Money Crimes with Nicole Lapin - Mark Winger: When the American Dream Turned Deadly Pt. 1

Episode Date: September 18, 2026

In 1995, Mark Winger appeared to have it all: a stable career, an adoring wife named Donnah, and a newly adopted daughter in Springfield, Illinois. But beneath the surface, Mark was carrying on a secret affair and harboring a chilling plan to rid himself of his marriage without losing everything he'd built. When an unsettling encounter with a shuttle driver gave Mark the opening he needed, he set a deadly trap.Follow Serial Killers & Murderous Minds for part 2 of this episode: https://pod.link/1769285458If you’re new here, don’t forget to follow Scams, Money, & Murder to never miss a case! To hear episodes ad-free, subscribe to Crime House+. Join at crimehouseplus.com or if you’re listening on Apple Podcasts, tap “Try Free” at the top of this show’s page. Scams, Money, & Murder is a Crime House Original Podcast, powered by PAVE Studios.🎧 Need More to Binge? Listen to other Crime House Originals Clues, Crimes Of Reddit, Crime House 24/7, Serial Killers & Murderous Minds, Murder True Crime Stories, and more wherever you get your podcasts!Follow me on SocialInstagram: @CrimehouseTikTok: @CrimehouseFacebook: @crimehousestudiosX: @crimehousemediaYouTube: @crimehousestudios

Hi everyone, it's Vanessa Richardson. Before today's episode, I want to tell you about another crime house show, Murder True Crime Stories. Join Carter Roy every Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday as he explores history's most notorious murders like you've never heard before. Follow Murder True Crime Stories, available wherever you listen to podcasts. This is Crime House. For a lot of people, the American dream is pretty simple. You build a career, fall in love, start a family, and enjoy a comfortable life with the people you love. From the outside, Mark Winger seemed to have done exactly that.

In the 1990s, he had a good career, a loving wife, a healthy young daughter, and a nice home in Springfield, Illinois. It was the kind of life some people spend years trying to build. But it wasn't enough for Mark, and when he realized he couldn't get everything he wanted, he decided. to do something drastic and deadly. The human mind is powerful. It shapes how we think, feel, love, and hate. But sometimes it drives people to commit the unthinkable. This is serial killers and murderous minds, a crime house original.

I'm Vanessa Richardson. And I'm forensic psychologist, Dr. Tristan Engels. Every Monday and Thursday, we uncover the darkest minds in history, analyzing what makes a killer. Crime House exists because of listeners like you. Want even more? Join Crimehouse Plus and get both parts of every story dropped on the same Monday, completely ad-free, no waiting three days for part two, plus crime house bonus episodes every month. To join, go to Crimehouseplus.com, or if you listen on Apple Podcasts, tap try-free at the top of the serial killers and murderous minds page. Before we get started, be advised that this episode contains discussion of sex, murder, and mutilation. so please listen with care. Today we begin our deep dive on Mark Winger,

the All-American Family Man with a violent obsession with his future. Mark's dreams seemed wholesome on the outside, but they caused him to descend into darkness and stage a gruesome murder that took years to untangle. As Vanessa goes through the story, I'll be talking about things like how some offenders are motivated by a maladaptive relationship to failure, while some people turn to violence when life plans don't go their way,

and how some killers convince themselves that murder is the only solution to their problems. And as always, we'll be asking the question, what makes a killer? Mark Winger grew up living the American dream. He was born on November 26, 1962, in the small town of Aliria, Ohio, to Gerald and Sally Winger. Mark had two older siblings, and his parents always made sure. the family of five was tight-knit. One of the main ways they did this was through religion. The Wingers were Jewish, which was a big part of their family life and values,

and so was the idea of hard work and discipline. Gerald was a successful chemical engineer. His work ethic provided the family with a comfortable life and set an example for Mark and his siblings on how to make something of themselves one day. From an early age, Mark followed in his father's footsteps. He wanted nothing more than to provide for his own. own large family one day. So he studied hard, excelled in school, and showed a passion for science,

just like his dad. But when Mark graduated high school in 1981, he wanted to show that he was more than just a science whiz. He wanted to be seen as the best of the best, so he enrolled at the Virginia Military Institute, or VMI, to study physics. Educationally, VMI operated as a standard four-year college, but outside the classroom, students lived under the rigid code of a military academy. Mark's parents were extremely proud of him. He was pushing his skills to their highest potential. At the same time, when they dropped him off on campus at the start of his freshman year, Gerald reminded Mark not to step one foot out of line. I wonder if Mark's interest in being like his dad was reinforced by his dad.

