Money Crimes with Nicole Lapin - INTERVIEW: Pernilla Sjöholm & Cecilie Fjellhøy, Tinder Swindler Victims

Episode Date: May 1, 2025

When Pernilla Sjöholm matched with Simon Leviev on Tinder, she thought she’d found a best friend. Cecilie Fjellhøy believed she’d finally found true love. Instead, both women were manipulated, betrayed, and defrauded out of hundreds of thousands of dollars by the infamous "Tinder Swindler." In this interview, Nicole Lapin sits down with Pernilla and Cecilie to unpack the emotional turmoil, financial destruction, and lasting trauma of falling victim to fraud. For more on The Tinder Swindler, check our our episode: LUST: The Tinder Swindler on Apple or Spotify. Scams, Money, & Murder is a Crime House Original Podcast, powered by PAVE Studios. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. For ad-free listening and early access to episodes, subscribe to Crime House+ on Apple Podcasts. Don’t miss out on all things Scams, Money, & Murder! Instagram: @Crimehouse TikTok: @Crimehouse Facebook: @crimehousestudios X: @crimehousemedia YouTube: @crimehousestudios To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is Crime House. Isn't it weird to lose 200,000 pounds to one guy in 54 days? Am I the only one that thinks that this is not normal? I have been sitting on a dinner with five people who have been literally just out there to defrauding me and destroy my life. This is what fraudsters are doing. They're using the victim's hands and actions and words. But of course, in these instances, it doesn't get better.

It only gets worse. As they say, money makes the world go round. What many don't talk about is the time it made people's worlds come to a screeching halt. Whether it's greed, desperation, or a thirst for power, money can make even the most unassuming people do unthinkable things. And sometimes, those acts can be deadly. This is Scams, Money, and Murder, a CrimeHouse original.

I'm your host Nicole Lapin. Every Thursday we alternate between covering infamous money-motivated crimes and gripping interviews with the experts or those who were directly involved themselves. CrimeHouse exists because of you. Please rate, review, and follow Scams, Money, and Murder wherever you get your podcasts. And for early ad-free access and bonus content, subscribe to Crime House Plus on Apple Podcasts. Hey there, it's Nicole. If you love Scams, Money, and Murder where we look at some of the world's wildest money

crimes, then you definitely have to check out Clues with Kailyn Moore and Morgan Apshur. Every Wednesday, Morgan and Kailyn take you deep into the world of the most notorious crimes ever, Clue by Clue. From serial killers to shocking murders, Clues dives into all the forensic details and brilliant sleuthing of the world's most infamous cases. So if you're looking for a show that has compelling storytelling, crime scene analysis, and a new perspective through some of the world's most puzzling true crime cases,

you definitely have to check out Clues. Clues is a Crime House original powered by PAVE Studios. New episodes drop every Wednesday. Just search Clues wherever you listen to podcasts. Hey there, and welcome to Scams, Money, and Murder. Today's episode is one that captivated the world. A story of online dating, extravagant lies, and international deceit. You might know it from the viral Netflix documentary, The Tinder Swindler. My guests today are Cecilia Felhoi and Pernilla Hoholm, two incredibly brave women who came

forward to share their stories. After being conned by Simon Levy, a man who posed as the son of a diamond mogul and lived a life of private jets, designer clothes, and fabricated danger all funded by his victims. What started as a modern love story quickly spiraled into a nightmare, but out of it came resilience, friendship, and a mission to help others. Cecilia, let's start at the very beginning. In the documentary, you call yourself a bit of a Tinder expert as well as a hopeless romantic. I don't think we need to focus on what attracted

you to Simon. I'm more interested in understanding how he gained your confidence and trust. Yeah, I think it's human nature. I think you're always vulnerable when you go out on a date, when you're looking for love, when you're on a dating app and trying to find love. I think that's the thing. And yeah, I went on a date with him and it was proper love bombing at the start, you know, or extravagant gifts and talking about the future very early on. And I was 29, 30 years old and I was like ready to settle down and I wanted to find someone. And I think he was looking for people in that age group because we are wanting that deep connection with someone.

So I think at the start it was just perfect. You asked tons of questions about you that you always like to hear and you know, like he was really involved and wanting all of it. The attraction is always personal. It's just at the start where you see the pictures and then later on is all the FaceTime calls and phone calls and all that is making you grow that deep bond. So that's what happened. Human nature. Yes, I call it. It is human nature. We all long for connection. And Pernilla, same question for you. Your relationship with Simon wasn't romantic,

but he still seemed to be an important person in your life. How did he gain your confidence or your trust? Well, I think from the beginning, like instantly when we met, he was very good. You know that some people when you meet them can make you feel this instant connection. After spending a day with them, it feels like you have known them for over 10 years. So he was very good in creating that. And like Cecilia said, it was very good in like asking questions. And for me, we actually had a lot of fun. We laughed a lot and a lot of joking. And he

also, you know, build up that trust during a period of eight months with me. And he was the one who was always there, like always, he was very good in sending good morning texts, checking in, how is your day and everything. So in my eyes, he was a very caring person. I think it was really good at remembering all the small details that we love. For example, I talked to him about that I was so cold in my flat in London and I was so tired. I couldn't even, you know, I was not even allowed to put the heating on it. A couple of months later he could just say randomly, I don't want you to be cold in your flat anymore. You know, all of these types of stuff like you're listening, you know, and now most likely he had a notes and notes app with all the different people he was

talking to, to remember this because if not, he has the best memory in the world. But, um, that is like the one thing that I always try to look back on. I bet he was so good at it. Yeah. He could have literally sent you a text on your name day, which is like a Swedish name day, you know, so he was very text on your name day, which is like a Swedish name day. So he was very good at remembering those details, which I still can be a bit fascinated about. Until today, how could he keep track on all of these details with all of these people on the high side?

