Money Crimes with Nicole Lapin - LUST: The Swiss Gigolo

Episode Date: November 28, 2024

In the late 1990s and early 2000s, a man known as the Swiss Gigolo charmed his way across Europe, seducing some of the wealthiest women on the continent... and then robbing them blind. When he targete...d one of the world's richest women, it seemed like the Swiss Gigolo was about to get his biggest score yet. But he may have bitten off more than he could chew. Money Crimes is a Crime House Original. For more content, follow us on Instagram and TikTok @crimehouse. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Starting point is 00:00:00 This is Crime House. There is nothing more exciting than a new relationship. The passion, the romance, the adventure. And as soon as you learn more about each other, what started out as a physical attraction eventually becomes an emotional one. Then before you know it, you're in love. Or at least that's what the con artist known as the Swiss Gigolo wanted his targets to think.
Starting point is 00:00:36 In the early 2000s, the Swiss Gigolo, real name Helg Skarby, dated several wealthy European women, many of them at the same time. But they had no idea what he was really after. Their money. Before these women knew it, they had lost millions and the Swiss gigolo was nowhere to be it.
Starting point is 00:01:13 That's especially true when it comes to money. If you want to make the right decisions when it comes to managing your assets, you need to know what mistakes to avoid and how to spot a trap. This is Money Crimes, a Crime House original. I'm your host, Nicole Lapin. Every Thursday, I'll be telling you a story of a famous financial crime and giving you advice on how to avoid becoming a victim yourself. At Crime House, we want to express our gratitude to you, our community, for making all of this
Starting point is 00:01:42 possible. Please support us by rating, reviewing, and following Money Crimes wherever you get your podcasts. Your feedback truly matters. And for ad-free and early access to Money Crimes plus exciting bonus content, subscribe to Crime House Plus on Apple Podcasts. This episode is about Helg Scarby,
Starting point is 00:02:01 also known as the Swiss Jiggalo. Throughout the early 2000s, Helg infiltrated Europe's high society, preying on wealthy women and scamming them out of millions of euros. Today, I'll tell you about how a chance encounter led Helg to give up a promising career in finance and turn to a life of crime. I'll talk about how he charmed his way into stealing entire fortunes and how he eventually met his match with one of the richest women in the world. Hey everyone, it's Nicole.
Starting point is 00:02:37 I have a quick favor to ask you. If you're enjoying Money Crimes, I would be so incredibly grateful if you took a moment to rate and review us on Apple or on Spotify. Your feedback helps us improve the show and reach more people who love all things finance and crime. Thank you so much for your support. This episode is brought to you by Missouri. From November 25th to December 2nd, get 25% off everything on orders over $150 in Missouri's biggest sale ever. From bold hoops to minimalist stacks, Missouri has something for everyone.
Starting point is 00:03:09 Missouri makes handcrafted fine jewelry for every day made with responsibly sourced materials so you can look and feel good about gifting and wearing them. Shop your wishlist 25% off at majori.com today. So money is a thing but it's not everything. I think you really look at the importance of what are you doing with your time? The conversations that we've had with our financial advisor is very much building what that framework looks like that helps support those important things. The places where you're investing your time and your resources, your family clearly, and those closest to you.
Starting point is 00:03:45 Edward Jones, we do money differently. Visit edwardjones.ca slash different. When a story seems too absurd to be true, people say it's stranger than fiction. I'd say the story of the Swiss gigolo definitely fits that description. And you might think that what I'm about to tell you would be too crazy for even a paperback romance novel,
Starting point is 00:04:11 but I promise you, it is all true. Helg Scarby, born Helg Rusak, didn't seem like your typical con man. In the 1980s, when Helg was in his early 20s, he was making a name for himself in the world of finance. He studied law in Zurich, Switzerland before eventually landing in mergers and acquisitions at Credit Suisse Bank.
Starting point is 00:04:35 He spoke six languages, which was great for doing business across Europe and connecting with some of the continent's richest people. So Helg definitely wasn't hurting for money, but on a personal level, he just didn't seem to feel fulfilled. Maybe he was lonely or simply lacking purpose. But that all changed sometime in the early 1990s, when Helc was around 30 years old. It's not totally clear how or when,
Starting point is 00:05:05 but at some point around this time, he met an Italian man named Hernano Beretta. Hernano was close to 50, and honestly, a bit of a mystery. Some sources say he was either a car mechanic or a used car dealer, but if you asked him, he would tell you he was much more than that.
