Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin - Broke, Bullied, and Then... Christina Aguilera Called: Hollywood Hair Stylist Chris Appleton’s Story

Episode Date: January 22, 2026

From Kim Kardashian, J.Lo, and Ariana Grande, Chris Appleton has styled the biggest names in Hollywood, but his journey getting there was not easy. Today, Chris opens up about the hustle it took to go from a small-town salon in the UK to red carpets, and the bumps in the road along the way. Chris shares the financial trauma, internal battles, and deep personal work it took to get to the top—and stay there. He gets vulnerable about the struggles behind the success: coming out after being in a heterosexual relationship, the breakthrough moment with Christina Aguilera that allowed him to beat his imposter syndrome, and why the word “fine” isn’t in his vocabulary. Mental Health and Suicide Prevention Resources Find video clips from the pod on Money Rehab’s Instagram and Nicole Lapin’s Instagram Check Out Chris’ Book Your Roots Don’t Define You Find a Financial Advisor or Financial Coach from Nicole’s company Private Wealth Collective Here’s what Nicole talks about with Chris: 00:00 Money Rehab Presents: Chris Appleton 03:01 Childhood Struggles and Financial Trauma 06:53 Telling the Hater Inside to Quiet Down 10:54 Navigating a Scarcity Mindset 13:44 Chris’ Erewhon Smoothie 16:27 Chris’ Early Hustle Days and Evading Train Conductors  21:52 Moving to LA and Chris’ Big Break with Christina Aguilera 26:07 Chris’ Coming Out Story and Hitting Rock Bottom 32:05 Why “Fine” Isn’t Fine 34:52 Why the Hair Salon Feels Like Therapy 38:01 How Chris Built His Reputation and How to Sell the Sizzle 41:46 Lessons from Kim Kardashian 44:42 Chris’ Take on Marriage, Relationships and Self Love 45:01 The Importance of Self-Love and Selectivity 48:46 Chris’ Tip Listeners Can Take Straight to the Bank

Your financial journey shouldn't be a solo mission. Am I right? I am. You need a banking partner who's genuinely invested in your success story. U.S. Bank gets it. They don't just show up for your account opening and then ghost you. If you're saving for that engagement ring, they're cheering you on. If you're buying your first home, they're right there with you. If you're planning for retirement, they're still your biggest supporter. It's about having a financial teammate who believes in your potential and backs it up with real tools and real people who actually care. See what genuine partnership looks like at usbank.com because together we're unstoppable. That's the power of us. Equal housing lender. Member FDIC. Trademark 2025 US Bank. I once interviewed the CEO of a credit bureau and he confessed that his assistant has a better credit score than he does.

Why? Because she's more organized. Yep. Even the head of the credit bureau can use a little help in the credit score department. If you can too, then listen up because Chime has a card that can help. that can help you do just that. Chime turns everyday spending into real rewards and progress. Not like old school banks that charge you overdraft and monthly fees. Built for you, not the 1%. Imagine cashback and credit building with your own money finally on the same card. No annual fees,

no interest, and no strings attached. And when you get qualifying direct deposits, you get 1.5% cash back on eligible Chime card purchases. Chime is not just smarter banking. It is the most rewarding way to bank. join the millions who are already banking fee-free today. It just takes a few minutes to sign up. Head to chime.com slash MNN. That is chime.com slash MNN. Chime is a financial technology company, not a bank. Bank, banking services, a secured Chime Visa credit card and my pay line of credit, provided by the Bankor Bank N-A or Stride Bank N-A.

My-Peligibility requirements apply and credit limit ranges $20 to $500. Option. Option.com slash fees info. Advertised annual percentage yield with Chime Plus status only. Otherwise, 1.000% APY applies. No min balance required. Chime card on-time payment history may have a positive impact on your credit score. Results may vary. See chime.com for details and applicable terms. It's 2026, you guys. And if you're still paying rent without built, it's time for a change.

Built is the loyalty program for renters that rewards you for your biggest monthly expense. Rent. Let me explain. With Built, every rent payment earns you points that can be used toward flights, hotels, lift rides, Amazon.com purchases, and so much more. I can't tell you how obsessed I am with this business. You know how I'm always sharing money tips for people who are renting. And in my opinion, there is no smarter financial move for renters than using Built. And here's something I'm really excited about. Starting in February, Built members can earn points on mortgage payments for the first time. So homeowners, don't worry, you are not getting left out.

Soon, you'll be able to get rewarded wherever you live and unlock exclusive benefits with more than 45,000 restaurants, fitness studios, pharmacies, and other neighborhood partners. Personally, I'd redeem my points for GoPuff Home Delivery. As the mom of a one-year-old, I need a lot of stuff. And when I need it, I need it now. It's simple. Paying rent is better with Built. And soon, owning a home will be better with Built, too.

Earn rewards and get something back wherever you live. Join the loyalty program for renters at joinbilt.com slash money rehab. That's J-O-I-N-B-I-L-T dot com slash money rehab. Make sure to use our URL so they know we sent you. This episode was taped in the Money News Network Studio, brought to you by U.S. Bank. I'm Nicole Lapton, the only financial expert you don't need a dictionary to understand. It's time for some money. Chris Appleton is the Hair Wizard in Hollywood.

He's worked with Kim Kardashian, Ariana Grande, Jennifer Lopez, Christina Aguilera, Chris Jenner. The list truly goes on and on. He has built such an incredible celebrity client list, but he comes from nothing. Working hard wasn't the only thing to help him reach the top. It was also accepting his sense. identity. In its 20s, Chris came out as gay. And at the time, he had been in a relationship with a woman for years, and they had two kids together. This was a really difficult time in his life. And I should say that this conversation includes discussion of suicidal ideology. So please take care while listening.

And also, you can find resources in the show notes if you or a loved one needs help. But Chris worked through that painful chapter in his life. And today, he shares the lessons that he took from that time. In this conversation, we talk about how identity intersects with success, the story behind some of his most iconic work and how he's worked through his own imposter syndrome. Chris Appleton, welcome to Money Rehab. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you so much for being here. So I'm not a Kardashian person.

I've never watched. I know I'm the only person on the whole planet. I only ever watched one. But I dug into your book, big fan, your roots don't define you. And I discovered that you grew up Jehovah's Witness. Oh my God. I did not expect you to ask me that. It's so funny because you don't wrote this book.