Yeah, there had to have been some sort of system that was like clockwork. Yeah, I think for me, I was quite naive. I think in the book, I read it back and I was like, Oh my God, Cecil, you're not the same anymore, but one of the things a lot of these fraudsters are doing, like they're testing for compliance kind of early, not with money or anything, but they're testing what kind of person you are, will you go digging into stuff? And for example, on that private jet trip

that I was on, he handed me the passports of everyone involved. It's like, Tisila, can you just hold on to them? And if I was curious, if I was a bit like, let me just check, I would have maybe just looked quickly through them. And I would have seen that it wasn't a Simon Levi on that flight, that he was using a fake passport. So I think he's very good at testing what kind of person you are quite early, you know, giving, loving, trusting, all these types of things. What are you caring about? What are you asking him about? Are you asking him about his next fancy vacation? Are you asking him, how are you? You know, and I think he's very good at deciphering quite early when it comes to this big net that they're throwing

out and they find the right individuals that will kind of become the perfect victim. Yeah, and you just casually mentioned your private jet flight with him. So there was a lot of over the top lavish gestures. Was that one of the biggest that he made toward you or what was the most over the time? For me that wasn't a gesture, it was his life. That was the first date. I didn't even think I was going to see the guy again. I've never been on a private jet so I was thinking, would I regret something I did do

then didn't do? I mean, reflecting back, it could have been human trafficked. Sometimes you could have picked one or the other, you know, being defrauded. Um, so for me, the private jet was more of his lifestyle, who he was. What he did for me, I think the hundred red roses was like amazing. I never received, you know, a flower bouquet that size. He sent me another bouquet of flowers later on, thanking me for helping him in the most difficult and darkest period of his life. So he was

really good. Everyone thinks that I was traveling around with him and I think that is really annoying at times. I wish I could have gotten more money off the ones that he spent on my dime, you know. I did not stay at a five-star hotel. I did not travel around with them, but of course other dates got it. If you know what I mean, like, okay, I got the private jet on the first date. Was that worth $250,000? I don't know. I don't think so.

She's trying to laugh about it because. Yeah. But I think like that is like a quite misunderstanding that we have went around and living in getting extravagant gifts and extravagant experiences. I didn't receive anything. Like he was my friend. It was not like he was paying my trips or getting me gifts or anything like that. But of course, like if we were out like when I do know something, he will probably take the bill, but that is more common courtesy and the gentleman behavior. So so I mean I got some food but it's nothing you know it's not like I

got anything for the money that I gave him. I wish we did I wish I had some stuff to sell you know I would have sold it to kind of try to be but we wish we stole the suitcase with all his stuff I wish we stole his suitcase with all his stuff. That would be pretty cool. Yeah, so, you know, but yeah, as you can see, I would have been honest if it was tons of extravagant. I would have said, okay, thank God I got something back out of it. But unfortunately I didn't. I stayed in the secret flat that he had and we had home cooked meal. You know what I mean?

So me and Prilla, we went back actually to Amsterdam and we confronted one of the hotels that you had stayed at with my card. Talking about how you could be a five star hotel where you hand in a credit card and did they have anyone that was a woman in that entourage? And how could he use my card for like 6,800 pounds for just a weekend. So it's been a journey me and Prerna has been on. Yeah, that's for sure. I mean, when we think about scams, we don't tend to think necessarily about getting taken advantage of course by someone we love and has gained our trust and we've shared experiences with.

I think with the way that he really gained trust is that he introduced us to several people and not at the same time. So we met up with his friend who confirmed what a great person he was. Cecilia met up with his child's mother who said that he was amazing and she was actually the one who sent him to prison in Finland.

Like we met so many people throughout the period of time that confirmed his identity and confirmed he was a great person. While looking back at it, I have been sitting on a dinner with five people who have been literally just out there to defrauding me and destroy my life. So it wasn't just him building the trust. It was all the people around him who build the trust. If it would have been only him, he wouldn't have been able to do what he did.

It was all the people around him that did it. Who is thinking that people create immersive theaters around you? You know, now Cecilia is coming to visit you. So go and sit down and fix some of your expensive watches so you can talk about that. Or when I was waiting in the bedroom and he went over to his business party, they were discussing diamonds, not even in the same room as me. Or just randomly leaving paperwork by the counter,

by the coffee machine. And just, oh, can you go and grab the coffee? And then it's just casually laying there with a company stamp and everything. So it was a whole operation. Yeah, it was a whole production. I mean, immersive theater is a really interesting way to describe it because you have characters and props and all sorts of elements that he's controlling.

So Cecilia, it sounds like things really shifted after you got this ominous text from Simon, the one where he said his bodyguard had been attacked, right? That was, it seems the moment that he told you he couldn't use his credit cards anymore. And then everything started to unravel from there. My timeline is a bit different. So in the book, finally, I can make it more clear how it happened in my case. My case did not take eight months. So I'm not one of them where it took super long time.

I'm very honest about it. Like for me, he, it was after Valentine, I'd given him a very nice gift, maybe six, six, seven weeks after we met, and he then said that he was in such big troubles, uh, he got told from his security teams that he couldn't use his cards for a while. And I was like, Oh my God, is there anything I can do? You know, like I hadn't been with him, but I'd seen him traveling around, you know, and I had heard about the bodyguard Peter,

and like he said that he had some issues, but everything was going to get better. So that's how it started with me. And for me, that sounded like such a small thing to help him out with at the start. And I really believed that he said, that he was who he said he was. So I was like, a couple of weeks, I will help him out with at the start. And I really believe that he said that he was who he said he was. So I was like, a couple of weeks, I will help you out.

But of course, in these instances, it doesn't get better. It only gets worse. So I had to call Amex every single day to open up the card while he was using it. And 10k in Simon the Vives and team's world is nothing, you know? So, and I've never been around that kind of wealth or kind of understood. So the attack on Peter happened kind of midway, but it made me really feel that they needed my help

and this was serious. So I got like a voice note after that, like you understand now this is serious shit, we're in a war, like Peter could be dead and no, like it's pretty sinister when you look back on it, you know, when I was in it, I was deadly scared of my boyfriend, which is very weird. It's always scared of him or for him? No, for him.

