Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin - Are Birkins Better Investments Than the Stock Market? The Truth About Luxury Investing with Dana Auslander

Episode Date: May 4, 2026

You’ve probably seen the headlines about luxury investments outperforming the stock market… but is that actually true? And more importantly, is this a game only for millionaires, or is there a way for the rest of us to get in on it too? Today, Nicole is joined by Dana Auslander, former Blackstone executive and founder of Luxus, a luxury alternative asset manager with the first dedicated Hermès Birkin fund. In this conversation, Dana unpacks the viral headlines, why her investment thesis puts Hermès bags ahead of other luxury brands like Chanel and Louis Vuitton, and how to invest in a Birkin without buying a Birkin. Then, Nicole and Dana zoom out and explain what the luxury investment trends mean for retail investors, how the macroeconomy impacts luxury investments, and what the counterfeiting problem could mean for the whole market. Then, Dana goes beyond bags and rates watches, art, wine, and jewelry as alternative investments. Check out Nicole's financial literacy course The Money School Find a Financial Advisor or Financial Coach from Nicole's company Private Wealth Collective Watch video clips from the pod on Money Rehab's Instagram and Nicole Lapin's Instagram Follow Luxus and learn more about the Birkin Fund Here's what Nicole covers with Dana: 00:00 Are You Ready for Some Money Rehab?  01:27 Are Birkins Actually Better Than the S&P 500?  02:00 What Is a Veblen Good — and Why It Matters  04:06 How Much Is a Birkin, Really?  04:29 The Secret to Getting One From Hermès  05:21 Manufactured Scarcity: How Hermès Controls Demand  06:12 The Rise of the Secondary Market  07:35 Gross vs. Net Returns: What the Charts Don't Show You  09:24 Jane Birkin's Bag Sold for $10.8 Million — Dana Was There  13:00 Is Chanel Actually Investment-Grade?  14:00 Birkin vs. Stock Market: Where Should You Put Your Money?  16:38 How the Luxus Fund Works  21:00 How to Invest Without Buying a Birkin  23:36 Sourcing Bags Through Private Dealer Networks  27:15 Storing, Authenticating, and Selling the Bags  28:33 How to Become an Accredited Investor  30:07 Is Buying a Birkin a Proxy for Hermès Stock?  32:20 The K-Shaped Economy and Luxury Demand  35:10 The Counterfeit Problem Is Getting Scary  38:18 Luxury Investment Ratings: Watches, Art, Wine, Jewelry  43:05 Secure the Bag: Financial Literacy for Women All investing involves the risk of loss, including loss of principal. This podcast is for informational purposes only and does not constitute financial, investment, or legal advice. Always do your own research and consult a licensed financial advisor before making any financial decisions or investments.

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find a co-host at Airbnb.com slash host. Are Burkins better investments than the stock market? What would the average annual return actually be? Per bag, it would probably be about 35 to 40% for our fund at least. Headlines like these about the Birken beating the S&P 500 have gone viral. But are they real? Today I'm talking to Donna Oslender, who spent 20 years in investment management,

and now she's onto her most fun project yet by far, building Luxus. It's an alternative investment firm with a dedicated Berkin fund. So she tells me the truth about luxury investments. Armes is known as a Veblen good. A Veblen Good is this economically. philosophy where when the price goes up, demand goes up. How to invest in a Birkin without actually buying one. The only way to be able to invest in Berkins and Kellys, in my opinion, is through a fund, through a diversified portfolio of bags. And the mind-blowing numbers behind it all.

It started, I want to say, about a million, not a million, $700,000. And I just wanted it to hit a million because then it would justify the investment visas. And it just kept going and going and going and finally it ended up with the Japanese reseller at 10.8 million. I'm Nicole Lapton, the only financial expert you don't need a dictionary to understand. It's time for some money rehab. Donna Oslander, welcome to money rehab. Thanks for having me. So excited to answer the age old question or I don't know if it's age old question, the Instagram old question or TikTok old question, are Birken's better investments than the stock

market. Well, Armes trades at 43X of its valuation, so it's very expensive stock. The only way to be able to invest in Berkins and Kelly's, in my opinion, is through a fund, through a diversified portfolio of bags. If you want to buy one for your personal collection, sure, you'll be able to sell it for a premium if you want, but you're not going to get probably, depending on what the condition of it is, you're probably not going to get what you hope. You're probably not going to get what you hope for. And that's probably because the resale platforms take a big cut from the consignment fee, as we know. Oh, that's for sure. I actually have been there. I sold a Birken on the Real Real. Yeah. And it did have somewhat of a return, but the fee is where you actually break even or

