Money Crimes with Nicole Lapin - INTERVIEW: NXIVM with Sarah Edmondson

Episode Date: September 4, 2025

What happens when a seemingly positive self-help group turns out to be a sinister financial and psychological scam? In this episode, Nicole dives deep into the world of NXIVM with former member Sarah Edmondson. She recounts her journey from an eager student and recruiter to a key figure in the cult's downfall. We explore NXIVM's deceptive multi-level marketing structure, the cycle of financial debt it created, and the secrets that lay hidden behind its public facade. For resources about cults, visit: https://alittlebitculty.com/resources Scams, Money, & Murder is a Crime House Original Podcast, powered by PAVE Studios. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. For ad-free listening and early access to episodes, subscribe to Crime House+ on Apple Podcasts. Don’t miss out on all things Scams, Money, & Murder! Instagram: @Crimehouse TikTok: @Crimehouse Facebook: @crimehousestudios X: @crimehousemedia YouTube: @crimehousestudios To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey there, it's Nicole Labman, host of the Crimehouse Original scams, money, and murder. If you are loving this show, you don't want to miss our fellow crimehouse original podcast, conspiracy theories, cults, and crimes. Every Wednesday, you'll get to explore the true stories behind the world's most shocking crimes, deadly ideologies, and secret plots, from mass suicides and political assassinations to secret government experiments and UFO cults. Follow conspiracy theories, cults, and crimes now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you listen. And for ad-free listening and early access to episodes, subscribe to Crime House Plus on Apple Podcasts. This is Crimehouse. People had called us a cult for many years, and I always joked it off, laughed it off, saying, well, this is a cult, it's happy, successful people.

people and I look at my life, it's great. What I didn't know is that if you're open, you can actually fully replace the foundations of someone's belief system. My world unraveled very fast, and it was a massive betrayal, and it was very destabilizing and ungrounding because I'd been vouching for this guy for 12 years. As they say, money makes the world go round. What many don't talk about is the time it made people's worlds come to a screeching halt. Whether it's greed, desperation, or a thirst for power, money can make even the most unassuming people do unthinkable things, and sometimes those acts can be deadly. This is scams, money, and murder, a crimehouse original. I'm your host, Nicole Lapin. Every Thursday, we alternate between covering infamous money-motivated

crimes and gripping interviews with the experts or those who were directly involved themselves crime house exists because of you please rate review and follow scams money and murder wherever you get your podcasts and for early ad-free access and bonus content subscribe to crimehouse plus on apple podcasts grab a coffee and discover vagus level excitement with BenMGM Casino. Now introducing our hottest exclusive, Friends, the One with Multi-Drop. Your favorite classic television show

is being reimagined into your new favorite casino game, featuring iconic images from the show. Spin our new exclusive, because we are not on a break. Play Friends, the One with Multidrop, exclusively at BenMGM Casino. Want even more options?

Pull up a seat and check out a wide variety of table games from Blackjack to poker, or head over to the arcade for a nostalgic, Casino Thrills. Download the BetMGM Ontario app today. You don't want to miss out. 19 plus to wager. Ontario only. Please play responsibly. If you have questions or concerns about your gambling or someone close to you, please contact Connects Ontario at 1866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor.

Free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with Eye Gaming Ontario. What's better than a well-marbled rib-eye sizzling on the barbecue? A well-marbled ribby sizzling on the barbecue that was carefully selected by an Instacart shopper and delivered to your door. A well-marbled rib-eye you ordered without even leaving the kitty pool. Whatever groceries your summer calls for, Instacart has you covered. Download the Instacart app and enjoy $0 delivery fees on your first three orders. Service fees, exclusions, and terms apply. Instacart, groceries that over-deliver.

Nexium presented itself as a groundbreaking personal development program dedicated to helping people unlock their true potential. It attracted high achievers, artists, and philanthropists who were drawn in by the promise of a supportive community and the vision of making the world a better place. Its founder was hailed by followers as a genius, a philosophical visionary who held the keys to human growth. My guest today, Sarah Edmondson, was an actress who spent over a decade as a high-ranking member of Nexium. She even recruited people to Nexium, firmly believing she was helping them find happiness and purpose. But what began as a journey of self-improvement turned into something completely different. Sarah, welcome to Scams Money and Murder. Thank you so much for having me.

Thank you so much for being here to share your story. I'd like to just start with your life before Nexium. What was that like? Well, those first 27 years were fairly normal. My parents were and still are very loving, supportive people. They are both in the mental health profession. My mom's a family therapist. My dad was a school counselor at the time. Say they were kind of former hippies, left-leaning, politically, socially active, instilled some really good values into me, including things like make the world better, you know, make it better than when you came. You too can change the world and have an impact. have a voice and things like that. So that's sort of one key component I like to share when sharing my background because that plays into what happened later. I was also very small growing up. I was a late bloomer. I was little and kind of nerdy and had these big red glasses and braces. I wasn't the popular kid and looked for belonging and wanted to fit in more. It was only child until I was nine when my dad remarried and then I had a brother. But we didn't live in the same

