Money Crimes with Nicole Lapin - John Wayne Gacy: The Real Killer Clown

Episode Date: August 5, 2026

Sabrina and Corinne uncover the double life of John Wayne Gacy: neighbor, community volunteer, party clown, and sadistic killer. Between 1972 and 1978, Gacy murdered at least 33 young men and boys, leaving a legacy so terrifying it bled into pop culture through Stephen King’s Pennywise.For more, follow Crimes Of wherever you listen to podcasts: https://pod.link/1838511303If you’re new here, don’t forget to follow Scams, Money, & Murder to never miss a case! To hear episodes ad-free, subscribe to Crime House+. Join at crimehouseplus.com or if you’re listening on Apple Podcasts, tap “Try Free” at the top of this show’s page. Scams, Money, & Murder is a Crime House Original Podcast, powered by PAVE Studios.🎧 Need More to Binge? Listen to other Crime House Originals Clues, Crimes Of…, Crime House 24/7, Serial Killers & Murderous Minds, Murder True Crime Stories, and more wherever you get your podcasts!Follow me on SocialInstagram: @CrimehouseTikTok: @CrimehouseFacebook: @crimehousestudiosX: @crimehousemediaYouTube: @crimehousestudios

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Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Crimes of Infamy. Sabrina, shall we begin with a little game of two truths in the line? Of course we should. Okay. Today, this game is about the notorious serial killer John Wayne Gasey, known as the Killer Clown. Lovely.

Okay. So, number one, because of his charity work and political activism, John once personally met the first lady of the United States. Okay. Number two, John's clown persona was named Pollywog because he would croak like a frog to make the kids laugh.

Okay. Why can you do that so well? I don't know. Okay, and number three, John hosted annual summer parties for his neighbors that were attended by hundreds of people. Okay, so I'm guessing the lie. Guess the lie? Yeah.

Two of these are truths. Okay. If you can believe it. Because I know about John Mangay. Gacy, I know he wasn't Polly the frog croaking clown. Pollywog. Yeah. Okay.

Yeah, that's true. The truth is, the lie is number two. Because in reality, Gacy had two clown personas. So one was named Patches and one was named Pogo. And Paches was a little bit more serious and Pogo acted a little more silly. But obviously, no matter how he dressed up, John Wing-Ghese was no laughing matter. In today's episode, we'll tell you all about John's horrific crimes. how he became known as the killer clown

and the long shadow he cast over pop culture, including his similarities to the character of Pennywise the clown in Stephen King's It, who is literally nightmare fuel. Yeah, he is. Welcome to Crimes of Infamy, a crimehouse original powered by Pave Studios. Every Tuesday, we're exploring a different corner

of the true crime universe, examining cases that left a permanent impact on society and giving you a front of, seat to every twist and turn along the way. We are your hosts, Corinne Vien and Sabrina Deanna Roga. I will be the one walking you through the chilling narratives of every story. I will be zooming in on the moment and showing you how the very real scenes in these stories played out. If you're loving crimes of, please follow, rate and review us wherever you listen. It helps us build this community and we love hearing from you. To get early access and ad-free listening, subscribe to the

Crimehouse Plus community on Apple Podcasts. You can also catch us on YouTube where we include visuals that bring every case to life. This season is all about the crimes behind the world's most iconic horror movies, and today we're talking about John Wayne Gasey, whose crimes have a lot of connections to the iconic villain, Pennywise, from it. A warning before we begin, this episode contains descriptions of murder and sexual assault, so please listen with care. Between 1972 and 1978, John Wayne Gacy murdered at least 33 young men and boys in Chicago. But before we start talking about him and his crimes,

we always want to start with honoring victims and their memories. These crimes affected real people in real tragic ways, and remembering them is especially important for cases like these, where the killer has become this sort of mythological figure, because out of all of the serial killers out there, John Wayne Gacey stands out, not only for what he did, but for what he wore. Gacy often performed at children's hospitals and birthday parties as a clown, and his charity work helped him avoid suspicion.

But once he was exposed, it put him under the spotlight. After his arrest, the press started calling Gacy the killer clown, which has become a popular horror trope over the years. We've seen it many times. The movie It, based on the novel by Stephen King, features one of the most famous examples of a character like this, Pennywise. And I also want to say, like, of his victim, there are still so many of them who haven't been identified. They found so many bodies. And even some of the identifications have only been made recently.

Right. Because there were some that, you know, maybe weren't marked as missing people. And he really did prey on innocent people. Yeah. I also read a really disturbing fact that when, and we'll get more into the details in this episode, but where he was burying a lot of the bodies, underneath his house in the crawl space, he ran out of space that he was like, do I start putting in my attic? But then he decided to dispose of them in a local river. Okay. So you can see why

people are afraid of clowns. Are you afraid of clowns? I'm actually not. Are you? I'm not. Are you indifferent? Because I'm indifferent. I don't like them, but I don't like them. Yeah. Like I'm not seeking out clowns. Right. But I'm not scared of them in the way. that like when I go to Halloween mazes and spooky places, I don't run away scared from clowns. And in fact, when Bill Scarsguard played Pennywise and it, Bill Scarsguard, despite all that makeup, I still had a crush on him. Yeah. Yeah.

That was definitely a way more attractive Pennywise, the clown. Yeah. We want to be afraid of monsters, but not when they're Bill Scarsguard. Not when they're hot. I mean, in addition to Scars Guard being very a sexy Pennywise and Tim Curry's being a nightmare, I do love Stephen King. And I have, I mean, he's like a horror icon and a literary genius. And it was like one of the first.

I mean, Stephen King was my entryway into especially horror novels. And it is one of the best. And Bangor, Maine, where Stephen King has his residence is still on our truffle. bucket list. Absolutely. We have to. Yeah. But John Wayne Gacy is a clown terrifying. And we know people have opinions about clowns. So let us know in the comments or in our Spotify poll. Are you yay or nay? Love them or hate them. One thing is for sure, one of the scariest fictional clowns out there is the monster known as Pennywise. And we should note that Stephen King has not said the John Wayne Gacy directly influenced Pennywise, but Gacy's story is inextricably linked to the killer

clown trope, and Pennywise is definitely a part of that legacy. Obviously, there's the clown costume. And like John Wing-Gacy, Pennywise mostly targeted young people. Claims a staggering number of victims. And his innocent, wholesome appearance disguises the real monster underneath. I have to say the similarities are undeniable, whether it was on purpose or not, but the big difference is that John Wayne Gacy was all too real, and his actual crimes were so horrific. they would even send a chill down Stephen King's spine. It's late December, 1978. The sun sets over a quiet house in Norwood Park Township, Illinois.

Evidence technician Daniel Genty stands outside the home's cross-based door. He knows something bad is waiting for him in there, but he isn't sure what he'll find. At first, it seemed incomprehensible that someone like John Wayne Gacy could fall under suspicion. Everyone in town loved him. But people have gone missing, and Gacy himself admitted to hurting them. Now it's Gentie's job to find the evidence. He takes a deep breath, gets on his hands and knees, and enters the crawl space. He knows where to look, the southwest corner.

Gentie starts digging and finds a human arm bone. Rotting flesh still attached to it. The more he digs, the worse it gets. Genties seen a lot in his career, but nothing like this. He calls back to his colleagues and says they can definitely charge John Wayne Gacy for murder. But that's not all. He adds one more thing. I think this place is full of kids.