And then people keep asking me, questions or eventually they're, did I say that? I wrote it so long ago, like actually only last year, but honestly, anything I do last week, I forgot about. I bring it up because, actually, there's some connection. My father actually invented a bloodless surgery that reached out to a lot of Jehovah's witnesses. And so we had so many Jehovah's Witnesses. Fab. Yeah. I mean, you know, I think what you'll find in the book is a lot about me that you didn't know. Who am I to like tell anyone anything about my life when people probably only know me as working with celebrities, having, you know, an image on social media, which looks quite polished and put together hopefully.

I don't know. That's what I tried to create without me just being really raw and saying, okay, you've seen this side of me, which is a very small part of who I am, but this is the real behind the scenes of it all. And I think, you know, I talk about some of the darkest moments in my life. I talk about some of the hardest times. And I talk about my comeback. And I talk about how I redefined, you know, my. roots and where I came from. Because I come from a very humble beginning. We were very poor growing up in

sort of Middle England. My parents had a lot of trauma passed on to them. My mom was 10 when her mom and dad got murdered. She didn't even get told. They read it on the front of a newspaper. My dad got put in a home at the age of five and they basically went through their traumas. And you know, some of that is inevitably going to be passed down through generations. One of the big sort of points in my life where a lot changed for me was when I first got my hands on hair. Because prior to that, I was told at school I was pretty, we're really, it was kind of stupid. Because I was dyslexic. I'm dyslexic and now we understand a lot more about that. Back then, if you didn't sort of learn in a very black and white way, you were stupid or lazy.

So I think I was fighting a lot of demons around that and also being labeled as gay because I did hair at a young age. I got a job and I really love doing hair. And I think sort of finding hair was something that was the first time I ever felt good at something. I was like, oh, wow, I'm really good at this. I get to make people look and feel great. And the first person I started with was my mom. And I wanted to make her look glamorous. So I'd do her hair and try and make a lot like some Hollywood star, you know,

because it was very far from what we were and what we had. And when she looked in the mirror, I realized she, she changed a little. She didn't recognize that woman that was, you know, mom of five kids, and she saw something different. And I think that was so powerful to me. I was like, oh, wow, you get to make people really feel. And I love that. It was like a superpower. So then I just really got focused on trying to be the best of it. Because I think for a long time, I was trying to prove, I guess, to everyone else that I was enough. I wasn't stupid. I wasn't gay. You know, I didn't want to be these labels. But in doing that, I kind of abandoned myself.

And I became very good at making other people look at themselves because I did it. for a craft does a job, making people look in the mirror, see themselves, be a better version, help bringing that out in them. But I didn't realize I wasn't actually looking at myself. I was very avoiding about where I'd come from because I guess I'd been told, like I said, it was wrong and I was ashamed of that. So for a long time, I managed to get away with that until I was like 26, which is when I came out, my whole life changed. And that was even more brutal because, you know, being avoiding for that long is a long time. And you have a lot of catching up to do and a lot of understanding. And if you're the type of person I am is I like to understand,

I like to understand why we do the things we do, why we make the mistakes we make, and how we can kind of be a better version from that. And, you know, a lot of that is in the book, because when you have both and when you have alignment is, you know, really when the magic happens in my experience. But for that magic to happen, you do really literally have to go back to your roots. Oh, yeah. And it's brutal. Sometimes doing that work is hard, you know. I'm sure. And a lot of the trauma that you talk about probably extends to financial trauma as well. Can you pull the thread for me to where money trauma came up for you as a kid? You did, you guys didn't have a lot of money. Were you shielded from that or was it stressful?

No, it's kind of what I knew. So yeah, we were really poor. I mean, I used to share a bedroom with my two brothers. I mean, you really have any food in the cupboards. If we did, it was gone within five minutes. And, you know, we were a big family of five and my mom and dad did the best we could. I think, maybe not having money as a kid or anything really. You know, I mean, I literally used to work in a salon at the age of 13. I got paid 10 pound for the day. I think it was a pound an hour. It's like one dollar an hour.

And I'd be like scrubbing, skirting boards. It wasn't like we were blowing out hair and doing glamorous things. We were like scrubbing, scurbing, scurting boards, making tea and coffee, cleaning toilets. But I used to save my money and I would like make it count, you know, because I wanted to get myself to a better place. I wanted to get myself out of what I experienced as a child, which was, you know, really poor. It was very, very brutal. And I think that's always motivated me to be better, you know, to push harder, to work harder. And with age, I've also learned balance

because I make such a long time and such a big part of my life, I was so hard on myself and always push in. And like, nothing was good enough. It was always, I was always like that voice inside your head, that hater, and I speak about this in the book, where we put ourselves down. Yeah, yeah, you call it the mean guy, I call it the hater where, you know, a lot of the time I see that happen. And most people might be able to relate to this when they go into a hair salon and they sit in the chair. And you know, you think, oh my God, I look tired. Why is this eye, like go down like that? Like these wrinkles, they went in the hip, my God, I've got great. Am I going bold? You know, all this shit we start talking to ourselves. Like, the hater inside that

voice can be really loud and really apparent. But I think what I've learned to do is find balance with that voice. And I think I used to use it as motivation, whereas now I think I use it as a, I'll let it, it's always going to be there, that hater is always there, it's always going to be there. It's not as though it ever disappears, but you learn techniques. And like I said, people will find this in the book to basically silence it. And if it's usually at a level 10, it'll maybe be at a level too and not for so long and you can come back to yourself and you're like I'm doing that thing you know it's not healthy and one of the biggest realizations I ever had and it's really powerful was actually seeing the child in me like as adult Chris I was doing this very possession and my therapist

was like you know I want you to sort of talk to him and I was like oh fucking I like I didn't really sort of believe and I was like who we go got wrenching therapy session right I'm going to talk to this kid and he's like you know what do you think he needed to hear and I was like I just remember feeling. And I remember, I think he just wanted to know it was going to be okay. And he's like, why don't you tell him that? And like, coming back to myself,

and I was like, oh my God, I've been so mean to myself. That voice has been so loud. That inner hater has been so loud my whole life. And it was a real moment where I was sort of understanding, like, you can be abusive to yourself, you know, and to learn to be kind. Like, I would never speak to another child. like that. I wouldn't speak to my children. I want to speak to anyone like that. But you speak to

yourself like that. A lot of people do that. A lot of people are you fat, you're ugly or you're not good enough. Like we constantly do it to ourselves. But I learned a technique to like come back to myself and just remember that little kid who is inside and it's a part of you. Whereas I think for a long time, what ideas I detached myself from that. I detached myself from the past because I didn't want to be it. Whereas now I use it as motivation. It's all me. All those versions were me. And like I think that's what makes you whole. And that's where I found alignment because like alignment extends. is one thing, but getting aligned on the inside was the real healing part for me where everything kind of came together, you know?

