Money Crimes with Nicole Lapin - INTERVIEW: Jessica Pressler, Expert on Anna Delvey

Episode Date: June 19, 2025

Journalist Jessica Pressler first broke the sensational story of Anna Sorokin—the mysterious "heiress" who scammed her way into Manhattan's elite circles. After moving to New York in 2013, 19-year-old Sorokin transformed herself into Anna Delvey, living a life of luxury funded entirely by fraud. In this interview, Jessica reveals how Anna deceived banks, hotels, and even her closest friends, and describes what it was like seeing her investigative reporting adapted into the hit Netflix series "Inventing Anna." For more on Anna "Delvey" Sorokin, check our our episode: SCAM: Anna Sorokin on Apple or Spotify. Scams, Money, & Murder is a Crime House Original Podcast, powered by PAVE Studios. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. For ad-free listening and early access to episodes, subscribe to Crime House+ on Apple Podcasts. Don’t miss out on all things Scams, Money, & Murder! Instagram: @Crimehouse TikTok: @Crimehouse Facebook: @crimehousestudios X: @crimehousemedia YouTube: @crimehousestudios To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is Crime House. A lot of people were very insistent that she was real. She had bought these dinners. She was on yachts. The audacity of it is fascinating. I don't think I've ever met anybody so unwilling to take no for an answer. [♪ music playing, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in beat, beat drops in magazine article that captured the unbelievable story of Anna Delvey Sorkin, the fake German heiress who scammed New York's elite. We covered Anna's story in an earlier episode, and you can find a link to that in the show notes for this episode.

Anna posed as a wealthy socialite in Manhattan, convincing banks, hotels, and even her own friends to fund her lavish lifestyle. Jessica didn't just report on the story, she developed relationships with a lot of the people involved, including Anna herself. Her recording ultimately inspired the hit Netflix series Inventing Anna. Crime House Studios has released its first audiobook called Murder in the Media. Told through the lens of five heart-pounding murder cases, this thrilling audiobook traces the evolving and sometimes insidious role the media has had in shaping true crime storytelling. Murder in the Media is a Crime House Original Audiobook. Find it now on Spotify.

now on Spotify. Well, Jessica, welcome to Scams, Money and Murder. Thank you so much for having me. This is exciting. A lot of great topics in that type. True. And I'd love to especially double click on the first one. So when you first heard about Anna, what struck you emotionally about her, even before you decided to report on it?

Emotionally, that's interesting. The thing that stuck out to me were the names of the people that she was involved with, like the financial institutions, Fortress, City National Bank, Gibson Dunn, the law firm. There were all these kind of big name kind of insider-y places, and she was described sort of in the tabloids as this 27-year-old nobody. So it was very interesting to me how a 27-year-old nobody from Germany by way of Russia had managed to insinuate herself into these hallowed insider institutions. How did she permeate through these storied financial and legal institutions at this so-called nobody, but also at the time we're at a backdrop

of social media influence over culture, we were post 2008 apocalyptic crash of the financial system. How do you think that made Anna's story especially potent? Yeah, well, I definitely think that her story is so much a story of the time. We were kind of in still, I guess, the very kind of easy money startup venture capitalist throwing funding at whatever to see if it sticks,

you know, hundreds of millions of dollars being handed out to people all over the place and it was very interesting and easy for me to see how somebody could just be like, well if you know Audrey Gellman is getting hundreds of millions of dollars to start The Wing which was a social club. I was actually part of, yeah. Yeah I mean it's great but you know it's like the amount of money that was kind of changing hands, the valuations these businesses were getting, were these fantasy, enormous empires that people were building overnight.

It was easy to see and interesting how somebody could look at that and be like, well, why not me? Why can't I start this kind of social club? At that time, it seemed very possible. And when you say easy money, you mean zero interest rates. So when we almost saw death in its eye with the financial collapse, the Fed lowered interest rates to near zero levels, which is done in an emergency situation. I know we're sort of nostalgic for it now, but it's done so that the world doesn't end. But it also led to this idea that anyone can raise huge valuations.

