Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin - Confessions Of a Real Shopaholic

Episode Date: August 29, 2023

In this episode, Nicole talks to Avis Cardella: writer, author and recovering shopping addict. Avis describes how she fell into the downward spiral of daily shopping, and more importantly: how consumerism had become a coping mechanism. Forget the movies— this is a raw picture of what shopping addiction really looks like.  If you or someone you know needs help managing debt, check out Debtors Anonymous: https://debtorsanonymous.org/  Want to get a jump start on healthy money habits? Go to moneyassistant.com and meet Magnifi, your AI money assistant, designed to help you make a plan for your financial goals. Want one-on-one money coaching from Nicole? Book a meeting with her here: intro.co/moneynewsnetwork 

One of the most stressful periods of my life was when I was in credit card debt. I got to a point where I just knew that I had to get it under control for my financial future and also for my mental health. We've all hit a point where we've realized it was time to make some serious money moves. So take control of your finances by using a Chime checking account with features like no maintenance fees, fee-free overdraft up to $200, or getting paid up to two days early with direct deposit. Learn more at Chime.com slash MNN. When you check out Chime, you'll see that you can overdraft up to $200 with no fees. If you're an OG listener, you know about my infamous $35 overdraft fee that

I got from buying a $7 latte and how I am still very fired up about it. If I had Chime back then, that wouldn't even be a story. Make your fall finances a little greener by working toward your financial goals with Chime. Open your account in just two minutes at Chime.com slash MNN. That's Chime.com slash MNN. Chime. Feels like progress. Banking services and debit card provided by the Bancorp Bank N.A. or Stride Bank N.A. Members FDIC. SpotMe eligibility requirements and overdraft limits apply. Boosts are available to eligible Chime members enrolled in SpotMe and are subject to monthly limits. Terms and conditions apply. Go to Chime.com slash disclosures for details.

Hey guys, are you ready for some money rehab? Wall Street has been completely upended by an unlikely player game stop and should i have a 401k because you don't do it no i know you think the whole world revolves around you and your money well it doesn't charge for wasting our time i will take a check you recognize her from anchoring on CNN, CNBC, and Bloomberg. The only financial expert you don't need a dictionary to understand. Nicole Lappin.

For many folks, the movie Confessions of a Shopaholic was our first introduction to shopping addiction. Do you remember this movie? It came out in 2009-ish with Isla Fisher as this bubbly shopping addict in all pink. If you're pretty comfortable with your shopping habits, you may have wondered, is this what compulsive shopping is really like? But if you've struggled with keeping your shopping in check, you'll know that this is not an accurate picture of shopping addiction. This is why I wanted to talk to Avis Cardella. She's an author and a recovering shopping addict. I wanted to take an unfiltered look at what shopping addiction really looks like. Avis, welcome to Money Rehab.

Thank you. It's nice to be here. It's nice to have you here. And in a lot of our interviews, especially the ones with confessions, we tend to start at the beginning of someone's story. That's typically where you start. But I think it actually might be best to kind of start in the middle, maybe jump backwards, maybe then go forward. So strap in, if you don't mind, the period of your life where you say you were addicted to shopping. Can you tell me what that time in your life looked like and how the compulsion manifested? how the compulsion manifested? Yes. As I wrote in my book, Spent, Memoirs of a Shopping Addict, the first moment that I knew something was wrong, I called the Cossabella incident,

which sounds very exotic, but it's not really. It was- Like the underwear? Yes, exactly. Exactly. So you know it. It was in Barneys in New York. And I was shopping. And as I did every day at that time, this was in the 90s, mid 90s. And I had a kind of out of body experience shopping, I was buying this several pairs of Casaossabella underwear and various other things. And it felt almost like, like I said, like an out-of-body experience, like something physical was happening to me. And I think at that time I realized that something was wrong. I was shopping to escape from other things, from emotions. And that was for me a first indication of that my shopping wasn't normal. It took a long time to get past that, but that was the first moment. It was a strange and revelatory moment for me. Can you describe a little bit more about what that's like?