Yeah, you wouldn't be who you are today. Definitely. Without those versions. Definitely. And it doesn't mean you have it all figured out. It just means that you find techniques to be able to come back to yourself when you do lose it for a minute. You know, you can come back and it just doesn't last as long.

What is the hater saying these days? Is there greatest hits? Every now and again, I'll look at them around, I'll be like, oh, God, I got gray coming through fucking old shit. I remember thinking when you have grey coming through. I remember my brother having it. I was like, oh, he's got really old. And I remember looking at him around.

I'm like, oh, it's grey. I'm really old. But now I'm like, oh, yeah, it does mean I'm older. But actually, it also means I'm a little wiser. I'm financially in a better position. I'm secure in who I am as a person. And I think it shows like I've lived. And I actually think the salt and pepper look can be quite hot on guys.

So I just changed the narrative. You know, I changed the narrative. For a minute, I'll still be like, oh, you all fuck. the great. And then I'm like, well, am I actually? I think it's kind of hard. You know, and I'll just change the narrative a little bit. And if you do that often enough, you start to believe it. You know, whereas the easy thing to do is just to keep talking badly to yourself. You don't even know you're doing it. And that's what I've done for a career is I've helped people look at those things in

the mirror that they see or the limitations they have. And I've helped them redefine them and re-sort of direct them. I just didn't do it to myself. I found it so much easier to do it to other people. than to actually look in the mirror and do myself. Has there ever been a financial or money hater? Oh, yeah, of course. I think the poor boy in time is always there. Even now, I'll be buying stuff and I'm like, we went shopping every day and I was with my assistant

and I'm buying some Christmas shopping and like I'm going back to the UK. It's a really nice Christmas and I'm buying some stuff and I'm saying to my assistant Delaney, I'm like, do I need, should I have brought that? Like I'm not being a bit excessive like, do you think I really need that? And I'm like, I probably could take, I could take, I could take it back and I could get a couple of things. I'm like doing this thing I used to always do as a kid. And I'm like, I can't afford it. It's okay. I can get that. And it's all right. I don't think it ever

leaves you. Kind of like that it doesn't, because I'm very grateful to be in the position of me. I'm very grateful to be able to, you know, support my family. And, you know, I still work really hard for that. I've had a job since I'm 13. I would hope at 42. I can, you know. But I don't think it ever leaves you. There's always, it's always there. I think it's always there, that poor boy inside. Do I even see it in my parents, like, I see them, like, you know, they'll, never ordered a room service if they went to a hotel or they'd never touched the mini bar or they wouldn't even you know they've come to l-a they would i tell you what they would fly like from here to switzerland switzerland to paris i'd probably go back and then from paris they would go all over to

get here it from days i'm like guys what flight did you bought with the cheapest one possible because their whole life they've spent scrimping and scraping and making ends meet and a great joy i have now is they've always put their kids first and they always will and i'm trying to educate them like guys you have to like look after yourself we're good now we're all adults we're all grown up you get us all your years you know it's time for us to sort of support you and I want them to have like quality in their life and some nice things and I have to walk to Timbuktu because they don't want to get anybody guys it's all right but you know I know I see them stopping they're like oh right okay we can do this but there's always like this guilt because when you've always struggled for

money it's like it never really leaves you are there other money lessons that you had to unlearn To your point, when you're growing up, you don't really have the perspective, but now that you do. I've always been a real saver. I always felt like I wasn't good at saving, but my business manager said that they have never seen anyone save like I save. And I think there's the Brit inside me that always loves a good deal. I don't know why. It's like, you know, like in England, it's kind of culture where it's like, oh, come on, mate, don't be a bad deal. Like, how much for cash?

You know, it's just going to wheelie-dealy, like kind of attitude. Yeah, maybe a little bit. It's more like cheeky. It's my cheeky banter, you know, because LA is expensive. Like you go to Air 1, you can spend a whole mump's like wage on a smoothie. You know what I mean? It's not cheap. I mean, imagine doing your weekly shop there.

It's insane. You can spend, you know, it's like kind of shocking. You can buy like a strawberry. One strawberry, I think it was $20 at one point. You know, it's like, can be a lot. You had a smoothie. You remember I had one? That was really cute.

I was a very, that was one of those moments where I was like, yes, made it. Made it. Yeah, Air One smoothie. It was really fun actually to be recognized in hair and to be recognized in my craft and then put it into a movie. And that was great. It was really, really fun. Just like a nice little kind of, you know, those moments where you kind of think, wow, I had a call actually from Madonna's team recently. Like, oh, Madonna is really looking forward to welcome with Chris.

And I remember thinking, how does Madonna know who I am? You know, because as a kid, she was such an inspiration to me. Like, she was the only one at the time doing, like, you know, every album was something different. And she had such a vibe, you know, she did music, cowboy, who played. boots were a thing. You know, she, she would just really stick to that era. And at the time, I'd say she was the only one that was like reinventing herself so much. So it was always such a big inspiration. And I remember being like a 15 year old. And I cut out this thing from a newspaper and went on a bus. I took my mom. We went on the bus to like Paris. Me to go on the ferry and then it's

like queue up of hours. And I remember watching her show. And I remember going back to that like 15 year kid and I was like, wow, if you had a known that one day, you should be asking for me to do it, or even just know who I am in the realms of whatever. And it was like a real moment where you're like, wow. So cool. And when you like really put something out there and like a goal and you work towards it, mind you, this is literally what like 30 years later. Yeah, it's like overnight success 30 years in the making. People go, oh, how are you successful? I'm like, guys, not really. I had a job since I was 13. I've like, yes, I recognize that. And I'm very grateful to me in the position I am. But it's not been through any ease knowing a certain person. You know, when I first moved to LA,

it's like, oh, he's doing well because he's British. It's because he's tall. It's because he's got a big personality. You know, like, people were quick to just use any old bloody thing of why I was doing well. The why I was doing well is because I'd fucking spent 30 years in my life lining my craft. I used to, I was obsessed with learning. I even had a color degree. I got a degree in color and you know where you wear the hat and stuff. And like, no one even knows you could get a degree in color. I didn't know.