There's a difference between idolizing a parent and being inspired by them, and then feeling pressured to follow in their footsteps. We know Gerald was a hard worker with a strong work ethic, but if Mark learned that his performance was connected to his worth or value, not just in society but within his family, that can put a lot of pressure on a child, especially if he's expected to study the same subjects and if, for example, those subjects don't come as easily to Mark as they did to his father.

If he struggled, he might experience that as evidence that he's failing to become the person he's supposed to be or failing to prove his worth. And that can create fear of disappointing his father. And parental approval carries a lot of emotional significance for children, especially if achievement becomes one of the primary ways that they feel valued or gain approval. Because then they can start focusing on avoiding failure rather than exploring their own interests in developing their own identity. And sadly, that can contribute to perfectionism, anxiety, shame, or sensitivity to criticism. Sometimes you see the opposite response to, though.

Some children reject all those expectations from their parents altogether because failing on their own terms can feel safer than continually trying to meet a standard that they don't believe that they can ever reach. Fortunately for Mark, he thrived under structure, routine, and clear expectations. He earned good grades and handled the demands of military life well. By the end of his four years at VMI, Mark was really, ready to carry that discipline into the armed forces. After graduating in 1985 with a bachelor's degree in physics, he was commissioned as a second lieutenant in the army. He served two years on active duty,

one in South Korea and one back in the U.S. in Georgia. But the military was never Mark's end goal. It was just another step toward that stable, successful life he'd always envisioned for himself. By the time his contract ended, Mark was ready to return to civilian life. He found work with a company in Riviera Beach, Florida that manufactured lab equipment. As soon as Mark arrived in Florida, he wanted to get out there and meet new people. He was ready to find a woman to settle down with. Fortunately, his older brother Greg lived nearby and thought he knew someone who was perfect for Mark. Her name was Donna Brown. She worked as an operating room technician. She was outgoing, energetic, and beautiful. Plus, just like Mark, Donna was Jewish. Greg set up a blind date,

And once they met for the first time, Mark and Donna quickly realized how much they had in common. The conversation flowed easily, and they were on the same page about finding a serious relationship, settling down, and having lots of children. The two started dating after that night. They met each other's families, and Donna's sisters immediately took to Mark. He was funny, attractive, successful, exactly the kind of man they had hoped Donna would find. They were a match made in heaven. And after just six months of dating, Mark proposed and Donna said yes.

I want to start by saying there's absolutely nothing wrong with knowing what you want. Some people want marriage and children. They know their values. And when they meet someone who wants those same things, the relationship can progress quickly. That alone isn't something I would consider alarming. So it's not necessarily the speed of this relationship that I find concerning. There are people who have met and married within days and are still together decades. later. But here's what did catch my attention. Based on what you described, we know Mark was ready for

a marriage and family. We know he wanted a big family one day like his father had. As you said, he wanted nothing more than to provide for his own large family one day. What I want to know is whether this is something Mark genuinely wants for himself or something he believes he needs to have. He arrives in Florida, and one of his first goals is finding a partner. How much opportunity has he had to explore who he is and what he actually wants before meeting Donna or how much opportunity has he had to date and explore who he is in a relationship with other women and what he wants in a partner before settling down with her. And then I think there's an even more important question. Is he choosing Donna because of who Donna is? Or is he choosing her because she fits the life he believes he's supposed to have

