Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin - Change Maker: Robert Rooks, CEO of REFORM Alliance, on Meek Mill and the Justice System

Episode Date: November 19, 2021

Today Nicole sits down with Robert Rooks, CEO of REFORM Alliance, an organization that aims to transform probation and parole by changing laws, systems and culture to create real pathways to work and wellbeing. Nicole and Robert talk about the current problems with the justice system, and how the financial repercussions of these problems affect us all.  To learn more about REFORM, click here: https://reformalliance.com/actions/

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Well, it doesn't. Charge for wasting our time. I will take a check. Like an old school check. You recognize her from anchoring on CNN, CNBC, and Bloomberg. The only financial expert you don't need a dictionary to understand. Nicole Lappin. As you know, here on Money Rehab, we feature changemakers, public figures making change

in every sense of the word, and along the way have been in or might still be in Money Rehab. So today, I'm talking to Robert Rucks. still be in money rehab. So today I'm talking to Robert Rooks. Robert is the CEO of Reform Alliance, an organization that aims to transform probation and parole by changing laws, systems, and culture to create real pathways to work and well-being. I admire Robert and the work he does so much. Fighting to make the justice system actually just is an issue that is near and dear to my heart. And it is something that we should all care about because our tax dollars go to these programs. And oftentimes people are surprised to find out that they're financially

supporting initiatives that they don't actually support ideologically. So to find out more, Robert, welcome to Money Rehab. Hey, good to be on. Good to be on. Before we get started, I just want to thank you just for continuing to just breathe positive energy and light into the world. I really appreciate you for all you've done. Just thank you for everything you're doing and for having me on the show. I'm just trying to keep up with you. So we kick off the show with a quick game of never have I ever. So I'll say something and you say I have or I haven't so that listeners can get to know you. OK, sounds good. So never have I ever played the lottery. Have. Never have I ever disputed a charge on a credit card. I have. Never have I ever taken a mental health day? You know what? I have not. I've taken vacation, of course, but not under a mental health day. But

I will now that you've asked. I appreciate the question. Never have I ever refinanced a home? I haven't actually. Never have I ever used an FSA or HSA? I have. Never have I ever applied for a scholarship? I have. Did you get it? I did get it. Good. Partial scholarship. Partial free money is fine. Hey, it worked. I take full free money partial too. Never have I ever applied for grant. I have many, I'm sure. Yes. Over my 20, 20 year career. Quite a few. Yes. Never have I ever bought crypto. Yes. So exciting. Crypto doing really well right now. Look at you. When did you buy into it? Do you remember? Well, about four years ago, I think, was when I first started dipping in. Yeah. So next time I see you in New York,

it's on you. Let's do it. Let's do it. With your big crypto money. Never have I ever maxed out a credit card. Yes, of course. Who hasn't? Never have I ever started a business. I have. Never have I

ever been hired as a CEO of a company. Ah, yes. That's what we call a layup here in the money rehab game. So how did you first get into criminal justice activism? Is there anyone else in your family who was an activist? Where was your inspiration? Wow, I really appreciate that question. I've been asked the first part, but not like the second part in terms of family connection.

But when I think about like my upbringing, it does go back to my parents. My father was a missionary. He was a minister. So helping people or making sure we were there for people was a huge part of my family's DNA. So I think that was ingrained in me as a child in household dinner conversation. What got me into criminal justice reform was uniquely around my experiences growing up in the 80s and 90s. All across this country in the 80s and 90s, it was tough. I saw my working class community impacted greatly by the crack epidemic. I mean, it literally, we used to have church picnics in the backyard in 1980, 1983, things changed.

Wouldn't even go outside by 1985. And the epidemic impacted my home. And so that was a drastic shift. I mean, those seven years was pretty dramatic for my family and my community. And then in the 90s, I started to see the consequences of the epidemic in terms of violence. Saw an impact as late as to increase of shootings and lost many friends, far too many friends during the early 90s. And it shaped my experiences as well, shaped my thinking about who I was in the world.