Starting point is 00:05:25 Supposedly, when Hernano wasn't dealing with cars, he was a sort of mystical healer or preacher. He claimed he could heal people's physical and mental ailments, and even read minds. Oh, he also said he could walk on water. It's hard to imagine how anyone could fall for that, but Hernano had managed to build up a small following mostly of young Swiss people from troubled backgrounds. And Helg was apparently one of them. It's not clear what sort of life he had before getting into finance, but it probably wasn't easy.
Starting point is 00:06:05 Something about Hernano's teachings appealed to him, and Helg became one of his disciples. In fact, Helg was so devoted, it wasn't long before he became Hernano's right-hand man. But by the mid-1990s, it seemed like their budding movement was on the verge of falling apart. One day, Helg and Hernano's other followers got a shocking message from their leader. Hernano said he'd suffered some kind of traumatic accident. During his whole ordeal, Hernano had received a message from God. He was supposed to build a religious base in his hometown, a small village about a hundred miles east of Rome.
Starting point is 00:06:51 That's all Helg and Hernano's other followers needed to hear. They dropped everything they were doing and joined Hernano in his hometown, but to fulfill his vision, they needed a lot of money. And it turned out one of Hernano's followers was a very rich woman named Irene Vonninger. Irene was elderly and deeply religious. She was convinced that Hernano was a quote, "'Emissary for Christ's love.'
Starting point is 00:07:23 So when she heard that he needed help to make his center a reality, Irene was more than happy to sign over her pension and her savings. Sadly, Irene's story isn't all that uncommon. Con artists like Hernano employ something called affinity fraud to target people who are part of a close-knit group like a church or a club or even an ethnic community. They pretend to be part of that group and when they win over your trust, they strike. Affinity fraud usually involves some kind of investment scam or Ponzi scheme. In Irene's case, the investment was Hernano's center, and the payoff was an eternal place in heaven.
Starting point is 00:08:11 And she was happy to spend whatever it took to get there. Unfortunately for Irene's family, it was too late to help her. By the end of the 1990s, Irene ran out of money. According to her grandson, they believed that Irene had given between 500 and 1 million Swiss francs to Hernano. Today, the top end of that range would be around 1.4 million US dollars. Once the funds were spent, Hernano had no use for Irene. He sent her away and she returned home to Switzerland, broke and alone. There was nothing Irene could do about it. Hernano was clever and there was no proof that he had done anything wrong.
Starting point is 00:09:07 Without Irene's money to rely on, Hernano needed a new income stream. So he turned to his right-hand man, Helg Scarby, for help. Thanks to Helg's time working in corporate finance, he knew lots of wealthy European citizens. Most importantly, he knew how they operated and the places they liked to hang out. And with a little digging, he could find out just about anything else he needed to know about them.
Starting point is 00:09:32 It's hard to tell how he chose his first target, but in 2001, 38-year-old Helg set his sights on an 80-something Swiss countess named Verena Dupasquieu Goebbels. Verena lived in a suite at the Hotel du Paris in Monte Carlo, Monaco. And despite being absurdly rich, money couldn't buy Verena happiness.
Starting point is 00:09:58 It's not clear if she was ever married or had children, but at this point in her life, Verena was lonely and craving companionship. One evening in May, Verena was eating at a restaurant in Monte Carlo with some friends when she noticed Helg Scarby sitting near them alone. She invited the young man to join them, and he acted surprised. But this was the plan all along, and so was the bouquet of roses he gifted Verena. The flowers left an impression on Verena.
Starting point is 00:10:33 Helg was charming and knew how to make her feel like the only woman in the room. The two began to spend more time together, and despite their 50-year age gap, they quickly became lovers. Helg was everything Verena was looking for. He was endearing, intelligent, and most importantly a good guy, not a bluffer as she told a friend. It's safe to say that love had completely blinded her. Verena's social calendar included lots of fancy balls and galas, and Helg was the perfect date. They were spending most of their time together, and before long, Verena developed real feelings for Helg.