What a heartbreaking thing to discover. And this discovery was just the beginning because 29 bodies would be found on John Wayne Gacy's property. It's so sad. On his property. his property. Yeah, it's beyond comprehension, like the scope of this. And I can't even imagine being an investigator. And we'll get into some of the details. But it's quite upsetting that it was even able to get to that number. And that he's doing this in his own home, burying the bodies underneath his own home. He even was hiring some of his, like, potential victims to-

sometimes his victims that he didn't fully kill. To help dig out these spaces for bodies, under his building. And attempt to mask this smell. And as we'll discuss, there are so many times in this story and in the real life case of John Wayne Gacy where it felt like he almost got caught, but he kept getting away. Yes. So it's very frustrating that this was able to happen. Pretty much everyone in his area knew John Wain Gacey is a really good and decent guy,

which maybe played a little bit into why he was able to get away with it so many times. and he was the sort of person that everyone felt helped kids, not killed them, right? Right. He was a clown. He played a parties. But as more information came out, John Wing-Gacy's true self became clear. And to really understand what brought him here, we have to go back to the beginning. Yes.

John Wenghese's youth, well, I mean, it definitely played a part in contributing to the monster that he would become. He grew up as part of this sort of like perfect nuclear family in Chicago. And his dad was a machinist and a car mechanic. And by day, he was very nice, very friendly, downright charming. But behind closed doors, that man was evil. His father was a monster. Which is very similar to what John grew up to be. Exactly.

Yeah. After coming home from work, John's dad would retreat to their basement to drink. And when he emerged, he would take his day's frustration out on his son. And he would mercilessly beat John. He would treat him, like, not even as a human being with the types of torture that he did. And in 1949, John was only seven years old, yet by that point, his father had really already given up on him. And John was used to being called things like a thief and stupid and sissy by his dad. And yet his response, John and Gasey's response to this, was that he wanted nothing more than to have the approval of his father.

So despite all of this mistreatment, he still viewed his dad as this sort of like idol which is so heartbreaking because it's like his dad's narrative ingrained in him that he was worthless but naturally as kids like all we want is our parents approval regardless of like and love and their love yeah that's all we want yeah and as john got older he did have a few attempts at trying to like stick up for himself against his dad but all of those resulted in a beating so this was like soon realized that John was in this really tough place. And he started to have a lot of resentment for his mother, too, because his mom wouldn't defend him. And she basically was, like, creating excuses for both

of them. She was in the middle, being a mediator, but like the worst mediator that ever existed, because she just was basically trying to avoid the problem and getting involved in any way. And she wasn't there to help her child. Though, we could argue, she probably was experiencing a bit of what John was as well. Yeah, absolutely. You know, and this goes back to a conversation we talked about in episode one where there are plenty of people who go through really traumatic events during childhood and John had siblings. So you would believe that perhaps they're going through the same thing, but only John turns into the monster we now know him to be. So these traumatic coping mechanisms that John Wayne Gacy developed was basically the perfect target for a predator. And unfortunately, when he was younger, he was taken into a field by a teenage girl and was molested.

And later on, a family friend also started molesting John. So John just had nowhere safe to go. And he was really afraid of getting in trouble if he told anyone about what was happening to him, even though he knew that it was wrong. Yeah. But instead, he chose to keep it a secret. Well, that's also another coping mechanism and defense mechanism. Like if you, because he learned if he tried to stand up for himself or speak up, he'd get beat again. Yeah.

So it was like this really, really toxic cycle that then got built into his psyche of, I will just stay quiet. Which is unfortunate that that happens. But yeah, he had to bottle up all of those negative thoughts growing up and he felt like this awkward kid who couldn't do anything right. He was mocked for being overweight. He had this congenital heart defect that basically prevented him from being able to participate in all of the activities. in sports that other kids participated in. And he just felt like he was fundamentally broken and that there was something deeply wrong with him. And no matter what he did, he was the problem. And his dad made sure to remind him of that. Right. And it's so tough like having that heart

condition, which like he can't help. No. But that almost adds to the narrative that his dad was giving it to him. Right. And like heart condition or not, it didn't matter what he did. Everything was wrong. Yeah. Like if he got sick, he was accused of faking it. if he didn't do well in school, his dad said he was just looking for attention. So no matter what, he was in the wrong. John endured that abuse his entire childhood and even into his adulthood. In 1960, when John Wigasy was just 18 years old, he started volunteering with a local Democratic politician.

And you would think that most people would be like, or most parents would be like, well, my gosh, you're so motivated, you're driven, like, what a great thing and celebrate that. But no, instead, John's dad called him a patsy. So basically he was like, you're a wimp. Anything he did. Literally anything. Yeah.

He could have done exactly what his own dad did and his dad would find fault in it. Which he does eventually do. He works at his dad's KFCs. Yep. So by 1962, a 20-year-old John could not stand it anymore. He took his car and he ran away from his home in Chicago. He drove all the way to Las Vegas, which was a place that he had never been before. And, you know, in theory, this is like a great thing, right?

you get to start fresh. You can attempt to leave behind all of the trauma and the things that were in your way in the past and start anew in this new place where no one knows you, no one knows your reputation, and you can do whatever you want. But he still needs a job and he still needs money and a place to stay. And that is how he came to find a job listing for a local funeral home that was hiring an attendant and the job came with housing. Perfect, right? What's the housing, Please tell me. Oh, and it is a cot downstairs next to the dead bodies in the same room where they're prepped for burial.

Great. So this was John's way of making ends meet, but this is one of the contributing moments that would start to completely change the direction of his life. John became totally enamored and fascinated by the embalming process, which I kind of feel like if you're in that career, I hope you are enjoying or curious. Yeah, curious enough. Yeah. But it wasn't, his enthusiasm was different than a lot of other professionals in this career.

Correct. One night, according to the book, Hidden Dreams by Tim Cahill, John decided to do what he later told a psychiatrist was, quote, an experiment. It's dark. Sometime after midnight, John lays on his tiny cot staring into the blackness. He can't sleep. The bed is thin. It's comfortable.

but that's not the problem because there's a nameless anxiety eating at him. His thoughts keep drifting to the teenage boy lying beside him, the handsome, muscular youth, resting in an eternal slumber in a silver coffin just a few feet away, and the body inside. He's not afraid of it. He's actually come to feel companionship from the rotating bodies that come through the funeral home. He's been working at the mortuary for a couple of months now, and death has become routine.

In fact, he finds a strange sense of peace in the embalming room. No one can hurt him there, and nothing even feels real. So there John is. He slides off his cot and shuffles through the darkness with his arms out, almost like a zombie, reaching forward a teenager beside him. Soon enough, he feels the cold top of the coffin in front of him. He extends his hands, caressing the rich velvet interior, his fingers searching for skin. Finally, they graze the body inside, the boy that was taken too soon.

John's breath catches in his throat, a longing courses through his body, and he slowly, cautiously, as softly as he can, pulls himself up and into the coffin and presses himself against the cold skin of the deceased. A mixture of fear and excitement consumes him, and not the fear of the body he lays entangled with, but the fear of being caught. He wants nothing more than to stay here, to remain flesh to flesh with the deceased boy beneath him. The taboo excites him. He lays there, soaking in the feeling. In the harsh light of day, reality hits John, and he is so ashamed. He's so humiliated. All he did was lay there with the boy, right? But, like, that is still not okay. And he knows it's not okay.

He knows it's not okay. And he is so filled with shame that it's enough that he decides he can't be here anymore. He's so terrified of how it made him feel that he enjoyed it. Right. There's that duality, right? It's shame and excitement and desire. Like he wants to do it more. And he knows he should run away from that feeling because it's not correct.

Yeah. Exactly. So he knows what could happen if he stayed in this job any longer. So he calls his mom and asks if he can go home. home to his mom and his abusive father. Yes. So his dad says, yes, but that he has to, you know, get his life together, basically, if they agree to house him again. So over the next few years, John decides to become what his father told him he would never be, which is a success.

