Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin - From Losing Dream Jobs to Booking First-Class Flights: Reinventing Success with Daryn Kagan and The Miles Husband

Episode Date: November 24, 2025

Today Nicole sits down with celebrated journalist Daryn Kagan and her husband, Trent Swanson—though around here, we call him The Miles Husband. Daryn reflects on the highs of her career as a news anchor and what it felt like when CNN didn’t renew her contract. She shares how she navigated that turning point, what it taught her about financial security, and how she redefined success. Daryn also gives her strategy for creating the role you want and shares a message for anyone still waiting on their dream career, relationship, or family. Then, Trent breaks down how a little curiosity about credit card points turned into a full-on travel hacking strategy that now has the couple flying around the world in luxury for next to nothing... and how you can, too! Listen to Daryn’s episode Call Me Friend, and start with the episode where Daryn interviews Nicole Check out more from The Miles Husband

Here's one piece of advice that I've given for years. Build an emergency fund. Aim to stash away enough to cover at least three months of expenses in case your income suddenly drops. Sounds simple, right? But let's be honest, it's not. Saving even one month's worth of living costs can feel impossible. Just when you're making progress, that check engine light blinks on and derails your plans. Life already throws enough curveballs. You don't need your bank adding to the chaos. That's why it's so important to choose one that makes.

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banking services and debit card provided by the Bankor Bank NA or Stride Bank NA. Members FDIC. Spot Me eligibility requirements and overdraft limits apply. Timing depends on submission of payment file. Fees apply at out of network ATMs. Bank ranking and number of ATMs, according to US News and World Report 2023. Chime checking account required. I live in L.A. now, but lately I have been craving the seasons. Snow, hot cocoa, the whole thing. I don't even ski, but I have been daydreaming about working remotely from somewhere really cozy on the East Coast like a cute little ski town for a little bit. And whenever I know I'm going to be gone for a while, I always remind myself that my home can actually be working for me while I'm away because I host

my space on Airbnb. It is one of the easiest ways to earn passive income from something you already have and that extra income feels particularly helpful this time of year as we approach the holidays. A lot of my friends say that sounds amazing, but where do you find the time to manage guests and bookings? And that's when I tell them about Airbnb. Airbnb's co-host network. Through Airbnb, you can find a local co-host who can help you set up your listing, handle reservations, communicate with guests, provide on-site support, even help with design and styling. I like to give a personal touch when I'm hosting on Airbnb, so I make a list of my favorite restaurants in the area, and I handwrite a note welcoming my guests to the property.

My guests love it, but I also know that some of those little personal touches can take a lot of extra time. So this is the exact kind of thing that you would want your co-host to help you with. Whether you're traveling for work or chasing the snow or escaping it, or you've got a second place that just sits there empty more often than you'd like, your home doesn't have to just sit there. You can make extra money from it without taking on extra work. Find a co-host at Airbnb.com slash host. Here's one piece of advice that I've given for years. Build an emergency fund. Aim to stash away enough to cover at least three months of expenses in case your incomes suddenly drops. Sounds simple, right? But let's be honest, it's not. Saving even one month's worth

of living costs can feel impossible. Just when you're making progress, that check engine light blinks on and derails your plans. Life already throws enough curveballs. You don't need your bank adding to the chaos. That's why it's so important to choose one that makes savings easy and doesn't nibble away at your hard-earned money with ridiculous fees. Chime understands that every dollar counts. That's why when you set up direct deposit three, Chime, you get access to fee-free features like free overdraft coverage, getting paid up to two days early with direct deposit and more. With qualifying direct deposits, you're eligible for free overdraft up to $200 on debit card purchases and cash withdrawals. To date, Chime has spotted members