Because money was quote unquote cheap, then VCs had more of it. You could borrow really, really easily. And because they had so much of it, they had to give it to somebody. And these women were sort of the darlings of the space at the time, especially in New York.

Hearing about it is one thing, right? Or having it in the tabloids is sort of cursory. Actually pulling the threads of her story is something entirely different. So let's get into how it all started to unfold. At what point did looking into Anna stop feeling like a small curiosity and start feeling like something much bigger? I think it was just kind of calling around like Fortress, A.B. Rosen, who's this major art collector

and real estate investor. They aren't names that everyone knows, but they're the names that people in the know know. So it was very interesting to me, kind of just the amount of names that kept coming as you're pulling this thread. Every rock you looked under, there was like a whole bunch of other bold faced names, straight out from underneath it. The amount of people kind of that were involved, artists, thinking about

like Daniel Arsham, she was talking about how Christo would wrap the building at some point on Park Avenue that she was going to buy to house the Arts Foundation. I mean, Christo, I think said that he had never met her interacted with her, but a lot of people had. The amount of people involved and the scale of it, the size of the web, I guess, was very large. And that was very interesting.

Were there early pieces of that web of information about Anna that didn't really fit this scam artist narrative that made you question what story you were actually chasing in the first place? A lot of people were very insistent that she was real, that this was this really rich woman that they had seen. She had bought these dinners. She was on, that this was this really rich woman that they had seen. She had bought these dinners. She was on yachts. They were like, well, we saw it with our own eyes.

I know that she has money coming from somewhere. Maybe her father's an oligarch. I know that she couldn't have possibly been a scam artist. Even at the time that she's in Rutgers Island, you know, I can't really believe it because they've seen it with their own eyes. That was an interesting facet of it. People were just kind of like unwilling to like believe that they had been fleeced in that way. Was there something that Anna wanted you to believe about her that you found

particularly clever or calculated? She really wanted to be respected for being clever and calculated for sure. And she was very adamant that she was going to do this project. She wasn't trying to get this multimillion dollar loan to run away with the money. She really wanted to start the business. She really believed that this arts foundation that was named after her was a great idea and that it could have taken off. And she wanted people to respect

that she had assembled this great team. And she really frankly had assembled a great team. And as it happened, the building on Park Avenue that she was looking at turned into a very similar venue, became Photographieska, which is basically an arts club type thing with a restaurant and a coffee shop and all of the things that she was imagining. She really wanted respect for her intelligence

and her savvy in that way. Did you ever have a moment where you thought maybe she's not a villain? Yeah. Entirely something else? She obviously did some things that were unconscionable, but the way that she talks about it, she was going to pay people back.

She was going to make this business successful. This was just the path that she was taking. And again, like going back to the time that we're in and people's origin stories, it's like, yeah, if she had succeeded, if she had built the arts club, if she had paid people back, then her lying about her identity would have just been like a funny story that she told that was like part of her success story, part of her origin myth.

So I think there was an element of like, is it her that is the problem or is society the problem that we allow this kind of thing to flourish that we want to believe. Yeah, we've covered so many of these stories on this show and I think there's a moment of fake it till you make it. Elizabeth Holmes is an example. If she had actually figured that out, you know, this wouldn't be a story. There's always a pitching process and like a fabrication within business and fundraising. And when you actually pull it off, there's no scam. You know, there are no half truths here. It's just looking back,

like you said, it's an amusing part of the whole story, but she didn't see it to fruition, of course, and that meant that you had to navigate a crazy maze of conflicting accounts and shifting alliances and stories and tales from her and everybody around her. I'd love to hear more about the reporting process behind the scenes. What was the hardest part of building trust with somebody whose entire story was built around deception? Because of her being in the position that she was in, being in jail and accused of fraud, she was never like a reliable source. So there was a lot of triangulation that had to happen. Like she would tell me something happened and I would have to check it out in as many possible ways.

I do think she mostly did tell me the truth in a lot of ways. Most of her lies were sort of lies of omission, which is clever sort of. She's not really lying about things. It's more like she's just not telling you, actually my dad is a truck driver. And also she was very hard to reach at the time that I was interviewing her.