He enrolled in a business school and turned out he had a talent for sales. And so this sort of built up his self-confidence. And he even kindled a romance with a co-worker named Marilyn Myers. and in 1964 they were engaged. So now at age 22, he's finally having this life that he dreamed of having and that he thought his father would be proud of. He has a partner. He has a successful job.

He's doing well. He's gaining confidence. People seem to like him. Yeah. But then his life took a dark turn. Sometime in 1964, after John was engaged, he was out drinking with an older coworker, a man named Alan Williams. And that night, John and Alan were not just out to drink.

They were out looking for women. Never mind the fact that John is literally about to get married. His wife is at or his wife to be is at home waiting for him. These men don't seem to care about that, unfortunately. It's also interesting because I read about how John Wayne Gacey was part of the Waterloo, JC. And it's said that he and a lot of the other. members would drink a lot, use drugs, and kind of have, yeah, they were like wife swapping. There were big orgies. Yes. In John McHase's life. He was an entertainer of all sorts

in his like daytime, which he, yeah. Yeah. He's a very layered person and every single thing we learn about him feels so shocking and implausible. And it's just like, how did this person exist. Yes. And again, there are so many people like this that exist. Like there are people who entertain swinging and that type of lifestyle and don't go on to murder people. Yeah. But in the same way, John Wayne Gacy does remind me a little bit of the BTK killer in that he had this whole entire facade of who he was as a person and a family guy and social with neighbors and just like a normal, normal life and then behind closed doors it is the most sadistic and sick vile torture and murder that you could think of 100%. And that is why I think it's so apropos that he then gets into

clowning. I don't know if that's the verb you would use for what he does, but it makes sense. It's like this mask that he has to put on. But the mask is scary. He has scary makeup. But he is scary. And that's like the whole like it's literally a metaphor that he wears. Yeah. Okay, well, so Alan and John are out drinking. They're trying to pick up ladies, but they strike out. Alan wasn't really bothered by it, though. And then he sort of makes this advance at John. He said, it doesn't matter. He doesn't need a woman because men are just as good. And then he invites John back to his house. And according to John, Alan made them some drinks. And the next thing he knew, he was naked. And Alan was performing oral sex on John. Yep. In that moment, despite everything that was going on and maybe like the way that it happened, John did say it felt good and so he continued to let it happen. Yeah.

And just like that, like that same night that he was in the coffin pressed against that teenage boy, the next morning he felt so overwhelmed with shame. Not for cheating on its wife, not for doing a thing that he didn't want to do, but because he thought Alan had outsmarted him. That is where the shame came from. And it's almost like that's what he needed to tell himself. But I think deeper and psychologically, it probably is the shame of, you know, his dad is such a rule follower. Everything that John does is wrong.

There's society says, like, you should be, if you're a man, you should be with women. And the shame that he must have felt because his desires were for men. Right. Or even just the need for control. right? And that, yes. Get you before you get me because his father was always in control. He never had the upper hand. The second he thought he did, there was a way that his dad could spin it. Yeah. There's so many different layers to this. So many different layers. So after that night, John never told anyone about what happened between him and Alan.

And well, he did eventually, but not for a long time anyway. Shortly after he and his fiancee, Marilyn, they get married. And over the next few years, He cheated on her constantly. Yep. Seemingly with men and women. And all the while he acted like he was this normal, conventional family man, hosting parties in their backyard, doing the things that, you know, the house and the white picket fence things you do. Which you can only imagine because clearly he has all these other burning desires that are in the back of his mind constantly. And he's acting on some of them. But there's also a lot of them that he's not acting on, which I imagine.

imagine that does a lot to someone psychologically. Right. By 1967, he was 26 years old, happily married with two kids, and overall he was succeeding at keeping up this facade. That's how the town viewed him. During that time, John and his wife had moved to Waterloo, Iowa, and there John managed three KFC restaurants, and he was elected the VP of a local social club. So this is really, I think, a moment where we can recognize. recognize that he's becoming a person in power. Right. And he likes that power.

Mm-hmm. But this was not enough for John because this was not what he really wanted. What he really wanted was that same feeling he got inside that funeral home, inside that coffin, and that continued to haunt him. And the dark desires he repressed for so long finally were rising to the surface. In 1967, 26-year-old John Wayne Gesey was the talk of his tiny Iowa community. He had a good job managing three KFCs. He had a wife. He had a one-year-old son and a baby daughter.

Also, he was having everyone call him colonel. Like, at his job. At his job. Because he thought he was so great at it. And even in his social settings, he was like, call me a colonel. Like, I could just imagine him being like this boisterous person in social settings, just pumping his own ego.

Yeah. And like in his political aspirations that he had, too, he had some really strong opinions. about like littering and things like that. So he was very involved and made his voice heard by a lot of people. Yep. So he had big dreams of becoming the town mayor and maybe even a state senator one day. But one night in August, all of that came crashing down.

John smiles as he takes in the scene unfolding in his basement. His wife and kids are away for the night. So he is taking the opportunity to have some fun. On his way home from work, John spotted one of his colleagues' kids walking down the road. 15-year-old Donald Borges, John pulled over and the two got to talking. John asked Donald what he was doing out all by himself, and Donald told him he was coming home from his girlfriend's house. So John saw this as an opportunity.

Putting on his best fatherly voice, he asked Donald if he and his girlfriend had slept together yet. And it seems like Donald said no, because John then suggested something. He had some dirty movies back at his house, and he would be happy to show them to Donald so that Donald could learn a thing or two. Donald went along with it, and now the two of them are on John's couch, drinking and watching porn together. And once Donald was nice and drunk, John made his move. Everything about this is wildly inappropriate. Absolutely. It's like abusing your role of power, which is all of... a common theme with John. And this is also something that he does with multiple of his victims. He invites

them over to his home, gets them drunk, and then makes them move on them. Yeah. And many of his victims are kids that are runaways or don't have good family lives. And so he's supposed to be this figure who has more power, who seems to have life together. And maybe they're seeing a little bit of like a friend or a mentor in him. And he totally takes advantage of that. 100%. And especially if someone like Donald Voorhe's, his dad works with John. So he knows John.

He recognizes him. He trusts John in the sense that he's like, I've seen him around. I know he's not a stranger. Yeah, it's totally fine. He certainly couldn't have ever thought of what would come next. So that night, John forced Donald into oral sex. And over the next few months, he did the same to. several other local teenagers.

Using a mixture of blackmail, manipulation, and shame, he kept them quiet about the abuse. Which is also so sad because when you think about the cycle of abuse and how John was abused and molested growing up and silenced. And now he's doing it to others and it just breaks my heart. And even the neighbors, after the fact, after everything came out, they said that they would see in the middle of the night young men teenage boys going into the house with John and they would hear screaming at times but they didn't think much of it because I don't think they wanted to accept what they were seeing because it was so starkly different from who they thought John was.

Yeah. It's like the bystander effect. It is. So all of these boys kept quiet about what happened to them about John's abuse until March of 1968 when Donald told his father what happened And then John was arrested. And John was furious. Would you want to be like, woohoo, he got arrested? But no, we're going to be upset about what happens because, well, so John saw himself as the victim here in this really twisted sort of way that he had created his mind. He blamed Donald for setting him up. No matter what he did, it was always someone else's fault.

Sounds familiar. That he did this or whatever. So once he was out on bail, John bribed one of his employees to get revenge. And for $300, the employee beat Donald in the middle of the night in the woods to try to stop him from testifying. It didn't work. Thank goodness. But how horrific. Yeah.