Starting point is 00:11:21 She was like a schoolgirl with her first crush, calling her girlfriends and telling them all about him. In one message to a friend, she said, I'm experiencing real love for the first time. Although for Helg, their relationship was anything but real. By mid 2001, a few months into their relationship, Helge was ready to make good on his promise to his mentor, Hernano. That summer, Helge came to Verena visibly upset.
Starting point is 00:11:55 He told her something awful had happened. While on a business trip, Helge had accidentally hit a little girl with his car. But this little girl wasn't just anyone. Her dad was in the mafia. And he was demanding that Helge pay him 650,000 francs for what he'd done to his daughter. Or else. And then it got worse. Helge explained that when the man found out that he was dating a literal countess, that
Starting point is 00:12:29 fee ballooned to 2 million. That's about 2.7 million in US dollars today. Verena didn't hesitate. She was happy to help Helg and wired him the money. He promptly sent it to Hernano. It was a lot of money, but Helg wasn't going to stop there. He knew he needed to plan his next move very carefully. And what better way to show Verena he was serious about her than asking for her hand
Starting point is 00:13:04 in marriage. At some point after she sent him the two million, Hel got on one knee and proposed. Verena was thrilled and of course she said yes. But Hel wasn't stupid. Verena was in her 80s. He didn't want anyone, including Verena, to suspect that he forced her into a marriage for her money. So Helg took her to a doctor who confirmed that she was of sound mind. Once that was out of the way, Helg went to Verena and pitched an idea. That was out of the way, Helge went to Verena and pitched an idea. He should be given access to her bank accounts.
Starting point is 00:13:48 That way, he could make sure her money was in good hands in case anything happened to her. Verena's friends saw the writing on the wall. They told her this was a huge red flag, but Verena was totally smitten with Helg. She was convinced that he would never do anything to put her or her money in danger. So she signed the papers giving Helg access to a whopping 25 million Swiss francs. That's nearly 34 million US dollars today. Now that he had what he wanted, Hel completely vanished from Verena's life.
Starting point is 00:14:31 The betrayal devastated her. His disappearing act finally forced Verena to ask herself, who was her fiancé really? To find out, Verena went to the police. About a month later, Helg was found and arrested for grand theft. During the trial, Verena had a change of heart. She probably still had feelings for Helg, and most of all, she felt sorry for him. She dropped the charges on one condition. He had to return the money he'd stolen. Helge agreed, but there was just one problem. He had already spent about four million.
Starting point is 00:15:14 Apparently that was fine with Verena and she didn't pursue any additional lawsuits. She and Helge went their separate ways and he returned to Hernano Beretta's side. According to one member of Hernano's sect, the money went straight to Hernano, supposedly to further his spiritual mission. At the same time, Hernano was suddenly buying fancy cars and building himself a lavish villa. All of a sudden, he was rubbing elbows with high-profile politicians and even high-ranking
Starting point is 00:15:49 members of the Catholic Church. Hernano convinced his followers that as he became more visible, he needed the lifestyle to match. Otherwise no one would take him seriously. It seems like Helg took him at his word because a few years later in December of 2005, he found another wealthy woman to seduce and extort. That's when 42-year-old Helg began an affair
Starting point is 00:16:18 with a 64-year-old married woman named Marie Louise Hindle. The affair lasted about two years. During that time, Helge managed to steal 2 million euros from her. And once again, he got away scot-free. It was easy money for Helge. He had already stolen from multiple millionaires, but now he wanted more. He was ready to go after a billionaire. This episode is brought to you by Missouri.
Starting point is 00:16:56 From November 25th to December 2nd, get 25% off everything on orders over $150 in Missouri's biggest sale ever. From bold hoops to minimalist stacks, Missouri has something for everyone. Missouri makes handcrafted fine jewelry for every day made with responsibly sourced materials so you can look and feel good about gifting and wearing them. Shop your wishlist 25% off at majori.com today. Hey there, it's Nicole. If you have been enjoying the crazy stories on money crimes, then I think you're going
Starting point is 00:17:28 to love the Crime House original, Mind of a Serial Killer. What sets Mind of a Serial Killer apart is its focus on the twisted psychology of the world's most notorious serial killers. We're talking names like Jeffrey Dahmer, Ted Bundy, the Night Stalker. Featuring expert psychological analysis from licensed clinical and forensic psychologist Dr. Tristan Engels, Mind of a Serial Killer will definitely take you into these stories like never before. So get ready to uncover what drives someone to commit the unimaginable.