Really early on she was at Rikers Island. I couldn't call her, she had to call me. I could go out there, but a lot of the time I could only take paper notes. I only had like one or two recorded interviews. So most of the information that I got about her came from other people. Yellow is so expected.

Ooh, pink is fun, but is it too whimsical? Priya oversees procurement for 900 bank branches. The experts at Grand & Toy provided supply solutions that get each branch all the tech, furniture, and office supplies they need with seamless coordination. What about Green? Green says we're serious, but not stuffy. With the big things taken care of, she can sweat the color of the Post-It notes. Can a bank be whimsical? Don't overthink it. Go to grandandtoy.com to connect. Don't overthink it. Go to grandandtoy.com to connect.

Do you have a soft spot for her? Like, do you feel as if she was embarrassed that her father was a truck driver? Do you feel like this came from an honest, good place that somehow got mutilated in the mean streets of New York and society? I don't know. I mean, I do have a soft spot for her for sure. At this point, like, we've kind of been through a lot. I guess we did the whole, like, Netflix series and all of that.

I feel like I've seen her evolve a lot. And I have a lot of respect for her in a way, because she has been through a crazy. I mean, Rikers Island is a crazy place for a 27-year-old girl to be like. I mean, she's tough. Surviving that, I don, she's tough surviving that. I don't think I could handle that.

And now she's out. She's very strong and I don't think she is embarrassed about her father being a truck driver. I think there are things that embarrass her. The things that embarrass her. She worries that people think she's an idiot or that she's just like a greedy idiot. And she really wants to be seen as a business woman and an intelligent person. It was part of the era and I think that getting caught up in that potentially was part of it.

But when you first found out you mentioned that you guys continued to get to know each other and spend a lot of time together through Netflix. When you first found out that Shonda Rhimes wanted to adapt your work, what did you think? I was really curious to see how that was going to go. I guess that was my major. I was like, well, this will be really interesting because I knew about Scandal and Grey's Anatomy and I was like, this is just going to be an interesting ride.

Let's see where this goes. That was pretty much my feeling about it, to tell you the truth. And it was. And it was. Yeah. Sounds like it was. How did you feel seeing yourself, your own role dramatized on screen? And did it match any of the way you remember living it? Yeah. I mean, it's a really clever show in that so much of it is true.

So much of it is details that she kind of pulled out of conversations with people, with me, with other people. So much of it is true and then it also looks really different. Like the experience of how you view yourself and the movie of yourself in your mind is like different from how somebody else's perception. So it's very like uncanny in a lot of ways to see that play out on screen.

It was fun. I was involved throughout the process as they were writing the scripts. It wasn't like a surprise to me or anything like that. And it was just really interesting to see it. Did you have a say about who played you? Oh, no. No, no, they didn't ask.

I found out kind of when everybody else found out, it's like, oh, okay. And what did you think? Because I think we all sort of think about who would play us. Yeah, I was really more worried honestly about the other people and if they were happy. There were so many other people involved. There was Neff, the concierge, there was Casey Duke,

the trainer, Anna's lawyer, Todd Spodek, who I adore. I was much more concerned about. They were happy and all of this at that point. Because I had gotten to know all of them and Anna over a long period of time. It was nice that we were on that ride together. Was there anything that they cut out that you wish made it into the show or? Oh, that's interesting. I don't think so. No, I don't really recall seeing it and wishing that there had been something that they'd included something.

Or was there anything cringe? You're like, oh. that they'd included something. Or was there anything cringe? You were like, ooh. I was pregnant when I was reporting the story, but my water did not break on the office floor. I just feel like everyone should know that. It's disgusting to tell you the truth. You know, it's a funny thing.

