yellow, like, bile awful stuff. So I stick my head out and go, oh, I like, I keep vomiting.

And they were like, they were like, yeah, we hurt. I was like, I'm really sorry. They were like, someone's coming to see you know. It's like, okay, good. So I went in and they checked my blood pressure and whatever and did the basics. And they were like, okay, what's happened?

I was like, listen, I had a few drinks last night, but this feels crazy. I've thrown up like seven times today. and I have nothing left to throw up but it keeps happening and then like okay it feels like you probably had something

slipped in your drink it's very common in Nashville in like particularly like certain areas of Nashville and I was like that's a crazy thing to like define yourselves

by but like apparently it happens like all the time and they were like were you like looking after your drink and I was like no I was farting around

I was just walking around taking pictures doing whatever and my drink was just sat there And they were like, yeah. And they were, like, were you hanging around any, like, weird people? And I was like, no, I sort of knew people and, you know, people I'd worked with. And they were like, okay, that's kind of weird. And I was like, oh, and then I did start playing pool.

And then these, like, real sort of, like, redneck guys challenged. They were like, we'll play you for the table. And I was like, yeah, because I'm, like, quite good at pool. So I just absolutely tore these guys of fun. And they got quite, like, agro at one point. where my body was like, you should, you should kill it on the pool thing. You beat them so badly that you mean you started a fight. Well, I just think because I was like in a fun, goofy, like, I'd just on my show in Nashville.

I was having a good, I was like laughing when stuff went in and like, you know. And then this guy came up and was like, you okay? And I was like, yeah. And he was like, all right, just fucking like this redneck. And I was like, okay, whatever, blah, blah, blah. So I'm not saying they. You thought you were showboating. Yeah, maybe.

Right. And I don't, like, I'm not saying those guys definitely spiked my drink. But if I had the, if I was a betting man, my money's on Jimbo, which is his actual name. And shout out to Jimbo and his wife beat him. Jimbo and his like really frightening looking wife, actually. She was really, she from the moment I was like, yeah, let's play for it. She was like really angry about it. I don't know what was going on.

So that's the working theory. And I have eaten like one sandwich. and three spoons of porridge in the last, like, day and a half, I could collapse at any moment. But they stabbed, they injected my ass with, like, an anti-vomiting drug, and I was like, this is nice. Sick. This is nice.

And $200 as well. They didn't fuck me up. I was expecting, like, American health care to get, like, really, like, you know, cost shit loads. And $200 is crazy for, like, one injection or whatever. But, like, certainly, I stopped vomiting, and I made my flight to Austin, which was delayed by two hours, which I actually think was good.

I got, is this bad? I got assistance through the airport. Of who? I just, like, typed under the app that I needed a wheelchair. You got wheeled through the airport. You're kidding me. I was like, I can't stand up for that one.

You got wheeled through Nashville airport. Yeah. They don't ask, what's wrong? I think I said, like, ankle injury. Because I, like, a month ago, I was getting wheeled through. airports because I had fucked up my ankle. They don't ask.

I know this is so bad, but is it a life hack? You can just click the button. You don't need to, what did you click it when you're checking? I don't think they're allowed to ask. I don't think they're allowed to be like, why can't you are. Not all disabilities are visible, that kind of thing. I'm autistic, sunflower land yard. I don't know.

It's crazy. And I felt like a little bit bad for the person like pushing me through the airport. But I truly think I would have collapsed if I'd like queued for security and all that that shit, which feels valid. I didn't tell them that I was like potentially had been poisoned by a redneck and like might, you know, because I don't think they would let me on the flight. That's why I said an ankle injury. In case you were infectious or something. I think that's going to explode everywhere.

Or like, I think insurance, I think if they are, if I'd walked in and be like, I think I've been drugged. I don't know with what. I can't stop vomiting. I think they would have been like, you might like die on the flight. So like I think that like airlines, their insurance. That's going to be an inconvenience for us. I think that would be a lot of paperwork. if I died on the flight.

But yeah, got wheeled through. Pretty chill. It's like, it's good move. That actually sounds like you had a nice time. I wouldn't say that. I wouldn't say why I was in Nashville airport crying on the phone to my mom because I kept shaking.

I spent too much time practicing poo. I've been cursed with my ability to beat a redneck. Icarus of the pool world. You flew too close to the black. That sounds crazy. That's what Jimbo said to me. Yeah. So that's crazy.

So I'm not, I'm in, we're in Austin. It's my first North American tour. I'm in the States for the whole month. And the whole thing was like, I, it's pretty like, you know, in the States, pretty much by my, for the whole month. This is like stressful, but I'm going to be on top of it. And I am now not going to drink for the rest of the month. Have you been on top of it up until getting poisoned? I had a crazy one. And this is going to become a stand-up routine. But like, no, the problem

with the stand-up routine at the minute is nobody believes that it happened. Went to L.A. first. That was good fun. A terrible city. It's not really a city. It's not a place. It's just roads. It's roads with occasional things. Like, I know that is what a city is, but it's not. It's got nothing tying it together. And then went to New York and my girlfriend came at me in New York. And we were like, let's do some like, you know, touristy things. Let's get a bagel. Let's do whatever.

And so it was the day after I landed into New York. We were walking around. We got a bagel. And then we went to the 9-11 Memorial. And we were like, it was just nearby. And we were like, that's pretty like, you know, important to see. And I, this is the bit that people don't believe in audiences. I ship myself at the 9-11 memorial.

I turned to my girlfriend and was like, oh no. And she was like, yeah, it's so sad. And I was like, no, I've shit my pants. I've shit my full pants. It was like a short, it was like pretty small, but not great. So this trip so far has actually been defined by your bowels. I don't think food in this country is good for you. It's not food.

It's not food. It's not really food. I tried to get like a super plain sandwich at the airport in Nashville. And it's like, this bread isn't bread. This turkey isn't turkey. None of this is food. No. That's something that American people, I think, are missing out on.

Advanced country, military technology, AI, all this stuff. Sandwich technology just has not crossed over from the UK. When you think about, they don't understand what the meal deal is. Oh, that's a gorgeous institution. Dude, you know, I found this out, because Newtonics is, in the Sainsbury's meal deal now. Oh, congratulations. Thank you very much.

That's kind of a little bit like being knight. It's getting an OBE or an MBE or something. It's not quite a knighthood yet. Anyway, the average British citizen has 70 meal deals a year. That's, that is low. That is, in my opinion, that is low. I know, but that's the average. There's going to be some people from home that you're never going to see a meal deal or whatever.

But the fact that you can't get, how do you do you? know how to describe the institution, this kind of almost quasi-religion that is the meal deal in the UK to Americans. It's 3.50. It used to be three pounds. And you get like, so it's a main, a side and a drink. But those categories are like slightly, I think Bartlett's got his hule in the main section somehow. So you can get two drinks. Well, Bartler would of course argue that it's not a drink, it's a meal, but, you know, does have lead in it, so that's fine. So you can get, like, mostly sandwiches, wraps, like sushi, if you're a fancy ones. Salads, yeah. But it's just pasta. There's no vegetables in it. It's pasta mayonnaise, chicken and bacon, and they call it a chicken and bacon

pasta salad. Yeah, with no salad in, no vegetables at all. It's the sandwiches. There's a big difference. The sandwich is a big difference. Yeah, where you've got bread that's made from bread, and you've got, you know, two cut diagonally as well. And I think when it comes to sandwiches, the increase in the tastiness of a sandwich by cutting it corner to corner. Wow. Instant, what?

15% maybe improvement in the taste of the sandwich, I think? But what is the possible rationale for that? What's the mechanism that it's working on? I completely agree. But I don't understand how I'm going to give you a pizza toast, right? Well-buttered warm toast. done nicely, sort of a six out of ten to six and a half out of ten toastiness.

There it is, just a normal piece. You're like, it was nice, it was a nice piece of toast. And now I cut it like that and give it to you. That's a treat. That's a real treat. It's a bit nice. Somebody's looking after it. It's the attention to detail. I think it's more difficult to cut something diagonally than it is to do that,

even though it's definitely like a machine that does that. But even still. Superior Sandwich technology. But then Ireland is a step above the UK for sandwiches. Because every shop has a deli counter where they will make you a sandwich. Make you a sandwich. In front of you with like a proper like baguette, like proper bread. Chicken fillet roll is like the big thing in, in our...

Chicken fillet roll. You mean the fillet of a chicken? So it's like a chicken, like breaded chicken. Right. Oh, okay. Like Goudon's type thing. Yeah. In a roll in like a baguette.

And then you can get like anything you want on it. And it's like. Every centra, every spa, like, has a deli counter where they do chicken fillet rolls. It's amazing. And they don't have it. Maybe Ireland has superior sandwich. Ireland's top of the sandwich tree. You think?

I would say, yeah. I'm sure, like, Philadelphia would, like, be annoyed with me about that for their, like, cheese. New York might not be too happy either. But the other thing that I miss is soren. Oh, that weird. I've never had that. I think we have an equivalent in Belfast, which is called Veda. Like a mulpt loaf.

Yeah. Unbelievable. But did maltlove, dude? And again, corner to corner on that. Most people have no idea where their testosterone levels sit. But what if I told you there was a solution? Something that identifies low T faster than a high school bully and it won't cost you all your lunch money. That's where function comes in. Gives you access to over 160 lab tests, including a deep dive into your full hormone paddle. Every result is reviewed by clinicians. Anything out of range is flagged. And you get clear explanations with a personalized protocol with actionable next. steps. So if something's off, you know exactly what to do about it. Whether you just need to go to the gym more or you need to play creed louder in your car, function will tell you exactly where your testosterone and everything else stands. Normally, this level of testing would usually cost thousands, but with function, it's $365 a year. That's $1 a day to stop guessing with your health and start knowing. And right now, you can get $25 off, bringing it down to $340. So get the exact same blood panels that I do and save $25 by going to the link in the description below or heading to functionhealth.com

slash modern wisdom using the code modern wisdom a checkout. You mentioned before autism, adult autism diagnosis. Yeah, age 29, right, yeah. What's changed since that happened? Anything? I don't know. A lot of people who get the diagnosis are like, and everything suddenly made sense and I could manage my life and I could, you know,

get over these obstacles that I'd always struggled with. But I think it's like, for me, it felt like an extremely gradual process where, like, there was, it starts with, like, jokes, like, your friends just call you autistic, basically. And then I sort of socially bumped into a lot of people, like, in a negative way, just got some things wrong. But then, like, I would have an interaction with somebody that I thought was, like, positive. And then I would get like a big message the next day saying how much I'd like insulted them

You stepped over some social faux par that you didn't see I was just like what a nice chat And then the next day they're like you make me feel like shit Every time we talk And those are just the people who are like Prepared to reach out Exactly so I must be doing this all the fucking time You're saying there's a wake of destruction

Wake of autistic destruction behind you I mean there may well be And I just have no Completely oblivious blissfully unaware Completely no idea. It's definitely not blissful. It's on a way. I think this is a misconception about autism that it's like blissful lack of awareness. It's floating through life.