right now? And I think given everything we've just discussed about his relationship with his father and his relationship with achievement, I think it's worth keeping in the back of our minds, whether Mark is building an identity for himself or he's trying to fulfill a preconstructed identity. If someone views marriage as the next step in their larger plan, how might they react when the reality of that marriage starts to look different than they expected? That all depends on what their views actually are. So are they realistic or idealistic about it? And I think most people who decide to marry enter into marriage with expectations

and they realize that some of those expectations aren't going to be met or were maybe not realistic. But part of being in a marriage or partnership is working through that and understanding circumstances change and learning how to compromise. But going back to what we've been discussing about Mark, let's say, for example, he's looking at it as the next step in his larger plan. He's viewing marriage and family as a milestone of success. And that's an indication for him that his life is progressing how it should based on how he views achievement. If that's his mindset, when there are conflicts within the marriage, that can be viewed as a threat to the relationship itself or worse, the perception of success. How he reacts to that will depend on how

he has historically reacted to any threat to his success, and I don't think we've seen that yet. But generally, some people adapt, some communicate with their partners, but others can become more frustrated and controlling or even resentful. Mark seemed to be able to offer Donna everything she wanted in life. They got married on March 4, 1989. Life for the newlyweds moved quickly from there. Just two months later, Mark was offered a job as a nuclear engineer in Springfield, Illinois. It was a huge step forward in his career.

Donna didn't love the idea of leaving her family behind in Florida, but she was eager to build a life with her new husband. And after the move, she quickly found work as an operating room technician in a local hospital. Together, they settled into life in the Midwest. They had new jobs, a new home, and what appeared to be a promising future ahead of them. But there was still something missing. Mark and Donna desperately wanted children, so not long after settling in, they began trying to start a family.

But month after month, Donna didn't get pregnant. Then one year passed, followed by another. And still, the child they hoped for never came. Eventually, Mark and Donna decided to seek medical intervention. After countless appointments and tests, the couple received devastating news. Due to fertility complications, Donna could never get pregnant. Now we get to see a pivotal moment in Mark's life where an important life goal suddenly became something he couldn't necessarily control. So far, we've watched him get the grades he wanted, get into the college he wanted, get the job he wanted, and marry the woman he wanted.

and when he wanted to do it. This is one of the first major barriers to his life plan that you've outlined. And infertility can be incredibly painful and difficult for both partners because there can be grief and anger, helplessness, guilt, and it can affect the relationship itself. And I think helplessness is important here because that would likely be a very uncomfortable feeling for Mark. Because if he is someone who manages life by setting goals,

working hard, and solving problems through achievement, then infertility isn't something he can necessarily work harder to resolve. And unfortunately, it's not something that anyone can achieve their way out of. And if he is someone who is very control-oriented, that can be extremely hard on him and frustrating. If Mark viewed having a large family as part of his identity or his measure of success even, do you think he could have unfairly begun associating Donna with the loss of that dream? Potentially, yes. with an emphasis on unfairly, because obviously Donna did not choose this, and she is just as devastated

as Mark is. Like I said, this is painful for both partners. I do think it's reasonable, though, to consider the possibility of externalization of blame or resentment here. Given what we've outlined about Mark's views on achievement and his definition of success, there is the potential that he could begin viewing Donna as the obstacle to achieving this particular goal, again, completely unfairly. he could personalize his frustration and begin to feel that Donna is the reason they can't have the life he wanted. And it makes me wonder, though, what Mark's views on divorce are, too. Does he view ending marriage as another form of failure? Because if resentment does develop because of this and the marriage eventually becomes unhappy or unsustainable, what options does Mark believe he has? Can he change

the goal? Can he leave the marriage? Or would either of those things threaten the identity he's built around achievement and success. He might have very rigid beliefs about how his life should look. For two people who'd imagined parenthood as part of their dream life, it was a painful loss, and one that forced them to reconsider what creating a family might look like. At first, the couple seemed united by the same goal, finding another way to become parents. But what Donna didn't realize was that Mark was willing to go to extreme lengths to make his dreams. come true.