house. So I always felt kind of alone and I think that also fueled things that came later. I pursued acting. I thought that would be a way for me to have a platform and to have a voice. And it was also at a time where technically I was a working actor, but it wasn't really hitting my big goals in terms of financial success or big roles on the TV show. So those are the kind of things that was going on. I was a theater nerd. I was kind of crunchy granola, Pacific Northwest vibes. you know, Birkenstocks, things like that, still were Birkenstocks, actually. But I think it's important that you mentioned that you were very familiar with the world of self-help and self-actualization. So what were you hoping to find, do you think, at this point,

this sort of crossroads in your life and career when you first encountered the organization? I was very open to self-help and seminars. My mom had actually put me into an anger management program when I was 16 because I was going through sort of normal teenage angsty stuff. When I was 27, I was at a crossroads in my career as an actor and also at a time in my relationship at that particular point, not the person I'm with now, but the serious relationship before that, where there was just challenges, normal communication challenges and also really feeling like there was more for me than the acting opportunities. I felt that I had a purpose greater than what I was currently doing. So that really set me up for success to join a cult, really, because I also did believe it was possible to, grow. And I think there's a lot of people out there that don't think that. I guess you call it a growth mindset. So that in combination with my desire to be a part of something, you know, when I met Mark Vassente, this filmmaker, and he told me about the community, I thought it sounded great. And truly, if it was what it was supposed to have been, it would have been great. But it

wasn't that. So what did he pitch you on? He said he went through this program and it really changed his life. Yes. And just for the record, Mark went along this journey with me. He didn't know what it was actually. So it was what it was to him, which was a community of like-minded humanitarians, people wanting to change the world, a lot of artists and filmmakers and people who were working together to support each other and their goals. He didn't really have to tell me too much. All I knew was that I loved his film, what the bleep do we know, which was huge at that time. And it was like, whatever he was doing, I'm down for it. If he's like, yeah, we're going to go drink smoothies with these people, I'll be like, sure, go do yoga over it.

Like, it was sort of like, okay, let's just do this thing. I didn't Google it. Big mistake. He was, yeah, a real guy. Like, you met in a setting of really successful people. And that makes all the sense of the world. So you didn't Google, but later were there red flags that you would have seen if you had searched the organization? Yeah.

I think if I Googled, I probably would have been a little bit more hesitant doing my first five day. But there wasn't a ton of stuff online at that point, not like there is now. There was a couple articles, but I didn't look at those until day one of my first five-day when things were definitely weird. And I had red flags right from the moment I walked in. And I contacted Mark and said, what did you get me involved with? And he did to me what I ended up doing to other people, which was, you know, you're going to trust what somebody says on the internet who's never taking the curriculum versus your experience?

What's your experience? And I was like, well, truthfully, this is all a little bit weird. You know, we're calling this guy Vanguard. We have to wear sashes. We're bowing to somebody who I've never met. Basically, his response was, I totally get it. Those things were weird, but wait till day three and then decide. And what happened on day three?

Well, by day three, and I didn't know this at the time, if you're open and wanting to grow, which I was, and not like completely closed off, which, you know, it was for the first day. But I also wanted to get my money's worth, and I paid a lot of money. I made like over two grand. It was like 2160, which at the time, like for me, my rent was like $400 a month. It's like months and months of rent. And there's, you know, no refund. So I was like I'm going to get my money's worth. By day three, what I didn't know is that if you're open, you can actually fully replace the foundations of someone's belief system. So by day three, I had like a complete different perspective of not only myself, but the world and also very positive shifts in terms of who I was. why I wasn't reaching certain goals, what was going on in my relationship at the time. It's like I had a very clear understanding of like all the things I struggled with and what I needed to do to change it. By day five, especially, I was like, okay, I'm in. I want to be a coach. I want to bring this to Canada. I want everyone. I know to take this. I was on fire. You drank all the Kool-Aid. All the Kool-Aid. Yes. And what's crazy about red flags is that

when you're first going through it, you don't even know that they're red flags. You don't know to pick up on something like that. You can't see them. Of course we can in hindsight. But looking back, what do you think some of those big red flags started to be? One of my favorite lines is, yes, I saw red flags, but I thought I was going to a carnival. So there were things that made me very uncomfortable. But one of the things that the facilitators did, and later I was trying to do the same thing, is to say, you know, you're here to grow, you spent a lot of money. You're going to hit issues. You're paying money to work on your issues. So when you hit those things, you're going to be out of your comfort zone and you'll have the urge to bolt, to leave. Now, what that's saying

is you're going to be uncomfortable, which is true. And this is the thing is there is some truth in that. Like even in therapy, if therapist is getting close to like some core wounds, it doesn't necessarily feel good. So their suggestion is to override that. Now, that's very dangerous because I had many intuitive hits from the beginning that this was weird and not a good place for me. But I overwrote it, partly because I had Mark's voice in my head going, just wait till day three. And, you know, like, what could possibly happen in the conference room of a holiday inn? Right? Like, you're just sitting here.

There's something dangerous happening around me, which was true. So I overwrote a lot of things, but there was a lot, let's just see, like some specific red flags. Yeah, calling Keith Vanguard and Nancy Prefect. and the sashes and being asked to sit and wait and not go to the bathroom if we needed to. I mean, it breaks every few hours, but it was more just like you're starting to be obedient is one of the very first things. In fact, I'd say the red flag that happened even before I joined is once I said I wanted to take the curriculum where I met Mark Vesente. There was this woman rushing around after me with some paperwork to sign the papers to get the 48-hour discount. And I was like, I'm going to do it.