I learned so much about my crafting. If there's something I didn't know, I would go down. I remember I was in New York once. I got a book to do a shoot of a cover of a magazine. They wanted braids. I didn't know how to braid hair. I went to Harlem and I went into the shops and I was like, guys, can you help me? The braid shops, can I pay you to teach me how to braid?

I practiced on my doll's head. I would never like take anything for granted. just wanted to be good at, I wanted to be good enough. That was what I really wanted to be good enough. And really, all along, I wish I could have told myself that I was good enough. It's work in progress. Yeah. It's progress not perfection. Yeah. So you started working at 13. You left school at 16, right? And then you started taking free jobs around London to get more experience. Well, I was working in Leicester. So I got qualified. And then I kind of worked my way up in the salon on the price level. I was like, want to be at the top of the price level.

Like I want to go through all the price levels and be at the top. And then I got my own price level. And then I was kind of like, what else is that? And then I was like, oh, there's London. Because I was like from a small town of Leicester. And I was like, London, they do photo shoots. And like, oh, maybe I could do editorial stuff. You know, and I remember the editorial world was very like, oh, you're a salon

hairstylist. You're not cool. You know, you need to stay in your lane. You're always putting into boxes. Every stage from my life, people love to put you in a box. And so I'd go around with my portfolio. And I used to remember, I couldn't even afford the train. I used to hide from the train conductor because it was like a two hour journey into

London. And then I'd take my little portfolio in and they'd like go, okay, thank you. And then, you know, go to the next one. Okay, thank you. And then once I got a call back and I'm like, oh, you know, we want you to assist this hairstylist. I'm like, yes. Oh my God. You think I'd won the loss. Oh my God. Great. I can like, because that's like a sponge. I was so excited to watch. And if someone was like good at something, I wanted to know why. I was like, why are they good at this? What, what is it? Why are they a head leader at a fashion show? Is it the way you? Is it the way They talk. How do they compose themselves? How are they treating other people? What is their, you know, how does their team work? How do they run their team? I was just like a sponge absorbing all the information. So I'd be like passing up pins to someone, but I was watching and I was taking everything and I was watching the dynamic. I watched how people interacted with each other. And then I'd go to the next thing. And then I had some lucky breaks. I won a TV show in the UK. It was like the great British breakoff, but of hair. So everything was just like a leapboard. And nothing. was huge. Nothing was like, oh, you've made it. Everything was like, you had to really make the most

of each moment and use it as a leaprog. And there was still so many nose. And so many times I fell flat on my face. And you know, I'd get an agent and then I remember saying, you know, I really want to do the cover of Vogue one day. That's my goal. And they laughed at me and they were like, you'll never do the cover of Vogue. You're like a salon hairstylist. And they were like, you got to keep it real, Chris. Like, don't let your ego go ahead. Oh, okay. And they booked me a job for like a flip-flop campaign. I was doing a pony town. I remember thinking, I'm going to keep going. I'm going to keep going. Now I've done the cover of like, you know, American vogue, British vogue with some of the most famous women in the world. Like I've done international vokes and

like if I'd have listened to what other people had told me, I wouldn't have done any of this. I wouldn't have even come to America. And I think my journey was just, it just kept going. I just kept pushing. I'd get a know. I'd fall back down. Pick myself back up and got out there. fall back down pick myself up get back out there i've always just sort of tried to be motivated by it well imagine it to be very hard to hide from a conductor at six three but you did it and london i'd be like sorry i they're like you were sitting at all no i don't know i've been doing some accent it's like you're here you i saw you and i'm like oh i don't sorry i don't know i i put like i don't know uh i'm going he's like no you need to pay and i'm like i don't

I don't talk English. I don't know. I literally, you probably think it's an insane person. And I'd be like trying to run down the train avoid this bloody train manager. And then they'd get me on the platform.

I've got no money and I can't afford it. But I just had a passion. I just loved it. And where there was, I used to get the bus. The bus was three hours. The bus was even longer and that was painful. Well,

I was going to ask you, what's the most unhinged thing you, you did during that time to save money in an expensive city, but maybe that's it. And you know, it was interesting because, cut a lot, cut fast forward.

There's a lot that happened in between, but eventually I started to work with celebrity. So I did some fashion show stuff, started working with different makeup artists, then sort of started to do like a few magazines, not great magazines, just like weekend newspaper magazines. And I worked with a makeup artist that worked with a celebrity, Rita Orra. And she's like, oh, she's looking for a new hairstylist. And she recommended me.

I ended up working with Rita for two years. And that was my first kind of celebrity. That was the beginning of social media. Social media, I started to post my work on Instagram and just, I was very naive to knowing that people looked at it, you know, the people that followed you, like my mom and dad, and my mom always wrote a nice comment. But then I remember one day I got a call from Jalo's team. It was an email, and I ignored it because I was like, well, what else are you going to do? This is bullshit.

Did you think it was a spam? Of course it did. Well, if you got an email from Jalo, wouldn't you think it was a spam? Do you know what I mean? It's like, hey, you've won a million dollars. I remember being at the phone box ringing back for the million dollars. I think it cost me 500, in coins trying to call through. You know, it was like, they're always fraud. fraudulent things. So I was thinking, oh, it's stupid. And then I got another one. And again, it was that moment. I was like, how does Jailo knew who I am? I'm just Chris? You know, just Chris from Lester. I was just doing my thing. And so I responded. I was like, I actually couldn't do it because I wasn't available. And I remember thinking, you know what?

What do you mean you weren't available for JLo? Because I was with Rita at the time. And we were doing the X Factor. And I think they wanted it like that weekend or something. I wasn't even in L.A. They weren't going to fly me there. I had to get myself. I had to, I think they thought I was a local or whatever, you know, they weren't, you know, so I was like, it just was impossible. So I was like, maybe I need to make the move. Like, maybe that could be the next thing. Like, because Hollywood, it was always the thing I used to do in my mum's hair. It was like, what inspired me. And I was like, maybe I could go to Hollywood. Maybe I could do this. So I moved to Hollywood. And for the first three months, I didn't do anything. Didn't work. And I

ran out of money. I'm a father of two by that point. And I remember I got a call to do Christine Aguilera's hair on the voice and I was really excited about it but then paralyzed with fear and I was on the way to do a hair for the voice and I remember saying to them over of my kids Kate who were still best friends and I was just like I'm so scared like I can't I just I'm terrified like I can't do this who the fuck did they think I am I completely had imposter's syndrome I was like who do I think I am what am I playing at like this is crazy this is the big stuff this is Hollywood this is what I used to look at when I was a kid. And I'm not worthy of this.