Because of the enemies. Yes. Remember that you believe that he is who he says he is now. So not yet scared of him then. So that is why I was like with the documentary, it was a bit annoying because for me, it wasn't a big thing that happened, but it was gradually, but that really sentimented to me like, fuck, this is serious. I was so, so scared and kind of for him. So after that, well, you called Amex consistently, but then they actually showed up at your apartment.

They didn't just randomly show up, but when in the end I had understood what happened, they were the ones I contacted that I was so scared because I had done stuff wrong. I had sent in then what I knew was to be fake documents. I had given him my credit card. You've done so many things that you know, as a grown-up is really bad for you to do. So that's when I called them. And then they came to my work to interview me, tell me who this guy is. And that's, you know, that's when it was all unraveling. Didn't they look at the photo and say, that's the guy? Yeah. Because of course they don't want to talk about someone that is not the same person.

So they asked, do you have a picture of him? And they looked at each other and I was like, yeah, that's him. And that's when I was like... So what's interesting about that conversation, I saw Parnella's name, because he had like a written notebook, very old fashioned. And he had names of many people. And I looked at it and I saw other people and what you as a victim want to do is to reach out because you were so alone, you know, like what has gone, what's happened?

I need to warn others or, you know, or connect. So I saw Pranelle's name and some others and I asked them, can I reach out? You know, I'm actually alone and, you know, terrified. Like who is this guy? And then he said to me, no, please don't do it. Like we want to take him to court, you know, and trial it. And if you do that, we can destroy, you know, the testimony. That would have saved me. Right. At least if they would have reached out because like I was an American Express, like Platinum member for years. So we have the same customer service. So for me, what is like the most upsetting part about my story that there were so many people down on the road that could have helped me and just make

sure that I wasn't defrauded or was put in this situation or even in danger. And for me, the feeling when I was being unraveled is that so many people knew about me and no one did anything. So I think that that was fueling me afterwards that you don't want anyone else to go through with this. I think like with our story, I think that this is the most saddest part, or at least for me, that it could have been avoided. First of all, I was alone for six months before the Tinder Swindler, the Norwegian one came out. I was all by myself because they had barred me from contacting anyone else that I had the names of. And then I got to know when I met up with Pernilla that I went to the police in May 2018 and Amix knew about him. She was defrauded when it's November, December. November, end of November.

It's heartbreaking, you know, that things could have looked very differently. So yeah, our timeline is a bit overlapping. I had seen Pranilla's name, but I was told to me that they were going to warn her. And they never did. When did your internal warning light go off, Pernilla? You weren't warned. Well, I mean, like my warning signals went off. So I did go to my bank. There are so many instances in both of our stories where this could have been prevented.

So he sent me news reports, stories that actually happened to the real Levi family. And so he said, due to this instance, I need to borrow some money because otherwise I can be in danger. And also the one closest to me, which is you. So it was also like a threat that if I didn't do this, something could happen to me. You do get scared and especially when thinking of your friends. So he used like real stories towards me. So when I lent him the first amount of money, he sent me back a check that just didn't arrive. It wasn't very good fake. So I went in with it to my bank and I said, well, hey, can you check if something is wrong with this transfer? Because it doesn't seem to be arriving.

I just want to make sure nothing is wrong. So they actually behind it that she was that, well, can you email it to us? And I will be related also to the headquarters. So they do that and I'm in at the bank and then they just saying come back. Well, everything looks fine. It's just gonna take a couple of days and then I felt so bad for Questioning my very good friend and actually thinking he would do something like this towards me So I lent him even more money. Why did the bank tell you that it was okay? They said that everything looks fine and everything was in order and that it would probably just arrive in a couple of days.

But of course, when you're taking this back, they have said it to you in person. So it's not in writing. It's very smart. I mean, I could have been saved there, but it's just, and then when I confront them with this afterwards, they're like, well, we can't know how every look of every transfer looks like. And then you're like, couldn't you have said that? Yeah, it's not malicious. It's just the people at the bank don't have that kind of forensic analysis.

But say that too, when you come then, it was the same with the check that he tried where everyone, they said everything was fine with the check. They didn't even check if the check was real or not. If a single individual, a single woman comes in and trying to cash a $500,000 check, first of all, that is a red flag. a single woman comes in and trying to cash a $500,000 check. First of all, that is a red flag. And second of all, maybe you should just check it before you do anything else. Is this check that we have is real? It's just so sad to look back on, you know?

Yeah. But then for me, I think like I, I got the real like reality check was when VG, the reporters contacted me. And that's when I was like, my worst fears were true. I had stuck lending him my money because I gave him my savings and my savings sort of ran out. And I remember just like trying to test him because like, you really want to go into denial. You don't want to have lost all your money. You don't want your what I thought very good friend to be a fraudster and my entire

life being fake because then you started to realize when you went through this like immersive theater around you with all these people if this wouldn't have been true I would have lived like a crazy Hollywood movie that is just too insane. And that becomes too surrealistic. Do you understand what I mean? It's just too insane. So I had stopped sending him money and just sort of testing him. He gave me a try to see if I would take up a bank loan, which I refused. And that's when I was like, something is seriously wrong, but you don't want to believe it. So when the video reporter contacted me, I was at a work fair and I think I almost passed out because you just saw your entire

life just went into the ruins. I was so destroyed. After that, it was a dark, dark place in my life. I'm sure. I mean, at some point you think that it's gonna turn around, right? That you can't cut your losses, that you're gonna just, something's gonna change. And so is that part of why you guys felt like you could keep giving more and more? It's like the sun caused fallacies that with all humans, the more people, the more you put into anything work, relationships, whatever, the more difficult it is to, you know, take a step back. And especially when you feel your life depends on it, like your life is over.