It's that I am constantly so worried that I've upset people, but I have no way to tell if that's the case whatsoever. So you're just like swinging punches with a blindfold on going like apologising when you didn't need to apologize and like pat- You're missing the mark on both sides. I'm fucking it. I'm fucking it in both directions. I'm apologising when I had no need to apologize. I'm patting myself on the back when I've ruined somebody's day.

And that, I sort of, that made me reach out to a medical professional and go, hey, is something, is something going on here? Also, I was like a very strange child. I was very anxious. I, like, had loads of panic attacks when I was like nine, ten, 11 years old. ran away from school and like tried to run home and was like just couldn't

had to be had to do lessons in like a different room to everybody else just do worksheets by myself had to go in through a different entry to primary school like different door because I just couldn't deal with like the crowds of people and all this stuff I punched my primary school principal because I was trying to run away and she was trying to stop me running away

How old were you? Nine At what point does a punch become punch. Like at what age? Yeah. It's like, yeah, it's like a puppy like biting your ankle or whatever. It's like, oh, that's cute up until the point. Yeah, and then it's actually assault. I would say like probably the cutoff is like

10 or 11. Yeah, you just nipped in. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just before. You're like inverse Russell brand. But then like full... Can we dig into that? Can we pick that apart? I'm inverse Russell brand? Yeah, because Russell flew very close to the sun but on the legal side and you... For an hour. Yeah, true, true. Okay, yeah. You know what I mean?

So there was an age cut off that was about to happen, and you got in just before it. Yes, but I'm going on. There was an age cut off that was about to happen, and Russell got in just after it. Okay. Inverse Russell Brand. So I was like barely legal. A barely legal punch. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That was me. That's what you are. So there was all that, and it all sort of added up to me reaching out to Dr. just like my local GP in London. And they were like, yeah, this sounds like worth investigating. Let's do like a phone call. And I had a phone call with like the specialist on the NHS. And they're like, great, we'll add you to the list,

the waiting list for the assessment. I was like, okay, how long does that normally take? And they were like, four years. And I was like, okay, cool. And then I sort of had a bit about it in my last tour show. and as I was going around and touring, I discovered, along with my audience, that I had a lot of autistic people attending my shows

and a lot of autism practitioners attending my shows. So I got five offers across the tour of people to do the assessment for free, privately. Because they were just at the show and they were like, oh, that's my job. And I can just, you know, rather than it costing like two grand to do it, I'll just do it for you.

So I did the one that was closest to London, went through the whole process. You have like four or five different appointments. You have to fill out forms. My girlfriend and my mom had to fill out. that formed. Character reference. Yeah, just like, from your perspective, what is this looked like?

From your perspective, what is this look like? And then from like my own perspective, what does that look like? And it came back and they were like, you're like a little bit raised in lots of these things, like the traits, but then like incredibly high on masking. So basically pretending you don't have autism. Which basically sort of explains why these aren't as raised as the masking ones. You even managed to mask the test. I mean, basically, and apparently this is, like, it's a similar reason why, like,

women, it's much harder to diagnose autism because they're much more concerned with, like, the group dynamics, so they're much more adept at masking and they're told to mask a bit more or expected to mask a bit more societally. So I think I have, like, girl autism, which is, like, quite exciting. I also think it's, like, a comedian thing where I mask professionally. Like, the job is, say something you said a million times as if it's the first. first time you said it. But that's also like being autistic in the world. Yeah. It's like somebody asked me this question. I know what I'm going to say because I'm not

conversing intuitively. I'm doing a little script that I'm following that I've learned is how people like to be interacted with. So I've like, that's what stand up is. So I think I'm like just a touring masker, which is quite, I think that's why the matter. But a global masquer as well across the rest of your life. Yeah, I think so. And then that's a weird feeling to sort of of like what does it mean to unmask? Like, I don't want to be rude to people. I think some people get diagnosed and then decide that they can just like freewheeling asshole.

Be a dickhead. Yeah. And I don't want to do that. But I do hope that like maybe the diagnosis and me being like public about the diagnosis means that if I do fuck up socially, then people like won't be as upset. Not even for my bad. I've got this autism card here that's not allowed to be mean to me. But not even for me.

I'm just like, please don't take any of this personally. I won't have meant that. Like, you know, because I hate upsetting people. Like, it's my least favorite thing. It is an interesting point. At what point are you culpable for your actions? Hmm, you have to be. Like that guy that had Tourette's, was it the BAFTAs?

Yeah, fuck everybody that was mean to him. Fuck every single person that was mean to him about that. I like, I was so angry about that whole scenario. I didn't think I was a particularly well-versed person on, like, Tourette's, but apparently no one in America has ever done even the most base, like, what's any, like any awareness of what it is whatsoever. And we've known about it in the UK. I don't ever remember a time of not knowing about Tourette's.

Like, even when I was a kid, I think. Reggie Yates did a documentary called Super Tourette's. Is that, is that, is that an actual medical term? Super Tourette. And what's that? So their tics, like, their physical tics are so intense that they like fall down. and it's like funny and obviously like devastating and debilitating for them but like I think they should have come up with a different name it sounds desirable super turrets it sounds like what you get if you upgrade if you press the upgrade button

when you're adding to the cart turrets plug yeah it is it's the it is it's the value meal it's a happy meal equivalent yeah yeah yeah and you want to drink with that supersize it yeah yeah supersized yeah super sized turrets yeah so and And then so all these Hollywood actors coming out and being like, I think he meant that. Why was that word in his brain? And I'm like, because it's the worst thing you could say in that moment. And that's the condition. Wasn't that same guy while on the documentary when his dog was about to cross the road,

was said to his dog like, cross the road, nope. And then his fight, even his interactions with his favorite animal. Yeah. Like he's, there's no, I mean, Lewis Capaldi, like the pressure. sure of his second album. I don't know whether you gave him Tourette's, but it sort of caused it to emerge. Yeah, I think

like it can run upon stress and stuff. I'm like, being at the Bafters, as a guy who's like a school caretaker, like janitor, I hated everybody going, all these poor actors on stage. It's like, who would you rather be? Hollywood elite millionaire on stage,

having a not nice word. Yeah, a not nice word shouted at you, or like working class guy who's just going to go back to like mopping floors when he leaves the BAFTAs who has like struggled with a debilitating neurological condition for his whole life. And now on the biggest stage he's ever had has displayed it to the entire world. Yeah. And also in a room of people at the Baftas, they're all supposed to be members of the academy and they're all supposed to have watched all the films. So they should all have seen the film about the guy who shouts inappropriate things.

And they were all like, what is going on? Do you? job, watch the thing for the award you're going to. And if you don't understand something, I just, he was getting death threats online and at no point did anyone from like the Jamie Fox side of things who, like, call them racist and all that stuff, come out and go, oh hey, like, it should have been edited out because that's a very embarrassing moment for those guys on stage. But like, it's not this guy's fault. The guy's like got a disability.

So I fucking, I've been angry about that. since it happened basically. It's pretty mean to see unfold. Weird, isn't it? Sort of social decorum. So saying the right things, behaving in the right way, in the right spaces is so highly sought after

and that kind of deviation from that behavior. We're okay with disabilities for people, for like young kids that need help in very obvious ways. But this one that's socially difficult to deal with, Autism is another one, or people that have got OCD and maybe unable to operate in the world in a way that's convenient for everybody else. It's like, I don't have to, like, not those ones. The difficult conversations of where accessibility meets, inclusivity meets me.

He should be like, there's people coming out saying he shouldn't have been at the awards thing. And I'm like, what are we doing here? Like, you're supposed to be the kind of progressive welcoming. You see you're telling me that if there was a person in a wheelchair and there was no ramp, that they shouldn't have been there. Fuck him. Army crawl your way onto the stage. If a person in a wheelchair won an award and everyone went,

ah, it's too much five. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just throw that. Someone just launched them up. Yeah, exactly, shot put them. Have you got any shot putt? Have you got any shot putt this evening? You've shot put that person up there.

And what's interesting was, listening to, tell your story about what childhood was like for you and some of those scripts. Certainly for me reflecting on my childhood, one of my most common recurring and comfortable dreams is me doing something to another person that I thought was just a bit of fun or I thought was a normal interaction

to then find out that I've crossed some invisible line that I didn't know existed and to then immediately feel horrendous about it. The last one of these I had was about two weeks ago or so and it was Yasmin, who does the guest book that got you here. We were walking down the street and I had a like a gateway bottle like that. that had water in.

And I thought we were just playing about and I sort of splashed some water at her. And that turned out to be this huge faux par that I'd done. And immediately I felt terrible. And then I woke up and I was all anxious. And I just woke up and that was it. And that is a consistent theme.

Not only in my life, but also in the dreams that I've had for, like that is the, if you were to pick the center of the bullseye of my awkwardness in reality, it's me doing a thing and someone being mad at me without me realizing that I'd done it and then finding out importantly then finding out. Because occasionally you do something in your life, whether it's in work or relationships

where you go, look, this might upset this person, but I'm going in with my eyes open and I like still think this is the right thing to do even though it's going to be like uncomfortable or upset them. And that's one thing. But then like just being so blindsided. but what do you think like are you interested in the past like do you think you might have autism like i don't want to be one of these i'm going to wear your culture as my costume no but like and god there's enough autistic people that go around diagnosing everyone else yeah like i like what would

you i have no idea i have absolutely no idea there's certainly some trait i mean again pathologizing anything everything is just some some form of a spectrum right and at some point you breach the threshold for it to be said, and now you are depressed, and now you are anxious, and now you are Asperger's, and now da-da-da-da. But I've always made this joke,

which is maybe a self-protection thing. I don't know the difference between being an only child and being autistic. You're just an unsocialized boy. Bingo. You weren't introduced to other dogs when you were young.

Or maybe that ramps up your predisposition. a little bit because there's all of the memes around, well, people that have got autism can't hold eye contact, people that have got autism are unable to operate socially. They need to do stimming. They need to da-ta-ta-da-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta. And then you realize actually there's a infinity number of ways that it can show up. But then also people's desire to have some form of mental pathology so that they can have a thing. I think autism is, it is sort of the sexy new, if you're going to have a mental malady, it's one of the ones that people

kind of typically are like, okay, it's like, I'm just autistic, like, you know, it's a word that gets thrown around an awful lot. Yeah, and that's difficult. I think it, there's a great book, there's two great books by comedians about adult autism diagnosis. There's Fern Brady, a strong female character, and there's Pierre Novelli,

why can't I just enjoy things? And the real sort of like shot chaser, like Fern just like, fuck, mad! And Pierre's is like, and here's why, I think. But it's really, really interesting. And Pierre talks about a couple things in that where what I,

where he says like the, the terminology like of the word like autism will probably become like defunct reasonably soon because it's a really big umbrella term. Like a really big umbrella term. And a helpful thing was the Asperger's category, but you're not supposed to say that anymore because he was a Nazi. Who was?