And I remember her saying, look, if you don't make this work, Chris, you're going to have to come home. Like I'd spent my money. L.A. was so expensive. I had two kids support. And so I went to the voice and I thought, I'm going to do this. I'm going to be great.

So there was three hours for glam. And the hairstylist, the makeup artist went in and left me waiting outside. And an hour went by and I still wasn't invited in. So I was thinking, oh, well, maybe she's got someone else to do her hair. Like, she just wants some finish. chin touches, you know, another hour went by and I'm like, well, it was really not a lot of times and maybe this is just all the mistake. It's probably a mistake.

I think it was a mistake. I think I should go home. I think I should be here. And then I remember the last 20 minutes before the live show, they were like, oh, you can go in now. And so I went in and she's like, what do you want to do? And I was like, I want to have three hours of glam. You know, but in my head, I'm like, oh, well,

and hair was ready to be done. And I was like, had all these weeks, perhaps, had all these pieces. And I thought, that would be a really quick way to sort of like, change the look up, do something fun. And the blonde,

the wig was like a bit cooler in color, wasn't as warm as what she was using. And so she's like, oh, I don't like wigs. And I said, oh, yeah,

yeah, why would you like, why would you like anything? I thought, why would you like anything I got to do, really? And I was like, she can see me.

And I felt like, little Chris, I felt like the little boy standing at the window and I felt like I was him, standing in front of her. And she's just looking at me like, I'm a loser, you know, like, I'm like, not that she was, but I felt that, that my fear.

And fear was coming through my body. You know, when it, like, paralyzes you're like, oh, my God, I'm just, I felt like my arms couldn't move and my, I just felt like I froze. And then I had this very distinct moment. And it was a really big moment in my career where it felt like the crowd, the clouds kind of parted. And it was this moment where I remember Kate's voice. And she was like, if you don't make this work, you're going to have to go home.

I remember thinking to myself, you know, I didn't come this far to come this far. Like, I know what I'm doing. If she doesn't like what I'm going to do, that's okay. Like, if she doesn't like what I've got to do, that's okay. It's just not a match.

But if I don't do me and do what I'm good at, I will always kick myself. You know, if I don't show her what I can do, like I'll always kick myself. I miss that opportunity. So I got one of the wigs out of the bag and I sort of put it on a head. Let's just try it because you've never seen one of mine.

Let's just see what it looks like. And she was like, oh, you know, and I was good at what. weeks because I'd worked with cancer patients in the salon. I got really good at like tailoring them, doing a little root. Weeks have come on so far, but back then, there was still were like all up to date with the rooting and the plucking of the hairline. Anyway, I did all that because of these cancer patients that I worked with. And she was like, oh, wow. And the stylist was like, oh, I like, oh, I like, so I put it on ahead and off she went. And she went on live on the show. And everything's been

myself like, oh my God, I hope it looks good. And I was watching the screen. I was like, and little sneaky pictures, I'd send it to K. I'd be like, she's like, it looks good. I think it looks good. And then I remember she came off set and she was talking to like the other judges and she looked over her and she went, everyone likes your wig and then like carried on talking. And in that moment, I knew I'd done it. I was like, oh, I did it.

And I worked with her a few years after and that was kind of the beginning of like everyone then recognized their hair and we did these hoops in her hair and it became a thing. And then I started working with Ariana and the lavender hair. And it just snowballed. But in that defining moment, it could have been very different. Because if I had to get into that fear that literally was consuming my whole body, I wouldn't be here now when I wrote the book and I wouldn't be in L.A. As that professional career was exploding, your personal life,

two kids, at 26 you came out during a difficult transition period in your life. Yeah. But he's going through something like that. What would you say to them? The best thing you can do is start. just start by recognizing that there's something that you want to change, something that maybe doesn't make you happy, you keep getting yourself into the same patterns of relationships,

you get the same outcome that you don't like, even if you look in the mirror and think, is this it? Is this enough? Is this what I won? The lowest moments of my life, where I have made that comeback, I didn't know what the next day, I didn't know what the next minute was going to be like,

but I surrendered in that moment and just knew that I wanted to change something. And so I think to anyone listening that is in a situation that they feel lost in or unsure of or wouldn't change, it's just about, first of all, looking and acknowledging that. And like, this, I want to change. I want to create something different. I want to change this pattern. And just starting there is the first place. Because so many people, I want to change, but I don't even know how to start and to start at start. You know, don't have to get to end.

You don't have to get to the middle. And there's no rushing through it. because doing the work is hard. You have to really face some, if you really look at yourself, if you really look at the mirror, all the bits that you don't like. In fluorescent light.

Yeah, you really do. It's a real magnifying glass. And that's why a lot of people, I think, struggling in relationships, because it's such an exp- it's basically a mirror. It's that other person

tends to be a mirror to you. And I think that's why, you know, a lot of people can struggle in relationships because it makes them look at themselves, you know, and if you're not comfortable doing that,

it's never going to work. You've got to be comfortable with yourself before you can get involved in something else, you know, you've got to be aligned with who you are, you know, know, know, who you are what's important to you and, you know, grow with someone, but you shouldn't be fully unaware of those things because I think that's a dangerous thing to get into it. Do you think that once you align with who you really are, your true identity, that unlocked even greater success?

Oh, God. Yeah, like, I just wouldn't, I wouldn't, well, I don't even go be alive if I hadn't, if I hadn't have found alignment. If I hadn't found myself and come back to myself, I don't think I'd even be here. It wouldn't be about like having money or having a career or having success. It would be like not be alive. That's how far I went.

We're trying to not be authentic, not be who I was, be defined by my past, be the things people told me I should be. But I started one day at the age of 26, after I did try and take my life and I didn't die, And the next option was to surrender and stop fighting. I didn't even know I was fighting so hard until I stopped, until I just let go.

And I felt physically, I remember feeling it in my body. I felt like my shoulders went down and I let go. And it wasn't a big moment. It wasn't loud. It was very quiet. But I just thought, I can't hate myself anymore. I couldn't try and be something else anymore. So what about if I just stop?

What about if I just start here? And in surrendering and just start in there, a lot changed. And I didn't know what was going to happen next. And I didn't know what's going to happen the next day. But I had that moment right then. I had that. And that was enough.