And she's like, well, do it now and you'll get the discount. Otherwise, you might not have the opportunity, like using pressure tactics to get me to sign up. That was a red flag that I missed. I guess the main red flag is asking us to override our intuition to do it was right. That would be the day one. Yeah, but you didn't even have that language, I'm sure. No. At the time, pressure tactics.

Like, now you know, of course. Now I know, yes, which is why I keep doing these podcasts because I want other people to have the language that I didn't have. We've been talking about the initial red flag Sarah saw and how she rationalized them away. But what's crucial to understand is that nexium was meticulously designed to exploit these rationalizations. It operated less like a spiritual retreat and more like a finely tuned multi-level marketing scheme. But instead of selling products, it sold a lifestyle. If anyone said it exists an MLM, the response was, well, MLMs are inherently unethical. therefore this is not an MLM or have products yeah like Mary Kay or whatever yes well I just thought

I think that's so funny that that was sort of our line the idea was like because Keith is such an ethical humanitarian of course he wouldn't create an unethical product therefore it was not an MLM but yeah it was set up like an MLM you were invited to take a training and whoever invited you would be your sponsor and then if you wanted to take a training and then go home and not do anything else, I'd be fine. And there are lots of people who did that, who just took a five-day training. And I guess they would have said, that's the product. So let's say I invited you, Nicole, and Nicole takes a five-day, and they're like, this is amazing. I want to be a coach like you are, Sarah, and I'd be great. All you need to do is enroll two people. So then you'd enroll two people.

And once you had, then you could apply to be a coach. So being a coach meant you were also what they called growing your organizations. It's the same thing as in pyramid schemes and MLMs. And then there was different levels of growth. Like if you wanted to become a proctor, which is the level of orange sash, where you actually can earn income from teaching or facilitating or doing any of the career paths within nexium, you would have to have one of or two, I don't remember all the details anymore. It's been a while. But I think it was two of your people become coaches. And you would have their people grow people. So you'd have 17 people overall that you were growing to become a proctor.

And there was a similar standards to be met for senior proctor and counselor and senior counselor, all the different ranks, which are totally the same as like gold, diamond, emerald in every single MLM. And what was the financial incentive or kickback for bringing on new people? It changed it throughout. So actually, when I signed up, I didn't know this, but I found out at my first five day that if I were to recruit or like they called it enroll, which was synonymous and Xem for building humanity, by the way. So if I were to build humanity by bringing in three people, I could get a refund for my five-day, which I did because I am a natural enroller. I'm very good at telling people, you know, oh, I'm doing this green juice cleanse or I'm taking yoga over here. I just, you know, I love to give unsolicited advice. It's a problem of mine.

I'm working on it. So I, of course, was telling all my friends, you need to take this program. It's so good. And, of course, I brought my three people in and I had my money back and I said, keep it. I want to use that to take more curriculum. So I use that refund to take the next chunk of training because, of course, it wasn't just the five-day, which is what I thought I was signing up for. It's actually the beginning of an 16-day training.

And of course, it doesn't end there. That's just level one. Then there's level two. At least every year, there was new programs that Keith was rolling out. And as a leader, I had to take more and more and more curriculum. So I was spending so much money. So it was incentive for me to finance my education with Nexium, which is to recruit. So I did my three people, and then they're like, wow, you're doing so well.

If you bring in six people, you can become a salesperson. So a salesperson meant that you would get, I think, 20%. So if they spent, you know, 2,000, whatever, on a training, you'd earn 500 bucks. So it's pretty good commissions for sales. And that was what I ended up doing. I ended up doing that until I became a proctor. And then with proctor, you also get 10%. I mean, I could spend a whole hour just going into the finances.

I know that's one of the themes of your podcast, but the financial mind, can I swear on this podcast? Go for you. Okay. The financial mind fucker of it all is pretty crazy because what I've since learned is that with MLMs, psychologists know that the average person will bring in, I think it's like 2.8 people is the average. Obviously, you can't bring in eight tens of a person or whatever the math is, but that's

the average. So for me to bring in six people to become a salesperson, like I was one of the few who could do that. And I'm not trying to brag about that as a skill set. Like, I'm not proud that I'm good at it. It's just one of the things that I'm good at. So then they used me as a golden child, sort of like the poster girl for like, well, Sarah can do it. You can do it. And most people couldn't hit those numbers. So they were like struggling to hit the salesperson quota. Six people in six months. So one person a month, you have to bring in. And you have to maintain that in order to keep running your percentage. So most people were kind of treading water,

are bringing in what Keith called, you know, fresh meat to the company, not earning their percentage, but who's earning the percentage, the people above, right, which is usually what the sort of scam element is of these pyramids, is that the people at the top are making the money, and then there's a bunch of worker bees struggling. And it's also why most people didn't get to the next level of coach or proctor because they couldn't hit those milestones. They may have been excellent coaches, wonderful rapport, able to help people through their goals. But if they weren't good recruiters, they would stagnate. on that path.