And I asked the question, why is this happening? Why is this happening to me and to people in my community? And I've been working to change things ever since I went to college with this idea in mind that we needed to change the environments that people live, give people more opportunity, give people more hope, do things that wasn't offered to my community in the 80s and 90s for the generation today. And I have a 22-year career of doing just that. You have had an amazing 22-year career. And recently, you were named CEO of Reform Alliance. Can you talk a little bit more about what reform is doing and what you're doing now in this next chapter of your career as CEO? Yeah, Nicole, thanks for the question.

It's such an honor to be the CEO of Reform Alliance. Reform Alliance is a relatively new organization. We've been around for two and a half, going on three years now. We were formed in the wake of the incarceration, the unjust incarceration of recording artist Meek Mill. Meek was on probation for pretty much his entire adult life. And he was sent to courts and sentenced to two to four years not for committing crime, but for

violating the terms of his probation. So I'm talking about popping a willy on a motorbike, right? No, literally. Literally, literally popping a willy on a motorbike. The courts found out about it and revoked him and sent him to prison for two to four years, 10 days in maximum security prison in solitary confinement. Extraordinary. It is something that many people didn't even think was happening, that someone could be sent to prison, maximum security facility, solitary confinement, not for breaking new crime,

but for breaking a rule or for a disagreement with a probation and parole officer. So that's what happened. And by the time that this happened, Meek had made some friends. You know, he was an internationally known recording artist. And he had befriended Micah Rubin, owner of Fanatics, also co-owner of 76ers. Nicole Lappin's ex-boyfriend, which is his most important title. There you go. You're hilarious. But yeah, so, you know, Mike, Robert Kraft, one of the

Patriots, Jay-Z, and others kind of pull their resources together and say, you know what, this happened to me. We're going to make sure it's not happening to millions. And that's how Reform was founded. So our goal as an organization is to transform the probation and parole system to ensure that probation and parole is a springboard to success and connection to community, not a trap door to failure like it was for me. Yeah, it's so, so upsetting. Can you explain, though, with this issue for Meek, how parole works for people who don't know and some of the issues that you guys are now actively trying to change? around the front end of their sentence. So someone may have been charged and sentenced to, let's say, you know, six months in jail and then two years on probation or three years on probation. That's kind of more what's happening.

But I just wanted to give that example because that often what happens on the front end sentence. And then parole is after someone has spent time in prison that they'll be paroled back in the community. So they have supervision or oversight as they're being sent back home. But supervision is part of kind of what the jobs of both are probation officers and parole officers. that emerge in the meek situation and that's happening to people all across the country is that there are these stipulations that are given to people when they go on probation and parole, right? These kind of rules that people have to follow. Now, of course, you know, if

it's in relation to the crime, it makes sense, right? But the rules are arbitrary, like totally arbitrary. So someone may have committed a crime that has something to do with their addiction, right? They'll have a stipulation that says they can't go to the next county over without permission. And I don't know how that sounds to your listeners, but think about it this way. These are people with families, with kids. Kids have soccer games and baseball games, you know, sometimes in the county, sometimes outside the county. And then, you know, when, and I get these calls all the time, that when someone has to travel outside of a designated area, they often submit for approval regarding the travel and they don't hear anything back. So now what do you do, right? You're a parent, your kid's playing a game and the county over, you submit travel, you don't hear

anything back. Do you go? Do you not go? So all of these things happen and it's connected to the stipulations. Our view is this. Listen, if someone's on probation parole, they should have accountability for sure. Accountability is important. But have the stipulation tied to the offense. Have the stipulation tied to connecting the person back to society. So get a job. If you get a job, maybe you shouldn't have to have the same travel restriction or like maybe you shouldn't have to jump over the same amount of hoops.