If this isn't real. Um, and it wasn't like he did this, like also in an underlying threat. It wasn't like it came a big threat, like all of a sudden, like you would imagine it to be. It was like spreading a little bit of salt here and there and here and there and just building it up. And for me, it had been built up for such a long time. I mean, I was sitting there and thinking, what is more important than my friend or money? I mean, isn't a life worth more than money? Would I want to sit there and see that something actually did happen and I have the capacity to help, but I just decided not to?

I don't know. I mean, even if, I mean, to any fraudster out there, it's not going to work. But just like if Cecilia would call me and say like, Hey babe, like this is a life or death situation. Can you transfer me $50,000? Even if I wouldn't have it, I would make sure she had that in her bank account within hours, you know, if it was a life or death situation. I think people really have to understand that we thought it was real, you know, you're not getting scammed if you have an inkling or you think that this is happening to you. Hindsight is always a gift in these instances, you know, where we, of course, when you see back is being in an abusive relationship. A lot of times you don't see the red flags for you. This is normal.

See, it's when you see afterwards that it's like, oh my god, these messages are not great and someone that truly loved me would never have put me in this situation. It's blaming someone who have been cheated on as well. Like how couldn't you know that the guy was going to cheat or she was going to cheat on you? Somebody who's shaming the scam me, I don't even know if that's the way to describe it, the person that is being scammed, that we can all get in this situation so easily. And Bernalya, you talked about this dark moment in your life. You felt sucker punched.

How dark did it get? Like very dark. Like suicidal? Yeah, I was suicidal. I was so bad. And I think that that is what really made me and Cecilia's connection so special from the very beginning, because I don't think I would have survived this without her and having her support. We were supporting each other through this very dark experience. I could talk with someone who really understood me, who really understood what you have been living through. So that was definitely my scene. And I have the most amazing family and friends.

So I did get out of it and I did get back stronger. It's so sad that when we talk about scam and frauds and everything, we don't talk about the suicidal rates when it comes to people who have lived through scam and fraud, and especially emotional fraud in general. Um, and those are very high numbers. We love to support people who are suicidal and have health lines and everything, but when we tell them, when you go, for example, meet police or psychiatrists or try to talk with people that you live through scam,

then it's not the same thing all of a sudden. Yeah. It's a privilege to think hindsight is 20-20, that you should have known this or that is ridiculous. It sounds like you guys are hearing that a lot, and that's maybe a source of what you want to clarify. Well, I think, like, right now, I am looking back at the year 2019,

it's six years ago, maybe we'll move it forward to that, but I think that's where I was at that point. But it also built me a lot stronger going through that in my life. And also want to believe in like a higher purpose that this happened to both me and Cecilia for a reason, because we were very good in handling that situation as well, then build each other like very stronger afterwards as well. Cecilia, did you see that darkness too? Did you feel suicidal during this? Yeah, I think if you've seen the Tinder Swindler, you knew how dark it became for me. I would like,

my mom had to put me into acute psychiatric ward. So of um, of course I had nine creditors on me, you know, so I had to sell my flat and like, I just knew my life was over. I'm a smart woman, you know, I knew, I knew what kind of issues I was going to have to face afterwards. Like the fight, everyone thinks that when you're defrauded, you're, you're done. But for a lot of fraud victims, the fight then becomes, okay, will I be able to reimburse the money? What I'm going to do? We talked to several fraud victims who lost their homes. This is not an isolated incident just only for me. There's a lot of fraud victims that have to

sell their homes and file for bankruptcies and losing it. It's a PTSD. It's not uncommon. I think it turns dark. In my case, I was taken to court by four banks and I became a suspect with the UK police. So it was some pretty dark years where I went through, like, am I living in the twilight zone? Because I've always been like, well, this was a crime when I got out of it. We were trying to figure out why did we do what we did and come to understand that you are a victim of a crime when I got out of it. You know, we were trying to figure out why did we do what we did and you come to understand that you are a victim of a crime. And then the financial institutions say, no, you're the culprit, you're the responsible.

And then the court system say the same thing. And then the police as well is not known. They don't know about romance fraud and social manipulation, social engineering. So they see, well, Cecilia Fjellhoi did this. So we're going to go after her, even though Simon Lavaille was the one, you know, pulling the strings. Because of course it's, it's difficult. But yeah, it's, and having like Parnell, like peer support for me has been like when I finally, when we finally connected, you know, I was like, thank God, as same as Parnell,

I was like, I have amazing. That's like the sweetest moment though. And I'm so happy because we actually had like the reporters. So we actually have a picture from our first meeting and just like giving each other this like big hug and you know, it was just so amazing. This is still the best hug I ever had. I have a Targa mom that really was fighting for me who had control of my finances for a year, cause I wouldn't have sat here without her. who had control of my finances for a year, because I wouldn't have sat here without her. But I have to say, like, as Pranilla was saying, people can have empathy and sympathy and sithyr like, and understand.

But it was when I met Pranilla where I was like, but he was a nice guy, right? He was nice to be around. He was funny. Like it was just so nice to meet someone who knew him. Cause I had all distorted. Like he was a monster, you know? And it was just so nice to meet Pranil. I was like, yeah, he was nice. I was like, yeah, I felt that too. Like I didn't fall in love with the awful guy, you know? It was really healing to meet her, finally. And one of the most remarkable parts of this story is

right around then, in your darkest moments, both of you made the decision to fight back and try to take him down, not just for your sakes, but for everyone else's who might get scammed in the future. Was there any hesitation? So I think like, especially for me, it was so much like, I don't want this to happen to anyone else, especially when I knew that this had happened to people.