With Amex Platinum, access to exclusive Amex pre-sale tickets can score you a spot track side. So being a fan for life turns into the trip of a lifetime. That's the powerful backing of Amex. Pre-sale tickets for future events subject to availability and vary by race.

Terms and conditions apply. Learn more at amex.ca. You can get protein at home or a protein latte at Tim's. No powders, no blenders, no shakers. Starting at 17 grams per medium latte, Tim's new protein lattes, Protein without all the work

at participating restaurants in Canada Nexia members were incentivized to recruit but the system was designed so that only a fraction of people actually made money. The vast majority were caught in a cycle of dependency constantly spending on new trainings and seminars to keep their status,

often going into massive debt in the process. And this financial dependence was a key component. of the psychological control. Even for somebody like me who's one of the few that did make money, I still spent like hundreds of thousands of dollars, so much money on curriculum. Even like the higher level stuff that came later,

I was there for 12 years, would be like $15,000 for a Janass, which is a women's program. It's three, five-day training spread out over a few months, 15K for a curriculum. Or like 10K for the at-cause, when you're learning personal responsibility, all these total bullshit programs. So even though I was making money, I was still now financially

dependent because that was my income. And I'd cut off all my other options. I wasn't acting very much anymore and had become more and more isolated within that community. Because that's part of the thing is that, yes, I was making money, but if I wanted to coach people outside of the next community, I wasn't allowed to do that. I wasn't allowed to be a life coach for other people. It wasn't a successful cult, you know, millions of people. I was like less than 20,000 people went through in their 20 years of business in total, which not a lot. So net net, you think you still came out ahead? It's hard to say.

I've never done a spreadsheet. Maybe a little bit, but like at the end, after all the lawyers fees and everything at the end, so it felt like I was just starting again. But I would say the other aspect of dependency is that for people like myself that didn't make money, they always offered what would they called work exchanges or ethical value exchanges. So, for example, somebody like me who came in with nothing. they wanted me to attend V-week, Vanguard Week,

is 10-day birthday extravaganza, which at the time cost, I think, $2,000 or $3,000. And my boyfriend and I at the time didn't have the money, and he was a filmmaker, so they're like, well, you can film it. And Sarah, you can be his assistant, which is ridiculous because I had no experience, labeling tapes and, you know, carrying around his gear for him. But they wanted to give us a job so that we would attend.

So they did these things called ethical value exchanges. So a lot of people were in charge of, like, doing the grunt work at V-week or at a training. So like if I was doing a 16-day training and I wanted to staff it, then headquarters would send a bunch of people who owed money but weren't paying money. They were working off their hours. So let's say they'd gotten a $10,000 curriculum for free because they were attending it and they were working it, like putting out the toilet paper and cleaning up afterwards and laying out the food and photocopying the notes, but they still owed the ethical value exchange was very skewed. So in other words, they always

owed more money. They always owed more hours and they were always just working, working, working, trying to pay off what they'd been given for free. Those people were the worst off. I'm sure. Yeah. And you mentioned litigation. A lot of former members have talked about how Nexium used litigation themselves to drain and destroy critics. Can you talk about how the organization leveraged its own wealth? And I know compared to others might not be as wealthy, but they used whatever they had and legal power to silence. dissent and maintain control. Yes. Weaponizing the legal system was something they were notorious for doing. We didn't know that was what was going out at the time. We thought we were fighting our

enemies. But really what they were doing is going after anyone who was speaking against nexium, dragging them through court. And like, that didn't happen to me because we kind of got ahead of it and we can get to that. But we saw that happen to other people. And there's women who left in 2009, who I don't remember the stats, but like thousands and thousands of dollars and hours. And hours upon hours of time spent in court and things being thrown out and appeals being rewritten and just like just to keep the, you know, to drain the lawyers fees and that kind of thing, like just to keep everybody on the hamster wheel of that system so that they eventually give up. And what was the final turning point for you? What led you and some of the other whistleblows at the time to start comparing notes and realize what was really going on with this group? There's a lot of things that happened over the years, and it wasn't one particular, I mean, there was one particular thing, but there's a lot of things that led up to that. And ultimately, and I wasn't really cognizant of this at the time, I had gotten married, the decision not supported by Nexium because it meant that I was being pulled away and I was happy. They didn't really want us to be happy ultimately. They wanted us to be in our issues so that we'd keep taking more curriculum. But I was happy. I had a baby. Now you know how fulfilling and also time consuming. That is, and kind of like sets your priority straight.

So I was pulling away. It's a long series of things that happened to this point. But ultimately, they, I say they, the leadership could feel me pulling away and finding my happiness elsewhere. So they, A, promoted me to Green Sash, which was something I had been working on for a really long time and had no ended sight. So they gave me what I wanted. And then after that, and I started to pull away again, they invited me to a secret women's group, which I was told with nothing to do in that. axiom. Again, a lot of steps in that process that are very difficult to explain, even especially in a one-hour podcast. But I basically said yes to a top secret women's group that was supposed to

hold me accountable and take my growth to the next level, which I felt like I needed because I had stagnated. And so I felt like this would be great. I was invited by my best friend who was also my bridesmaid and in this context, sort of my therapist, somebody I really, really, really admired. and basically I was blackmailed into a group that I thought I was getting a tattoo in, which was not a tattoo, it was brand. Sarah's story took a particularly dark turn when she was invited into a secret women's group. On the surface, it was pitched as an exclusive sorority for a female empowerment and accountability. But what she didn't realize was that it was a master-slave pyramid structure, and the ultimate master was Keith Reneer.