Maybe you shouldn't have to check in with your probation officer every single day. And then oftentimes people, of course, often break breakthroughs or break the stipulations for many number of reasons. They shouldn't go back to prison. That's what's happening. It's like, you know, you travel outside of county lines. Your probation officer, your parole officer hears about it. They're sending people back to prison. Every four minutes in this country, someone is sent back to prison, not for a new crime, but for a technical violation or breaking the rule or something like that. And so that's the we need to change that. Hold on to your wallets, boys and

girls. Money rehab will be right back. Now for some more money rehab. So you're not saying don't punish folks who do bad things. You're saying have justice, just make it just. I'm saying accountability matters, right? But after someone is held accountable, right, that we should be helping people reintegrate back in society. The key piece of that, Nicole, is that it actually helps public safety, right? It helps public safety to get people jobs. It helps public safety to get people treatment or addiction help, help with addiction. It helps public safety to get people mental health support that they need. Our system should be helping facilitate people's health as opposed to, you know, playing gotcha with them. You send them back to prison where there's no help.

ain't got you with them up, you send them back to prison where there's no help. Of course, because this otherwise becomes a endless system that you can't get out of. I mean, this is an issue that I've cared about for a long time. It's been near and dear to my heart. I went to Northwestern and worked for the Center for Wrongful Convictions, an innocence project there that helped create a moratorium on executions in the state of Illinois. And I didn't know at the time because I was a student and I didn't think I would ever go into financial journalism how linked criminal justice is with our finances and with the economy at large. So it's inextricably linked for sure. How does parole, as it stands right now, obstruct somebody's ability to work? So basically, it starts with the felony offense, right? Most people that come through the justice system end up getting a felony.

Once you get a felony, you then are on the outskirts of the labor market. you then are on the outskirts of the labor market. There are a number of jobs that won't even look at your application if they see that you received a felony. And then when you do get a job, right? What we have found out is that people with felonies, people on probation, people on parole, don't move up in their employment. They actually just stay the same

in terms of their income and employment status in terms of getting a raise and things like that. So it renders you to a form of second-class citizenship in this country. And it's just not right. Once you pay your debt to society, your debt should be paid. You should be allowed to work and provide for your family,

but you can't do that right now with the felony offense. And it's definitely hard to do when you're on probation and parole. Why does it cost so much to keep people, the vast majority of whom were previously serving terms for nonviolent offenses, on parole or probation? I mean, how much does it cost taxpayers? How much does it cost taxpayers? $2.8 billion a year is spent on people going back to prison for technical revocations. Again, not new crimes, right? We're talking about people that break these stipulations or break these rules. They end up being sent back to prison, to jail, costing taxpayers $2.8 billion a year.

What could we do with that, right? So many things. Talk about money we have, right? The country needs the money we have, right? We need to think about ways to invest our dollars better. And there's a public safety benefit for this. If we invest more in schools, we invest more in mental health and substance abuse support and treatment for people. We invest more in reentry programs. Like, we know what we need, right? I mean, folks like me that's been in this field for 22, 23 years, we see what works, right?

You know, and, you know, there are programs out there that hire people that were formerly involved in gangs. There are now kind of leaders in their community and they're going door to door to help connect people to services. We know what works. We need to invest in those things, but we are in this endless cycle of investing in a system that hasn't proven to work

and we're not getting the public safety benefit for it. For today's tip, you can take straight to the bank. If you've been inspired by Robert's work and want to learn more or do more, head to reformalliance.com slash actions. I also put the link in the show notes. Money Rehab is a production of iHeartRadio. I'm your host, Nicole Lappin. Our producers are Morgan Lavoie and Mike Coscarelli. Executive producers are Nikki Etor and Will Pearson.

Our mascots are Penny and Mimsy. Huge thanks to OG Money Rehab team Michelle Lanz for her development work, Catherine Law for her production and writing magic, and Brandon Dickert for his editing, engineering, and sound design. And as always, thanks to you for finally investing in yourself so that you can get it together and get it all.