Asperger. He was the guy that discovered it. Yeah, invented it or I don't know what the word is, but discovered or like categorized it as a thing. He was like a Nazi, so it's not named after him anymore. So the appropriate term now is like autism level one, which is what I have, which is Asperger's. Oh, okay.

And then Autism Level 2. And the three levels are basically. Nazi in this regard. I am a Nazi. That's, I think that's what it means. Yes. But the,

in this regard, in loads of regards. Yeah. The, and then the level two and then level three. And it's basically like how much help do you need to exist in like, normal, neurotypical life.

So like, level one is like, you don't need any outside assistance to like go to your life. Apart from a wheelchair. Like you can cope with the world. And then level two is like you might need some help. like or like you know care or whatever and then level three is like you can't exist in the world you're basically full-time care all that stuff and like you know like to have me and then somebody

who's non-verbal and hits themselves in the head and like cuts their arms by like scratching so repeatedly like it's sort of crazy that we've got the same diagnosis and I get that like look there's people with cancer and then there's people with cancer you know it's like stage one stage two stage three stage four it's a similar thing I guess the autism doesn't develop hopefully, hopefully, in that direction. But I do think it feels strange. What I like about it versus, so I got diagnosed with ADHD as well.

Oh, a real one-two punch. Yeah, I think it was like, buy one, get one for a year or something. Package deal. Yeah. And they, I don't like care about that one really as much, partly because I think it might be over-diagnosed, or I would worry that it's over-diagnosed

because there's medication for it. So what's nice about autism is there's no big pharma money that you can follow to go, well, they would be motivated to diagnose lots of people with autism because then they could sell these drugs or whatever. Whereas with ADHD, they are motivated to diagnose lots of people at ADHD because there is medication for it. So that's why I think the autism one feeds a little bit of killing. You have been spending a good bit of time in America. The big pharma conspiracies are already running rampant. Yeah, well, the thing is like the NHS is like, the NHS is like, like an amazing thing that is like being a bit fucked over.

But the big pharma still gets their sort of claws in because they're just selling it to the NHS rather than, you know, you're sort of. Whether the money comes direct from you or comes from you through your taxes through the NHS and back out. There's still money sort of at the end of it. So I would worry about that a little bit with the ADHD diagnosis. And I haven't tried the medication for ADHD. What is it? It's like speed. That's good.

Yeah, it's like that. Yeah. It's like riddling. But apparently like if you have ADHD, you like, it doesn't make you. It's like just you can do your taxes. That's a real, that's a real like litmus test. That feels like a chemical. That should be how you should do it.

Yeah. You should say, okay, take this and then just see if this person starts bouncing off the walls or if they do sit down and read. I also read an interesting thing and I don't know if this is like even nearly scientifically true. But there's a massive comorbidity with autism. and I think called Ellers Danlos syndrome, which is like hypermobility and like the soft tissue in your bones and joints. And I am like quite hypermobile.

Like my wrist pops out and like things dislocate on me all the time. There's someone that plays a bit of sport. Great. Yeah. Wonderful. Terrible. Nightmare. But so yeah, that.

But then some people have said, well, what if like they are, they're not like happening at the same time sort of by chance or whatever? It's just the same thing as in like, the soft tissue in your bones and joints. It's also affecting the soft tissue. You've got bone autism.

No, but it's affecting the soft tissue in your brain. Because there's different types of tissue in your brain and the connective stuff between all the bits. So you've got brain Ella's dandruff condition or whatever it's called. Yeah, I've got hypermobile brain. Although hypermobile doesn't feel like a good word for how autistic people's brains work. They're not exactly flexible. Yeah.

What happened with this Irish Times article thing? Oh, that was interesting. I feel a little bit bad about that. I've spoken to the lady who wrote the article and I had spoken to her before she wrote the article and so to fill people in like I there was a write up about a few different things in the Irish Times

like me, Sally Rooney and Neacap just the big three and and within it there was sort of like a couple paragraphs of like a review of my show that they'd come and seen and

I'd like spoken to her on the first phone about it and she'd written like really interesting articles about like Ireland has an incredibly high GDP and is a very wealthy country but the public service is like our dog shit like public transport's really bad there's no national health service there's like this

that and the other like whereas we have the whole point of this like letting all these corporations come in to Dublin and have their offices there is that you do make some money off them and then that goes into like do you benefit from that north of the border? No right no but like the whole yeah um And I think she's really interesting.

I think she's really clever. But when she wrote about my show, she said that, like, it was unapologetically local. And, like, if you don't get the references, that's your problem. And she, like, quoted another review that gave me two stars at the fringe

of someone who clearly just, like, didn't get the show at all. Which is one of my favorite reviews, actually, the two-star one. It really made me laugh quite a lot. But I just, like, she'd phrased it in a way that I was like, oh, that's a bit annoying. Like, this is quite a big, like, newspaper.

And if I were someone that didn't know, who Victoria Magdalone was and I read that I would think that's just like it's a bit of a stereotype of Northern Irish comedians that we just do the you know it's funny because it's local thing of going and also it's inaccessible which means if I was maybe thinking that I was going to buy a ticket and like well I don't speak Belfast yeah so it's just like whereas in the show like that was the point I made when I did like a post about it on Instagram being like I you know wrote this show in London trialed it all around England, did it at the Edinburgh Fringe,

did it in New York, I've now done it in America, and in the article, she said, like, I refuse to explain myself, but I, like, truly don't. Like, I do loads of expositioning, like, and that's, like, the fun of the show is, like, going, hey, this place I'm from,

is a bit fucked up, here's why, here's this, here's that, here's this weird quirk about it. And, like, opening it out to the, is, like, the sort of half of the point of the show that I've written. And I was just, like, a little bit annoyed. So I just was like,

oh, you know, I'll just post a little thing on Instagram, and this has happened a couple of times recently and this is like I think this, don't know if this is an autism thing but like maybe where I just think I'm like having a little bit of fun

or like just informing people of something like my run of shows in Belfast one of the nights like 20 people arrived 30 minutes late and I like asked the audience I was like oh like is it unclear on the website what time this starts

and they were like yeah kind of so in the interval I just went on my on Instagram and did like a black square white text and was like oh 20 people just arrived taffin or late for my show um for the rest of this week doors are at this time shows at this time except for the matinees those are this time show this time thanks and it's gotten like more views than most of my stand-up clips i think because people think i'm being like tattie really fucking rude or whatever but it was just like here are the facts of the situation and here's how I can help and then i think with the iris times i was like just trying to do a little i didn't like

the way this person phrased themselves about my show. And then, uh, it like just blew up in like a kind of mad way where it has like 40,000 likes or something. And then some people going, I think you've misread the article. And I, but I agree.

She was trying to compliment me in the article. But I just, I don't think it came across in a way that was like nice. So I tried to do a little post about it. And then she reached out and was like, oh, I think you've kind of taken me out of context. And I was like, you and me both sister.

Like, you know, we're kind of, it was a funny phone call. She was like, you're going to apologize? And I was like, are you? Like, we both pissed each other off. Fucking standing armies, yeah. We're both probably in the wrong a little bit.

Yeah, yeah. And didn't phrase ourselves perfectly. And I maybe shouldn't have put her, like, in the screenshot, I kept her name and, like, the article. But I'm also, like, your name's in the newspaper beside where the article is. Like, it's not like, it's hard to find out who wrote the article. But then the problem with the internet is it's just full of guts,

isn't it? So, like, people sent her, like, horrible messages on Instagram and stuff. And I was like, I don't know how much responsibility I didn't need to take for my audience, but like, I'm sorry that that happened. That wasn't my intention. And like, you know, we're like friendly enough now and just have a sort of agree to disagree thing on that in it. I think she didn't phrase herself well.

She thinks I didn't freeze myself well. And like, I don't know. Like, it's very easy as a comedian to do this whole like, fuck everybody. I don't fucking care. And if somebody has to go at me, whoa, I'm just a comedian or whatever. Like, but I don't like, that's not. how I like to exist in the world. Like, I upset somebody, so I reach out to them and had a phone call and was like,

hey, let's fucking talk this really. We might not agree at the end of the conversation, but... I have a half apology each. Yeah, if even, I don't think either of us really apologize. But it was just like, okay, I sort of understand where you're coming from. You sort of understand where I'm coming from. It's nice. You might not believe me, but this is what peak sleep optimization looks like.

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I'm heading to 8Sleep.com slash modern wisdom and using the code modern wisdom at checkout. That's E-I-G-H-T sleep.com slash modern wisdom at checkout. I've been watching the fallout after the roast of Kevin Hart thing. It's been kind of fascinating to see And I was thinking about what would be the difference If it had happened in the UK Because I don't know I've been in the US for four years now

But obviously still listen to a lot of you Listen to a lot of Finn Listen to the screen rock boys You're having to Yeah I've said to you before This is my It's my way to tap back into a little bit of British culture It sort of reminds me that Jaffa Cakes

And the Inbetweens and the Inbetweens And you know like Wayne Lennox still exists Like it's very important for me to have my cultural way markers. The three pillars of the UK? Correct. Jaffa cakes in between us and Wayne Linnaker. Wow.

This is true. But I was thinking because you guys did a roast recently, maybe not Netflix and Kevin Hart or whatever. But and then what's happening with whatever we want to call it, like British comedy now, it seems like the new, what I'm seeing is a new sort of half generation that's stepping through, which have been mostly borne out by the internet, although everyone's on a million years of standard. I'm aware that everyone's driven to, like, Woking and shit house.

Went to Pizza Express. Exactly. Like, done all of those things. Like, they've done that for a long time, and now they've just burst on the internet. But from getting public awareness, people are just starting to break through. And that's really cool. And it feels like there's this next sort of wave that's on its way, which is real exciting. But to see the number of different factions, and maybe this is just because America is such a

big country. and so many people hate each other. It's very contentious. But it's like an earthquake occurs. This big thing happens. And then there's all of these aftershocks that go on afterward. So then Chelsea Handler's going to go on Don Lemon's podcast and she's going to talk about this.

And then Shane's going to talk to Matt and they're going to say this thing. And Tony, I don't know whether he's piped up yet, but he's going to. And everyone's waiting. It's almost, you know what it is? It's almost like someone's had a boxing fight and then you're waiting for the post-fight press conference. Yeah. And you're waiting to hear, well, you know, I just wasn't on form this evening.

The training camp was great, but tonight I just wasn't about it. Or he missed weight. I can't believe we've had to pay the purse. Like, then we need to run their back. And I don't, I haven't seen that level of catiness in the UK. I don't know whether it's not big enough for the factions to go, whether I'm just not paying enough attention, whether there's not a large enough pie

for everybody to be worried about that. You all need to keep friends because the likelihood of you bumping into someone is probably higher than it is in the US. There's this enforcement mechanism if I just don't want to have to face it. I don't have to bump into you and feel like you've got this unsaid stuff like you and this journalist lady maybe.