It was enough to say, this is who I am. Acknowledging my past, where I'd come from, seeing that, sitting with it. But deciding I wanted to make a change for the rest. You know, the rest of the years ahead, I wanted to make a difference. Who helped you during that time?

I mean, my family has always been great, but I think there's so much you want to protect people from. You know, like with family, I think, like, you don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. And it's not anyone's fault that circumstances. Like, everyone does the best. Even as I'm a dad now, so even as a dad now, I know I've done things that my kids, it will affect them and they will need to do work on. It's not as though anything was bad intention. It's just like we all got, we all kind of grow through life, learning the lessons we learn. And we do our best to, you know, pass them onto our kids.

and sometimes we don't pass on the right information. So I think I felt like it was a personal journey. Also, I didn't really have anyone to look up to in terms of like, my brothers did very much boys stuff, like they were mechanics and footballers and firefighters. The girls did kind of girls things. And I didn't really feel like I fit in either. I felt like in a creative space.

I was dyslexic. No one else was dyslexic. So I was very verbal. I wasn't very kind of literal. And I think a lot of the journey was my own. think it really started, but just looking at myself. I didn't, for the first time, it wasn't about someone else looking at me. I had to look at myself.

I had to come back to myself and go back to that little kid and be like, oh, wow, I think he just needs to know it's okay. And it doesn't happen overnight. It doesn't just fix, you know. I still get triggered today. I got triggered about something on the way over here. And I remember, I went back and I was like, oh, that's really annoying that happened. And then I can come back to myself.

I'm like, well, it's kind of like an old version of myself. Like, really trigger me like I used to. You know, like, it's just life. I don't like it when people are like, I wrote this book and I know everything because it's all bullshit. Like, you know, we all, we know what we know from experience. And I think there's some amazing information and amazing books out there. But we are all human and we all still make mistakes and we all still get triggered,

no matter how much information, you know. And I think it's really good to humanize that and know that it's okay. to not have it all figured out. Even if you've done the work, you still get triggered and trip up sometimes. Yeah. But you'll get yourself up a bit quicker. And if it's, I like to say if it's hysterical, it's historical. Absolutely.

If you're reacting in an inordinate way compared to the circumstances, there's something more. There's some scar tissue there. Totally. Totally. And I really like in your book that you talk about the idea that you shouldn't tell people you're fine if you're not because it's always a throw. I hate the word fine. Right? Like, it's like, how are you?

If I said today, how do I look and you so fine? But I'm going to go and change. You look stunning. Oh, thanks. But imagine if I said, what, you know if I said to you, are you triggered by the word fine? If you said, Chris, what do you think to my hair? And I was like, I think it's fine. I'm triggered by general small talk.

Oh, really? I don't like it. But I like that you give some lines that people can use instead. Totally. A fine or good. Like, my favorite is just preparing for my comeback. Totally. Fine.

He's just such a middle of the ground. And I've been a fine in my life. I'm not fine, especially in relationships. I'm like, oh, it's fine. How are things he's fine? It's fine. It's not fine. But you know, like, you tell yourself it's fine. It's kind of like, it's really bad, but I'm just going to like, I'm good. How are you? You know what I mean? It's just like, how are you doing? I'm fine. It's just such a facade. It's not really a real thing. It's just the middle of the ground. And I'd like to go, if you're not fine, I'd like to know about it. Actually, I'm having a really bad day. I had some news this morning that my cat died and I'm devastated. You know, I just like, I think it's more real. I just like to know more real stuff. Well, not drowning is not the same as swimming. Yeah, totally, yeah.

Like, just because you're fine and you're not dying. Well, you've ever been in the salon? Do you know when it comes the best is when you're in the salon? Is anyone ever cut your hair really bad? Of course. So you sat there. I had a huge hair depression. Oh my God.

You sat there and what do you think? It's fine. It's not the truth. It's because it really, it's not fine. You go home. What the fuck? That crazy motherfucker cut my hair off. Like, I hate this.

Like, oh my God. Like, what are you go crazy. I ring everyone. Oh, I had this hair. Every day you wake up this hair. It's not fine. Far from fine. Thank you so much. You sit in a chair. It's dying. Thank you so much. You know, and it's not fine. I feel like sometimes fine. I can be a little bit dishonest. You know, it's not really a true feeling of being honest and being aligned with who you are and how you actually feel. And sometimes we can just use that word as an excuse. You know, don't see me. It's okay. Don't bother about me. So I think that's why I find for me is a big.

But at the same time, you don't want to be so TMI. So I like that you say better than some, not better than others. Yeah. Yeah. So how are you? I am today great. I feel really excited about talking about my book. I'm really excited that people get to know a little bit more about my world,

the people I've worked with, some of their stories. And hopefully I can make people laugh. Maybe make people cry. And I'm grateful to be in a position in my life where I, at 42, can share some of my journey. I hope that brings someone out there, some peace and some joy. That means a lot to me.

I'm very grateful for that. So yeah, I feel grateful. I think it will. And you talk, you've done so much therapy, it sounds like, but you talk about this idea,

too, that sitting in a hairstylist's chair is like therapy. Why do you think that experience is so vulnerable and do people talk to you like a therapist? Oh my God, yeah, the stuff that happens in the chat.

I've had some, I remember I was back in a salon and have women like, crazy stuff happened anyway we'll get into that but like yeah I think how many times do you know how many times you look in the mirror a day how many times do you think you check yourself out

very interesting when I'm not in the best mental health space I don't look in the mirror as much but how many times do you glance in the mirror a day you know you brush your teeth you do a brush in your hair you know you bring some deodorant on yeah like 10 to 15 times a day so you look in the mirror and what do you see? You don't necessarily register do you just like just you

I see myself yeah it's you you know what you look like with your hair in a bun or down. You know what you're looking like when you're brushing your teeth. You know what you're looking good lighting. No, it's just like a glance, right? But I think what people will find in this book and what it will give them ability to do is to actually stop and look and see themselves.

And that's a bit like what happens when you come and sit in my chair in a salon. You sit in the chair and again, most people go to the negative route like, who everyone's sat in that salon chair and they're like, is this lighting bad or am I looking fucking old? today. You know, like most people tend to go down that negative route. I don't very often hear people sit in their chair and be like, I look fabulous. Wow, my boobs are perky today and these are great roots really suit me. You know, most people go to the negative side. So I think what people will find in the book is like it's going to be like sitting in my chair in terms of you actually stop and look at yourself

and you look at the things you don't like and look at the things you do like and you look at where you want to get to and maybe let go of some of those beliefs you were told that you weren't, you know, weren't possible. Like in my chair, for example, I'll give you an example. Miss Jones comes in and, you know, she talks about, she's a brunette. She's always wanted to be blonde. She knows she can't be blonde, you know. And I'd stop them in the, so tell me, like, why do you feel like you can't be blonde?