lose some money from retail. Absolutely. And it's actually really, in my opinion, distorted the whole concept of it being an investment if you're single-handedly trying to just sell your Berkin. Yeah, because what you're seeing online are all these charts that are like gross of fees. Yeah. Huge like up into the right, you know, but what would the average annual return actually be gross and then minus some of the platform fees? So per bag, it would probably be about 35 to 40 percent for our fund at least per bag gross and then net it's around 25, 27 percent because of all the fees. And we've negotiated those fees down to barely anything. So for the average, consumer it would probably be, I mean, it's still a really great return. So it's still,

it would be somewhere probably, I would say, between 18 and 20 percent. Over its lifetime. Over its sale. Yeah, it's lifetime. And if it's not like going to return something on an annual basis, because it's just, it's like buying a real estate building, right? So it's just, it's just if you buy a bag and then you want to sell it, your ROI on it probably will be about 18 to 20 percent on the consumer side. And typically how long is somebody going to hold that back? then 10 years, five years? It depends. I mean, it really depends on like for us for the fund,

it really, we want to sell it within 60 days of acquiring it because for us the sales velocity matters. We set up the fund not to really rely on the appreciation of a burkin, but on the spread between the primary market and the secondary market.

Wait, break that down in English. Okay. So if somebody doesn't know, how much is a burkin? A burkin is 14, like a 30 is 14,900. So $15,000. When I bought my first Birken, it was $4,800 in 2005. And so Armes has increased the price on it substantially. However, Armaz, Berkins and Kellys are known as quota bags.

And the reason they're called quota bags is because they are not publicized, they are not marketed, they are not offered to people. You can't just walk into a store and buy a Burkina or Kelly. You have to have a spent history of about 25 to 50,000. a year on other MES goods to be able to even be eligible for a Burkina or Kelly. And then at that point, you can maybe get a leather appointment. And even if you get the leather appointment, you're probably not going to get the bag that you want.

It really depends on what your sales associate wants you to have. It's crazy town. I mean, these are very, very, very high class rich people problems to have to go buy a sandal or an accessory or something to make nice, nice with the salespeople to maybe have the luxury or the privilege of dropping 15 grand on a bag that's maybe an ugly color. It's manufactured scarcity, but it works. And the hype around it has only grown. I think the secondary market and really the invention of the Real Real back in 2012 was when

all of it became sort of digital. You had Amazon and eBay obviously get into resale. auction well before, but it wasn't for luxury goods. And the real was really the first time that luxury secondary market picked up. And since then, you've had rebag. You've had what goes around comes around. You've had all these resellers hyping up Armes without any kind of feedback from Armes. And, you know, Armaz just kind of stays away from all the resellers. And the hype has just gotten crazy. And you have TikTok and Instagram. You have solopreneurs who just have fan accounts and are selling bags all day long. So the ecosystem around it has made the demand skyrocket.

I mean, I'm partial. My best friend did start tradesy. So we have to put them in the mix. I'm sorry. There's too many to count. Okay. So then let's follow the life cycle of that bag. If you're doing it just to be an investor, in which case you probably should leave it in the box, right? Like don't take it around. Don't dirty it up. But 60 days to get a double digit return is insane. Well, for us, that's what's important. And, you know, because we are a fund. So it's a diversified like portfolio of bags, just like you would invest in a real estate fund. And the idea is to return 2x of MOIC. MOC is multiple uninvested capital within the liquidity period. So the first fund that we launched was 15 months. And we've already sold 25 out of 50 bags. And we're probably

going to return 1.5x. But fund two that we launched last November, when we got all the viral news media stuff, that is 30 months and we'll definitely be able to return 2X of MOIC. And you're not going to get those kinds of returns in any other asset class right now. Even AI is questionable. I've seen you do a lot of shows on AI and that's all anyone's talking about and those valuations are through the roof. This is a more modest but much, much more capacity constrained strategy. Yeah, typically, and we've done videos breaking down how long it takes to double your money based on the investment return. So typically in the stock market, it will take you about seven years. If you're thinking of a 10% year over your rate of return, it will take you about

seven years to double your money. So you're saying it will take you 30 months, so two and a half years. Yeah. Okay. Because again, these are Birkins and Kellys and there's a whole portfolio construction philosophy that goes into it. We're trying to buy new in the box bags, which to your point have plastic still on them, receipts, orange boxes, and those are trading at a premium. And we also have pre-owned, which is what the Gen Z and the millennials are buying, pre-loved, pre-owned, the Peter bags that have been made so popular by the Olson twins that I personally also like. But for many, many, many people, especially millennials and Gen Z, the only entry point into a Berkin or Kelly is going to be the secondary market. They're not going to be