Or maybe there's more decorum, more politeness. I don't know. I was thinking about it because a few clips popped up of your guys' roast from a little while ago, and then the Kevin Hart won and I was comparing the two and I thought he was kind of interesting about how, yeah,

the difference in the post-fight press conference. Well, I think, like, the roast thing is such a big, like, it's been an American culture for a long time. Like, the Don Rickles stuff. It's much older in this country than it is in the UK, culturally. Whereas, because, like, we've, like,

you could very easily, I don't know if he would do it, but, like, you could do, like, a roast of Jimmy Carr. like in the UK on Netflix but like you know whether that would cut through in the UK or what that was and you know that was the have a word

podcast did that roast that we did in the UK and I think like it didn't it's sort of people who've been on their podcast and we all have our own followings and like and it was also just on their Patreon and clips are just going out as like clips but like I don't know the roast thing's fun

I think it's become like reaction has become such a big part of culture, maybe particularly in America, where it's like, this person reacts to this thing, it's half of YouTube, is videos that have gone viral, and then people just watching those videos.

Did it start with Two Girls One Cup? Maybe. It might have. That was Patient Zero. Of reaction culture? Patient Double Zero. Because, like, there's more videos of people watching Two Girls One Cup

than obviously the one video that is Two Girls One Cup. You know what I mean? Like, there's all these people being like, oh, that's fucking disgusting. And I think like, I don't know, I thought a lot of that roast stuff was like, they're all funny jokes. I saw all the, like, lots of the jokes at the comedy store the week of because everybody was like practicing their jokes. I was at that crazy night at the comedy store where Chappelle showed up and then brought on Gillis and then brought on Louis C.K.

and then brought on Chris Rock and then brought on Kanye West. Kanye West was at the comedy store. So it was the day after I landed in L.A. I went to the, I didn't have anything to do on the Sunday night, like the day before the Netflix is a joke festival started. And I was like, oh, just go watch, like, the open mic at the comedy store to like,

I like to do that when I arrive in a place I've never been before, like, see some like really bad stand-up comedy. To like... Picked a great night. Well, like, well, because the problem at the comedy store is the open mic becomes the proper show. And I, just as like a confidence boost, wanted to be like,

let's fucking watch some shit. And to be fair, they were shit. And we were sort of enjoying it. And I'd been there for like, maybe an hour when the proper show started. And then they started bringing on people. But the problem is I arrived and was like, tried to do, like, I don't want to be, like, again, I think didn't know what the social norm was,

but walked up to the dorm was like, oh, hi, I'm a comedian in town for the Netflix festival and I was just hoping to watch the show. And they were like, yes, $20. And I was like, okay, that's like fine, whatever. Give them 20. Give him 20. I was like, I don't think, okay, that's fine. Give him $20. And then they're like, okay, put your phone in this little bag, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then they walk me through and sit me in the front row. And I'm like, this is, this is silly that I'm here.

But like, because I'm not a great laugher. I like a comedy show. I don't know. Like, I'm okay, but like, not the worst. But I sort of just sit there and, like, quietly enjoy and analyze it because I'm so, like, in the weeds of what it is. Yeah. And, but I'm sat at the front in the corner. And, like, nearly every comedian on like the main show referenced the fact that I wasn't laughing. Like this guy fucking hates it. Not knowing that. Yeah, I was loving it. I was having a good time.

Polly Shore called me gay for his whole set. It was like quite fun. Call me a gay Nazi. It was like fun. And then, yeah, and then I noticed the security going around and taking people's Apple watches, even though they'd already got everybody's phones.

And I like putting those in pockets. And I was like, oh, somebody, somebody famous is about to walk on. And then that's when they brought Chappelle on. And then he brought on all those people. So I saw a lot of those roasts. And it's so funny,

the one that's gotten like, Gillis in trouble on the internet or whatever or the one that Chelsea Handers kicking up a fuss about. Like, that's the one. When Gillis was on, I was like,

oh, I'm not a bad audience member. I just have a high bar. Yeah, I was just folded and half laughing. It was unbelievable. Yeah. And, yeah, the joke about Kevin Hart is so short.

they're going to have to lynch him from a bonsai tree. That's the one I was like recounting to people as the best one I'd heard that I was really excited to see on Netflix. And that's the one that everybody's like, I can't believe you fuck. You don't make jokes about lynching. Chelsea Handler said lynching's worse than rape. Hmm.

I mean, I don't know why we're doing a league table. Yeah. It's not a competition. I think they're both bad. It's not a competition. I think they're both really bad. It's just, it's interesting to see this fallout and to think these people are on stage to try and achieve the same thing

like to have a good time supposedly to have a good time I think that's a misunderstanding people have about roasts some people think it's like a competition and like somebody wants to win and somebody wants like that's very American yeah but even roast battles I'm like this is a double act you're like that's how you should view it and that's like it's a dance partner than a fight it's an ensemble show and you're trying to perform for other people you're not trying to just be mean

you're trying to say really funny things about your friends and colleagues and famous people and stuff. And I think like, yeah, I don't know. Like, I try not to get caught up in this. Like, everybody's too offended nowadays. Everybody just has too much of an opinion nowadays. It's like, I, you didn't like it. And an infinite number of opportunities to talk about it. Yeah.

And broadcast it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Everyone has their own little platform. And an incentive to say things. And it's hard to fucking not. Like, you know, I'm on a podcast right now. a big podcast and I could give my fucking hot take on the roast of Kevin Hart and it could be a clip and it could do well and whatever but like I liked it it was a bit long some people

didn't do great but they're actresses not comedians so what the fuck you are there we are that's it clip it that's a nice thing you know like this is the most lukewarm take that we can have so much like so many people going oh you should do a post about this you should do a cat to camera video about this No, I've written the show that I've spent loads of time on, and that's what I'm, you know. There is definitely a sense that comedians are like ammunition bullets in the chamber of one particular perspective or another, that this thing has happened and we need someone to comment on it. And we know that if we try and get someone who's too serious, it's going to come across as kind of stodgy and it doesn't really work on the internet. But we've got this guy, and we think that this guy mostly agrees with us.

So if we can make him aware of it. this thing, we can kind of point him like a rifle and then you can pull the trigger and he'll do something and that'll take down. I've been kind of obsessed with this idea that I heard this week of a cringe cancellation. So you can cancel somebody because they did something illegal. You can cancel somebody because they said something reprehensible or whatever it is. But there's a much more pernicious type of cancellation, which is I think what people are attempting to use comedians for, which is I want you to make this person's brand equity so toxic to be associated with. Yeah, wow.

That they become cringe-canceled. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's probably quite powerful as an idea. I wonder who would I. What's an example of someone who you think has been like cringe-canceled? Somebody made a joke about them that was so funny. Shetty and Bartlett got close to it when you and Mike did that clip.

That's the canonical example. Wizards of nothing? That was the one. That's true. That's one of my favorite. That went into staff. But that's the kind of thing that I'm talking about, which is like if, if, if, and this maybe not even, it's done in advance. We're going to try and say this thing to make it so uncool or whatever.

But for the most part, like a lot of criticisms around Russell Brown. This is a, this is a two-pronged assault, right? The real cancellation, but also the cringe cancellation, which comes in because a lot of the time if someone's virtue gets chipped away at, that opens up the opportunity for, oh, maybe the momentum slowing, which means that we can also get in there and do the cringe thing too. But it's not always prefabricated.

I'm not saying that every single time, but that these things can happen by accident or they can be, someone can try to construct them. But either way, if you make it basically uncool. Embarrassing to like that thing. To listen to someone. Yeah.

That is, you know what, remember the R not number from COVID, like for every person that gets infected, however many more people. So, for instance, the psychology of money book by Morgan Housel, my friend, for every person that buys the book, another 1.2 people buy the book. Okay, wow. Because they like it so much and it's so widely applicable. And managing your money is such an important thing that the total addressable market is like 8 billion people.

Yeah, yeah. So every month, I think I'm still right on this, every month since it launched three years ago, it sold more copies. Yeah, that's just fucking insane. Well, that's that, that's like books. Word of mouth is like the only way to sell books. Yes. Like there's, you can put, you can't put up a billboard of a book. Like nobody fucking cares.

I don't care. But if you say, dude, you need to read this. Or better, I bought it for you. So there it is. Money. Right? Yeah. But if you can do the opposite of that, if you can make the R0 number less.

Yeah. That for every person that sees this thing, fewer people want to be associated. You know what I mean? Yeah. It's this sort of negative. I listen to Jay Sherry's. podcast so you don't have to. Well, I think

Brian Callan, good friend, firing the kid, that has been on the receiving end of this. That is a real difficult spiral to come up. Because how do you reverse engineer someone that's having a, that is saying this is not something that you should listen to and because I'm saying that you shouldn't listen to it, fewer people want to listen to it, which means, it's very human.

And then if you try to push back against that, it's just more cring and more cringe and more cringe. It's a horrible sort of spiral to get yourself into. But it's like, I think it's a worry of like social isolation, isn't it? Right. Of like it's cringe to be into that. It's like, oh, better not.

Yes. It's like that Bill Burr joke about roller skating. Do you know he said like roller skating was massive until that one homophobic joke in the 90s and then everybody put the roller skates in the bin, which is what's the hardest thing about roller skating, telling your dad you're gay. Okay.

Yeah, it's like a roller skating cancellation. That's exactly what I mean. Yeah, that's precisely what I mean. But it can happen for anything, right? It can happen for bands. It can happen for TV stations. It can happen for what. And overexposure is a big thing.

I think for like actors as well. Where people are just sick of saying somebody. Who would be an example of that? I think Nick Cage was probably not far off it at one point, but then actually went through it so far. He kind of did the full horse shoe that he full circled and came back out the other side of the cringe thing. The rock actually.

got cringe canceled without being properly the rock is actually the canonical example of this and then it seems to me like he's trying to do another he's trying to do a rebrand with being edgy

swearing more less family friendly and the Kevin Hart roast thing yeah because that was that felt like oh cats out of the bag with saying retard the rock said it

you know what I mean like the rock is the overton window that's exactly that is exactly what my friend George said Precisely. He's like, holy fucking shit, the rock's there. Yeah. That is, yeah, he's as Hollywood, as Overton Windowy as you can get. Yeah. I don't know if that's a good thing.

The rock is the center of culture. Yeah, that doesn't feel great. That doesn't feel like all of the generally accepted opinions are represented an enormous sort of freak. Like, he is a freak. You know what I mean? Pisses and bottles on set and stuff apparently? I didn't hear about that. Yeah. That's interesting.

Because he's working hard, Chris. That's what I need. That's what I need. I need one of those down here to show just how hard I'm working. A little catheter? That'd be cool. That'd be cool. Yeah.

I don't know. It's very surprising to think how far back would you need to go for that roast to not be allowed on the internet? Three years, four years maybe. As in the Netflix roast, a lot on the internet? Oh, sorry, allowed, allowed on Netflix and broadcast. Yeah. Shows how much I've seen it online. But then it's just cycles, isn't it?