And there were so many factors that could have saved me. Like Cecilia said, she went to the police in May. I got to front of the end of November and I was just like, this can't continue anymore. Like someone has to put the stock to it. So I was so grateful for Cecilia for reaching out to VG who finally then contacted me a little bit too late, but still. But just like to go and do this together with Cecilia and just pick up the fight. I contacted VG and the media out of desperation. I was like, what is this? This is the most crazy story I've ever heard. But the financial institutions is like, police is that. And I was like, isn't it weird to lose 200,000 pounds to one guy in 54 days?

Am I the only one that thinks that this is not normal? And then I feel like when I could see their indifference, I was like, he is just going to continue and continue and continue. And I was so upset about his threatening behavior. He had sent me a threatening email where he says, we know you, your friends, your family, step out for every action going to be a reaction. And first I was deadly scared. And then I was like, this is not okay. This is not how you treat people. I lost my entire life because of you. This is not fair and you're going

to continue doing this and he has. At least we got his face out there and now we know that Froster's have been at this for decades. We stopped him in two years time. You know, pretty proud of that because he would have just continued this fantastical lifestyle. Yeah. Where do you think you found the strength during this dark moment to dig so deep and go after him in such an aggressive way? What was the fear or hesitation, whether it was going to the press or the police or just telling someone the truth at that point? Back then, I just needed someone to listen to me properly and understand what this was because I was like, so to have VG that kind of went and find the court

papers from Finland, they went to Israel to get a positive identification. Like they did actually do a lot of great work in just half a year. Being in Pranila now, how long it will take to make documentaries so that they may be able to do that in half a year is pretty impressive. So I think that is it. And then like when I was pretty low before the Tinder Swindler first one came out and then you Pranila, you were on the, we can do this. And I saw like, oh my god Pranila is like, she's helped me catch this guy. I was like, oh my god so we have been giving each other strength at different times because I've been by myself for half a year you know creating

this and then Pranila comes in and like, what the fuck, you know, what the hell? We need to do stuff. And it's like, yes, we've been a great tag team. For me, I think it is well, like I was at a dark point, but it was just like when I saw Cecilia, especially like such a long time afterwards, you know, six, seven months after she went through this and she was still like in such a fragile state, it sort of got to me like I don't have to fight for myself. Like I need to fight for this woman too. Like we need to do this together. So I think we created sort of like a dream team. I remember us just sitting in Cecilia's flat in London. We were thinking as long as people knows about him it's going to be more impossible for him to defraud

others. Him and his teams. We just we knew that the only way we to be more impossible for him to defraud others, him and his teams. We just, we knew that the only way we could stop him was for people to know about him. So we just took that VG piece that we sort of required for them to make in English. It was the first time ever they ever did that, this Norwegian newspaper. So we just took that and just sent it out everywhere. I promise you, if it was my little pony, he wanted to do an interview. We would have said yes, if they want to show his picture. Like this is where we were.

So we were just sending it out all over, all over the world. And we knew what kind of hotels he'd been staying at. So we were trying to send that to the hotels too, that he had been to, you know, you've had a fraudster staying at you. This is so we were like all the places because we wanted to warn that if he comes back we even sent to airlines like we were on a hunt and i mean like when we got that picture sent to us that he was actually in a hostel i think that that is where we're like we did it and it. And I remember like the first sentence in the original Tinder Swindler is like, the

journalist was asking me, why do you want to tell this story? And I answer, I don't really want to tell this story. Like, it's not like you have very deep needs, you know, let me tell you, you know. But we knew that this was had a bigger purpose. It's not like we were surprised that we were going to be run over by a bus, you know, doing this and both me and Cecilia knew this even before doing it. We just decided to do it anyway and for a better cause. I just didn't want anyone else to go through what I have been through that someone could

have saved me and just decided not to? Every Wednesday, Kaylyn and Morgan take you deep into the world of the most notorious crimes ever, clue by clue. And I really love the way that they're breaking down the evidence so you can really see how even the smallest things have helped crack some of the most intricate cases wide open. From serial killers to shocking murders, Clues dives into all the forensic details and brilliant sleuthing of the world's most infamous cases. So if you're looking for a show that has compelling storytelling, crime scene analysis, and a new perspective through some of the world's most puzzling true crime cases, you definitely have to check out Clues.

Clues is a Crime House original powered by Pave Studios. New episodes drop every Wednesday. Just search Clues wherever you listen to podcasts. Drop every Wednesday. Just search clues wherever you listen to podcasts. I mean, it sounds like looking back, you guys would think that speaking out gave you healing, some identity, peace?

I mean... It did. How did speaking out give back to you? I think especially for me, I was making the Netflix documentary with Bernie and Felicity who made the documentary, The Tinted Swingler. And it was just like sitting on those pre-calls and everything as well, just going too deep and someone who really understands and knows your story as well. Because then it sort of passed a few years as well. You have sort of had a past with it. And then I really felt that I could leave it behind me, but sharing and talking about it, like I said, like that crucial time in the beginning, Cecilia was my

biggest support that we could just sit on the phone for hours at night and just talk and talk and talk and that just really helped me process as well, like what you have have been through. So I think that that is the most important thing that you can do is like share it with someone that you trust. It's not like I say, it's not for everyone to go out and share your biggest mistakes you have done in your life in public. It's not, I mean, I got so much love. I think I got more love than hate, but of course there is hate when it comes to fraud victims.

I think that something that I've heard from you throughout the time we've talked is that there's this shaming against victims. So when you guys came out, were you surprised by the ratio of hate to love? I think back in 2019, we knew, but I didn't know to the extent that it would be kind of, cause you know, we made it and then it grew more in the traditional viral, like in each country. Then I was not prepared for it.