able to walk into our mess and create the spending limit. So that's really for boomers and the Gen Xers for right now and some lucky millennials. But the secondary market is really, really become the place for the growth to explode. So all of our activities, the funds activities are happening in the secondary market. Going back to what's become popularized is buying the actual bag. And we saw Jane Birkin, like the muse of the Birkin itself, her bag sold for $10.1 million. I was there. Oh, you were in the room? I was in the room where it happened. It was crazy. Tell me everything. 10 minute bidding. 10 minute bidding war. And it was insane. It started, I want to say, about a mill, not a million, $700,000. And I just wanted it to hit a million because then it would justify the investment

visas. And it just kept going and going and going. And finally it ended up with a Japanese reseller at 10.8 million. Oh, 10.8? Damn. Does a bag like that also experience the annual rate of return that you put in? Well, that's a provenance bag. So that's only, you know, Jane Birkin only had four bags, four Berkins or five Berkins. The other one, a second one was sold off by Sotheby also in Abu Dhabi for three million in December of last year. I was there for that too. And then the other two are with her daughters and we'll probably get passed down to her grandkids. But yeah, she was the muse of the Birken bag, as you know. And, It's created a complete frenzy around that. It was the second highest achieving fashion item in auction. The first one being Dorothy's Red Slippers. Oh, wow. That went for, I think, 30 million.

Wow. What a life you live, Donna. It sounds like to be your intern. This sounds amazing. So is that the most expensive Berkin ever? Yes, yes. That's the biggest sale for any handbag ever. Okay.

So for anyone who's thinking, like, I'm turning off this episode because there's no way that I can drop all this money on a Birken. We're going to talk about how to invest in the Birken without actually buying it itself. But I want to step back and talk about this Holy Trinity, the Hermes, the Chanel, because it's not just the Birken or the Kelly, as you mentioned, that can yield a return that sometimes rivals the stock market, right? So in my opinion, it is just the quarterbags because Chanel, for instance, and I love Chanel. Chanel has raised its prices by almost 90% since COVID, and it's turned a lot of the consumer

sentiment off a little bit, although they are having a great comeback right now with Matthew Blasey, but it's shoes. It's their shoes. I don't even know who that is. It's the new creative director. In our opinion, the only investment grade handbag is the Berkin or the Kelly. But hold on. If they raise their prices 90%, that would be an appreciation. So if you bought it before that price hike, you wouldn't have made that. if you sold it. Yeah, but then the secondary market premiums haven't been keeping up with that. So Arméez is known as a Veblen good. A Veblen good is this economic philosophy where when the price goes up, demand goes up. And Armaz, Patech and Ferrari are kind of the only three luxury goods

that fall in that category. Chanel doesn't. If you went and you wanted to buy a flat bag from Chanel and you paid $8,500 for it and you wanted to give it to the real real, you're likely going to get, the listing price will probably be less than the price you bought it for. Right. So you touched on a really important point that the Birkins and maybe the Kellys, I would say, but the Arameas bags and the Petit. Patac. It's a watch.

No, I know what it is, but I can never say it because I don't have one. And the Ferraris, right? Like these really high, high luxury brands rely on supply and demand. So like really little supply, big demand. And then that's why you can resell them for so much higher because they're so much harder to get in the first place. Yeah. And the whole concept of a Viblin good is when you raise the price, there's a psychology that the consumer wants it even more. And so demand skyrockets. So fine. The Chanel flat bag that the internet says is also an investment grade bag is not.

In my opinion, it's not. Okay. So if somebody is buying a Birken, they're like, okay, I get to hold the burkin. I get to touch the burkins, maybe smell the burkin. I don't know what you do with the burkin instead of buying Nvidia shares, let's say. And that's a big draw because they'll actually have a tangible good. Do you have to go into this purchase thinking, like, I'm going to use this as a consumer or I'm going to use this as an investment? I think you'll have to go into it thinking that you're going to use it as a consumer. That would be my mentality.

I would never, I have seven burghans. I would never sell any of them. I am attached to them. They represent certain milestones. in my career. I got my very first one with a blackstone bonus that I received in 2005. I took all the way to Paris to get it. So I would just say if you buy one, don't have a view to flip it. Also, Armes will not be happy if you do do that. Well, don't tell them. Yeah. They'll find out. I don't know. So, Donna, we had Kevin O'Leary on the show and he said the same thing about his

liboo-booboo. And I was like, Kevin, $5 million for your libubu. 10 million dollars for your If I said to you, I'm going to give you $5 million. You wouldn't sell any of your Perkins. I mean, I don't know. I don't think that would never happen. But I, you know, they mean something to me. I mean that every single one of them has a story. And, you know, I love walking around with them.