Isn't it just pendulum swinging and stuff like that? You know, if you look at the Don Rickles roasts, I mean, you obviously racist jokes. Like, talk to Don Rickles. But I mean, you couldn't have put that out in 2020. Yeah, people went a bit mad. But when was, at what point would that have been allowed this year, one year ago? two years ago, three years ago, because it wouldn't have been six years ago.

Probably pretty recent. It's probably one or two, really. Yeah. And I try not to like, I don't know, pay much heed to that stuff. Like what is allowed, what isn't allowed. Is that because you're purposefully not trying to be an edge lord? Yeah. Well, I'm purposely trying not to come across as an edge lord.

I'm not saying things because they're edgy. Aside from the fact that you have to say things that create tension in the room to be a stand-up comedian and like you know if if you're in a topic that people aren't comfortable with then you can get a nice laugh at the end of it but it's not just for the sake of being edgy well that's something everyone's talking about at the moment which is how often are the joke's funny and how often is it just a forbidden sentence yeah i mean i haven't been like around america for a few weeks like like there is something a little bit embarrassing about some of american comedy where it's like if you're you have a joke that doesn't work, if you just stick a slur at the end, people will clap

because they think you're like fighting this good fight to like. It's the right wing equivalent of we don't like that orange guy. Exactly. It's all just clapped her and it's all really, really boring and pandering and sort of nonsense. Like a big thing with my show that I'm touring at the minute is like, I don't think anybody should be comfortable the whole. time, but for different reasons. Like I think some people who might lean more towards the right or be more there for

the edgy or dark stuff, they'll be uncomfortable because I'm like reasonably vulnerable in the middle of the show and sincere at points and talk about difficult things personally. But then the people who like that vulnerable narrative, thematic stuff will be uncomfortable with some of the jokes that I make later on. And it's just like, yeah, you want to stretch your audience. You don't want to like give them what they want. And I think a lot of American comedians are big into getting big rounds of applause for being, saying naughty words. It's like, do you know, when you were like 12 and you found out what a female dog is called and all your mates are like, oh my God, like, you can say a bitch, like you can call it a bitch because it's a bitch.

That feels like what a lot of American comedy is at the minute where it's like, we're allowed to say this, no, so, ooh, no. Noddy. I don't know what, what's happening with the vulnerability side, but there's definitely a performative, there's a performative element of both. There's a performative element of pushing beyond what is allowed. This is the oven window I'm going to push on that side. But then you also create the incentive to perform in the other direction, which is to just have endless amounts of vulnerability. Like I heard this term recently speed running relatability.

Someone trying to like hurry their way through. Just trauma dumping on you. In a desperate attempt to be like, I am a real person. Let me show you how much of a real person I am. Yeah. And that also is performative. And that also has the potential to be cringe. But when authenticity is incentivized because people seem to like that, they seem to resonate with that,

what you end up with is a world of people trying to work out how to reverse engineer authenticity that genuinely looks authentic, but doesn't have to be authentic. Like, it doesn't have to be sincere. It just needs to appear authentic. It just needs to align with whatever your brand is and whatever your stick is. Your Russell brand. Oh, yeah. whatever sort of whatever people want to hear from you like i think that's a big thing with a lot of

comedy audiences they want to know what angle you're coming from from the start you know particularly in america i think it's like nobody in america's american everybody i'm italian or i'm irish this or i'm that it's like and then all their jokes are filtered through that lens where i sort of am slightly averse to that or it's like i can tell you what i think it's nothing to do with me being irish none of these things that define me entire I'm not just Irish, I'm not just autistic, I'm not just Italian, I'm fucking none of those things, really. This episode is brought to you by Whoop. According to my Whoop, I've tracked nearly 2,000 days of my life. And the thing that still gets me is that I could have predicted almost every bad day before it happens.

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If you don't like it after 29 days, they just give you your money back. Right now, you can get the brand new Whoop 5.0 and that 30-day free trial by going to the link in the description below. We're heading to join.wop.com slash modern wisdom. That's join.orghum.com slash modern wisdom. You built a show around a clip of a 10-pin bowler. Big time. What is it about that clip that made you so fascinated with it? So what's interesting is I

So the show is called Who Do You Think You Are I Am? The Tempen Bowler is Pete Weber Who you might have seen on the internet shouting Who Do You Think You Are I am? And I knew when I was like working towards the show That it was going to be a show about identity And how people perceive me and how I perceive myself And I just thought that was like a funny

meme title for that show But as I was writing the show And performing the show I realized that like loads of people hadn't seen the clip, which is crazy to me, because in my mind it goes viral, like, once a month to a crazy level. But, like, most people I performed on the tour hadn't seen the video at all. So I had to, like, write an explanation of the video at the start of the show, which was a

fucking nightmare, but, like, actually very fun and, like, excited, like, a fun bit and a fun thing to explain. And then as I was working on the show, I was like, oh, this is like, I think he's me, like in the show. Like I didn't sit down being like, I'm going to write a show where I sort of, in the subtext of the show, I am this professional bowler who is like kind of my hero because of this clip. Like it just sort of became evident to me as I was talking about my experiences of that last couple years of like coming across very arrogant to other people, pissing people off without. realizing I was pissing them off and then trying to find a bit of that swagger having like put myself in a bit of a box and avoided that for a while and like like doing that

sort of like wrestling thing and Pete Weber is a big wrestling fan of like the heel turn of being like fuck you this is like a fun thing to play with of like steering into this kid of being like I'm arrogant and therefore like you know Pete Weber's the bad boy of bowling which is like a very funny thing to be like it's a crazy thing to be the bad boy of but so stand-up comedy. Like it's a very embarrassing sort of weird art form kind of. And it's like, so yeah, it just came out of it naturally.

And I was really annoyed because he lives in Nashville, but he was away when I was doing my show there. And I was supposed to do that show about him in Nashville. And I really wanted to do it for him. And I don't know if he's watched it. He follows me on Instagram. And I did message him being like, oh, hey, the special came out on YouTube.

And he was like, yeah, man, I'm going to watch it this week. Then he hasn't replied since. I don't know if he just really didn't like it. What was the putting yourself in a box thing, like regressing back and then coming back out? So the story from that show is like I, a clip of my podcast got screen recorded and sent around lots of comedian WhatsApp groups

where I was saying, talking about having an unexpectedly good run at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival. And I was like, oh, people keep telling me, I'm the guy this year. Like, it's my year to be the guy. I'm the fucking guy. And I was saying that I was finding that really stressful.

I was having lots of panic attacks. Like, how am I going to live up? These weren't people who'd seen the show. They'd just heard the buzz or whatever. And I was like, how do I live up to whatever this is? It's kind of the Lewis Capaldi effect. Yeah, I'm just like, oh, like, I can't, I mean, on a much smaller scale, but like, that kind of thing.

And then, so I was being made fun of. But like, they cut off the podcast clip out of context where it's just me going, people keep telling me I'm the fucking guy this year. and that got sent around and then people come up to me during the festival and be like, oh, it's the fucking guy

and I'd be like, oh, what's happening again? Because I didn't find out I didn't find out about the WhatsApp groups until a month after. So I'd have this month of my life that I was like,

this is the best month of my career so far, so exciting, really proud of what I achieved and I had a really fun time with lots of different comedians. Like it was difficult at points, but I had a really fun time. And then a month later,

all of that was like, oh fuck, like everybody was making fun of it. The veil, got lifted. It's like my throwing water on Yasmin dream. Yeah, it's that. I thought we were all having fun.

I thought this was a good time. Yeah. And everybody just thought I was like a wanker. Which is like truly like if I had been sent that clip of another comedian, I would have like ripped into them endlessly because it's like funny. And I get how I came across. But I think for fear of that happening again, there was like maybe a year and a half, two years where I like tried to put a lid on like a bit of the self promotion, a bit of the like. Bravado. Yeah, that stuff, which I think is like part of my, like, has always been part of my approach to comedy, but from doing that show and touring that show, like, building that part of myself back up and being slightly less ashamed of like, yeah, I'm like ambitious. I want to like do lots of cool stuff and I think I can be really good at stand up comedy. And like the reason I do stand up comedy is I think I can, I think I can be one of the best in the world at it.

And I didn't have that when I was like a musician or whatever. But I felt like with stand-up comedy, I was like, I'm not saying definitely and it's all subjective, but I was like, I think I can be one of the best in the world of this. So I've kind of been working on getting my mojo back in that sense. And you kind of have to, because I tell you what's hard to do without any bravado is promote a stand-up comedy tour on Instagram. Authentically. Yeah.

To be like, hey, come see the show. It's like, it's fine. It's not going to work. And there's loads of comedians going on and go, oh, fucking hate doing this. self-promove stuff and I'm like yeah, but like, that's the job. I'm sorry. You're sort of in marketing.

But you're also going to be sad if you only play to a half-filled theater. Exactly. So like you, yeah, I mean, that's something else that really resonates with me. I think certainly from childhood, maybe this is working class. You know, I'm from Stockton, right? Stockton on T's. It's, I, I've tried to put across just how horrendous the places. There's a beautiful theater.

Yep. And then everything else. Correct. It's off. Yeah. You've played in Stockton. I've done the Ark in Stockton. I went to go and see that what's that fucking World War I play about a horse? War Horse? War Horse. War Horse. You stupid. It's like my dream.

You said all of the words. It's like my dream again. World War I play about a horse. sign that was so mean of me but that that was close what's that book about the jungle um for a ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

Anyway, I went to go and see that in art in the arc um um for a good while I don't know whether it's just a a British thing

northeast of the UK whether it is you need an amount of charm to be able to carry off bravado or ego or like confidence there's definitely the tall poppy thing if don't get too big for your boots

I mean fuck me how many times I heard I know Ireland's got that notions is what we call it he's got notions as in you have notions that you're somebody oh if you're accused of having notions

that would be a bad thing I think I would be accused of having notions too keen don't know your place yeah yeah it's tall poppy it's the exact same thing You're right. I like that. Well, I don't like it, but you know what I mean.

Yeah. And what I learned as being an incredibly unpopular kid in school, highly under-socialized who played cricket. So like, you know, just in case I was going to make it worse on myself. Yeah, yeah. I'm going to play cricket at a moderately high level, right, and wear whites all the time. What I learned was if you really aggressively downplay what it is that you've got going on, if you don't talk about your ambitions, if you don't sound like you're too. big for your boots. I think I reverse engineered that a lot of people find you more likable in that way, that they don't see you as a threat. It's not quite the same thing as humility. It's like, it's kind of like performative humility in a way. It's meekness, isn't it? Correct. Yeah. That's a good way to put it. Yeah. Well, they're going to inherit the earth according to the Bible. Jordan Peterson would agree. Yeah. And, but it's, it's not genuine meekness. It's more of fear of judgment where you're, I'm not going to, I want to say too much. I want to,

you know what changed is for me? The movie Coach Carter. I don't think I've ever seen that. Brother, what is the point in talking to you? You have to watch Coach Carter. I haven't, what's it about? Basketball. So Samuel L. Jackson is a basketball coach. Okay. In a sort of impoverished neighborhood, Richmond, the Richmond Oilers. And there's this recurring thing where he asks a player, Timo Cruz, what's your deal? deepest fear and he like refuses to answer and then he like just but it keeps coming on what's your deepest fear what's your deepest fear and then when timo cruz i think like a family member of his gets like shot but he's like he turned his back on the team because he didn't want to go to class

he didn't want to do all the strict like classic sports movie stuff like you have to have to have to blah blah blah and like be respectful wear a tie all that stuff he like stormed out but then he had like really horrible family stuff and then he got back into the team and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Really dramatic moment in the film. He stands up and says, our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. It's that we are powerful beyond measure.