Starting point is 00:17:58 Mind of a Serial Killer is a Crime House original. New episodes drop every single Monday. Just search Mind of a Serial killer and follow wherever you get your favorite podcasts. For those who embrace the impossible, the Defender 110 is up for the adventure. This iconic award-winning vehicle has been redefined with a distinctive modern design. A reimagined exterior features compelling proportions and
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Starting point is 00:19:00 yet. 44-year-old Suzanne Clatton, the richest woman in Germany and the heiress to the car manufacturer, BMW. Although Suzanne's family was estimated to be worth over $30 billion, she kept a pretty low profile. Suzanne didn't wear fancy jewelry or designer clothes. She couldn't stand being judged for her inherited
Starting point is 00:19:26 wealth and preferred to focus on the family business. Suzanne was a strong voice in board meetings and pushed for BMW to embrace technological innovations. Not only that, she was also a married mother of three. Between raising a family and sitting on the board of one of the largest companies in the world, Suzanne had a lot on her plate. In the summer of 2007,
Starting point is 00:19:55 she decided to take a much needed vacation. She booked herself a solo two-week trip at the Lanzerhof Spa outside of Innsbruck, Austria. It's not entirely clear how Helg knew Suzanne was going to be at Lanzerhof, but he knew she was checking into the spa on July 9, 2007. Helg got there three days later, but he didn't approach Suzanne right away. Over the next week or so, he waited for the perfect moment to pounce. A few days before she was set to check out, he decided it was time. He noticed Suzanne was reading a book in the lobby, The Alchemist by Paolo Coelho. Helge had researched everything about Suzanne,
Starting point is 00:20:46 and he knew The Alchemist was her favorite book. So he approached her and told her that that was his favorite book too. Suzanne was intrigued. They got to talking, and at the end of their conversation, Helge invited her to go for a walk the next day. She said yes. But Helge couldn't rely on his charm alone to woo Suzanne. He had to match her on an intellectual level. As they strolled through
Starting point is 00:21:14 the grounds of the spa, Helge told Suzanne that he was involved in mergers and acquisitions specializing in new energy technology. Suzanne was immediately interested. Over the next few days, they continued to talk shop about business and finance. Before Suzanne left the spa, they exchanged numbers. In the few weeks that followed, Helg and Suzanne texted regularly. At first, it was just casual, friendly chat.
Starting point is 00:21:47 But over time, their texts turned flirty. And then they met in person again at her vacation home in the French Riviera. The exact timing for that meetup isn't clear, but we know it was sometime before August of 2007, which is when they met at a holiday inn in Munich. By then, Helg and Suzanne's friendship had turned into a full-blown extramarital affair.
Starting point is 00:22:15 It seemed like she was really into Helg, like falling in love with him. Helg could sense her feelings were getting stronger, which meant it was time to make his move. On August 26th, Helg came to Suzanne with a dilemma. He told her that while he was on a business trip in Miami, he hit a little girl with his car. The girl's dad was in the mafia, and Helg needed to cough up 7 million euros or he was going to be in serious trouble.
Starting point is 00:22:50 Sound familiar? This time it didn't immediately work. Suzanne felt bad for Helg, but she wasn't sure about sending him that much money. But then after a few days of feeling guilty, she caved. What if the mob did come after Helg and she could have stopped them? She sent Helg 7 million and he said he successfully paid off the mafia. In reality, the money went toward Hernano Bereta's increasingly luxurious lifestyle. And it still wasn't enough.
Starting point is 00:23:30 Helge knew that 7 million was just a drop in the bucket for Suzanne. Remember, she was worth 30 billion. Helge wanted to use that to his advantage. Toward the end of September, Helge approached Suzanne. It had only been a few months since they started their affair, but he told her he wanted her to leave her family and be with him.
Starting point is 00:23:55 Not only that, he asked her to create an investment fund worth 290 million euros. Naturally, he would be the one overseeing it. Without saying it directly, Helg was essentially asking to be Suzanne's financial advisor. If you're looking to hire a financial advisor, don't hire Helg Scarby. Make sure your advisor knows what they're doing. That means they've completed a rigorous certification process. In the US, that also means that their licenses
Starting point is 00:24:31 have been issued by the Financial Industry Regulatory Authority, or FINRA. When looking for an advisor, ask to see their credentials. If they don't have any, they're not for you. In Europe, those qualifications are handled by the European Financial Planning Organization. And there's a chance Helg was certified. Remember before he joined Aernado, he worked in finance.