And I was like, VG sometimes took a picture of me outside of the private jet that I was on. I was like, stop it, you know, please, what is this making me look like? You know, we need Simon's face out there, not mine. And that was pretty heavy around the time. And I tried to argue with people on Facebook and my family saw it. And they were like, Cecilia, don't feed the trolls. When Netflix came out, as Pernilla said, it was a much more

love that came directly. Um, cause I think that showed a bit more of what's happened afterwards and the fight that we've been on. It felt a bit better, but it's tough. Like still today I did a little piece with the world economic forum. They posted on LinkedIn today and as the guy who just goes all in on me and commenting on everything. I saw that at risk management guy commenting, okay, then now I'm solo or something.

I was like, what do you work in this industry and this is how you behave. Like this guy meant that since I'd sent in the fake documents, like he had concocted, I created those fake documents and I knew that they were actual fakes and I just sent them in that I just mean like this is what frosters are doing. They're using the victims, you know, hands and actions and words. So it's nothing in Simon's name. Everything is in my name. So I'm the one kind of doing it to myself.

I think we shame and blame ourselves the most. We don't need to hear from others. I regretted everything I did, you know, to till this day. And there is a lot of anger I have towards myself, but I think knowledge is power. Understanding why I did what I did has really healed me. Academic research, like figuring out the language that the fraudsters are doing, why I ended up in this position where I didn't even recognize myself. And we have even been contacted by people not even in fraudulent relationships, but it's more abusive, like just have nothing to do with money.

But they recognize the messages from Simon and how he treated it. Like that's kind of my God, I might be in a relationship I shouldn't be in. And how empowering isn't that? Like to be able to help people, not even in fraudulent matters, but just this is a relationship I don't want to be in. I don't want to be talked to like this. LESLIE KENDRICK Well, Simon was eventually arrested, but he was released just a few months later. So after everything he put you through and everything you lost, what was it like to see him walk away, walk free so quickly?

Did it feel like justice was even ever served? No, and I think like COVID happened, so that is why he got out earlier from prison. I think for me and Cecilia, our first thought when we saw that he got arrested, we sincerely thought thought that was for all the fraud cases out there. So when we realized that he had been arrested for fake passport and deported to Israel, he didn't have a law to... Extradition order. Extradition, sorry, I lost the English there. That was a huge disappointment because then as well when that happened the Swedish police told me

well we can't get him in Israel so we have to drop you a case like we're not going to get it. So I think that sort of like destroyed, I know it looks very good in the movie and we were really happy at that point. We did go through happiness and he was sent to jail in Israel for old fraud cases he had committed back in the days. So he did serve time. And if I look how Israeli prisoners look like compared to the Swedish ones, Swedish one looks like a hotel. So I think it was sort of like a good punishment in Israel as well.

Our justice is how annoyed he is with how well we're doing. So the better we are doing, the more annoyed he is. And if I can make him feel maybe 0.1% the same way that he has made me feel, I'm quite happy about that. But justice was not served in this case at all. I can't believe that the police didn't get more smack in Europe for letting him go. He has active cases in Germany, in the UK, in the Netherlands, in Sweden, in Spain. Like it's insanity that he was let go.

And I will talk loudly about that till the end, because it's not fair for the amount of victims here in Europe that is still suffering. Everyone just laughs about it, you know, and like laughs about the Tinder swindler and this guy. Don't, you know, don't. And I think it's important to also understand that there are male victims, there are companies, there are companies who lost hundreds of thousands of dollars. We had a group of male doctors from Germany reaching out to us, like a group of seven who got Germany reaching out to us, like a group of seven

who got defrauded of this guy. So I think it's important to sort of set the standard, that this is not just romance scam and women. That is what we focused on on the one documentary, but he's a fraudster in general. He does everything he can. What did he do to the group of doctors? He defrauded them. He don't discriminate in the way of fraud.

He frauds everything, everyone and anything he can get a hands on. To a similar playbook? Yeah, similar playbook, like fraud. I think he was using like a mule, so he's using a middle person, but what we mean is that they will try crypto, they will try investment scams, they will try job scams, they will try online buying stuff that you never get. Prosters do everything. Don't think you're safe just because, oh my God, a romance fraud.

I'll never become a victim of that. I think that there was such like an incel culture that was sort of like raising him up and just like, well, he just punished the women, what women done to us, but just to get back to justice, I would just want to say that justice for me has sort of like changed during the years as well and I think it has for you as well Cecilia. It's not about him anymore, it's more about the system. Like I don't keep track on what he's doing, I moved over with my life because for me if I would let him continuing affect my life in a negative manner, he's

still in a way defrauding me because the most valuable thing I have is not money, it's my time. And don't waste my time, please. Like I don't want to go there. So I think both of us are sort of seeing the bigger picture out there. Like we say, there was wrongs in the systems. Maybe we could have got gotten better help afterwards. Maybe, you know, we got bigger purposes in life now.

Like, we both moved on and created amazing companies afterwards. You can always get more money. You can not always get more time. And it sounds like you guys have reframed to that. So what does peace or closure look like for you now? Not just in terms of justice, but your own life, your relationships, your sense of self. I mean, I feel great.

I've been feeling great for years. I think I serve my justice. You know, I'm getting justice every day, just continuing working with what I'm working on. Like I created my own identity verification company, peer to peer, which is called IDFIRE, which is launching soon. And I mean, I wouldn't have done that unless this happened to me. So I'm very proud of that because people always told us like, well, how could

you not know that he wasn't who he said he was? There wasn't a tool. There wasn't anything that we could have used for everything that people were blaming me about are sort of taking that and created that solution is that with a tech company and with this app that you can actually shake someone's identity between just peer to peer and get it approved. So yeah, if that would have existed and I would have used it, maybe I wouldn't have gotten in this situation as well.