Poor Donald. It's like he can't get away from this guy. Yeah. So in May, John was convicted. And in December, he was sentenced to 10 years in prison. His wife, Marilyn, filed for divorce. And John never saw her or his kids ever again. And I will say I'm very proud of Marilyn.

in this moment for just getting out of there. Right. Like props to her. It's really hard. It's really hard in abusive relationships to walk away. And she did. Yeah. And she saved herself in her kids in that situation.

Because I can't even imagine having the children grow up in that house when they get to a certain age two. Talking about the cycle. It's hard to even think about, yeah. But the cycle continues. Yeah. So John didn't fall into a deep depression like you would think he would after losing his wife and losing his kids. No, he is in denial. It's everyone else's fault, right? Yep. So he lied to

his fellow inmates about his conviction, telling them that he was framed for being part of a grand political conspiracy, not for raping a child. Right. And that kept him from falling apart until a year into a sentence when his father died of cirrhosis, a liver disease caused from prolonged alcohol abuse. Yeah. And John wasn't allowed to go see him because he was. He was. incarcerated. Right. And John was a little bit surprised at how much this loss devastated him, but it really did. It affected him so deeply to his core because I don't think he recognized how much his father basically played a huge role in who he was. And also, we're not psychological professionals, but I can imagine that that loss is complicated on many levels

because now that his dad is gone, well, you're afraid from your abuser in a way. But he can also never get the approval he always sought. True. Oh my gosh. Yeah. So in his grief, John's internal battle grew. And there he sat and imprisoned for a crime that he knew he committed. But swore he didn't. The swore he didn't. His wife is gone, children, gone. And his father was right. John was useless. He was a broken man who would never amount to anything sitting here in prison caught for his crimes. He felt his father had seen it in him since childhood. And that was a feeling he could no long or ignore. That was his truth. He was useless. And these feelings plagued him and he continued to do

what he did best. He would bottle them up. He would ignore them and he would blame everyone else. Yeah. But no matter how hard John tried, these feelings were still there, always lurking beneath the surface, driving every decision he would make. So he kept his head down. He did the best that he could trying to stay out of trouble in prison. And in 1970, his efforts were awarded after serving just 16 months of his 10-year sentence, John is released on parole for good behavior. How is that allowed? It's also upsetting because shortly after being released, he broke his parole. Like, he did attack another young boy who reported it, and it went nowhere.

It went nowhere. But wasn't it because they thought that John would be more believed than the kid? The kid. And so they thought that it wasn't worth it. Yeah. There's a lot of negligence in this case because, because again, John was so charming and beloved by his community. Yeah. So now 28, he returned to his hometown of Chicago and he got a job as a cook at a local bar. And he told the people that were closest to him that he would never go back to jail, that he was turning over a new leaf. He was going to be exactly who they always thought he was. Where do we think this is going? Well, I think we all probably recognize his name, so I think we all know where this is going. Yep.

His records were eventually sealed, keeping his crimes hidden from prying eyes, which is, again, really upsetting. Right, because it's not like he was a minor. Like, how did that happen? No, I have questions. It wasn't really clear why they were sealed, but this can be done to help people with criminal convictions turn their lives around, which John seemed to be doing. But he didn't stay on the street and narrow for very long because almost immediately, he assaulted several male sex workers. Several.

About two years after his release, his crimes escalated, and in January of 1972, John picked up a young runaway named Timothy McCoy at the bus station, and John invited Timothy back to his house under the guise of letting Timothy get some rest until the bus arrived. And then, just like he did with so many of his other victims, John gave Timothy alcohol and forced him into oral sex.

And after that, John passed out on his bed. And according to John, the next thing he remembers is that he woke up to the sight of Timothy standing over him with a butcher knife in his hand. And so now John says that he is reacting instinctively, right? He thinks Timothy is about to attack him. And so he struggles over the weapon. He drags him onto the ground. And in the chaos, John stabbed Timothy to death multiple times. Timothy had not been trying to attack John. And John. And John. John only realized this after brutally killing Timothy. He walked into the kitchen and saw that there was food being made and realized that Timothy had been making them breakfast and had just come with the knife to go wake up, John. I mean, there's so much to unpack here. Or so he says, right? It's all so he says.

Like, Timothy is now deceased, murdered by John. So the story gets to be spun and told from John. And as we can tell, as we've talked about in this episode, John is really, really good at lying to himself, lying to everyone around him. So we'll never really know what happened. We don't. John claims this was an accident, but whether it was intentional or an accident, this was the very first life that he took. Yeah.

And he wasn't about to call police and confess to it, right? So instead, he put Timothy's body in a shallow grave in the house's crawl space. The police never came looking for Timothy. nobody knew that John had been with Timothy and so he went about life as normal right like everything is just normal in John's life there's not a dead body that he murdered underneath his house and also this is common with killers

after they do commit their first murder there's this like fear of are they going to get caught and then when they don't the control the excitement the cockiness. Yeah, exactly. It just gets more confident. Yeah.

Yeah. And apparently between all of this, he has time to start dating again and he finds a new relationship. So a few months later, after his first murder, 30-year-old John reconnected with an old flame from high school named Carol Hoff and the two planned to marry in July. But just nine days before the wedding, John's Darkside reemerged. It's June 22nd, 1972. and John Wayne Gacy cannot sleep.

He watches the minutes tick by on the clock as his mind wanders. Sometime after midnight, he leaves his sleeping bride-to-be and climbs into his black Oldsmobile and cruises Chicago's north side. The car rumbles slowly along the streets, dotted with seedy nightclubs and dive bars. Flickering street lamps cast warp shadows on the grubby buildings. And this is not the first time he's come out here, because buying him. now he is a regular in the area. He knows exactly which alleys to go down and which ones to avoid. As he drives, he forgets all about Carol back at home in bed and turns his thoughts to the young

men working the streets. John heads to a spot he's been to before and pulls over in front of a young man. He rolls down his window and flashes some newly installed red spotlights on the roof of his car. The sex worker approaches cautiously, and John pulls out a phony police badge out of his pocket. He threatens to arrest this young man, unless this young man climbs into his passenger seat. Then the two of them take off weaving through darkened roads until John finds a secluded area where the two of them can be alone. There, under the false threat of arrest, he sexually assaults the young man, mocks him, and then kicks him out of the car. This whole time, John has a smile on his face. When he's finished, he goes back home, takes a shower, and crawls into bed with

his fiancee. Just one week later, John and Carol tie the knot. They are now married, and these newlyweds, now with two kids, because Carol had two kids from her previous marriage, they live in bliss, right? maybe the honeymoon phase, right? I already don't trust men. And this is just really doubling down on that trust. This is even like there's a little bit of the Ted Bundy pulling into this too where it's like there's the people that they date that it's like, do you know what's happening? Do you have suspicions?

Right. There's more victims being added to the list even if they weren't the ones he was targeting to kill. Well, then also just in general, do you know anyone? Can you ever actually know any? Do I even know you? Who are you? Who am I sitting beside? I don't know. I don't know what you do after hours. That's true. I do know you spend a lot of time with Noah holding him.

I'm a mom, so I know what I do after hours, which is not get any sleep. But it's crazy to think that you could be living in a home with someone. Right. Yes. Married to someone. And while you're not really not at all. They could be slipping out doing God knows what. And if you see them slipping out too, I feel like this is something that also had talked about, like, he was never around soon after the honeymoon phase. Yeah. He was never around. She watched him leave in the middle of the night.