And like, well, I just know I can't do that. So who told you that? Well, like my mom told me when I was a kid that I have to be on brunette and that's what suits me. I'm like, it's so interesting that we let our roots define us, because that's just someone that had this idea that you should be one thing. And in actual fact, like, I see so much possibility for you. And there's endless things. And once you start saying, well, you know, what about if we found a version of

bond that suited you and your skin tone and your eye color and even your personality type? And like, well, I could do that. Yeah. And it might not even happen then, but once you've planted the seed, you know, the next time we've been thinking about what he said. And, you know, I think I would like to go like, I think I'd like to see something different. And like you can bring something out in people that like it's like, it's like a superpower. It makes them see themselves differently. It makes them realize they're not defined by the roots they were given and their past.

And they can retell their story. And that kind of became like I say, like a bit of a super power being able to do that. And the idea that you along the way have created an amazing professional reputation for yourself. What advice would you give to other business owners, entrepreneurs, to create that reputation? I think success is really interesting. Like people say you're successful. And I can, I can, for a long time, I'd be like, oh, whatever, I'm just a hairstylist. And I have that self-deprecating kind of feeling about it.

It's also a British thing. I think it is a British thing. But I can also now be mature enough to be like, thank you. Like, I've done well. Like, I've worked hard and I've had some successes. I've also had plenty of failures. And I think anyone that is wanting to start out, it's, it's about using the tools that can able you to showcase who you truly are.

Like, if you want to make your stamp in the world, like with head. like I wanted to showcase what I was good at. I think what I'm good at is I'm not a beachy wave kind of guy. I'm good at like changing things up. I like to kind of bring out the best thing. People like to move things on, tell a story with hair. So people would go from long to short and then bangs

and then they wouldn't and I kind of like to story tell. And I think that's the, that was like my superpower. I want to sort of show that in my social media that, you know, I do these transformations and that people can, you know, create different versions of themselves. So that was like my superpowers. staple. Now if you're a really good colourist and you're great at blondes, like that would be your

staple. You've got to think of what what you're defining thing is that makes you different in the world of, you know, hundreds of thousands of millions of people that, you know, also do hair, or also are in business or also work at a bank or also want to start off their own business. Like, sell the sizzle, not the sausage. It's about kind of what is your selling point. I had a friend the other day. I won't say who it was, but she sent me this video and she's like, hey, I'm launching this brand what do you think can i send you the video she knew it wasn't good because she's like i filmed it three times and there's something off about it could you look at it and tell me what you think said yeah send it over i'm like babe what are you selling the chair and she's like well no i'm actually selling

this and i'm like but all i'm looking at is this chair and why are you sitting in front of a you're like you're selling like an old person's home like some cozy like what the hell are you get the product i want to see the product i want to know in the first three seconds why you are the best of what you do. You've earned this expectation. She's phenomenal what she does. Tell people. She's,

I don't want people to think I'm a big head or like, I don't want to like, I'm like, use the celebrity, you know, work with the celebrity, show the celebrities you've worked with. Like show, show that, showcase your work. Show case. There's some of these amazing,

talented women, some of the most famous women in the world choose you. And she's like, well, do you think that? I'm like, what you post pictures of them? Why? But when it's about you, sometimes you're like, oh, I don't want to be too much.

I don't want them. And it's like if you're going to be a brand and you're going to be a business, you have to make some noise. You have to let people know because we have a very short attention span. And when you're flicking through Instagram, you've got a couple of seconds of like attention.

You're like, oh, you know, if it's not captioned your attention and it's not clear to you what the message is, you tend to flip away. So I was like, you need to real film this. And I want to tell me in the first few seconds, I want to see the people you work with. I want to know why you're the best of what you do.

And also, what is this product you're selling? And she's like, well, it's this, and this and I'm like, I don't get that. I get that you're into like this animal or, or I, and it was like this animal was, I can't, I don't want to tell you whatever, but like, you might tell me off. But she was hysterical because we've been friends for a long time and she's laughing. She knew. She's like, you're so right.

And I was like, baby, believe in yourself. Like, because she's the most talented at what she does, but she just wasn't showcasing it because she didn't want to be too much. And instead, she was just showcasing like everything but like, like, like the actual product and the beauty of it and why it's the best. And like you've got to make that stand out. So what you're good at, tell people and sell the sizzle, not the sausage. Who's your favorite client?

I love everyone I've worked with. I think I've learned something different from everyone. And I very much think I've always been like a sponge. Like, you know, Kim, for example, what she's done is always been such a big inspiration to me in her career in terms of like she was in reality star. Then she did the law and got into law and, you know, the law degree. And then they came an actress. And meanwhile, I was doing skims, which is this billion-dollar company, a multi-billion-dollar company,

and, you know, see her build it from the bottom to the top, you know, and then be a great mom. And I've always been a sponge working with amazing people. I've always like, how do they do that? How do they manage that? What's the balance here? Do you have a favorite look? Like it has to be known for, yes. Not really.

I think, like, that's up to other people to decide. There's things that's that. But people always say, oh, J-Lo Super Bowl or one of Kim's Metball looks or, or, you have a orion de Grande's ponytail when we did like the hoops and stuff in it or there's lots of things that people like I think the one thing that I'd like to be remembered for is maybe seeing people and help them see the best version of themselves and bring that out whether it is Jalo or whether it's Mrs Jones that comes in a salon or if it's someone on the today show or if it's a cancer patient that lost their hair I just want people to know that looking good and feeling good is more

than like a superficial thing. It really is something that can change your whole life when you get it aligned. And it's really simple. And that's what I mean about finding yourself and finding alignment. Because when you really know who you are, like there's three different types of client. You've got the whisper client. The whisper client would be someone that doesn't like to make too much noise in both the literal sense and also the physical sense. So maybe trim the hair every six weeks, keep it healthy, maybe cover the roots like the grey or keep it very natural.

And then you've got the other type of client, which is a talk client. So that will be someone that gets highlights, keeps up with their trends. Oh, balliages is in now. We'll do balliage. Someone that likes to keep up with trends and evolves, but it's not like insane. They'll just keep up with the latest trends. And then you've got like the scream client. The scream client is someone that is not really about following trends.