It is not our darkness, but our light that scares us the most. And it's this poem that already exists. I can't remember who it's by, but he does the whole poem. And like, I think at some point in my life, I was like, yeah, you know, if you shine your light, it emboldens other people to shine theirs as well. And I think, yeah, it's so easy to be like that tall poppy thing. And when do you think you got over that?

Because it's like, you're probably a very good example of that of like being like, I'm going to interview people. Like there's a level of like, who the fuck are you and why would we watch that? Well, yeah, for sure. I think to be honest, I think I'm still playing it. I'm still certainly still downplaying whenever I get asked about what's going on. Like I did this big interview with, for like High Life magazine, which is a British Airways thing. I did something in the Times recently. I did a bunch of others. And if you read through it,

it sounds like a comedian, it sounds like a very, very bad comedian trying to do self-deprecating. Like every single line is trying to be self-deprecating. Because, well, you know, I, being from the northeast of the UK, I didn't have particularly big dreams anyway, so it's nice that I've surpassed them. Some shit like that. Like at every single step of the way. Rather than like, you have goals that you happen. I'm the eighth biggest podcaster in the world. Yeah. Right. Like, I, I just, that's something that I can... And also, you're not done. You think you're annoyed that you're 8th?

Yes. You want to be 7th or 6th or 5th or 4th or 3rd or 2nd or 1st? Maybe, maybe. But like, that's okay. It's certainly still there. It's certainly still there. And I think it gets to a point where it actually starts to seep inside of your own ambition a little bit. And you go, I'm believing my own reverse hype in a way.

Yeah, it's nothing. Yeah, I'll just, I'll sort of keep it where it is. I don't want to make waves, get too big for my boots, have notions. you know, be a keynote, et cetera. And, like, trying to work through that, I think, is a really interesting challenge. To be honest, I still think it's there. Like, I'm doing the thing in spite of it, not because of it. Yeah.

I'm like, in a way, it's a good thing to keep an eye on. Not to have a runaway ego. Yeah. And I think that's the sort of, what, the ego, the super ego, the ed, like, all of those things balancing each other out. And, like, you got to keep a little bit of it in check. but you just kind of know what it is and when it's useful when is ego useful and when are you bragging versus being like grateful for what you've managed to achieve do you know what i think it might be

i think it might be a deep down belief that i'm so unlikable that i need to compensate for that unlikability by doing, by adding in additional upgrades to the personality which includes not ever why I know that for the most part there is a, you need to have like surplus

likeability to be able to have an ego. So if I don't ever display an ego, that means that the likeability that I think is probably lower, can be lower which means that I'm not going to push over and accidentally cause some sort of an issue. I think that that's, I think that's probably a big part of it. And yeah, it's interesting.

But one of the things that I certainly talk about at my live show is doing the thing in spite of not thinking that you should be able to, like doing it anyway and being able to turn up and do the Apollo or sit down with Matthew McConaughey or, you know, whatever, whatever the fuck. Or turn down Donald Trump on the podcast, like to say no to opportunities too. Do you turn it on? only podcaster that did last year no two years ago I picked the right part of the manosphere yes we did it

yes I was fucking I was so we've met twice and I'm so proud of you that rocks and I know you're like meek about like that I mean it shouldn't be a high bar

to surpass to not like interview a guy that's sort of bringing in fascism, but like, nice one, man. I think, fucking cool. It was, it was definitely a rarity to,

the media team reached out to me after the election. That's made my day. I'm sorry. This is so great. Is it really? Put the hat on. I'm going to put this on instead. So,

yeah, the media team reached out to me and they were like, you know that I think of all of the people that got offered it, the only one that said no was you. You are aware of that. And I was like, okay, I guess. I don't know. I didn't have, what am I going to,

I'm not going to get anything out of that conversation was my. Yeah, I would be far more interested in speaking to him now. And I think it's far less, um, um, um, influential and potentially, yeah,

well, it's not like world changing or cantankerous or whatever. And there's less pressure. I was like, I don't, I don't, I don't, I feel like I am going to be able to do the job that is necessary,

regardless of what you think about Trump. the guy is a generational communicator. And in the space of 55 minutes, I'm not going to be able to. I sat down with Bernie Sanders and he was like a slippery eel. And I'm like, wow, this is like rolling with the Brazilian jiu-jitsu black belt or something. They've been interviewed more times than you can even imagine. He's been in Congress longer than I've been alive. Yeah.

So I'm like, this is an unfair fight. Yeah, yeah. But anyway, saying yes to things, saying no to things, having the dreams, doing this stuff. All of that, all of that. But definitely is a good role model for, hey, you cannot believe in yourself and still make it. Yeah. Like, isn't that an incredible fucking, like, motivational thing? You know, you've got to see it before you achieve it or whatever.

It's like, hey, what about if you achieve it and you still don't see it? Because that is also a path. And far more people, I think, have got, at least in the UK, have been held back by a lack of confidence. than a lack of competence. It's like, hey, you're way better than you think you are. And there's a guy out there who's half as good as you with twice your confidence, making ten times the progress. Yeah, yeah.

Because they're just putting themselves in the right situations and going into the rooms and all the rest of the things. But yeah, you can kind of, you can just do things. You can just do things. And apparently that is kind of the same as believing in yourself. But I think you sort of have to believe in your, like, inherent, like, good stuff about, you, like, that you will keep yourself in check, you know, in, like, a way where it's like, like, like, knowing deep down, like, no, I'm like a, I'm not a bad guy. I'm not a complete

narcissist or whatever, so I can step a little bit out into the world. And, like, even if I push you with, like, everything I have to be as out there and confident as possible, like, because you've got all these worries, like, you're really, it's so unlikely that you're going to overshute. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, isn't that interesting? Yeah, it's so funny to think about the fear that you have of being that thing, meaning that you're almost certainly never going to be that thing. That line about like if you worry that you're a psychopath, you're probably not a psychopath. Yeah.

I worry about that with the autism stuff. Very similar set of symptoms. No, very similar set of symptoms. Sociopath versus autism? There's like one thing that's not the same. What's the thing? I can't remember. remember what it is, but it's like...

You're perilously close to being a sociopath. Yeah, it does feel. Do you reckon anyone's ever thought that before? Yeah, I think lots of people who aren't diagnosed with autism, before they get diagnosed with autism, they're like, like, this, I'm really worried that I'm like a... Incorrectly patent-matched. Yeah, I'm a bad person.

Yeah. Not that I don't, I don't care about other people. I don't care about whatever. Like, I don't know. That authenticity thing's really difficult, though, as well. Like, I think it's very easy for that to just make you do nothing. It's like, what do you want to do? what aligns with like who you are deep down inside?

It's like, I don't know. I've probably just want to sit in and like read my book. You know? Like, but like what? I think I have like quite bad like anxiety maybe to do with the autism stuff. So I've never been able to trust the gut thing. You know when people go like, oh, just trust your gut. I'm like, I am terrified of everything I ever do.

I'm terrified to leave the house every day. I can't. My gut is not trustworthy. It's very stressy little gut. But you just have to fuck in. If you're trying to go from Joey Chestnut to Joey Swole, the RP Strength App is the best place to start. I've been in the gym for two decades, and it wasn't until this last year that I had some of the best training sessions of my life, and R.P. Was a massive part of that.

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and get up to $50 off the RP hypertrophy app by going to the link in the description below. I heading to RPstrength.com slash modern wisdom and using the code modern wisdom, a checkout. That's RPstrength.com slash modern wisdom and modern wisdom. a checkout. But it's interesting. I've heard you talk as well about how all of the interactions

or many of the interactions that you have are kind of prefabricated. There's a response that before somebody asks me a question, I have an idea of what it is that I'm going to say already. And I think that is a way to not need to rely on instinct as much.

I think because as well, my instincts are so like intense conversationally. like I just want to ask really like difficult questions like I was hanging out with my uncle and he travels loads for work like he's all over the world doing this like big corporate thing and I was like we were just like I have an boring chat of like how is this person in the family

how is that person in the family blah blah blah blah and then I was like are you still like enjoying the travel stuff and he was like no not really and I was like oh okay like what's your and I sort of stopped myself from going, okay, well, how does it make you feel?

Like, what are you, how can you fix that? What's this? What's that? Like, I really want to interrogate people's like, and it's not to be like, I think they're wrong or they're doing the wrong thing and I want to pick it apart. It's like, I just want to like them to talk me through their thought process. And it's just so I find that so interesting, like the reasons people do things.

Also because there's often no reason. Like they haven't actually conceptualized that there are other options. And they might. like want to do something else. Momentum is a fucking hell of a restrictor on that. This is what I've always done. This is what I do, do or whatever. It's the next logical step.

Let's keep going. Yeah. Yeah, there's a cool idea of sliding versus deciding. And it's like from couples counseling stuff that you move on to the next step of the relationship. We're hanging out on an evening. And then it's a situation ship. And then it's a relationship. And then you come over a bit.

And then you got a toothbrush and you got a draw. And we're kind of living together. And now there's a golden retriever. and, oh, we should get married, and now there's a kid, and you wake up with a couple of kids and a golden matriber in a house, and you go, at no point did I feel like I decided to get into this.

And it happens with a lot of things in life. People slide through a career. Well, you know, I didn't know what to do at university, so I did business, did business studies. And then, you know, I got a job at KPMG. KPMG is great. And then, you know, I just like, you stay here. Got a promotion.

Yeah, da-da-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta. I think it's the same of comedy. Like that next. logical thing for me to do is like tour, tour, tour, tour, tour, tour, tour, tour, every year, every year, every year. Yeah, I want to try and do like no stand-up in 2027. What are you going to do instead?

Just like write scripts, maybe write a book, like just live, you know? You've got the podcast, that keeps the lights on. Build that a bit more, but like, it'd be cool to do a year of like not doing it and then really want to go back to it. Yeah. Well, also, in order for art to imitate life,

you have to live a life. Yeah. And... See comedians where all their stuff's about like airplanes? And dinners and backstages or green rooms. Yeah.

It's like, gotta get out in the world a little bit. A little bit. Where did the name... Shit yourself at the 9-11 Memorial. That's true. That was part of tour. That's great. The name, guy to parenting?