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normal phenomena and events that science still can't fully explain. I'll give you historical context. I'll break down the science. I'll even interrogate the supernatural. I treat these moments like open case files, not miss, not superstition, just incomplete explanations waiting for a closer look. And I'll ask the question, what if this happened today? Listen to and follow hidden history Available now wherever you get your podcasts. By the early 1990s, Mark Winger and his wife Donna had settled into their new life in Springfield, Illinois. They had established careers, a comfortable home,

and a growing circle of friends. By all appearances, they seemed to be living the stable, upper-middle-class life they'd worked hard for. But Mark and Donna were missing one part of their dream, children, because Donna got the news that due to fertility complications, she'd likely never become pregnant. Donna's diagnosis shattered the future Mark had imagined for himself. He was a calculated person who liked structure, routine, and knowing what came next.

So the news was tough for him to handle. But Mark kept his feelings to himself. From the outside looking in, there weren't any signs that Donna's diagnosis had put any strain on their marriage. Instead, they started looking into adoption agencies. Mark was supportive, while Donna tried to keep a forward-moving. mindset. In addition to Mark, she leaned on her mother, sisters, and a nurse she'd met at the hospital and grown especially close to named Deanne Schultz. Donna and Deanne had been good friends

for years, but during this time they became even closer. Donna confided in Deanne about her fertility struggles and her hope of finding another way to become a mother. At the same time, Deanne's own marriage was beginning to crumble. She told Donna that she and her husband were likely heading for divorce. Deanne and her husband joined the Wingers for a lot of dinners and nights out, so Donna was shocked to hear the news. It's impossible to know exactly how much Donna told Mark about Deanne's marital issues, but she likely mentioned some of it in passing. However, around this same time, Donna and Mark had other big news on their minds. In the spring of 1995, the couple received the call they'd been waiting for. A doctor at Donna's hospital knew of a pregnant teenager who was looking

for a family to adopt her baby. Donna was thrilled, and Mark seemed to be too, and after a few meetings with the birth mother on June 1st, 1995, they brought the newborn baby home. So Mark and Donna have been dealing with infertility, disappointment, and potentially strain within their marriage, and then suddenly they have a baby, and of course there's going to be excitement and hope. There's something positive to focus on, and with that, some relief to the pressure that they may have been under. But that's likely only temporary, because whatever happiness they're basking in right now,

it's not enough to resolve the core issues that they have. Like, for example, Mark wanted a large family. It took them this long to adopt one child, and they would be lucky if they were able to do that again. If there was resentment happening or externalization of blame or frustration or any of the things that we just discussed, their new baby doesn't make those. disappear. It's a cognitive trap where people sometimes believe that a major positive event like

having a baby, getting married, changing jobs or homes, moving in together will fix a problem because everyone feels better and hopeful temporarily. But in reality, those same core issues resurface once the excitement wears off. After six years of hoping for a child, Mark and Donna seemed overcome with domestic bliss. Donna quickly bonded with their new baby, who they named Bailey. Friends and family described her as happier than she'd ever been. Mark appeared happy too. In those first few weeks as a new dad, he seemed every bit the doting father. He filmed home videos of Donna and Bailey together, as well as all their family and friends who came to celebrate their new arrival. It looked like Mark and Donna had finally achieved the life they'd spent years

building. They had the baby they'd been hoping for and the village to help them settle into their new roles. Their families helped where they could, and so did Donna's close friend, Deanne Schultz. Deanne was a mother herself, so during those first few weeks with Bailey, she was especially helpful. She guided Donna through all the exhaustion and uncertainty of caring for a newborn. Deanne was there through all of it, which meant she was also spending a lot more time with Mark. And pretty soon, Dianne caused Mark to start reimagining his future. He was feeling increasingly dissatisfied in his own marriage. He loved his new daughter, but he'd always imagined having a large family.