He required women to give up collateral, like embarrassing photos or videos, that could be used to blackmail them into total obedience. I became a slave, yeah. And in my mind, you know, I'm in Vancouver. My master is in New York. So I'm like, I'm not really a slave. This is like an exercise.

I've never been in a sorority, but I've since done episodes in our podcast where people are like, yeah, there's the person above you and you're like getting haze and you're like going to do these ridiculous, demeaning things. You know, it's like a shtick. It's not like you're really the person's subordinate for life,

but that's just sort of what you do in a sorority. It's felt like that. In fact, they called it a sorority, the top secret sorority. So now I have a master, I'm a slave, and I was supposed to get a tattoo as a part of an initiation ceremony. Keep in mind, like I said, there's a lot of steps that led to this, and my people go like, wait, what? Like, what'd you do?

Like, how could you let that? If you don't understand coercive control and how 12 years of indoctrination can work on, somebody, it's very difficult. It's actually why I wrote my memoir because I wanted to get it all out in step by step so people could go along that journey with me and understand why I said yes at the end. But yeah, just to join the group, I had to give collateral, which is a term that nexium used early on for years before. Keith set it up that way so that when I was asked to give collateral to keep it secret, it was like not a big deal because everyone gave collateral as

like proof that you were committed. And if you strayed off the path, your collateral would be like $200, we are going to go to the Salvation Army because I didn't complete my goals. Like, people were putting their money where their mouth was in that sense. So I'd give them collateral, but then that was used against me in the moment of me being like, yeah, I don't really actually want a tattoo. I have no tattoos. And my master is saying, well, you committed to part of the being in the sororities. It was a vow of obedience.

So I had to do whatever she said. And I even asked her before signing up. But what is that, like, rob a bank? What if you tell me to rob a bank? I don't want to rob a bank. She's like, no, it's going to be things that are good for your growth. I'm not going to ask you to do something illegal or unethical. It's going to be like, you know, these are some things you can do. And in fact, some of the initial activities and assignments were great and helpful in my life. But the night of the ceremony, I found out that it was a brand, which I didn't even know people did to humans.

I thought that was something that animals got, like a farmer gives to their cattle to say, like, this cattle belongs on this pasture. It's mine. And I'm not going to go into the details of that because even eight years later, it's still kind of triggering for me, but it was very painful. It was without anesthetic. It was under my bathing suit line. So like you couldn't see it with like under underwear. That was filmed. And that was given as more collateral so that now I understand. I didn't understand the time. It's just to make sure everyone feels like thoroughly ashamed to never say anything about it and to keep you quiet. Actually, it wasn't the branding specifically that snapped me out of the 12-year Kool-Aid dream. But it was finding out that the symbol of my body was a mashup of Keith Ranieri, the leader of

nexus initials on my body. And so that's what pulled me back to reality. So when you said, what woke you up or how did you figure it out? That moment was very specifically key. People had called us a cult for many years. And I always joked it off, you know, laughed it off saying, well, this is a cult. It's happy, successful people. And I look at my life. It's great. And now all of those accusations came to the fore of like, okay, well, those are true. Even actually in the night of the branding, I said, guys, like, people think we're a call already. Like, this is terrible marketing. Like, this is not a good idea. I did voice that, even though I was going along with it. That in conjunction with having very forthright conversations with other people who

were waking up and leaving, Mark, the filmmaker, I told you about who got me in. He was one of those people. He was actually living in Albany at the time and started to see that things were getting very weird with a lot of the women and didn't know what it was. So he broached that with me and then I was able to kind of fill him in and he revealed to me that some women had come to him and told him about a secret group and that sex was involved. So that was really like the period of time when I figured out that like Keith was not a celibate renunciate, which is what we'd been told about him, which is I cannot believe that we ever thought that he was a celibate monk. That was just part of his facade. When that cover was blown and I knew about the branding, Mark knew

about the sex, and then we were able to put together actually what was going on behind closed doors, which is why we decided to become whistleblowers with a group of others, my husband, and Marcosante's wife. And that was what we brought to the authorities. And ultimately, what we were whistleblowing on was terrible, but there was way worse that we didn't even know about. What was it like when you first met Keith? I assume it was much earlier than when you got his initials? No, I'd met him 12 years before. I wasn't. part of his inner inner circle. So I didn't have that much time with him, but my perception of him changed over the years. I remember when I first met him thinking he was like short and schlubby and

unkempt and a bit unassuming and very normal, like sort of a normal volleyball playing nerd. And then a couple years later, they gave him a makeover and they cut his hair and they put him in polo shirts and he kind of looked a little bit more professorial. And over time, I felt more comfortable with him, but generally, like, especially in the early years, I was very intimidated by him. I always kept him at a distance, mostly because I was like, what could I possibly say to him? Like, he's the smartest man in the world. And he, you felt very vulnerable around him, because if you believed that he created this incredible curriculum that changed all these people's lives and that he was able to see people's issues, like you felt very kind of