I love carrying them. For me, they really, you know, I love Carolyn Beset. And, you know, love story is happening right now on Fox. And I remember when I was 28 or 29 and a VP, I really wanted to have the exact same. Berkin that she did that she walked around the streets with. And so I bought it. And I call at that point, you could call her as and say, I want to get this bag. How long is it going to take? And they say two months, three months, come to the store and pick it up. And then they call you and you go and get it. It's completely different now. You can't get it anymore. So that's really what's changed.

You can't bribe the sales people? Have people tried? They don't get commission. No. They don't get commissions. They don't get commissions on the, on the quarter bags. So what are their salaries? They must be high. They're high, and I think they do get commissions on like homeware and clothes and shoes and belts. But I don't think they definitely don't get commission on the quarterback. So there's no incentive? There's no way to game this. They also, like, you don't even know how many Burkinson Kellys will end up at each or a mess store. So if they do end up there, it's usually up to the salespeople to decide who gets them.

And it's a whole ceremony. And I'm sure you've seen it. I'm sure you've seen. I've never done it. But I mean, it's, you see it in TikTok, like there's unboggings. Social media has really amplified all of this. For sure. And, you know, generally in entertainment right now, everybody's talking about live streaming and live shopping. That's a huge and growing category. How do you think the, the popularity of that has impacted? It's enormous. Like you're not going to see, you know, the videos that are going around of how fast they do it in some of these live shopping shows. Like, I'm assuming a. Birken is not going to go in that format. We have our first live selling event next tomorrow with eBay. And they are putting all of their eggs in the luxury basket now.

And so Moor Higgins, who isn't traders, is the host of the live selling event and our bags. All the bags from the portfolio will be there. Not all of them, but a select. And they're dropping a Birken every hour on the hour for a dollar. And as a start health point. Sure. And don't worry. We've handled the.

economics behind the scene. But it's crazy to see how many people tune into those and buy them. And how much celebrity has played into this? What's the lowest an auction or a secondary site has had a Bergen? I mean, I think they usually do go, unless they're really beat up, they'll go for a little bit above retail. So they'll, you know, we'll probably end up somewhere between 10 to 15% premium on the live selling for a pre-owned bag. New in the box commands a very high premium because it's brand new and people really, really want the brand new bags. I think it's also important to note that COVID created a real distortion in the market. People really, really started buying Burkins and Kellys en masse during COVID during the lockdowns. So the prices in the secondary

market skyrocketed. They've come down a little bit. There's been a correction, but Sotheby's says that, you know, it's usually within 2x of the price of a Berkin. So a brand new Burkin with the orange box received everything, when for two times it's priced at the height of the COVID pandemic. And now it's gone down to about 1.8, 1.9. Really? That's crazy. I was on the other side of that trade. I was so scared during that time. Yeah. I got to get rid of this. I know. But I guess I didn't participate in that massive upside. That's odd to me because the luxury market when the stock market goes down or we're seeing, you know, huge global events like that, you would think that people.

aren't buying luxury goods. It's the case-shaped economy really at play here. I mean, you've got the very, very wealthy, just getting wealthier and wealthier. And what they're spending their money on is mostly cars and watches and burkins and experiences. And women, I mean, this is, it's the one luxury good that women really care about. And every guy who's making a lot of money in the case-shaped recovery has a wife or a mom or a sister or someone who really wants a burgeon. The counterfeits are so good. So good. How has that affected the market? it's really, really going to be a problem, I think. There's a couple of AI-focused apps that tell you whether or not a Birkin is authentic. One is called Entropy. But it's the fakes have gotten so good. It's a non-negotiable for us. We have three points of clearing the authenticity of the bags. But the manufacturing in China and Asia has become really, really good. And you have to be very, very careful with what you buy. In my opinion, again, all of my seven Burkins have been bought directly from Hermes. I know they're real, but I think it's really scary what's going on out there.

Well, even there was an article about the real, real, that there were some fakes that got through the system. It's impossible for something not to get through the system. They're that good, and there's so much volume going through. There's so much volume of Birkins and Kelly's running around all over the world right now, from Asia to the Middle East, to Europe, to here. This is still the biggest market here in the U.S. But the case-shaped economy, economic recovery has only made demand,

accelerate. Explain the K-shaped economy for somebody who's trying to visualize. Well, the case- There's a lot of letters that you can be. The K-shaped economy, what I'm thinking of is that the ultra-high net worth of the family office money is just multiplying and becoming even wealthier, whereas the average consumer is not spending anymore. So it's taken out the aspirational consumer. So people aren't really buying unless they absolutely have to, if they don't have a lot of money still to spend. However, the ultra high net worth and the people who are making a lot of money on the top side of the K, this is what they're mostly buying. This experiences

cars, watches, art. That market's doing pretty well. What's the telltale sign of a fake? The stitching. For me, it's the stitching. I can really tell if I see something off on that there's blind stamps that Armes puts on the bags that are, if they're a, if they're put in the wrong place, somebody that will know is, we'll really understand authenticity, we'll be able to tell right away. Sometimes you can smell a fake. You can do all sorts of things to be able to detect them. Again, I'm not an authenticator.