Like I love them so much. They were so kind and respectful of everybody involved. Truly, they were very thoughtful, kind of attached to all the characters. I believe that they truly, really liked us all and wanted to do right by us. I have no negative feelings about it at all. Having my first child a few months ago,

I thought that water breaking was a big dramatic moment just because I've seen that happen in all TV and movies. It wasn't at least for me. I know it's the way that you show I think I'll need that somebody's gonna have a baby like it makes sense. I mean all of those kinds of decisions that's the other thing it's like a magazine article or something it's like when you're watching these things the action is compressed there are a lot of things about it that were true in spirit I will say even if they weren't like to the letter. Was there anything that you saw laid out there about the reporting process that made you think maybe I should have approached this differently

knowing what I know now? I think an embarrassing thing about the show, I think this is true, in my recollection, is that I think it's true that I didn't look at Instagram right away. Do you think dramatizing generally stories like this, like Anna's, risks glamorizing the people that we set out to hold accountable? I always remember that I interviewing Michael Lewis about Liar's Poker. And he was very surprised when Liar's Poker came out and people took it as like kind of a playbook for how to live and work on Wall Street.

And it was a huge hit with Wall Street people. And he's like, I was thought that I was telling everybody how terrible this was. And instead it just became like the Bible for these people. And so that is a bit of an alarming reaction. Yes, I find it kind of disturbing that Anna has kind of been perceived like a hero in a lot of ways. I think overall it texturizes these characters that we see as scam artists, but are human

and have layers and contours. And we definitely saw that. I mean, Anna's story has now lived so many lives from the show to articles to maybe even another movie or a show. Who knows what's going gonna happen in the future. She's definitely fascinated a lot of people. If we zoom out, do you think a story like Anna's could happen again today, or would it play out differently?

Yeah, judging from my inbox, which is just all scans all the time. I mean, yeah, I do think that. In terms of what we were talking about earlier, I think there is like more due diligence or just kind of more aware that they might be embarrassed if they end up in a situation like this. But yeah, I mean, I think that the scam is alive and well and bigger than it's maybe ever been. It's sort of become the way that we live.

Like everybody's kind of encouraged. I'm curious, like you do this show about this. I'm sort of like, just feels like everyone's scamming on some level at this point. You know, everybody's on Instagram showing a version of their life that is better than the real version. And everybody's kind of doing fake it till you make it, the real version and everybody's kind of doing fake it till you make it, presenting themselves in a certain way. The reaction to Anna was about that. It was like, we're all doing this. Of course, this is our hero, of course. Like, even though she went to jail. That's the weird part about it. It's like she didn't actually succeed at this scam. You guys realize that, right? Like she went to jail. Like she didn't do a good job. She got caught. Do all these stories sound the same to you?

They all have different gradients. What you touched on was the fact that maybe we're all scammers in certain ways. There's definitely a gradient and once you reach a certain level, it's illegal. And at what point does her ruse and the timing of it actually veer into the illegal territory or not? Because if she had pulled something else together, I feel like to your point, we've seen this with entrepreneurs time and again when they're raising money

and they're talking about the next big thing, there is a dance. You're trying to sell a thing, but you need to get the money to sell the thing. And so it's almost like a catch-22. You need the story to get the money. You need the money to get the product. I think the timing really matters for how these stories end up playing out. And I think that whoever is the Anna of tomorrow is not going to play out exactly the same as the Anna of yesterday. Right. Right. We're not going to see, God forbid, a shoe bomber go on an airplane, even though we have to take our shoes off.

They're going to pick something else. We've safeguarded. We know that the shoes are a thing. The next person that wants to bring something on a plane, I doubt is going to use the shoes. So in the same way, the next Anna is going to look different. It's always just exploiting loopholes. Hotels are not going to let people stay without putting down the credit card after this. They learn their lesson. I can't believe that happened.

I know. Yeah. She was so convincing in that. The fact that you say that some of these institutions like City National or maybe even larger hotel chains might not want to be embarrassed or egg on their face. Let's double click on that. Do you think that these institutions that were scammed were so embarrassed that something like that happened to them with all their so-called safeguards that they just wanted it to go away? Oh yeah. I mean, half of the hotels wouldn't return my calls. Partly I think they didn't want to give people kind of a playbook of how to do this

by describing in detail what had happened. The embarrassment level was so high. I mean when you think about it with Anna in particular, it's like the kind of loopholes that she exploited was she hit these, the most image conscious people that you can imagine. Like high finance, like Wall Street people, fashion people, art people, these are all people

who their reputation and their image is so important to them and so meaningful to them and so integral to their business. Their clients' ability to trust them were so important to them. The lawyers, for instance. You said that your inbox is full of scams or scam stories. You're probably known as the scam reporter. Are you seeing any trends with who the next Anna could be?