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Chim checking account required. I'm Nicole Lappin, the only financial expert you don't need a dictionary to understand. It's time for some money rehab. Today's episode is a double-header with a power couple. you're going to love. In the first part of the conversation, I'm talking to the one, the only, Darren Kagan. And let me tell you, if teenage Nicole had a vision board, this woman's face would have been front and center. Before the world of social media and influencers, Darren was a trailblazing journalist covering some of the biggest stories of our time,

from the Gulf War to 9-11 as a lead anchor at CNN. I never, ever even dreamed that our worlds would intersect, but they did, and we tell that story today. Darren was not only working my dream job at CNN, it was her dream job, too. But as you'll hear in this episode, even dream jobs can come to an end. Darren opens up about how she found out her contract at CNN wasn't renewing and the questions that she will never have the answers to. She told me what came next and how she redefined success on her own terms. If you have ever felt like your career took a left turn that you did not see coming, this conversation is one you need to hear. After the break, you'll hear from Darren's husband, Trent Swanson, aka Miles' husband.

What started out as a small experiment to earn two free flights to Miami, turned into jet setting across the globe in first class. Yes, I have seen the receipts. Emirates, Japan, champagne in the sky, all for literally $5. Trent breaks down exactly how they hacked the travel points game and they even help my executive producer Morgan plan her honeymoon to Japan. So from losing your dream job to living your dream life, this episode is full of hard-earned wisdom, inspiration, and some seriously game-changing money tip.

Darren Kagan, welcome to money rehab. I cannot believe we're here. I'm so happy we're here. If I had a poster of you growing up, it would have been next to Christyamaguchi as like my idols, truly. I mean, that's beyond, beyond, beyond, beyond. And some say don't meet your idols. Chris Yamaguchi taught me how to ice skate, actually. And you taught me how to be a good person.

And in the live order, ice skating far more important. Truly, you know, growing up, all I heard was like, Darren Kagan, Darren Kagan, Darren Kagan. Like one day maybe you could meet her or smell her hair or like be in her presence because she's the one that made it out of the journalism class that both of us were in. Same high school. For the record, I believe I graduated before you were. were born. However, we did not only share the high school, there's one legendary journalism teacher who taught there forever, Mr. Chesterton. May you rest in peace. Yes, Mr. C who launched some

significant careers and just significant people. It was a great place to put your time. It was so interesting because in high school, like you don't know what you're good at. There's so much teenage angst. And I stumbled into something that I knew nothing about. and never thought, like, I would want to be a journalist growing up. And it truly changed my life. And that man, I mean, imparted, like, so much Darren Kagan fandom. Like, I can't tell you, it was indoctrinated into me just being like, one day, you could make it big and you could do this too. And so I never thought that I would actually meet you, much less know you.

But we should also say the reason we did meet. was because at an incredibly young age for this kind of career, you land at CNN, which took me quite a few more stops to get to a hit. Yes, back in the day, in journalism, you were supposed to go through these small markets. And I thought, like, I would live and die in Poughkeepsie. And maybe one day I would get to Los Angeles in local news. And then I would die a happy woman. K&BC, Los Angeles was my ultimate dream. But then you were out crushing it, Covering 9-11, covering the Gulf War, like all the things at CNN like the queen that you are. And yeah, I thought that, you know, maybe one day, like, I would meet you somewhere and did not expect at 20 to get called for this thing, this internet thing at CNN.

And I truly, truly, we were talking about it this morning as we were thinking about you guys coming in. I thought I would audition there and it would be such a great experience as it would have been and I would leave and I would never ever forget and on the off chance I emailed you and I thought maybe I don't know like maybe she would ready be back but you did and it and it was it's something that I'll never forget and you invited me to sit with you on the anchor desk and here we are and I'm so proud of everything that you've done and yeah I mean that's just what you do you be good and you be nice that's what I always tell people be really good at your job and be nice to other people because, well, just because, but also that person you're being good to might one day just be a badass boss woman who you're thrilled to be on her podcast. But, you know, in that space too, oftentimes like women are pitted against each other, that there's some competition. And you bucked that trend for me. Thank you for that credit. I would also say I felt like at CNN, that really was not my experience. It was women for women. People like Judy Woodruff, Greta Vancestrian, women supported each other. I'm making

think of a couple that maybe passed a rumor or two. But in general, it really was about women supporting other women. So when you see my email, I'm sure you don't remember this at all, but just based on that culture, you thought, okay, I'll help this young whippersnapper out. Well, not to make you not feel special, but I'm sure you're not the only one that I invited to come sit on the anchor set. Like, that's, that was not a lot out of my day. I'm sure. It's not that hard to be nice and it's not that hard to share.