Was it a dissociation? Like, did you feel like you weren't yourself? Or did you sort of like, have a greater perspective and kind of looking down on you and seeing what you were doing and feeling what, ashamed? Yes, the looking down on me, kind of when you feel almost like you come out of yourself and you can see yourself from afar. And it was a bit like that. And I was asking myself why I was buying. And it was almost an exhilaration. It was this feeling of being excited by the purchase. And that was, for me, kind of a sign that something was strange because I enjoyed shopping. I had always enjoyed shopping, enjoyed getting things, having things, enjoying the things I purchased.

But this was different. enjoying the things I purchased. But this was different. And it was like a physically exhilarating experience, a little bit stepping back from myself and seeing myself go through this act. And then afterwards, I felt quite deflated. I asked myself, why did you do that? What was that all about? Kind of questioning everything about it. What was it about? Why did you feel that way? And what was that experience? What was that exhilaration?

And then afterwards, I left the store and almost felt like I wanted to throw everything in a trash can. So that was a first experience for me. And that was when I was probably midway into this shopping experience. But it was the first time it had seemed peculiar to me. And it's first time it felt like something was wrong. And that's when I went on from there with my life and my experiences and then eventually dealing with it. But that was the first. Yeah. So it sounds like extreme highs, extreme lows. Like a lot of addictions.

Yeah. I'm really interested. I'm really thankful that you're opening up so honestly about this because I think it's something that many people struggle with and don't talk about as openly and honestly. So thank you. How often were you shopping? You said every day? Yes. Every day for about 15 years. Wow. At the same time? I'm sorry I'm laughing. Every day? Was it a routine? Did you just get up and go to Barney's or somewhere similar? No. I was working as a journalist in New York. I was a fashion journalist and then lifestyle art photography journalist, but

it was the lifestyle of New York. And perhaps this is the insidious part of it because it felt perfectly normal. You lived in New York City and you went about your job or whatever you were doing and you always stopped into some place to shop. It might've been Barney's. It might've just been a bodega. It might've just been a tiny boutique somewhere and you buy next to nothing, but it was shopping every day. It was going into a shop

with the purpose of finding something to acquire, to purchase, and to bring home every day. But do you define that as clothing and accessories or just anything? Anything you could possibly get your hands on? Well, for me, it was clothing, accessories, home, home things, but mostly clothing, cosmetics uh things like that did the shopping uh compromise your ability to pay rent or other essentials absolutely well i started to to have to uh juggle my credit cards and who i was going to pay off, which ones I would pay off and the others not pay off. And then there were late fees and pay your rent a month late. And it was horrible. It

was really, it was not me. Because as I write in my book, when I was younger, I was very, very serious about money, about finances. I used to keep a spreadsheet of how much money I was making and what I was spending. I was somebody who was very, very conscious of these things. And it felt terrible for me to be that kind of person. So that for me was something really bad. It was something I did not like about myself, but it was something that I couldn't help in the instant. I kept shopping. And I was, like I said, falling back on credit card payments, paying rent late, scraping together money here and there. I was managing to work and make some money, but it was getting more and more difficult to keep up. And at that point, did you go into debt? Were you in a revolving debt cycle? And at that point, did you go into debt? Were you in a revolving debt cycle?

I was in debt. It was an enormous debt. I was in a credit card debt. And consequently, when I decided to change my habits, I went into a credit counseling service, which is a service that consolidates all your credit cards, your payments, and works with you to figure out what your monthly installments can be. And that was something that was actually quite humiliating for me. It was the best thing for me to do. I felt humiliated by it because, as I said, I was always somebody who was very conscientious of my finances and what I was earning and what I was spending.

But it was something that helped me ultimately. It helped me in that I managed to get my credit cards paid off and it was a program. And the thing with the program is if you didn't stick with the program and pay what you said you were supposed to pay every month, you would be kicked out. So there was the threat of that there was then that, okay, you'll be kicked out of the program, and you'll be back where you started. So I did not want that. And I set out to make sure that I address the problem. Addressing the problem wasn't just the financial, it was the emotional also with the shopping addiction. As with most addictions, there's an emotional aspect to it too. And that I had to deal with as well.