However, we do have them on staff and with the partners that we work with. But they're just getting better and better. It's a blind stamp. It's like an invisible stamp. Yeah. I also think that there's going to be an interesting digital passport situation happening in Europe with Armaz. Chanel has already implemented.

did it where I think by 28 or 29, every single consumer good that's coming out of Europe will need a digital passport to prove authenticity. What does that mean like a token? That's a good question. I mean, you know, yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, is it invasive? Is it non-invasive? Chanel has a card that goes with a bag, but our mess so far hasn't done or said anything about this. So we'll see what, what, what they're going to have to do. They're going to have to comply somehow, But I don't really know how they're going to do it. I mean, when Liberation Day came around, there were a bunch of videos from China in particular saying that they make the Berkins and they would sell directly to a consumer. Did you see that?

Yeah, but all Burkins and Kellys are made in France. Nothing is made out of France. And so all, because they look so believable, these people that were like, they tell you that it's made in France, but really it's made here. No way. No way. No way. No. No. I mean, I think I would recommend that you listen to the Acquired podcast on Hermes. It's a four-hour

deep dive. It's fascinating what Armes has done and how they continue to grow. They've been around for 188 years. And this manufacturer scarcity around those two bags styles has been unbelievable. And if you buy a burkin or, you know, buy a secondhand burkin, how liquid is the next market, whether it's second or third. It's pretty liquid. For a Burkina or Kelly, especially in the desired styles and colors, it's pretty liquid. I would say it depends on sort of what's going on in the market, in the secondary market. But we sell probably about three to four bags a week.

So, you know, technically a bag should sell every 48 hours. So it's relatively liquid. However, there's a lot of friction if you're a consumer trying to sell a bag as we just talked about. That makes sense. And where would the best options be if you're trying to go to a second dairy market and not get screwed on the fees? It's tough. I mean, there are so many resellers and they'll all give you some kind of a deal. I would say don't settle for anything under 15% for Berkin or Kelly. In other words, don't pay more than it's 15% commission on it. But what I found out is that that commission is negotiable too. Yeah, 100%. But they usually won't go below 15%.

we do we get like it took it even with the first institutional check here and we basically get 10 10% it's hard it's hard to get the commissions because it's it's how these guys are making their money the resell platform well so let's dig more into lexas and how to get exposure into the asset class without actually buying the burkin itself can you explain how and why you started the first ever air may's dedicated investment fund sure So I'm a longtime private equity and hedge fund executive. I'm a lawyer. I did fund formation for years at Schulte Roth. I worked with Citadel and Lone Pine and those guys when they came out. And then I headed product development and structuring at Blackstone in the hedge fund group for close to a decade. And afterwards, I left and worked with a bunch of credit guys. But in the time that I did that, I started collecting jewelry. And I really love the Los Angeles jewelry designers. Anita Coe specifically. I was one of her first. clients. And I always wanted jewelry, at least, to get sort of the treatment of an investment versus just a consumer good that people were around. But I left it, went back to hedge funds.

And during COVID, during the pandemic, someone set me a prospectus for art, for fractional investment in art in a, in a osciat. And I was like, I can do a way better job structuring this than they have. And I've been doing this my entire life. So I started Luxis in 2021. It was when venture financing was flowing and crypto and NFTs and Metaverse were all the rage. But it was never really comfortable for me. I really like the world of accredited investors and qualified purchasers. I liked the institutionality of it all. So I always tried to create those investment opportunities around institutional concepts.

So we got Christie's on our cap table, Christie's Ventures. They are sort of the number one auction house, in my opinion. and it was really, really great having them on board. And I said, why don't we create investment opportunities? Fractional investments at first, but then we quickly pivoted to buy side, to fund investments. And we started with gems and jewelry, fancy colored diamonds at first. And then we found really great product market fit with family offices. And my thesis was always that the investor and the collector are the same person.

So you've got to treat them the same way. and I had spent so many years doing investor relations and worked with investors, but now I was also able to see them from the collecting side too. So you've got many hedge fund managers who have art collectors or car collectors or wine collectors. And I said, wouldn't it be cool if we figured out a way to kind of combine this? And we started doing experience around all of, because you can really experience luxury, right? You can drink the wine. You can drive the car. You can touch the burkin technically.