He would sleep for, like, two hours at a time, if that, and just disappear. And she started to just, like, not care, not want to know, right? Like, they became so disconnected. And she could probably think, like, he's just having an affair. Because that's, like, the worst my mind would want to go to. I certainly wouldn't think he was a, like, a serial killer. Right, exactly. And that he was stuffing bodies in our home in the basement.

Yeah. Yeah. So after about a year of bliss, Carol started feeling a little bit neglected because John was working really late all the time. He was busy with a new construction company called Painting, Decorating and Maintenance, PDM for short. And this is a company he owned and launched, so he was heavily involved in it. But Carol suspected that those late nights that took him away from home were really just an excuse and that he wasn't actually at work. Right. But like you said, she thought that he was just having an affair.

And she did poke around a bit and tried to kind of like do her own sleuthing to see who's he having an affair with, what's going on. And she found some dirty magazines hidden in the garage filled with pictures of naked men. And she didn't really know what to think of this discovery, right? Right. Because they were married. And she didn't know what to do. And for a moment, she decided she would just ignore it. But shortly after, she spotted John leaving.

the house in the middle of the night with a young blonde boy. And this time, Carol tried to confront John and ask, what is going on? I saw you with this kid, like what's going on? And he completely dismissed her that it is none of her business. The cycle of abuse continues. Yeah. So he turned it into a pity party, of course, because everything is, he's the victim here, right? And he was insisting that he was working around the clock to pay for their house and to take care of his mother. And And them and the kids. And deep down, Carol knew that this was a lie. But she was like, oh, my gosh, this is like very scary. I don't know what's going on. And he's, he's very passionate about whatever excuse he's giving me. Or emotionally volatile. Right. And so she backs off.

She leaves John free to do whatever he wants. She doesn't pay attention to it. She ignores it. She doesn't ask questions about it. John hires teenage boys for his construction business. He was already working with teenage boys at the KFC. So his whole career is surrounded by teenage boys. Which is not a mistake. He worked as a clown with kids. He has children around him constantly. So he hired teenage boys for his construction business only to manipulate and sexually

assault them. So this was basically like his stomping grounds. And again, he's in a position of power. He is their employer. A lot of these kids, they are desperate for money and they don't have the solid homes to go home to. And so they kind of have to stay in a way or they feel that they do. Yeah. If they refuse his advances, he pretends that this was all a big joke. This was the test. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. Aren't I so funny? With all of John's extramarital endeavors, he became less interested in playing the part of the

perfect husband. And actually, he had pitched to Carol that they stopped having sex entirely. And Carol was like, wouldn't be happier to stop having sex with you, you gross, gross man. So John slept on the couch most nights, if he was even at home, which oftentimes he wasn't. And usually he was out on the streets cruising for sex workers, cruising for his next victim. He posed as a homicide detective at gay bars. He called himself Jack Hanley. He doesn't look like a Jack. No.

On the side, he continued to hire desperate young men and continued to attack them and sexually assault them. Yeah. By 1975, John was now 33 years old. He already had so many victims at this point, and it had been three years since he killed Timothy McCoy. Throughout that time, he continued to insult the boys that he hired at his company, and though it didn't escalate beyond that like it had with Timothy, that changed July 31st of that year when a familiar rage overtook him. It's early in the morning and John is driving home, drunk, and disappointed. After hours of cruising his usual spots, he is returning empty-handed. Woozy from too many glasses of scotch, he sways in and out of his lane,

and he's almost back home when he notices a familiar face on the side of the road. It's one of his employees, 18-year-old John Bukovic, who goes by Little John. That makes Casey Big John, a nickname he liked a lot. He pulls over and Little John lumberes up to his car. it's clear that he is just as drunk as Big John, if not more. And now that he's full of liquid courage, he's got a bone to pick with his boss. He demands back pay that he says he's owed.

So John invites him to come sit in the passenger seat and says, they'll sort it all out. And he says his wife and kids aren't home so they can deal with it back at his place. Little John agrees, but he seems to get angrier with each passing minute. And by the time they're at John's house, He's threatening to beat Big John to a pulp. When they get inside, John gets the boy even more drunk

and tries to diffuse the situation. When that doesn't work, he drunkenly restrains little John. Calling it a magic trick, he pulls out handcuffs that he carries when he's posing as a homicide detective, and he tricks little John into putting them on, swearing up and down he's just trying to show the young man something. Once the young teenager has his hands behind his back, there is no need for John to keep up the facade. He throws the boy to the floor and sits on little John to restrain him.

The last thing John remembers is laying down next to his victim and blocking out. And when he wakes up the following morning, there's a rope wrapped tight around little John's neck. And he's no longer breathing. And this would become John's MO, right? There was a lot of sitting on his victims doing this sort of magic trick to get them in a position where they couldn't fight back. Yeah, that's horrible. It's really horrible. And on July 31st, 1975, 33-year-old John Wing-Gasey claimed his second victim, 18-year-old John Buchavitch.

He buried little John in his garage and covered the evidence for the concrete. But also, like, I just am still so stuck on how is he doing all of this work under his house and people are not calling it in or suspicious of it. People didn't want to accept, I think, what they knew was happening. Yeah. Or maybe, I don't know. Because he kept saying that he was, like, digging holes to lay pipe work for his sewage system. That was like the lie he kept spinning to people.

And even to his own family because they're. And to his own family because they were like, what is this rancid smell in our house? And he was like, oh, don't worry about it. It's just sewage. And then he would hire more boys to come. Cover it with line. And try to cover. Some of them to dig their own graves.

Yeah. So though police questioned him after the murder, he was never considered a serious suspect. Well, because I'm pretty sure little John Bukovic's parents knew that John was going to go confront Big John at some point about the money he was owed. And so John's parents were like... Check his employer. Yeah, because we know that he was going to go ask for the money. And John's like, oh, we figured that out. And he went on his way with his money.

It's just so wild that the police were so close, right? I know. He would take so many lives, but after just two lives, the police were alerted of him being a potential killer. And yet nothing came of it. Nope. So getting away with it, that really made John just feel even more confident. and he became even bolder with his actions.

And he started to indulge in his sadistic desires and gave him a really big rush, one like nothing else. So he started going out more than ever, and he paid even less attention to his wife and her two kids. And it was like he basically gave up on that part and was just giving Carol excuses if she ever did ask, though I don't think she asked often because they were not in a good place at this point.

Because it's clear Carol was just playing a part for John. Like, he wanted to look like this normal average. He needed a wife, even though he was clearly attracted to men, although men is not even the right word because he was attracted to boys and murder. And kids. And then once he was getting so confident with his crimes, he was like, oh, I don't need Carol. Right. I can do this without anyone. You're getting in the way.

Yeah. Luckily, Carol, even if she had started to see things that were going on and maybe having some suspicions, she in October. said she wanted a divorce from John. And once she was out of the house, John really embraced his dark side wholeheartedly because he had no one to sneak around in the dead of night. Yeah. So he spent nearly every night either looking for sex or looking for another victim. At the same time, though, he was very careful with keeping up appearances during the day.