After waiting years to adopt one child, he realized that building a family with Donna could take much longer than he'd originally planned if it happened at all. And as Mark watched Dianne helped Donna adjust to motherhood, he seemed to start viewing things differently. Suddenly, Diann wasn't just his wife's friend and support system. She was an opportunity, because Mark had learned by now that Dianne wanted out of her own marriage, too. So in July of 1995, just one month after Bailey's adoption, Mark took his chance. He traveled to Chattanooga, Tennessee, for work, and on July 18th, once he was at his hotel, he called Diann. The two were friendly, but they'd never had a private phone conversation before.

Mark wasted no time explaining why he was calling. He admitted to Deanne that he was unhappy in his marriage and that he knew she was unhappy in hers too. Then Mark suggested something unexpected. He asked Deanne to meet him in private, not in Springfield, but at a motel a couple hours south of the city while he was still on the road. The fact that he's making a point of acknowledging

that he knew Deanne's marriage was struggling, makes it seem like they're similar. That can create intimacy because we tend to feel more understood when we believe another person shares our feelings or our experiences, especially experiences that feel vulnerable to disclose. But it also gives them a reason they're both comfortable with to become more emotionally intimate with one another. Because now they're commiserating about their marriages and how unhappy they are. And that can make it easier to shift boundaries. They're sharing increasingly personal information, potentially feeling understood by each other in ways they may no longer feel understood by their respective spouses, and an emotional connection is being built.

And it's being built its secret. Given that you described Mark as already seeing Deanne as an opportunity, this starts to feel much more calculated. By leading with something he knew Deanne would relate to, was Mark being manipulative and making it easier for her to trust him and kind of feel understood? Yes, potentially. If he learned about vulnerabilities in her marriage through her friendship with his wife and then use that information to shape this interaction to his advantage, that would be manipulative, especially if Deanne believes that this is mutually supportive. But if Mark is actually using these conversations to move their relationship in a more romantic direction that she doesn't even realize he's pursuing, then yes. And at that point, he knows more about the purpose of these interactions. than she does, and he's using that information to his advantage to influence what's going to happen next. That's very manipulative. Well, it seems like Dianne had been having similar fantasies because she agreed to the secret meeting, and Mark made sure it would take place far enough from Springfield that they were unlikely to run into anyone they knew.

On July 22, 1995, the two met at the Comfort Inn in Mount Vernon, roughly 130 miles from their homes. Shortly after they entered the room, the encounter turned sexual. Over the next few days, Mark drew Deanne in deeper. He told her that he wasn't just unhappy in his marriage. He considered it over. He said he didn't love Donna anymore and started speaking as if a future with Deanne was already taking shape. The affair intensified quickly.

Once Mark was back in Springfield, the two started meeting on lunch breaks, parked in the lot of a local family amusement center called Jungle of Fun. Mark and Deanne took whatever time they could to see each other without raising suspicion. As the affair with Deanne continued, Mark decided he wanted out of his marriage officially, but divorce came with consequences he wasn't willing to accept. Mark feared Donna would take Bailey and move to Florida to be closer to her family, which would mean he'd be left without the daughter he'd waited years to have. Plus, divorce would also be expensive, expose his affair, and damage the respectable image he'd worked hard to build.

As Mark struggled to find a solution to his problem, a dark thought suddenly occurred to him. The only way for him to end his marriage, keep Bailey, and maintain his reputation, was if Donna were dead. And Mark was willing to make that happen. I think a lot of people have a hard time wrapping their heads around situations like this. Because when we think of violence, a lot of times people picture violence stemming from anger, impulsivity, or at least someone who has a pattern of aggression. And in intimate relationships, especially, prior interpersonal violence is an important risk factor for future violence. But the reality is violence can also be instrumental, meaning it can be planned and used to achieve a specific outcome.

So someone can have no known history of violence and then seemingly go from zero to 60 like this because they suddenly consider violence as a solution to an existing problem, which is relevant to Mark right now. Divorce is the conventional and pro-social way out of this marriage, but to Mark there are consequences to divorce that he just can't tolerate. And I mentioned this earlier. I was curious, how would he view divorce? Would he experience it as a failure? Is the idea of Donna taking Bailey away failure to him? because objectively, murdering his wife carries consequences infinitely more grave than divorce, and that would be the permanent loss of his daughter.

