Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin - Does this Job Make Me Look Fat?

Episode Date: August 30, 2022

Yes— in 2022, we still face weight discrimination at work. In fact, one study suggestions that for every 6 pounds an average American woman gains, her hourly pay drops 2%. To talk about weight bias in the workplace, Nicole is joined by Jessamyn Stanley— body positivity activist and entrepreneur. To learn more about Jessamyn, you can find her here: https://www.instagram.com/mynameisjessamyn/ For tips on how to talk to your HR department about bias-free performance reviews, read this: https://www.hrdconnect.com/2019/09/30/10-performance-review-biases-and-how-to-avoid-them/

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Well, it doesn't. Charge for wasting our time. I will take a check. Like an old school check. You recognize her from anchoring on CNN, CNBC, and Bloomberg. The only financial expert you don't need a dictionary to understand. Nicole Lappin. We know that stereotypes can have harmful effects in the workplace.

On the show, we've talked before about how gender stereotypes contribute to the vicious cycle of the gender wage gap. Today, we're going to be focusing on another group of stereotypes that affect workers, weight bias. Research has found that there are pervasive stereotypes that associate higher BMI, a measure of body fat, with laziness. And that perception of laziness carries over to employers' perception of employees. Today, I'm going to be digging more into that research and discussing solutions with Jessamyn Stanley, who, among many other talents and trades, is a body positivity activist. Let's get into it. Well, Jessamyn, I'm so excited to say welcome to Money Rehab. Thank you so much for having me.

You are a woman of many talents as well. You are a yoga teacher, a writer, an entrepreneur. Let me know if I'm missing anything. You're many, many things and a body positivity advocate. Today, we're going to double click on the last accolade of that lovely list. And I do hope you'll correct me if I use any non-preferred language here because I come from like the news world where there is not a lot of education on body positivity. We are all learning together. I feel like that goes, that's a two-way street. So please, yes. Fabulous. We got this. I was reading about your work and I did see some literature in this field referred to as anti-fat bias. So I would love to start there if we can. Can you explain to folks who might not be familiar

with this bias, even though they've maybe experienced it themselves, but just didn't know what to call it? Like how this bias exists, where it's most prevalent, anything you can share about its origins and how it affects all of us now. Totally. I mean, I think that the best way to summarize anti-fat bias is that as a society, we tend to act as though being fat is like the worst thing that could happen to anybody. And this is really like confirmed by the medical industrial complex and by obesity statistics and scare tactics that have been used for decades really to control the way that we buy things actually. It has a lot to do with supporting diet culture. And there are a lot of people that profit from diet culture on the topic of money. So fat phobia is something that has become so prevalent and so normalized that like we

don't even question it. You know, like, like I think honestly, people are more afraid to be called fat than they are to be called like stupid or ugly. Like the idea of what it means to be fat is very scary to people. And so, so much, I think of fat politics, um, really so much of fat acceptance is about saying that like being fat is not a bad thing. It doesn't mean anything negative about who you are as a human being, that you're perfect exactly as you are. And that if you accept your body as it is today, then you'll be able to do literally anything that you want to do. And that it's possible to stand in opposition to what society tells you you're supposed to do.

Because you're saying that that takes up so much space in your mind if you're focused on it, right? Right. And I think that all of us are really like, I think that actually like what ends up happening is that people are like afraid to even say the word fat. Like they're afraid, afraid to like even be, it's like, oh, this is a bad word. This is dangerous. And like, I think that as a fat person, obviously this is something that I end up thinking about a lot, but I think that like, it's not, it's a size free issue. Like it's something that everybody is kind of consumed by. And I remember so vividly listening to an interview with a body positivity expert who told the interviewer that he should refer to her as fat.

And I remember the interviewer being like, what, what, what? And pushing back, saying that he thought that the preferred term was overweight. So there's a lot there with the vocabulary here. She corrected him. She said overweight implied that there was some perfect weight that she should be that she failed to reach. So what is the preferred language here? Or do we even need a preferred language? Why do we need to talk about people's weight at all? Well, you know, OK, so there's a lot here, right? So I think that in terms of preferred language, like it's really just whatever makes you comfortable.