And he joined a new social group called the Moose Lodge to make connections. And that is how he got involved with the Jolly Joker Clown Club. So this was a small organization within the Moose Club that mostly performed for kids at holiday parties. And there was a lot of demand for it, actually. There were hundreds of kids who would show up at these events. And ever the public servant, right, John, he's such a community guy. He agrees to join the Jolly Joker's ranks, but he wasn't just doing it for them. John took to clowning almost immediately, and he said that it acted almost like a tranquilizer for him. So it was a way of him being able to like hide beneath a costume and run away from himself. Well, because for so long he's been

trying to hide that dark side of him inside of his, you know, physical self and to the public. But when he puts a mask on, like he literally is hiding. Yeah. He gets to be a completely different person. Yeah. Who's John, not him. John spent hours crafting his characters who he called Pogo and patches. Which is also interesting that he had two personas. And one was good and one was bad. It's literally his day to night. Yeah. It's still him. Yeah. So he got everything that he needed for this costume. He had professional makeup, detailed puppets, balloons, special props for his shows. And by all accounts, he was actually really good at it. He was a great clown. And every time he performed, he left kids smiling and laughing. And he really loved the limelight. He loved to be the center of

attention and he got a lot of praise for it and this again just like built up even more confidence in him and allowed him to be more brazen in other areas of his life. I don't have a fear of clowns per se but I think if I walked into the Jolly Joker Club I would be afraid. Like that like a room full of clowns because I'm also imagining like really bright lights like almost like hospital lights. I don't know how many clown how many clowns are there. I don't know, but I just, the way I'm picturing it in my mind is way creepier. Yeah. Than a Halloween horror nights.

Right. Clowns in mazes. Well, I do wonder, despite some of his costume makeup being quite creepy in terms of like what clowns typically look like who perform for children, I do wonder if he gave off those vibes because he did say that it made him feel more like he could act like a kid again and kind of like relive some of his youth. So I think he was as a clown. being this really like wholesome, joyous type of character as Pogo.

As Pogo. Yeah. Not as patches. That's, ugh. It's so bad. It's so creepy. Yeah. Don't look up pictures of him unless you're watching on YouTube and then you're welcome.

You're welcome for the nightmares. But even when he was dressed up in this costume and trying to escape himself and just be the kid and have the childhood that he wish he had. those feelings of frustration and loneliness and rage that just still started to fester and bubble to the surface. He could not keep it down for long patches. And when he felt like that, a different side of the clown came out. In the summer of 1975, John bounces through a park, dresses Pogo the clown. He forces a smile onto his painted face, taking exaggerated steps so he doesn't trip on his big red shoes. The sun beats down, soaking his collar and sweat. It is just too hot to be wearing all of these layers. Kids swarm around him, screaming and giggling, but he doesn't feel the

usual sense of fulfillment. Instead of feeding his ego with their attention, they seem more like annoying, needy little mosquitoes. He knows they don't want to laugh with him and hear his jokes. They only want the candy he has in his pocket. He looks at their swollen, greedy faces. He's already given out treats to most of them, but they lie, claiming they haven't gotten any yet. John laughs in his clown voice, teasing them. He scampers playfully away while trying to suppress the fury he feels building inside of him. As gently as he can, he scolds the children who chase him. He doesn't have enough candy for everyone to get an extra share. But they plead with him anyway. They lie, lie, lie. One of them, a particularly persistent six-year-old, trails Pogo like he's stocking him.

He tugs on the clown's sleeve, begging for candy with glassy eyes. Meanwhile, John can see gumballs and chocolate kisses bulging out of his little pockets. It's too much to bear, maintaining his forced grin, John Bellows. bends down to the little boy, pinches the kid on his cheek. Not a playful pinch, this is meant to hurt. And the boy's eyes fill with tears. John bends even closer, his round nose pressing against the child's face, and he whispers, Get away from me.

He finishes by cursing the boy out in disgusting detail. The kid yelps and scurries away crying. And for the first time that afternoon, Pogo actually has a genuine smile on his face. That reminds me so much of the scene in the more recent it, where they're at the park and Scars Guard as Pennywise is under the bleachers, and the little girl has like the lollipop. Yeah, it's also, I mean, it's just, this is also just reminiscent of like John Wayne Gacy's attitude

and just the way that he went about so many of his crimes. Because for as many people as he murdered, he also came close to murdering so many more. And then randomly would be like, oh, now I need to care for you. It was like this weird thing of like, I want to hurt you, but now I don't. I mean, it's the battle that's going on in his head. Right. And I know that when he was first arrested and only spent 16 months in prison, he was examined by a psychologist and determined to have antisocial personality disorder. And then I know later in life, like they looked at him. And we can also

look at, there's plenty of psychological examinations of John Wayne Gacy. And he is riddled with psychological disorders. Yeah. The DSM hates to see him coming. Oh, God. Well, despite the occasional slip-up, John's performances as Pogo the Clown became legendary around town. And he performed at children's hospitals. And he was even a regular fixture at birthday parties. So this went beyond his social club. He was now the clown at the town. And usually he did this without any kind of payment. Like it was just for his joy. I didn't know that part. Or maybe the enjoyment of the children. I don't know. But yeah, no, he didn't ask for payment for this usually. He spent so much time clowning that it was hard to see where he actually got the energy for all of his clowning, especially given that this man

never slept. Right. Most of his days, he was working long hours in construction, managing dozens of projects. And in the evenings, he had his social club, a bowling league, dates with friends, volunteer engagements for the local Democratic Party. And now he's also clowning. And several times a year, he also threw these massive, massive block parties in his neighborhood. And he was in charge of also organizing an official parade. So like this guy had a million commitments. Yeah, what I love sleep too much. Like I can't even, I can't even fan them. I can't I can organize my thoughts enough to have three of these. Not that this is us.

We're not giving him praise for this. We're just don't understand. It's also just frustrating because imagine what he could have done with that energy. Right. Right. And in ways he was doing good in many different areas, which maybe is why he was doing so much, was to make up for what he was doing outside of that. Yeah.

So yeah, that alone, all of those things would be way too much for most people. But once night fell, he did not fall asleep to recover from his long day's work. He instead drank and smoked and partied and killed. Yeah. Between 1975 and 1978, he murdered at least 30 boys and young men. Yeah. His M.O. resembled the way that he killed John Bukovic. He would invite his victims back to his house.

He would get them high or drunk. And sometimes he offered to pay them for sex. then he would pull out a pair of handcuffs. Sometimes clown toys came out too. And he showed his victims a magic trick. He would demonstrate how he could break free of the cuffs acting like it was all for fun. And then he would say, hey, you should try this too and convince them to put the cuffs on themselves. But once the cuffs were on, John would immediately drop the act.

And then that is when he would sexually assault his victims, torturing them in many horrific. ways and eventually would strangle them. I mean, he had one victim that he truly tortured for hours and hours and hours. There were a few, but who got away. Yeah, are you thinking of the one that had asked to be killed, like, during the torture because it was so much. Oh, probably. And then John, his response was, I'm getting to it. Yeah. Awful. When he did kill his victims, once they were dead, John stashed their bodies under his bed for the night, and then he would sleep soundly above them, usually in a drunken stupor. Which is so similar to, like, part of his origin story that night in the morgue in Las Vegas, where he crawled into the casket with that body. Yeah. The next day,

he would stuff the corpse in a crawl space in the garage. He would layer quick lime and cement over the bodies to block the smell, although it never really went away entirely. People could definitely still smell it. And since he owned a construction company and definitely had plenty of access to cement, nobody thought it was really weird that he would buy so much of this material or these materials. And also since he lived alone at this point, there was no one asking him really what he was doing. After three years of this, he started to feel super invincible and a little more brazen, way more confident, but it was only a matter of time before he made a mistake. On December 11th, 1978, he met a 15-year-old named Robert Pest at a local drugstore. Witnesses overheard him

offer Robert a job, and a few hours later, the boy went over to John's house to talk more about the work, and then the boy was never seen again. I'm also pretty sure he met him at a local store where John Wayne Gacy had like gone into the store, seen him working there, left, came back, talked to him about this job, and then Robert's mother came to pick him up from work. And Robert was like, hold on, I'm going to talk to this guy about a job he has for me and was never seen again. Right. And this was John's big mistake because his previous victims were oftentimes runaways or kids

who were very disconnected to their family. Yeah. Robert was not. Right. So his mom is obviously like, who was that strange man? He talked to you because clearly he had people looking for him immediately. Yeah. So for the first time in decades, John became a serious suspect. Authorities finally investigated the 37-year-old and discovered his criminal history. And when they put him under around-the-clock surveillance, John started behaving very strangely. He drank heavily. He acted erratically. He actually started hanging. He actually started hanging. hanging out with the officers assigned to follow him, which I'm like, what was their response? Are they, does he view it as hanging out? What are they doing in response to this? Because this doesn't seem like an appropriate hang session. I think they were letting him talk. Yeah. On December 19th, he invites the officers into his home. I do think this is really interesting that now that the heat is on him, he's feeling the pressure. And it's the first time in years.