So it's not really his daughter he's concerned about here. And some of the consequences he's apparently trying to avoid aren't even guaranteed. Because it's entirely possible Donna wouldn't even take Bailey from him if they divorced. And that's the mind at work. It can tell us fictional stories that we tend to believe, and then it can influence our behavior. And I think that highlights how rigid and narrowed his thinking has become. He's approaching this as a problem to solve and focusing on the outcome he wants instead of the harm it could cause. The more narrowly focused he becomes on his goal, the easier it may become to psychologically distance himself from what this actually means.

Because he's got other options. He just hasn't even considered them. Mark's sudden change was chilling. And even more frightening was how methodical he was moving forward. He knew that killing Donna and getting away with it wouldn't be easy. So Mark turned to Deanne to help him. The police closed my sister's case in 2019. Last month, her killer commented on my post.

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And the other goes in completely blind. No prep, no spoilers, reacting in real time, same as you. And then we swap. And we pull every thread until the whole twisted picture comes into view. It's dark, it's messy, and the scariest part is that these are real stories, posted by real people. New episodes drop every Tuesday. Listen to and follow Crimes of Reddit, available now wherever you get your podcasts. By the summer of 1995, 32-year-old Mark Winger should have been enjoying one of the happiest periods of his life.

But instead, he was spiraling into darkness. Mark had a three-month-old daughter at home with his wife, Donna, and an ongoing affair, with one of her closest friends, Deanne. Mark and Deanne had even started talking about leaving their spouses to be together. But while Deanne was preparing to divorce her husband, Mark was considering a more extreme solution. He wanted Donna out of the picture for good, and to make that happen, he planned to kill her. Mark seemed to believe Deanne would see things his way, because in August of that year, he told her his idea. He said it would be easier for them to be together if Donna were dead. Mark went on to share his ideas for staging Donna's murder so he wouldn't get caught,

and he suggested Deanne be the one to find Donna's body. This is exactly what I mean when I say he's become psychologically distanced from the seriousness of what he's contemplating, because look how quickly this escalated. We've gone from an affair to discussing leaving their spouses to Mark saying Donna needs to die. And I'm shocked at how comfortable he seems discussing something that extreme so openly with Deanne. Because of that and because he seems to already have thought out a plan of action, it does make me wonder whether this idea is actually even new to him or if he's been thinking about it for a while. He doesn't seem to be distressed from the thought or struggling

with whether he could actually even go through with it. He's already discussing it. And then he's willing to involve Deanne, which is very risky because he had no idea how she would react. She could be horrified. She could tell Donna. She could go. to the police, he must have a lot of confidence in her loyalty to him. And I wonder whether some of that confidence comes from how successfully he's moved through this relationship with her. He may think he has influence over her or believes that she's invested in this relationship enough that she would be an accessory to murder for it. Or he just assumes that other people think like he does, that when they have a goal, they will do whatever it takes to achieve it regardless of the consequences

or regardless of the cost or regardless of the risk. When Mark suggested that Deanne could discover Donna's body, do you think he was testing her reaction at that point? Or do you think he was just beginning to imagine a real role for her in what he was planning? I think it was likely both. That was the impression I got, because he did it incrementally, like he was inoculating her to the idea. He started off by saying that he wasn't happy in his marriage. Then he started saying how he didn't love her.

Then it was she needs to die. To then I've been thinking about it. To I have a plan. To finally you could have this role in this plan. That was like slowly acclimating her to the idea little by little to gauge her responses at each stage, which makes me think that he was to some degree testing her reactions. But the other test, I think, is making her part of the plan.

It's like a loyalty test. If you really want to be with me, this is how it's done. And now we can really be together. And it's also psychological investment, too, because it keeps her stuck. At the time, Deanne didn't think Mark was serious. She dismissed his comments as nothing more than frustrated ramblings. It was disturbing, but not something she thought he'd ever act on. But over the next few weeks, Mark kept bringing it up.