Like I think that if you don't feel comfortable using the word fat, don't use the word fat. But I think that for me as a fat person, it's been really important to call myself fat and to own that identity. Because I think that what ends up happening is that there's so much fear around the word that you will use literally any other word. You'll be like curvy, plus size, rotund, literally anything to avoid saying fat. And like, I just am not trying

to have weapons pointed at me that are words. So my thing is like, own the word, take it, live in it, don't be afraid of it. But like, that's a personal choice, you know? But, you know, there's this really interesting question at the end of what you said about, you know, should we even be worried about this at all? Like, should we even be thinking about our bodies at all? Like, can we get to a place where, why, who cares? People, you're fat, you're not fat, it doesn't matter. And this is really where the body neutrality movement came from. And this is something that I've always thought is really interesting, the idea of considering your body

as neutral. You just say, I'm not going to worry about what my body looks like at all. And I'm going to move forward from that place. But I kind of feel like it's impossible to be neutral about your body. Like our bodies are radical political beings. We exist at the epicenter of many different intersections and we're all very complex and it's happening on purpose so that we can experience life through these intersections. And it's important, in my opinion, to really stand in that and let that be, let yourself be complicated and messy and to feel all the hard feelings about it and to go forward from that place. Hold on to your wallets, boys and girls. Money Rehab will be right back. Now for some more Money Rehab. And on this show, we focus on the intersection between money and

how topics like this impact our daily lives. So I'd love to unpack the economic portion of this. You alluded to it. And where does business and economics fuel this? All of everything about fat phobia, I think ultimately is about money, because there's a push really to like, get us all to, well, in a macro sense, there's a push for us to all think the same thing in general, or to like like look to each other for the right answers. So that's the first piece of it. And fat phobia is really reinforced by that as a standard. But also diet culture and fitness culture and every anybody who's saying like, if you look like this, you'll be happier. Or like, if you do this thing, it'll be great. All of that is totally underscored by fat phobia.

It really, up to this point, has needed fat phobia in order to thrive. But what's interesting to me, and this is kind of getting down to more microeconomics of it, it's actually not that impactful. Fat phobia really is not a great motivator for people to buy things and to really want to work out even. If you think about the way that fitness culture exists, it's very exclusionary so that only certain people feel like it's for them. But when we expand the gaze and we take fat phobia out of the equation and we look at what the fitness industry and what the wellness industry can accomplish, there's a much wider pool of people that are open to the tools and resources. So it's a really interesting thing, I think, how the medical industrial complex has really

profited off of fat phobia and different parts of the wellness industry. But there is also this really interesting opportunity when we allow body acceptance and body positivity and body neutrality and radical self-acceptance to enter the ring. I think it expands what can happen economically. And also in the workplace. So I think another part of the shaded part of our Venn diagram of expertise exists where there's weight bias in the workplace. I'm sure you saw this as recently as March of this year, Bloomberg did an article about this. And here's a quote I found really jarring, quote, people who are fat face bias in every corner of life. They are more likely to be bullied in school, stigmatized by doctors, and convicted of crimes by juries.

People who are overweight are hired less, promoted less, and paid less. One study suggests that for every six pounds an average American woman gains, her hourly pay drops 2%. I believe that. Absolutely. So this is a serious topic in the workplace, very important one to address and bring to the forefront. Can you share some stories about weight bias in the workplace that you've experienced or you've heard through your advocacy? Yeah. I mean, this is an extremely normalized practice. Like, and what you said about the stigma existing in when you go to the doctor, that really stood out for me. That is something that I hear a lot of people talk about in my professional community and my personal community. Certainly deep, deep weight bias in the job

search. A lot of people finding it difficult to get to that next step of a job search. All I can think is like, what can we do as a people to move past this? Like, how can we get to a place where there's not just rampant stereotyping and stigmatizing and a place where we're not even harvesting the best talent? We're not offering the right opportunities. And I think it comes down to each of us individually noting the ways that we are a part of the system, the ways that we uphold fat phobia, and that it's not just about what we say to other people. There's not like a checklist of things that we need to think about. Like, oh, when you're looking at this person, it's like, no, look at yourself. How do you view yourself? And it's like, no, look at yourself. How do you view yourself?