And that category just kind of skyrocketed. ended up wanting to do Armaz when Trump was elected, literally the week of, still November 2024. And I had just listened to the Acquired podcast, which was brilliant. And I'd known Hermes for 20 years. And I was like, you know what? In this kind of an economy, the only thing that's going to do well is gold. And I'm in the world of luxury. We're venture backed. We have Christie's. We have a lot of hedge fund money. So what's going to be the one asset class that I think is going to do well in this economy, Armes? So put our head down, did a lot of R&D, and we launched a proof of concept product for a million

dollars in May of 2025, so last year. And we worked with a reseller in the space, and we bought and immediately sold a whole bunch of Berkins and Kellys. At the time, it was just new in the box. And I know you're going to ask, how do you source? And I'll tell you that. And where do you store them? Where are these?

They're all in New York. They're all in the showrooms of the resellers. So they're all insurance, temperature controlled safes and vaults. And it was a huge hit. I mean, people really loved it. We started doing experiences in the Hamptons and in the city, educating women about financial literacy, but also explaining the history of our mess because a lot of people just don't know it.

And because the company's been really, really opaque. It's publicly listed, but it's very, very, very difficult to get any information out of them. The stock is very expensive. But they're running great numbers. I mean, they were up 10% in 2025. And it's just an incredible story. So we launched the second share class, if you will, for $2 million.

And I did a little bit of press just so that we could get the bags sold. Because for us, the thesis is the spread. It's not necessarily the appreciation in the secondary market. It's we buy low, we sell high. So how are we able to get these bags? at really great prices, market them, figure out who the right exit channels are, and then exit the bags and immediately buy new bags, and then continue the turnover period, just like stocks or commodities or anything else. So that's the story of the fund. And so we launched a $2 million

share class last year for a total of $3 million. It's up on deployed capital. Both funds are up 26% net, 35% gross. And we're launching fund three in the summer for $10 million. So these are tiny dollars to you, but in this kind of a strategy, it's a lot of money. That's not tiny dollars to me. Those are many dollars to me. But then how does somebody invest in that fund? Just like you would invest in any private fund. We have an administrator.

You sign a subscription document. It's open only to accredited investors. And it's a high minimum investment. It's $100,000 that we're probably going to raise to $250 because there's so much demand. So it's been great to kind of see demand for some. thing other than a data center. But, you know, here we are. And then, you know, what we do is we buy the bags and then we immediately list them on Sotheby's, on the Real Real, on First dibs, eBay, and they sell. So you don't actually ever take possession of them. You say they're

at these secondary retailers. No, we do take, I mean, their own. It's their portfolio. So we own them. They get bought from all over the world, but really the first couple of were, the first two funds. were in the U.S. only. They're shipped to New York. They are authenticated. They're inspected. They're cataloged. They're all being photographed. They are the star of the show. And then they're uploaded to all the different marketplaces. And Shopify has made life a lot easier for the resale world. And so they are cross-listed on a bunch of platforms. And they also make their way to a bunch of events. They'll be here at Milken. At least 10 or 15 of the bags will be. They're on tour. They're on tour. They're traveling.

We're also generating passive income with them by renting them out to the movie studios around here. Just be careful. No, no, no. Those are only the pre-owned ones. Oh, I see. I see. So being an accredited investor just basically means you self-attest that you have a certain amount of money, which is what now?

200,000 person and I think 300 couple. And basically it's, you know, a self-atestation. You should tell the truth. And it shows that you are comfortable with this level of risk and that you would be okay if you lost all of this money, essentially. Yes. And we also screen people. I mean, this is still an emerging asset class. So we want to make sure that everybody that's invested is really aware of the risks. And there are many. I mean, this is, you know, technically illiquid. The authenticity risk is real. You have counterparty risk with the resellers, believe it or not. So we want to make sure that everyone who is invested is really part of the LP. community that enjoys, you know, both making money and spending it and also experiencing it. So regular people can't invest. Or have you allowed like an SPV, which is a... So far, no. So far it's been family offices and ultra high net worth.

Let the people in, Donna. Yeah. Let the ladies in. We're still small. We're a small little one day. Yeah, one day. But, you know, a year ago, a lot of people started arguing that investing in Tesla was like a proxy. You got exposure to Elon's private companies, you know, whether it was the boring company or Neurlink or, you know, XAI at the time, is buying a Berkin, like a proxy for investing in Aramez? Or no, because Armez does trade at a 40, like, well, now it's 43X premium, so it's expensive. How much is the stock? The stock, it's listed on Euro Next. I want to say that it's, what, 1,800 euro share? But it's down 20% this year.