Yes. People think it was like a jab at like parenting podcasts. It truly wasn't. It was Mike and I had done like a couple of trial versions of the podcast. And we were like, okay, we're idiots. Like, we are just talking absolute shite. the whole time and it's all silly. And I was like, right, so we could call it

Mike and Vitorio's very stupid podcast. And that would be like an accurate description. But surely the naming protocols should also match the vibe of the podcast where we just name it the stupidest thing that we can think of. And we landed on Mike and Vittoria's Guide to Parenting. Do you think many people listen, hoping to find some parenting advice? We get a few messages. I've put it in the children and family section of Spotify.

It's like in people's recommended pods if they like are new parents, they like they get recommended us on Spotify. I started listening to the Manistphere version thinking that it would educate me about what to worry about for my eight-year-old son. And I was horrified at what I heard. Yeah, so we just thought it was the stupidest name. name ever and the joke answer is we're trying to attract an audience of young moms what trouble have you guys gotten into has there been anything coming out with that of like the naming thing no no no no

of the show generally the podcast yeah no I think like look every so often we get a little message where someone goes oh I didn't like that bit I didn't like this bit and we have like I think we have all sorts of people listening to the podcast and I think a lot of people think it's like guys I don't know listen to the podcast, but it's like, girls with fringes. I think there's something about like guys talking shit in like a playful, silly, fun way

is a way where I think women generally, like socially are like very good communicators and talk about their feelings. There's that kind of like hack stand-up bit of, you know, I went for a beer with my friend, we spent three hours together, I come back home and my partner goes, how is his mom?

how is his work going? Is he seeing anyone? And you're like, why would I know any of that stuff? And she's like, you spent three hours together. How did you not talk about that stuff? And they can connect emotionally and really like learn about each other and sort of love each other in that way. But I think men, while we're shit at that first one and I'm trying to get better at it,

we're good at just abstract fucking around chat and like silly fun chat. And I think like for some men listening to our podcast would be like, well I can kind of just like chat to my friends and fuck around with them and that's what this is. And that's nice when you're maybe like in a new city and you like don't have that set up yet. But I think a lot of the women that listen to the podcast are like they don't get those conversations from like their group of girlmates. And some this is all generalizations and all that stuff. You know, there's some women that are like have those conversations and have those chats or whatever. But I think like we're providing a service that like isn't as readily available to women in a way which is quite.

Like, I wasn't expecting it. We weren't targeting a demographic at all, but it was, like, exciting. Do you know the basement yard? I do. Yeah, they're so funny. So Joe Santagato was there, I don't know, last week or something. And they did Madison Square Garden, sold that out, 90% women. Unbelievable, isn't it?

I think it's probably a similar thing. It's the exact same thing. It's the exact same thing. And the sound when they walked out on stage, the screams were so loud that everyone's Apple Watches went off, warning people that they were in an unsafe noise environment. Like some fucking Harry Styles concert. Yeah. Unbelievable.

And I think like that's probably a shame. Like like why women feel like they can't be stupid or silly or fun in that way, you know? They're supposed to like, I guess they've been told they're supposed to be popping up and like responsible maybe and men have more freedom to fuck around. I definitely think when it comes to comedy podcasts, it's hard. Most of them are guy-centric about guy stuff and then begin to push into an emotional. amount of edginess that deselects for a lot of that female audience, right? Especially one of the more linear paths to pod success or online content creator success is to start to skew right if you're going to do that sort of a stuff.

I think which again deselects for a lot of the women. And it's always going to get into some kind of, you orbit Manosphere, manisphere adjacency stuff which I'm aware that you brought it up earlier on I do need to clear my name you're not in the manosphere I'm not even fucking club they hate me they hate me yeah but

I don't know you're closer than I am but I know that's not hard that's not hard I'm a little bitch with your female autism I'm a low T mustache sort of with a little earring I get called gay on the internet

every day of my whole life I don't know it's funny like it's funny Like, it's funny. Like, you, maybe, you sit in a very interesting place, I think. Like, you're not in the Manosphere. But I think to some people, they would say you're like, the nah, and I don't think you're guilty of any of that shit either, like the really problematic stuff.

But for some reason, like, maybe because you're, like, jacked. Like, is it just that you're, like, in really good shape and maybe talk about it? Or, like, because there's a end diagram of, like, talking about health and fitness and mindset and, like, those things, which does exist in a more problematic male media landscape. But I think you managed to sort of, I don't know, and unkind views, you're like the narrowest end of the wedge. Correct.

The accusation I got after me and Bartlett went viral at the start of the year was that I'm the gateway drug to the manosphere, that I'm the little pebble at the top of the avalan. Well, yeah, you start off listening to Chris Williamson, but before you know, you've pipelined your way into Nick Fuentes and Andrew. Tate. Yeah. Despite the fact that the day after the Louis Theroux documentary came out,

I managed to unite feminists and the Manistphere in agreement that the worst part of the Louis Theroux documentary was him coming on my podcast. That was what they were tweeting about the next day. It wasn't about the documentary. It was about me. It was like a full half AI written. Is it Louis coming on? Yeah.

Louis coming on my podcast got me every single, most of the people who were in the documentary weren't tweeting about the documentary. They were tweeting about me platforming Louis Theroux. Wow. That was unacceptable. But only a couple of months before, when I'd been on Bartlett, I got called the Lux Maksa, which I actually think is kind of a compliment. All of the newspaper articles about that were right-wing, Manusphere misogynist. But then when I went and did Tucker Carlson's podcast, only a couple of months before that, I was accused of being riddled with blue-pilled thinking and infected with feminist lies. There's a quote yesterday, literally yesterday on Twitter, the big reply that happened to like something I put up that was like some C.S. Lewis quote

that I thought was really like cool and cute and it like talks. It's both sides of the fence about the homemaker is the ultimate career and all other careers are just built to support that one. I was like, oh wow, this is really interesting because it's like both it's supportive, it's progressive, it's regained to old school, whatever the fuck. And someone was like more feminist bullshit. In fact, I answered that fucking question yesterday. Like when are you going to admit that all that you do is spew the exact feminist lies that

you, that are creating the problems in the world. I'm like, I'm getting ideologically spit-roasted. Because it's a difficult thing, because we, I've had like TV producers come to mine and Mike's stand-up shows and be like, do you ever worry that your audience or the type of audience that might be in the manosphere or might like have some of those in-sell tendencies or might drift towards that Andrew Tate type of thing? And I'm like, that's really the opposite of a worry for me. Because if I, because if me and Mike can get a hold of them before Tate does, then they're not going to become these sort of fucked up

like misogynist, violent, like abusive partners of these women because we make fun of those guys and we're softer and we're more open and like I think a nice thing that I try to emulate on our podcast, again, not super actively, but like, is you know Mortimer and White House gone fishing? Yes.

And how like lovely they are to each other as like older men and they're like, say each other. I love the way they say each other's names. Like, how are you going? How are you doing, Bob? It's lovely. Like, there's some Yeah, male intimacy with like, in a friendship that I think is represented on that. And these, like, TV people were like, oh, we're just not, you know,

that's a bit of a worry for us. And I'm like, but someone has to talk to these people. Someone has to talk to young men. Or else you're abandoning that to all of the influences that you have the biggest concerns about. And it's hard to talk about like young men feeling abandoned or without feeling like you're heading towards that manosphere thing. But like, I think that's why I found that benefit from the Jordan Peters and stuff. It was someone talking to me in a way that I could

understand in how I can take up a positive space in the world. It wasn't patronising. It wasn't pushing you in a direction that you felt was unethical. And it wasn't telling me I was like a piece of for being like a man. Yeah. You know? Yeah, look, I, uh, you're right. I think it is, it is definitely an interesting, whatever middle of the Venn diagram of talking about personal development, health and fitness and, and, you know, sex differences and

challenges between the sexes and birth rates and stuff like that. So I think they're important issues, but it's, the internet's really quick to pattern match. And especially if you present, yeah, maybe could like, like, fucking hell, like, you know, someone could look a little bit fruity and you're like, hmm, might be, maybe, maybe, maybe, He might swing both ways. And then this is, well, he might be, you know, he could be manosphere. But then also, again, insufficiently masculine for the manosphere because the gay accusations come thick and fast.

Do you like them coming thick and fast? Sorry. Ha, ha. Ha. Ha. One of the things, there's this great, great article that I saw the other day about grind slop. So this is, and I think, this is something that I've been feeling for a while that

1,000, you'll be episode 1,11010 or something, like a lot, right? And much of that is me as a young man going, I don't know what to do. I don't know how to operate in the world. I'm confused about emotions and I sometimes have self-doubt and I just sleep. I think I should sleep. I should probably sleep more and I should probably work out what I need to eat. And I'm going to find whoever I can get a hold of to understand that and understand myself and understand the world. around me, especially as the whatever late adolescent onset, like, whatever the opposite of

precocious development is, I'm like in my 20s starting to understand me. And, but there is a degree, at least when I have the conversations where I'm like, a lot of the 80, 20 of the development side of stuff, like how to sleep well, what a productivity strategy looks like, this is how you should eat, this is how you should train, these are how you need friends in your life and all of these things. I think a lot of that has already been covered, if not by me, then by other people. So one of the reasons that I've got this studio and we've got this big table and we're doing these episodes with lots of people is I get the sense in the age of AI that just raw information dumping is probably not more of what people need. It's probably not

more of what I need. I certainly want to learn about things and there'll be progress to make. But given that lots of that territory is already being covered by me and by other people. and I think people are feeling more alone. And I know that I, even I as somebody that's constantly around people, have that sense too. I'm like, I want to listen. I just want to listen to Matt and Shane. I just want to have a hang and, like, or I'll tune into you guys. I tune into like Jacob and Jake and just, I listen to them talk bullshit.

I just want to listen to them talk bullshit. And that's something that I'm actively sort of nudging the show in that direction. And I'm going to lose a big chunk of the audience from doing that because once, a week or once every couple of weeks, it's me and my friends sat around talking about whatever the fuck has happened. Yeah. And having that degree of male intimacy and just having a hang and not like it doesn't feel like homework. And when you've left, you go, do you don't learn anything? I had a nice time. Yeah. I had a nice time. Yeah. Yeah. And that's, it's just like an interesting pivot. And that's kind of where I'm feeling at the moment that the grind slop, like work until your eyes bleed thing.

I don't definitely been through that era, but I don't think that more of that is necessarily needed. Anyway, I don't even know what I'm saying. There's a lot of funny parodies of the sort of grind slop thing. Was it a name Doug Baldwin with the tiny little sunglasses? He was sat in that seat yesterday. Yo! Get pissed. Call the police.

That's me on the floor. He's so funny. Some of the bits that we did yesterday are fucking unbelievable. He is so funny. You know him and Timmy No Break's a partner's in a lot of things. Oh, great. Okay, cool. Yeah.

Yeah, I think he's the funniest guy. They make me laugh so much. He was here yesterday. That's so funny. Yeah, it was great. But yeah, exactly, exactly that. I have a little hope for AI. Okay.

A little white film. Like, that it'll put a premium on, like, live experiences. And music gigs, people will buy tickets for them and stand-up gigs, people will buy tickets for them because you can't trust anything that's on your phone anymore. Yeah. Because it's like, why, like, even watching the way. Winter Olympics, I was like, is this? I don't think Trump competed.