I found the person I spoke with very kind and very understanding and someone who was willing to speak to me. You know, when you have credit card debt and you have people calling you to collect their debt, they're not very often very nice. They're often very aggressive. And anybody who's in any kind of debt knows this. And to find someone who was willing to speak to me about what my debt was and put me on this program who spoke to me kindly, that was something that was necessary for me at the time. And that's what happened. I called them and it was credit card consolidation that we did. Went through what my monthly expenses, how much I would need to pay my

expenses, and then how much I could pay for my credit cards every month. Hold on to your wallets, boys and girls. Money Rehab will be right back. One of the most stressful periods of my life was when I was in credit card debt. I got to a point where I just knew that I had to get it under control for my financial future and also for my mental health. We've all hit a point where we've realized it was time to make some serious money moves. So take control of your finances by using a time checking account with features like no maintenance fees, fee-free overdraft up to $200, or getting paid up to two days early with direct deposit. Learn more at Chime.com slash MNN. When you check out Chime, you'll see that you can overdraft up to

$200 with no fees. If you're an OG listener, you know about my infamous $35 overdraft fee that I got from buying a $7 latte and how I am still very fired up about it. If I had Chime back then, that wouldn't even be a story. Make your fall finances a little greener by working toward your financial goals with Chime. Open your account in just two minutes at Chime.com slash MNN. That's Chime.com slash MNN. Chime feels like progress. Banking services and debit card provided by the Bancorp Bank N.A. or Stride Bank N.A. Members FDIC. Spot me eligibility requirements and overdraft limits apply.

Boosts are available to eligible Chime members enrolled in Spot me and are subject to monthly limits. Terms and conditions apply. Go to Chime.com slash disclosures for details. Now for some more money rehab. Can we jump back now into the emotional part you talk about in your book too, that some of your shopping came as a way to cope with your mother's death? Can you talk about that? Yeah. What I realized is that was the big trigger for me. I was somebody who, I know I was somebody who was always interested in fashion and interested in

clothing and interested in acquiring things and presenting a certain image that was something that that was there from the beginning with me I love to read magazines as a teenager I was modeling for a short while and then I went into fashion journalism and was in that world. And that world is all about presentation, your appearance, and very much about that. And when my mother died, I think I looked to shopping as a comfort zone and as something to do to build a sense of myself, because my sense of myself seemed to have been kind of demolished and just destroyed.

And I built this, I built this almost shell of Avis. And it's quite fascinating when I think about it now, in the distance of time and in retrospect, I was building a shell of myself, the shell that it's like a protective shell. And I was protecting myself with this image that I built around me and buying all these things

and presenting this persona. And at some point I couldn't keep it up. It just had nowhere else to go. It was a shell. It was an empty part inside and that was um you know it was like one of those easter eggs that you crack open and there's nothing inside it's like the chocolate egg that's hollow inside so and it was that hollowness inside that eventually got to me i think and that's um and that that's i think for a lot of shopping addicts there's that component.

There was someone who I came in contact with after when I when I wrote this book. Her name is April Benson. And unfortunately, she's no longer of this world. But she was very helpful with me. She was a counselor who counseled people who were in in debt for shopping and who had this addiction. And she presented it that way, that many of these people who get into compulsive shopping, they have some trauma, they have some emotional component. And again, this is like a lot of addictions, I believe. And she spoke to me about it afterwards when I was writing the book.

And I saw myself very much in that profile. That was someone who felt traumatized by something and was building a protective zone with the shopping. There might have been a therapist around who could have helped me. around who could have helped me. But at the time, I wasn't completely aware that I could find a therapist who would take this seriously. Because still, we're talking about a time when this shopping addiction was kind of this funny, fuzzy area. It wasn't quite accepted the way it is today as, if I can say, a legitimate addiction. So I didn't go to therapy. I started doing my own therapy and dealing with my family issues and my relationship issues and my own issues and finding a way to figure out what was wrong emotionally.