He's really, really feeling like, oh, shit, I made a mistake and they're watching me. And either he's trying to seduce them in a way, just similar to Ed Kemper, who really did outsmart so many authorities. Yeah. Or he is just so completely blinded by how many times that he has gotten away with it that he thinks that he's invincible. They can't get him. Right. Or maybe he even gets off on the idea of them walking around these bodies and not knowing what they're on top of. Well, he invites them into his house. Officers Robert Schultz and Ronald Robinson

stand in the cold rain, staring daggers at John Wayne Gacy's back as he unlocks the front door. They have a strange relationship. John knows he's a suspect in Robert Pest's disappearance, but he treats the officers like they're his pals, and today he's invited them in for a drink. So Robinson and Schultz exchanged a knowing look as I head in. to the living room because they've been planning for this. So Robinson is going to distract John while Schultz takes a look around to see if he can find anything suspicious. And when John goes behind the bar to make them drinks, the officers bring into action.

Robinson makes small talk while Schultz excuses himself to use the bathroom. He walks through the hallway, passing by a darkened room full of clown paintings. And he knows the kids love John's act, but he's always found. it creepy. And it's one thing to perform as a clown, and it's a completely other thing to have an entire room dedicated to paintings of them. Schultz makes it to the bathroom, flips on light, and the exhaust fan, because he wants to make some noise so John doesn't hear him as he looks around. To really sell it, he flushes the toilet for good measure, and as he finishes up, the heater kicks on. And that's when he smells it. The unmistakable scent

of rot. At first, Schultz actually thought that this was just a sewer leak in John's house, which is basically the exact same excuse that he was giving to neighbors. And to the boys that he worked for him that he was hiring to dig in the basement. Yes. But it did not take Schultz very long to realize what he was actually smelling. Two days later, the police got a search warrant. And on the afternoon of December 21st, 1978, they took a look around John's crossbe

and found various objects that made them realize there was a lot more hidden under there. And it's tough because with that first search warrant, it was specifically in regards to evidence of Robert. And so when they didn't find any DNA evidence of Robert, but they found all these other objects like a high school ring and driver's licenses, they went back and got a second warrant and they were like, this is a much bigger thing. We think there are, who knows what is potentially buried in their crawl space. So they got a second warrant. Which also is so scary the time between leaving that house and trying to get a second

warrant from a judge because what if all of that evidence was wiped in that time? Or if John runs. You can't use it from before. Yeah. But so they get the second warrant and they go back to the crawl space. And after just a few minutes, they found four bodies in the crawl space. and that was more than enough to place John under arrest. And once he was in custody, he actually confessed to everything, which I kind of find shocking because he blamed everyone else for everything. So I'm shocked that he was able to bring himself to give details of what happened. I guess how do you, there's, okay, there's a couple of things here that we could discuss. One, how do you walk your way or talk your way out of this now that all these bodies are found in your crawl space? True.

Two, I think the pressure was really intensifying on him that there's probably a little bit of relief that he doesn't have to lie anymore. And there are a lot of discussions around serial killers and killers in general where is there like a desire to be caught? Yeah. And even the way that he did talk about his crimes in those confessions and in those interviews, it was almost a casual in a way where maybe he did want to be caught like what you were saying. or he just loved attention and now this was a new way of getting attention. Right. He was still the center of attention. And there's a lot of commentary on how he remembered so much detail.

Like we talked last week about Ed Gein and how he had blackouts. He didn't have memory. But with John Wayne Gacy, he is very like, I was present. I was aware of what I was doing. It was premeditated. And he would reference old victims. He'd be like, oh, just like I did to that. Boy, I did to this one too.

Yeah. So John provided a formal statement where he admitted to murdering about 30 young men. The police had found him just in time because John also admitted that he was planning to cover the whole crawl space in concrete in January, basically making them inaccessible. And had the police had the search warrant, then they probably would have never found these bodies. Right. So the evidence was not sailed away forever like John McGeezy had planned. And instead, he waited behind bars while investigators kept digging and digging and digging. And by the time John went on trial about a year later on February 6th, 1980, he was charged with 33 murders, which at the time was the largest number charged to one person in U.S. history.

That's, I mean, that's a devastating amount. Yeah. He was found guilty for all of them, and he was sentenced to death. John spent the next 14 years on death row, and at first he loved to talk to the press. He craved the attention. And like Ted Bundy, his story became part of the myth of the American serial killer, the unassuming monster next door only with a twist. And the killer clown was born.

But eventually, John's old habit of denial returned. He started insisting that he had never really confessed to all of those murders, right? And during the original confession, he'd never asked for a court reporter. So there was an official written record of exactly what he had said at the time, which feels like the fault of the court. 100%. So in his appeals, his lawyers claimed that he wasn't mentally competent to stand trial. But none of that helped his case. On May 10, 1994, John Wayne Gacy was executed by lethal injection in Crest Hill, Illinois.

There's just so much to unpack with this story. And there's also so many elements of it that we like great, great. raised over, but like there is this whole discussion and question of did John Wayne Gacy have an accomplice? That's the word I was looking for. Yes. An accomplice. Oh, that did come up because one person who did get away said that they felt like there was someone else in the room with them while being attacked very brutally by John Wayne Gacey for hours. Right. And then also I think John Wayne Gacy sent one of his clown paintings to another man. And it was someone who was suspected of committing other crimes. And like the note on the back was very ominous and vague.

And when reporters asked him or police asked him what the message meant, he was like, I don't know, you tell me. Like very, very vague and creepy about it. Which it does make me upset that even once he was in jail, awaiting his death sentence, that he still was kind of getting what he wanted, which was this praise and this attention because he was drawing these paintings and he was selling them to the public. And he was also hiring out other prisoners to draw clown paintings for him as him to sell. Didn't they make a law where criminals and inmates can't make money profiting off of their

crimes, like writing books and stuff like that? I don't know. I hope so, but I know John Wayne Casey that definitely wasn't the case. And even at the time it wasn't the case. He wrote one of the books about him. Yeah, because why not monetize off of it? Yeah. Am I wrong? But we went to the Zach Began's museum in Vegas. Does he own a John Wang Casey compound painting? I think yes. Yeah. That museum is dark. Disturbing. Which actually, this just made me think when that man was being attacked by John Wingasey and felt like there was a second person, I do wonder if, if the second person was truly a second person, or if there was some sort of like darkness

and dark demonic energy that was following John Wayne Gacy, because he was like, what a perfect feast to have this like deeply horrific, horrible, like energetic vampire, but also just like true monster that's killing people. If you're this evil entity, he's a great partner. Or is it like the movie split where, because his victim,

might have been unable to see properly. Is John, like, kind of split personality having these conversations and arguments? And yeah, oh, that's so unsettling. We didn't even talk about this, but there was one person that he invited over. And when they came in, he was in his clown outfit. And I feel like that's what translates a lot to the screen. It's that killer in the street that's wearing the clown costume. Right.