They like to set the trends. They will go against what suits them, against their skin tone, against their eye color, because they want to be bold and dramatic in their movement. So also finding out what type of person they are, even if like blonde isn't necessarily right for their skin tone and their eye color, they may want to do something dramatic where they will change their makeup and their eye, you know, they will change something to make them suit them. So I think there's so much play around with hair and your identity and your visual that you can do. You just need to know how. And you can break the rules. Once you know them, you can break the rules.

I agree. Once you start questioning them, that's where the breakthroughs happen. So I can go blonde. Potentially. Let's talk about it. You kind of, what are you, you're, what are, we're so nervous to even ask. You're blonde at the moment. Like brunette and bonnet.

This is really pretty on you. It's really pretty. It sounds like you're bringing in how people feel and how you want others to feel, which is what you talk about in the book around relationships. It's important to notice how others make you feel. Absolutely. But also how they make you feel about yourself, which you've outlined, the book. Are you seeing anybody? I am, what am I at the minute? I think I'm in a place of self

love. I don't know. I think I give a lot of love out throughout my life and I think I'm in a place where I really enjoy my own company. And the thing is, you know, when you've done the work, when you really truly know what's good for you, what attracts you, not attracted, through old beliefs and traumas, actually attracted as like the person you are now, that someone that has done the work, you realize the pool of people is so much more. So whereas before I'd be like,

oh, they're cute, let's go with it. You know, now I'm like, I think I go into sort of a new relationship, almost like a job interview. I kind of look at some of the things. And I don't get me wrong, I'm such a lover. Like, but I led too much with that. You know, I'm too,

I used to think love was a, enough. I love will fix everything. Whereas now I'm a little bit more realistic about, you know, having a life I want to protect, the things that are important to me, the things that I'm aligned with. So then, you know, it's like if you think about viewing a house, when you were younger, you know, the first house you go into, you're like, oh my God, I love this place, I want to be in forever. It's got like doors and windows. And then with time, you live in it. And you're like, oh, you know, I don't really love, there's not a lot of light. That makes me feel quite down. or, you know, I really would love, like, bigger door spaces because I'm always banging my head on that door.

So the next time you look for a house, you might see a house with, like, small windows and small door frames. Oh, that's just not, I don't, the reality of that, like, the idea is cute, the reality, it doesn't work. So I think the older and wiser you get and the more work you've done, it's a bit like house shopping. You're kind of like, you know, I know I can be attracted to that, but also know that's not good for me. So I think it just, yeah, I'm a little bit older, a little bit wiser. So I'm more selective. So is that a no? My answer is, I'm more selective.

But I'm young and thriving. I'm having a great time. You talk about how you would get married again. Do I? You said that you could get married again. Yeah, of course. I'm such a lover. Are you kidding me?

I love love. Love is like, I think to an extent it was a big weakness of mine. I think I was way too open and way too vulnerable with like my life. And I think love is a beautiful thing. And I absolutely believe in it. I definitely would get married again, for sure. Would you let him officiate your wedding? I think I've been there and done that.

I would get a routine for you. Are you a lover? I love love. Exactly. Who doesn't? Love. I love being married. Do you know what I really love right now?

I love like being a dad and my kids are old. My daughter just turned 21. My son just turned 23. I'm so incredibly proud of them and the journey they've been on and watching them come to America a young age and change their whole lives and have new possibilities

and I'm so grateful to be able to share that with them share my life, create memories with them. I'm so grateful my parents are still alive. Both my parents have had really tough upbringings and, you know, they both had cancer in the last few years and survived it. That almost made me feel really grateful to. I remember when they first got diagnosed.

I was like, wow, this is that moment you dread as a kid. Because, you know, one day you might lose your parents, but you don't really think about it until one day. And I was like, well, I guess I am older now and they're also older, you know. And so it made me feel so much more appreciative of having those memories with my family and the people around me that I love. So I think love is in many forms. And that's something that's like I really value and hold close to me. I'm very protective of as well. Well, we've loved having you. Yeah, we end all of our episodes by asking our guests for a final tip that listeners can take straight to the bank. It can be anything, a tip on investing, saving,

knowing your value. The best thing I ever did was save more than I spent, but more away than I spent. Save, save, save. And then invest. Because investing to me was like some mathematical crazy equation. I was like, where does the money go? And where is it's not real?

I can't say, you know, investment. Because what I realized is money doesn't earn money, money, money loses value over years, you know. So you could have $200 five years later. It's not worth $200. dollars it's worth 150 or one, you know, it loses value. It's so funny. And it's funny because, like, I went back to the UK last week.

And I went to my mom, I was like, I just brought a bar of chocolate mom. She's like, yeah. And I was like, I've not brought that since I was a kid in the UK. And I was like, mom, it used to be 50P. And she's like, right. And I was like, it was $6, $6. And she's like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's gone up.

And I'm like, oh, my God, I'm that person now. You know, because it's that much time has gone on. And I really see in the small things how money devalues, you know, when like inflation goes up and so investing in your money is very wise. How often do you check your accounts? Every day. I probably check it when I leave here. Really?

Yeah, have a little app. I love it. I'm like, do you know, I just like to have a little look, see what's going on. Does it give you anxiety or? Yeah,

I'm constantly convinced that I've got fraud on my account. And then I go with my business manager, I'm like, oh, no. Oh, yeah. That, yeah, that was me. Yeah, yeah. Drinking coffees that are way too expensive

and buying outfits that I'll wear ones. But they're, delicious and you look stunning so yeah but i'm always like i say i think i'm just i'm very grateful for having just the luxury of being able to you know afford lunch or for the long time i couldn't dread the bill and i dread you know how if i did spend that kind of money on something that it would affect me and i wouldn't have enough money to pay for something else and being a dad at a young age i had responsibilities i'd be very savage and make sure they had something you know and that I could supply for them.

Because like I said, when I kid, when I was a kid, my mom and dad, they did the best they could, but we didn't have anything. There wasn't food in the cupboards, you know, and I didn't, I didn't want that for my kid. I didn't want them to feel, you know, to be hungry. I remember the feeling as a kid, I was hungry. I remember feeling hungry, you know, and I,

I didn't want that. I wanted to make a difference. I wanted to change the generational pattern that would have been inherited, and I hope I've done that. I think you have.