Starting point is 00:25:01 But even if Helg was allowed to handle Suzanne's money, she wasn't about to let him get his hands on it. She may have fallen for the story about him hitting a little girl with his car, but letting a man she basically just met control 290 million euros of her own money? That wasn't going to happen. Alarm bells were going off in Suzanne's mind. By this point, she was ready to wash her hands of the whole situation. A few days after hearing Helg's pitch, Suzanne called him and ended things.
Starting point is 00:25:38 But Helg wasn't going to give up that easily. Not when there were billions of euros for the taking. And he was willing to play dirty to get it. On October 16, 2007, Suzanne was back at the Lanzerhof Spa in Austria. At some point during her stay, she received an envelope from Helg. It contained some extremely compromising photographs of her and Helg from their visit to the Holiday Inn. Suzanne was mortified. She didn't even have time to process what was happening
Starting point is 00:26:17 before she got another package. This time, Helg sent her a DVD of them having sex. The video included a message. If Suzanne didn't pay him 49 million euros, he was going to send everything to her husband and the press. He told Suzanne, quote, While your risk is very high, my risks are irrelevant. Helg had no boundaries and absolutely no moral compass.
Starting point is 00:26:49 He would do whatever it took to complete his mission for Hernano. But he wasn't just dealing with anyone. He was dealing with Suzanne Clatton. And if Helg was going to play dirty, so would she. As the world's population grows, so does the need for resources like potash to support sustainable food production. This is why BHP is building one of the world's most sustainable potash mines in Canada. Essential resources responsibly produced. This is what BHP has committed in Canada. Essential resources responsibly produced. This is what BHP has committed to Canada.
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Starting point is 00:28:27 In October of 2007, he tried to extort her with a form of revenge porn. Unfortunately, revenge porn has the act of posting sexually explicit images of someone online without their consent. Sextortion or sexual extortion is a form of revenge porn when someone threatens to publicly share intimate images or videos unless their victims meet their demands, usually money. If you're unlucky enough to find yourself in this situation, stand firm. Don't engage with your blackmailer.
Starting point is 00:29:13 Go to the police immediately. They can help you track this person down and stop them before anything becomes public. But it seems like Suzanne wanted to deal with her situation privately. She was a highly visible public figure with a prominent family and a board seat at a multi-billion dollar company.
Starting point is 00:29:36 The stakes were as high as they could be and she needed to find a way to make this situation go away fast. Throughout the rest of 2007, Suzanne agonized over what to do. She was a reserved woman who didn't let just anyone into her life. And yet she let a con man manipulate her into falling in love with him.
Starting point is 00:30:00 It was beyond embarrassing. Even worse, she'd put her family in harm's way. If she didn't pay Helg and he went public with the images, her family and her reputation would be ruined. After carefully weighing her options, Suzanne told Helg that she would pay for his silence. On January 14 14, 2008, Suzanne agreed to meet Helg at a highway rest stop in Austria. Helg got there first, but he wasn't alone.
Starting point is 00:30:33 In another car across the parking lot, Helg's spiritual leader, Hernano Beretta, was waiting. Normally, Hernano stayed out of Helg's business, but this deal was huge. He probably wanted to be there to make sure it all went smoothly. They waited and waited, but Susanne never showed up. But eventually, a special Austrian police unit did. They surrounded Helg's car and arrested him and Hernano. Remember, Susanne was the ultimate boss lady. She wasn't gonna let a guy like Helg put her in the corner.
Starting point is 00:31:14 There was no chance he was getting that money. After Helg blackmailed her, she went right to the Austrian police and agreed to be part of a sting operation against him. As Suzanne said in a later interview, once she knew she was the one being extorted, quote, that was the moment of clarity. You are now a victim and you must defend yourself. And defend herself she did.
Starting point is 00:31:43 Following the sting operation, the Austrian police took Helg and Hernano into custody. But for some reason, they let Hernano go and he returned to Italy. They probably didn't have enough evidence against him. It seems like Hernano generally stood back and let Helg do the dirty work for him. But Helg wasn't gonna get off so easy. It didn't take long for investigators to uncover his con.