And eventually, Deanne asked him to stop talking about it. She said if they were ever going to be together, he would have to end things with Donna in a proper divorce. However, Mark had already decided that he wanted to end Donna's life. And as he tried to formulate a plan, an opportunity presented itself. It started when he left town for work and Donna used the time to take Bailey to Florida to visit her family. When they came home, Donna's mother arranged for a shuttle van from a Missouri company called Bart Transportation to pick her and the baby up from the airport in San Diego. Louis and drive them the roughly two hours home to Springfield. However, things didn't go as planned because the shuttle driver terrified Donna.

The man driving Donna's shuttle was a 27-year-old named Roger Harrington. At first the trip seemed ordinary enough, but as they continued toward Springfield, Roger's behavior became unsettling. He told her about a spirit he called Dom, a voice he said spoke to him while he drove, and that sometimes made his body float above the trees. He discussed drug use, his attraction to older women, and openly flirted with Donna.

The whole time he drove well over the speed limit, and soon things turned even more frightening, when Roger said Dom had been telling him to hurt people. By the time Roger finally dropped her off, Donna was shaken. As soon as she entered her house, she told Mark everything that had happened. Mark responded like a protective, concerned husband,

but beneath that concern, he saw an opportunity to frame him for Donna's murder. Mark didn't keep this idea a secret either. He shared it with Deanne. According to her, he even went as far as to say that he just needed to find a way to get Roger inside his home so he could stage the scene so the evidence pointed to him. Ordinarily, when your spouse comes home from a trip with your daughter

and tells you about a frightening experience, the expected response is to make sure they're okay. Help them both process what happened and think about whether this needs to be reported. Not to see an opportunity in that experience or immediately start thinking about how you can exploit it to harm them. But this goes back to the instrumental thinking we were talking about earlier. Mark sees that Roger is useful. Roger behaves strangely. He frightened Donna and he made statements about hearing voices and hurting people.

He's recognizing that those characteristics could make him a believable suspect and he wants to use. that to his advantage for his plan. But now Mark isn't only contemplating taking Donna's life. He's willing to sacrifice Roger in the process. That means he's now willing to essentially take two people's lives. If he frames him, Roger could lose his freedom, his reputation, his livelihood, and potentially more, depending on what Mark is actually planning, which shows just how emotionally detached and calculating Mark's thinking has become. And again, how goal-oriented he is, because he's only thinking about Roger in terms of what Roger can do for the plan. Donna, Deanne, and Roger all seem to be seen to him in terms of utility. So by choosing to frame someone whose behavior already seems

suspicious, do you think Mark was trying to create a story that investigators would accept without looking too closely at him? Absolutely, because Mark has two problems to solve. One, depending on what this plan might be, he's going to need an alibi. And then two, the spouse is often the primary suspect when a wife is murdered. So he benefits from having an alternative suspect, one that is actually more believable than the husband. And Roger is, sadly, very compelling. But to make it more compelling would be to document this encounter now somehow. Otherwise, it would just sound like a scapegoat after the fact. According to Diem, she declined to participate in Mark's plot. She thought it was, quote unquote, crazy talk. Unfortunately, it was very, very,

much real. After the incident with Roger Harrington, Mark asked Donna to write down everything she could remember about the ride so they could have a detailed record in case they decided to contact the police. In reality, Mark just wanted to create solid evidence in his wife's own words against Roger. Mark then called the shuttle company to file a formal complaint using Donna's notes. As a result, Roger was suspended while the company looked into what happened. But Mark didn't stop there. He asked the company to give him Roger's home phone number, claiming that he wanted to speak with the driver himself. Roger was eager to resolve the complaint so he could return to work. So when Mark called him on the morning of August 29, 1995, he agreed to talk.