Are we seeing a new world with AI or are we seeing what's happening? Who's gonna scam us next? Anytime there's anything that's new that comes along that's really big and there's a lot of money in it, it's new, like that becomes the thing, right? The biggest trend in my inbox weirdly is the amount of people who are like, I was scammed and it was my husband or my wife. So many stories that people are like, and this person I was married to is a scammer. I don't know what that's about.

That's dark. But yeah, I think that the AI, the crypto of it all, I almost can't get into it because it feels so much to me like the same story with different people, the same actors just kind of coming up again and again in those spaces. Do you see somebody that's in the tabloids now that feels reminiscent of previous Anna? Oh my god, yeah. And they just get crazier and crazier, the stories. I mean, that is the really weird thing was this always going on and

We weren't so aware of it. Is this the scammy-est moment in history? Or you know was this always happening? We're only kind of just paying attention to it because it did feel like Between Elizabeth Holmes the fire festival and an Delvey, the scam thing kind of exploded in that moment. It was like the Threza trend type of thing. And after that, it just felt like every story was a scam story. So I don't know if we're just paying more attention to them or we're living through the scammiest moment in human history, which I mean, now that I'm saying it, we clearly are.

I didn't realize Anna's connection to the Fire Festival guy. Isn't that the best? They briefly live together, roommates. It's a beautiful thing. I think she just ignored him. I think she lives there and kind of the reports that I got from the magnesis, it's remembering I had a credit card called like magnesis and it was a black MX for millennials. It's also the scam as old as time that people pretend to be part of fancier families with the Tinder Swindler guy and people saying that they're a Rockefeller and you don't totally know or check.

In the case of the Tinder Swindler, he had an elaborate story of being part of this family. So I think that's one that probably will never go out of style. Oh yeah, I know the drifter who comes in from out of town, appearing very wealthy, it's a great American story. You know, I mean, this is the land of like invention and reinvention and it makes sense that this is

the story that we tell over and over again. How often do you talk to Anna now? I haven't talked to her in a while. We get along. We will still text occasionally. I don't really need to be a bigger part of her story, I guess. I'm content to watch from afar, I guess. What do you think about some of her antics since the show? She's running with her notoriety.

She could have done so many things differently. She could have pled guilty and gone home back to Europe years ago, changed her name and done something totally. She could be living a totally different life, right? But instead she really leaned into it. I think it's really interesting. I think like it's working obviously.

The audacity of it is fascinating. And I think a little bit admirable. Like that's the other thing about these scam stories that I think that is very appealing is that a lot of us kind of wish that we just had the confidence and the guts to go for it in this way. Her tenacity, I don't think I've ever met anybody so unwilling to take no for an answer. I mean, I was joking at

the beginning of this that she's the last immigrant with a criminal record to not be deported. I mean, she will just not let it happen. I think she's been on the tarmac about to be deported. An appeal will come through. She pushes and pushes. She gets lawyers on the phone. She gets, I got a call kind of recently from a very well-known, very well-respected PR person

who was like, Anna called me, like, should I work with her? And I'm like, people are still taking the calls. I mean, I feel like she's kind of at a higher echelon than ever. It's amazing. I mean, good luck to her. And how is she paying the PR people? I'm assuming she's making some money, some legit money now. She was doing art for a while and kind of having these art auctions and she's auctioning off NFTs, which I just don't even understand at all, if I'm being honest. I think she's done like some ad campaigns for people, Dancing with the Stars,

I think was like a six figure salary for not that much. I think she's living with Kelly Catrone, who's a fashion publicist, last I heard. She's hustling, she's hustling. Did the Dancing with the Stars thing surprise you? Only in that you're like, wow, life is really like this. That's a joke that someone would have made early on in my life. Oh, she'll end up on Dancing with the Stars. And in fact, yes, I remember people being like, oh, she's going to

end up in a Marc Jacobs campaign. If there was something that you could ask Anna today, one more question, knowing everything that you know now, what would it be? One of the things that keeps her appeal going is that Anna does not give a lot of information. She keeps stuff pretty close to the best. She'll say these outrageous things,

like I didn't learn anything on Dancing with the Stars, or I'm not sorry to the New York Times. She doesn't give a lot. And I think that she has this mysterious quality that people want to know and see more. Is that intentional? I think it is actually. I think it is intentional.