exposed with him. And he'd, like, look you deeply in the eyes and he'd do this eye-gazing thing. you feel very, it was like when he had his attention on you, the world stopped because he was so attentive and he was really good at rapport and making you feel seen, which I've since heard from other women who had sexual relationships with him, that that's really what his entry point was. He listened to them. He held space for them to share in a way they'd never experienced before. He made them feel special. And I didn't do any of that with him. I've just, this is what I've heard from other women, but I definitely can say that when he was looking at you, you felt very connected. And when did you realize that he wasn't this Dalai Lama monk-esque figure who didn't have possessions

and didn't have sex and all the other stuff you were told? I realized that he was, you know, that was all a facade when I had that conversation with Mark, which would have been in May of 2017 shortly after I'd been branded and before we left publicly. But figuring out, like, there's a lot of people that we speak to in our podcast who kind of wake up slowly and they question things and they talk to ex-members. Like, this happened very quickly. My world unraveled very fast and it was a massive betrayal and it was very destabilizing and ungrounding because I'd been vouching for this guy for 12 years and then to find out that not only was he not who he said he was, but he's the opposite of what he said he was. After Sarah escaped nexium, she became the central figure in a major New York Times. expose about the group. But going public with her story was a terrifying decision, especially

knowing the organization's history for weaponizing legal action and personal attacks against its critics. So what was it like for her to face the potential of retaliation? It was terrifying. And at that time, I did not say those words. I would say things like in my experience, this group was problematic because it, blah, blah, blah, blah. I was less defaming and more neutral in my passing on of information, but now that we all know about what Keith did, and he's in jail, I don't have to worry about that. But at the time, it was terrifying. I mean, all of us whistleblowers were, I put extra locks on my doors in my apartment in Vancouver. We were certain we were being surveilled. We didn't know what they were going to do or when or how, but one of the

leadership members in, I'm not going to say her name, flew to Vancouver and tried to get me arrested through the Vancouver police. I think if I'd been in America, I would have been in a different situation, but she tried to get me arrested. She made up a bunch of charges that were all untrue, and the police looked into it,

and I had to hire a criminal defense lawyer just to deal with that. And I wasn't really thinking about, like, any of the long-term effects. I just knew that I had the brand of my body, which is why I became sort of the face of it all. What happened to other women, in many ways, was worse than what happened to me,

but I had the proof and I was also willing to show it and really what the brand was was a physical manifestation of many years of emotional abuse. I felt like I was able to do it and I had a responsibility to do that partly because I'd brought in so many people. I'd been a recruiter for so many years and a lot of the women that were still in and loyal to him and branded and also having sex with Keith were there either directly because of me or indirectly because of me. So I was like, this is what I have to do. I was just thinking about. shutting it down and making sure that it was exposed and that nexium ended and these women were freed. That was my goal. Not like, how is this going to affect my kids when they go to school and the

principal Googles? I didn't, I wasn't really thinking about the long-term effects. Just like, we got to do what we have to do. Is there any way to get the brand off? I've actually had plastic surgery and it's gone. I left it on for about three years and I tried to do a bunch of different things and eventually got very used to be quite keloid and raised and and ugly. And I got it very flat and white, but when you looked in the mirror, you could still see KR. So I am high plastic surgery. Actually, I don't even know who this was, but somebody contacted my lawyer and said they wanted to pay for the plastic surgery. And I had it removed. And basically they just cut out like an eye shape around the square. It was like a two inch by two

inch square. And then they sewed it up. So it's like this thin white line. Looks a little bit like a caesarian scar, but off to the left. Learning. Stellist lenses do more than just correct your child's vision. They slow down the progression of myopia. So your child can continue to discover all the world has to offer through their own eyes. Light the path to a brighter future with stellar lenses for myopia control. Learn more at SLOR.com and ask your family eye care professional for SLOR Stellist lenses at your child's next visit. On September 5th I come down here, I need you in your house!

Array! The Conjuring Last Rites, only on the theater September 5th. Ghosts Skin Walkers What do you believe? Well, brace yourself for unexplained encounters. The podcast where people from around the world share their most bizarre and terrifying experiences with us.

And I narrate them to you. From alleged sightings of werewolves. Two demonic entities in the dark shadows. of the room. We're not asking you to decide what to believe in. Rather, decide what you fear. Get somebody out here. Follow and rate unexplained encounters on Spotify and Apple Podcasts, or go to eeriecast.com. Sarah's decision to expose nexium came from what she personally experienced, the physical and emotional abuse of the branding. But after she became a whistleblower,

lower, she learned that what happened to her was only the tip of the iceberg. The full truth revealed during the criminal trial was far more disturbing than she could have ever imagined. Oh my goodness. There's six weeks of transcripts from that trial that blew my mind and I didn't have to go in the end. I was originally I was supposed to testify, but they didn't need me to in the end. Thank goodness because I was breastfeeding my newborn at the time. That would have been quite traumatic, but we found out about one woman who was kept in a room for months at a time. Granted, the door was unlocked. It's an emotional concept of her entrapment. Like, they took out, she was Mexican, they took away all her papers and told her she had to stay