So if you do want to invest in our method, this is a good time to buy. It's on sale? I mean, the equity. Right. The equity is tech, yeah, because of the war. How would your fund relate to the price of the stock, if at all?

It's not really correlated because ours are physical assets and we actively manage them, just like a real estate manager would actively manage a real estate fund. We, you know, buy very, intentionally, the styles and the colors and the conditions that we know people want. We use data to verify all of this. We're going to be actually the first fund to work with Knight Frank on the handbag, the luxury handbag report that's coming out April 23rd.

Yeah, so we're creating a whole market, a brand new asset class. We're defining it. So when we buy the bags, first of all, the price has to be right, the styles have to be right, the conditions have to be right. and then we also carefully manage the exit. So is this the right bag for Sotheby's and their clients? Is it the right bag for eBay in the live selling stream? Is it right for we just partnered with Julian's auctions on Gwyneth Paltrow's auction

and we sourced the same bag that Margot Tannenbaum had? So, you know, trying to create narratives and storytelling around an investment but also a consumer good at the same time. I mean, a vast majority of people aren't able to buy a work and outreact. Right. You talked about this idea of fractionizing art, and that's become, you know, of course, very popular over the years. If somebody wants to go in together as this trend has happened more aggressively with real estate and the real estate market, like going in with friends to co-buy a Birkin, would you suggest? Yeah. I mean, you could. It's how would you get it, though? And at what

price? That's the issue. You're not going to get it from our mess. So, you know, you would have to go to the secondary market, pay their 35% premium or whatever they want to impose on it, and then hope that you can resell it for a price even higher than that. So it's just margin upon margin upon margin. So you really have to be careful because the acquisition price really matters here, and that's really how you're going to make the money. And for us, it's the most important part of the thesis is at what price do we get in and how can we secure it at scale. So how do you buy low or is this Well, we're the first institutional check. So we have to tap into a whole lot of private network dealers on WhatsApp that have been doing this for the last 10, 15 years.

On WhatsApp? We don't do it. Yeah, we don't do it directly. But we work with the resellers. We have partners both on the acquisition side and the disposition side who have been cultivating buying networks for years now. I mean, literally for 10, 15 years and are able to buy the bags either new in the box or pre-owned or whatever. and we then buy them, we store them, we photograph them, and then we sell them right away. So this is not a like try it at home situation? No, no, no, no, no, no. A lot of work goes into this. Every bet we have 80 bags now between Fund 1 and Fund 2. We'll have 800 by the end of the year.

Every single bag and every purchase we make has to have an intentional exit. It's a lot. For someone who's a complete newbie investor, can you talk more to the idea that? that luxury, you mentioned it briefly earlier, is uncorrelated with the stock market. So we see, and you mentioned the war right now and the stock market is in the pooper, but luxury, not necessarily Arme's stock, but the private market is still holding. Why does that happen? Well, I mentioned the K-shaped economy before, but luxury also is, first of all, the experience economy is taken off big time.

And the luxury companies have leaned into it quite, and that's paid off. But luxury is also coming off of a little bit of a slump for them. LVMH has been under a lot of pressure. Caring, which is the owner of Gucci, has been under a lot of pressure. And I think because during COVID, there was this push to democratize and to have these entry points in luxury

for the people that weren't more aspirational than super, super ultra high not worth. And that's backfired. You can't be all things to all people. The luxury companies that have done really well at Richemont, which is the owner of Cartier and Van Cleve, Prada, which now is Versace, but also Mu Mu, Mu, and Mu is done really, really well. And Armaz, Armaz actually has done really well compared to LVMH and Caring, but they're all starting to,

they're all bet big on the Middle East. They built stores there. The Dubai Mall, as I'm sure you know, is one of the largest malls, if not the largest mall in the world. And there's no tourism there right now. And so there are big growth plans, and we listen to all the quarterly calls that happened right before the war started, the biggest plans were to a, expand in Dubai and Abu Dhabi and Riyadh and all that's been scrapped. So the equities have taken

quite a hit. So it's uncorrelated to the overall stock market. Yeah. I mean, it, again, it depends. The single brand, the single name brands like Brunello Cuccinelli, Prada, Rishmont, even though that's really three brands, have done really well because they've just focused only on the ultra high net worth. It's the, it's the luxury equity names that have tried to become aspirational like LVMH Louis Vuitton and caring that have taken more of a head coach coach well coach yeah if you're getting the bag it's not an actual hedge in the intrinsic value right like you have a beautiful burkin on the floor right now a red burkin like the the value of that material is nothing it's manufactured scarcity yeah it's not like unless it's gold made out of gold

yeah but it's not yeah it's not it's not a it's not a precious metal It's not a scarce diamond. It's just manufactured scarcity, but it is a Birken or Kelly. That's why for the funds, we had to really narrowly define the category. That's important. You can't really go outside this narrow definition because it just applies to these two styles, the Birkin and the Kelly. Can't even get an Evelyn.