How do you, do you body shame yourself? Do you body shame the people that are closest to you? And start, use that as the guide point for how to move forward. Because it is so normalized. And it's something that I think people are really afraid to even acknowledge, to just to really sit with. And it has to start on that personal level first. I think everything starts on a personal level for sure. Legislation could also potentially help. I've read about a movement for more legislative repercussions around weight

discrimination. Michigan is the only state that bans discrimination based on weight, and that's clearly actually made an impact to the folks living there. The legal protection allowed a woman to sue her employer coach who promoted her when she was petite and then fired her when she wasn't and fired her after the company pressured her to do all these crazy things, take weight loss hormones, get bariatric surgery, eat more lean cuisines. I don't know what decade this was. Totally, literally. I've been reading a lot about how there are these advocacy groups, right, to try to get this legal protection, though, in more states.

Do you think that these would be effective measures in reducing bias? Definitely, definitely, definitely. But I mean, there's only so much that we can really hinge on legislation as far as I'm concerned. And I think that it is really important to have standards set in the workplace so that it can become more normalized. I think that that personal work is what will show up more often than not, even in the workplace, that until there is federal legislation and even if there is federal legislation for it to be extensive enough to really, I mean, we see it all the time with, with legislation for other, other movements. I'm thinking specifically of trans rights and the difficulty that is found in really getting comprehensive legislation that is actually protecting those who need it. And I think that it's, there comes a point where we have to stop

relying on the system to fix it, that we have to fix ourselves. Amen. Let's talk about the people who have internalized this bias. Can you share some tips for them on body positivity? You know, there's a lot that I think we don't recognize about how we shame ourselves and how we tell ourselves like, I'm not good enough. This isn't right. I should look like this other person

or this is what I should be doing. To a point where like, we don't even acknowledge it or know that it's happening because we fundamentally believe that we're not good enough. So to me, the first thing to do is to really start to acknowledge that the way that other people see you isn't really that important. Like it's not really, It can't be the guiding force. And I thought that the way to frame it is to say, how do I look versus how do I feel? So if you're asking yourself, how do I feel instead of asking, how do I look? How do I look is always like, what is somebody else going to think of this? But if you say, how do I feel? You're connecting to something that you know to be true. And if you feel good, you look good, period. That's the answer to that question.

And so if you can sit with that knowing and not need to look to somebody else, it can make all the difference in the world. And being willing to question your anti-fat bias when it comes up, anti-fat bias, when you are willing to acknowledge your fat phobia when it comes up, as it will, as, I'm like, that is all of us. I feel like, and it's every day. I have been focusing on body acceptance and seeing myself fully for many years at this point. And it's something that just every day is a new day. Every day is an opportunity to, you know, deal with the same baggage and to notice that it's there and acknowledge it fully and wholly and,

and to start again. And so I think that no matter how long you, it's not like 21 days to body acceptance and then you're good forever. It's like, it's just a lifelong journey. And accepting that, I think, is the hardest part and the best part. For today's tip, you can take straight to the bank. Like Jessamyn says, we don't need to wait for legislation in order to make our workplaces more equitable. If you or a colleague is experiencing weight bias, you should talk to your HR department. That's what HR is there for. And if you don't have an HR department, talk to your manager or supervisor. There are many ways your company can incorporate bias-free assessments that ensure

you're evaluated for your work and your work alone. Check out the links in the show notes for tips on how to make that conversation with your HR department or manager more productive and smooth. Money Rehab is a production of iHeartRadio. I'm your host, Nicole Lappin. Our producers are Morgan Lavoie and Mike Coscarelli. Executive producers are Nikki Etor and Will Pearson. Our mascots are Penny and Mimsy. Huge thanks to OG Money Rehab team, Michelle Lanz for her development work, Catherine Law for her production and writing magic, and Brandon Dickert for his editing,

engineering, and sound design. And as always, thanks to you for finally investing in yourself so that you can get it together and get it all.