I would have loved to have gone to a therapist, probably couldn't have afforded it. So as you say, but now today, I think there are more therapists who deal with this. At the time, it wasn't evident at the time. So you kind of just DIY'd it. You got some books or books. Yeah. Yes. I was reading up on emotional traumas and grief and coping with grief. I confronted my

father about family issues and said, I have to do this and went back to my family and tried to heal relationships in my family. And it was all, it was all very long and difficult, but it was, it was something that I knew I had to do. And, and it was a process. It was like, like the, the long-term credit counseling. It was a process. Yeah. During one of my trauma therapies, at some point, I heard a quote that was like, change happens when the discomfort of the present outweighs the fear of the unknown. And I don't know if that resonates with you, but it sounds like you reach a tipping point where you just couldn't continue any longer with status quo. Yes. I like that quote because that sums it up pretty much. I got to a point where I felt that I couldn't... I had opportunities

to fall back into the same pattern and I stopped myself from doing that. And it was because I knew if I fell back into the same pattern, I would never advance from that. So that, yeah, that, that the fear of the unknown was, was certainly there. How do I cope with my grief? How do I cope with who I've become or who I, I used to be? And I am no longer because I built the shell around me. All of those things. So the pain of staying in that present was certainly, it was prevalent. Overwhelming, I'm sure. Yes, it was very strong.

And I had to make that leap, take that step. And it sounds like some of those lures continued. You stayed in New York City. You walked by Barney's, I'm assuming. So the temptation was real. How did you deal with the compulsion as you need to shop and acquire things in your day-to-day life? What's the relationship now? Do you feel like you overcorrected for a point and then found a balance? I think I did overcorrect. I think I did. I think I overcorrected to the point where I became fearful of shopping. I became fearful of falling into the abyss again. falling into the abyss again.

And I really almost had a visceral reaction to going into a shop and buying things because I thought, oh, my God, it's going to happen again and I'm going to be overwhelmed and I'm going to want to buy everything. And so there was an overcorrection. And then eventually I found my balance. There was an overcorrection. And then eventually I found my balance. But I can remember that time in New York feeling very, approaching it with great difficulty because New York is extremely tempting when it comes to shopping. It's everywhere.

You can't walk out the door without being confronted with it. So it was for a few years there. It was very difficult. And I had some close friends who were able to shop. They were certainly not in the same position as me, but I didn't want to tell them, you know, about my problems. So I had a couple of incidents where I went out with friends that I actually, you know, would be in a shop and I bought, I remember specifically, I bought a pair of Chanel sunglasses that I shouldn't have bought. And I remember that so specifically because I wanted to keep up appearances. There was that moment and I knew I shouldn't have done it. And I did. And that's the insidious side of things

when you live in New York and when you have this, like other people who have addiction, sometimes they try to keep it hidden and they don't want to share it. And so they try to keep up that. Okay, so I was out shopping with a friend and she bought something and I bought my Chanel sunglasses. And that will always stick in my mind because I knew that was a bad move. But there was that temptation and there was that moment of wanting to still say, oh, yeah, I'm like everybody else. I can still shop the way I used to. But I couldn't and I didn't. And then I got back to normal life eventually. And now I shop like a normal person, whatever that is. What would you say to those listening who may think they have a problem?

Are there red flags to look out for? Yeah, there are red flags. There was this test that you could take, and I guess it still applies. It was a simple questionnaire test. It was six questions, I believe. And it goes a bit like, do you get a rush from shopping? Do you buy things you don't need? Do you hide your purchases?

Do you use money that should be spent on bills to make other unnecessary purchases? Do you feel guilt, shame, or regret about your spending? And these questions, I guess, encompass what's considered abnormal shopping. For today's tip, you can take straight to the bank. If you know someone who has a shopping addiction or is struggling with debt, please check out the resources in the show notes. Money Rehab is a production of iHeartRadio. I'm your host, Nicole Lappin. Our producers are Morgan Lavoie and Mike Coscarelli. Executive producers are Nikki

Etor and Will Pearson. Our mascots are Penny and Mimsy. Huge thanks to OG Money Rehab team Michelle Lanz for her development work, Catherine Law for her production and writing magic, and Brandon Dickert for his editing, engineering, and sound design. And as always, thanks to you for finally investing in yourself so that you can get it together and get it all.