Starting point is 00:32:10 They combed through his laptop and found he'd scoured the internet for information on Suzanne. And when they went through his diary, police found out Suzanne wasn't his only victim. In fact, Helg was in the midst of seducing and stealing money from three other women when he blackmailed Suzanne. His diary entries show that throughout July and August of 2007, Helge bounced from woman
Starting point is 00:32:36 to woman, known only in the diaries as Mrs. S, Mrs. R, and Mrs. H. Investigators were able to discover that Helg had fleeced these women for roughly 2.4 million euros combined. Apparently, he managed to balance these relationships by telling the other three women that he was a secret agent working for the Swiss government. He said he was constantly in and out of town because he was working in so-called crisis zones.
Starting point is 00:33:08 But eventually that balancing act came crashing down and it was time for Helg to face the consequences. In March of 2009, Helg went on trial. He pleaded guilty and apologized to Suzanne and the other women. But he still wasn't willing to rat out his co-conspirator and religious guru, Hernano Bereta. Because Helg refused to cooperate, he was sentenced to six years in prison. Assuming Helg served his full sentence, he would have been released in 2015. But there hasn't been a lot of news about Helg Scarby since his trial. Whether he changed his name or turned his life around
Starting point is 00:33:51 or went back to running cons, we'll probably never know. Hernano Bereta's fate is a bit murky too. During the investigation, police became convinced that he was Helg's accomplice. After all, there had to be someone else who was taking the photos and videos of Helge and Suzanne. In the months following Helge's arrest, Italian police kept tabs on Hernano's villa. When they felt the timing was right, they raided his home and found approximately 1.7 million
Starting point is 00:34:22 euros hidden in the walls. Once the police gathered more evidence, Hernano was arrested and accused of running a crime ring. In June of 2012, he was sentenced to seven years in prison. But perhaps the even bigger punishment was the fact that he faced the possibility of having to forfeit his mansion to Suzanne Clatton. It was a fitting twist of fate. Hernano risked losing the house he'd built on Helg Scarby's lies.
Starting point is 00:34:55 Like Helg, it's not really clear what happened to Hernano after. But in the end, their charade was exposed, and justice was served. So what can we take away from this story? For me, this story is about trust. The women held conned all trusted him, and in turn, he trusted Hernano. But none of that trust was earned. It may seem cynical, but in finance and in life, you should never put blind trust into anyone. That doesn't mean you should always keep your guard up.
Starting point is 00:35:35 We can't go through life without a support system. But when you put that faith into the wrong person, it can have devastating consequences. Thank you so much for listening. I'm your host Nicole Lapin. Come back next time as I take you through another wild story and offer you some advice along the way. Money Crimes is a Crime House original. Join me every Thursday for a new episode.
Starting point is 00:36:07 Here at Crime House, we wanna thank each and every one of you for your support. If you like what you heard today, reach out on social media, at Crime House on TikTok and on Instagram. And don't forget to rate, review, and follow Money Crimes wherever you get your favorite podcasts. Your feedback truly makes all the difference. And for an ad-free
Starting point is 00:36:25 experience or early access to Money Crimes plus exciting bonus content, subscribe to CrimeHouse Plus on Apple Podcasts. Money Crimes is hosted by me, Nicole Lapin, and is a CrimeHouse original powered by PAVE Studios. It is executive produced by Max Cutler. This episode of Money Crimes was produced and directed by Ron Shapiro, written by Joe Guerra, edited by Natalie Persovsky, fact-checked by Sarah Tardiff, sound designed by Kerry Murphy, and included production assistance from Sarah Carroll. Hey there, it's Nicole.
Starting point is 00:37:03 If you've been enjoying all these crazy stories on money crimes, then I know you'll love the Crime House original, Mind of a Serial Killer. Mind of a Serial Killer is all about exploring the terrifying psychology of history's most twisted criminals, featuring expert analysis from a licensed clinical and forensic psychologist. Mind of a Serial Killer is a Crime House original. New episodes drop every single Monday. All you have to do is search Mind of a Serial Killer is a Crime House original. New episodes drop every single Monday. All you have to do is search Mind of a Serial Killer and follow wherever you listen to podcasts.

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