Like, you know, like, there's just something about it where you go like, it makes me, the phone is slightly giving me the heck at the minute because it's like I can't quite trust it and I just go. It already was. No one was already that much of a fan of it. No, but it's just like even the silly fun videos aren't like, you know, like, like, it's this propaganda? Cat videos, but like cat videos were like, what the

internet was sort of built on. And now you can't you don't know if it's a cat or if it's just some AI thing. So it's I think being in the real world might become back in fashion. I think so too. I mean nightclubs aren't nightclubs are dying a death right, which was my old industry for a long time. I think it's an one one nightclub a week is closing down in the UK at the moment. There's not that many to be able to go through. I'm aware in the US it'd be like fucking rounding error on the number of nightclubs. You can't get away with that many and most of them. already a bit shit. Like, you know when it is? It's when Flares closes down. That's when you know that there's a real issue. Okay. That's their patient zero for like, they're the over to window

for nightlife. They've weathered a lot of storms. They do. They have indeed. Yeah, with their light-up dance floor. Speaking of that, what's the most Belfast way that anyone's ever threatened you? Threatened me? I mean, there's like fun, like there's a thing that's happened twice now on the tour. And this doesn't feel like a threat, but it does a little bit. There's a bit. There's a in the show where I ask if anyone's from where I'm from. And I talk about, and the joke is about the naming conventions of like, some people don't say Northern Ireland because they don't agree with the fact that it exists. Some people say the North of Ireland because they think Ireland should be one whole big thing.

And that's like a big divide where Catholics would call it North of Ireland. Protestants would call it Northern Ireland. That's like I think. So I have jokes about that. And in those jokes, I go, obviously, notice I haven't named where I'm from. Because in the first chunk of the show, I don't name where I'm from. I say Belfast, but I don't name Northern Ireland there's a place.

And I say, oh, have you noticed that I haven't named it? And it happened in Newcastle upon town and it happened in Philadelphia. No, it was last night in Nashville. It happened in Nashville in Newcastle where somebody shouted out the word trench, which is the street my dad grew up on in West Belfast,

which doesn't, on the face of it, scream threat, but it's a bit like oh that's intense how did they know that like their family knows my family and in a show

that's maybe a little bit contentious about Northern Ireland stuff it's just a bit like okay noted noted was the threat scarier in Newcastle

or Nashville I would say Newcastle that felt a bit more connected to the whole thing but it feels like I was reading London Falling Patrick Radenkeef's new book

you know Patrick Grand Keefe. He wrote Say Nothing. You should read Satan Say Nothing. I think you'd really like it. Is that a hint? No. Shut the fuck up. And in it, he was talking about when he was like interviewing gangsters

who were like around this murder that the book's about. And they would always mention like his kids names and his like dog's name. It's just a little flex. We know where you're from. you are. I know exactly where you're from and who you are. French. Fucking hell.

I was thinking it was going to be some fun, jovial little, like, strange. And in fact, it's actually a private investigator guy who knows something deep and dark about. But West Belfast is so small. Like, I'm not from West Belfast, but my dad is. Right. But, like, it's a small little word. Everybody knows everybody.

There's a buddy. Paddy Galloway, good friend of mine, he, there's something about the entirety of Ireland. that seems diplomatic enough to say the entirety of Ireland the island of Ireland diplomatically also people are trying to spitball new names for the concept

of the British Isles because that claims over ship over Ireland by Britain so you can't call them the British Islands I think somebody said what if we called it the East Caribbean so Paddy so Paddy

Patty was, every single person I know that's from the island of Ireland has a story where there's some sort of family drama feud thing that goes all the way back despite the fact that England is just as old and Scotland is just as old. I don't hear, I don't know anyone that's in the, in England that's got that same kind of heritage, my family and their family and this thing in the farm next door. It just, I don't know. There seems to be. way more like ossification. Do you think it's just rurality? Maybe. Of like agricultural communities probably do, like they're more embedded in their communities and they rely on each other in their communities. If you're less cosmopolitan, you're moving and grooving around.

And that's like a sad thing about living in a city. But I try to like be connected in a city. It's like a nice thing to try and build a community living in North London. Like there's a lady. What's the community of North London like? Jewish. The, uh, there's a lady who lives in my block of flats

who's this old Italian lady and she feeds the foxes so you'll just see her in the bushes every day like throwing chicken to foxes and if she sees one of the foxes has like mange she'll phone a fox charity get medicine delivered, put it in the chicken

he's a fox lady give it to the fox she looks after the foxes and it means there's a real fox problem which is increasing I run to our block of flats because they're very well looked after by this little Italian lady and and uh

and uh but every so often she needs help sending a WhatsApp so she comes up and knocks on the door and I like fully integrated so it's like no I try to build that stuff and like I think it's really important and I'm not even doing nearly enough of it as I should but like

I think it's a really important part of life that's like like not easily fixable because it's really scary to just like say hello to somebody like on the street or your neighbor or whatever. But like it is it's doable to build it. It's nice to be needed. It's nice that that person's got something that they need you for. Yeah. Because the worst thing would be everybody else is a solo prener digital nomads, Dgen, just WhatsApp in their way through their day and you go, none of us need any of us at all. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's not fun. What do you think is something that Italian families do that British people would be?

and no, consider psychological warfare. Psychological warfare. I mean, it's maybe, so have you heard, like, so Santa has become global, but it wasn't always global, like Santa Claus. Okay. Like, you know, there was like a weird German one

called, like, the, is it the crampus or something, who, like, eats kids if they're an holiday? Like, that's instead of, like, a lump of coal, like, you just get eaten by a sort of weird goblin. Reverse Santa Claus. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think you do get nice stuff if you're good, or maybe you just avoid being eaten.

but our version is I think called Labifana and I think I fucked this up but this is what I was told where when the wise men were looking to find Jesus they were knocking on all the doors in Bethlehem

because like they looked for under a star but like that's not a good it's hardly Google Maps you know what I mean so they had the vague area that they were supposed to be in but couldn't find him so they were knocking on doors

going oh we're looking for the son of God who's to be born or like who's just been born and we're trying to find him and basically this old lady who's like like sort of an old witch type character just tells them to fuck off. But then when they leave, she feels bad and she's like, God, if that is the son of God,

like that's a pretty terrible thing that I've done not to help these guys sort of bestow gifts upon him. So what she does to cover a basis, she was like, I need to give a gift to the newly born son of God. But she obviously didn't know where he was. So she gave gifts to all the children in the whole area in the hope that one of those would be the newly born son of God. So in Belfast growing up

We would go to like a community hall With a bouncy castle and sandwiches and all this stuff And like have a fun day And then we would all sit down And an old lady dressed as a witch would come in And give us all presents Isn't that fucking mad? Is that, was that traumatic as a nervous, slightly panicky child?

No, I think I was scared by weird things. Labifana, the witch was absolutely fine It's the what's his I remember I went to Disney World when I was a child terrified of the Little Mermaid burst into tears

Of the mermaid herself or Hustler Like the mermaid herself Like the lady Like the actress or whatever The struggling actress Who's playing The Little Mermaid at Disney World Eight hours a day Yeah

Sweating and like a wig And I think I was just like Really freaked out That she didn't have legs You're overwhelmed by the fish lady Yeah, yeah, it was just a little bit much for me. Yeah, I remember I went there as well. And what was that?

What was the elevator? You're going to do the same thing. I'm terrified of saying the sentence with the name of the thing in it. The elevator that went up and down and that was the ride. Do you remember this? Tower of Terror. I'm glad that it wasn't the tower that was terrifying.

You were fine. I remember I went on that and someone's thing came loose as they fell. And there was all of this hubbub. There was a big, I mean, you know, you said if you die on a plane, there's going to be paperwork. I think there was a lot of paperwork.

Well, I haven't really done roller coasters since. Was it Alton Towers where somebody lost their leg? On Nemesis. Didn't that happen twice? Can you chat GPT? How many people got injured on nemesis at Alton Towers? The Smiler?

Yes, 16 people. The Smiler. That seems... Tough name. That seems ironic. That's a tough name. Crash the injured 16. What was, just say, what was the one where someone lost their leg?

I think it was Alden Tires. But I truly haven't been on a roller coaster since, and I don't know. It's just like, obviously you know that's a possibility, but you sort of think, I'll be hard, this check all the safety on those things. It's a great name, Bargatsy joke about, like. You're thinking of the smiler. A traveling fun fair, yeah. Fuck me.

Leg amputations too. people. They must have got crazy money. Five million. It doesn't really matter. You've lost a leg. How much for a leg? My leg. Yeah. It's a tough conundrum, isn't it? I really like my leg.

I like both of them. Equally. If you had to lose one, which one would you lose? That's... Oh, that's weird, because you know the way you like, you have your kicking foot, but then you, like, you jump off the other one. Oh, no. Which do I prefer kicking or jumping? I don't think I would be doing much jumping as like a one-legged guy. How much kicking would you be doing? Loads, I think.

You're mostly kicking, crutch, bang. I think, yeah, I think I would keep my right leg and train for the Paralympics as a one-legged football guy. I think I'd keep my right leg as well. I think that's the important one. I don't know. I've been thinking about, are you left-handed by any chance? No, because that sometimes happens, right, with, I think, autistic people have got...

Oh, really? We've swapped the... As in you're right-footed and left-handed? No, that there's a disproportionate number of people who are autistic that are also left-handed. Wow. I think. Let's Google this one. I'm worried about whatever it is, water usage or whatever it is that you're concerned about.

My left hand is essentially for show. It doesn't do anything. Well, I had a lot because when I was a percussionist, a lot of the focus of that sort of training. Just bringing the other hand up to the quality of the... Get this to stop being so fucking useless. and do nearly what you can do with this is like basically the whole thing. Dude. Double.

Wow. What's, what the fuck is that word? Echo, echolethe? Eccalalia? Eccalia. That's when you sort of repeat words.

It's sort of like audiological stems or repeat words or noises. So someone will repeat words or noises. Yeah. And they just sort of like get stuck in a loop. I get that sometimes. My girlfriend has go, hey, well, stop. What was the last time that that happened? I just got like if I like the way a word sounds,

either that I've said or somebody else has said or like in a song, I'll just be like, indigo, indigo, indigo, indigo, indigo, indigo, indigo, indigo, indigo, indigo, indigo, and she goes, that, that, that, that. Fuck, Vittorio Angeloony, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you so much for having me. This was really good. You were about to say actually. No.

Yes, you were. No? Yes, you were. I was going to say this was actively enjoying. Where should people go to check out everything you do? Victoria Angeloni on Instagram. I'm touring stand-up comedy. I don't know when this comes out, but I've got two specials on YouTube.

That's probably the best place. I always think like it's crazy after a podcast. It'll be like, buy a ticket to see me. Watch my shows on YouTube. See if you like that. And then buy a ticket if you fancy it. I can appreciate you, man. All right.

Until next time, everyone. Lovely. Dude. Look, that fun. Super fun.