In the brief conversation, Mark suggested that Roger come to the winger home that afternoon so the two men could work everything out face to face. Before ending the call, Roger wrote down three things on a scrap of paper. paper, Mark's name, his home address, and the time they had agreed to meet, 4.30 p.m. Then he left the note in his car. Six days after he dropped Donna off in that shuttle, Roger pulled up in front of the Winger residence. He believed this was his only chance to clear the air and get back to work, but he knew the conversation would be uncomfortable at best.

And it seems like he was trying to maintain a good mindset because he approached the door with a coffee thermos in hand and a pack of cigarettes. in his pocket. When Mark opened the door, he welcomed Roger inside. It seemed like he was also hoping for a resolution. On the other hand, Donna wanted no part in the conversation, so she stayed upstairs with Bailey while Mark led Roger into their dining room. Roger started searching for the right words to make the situation right, but before he could say anything, Mark pulled out a gun and shot Roger in the head. I did not expect that. I thought he was going to have him come inside the home,

maybe get some forensic evidence that he was there so that he could frame him later. This, admittedly, I did not see coming. This was a pretty confident attack, even for someone who thinks they have the advantage because this is a controlled environment for Markets his home. But his wife and his child are upstairs. And that says quite a bit, I think,

about his belief and his ability to control other people, even people who he doesn't even fully know. Because there are so many things that could have gone wrong here. Roger is someone Mark has been told as unpredictable and potentially dangerous. He doesn't know what Roger could have brought with him there. He could fight back. Donna could hear something or come downstairs or worse. Bring Bailey with her.

Mark could lose control of the situation entirely and yet he's apparently willing to continue anyway because his attention is so narrowed on his goal. That's a lot of confidence, not only in the plan that he has, but in himself. He has to believe that he can anticipate what others will do and that he can manage it to risk this. And I think there's probably some overconfidence here too because the more confident we are, the more likely we are to underestimate risk. But again, Mark is treating people like pieces in his plan rather than independent human beings who can behave in ways that he wasn't prepared for or didn't anticipate. because bringing Roger into the home while Donna and Bailey are there really shows that.

That's a very dangerous situation and he seems convinced that he has it all under control. Why do you think Mark might have preferred an elaborate high-risk scene like the one he did over a quieter method that could have been made to look accidental? I don't know. I'm actually wondering that now too because I really did not see that coming. I thought he was going to have him come in there and frame him and with evidence that he was in the home. But genuinely, I did not see that. My guess is he's going to make this look like they were attacked by Roger and he tried to defend his family. That's the only plausible explanation I can think of that implicates Roger and would potentially divert suspicion from him.

It can look like an accident that way. And there has to be a clear narrative if that's the case. And if we're starting with the story that Donna had this, you know, scary encounter with Roger, then they filed a complaint against him. and then Roger comes to their house, then the most cohesive narrative would be a disgruntled or vengeful employee. And all of those pieces now fit together.

And Roger has a reason to be there. He has a grievance against them. Donna has already expressed fear of him, and Mark gets to position himself as another victim of Roger's attack, who just was trying to protect his family and his own home. Well, the gunshot made Donna hurry downstairs

to see what had happened. And when she reached the dining room, she was met with a horrifying scene. Roger Harrington was on the floor, bleeding and barely alive, and her husband stood over him with a smoking gun in his hand. Donna was in complete shock,

but before she could ask Mark what happened, he put down the gun, picked up a hammer, and barreled toward her. Thanks so much for listening. Come back next time for the conclusion of our deep dive on Mark Winger. Serial Killers and Murderous Minds is a Crimehouse original powered by Pave Studios.

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Dr. Tristan Engels, and is a crimehouse original powered by Pave Studios. This episode was brought to life by the Serial Killers and Murderous Minds team. Max Cutler, Ron Shapiro, Alex Benadon, Lori Marinelli, Natalie Pertzowski, Sarah Camp, Alyssa Fox, Mara de la Rosa, Claire Swartlander, Sarah Batchelor, Markey Lee, and Carrie Murphy. Thank you for listening. The moment a body is found, the clock starts ticking. 48 hours. That's how long detectives have before the trail begins to go cold.

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