Yeah. I think she allows others to project onto her a little bit. It's worked for her. So that's very interesting. So yeah, I don't have questions for her because I just know she wouldn't give me a satisfying answer. Do you think that it's all calculated as part of her image? The way she is enigmatic or the way she shows up

or has she just pivoted as she went? I think pivoted as she went, 100%. Then it's sort of become a little bit more of like, this is working for me type of thing. I don't know if you've seen this movie, like old movie called Being There. This guy is like a gardener. I mean, this is a terrible, but he's like an idiot.

He just doesn't say anything and people are like, oh my God, he's so quiet and so wise. And I think he like becomes president of the United States. It's just like the people just project onto him He just doesn't say anything and people are like, oh my God, he's so quiet and so wise. And I think he like becomes president of the United States. It's just like the people just project onto him like that his silence is wisdom. And I think that there's an aspect of that with Anna where she just doesn't say that much

and people are like, wow, that's so mysterious and interesting and I wanna know more. What do you hope readers now, viewers and listeners ultimately take away from the Anna Delphi story beyond the headlines? That's a really good question. I think that when I wrote the story at the time, I was more horrified that the institutions

had allowed themselves to be taken in this way and I was more outraged. That was kind of my feeling at the time. And now, I mean, I do feel like it's like the liar's poker thing where people took away a totally different thing. What I intend them to take away from it, I guess, is the answer. When there are legitimate people really needing help

and people just brazenly push their way through, it's depressing. I mean, again, I think it's like the 2018, it was a bit of a different time. I do feel like a little bit more revolted by the reaction to lionizing Anna as a hero. It's like haunted me a little bit. I don't think she's like a bad person. I think that the fact that she was kind of taken to be this folk hero type of person, what do I want people to take away from it? I'm like, I don't know, they're taking away things from it that I never intended them to take away from it.

Obviously, this was wrong. It was stupid. She went to jail. Don't do crime. I think I'd like that. I'd like people to take that away from it. Don't do crime. It's not doesn't pay But then you look at it. You're like wait does it? In her case maybe it kind of did don't do crime kids don't do crime don't do drugs Don't do crime even though like her sarsaparilla ankle bracelet. Oh my god the ankle monitor I know like that glorifies it. It does. I mean this is why I'm sort of useless to you guys I'm sorry because I kind of like had to stop paying attention to like all scammy stuff it just became very overwhelming. I'm impressed that

you deal with it like on a day-to-day basis. It's so overwhelming and it's so nauseating. Thank you again. Thank you again. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for listening. I'm your host, Nicole Lappin. Scams, Money and Murder is a Crime House original. Join me every Thursday for a brand new episode. Here at Crime House, we want to thank each and every one of you for your support. If you like what you heard here today, reach out on social media at CrimeHouse.

Don't forget to rate, review, and follow Scams, Money, and Murder wherever you get your podcasts. Your feedback truly makes a difference. And for ad-free listening plus early access and bonus content, subscribe to CrimeHouse Plus on Apple Podcasts. Scams, Money, and Murder is hosted by me, Nicole Lapnin, and is a CrimeHouse original powered by PAVE Studios. This episode was brought to life by the Scams, Money and Murder team, Max Cutler, Ron Shapiro, Alex Benedon, Stacey Warnker, Sarah Kamm, Paul Lebesquen, and Victoria Asher. Thank you so much for listening. [♪ music playing, fades out.

[♪ music playing, fades out. [♪ music playing, fades out. [♪ music playing, fades out. [♪ music playing, fades out. [♪ music playing, fades out. [♪ music playing, fades out. [♪ music playing, fades out. [♪ music playing, fades out.

[♪ music playing, fades out. [♪ music playing, fades out. [♪ music playing, fades out. [♪ music playing, fades out.