And Cecilia have created her company and you know, everything, it's amazing with the support system and everything that was missing for us. So I think we fulfilled our purposes with our story, but it's still going on. I still have like, I'm going to be honest. I still have grudges. I'm using my anger towards the banks who took me to court that made me have to file for bankruptcy. So my credit is fucked because of this awful individual. I think I just still have a lot of stuff that I had to go through afterwards,

just with the police making me a suspect, but the anger has been fueling me in a good way. I was finally invited back to my home country in Norway last week after six years, so I could finally be on a stage there. I've been barred from almost speaking there because they don't... Yeah, that's my girl. What I did is that I started and I co-founded a non-profit for romance fraud victims. So with that over in the UK, been talking to a lot of both police and financial institutions and we're actually doing a workshop for the moderators at Bumble. It's so nice to be able to make a difference and actually helping out and to show that

victims we have expertise, we have insights, use us. I always say sadness gives you nowhere. I never felt sad about myself. I think then you just lay down and you don't do much. But if you just have that passion and fire and as I said, the anger, I'm not bitter, but I don't want this to happen to anyone else. I don't want anyone else to feel as alone. And I think the feedback we've been getting from other victims who's been writing to us, who says that looking at you guys and see the resilience and see that there is another side and speaking up, thank you so much. And that's is, I think that's the best part about everything is the amount of

people we've saved globally. And nothing's better than that. Yeah, I remember one time I was at a restaurant and then this woman just come up to me and she just gives me a hug and I'm like, Whoa, who are you? And she was like, I'm so sorry for just coming up and giving you a hug, but you literally saved my life. I was in a similar situation and my friend just recommended to see your documentary and I watched it and I realized that this was happening to me and afterwards I found out he had defrauded people, he had raped women, he was an awful person and you saved me. There and then I'm like, yes, just to know that you have done things that have

actually helped people. I think that that is very fulfilling. I think a lot of people just thought that we were normal fraud victims that would just be too ashamed and just, I think that's what Simon was hoping for, you know. That is what worked for him for years. Or all these fraudsters, like they build up the shame. So because a lot of Roma Romans fraud victims, they don't report the crime even. So it's so easy for them to get away with it. Monsters come in all shapes and sizes. They can come from anywhere. The dark corners of your hometown, a past meant to stay buried

and sometimes from within you. If you, like me, are intrigued by all the forms that monsters take, I think you'll enjoy Undertow. Hi, this is Fred Greenholge, creator and host of Undertow, a collection of horror podcasts that bring you under the surface and into the weird and the wicked. Each season, we start a new story, set in a twisted version of the great state of Maine where I grew up fed by the headwaters of great horror masters like Stephen King and Rick Houdelah. In Undertow we'll be confronting ghosts from the past, battling werewolves in the present, wrangling with cursed artifacts, and through it all doing our best not to forget our humanity.

Undertow is available wherever you listen to podcasts or at realm.fm. Stay alert out there and enjoy your time in the Undertow. You guys have both done such powerful advocacy work. Thank you for doing that. Thank you for raising awareness for victims of all kinds of scams. It sounds like it isn't limited to romance. I keep wondering as we're talking, has continuing to talk about this story been helpful

for your healing process or do you ever feel like going back and rehashing it is like opening up a wound again? Sometimes it can be a lot because it's not that you go up on stage and you talk 10 things that made me successful and just you can recreate it. You know, it's really draining because you're trying to get to people to understand the human impact here.

Sometimes I question myself. I'm still in therapy, but I think it's not a lot of people who can do it. They are so beaten down and so ashamed. And if we can do it, I think we just have to continue. It's gonna be worth it in the end, hopefully. But yeah, sometimes I do question. I think I had such a break. I did a lot of talks in the beginning.

And then I got pregnant with my twins. And I was on a pre-term leave with with my kids that I sort of got a very good pause from the entire story. So maybe that is why I maybe don't feel the anger and stuff anymore. It's just like my kids are my world. But I think like now when I'm doing talks and talking about it, I don't feel as much, but I don't do it as often as Cecilia. I focus on my company right now and I sort of want to move forward as well. I don't mind doing a podcast like this and sitting and talking about it, but I don't think I would have the strength as Cecilia have and do it so often. I think that that would drain me a bit or maybe I would have managed now like since I had such a pause from it as well.

I think I really moved on from that story a lot. You know, I was 30 when this happened. I'm 38 today but it's been some years and I think I really processed everything and I'm happy. I feel good and life is wonderful and you know, I feel great and life is wonderful and I feel great. I didn't think that was possible. I'm healed from the fraud in itself. And with Simon, I don't give two shits if he says he didn't defraud us because we know the truth and the documentary couldn't have been made without it being true. But I think for me, it's more the aftermath, which has been more traumatizing for me, which I'm still kind of healing from and trying to kind of move on because it's a bit difficult when you feel injustice.

I think we did a very good trauma therapy as well, like because we just made a book with the Never After that is coming out in August and I think like there we really went into deep, me and Cecilia and there I really had to like go back and relive the story and that was a bit hard because you literally putting in so much effort as well like giving out your worst mistakes. I think writing that book really was like being able to actually tell what happened afterwards because even with the Tinder Swindler Netflix, it's like there was nothing about the aftermath and then kind of setting it straight as well, being honest about how it started for me, you know, that it wasn't the attack in Copenhagen. Kind of just being truthfully honest with people to just give them what happened. Because sometimes when you make a documentary, some choices have to be made, you know?

But so that has been kind of nice to be able to do this. Now it's going to be read the book. But it's not just a retelling of the story. That's part of the book, but it's also we have a lot of experts and everything in the book. And we're hoping for the book even for policing training or anything like can read this book with a lot of professionals in it as well. So and a lot of statistics and everything, I think is a very powerful book. So I see it as a half factual, half biography.

It's a mix of it. It was lovely making that and just all again, take the road back and then be a little bit more rehabbed afterwards again. Yes, swindled never after how we survived and how you can spot a relationship scammer. So it sounds like it doesn't just end with relationship scamming. You mentioned companies and other entities that were scammed by him and also are scammed by, I'm sure, many relationship scammers out there. Do you think that the name, the Tinder Swindler, wasn't as accurate?