Even though John M. Gacy never did that. Like he, yes, maybe this one instance, John was dressed up as Pogo the Clown. He wasn't dressed up as Pogo the Clown for a lot of his other. Right. Yeah. For a lot of his other crimes. So clearly the things that John Wayne Gacy did to his victims were truly horrific.

And the way that he maintained this double life is it feels inhuman and impossible. The way he used his clown character as a cover to avoid suspicion is terrifying. and makes him the real life pennywise, not just an appearance but in action. And so let's talk about Pennywise. Okay. Let's transition. Bill Scarsguard because I'm terrified for the actual like clown figures now. I said I wasn't afraid of clowns at the beginning, but now I'm thinking of John Wayne

Gacy as a clown. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Sick. So you're like inundated with that image. Right. Yeah. And if we do like a side by side of like Tim Curry and then Bill Scarsguard,

Tim Curry's is terrifying. Okay, so Pennywise first appears in 1986 in Stephen King's published novel It, and that's six years after John Wayne Gacy was sentenced to death. So then the book was adapted into a movie in 1990 with the iconic Tim Curry playing Pennywise in a two-part TV movie. And then in 2017, they made the remake with a sequel in 2019 with Bill Scarsguard taking on the part. And also they are on HBO Max. They're making a TV series with Scars Guard reprising his role as Penny Wise in a show called Welcome to Dairy, which I am so excited for. So excited.

There's obviously some differences between all the different versions. But when it comes to Penny Wise, this character is very, very consistent. He haunts the quiet community of Derry, Maine, which on the surface seems like a wholesome, a American small town, not quite Chicago where John lived, although the town where John grew up, like the neighborhood's motto was an island in the city. Because people say it was pretty quiet as well. But if you haven't seen or read the book, here is what it is about and a little bit more about Pennywise. He mainly goes after kids. And technically he's not a clown, but he presents as a clown. he's an actual monster like a supernatural entity

that can transform and take the form of his victim's fears Pennywise being one of them and the main character of the film and Stephen King has said that he was always pretty terrified of clowns and thought they were really creepy and that was his inspiration which is a sentiment that we all share and that it wasn't directly inspired by John Wayne Gasey

but I feel like the timing and the similarities it's hard to just ignore those Right. What do you think about, have you seen the original and the new? Yeah. What do you think? I love old movies, but I always feel like the scarier ones are the newer ones just because of Hollywood's like CGI abilities and just the way, especially when the fears are taking over the screen for those kids, you actually, or I felt like I actually was experiencing those fears with them. Yes.

So while I wasn't necessarily afraid of Scars Guard, I. I was afraid of the settings that those kids were in. And with like modern technology, the way that they can do visual effects and stuff are way more haunting. George. And I will say, so Tim Curry was like a comedic actor. So his role and like appraisal and his role of Pennywise was a little bit more like jovial and fun and like ooh. Whereas you got to lure the kids in. Exactly.

Whereas Scars Guard was like immediately. scary. Right. He was a stalker. Yeah. He was so scary in his costume that one of the children was so scared of him, like in a particular scene that they hadn't rehearsed so that they could get a true reaction from the kids. That's so sad. That the child immediately started crying. And Bill had to break character and like console the kid and be like, no, no, no, it's just me. It's just me. Like this is, I, it's a mask. Poor kid. That kid probably is in therapy. Yeah. Okay, but I have a question because we've talked about the Tim Curry Pennywise and we've talked about the Bill Scarsguard Pennywise but there's another Pennywise we need to talk about it's me oh Sabrina dressed is

Pennywise when we were on tour for our other show two girls one ghost and it was terrifying I'd say yours might be the worst I there is like while I am scared of clowns and I wouldn't say I'm drawn to becoming a clown in any regard. There was a comfort in being, or just in general, there's a comfort in being in costume, especially a creepy costume. Right. Because I know I'm like, so. Yeah. And like I sat there like like like like, like, like, like, like, talking about the conjuring house. There is something appealing about being in a creepy costume. Yeah. Because you get to fall into a character. You get to hide behind the mask. Which is why we love a different person. Yeah. We love Halloween and we love wearing costumes, but we're not hiding from

the same things that these monsters are hiding from. Yeah. So I think it's fair to say John Wayne Gacy and Penny Wise have had a huge impact on how we all view clowns in pop culture. But I think people have always found clowns unsettling. It wasn't just John Wayne Gacey who put that into our minds because the Joker appeared in the first solo Batman comic back in 1940. So this villainous clown, trope has existed for some time. Right. And we also have a couple friends that collect haunted objects. And one of their most common recipients, I guess, like the things that they receive the most are porcelain clowns from people who are like, this has to be haunted. This is so creepy. Take away my porcelain clown. They have like a whole box, clowns. Yeah. But after John's crimes came to

like clowns suddenly got a hell of a lot scarier. And suddenly it wasn't just this vague, eerie feeling that you get from them, it was that you have no idea who could be lurking behind this makeup. And in the case of Pennywise and John Wangeese, it turned out to be a monster. To me, that sense of normalcy is probably the scariest part of John Wendkeesie's story, that he could just exist in his community under this mask of being this like normal family guy and the successful business owner and probably a person that a lot of parents even encouraged their kids to look at. up to in many ways because of his successes and his involvement. Yeah.

He used his social influence to take advantage of the vulnerable, these poor boys, these runaways, these young men that he felt wouldn't be missed and unfortunately weren't for a really long time, which is why he got away with so many murders. And because he seemed to be such a pillar in the community, people let things slide. Police were very slow to investigate him. We're more likely to believe him. And I think the big takeaway from all of this is sometimes the most evil people are the ones that we don't expect. That is the scariest part.

Often they're exactly the opposite. It is the men who masquerade as caretakers, confident leaders, and even clowns. So the takeaway I have from this episode is don't trust men, don't trust clowns, don't trust anyone. Don't even trust the person's heading next to you. Right. And remembering that can help. Not remembering what I said. Remembering what Corinne said.

Well, no, remember what you said. Okay, sure. They can help protect you from the real-life monsters. That's true. And it could help stop someone like John Wayne Gacy before they even start. Thank you so much for listening. We are your hosts, Sabrina DeAnne Roga and Corinne VN. Join us next Tuesday for another peek inside another Crimes of Infamy.

Here at Crime House, we want to thank each and every one of you for your support. If you like what you heard today, reach out on all social media at Crimehouse. And don't forget to rate, review, and follow crimes of wherever you get your podcasts. Your feedback truly makes a difference. And if you're watching on YouTube, subscribe and comment below what you think. And I know we said in the last episode we wanted to ask all of you what we should call you and how we should sign off and say goodbye to you. Last night, I was thinking the way that you were saying, mommy, it was so creepy that I almost

want to say, bye, mommies. To everyone. Like, you're all our mommies. That sounds creepy. I know. We don't have to. But in my mind, I'm saying, bye.

Okay, let us know what you think of that. Let us know what you think. Well, let it be a vote. We won't make you. Grina hates my idea, and this is why I don't trust her. But yes, we'll see you next week. And eventually we'll figure out what we're saying to close out our episodes, but just know, in my mind, I'm always saying,

Bye mommies. Bye mommy. See you next week. Hi, listeners, it's Vanessa. Before today's episode, I want to tell you about another show I think you'll love. Crime House and A&E are teaming up on the podcast version of the famous true crime series, The First 48. Each week, Carter Roy takes you inside a landmark homicide case, the interrogations, the dead ends, and the breakthroughs in the critical first 48 hours.

Listen to and follow the first 48 every Thursday on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you listen to podcasts.