until she, I forget what it was specifically, but like basically repented, resolved her issues, apologized. And there were women who were promised babies who never got them. There was a married woman who was forced to perform oral sex with Keith. There was just horrendous, disgusting things, emotional and physical and spiritual manipulation and abuse going on for years, even before I even got there. And in retrospect, what do you think is ultimately the biggest lesson to be learning from your experience in Xium? I mean, particularly for our audience who might be interested in seeing some of the early

warning signs of scams or deceptive. organizations or even just knowing what kind of organizations those could be when they seem legit. Yeah, I'd say like one of the things I always tell people now is research. And you can find a lot of things online, especially Reddit, is blank a cult. And you'll find people's stories or documentaries or memoirs or Reddit threads. And the thing that I'd say is that if you have that, don't go to the group, because the leadership, of course, will say, it's, of course, it's not a cold. Of course. Like, look out, look around. We're so happy and we love you. And then you're on the radar as a potential defector. And that could be dangerous. So I would say,

if you have that thought, talk to ex-members who aren't happy. And my thing with that is that where there's smoke, there's fire. Because we heard about defectors, but we were told that they were crazy. Or is a woman scorned who was in love with Keith, but couldn't be with him. And I see that time and time again with the groups that we cover where people leave and the organization's response is to say, well, they're bipolar or, you know, borderline personality disorder or they're crazy or they're an ex-lover or whatever. So like the organization's response to dissenters is a key thing. And then there's lots of red flags, I would say, for people who are in a group, if they're feeling uncomfortable with something, they should definitely trust that. And there's actually a book that my husband and I are writing now to understand the whole template, like how people get in, how what the playbook is of these. groups and then also how to get out, how to whistleblow, how to navigate the media, how to

write a book. And then also at the end, there's green flags. What to look for? Can you ask questions without being gaslit? Can you leave and be part of the community without being shunned? Like any group that shuns people ignores, doesn't speak to, or discredits people who leave, it's highly problematic. It's our financial transparency. Can people, you know, especially question the leader There's lots of things to look for, green flags to look for and red flags to look for. Are there organizations that you feel fit those red flags or even beige flags that you are warning people about now? Oh, yeah. There's so many. There's so many. And one of my most common interactions I have was with people that look at what happened to me. And for the most part, people are pretty compassionate or empathetic. I'm like, oh, that would never happen to me. But I'm so glad that there's. you're out. I would have seen those red of flies. And you may have with nexium, but then they tell

me that they're like in TM, Transcendental Meditation. They have a mantra and I'm like, that's a cult. I mean, your mantra is fine, but like if you keep going up that path, that's a full-on cult. There's culty things that like are problematic for me like CrossFit, you know, that aren't necessarily a cult or soul cycle, but are culty and can have unhealthy toxic elements to them that people don't know, like, what's the line here of being something healthy or not healthy, which is kind of what I'm steering towards now. Like, cult has become overused and people throw it around really easily. And there's a pretty specific checklist of things that can make it a destructive cult versus, you know,

pickleball is a little bit culty, but I think you're probably going to be okay if you play pickleball, right? But you might join a group where you feel like a little bit shamed if you don't attend practice, then like, don't go to that group. You know what I mean? You just like you have to learn what's healthy and not healthy versus culty or not culty. I think anything political that anyone feels like they're so attached to that they won't speak to people who don't have the same beliefs as them, that's problematic, whatever side of the aisle you're on.

Like, we should be having dialogue, not isolated echo chambers of people who think the same. And what about financial red flags in particular? Financial red flags, I'd say, you know, the thing I mentioned at the beginning being pressured to sign up is a real financial red flag. If there's like any kind of, and this isn't a lot of sales, so it's unfortunate, but like, you know, 24 hour discounts or like something to induce a sense of FOMO, like you're not going to have this in 24 hours or a week from now. This is the only time you can get it. And any kind of workshop or seminar has that at the end. Like sign up now and you can get the next thing for this semester. out. It's done all the time, but I guess my advice would be like, if you really want to do it,

it'll be there next month. And then you'll know if you really want to do it because people like Nexium and people who are trying to get you to keep paying know that it's better to get you while you're still excited, right, and to keep that momentum up. So maybe go home and think about it. And part of your quest during that time in your life was to figure out a new career path. Mm-hmm. Do you look back and think what you could have done with all those years or what kind of business you could have built? Because it sounds like you wanted to be an entrepreneur. Yes. In fact, I was very entrepreneurial. Even from a young age, I had little businesses and like I sold jewelry and babysitting. Like, I love to do that kind of stuff. And I guess I still am, although I'm a little gun shy now with sales because I bet on the wrong horse. But yeah, I know, I think about it all the time. I think about lost opportunities, friendships. I mean, I hustled hard. in my 30s. I was there from 27, just but turned 28 till I turned 40. So I lost my entire 30s to that organization. In many ways, I feel like I'm here. I met my husband. I have two beautiful boys. I wouldn't change anything. But it's hard to, you know, of course I wouldn't have agreed