What would you have named it? I don't know, but I just thought that it felt like an insult even when they did the first piece and named it the Tinder Swindler. I was like, is that what you want to focus on? Like what about the rest? It sort of grew on me over the years that I was buying when they did the documentary, but I was very disappointed. I know that it's a clickbait and I know that it sells. I understand that, but I really hated that. I hated it. Yeah, like we never know if it wasn't called a Tinder Swindler, would it have been such a big success? Yeah.

We're grateful for it. The Norwegian journalists were the one who called it. And then when there was a Netflix, they called it that too. So we were like, okay, it must be a great title then, you know? But I think for the story we told, we all met him on Tinder kind of. So for me, it was more that when we were made the second documentary, we were maybe hoping that maybe some other factors came into play because we knew much more. And the podcast series that Netflix did, they did the podcast series on it. It was amazing.

And just like so many people missed that. And then they tell these stories about how him and his father, um, trying to commit fraud to the Jewish organizations, like in New York and everything, like they're trying to defraud a rabbi and they have like recordings from those meetings and stuff. People, if you haven't, you know, listen, listen to your podcast, Unicode, but if there isn't, there is more, like that is an amazing three-part series that is showing more than making of the swindler, like how Simon Levi came to be, which is just really god awful, but really great. Well, it's pretty cool that you're working with Bumble because of course Bumble came

from feeling screwed by Tinder, the founder. Yeah. It is. It feels poetic to me. We need everyone to be in on the fight, you know? It's not enough. Like we need the tech companies with us. We need the banks.

Like everyone needs, like we have a joint enemy. It is the criminals. So when we're calling that the system isn't working, it's not that we're against anyone, but it's just to, you know, to show people that there are things happening in the shadow, Sarah. I don't know, it's a collaboration that sort of needs to happen. Instead of people pointing to finger, no, it's wrong with the law system.

No, it's wrong with the bank. No, it's wrong with the victims. No, it's wrong here. It's like a collaboration that needs to happen to change these numbers and these statistics that are out there. I think like the 2024 numbers that the world lost to scam, 2024 was $1.03 trillion to scam. That is an extreme amount of money and we need to collaborate everyone altogether. So I think like what everyone can do and try to do, we need to do,

but probably really need to stop doing is blaming the victims so they don't even fear for reporting the cases because we need people to report the cases as well. Absolutely. And I know there's more in the book about what victims can do if they feel like they have been caught in a scam. If you could just tell somebody listening now who might feel like they are in a bad situation, what would be the first thing they should do? I think what they

have to do is to reach out to someone that they trust and if they don't have anyone they do they trust they can that's what love said why the organization is alive. And because we want to be there for people, they need to go to the police and report. Because we, as Pernilla just said, there's so many dark numbers here that we need everyone to report, even though you feel it's minuscule, it's not worth it. And get ahold of your bank and hopefully in some countries you can get reimbursements. In the UK you can, it's a bit different. But I think you need to open up because the longer you wait, the worse it will become to burst that bubble. Talk to friends, talk to family and know that you are a victim of a crime. You didn't fall for anything. You were

targeted and you were abused. And I think that is so important to use the right language when we talk about this. Cause I think by saying just scams and like, then people don't take it seriously. You know, this is nothing. These are just money loss, victimless crime. No, there are huge consequences here. And I think like not being viewed as a victim can be terrible, you know, and going out there and being told that you deserved it as we got told. Terrible.

I think as well, like both me and Cecilia have had like a common goal that in the hope for law changes, that it's not only going to be viewed as scam, that it's also going to be viewed as emotional abuse. Like it actually is, because if you go through these like, especiallyup scams or emotional scams in general, it is an emotional abuse that you hold it through. And I think that we really need to look into the laws in general, all over the world. I work with an identity verification company that I have, and I'm like, how is it even legal as well to fake your own identity? Why is that not a separate criminal case by itself?

Why is it legal to pretend to be someone you are not and go to these type of extreme levels and especially with the AI and deep faith that we are facing today and all those problems where you can literally create identities like synthetic identities out there. So I think something needs definitely to happen and I will be the biggest advocate for it. And I think that changing the laws, it is my plan and also my goal, but to really try and change that and really try to bring these numbers down as much as possible, because we know that if we bring the numbers down, we will also save lives out there and not have lives to destroy. What happened to you both wasn't just about stolen money, it was about stolen trust, stolen identity, and stolen peace. But the two of you refused to let that be the

end of your story. You really turned devastation into something that could help others. You found each other and in doing so you found strength, purpose, and maybe even something like healing. Your story is such a reminder that scams don't always have to look like a shady phone call or a fake investment. Sometimes they can look like love and the only way to fight back is to shine a light on the shame and to tell the truth. So thank you both for being here today and sharing your strength, your truth, and your voice. Oh, thank you.

Thank you and thank you so much for truth and your voice. Oh, thank you. Thank you. And thank you so much for having us, Nicole. Yeah. Thank you so much for listening. I'm your host, Nicole Lappin. Scams, Money and Murder is a Crime House original. Join me every Thursday for a brand new episode. Here at Crime House, we want to thank each and every one of you for your support.

If you like what you heard here today, reach out on social media, at CrimeHouse. Don't forget to rate, review, and follow Scams, Money, and Murder wherever you get your podcasts. Your feedback truly makes a difference. And for ad-free listening, plus early access and bonus content, subscribe to CrimeHouse Plus on Apple Podcasts. Scams, Money, and Murder is hosted by me, Nicole Lapin, and subscribe to CrimeHouse Plus on Apple Podcasts. Scams, Money and Murder is hosted by me, Nicole Lapin, and is a CrimeHouse original powered by PAVE Studios.

This episode was brought to life by the Scams, Money and Murder team, Max Cutler, Ron Shapiro, Alex Benedon, Stacey Warnker, Sarah Kamp, Paul Leibeskin, and Victoria Asher. Thank you so much for listening.