And Evelyn is another bag, a Constance. It's another AMES bags. Those are not quarter bags. And so this is manufactured scarcity. It's completely imposed by Armaz, V.I. store policy. And that's really what we're leveraging. And you don't think that manufactured scarcity ever goes away? I don't think it'll go away in the next, I would say, five to 10 years. And at that point, we'll already expand. Because what we're doing right now is we're still a wealth. We're a wealth tech

company. So what we're doing is we're just doing our MES first. And then we're going to move over to watches to wines and spirits, to jewelry. So we're just testing this thesis out now. And then moving on to other categories in a horizontal integration. I don't think Armaz is going to change. It hasn't changed its policy in 47 years since the Birken was created. I don't think it's going to change it anytime soon. So Gen Z, Gen Alpha, typically they don't love it the labels as much, but what you see on social media is that they love a Burkin. They still love a Burkin. But their entry point isn't Armaz anymore. It's the real real. It's the real. It's, It's eBay.

It's first dibs. That's not their entry point. And I think that's going to be a really interesting thing to watch because the people who are the RMS clients are the Gen X and the Boomers. And I'm not sure how well cultivated the Gen Z and the Millennials and the Gen Alpha community is. Well, there's a big wealth transfer on the horizon. A lot of Gen Z will be getting a bunch of bags, no doubt. So can we, if you're going to continue to go horizontal across the luxury, Well, you just rate these asset classes for us. So watches, one to ten, good investment.

The crypto market interfered with watches because so many crypto bros bought watches and then when FTX happened and they lost all their money, they sold them. So it caused the watch market to kind plummet a little. Rolex especially was hit. But I still think if you narrowly define the category, it's a good investment. It just depends what watch. So a seven. Seven. Yeah. Art. Again, it posts more contemporary is like a nine and then I would say other genres are more a five or a four the art market's coming out of a little bit of a slump now also but it's it's always blue chip arts always going to do really really well wine wine's in like a two or three because gen i jenzy gen alpha and the younger folks aren't drinking so the sales have gotten very very very very tepid and there's a lot of

inventory sitting out there. I love my Chateau Margo personally. So to me, it's going to be a passion project that I'm definitely, definitely doing a wine fund. But you also, the introduction of GLP drugs also has made people not want to drink as much. So the beverage industry has been hit. And I think that's one of the reasons you see LVMH's stock struggle is because so much of it is spirits and beverages. Yeah, wine has always been a weird one. When I was at CNBC, I did. I an alternative investment series. And the wine one was, there's a vinfolio, as you know, like an index that tracks that I have not looked at the binfolio recently. It's really taken a big hit. Like it's, yeah, I'm sure. It's taken a big hit. So anyway, we'll see. Okay, what about jewelry,

which is where it's all began for you? I mean, it's my, it's my passion. I think vintage jewelry from the 30s and the 40s, Cartier, Bulgaria, Van Cleef will always do really, really well. Collectors love that and they flock to it. I think newer jewelry has been, also in a weird situation because of the price of gold and silver and the volatility within that. So when you're trying to make a piece of jewelry, you're Anita Coe or Irene Newworth or Jessica McCormick, one day it'll be too expensive to create a piece and the next day the price will like plummet. So I think the volatility of precious metals has really kind of rocked that world, but it's still a nine out of ten for me.

So if somebody is thinking about investing in the stock market or getting a burkin, I still think that it depends when in the stock market, but I still think getting a burkin, if you can get it from a mess at retail, you always get the burkin. How do you win a relationship with your significant other over this? What do you say from an investment standpoint? Give the ladies a tip. Yeah. I mean, listen, it's something that you're going to have forever and ever.

You will pass it down to your kids, to your grandkids, the same styles that were selling out so well 20 years ago when I got my Carolyn Besat one are the ones selling out the best now, so it never goes out of style. It's not trendy. It's institutional. The other brands are, I'm Celine girl personally also. I love Celine. But I do think that Armez is just timeless. It's just, it's always going to be there. Donna, we end our episodes by asking all of our guests for a tip that listeners can take straight to the bank. What would you leave them with? The financial literacy for women peace. I think it's so important for women. to own their story and to own the narrative and to be able to invest in equities and credit and

alternatives and really figure out how to navigate the financial advisory relationships and their asset managers. And I've been talking to so many women who are doing this. And to me, it's become sort of a passion project and really important. So seek out all financial literacy programs for women and become the master of your own story. That's right. Buy your own Berkin. I need to convince somebody else.

Thank you.