to get branded. Of course I wouldn't. I mean, there's the trajectory of my life was going in a certain direction. I always wonder what I would have done or accomplished or built like for a legitimate company had I not taken that path. I think it's easy for people to say that they would have done it differently or they would have, you know, smelled the fischiness that you didn't. What do you say back to those people? I say, I'm really happy for you that you would have dodged this bullet, but I guarantee it that in the right place, the right time with like certain emotional susceptibility,

especially when people are in a crossroads or after divorce or a change of job. the right person at the right time can con you, can trick you. And if you don't know what your personal susceptibility is, then you are more susceptible than anybody else. I know what my susceptibility is. I know I'm also a people pleaser. I know that when things were weird, I didn't say anything because I don't want to rock the boat or be rude. So that's something in me that like I still have to navigate. I'm pretty sure I'm not going to join a cult, but I've missed red flags with other situations in business where I give people the benefit of the doubt where I like, you know, did he just say that to me? No, he must be having a bad day. And I let something

go that I should have been like, no, we're not doing business together anymore. That's actually back to your earlier question in terms of advice. I would say when people show you who they are, believe them. And if you think something's not a good fit, like if you're doing business with somebody and you don't feel good around them, whether it's cult or, like, a group or any sort of business interaction, like if you don't feel like you can be yourself or you feel any kind of, I don't know what this person's deal is, don't work with them. Trust that because it's not going to get better. Yeah, I think it's really easy to be a genius in hindsight. And I think we've all felt vulnerable at different points in our lives to be duped in a lot of different ways, the full spectrum of cultiness. And that's just the human experience. These are really elaborate psychological schemes and scams that we can all fall prey to and fall victim to. How do you feel like your experience over this really critical decade of your life has now followed you? You mentioned very briefly that principal of your kids' school Googled it.

Does that come up a lot for you? What's that like? Yeah, I mean, partly the move from Vancouver to Atlanta was a bit of the sort of fresh start that we needed a few years ago. Generally, I found that people here, especially those who'd seen the vow, which documented the whole thing on HBO, that was like actually helpful for me because they knew so much about what I'd been through and I didn't have to explain myself. I'd say generally, it's a way for someone to say, like, if I tell people I was in a cult and I got out of a cult and they're weird about it, like we can't really be friends. Yeah, it's like self-selective. It's self-selecting. Thank you. And if I tell them, and they're like, oh, wow, like, I love true crime and call it, oh, yeah, next time I heard about that. It just makes it easier. And it's just not going to be this way forever, I hope, but it is a big part of who I am. And even on the other side of it, you know, having a podcast about cults and trying to educate people and shine light here. And even since we started our podcast four years ago, there's so much more content in this space. People, I think, really do want to understand and learn so that doesn't happen to them. And I, I'm happy to be part of that is just if people are weirded out, then they're not your people.

They're not my people, exactly. So it's helped me in many ways to find my people. And a lot of those people are people who've been through something similar, whether it's an abusive relationship or, you know, some financial scam that they fell for, which, by the way, happens, I mean, you probably know more than I do on that. But like, that's something that I've heard a lot people saying to me like I didn't fall for that but I you know my best friend con like half a million dollars out of me on an investment and like you know things like that all the time and they but they don't people don't talk about it because they're so embarrassed are you still scared what scares you now are you scared of it sounds like you have one woman that you're scared of I like sometimes if my

anxiety gets the best of me I imagine it's one of the 20 people who are still loyal to Keith and yes there are people who still think that he is good and we, the whistleblowers, are bad. And, you know, we were attention seeking or whatever they have to tell themselves to ignore what we were trying to point out. That one of them might go off the rails and do something violent. But it was a nonviolent organization. Actually, I was laughing because I was listening to your episode about WeWork and listening to how, what's his face? Adam Newman. Adam, thank you. Adam decided they were going to be vegetarian. Keith did the same thing. This was a vegetarian company, and everyone was supposed to be vegetarian because we're nonviolent. So if anybody decides to be violent towards me,

then that means they're not practicing his principles. So that makes me feel a little bit safer. But they've done other things to try to screw up people's lives. I'm more scared of any potential legal thing that could happen. But I feel like with Keith in jail for 120 years, that any attempts to do something that against me would be countered by any lawyers saying, well, what about this? But who knows? I was terrified for a long time of Keith because he is so manipulative and conniving that he would find some loophole. That was actually one of his main strategies was trying to prove that the FBI planted evidence in his case, and there was a whole thing about that. But that's been debunked multiple times by many people, but they keep harping on it. So it's like, I feel like he could do

something like that where he could get a new trial and that, I don't know, like that kind of thing. Sarah, thank you so much for being here and sharing your story. Thank you so much. Scams, money, and murder is hosted by me, Nicole Lapin, and is a Crimehouse original powered by Pave Studios. My guest today was Sarah Edmondson. Here at Crimehouse, we want to thank each and every one of you for your continued support. If you like what you heard here today, reach out on all social media. crime house and don't forget to rate review and follow scams money and murder wherever you get your

podcasts your feedback truly makes a difference and for ad-free listening plus early access and bonus content subscribe to crime house plus on apple podcasts this episode was brought to life by the scams money and murder team max cutler ron chaspero alex benedon stacey warren cur sarah camp and paul leibiskin