Well, it was so gracious of you. And then three months later, I got a call. They were like, come to Atlanta. I was like, am I getting punked? Is this a joke? I think what's interesting about your CNN experience, it was probably five to ten years ahead of its time for the project that they brought you in to do. It was a streaming service.

Like, here was a crazy idea. We're going to have people that are just going to be streaming the news on the internet. Like, what is that? And it ultimately didn't make it not because of you or because of people who weren't involved, but I really do think it was too early. Yes, the entire department got let go, which was a fascinating experience for me. But when I started, so I got there 2006 and you were leaving. Yes, that's exactly when I was leaving.

At the time, I had no experience with announcements. I just thought when people say, I'm more. moving on to do other things. Those are true. And so I had no idea why he left or what the story was. So, well, I still don't know the whole story, but I'll tell you the part of the story that I do know. It was January of that year. And I was on the set and it was breaking news. And there was an email from the big boss. I think it was John Klein at that time and said, hey, when you get off the year, why don't you come see me? I thought he was calling me up to tell me what a great job my team and I did on breaking news that day, which I assure you we did because we were very good at that.

Yes. And instead he called me up and he said, your contract is up at the end of this year. And I want to let you know we're not going to renew you. But I'm not going to let you go. I'd like for you to stay. Well, I think I would. I'll let you know. So every day I came to work after that for like nine months.

I didn't know if that was going to be the last day that I spent, I mean, I'd spent 12 years there, which was a little stressful. but it also was a gift because I didn't know the thing I hadn't figured out the thing I was going to go do next. So it was kind of quiet. And then about Labor Day, they called me and they said, okay, now we're sure. Now we know we're going to let you go. And then that was it. But was so unusual about that. Usually with on-air people, you know, when you're done, you're done that day because they don't want to kind of put you on the air and let you say whatever you want. Like I, this guy, John Klein, boo. And I never asked why. People go, well, why they let you go? I was really

clear I was never going to ask why. Why? Why? Because why doesn't matter. I mean, you know how subjective that business is. It's kind of like toothpaste. If they decide they don't like you anymore, they don't. You work by contract to three-year contracts. It's not France for guaranteed employment for life. And I also probably figured I wouldn't hear the truth. Is it because you make too much? Is it because we didn't like who you were dating? is because any particular thing, it was enough to know they didn't want me anymore. So it's like, all right. Peace out.

Wow. I mean, that was so grown up of you because when I got the call from HR, all I said was like, why? Why? What did I do? I didn't know. But I, yeah, it was the first time I had ever experienced like a layoff or a firing or anything like that. And probably with breakups at the time.

Later on, you learn it doesn't really matter why. Although I would say there are plenty of guys I did ask why, but I wasn't going to ask you. But did they tell you why? No, it was HR mumbo-jumbo, but I didn't know that you're never going to get, like, satisfying answer. You're never going to get that closure. So now you're the big boss woman, but if this situation happened to you again where somebody was going to discontinue you or you did get fired or not continued, would you ask why? No, I don't think so. Everything ends.

That's where I kind of come to my life. Every job, every life, every relationship, everything will end. And the kind of the why it ends eventually doesn't matter. It just ends. And that's not people like, oh, that's so dark. But I actually think it's light because then you appreciate what you have while you have it, knowing that it's not going to be forever. Well, the good and the bad.

Yes, exactly. Exactly. And did you think when you heard around Labor Day that there was going to be no other role like maybe originally you thought you would be reassigned to another hour well no i knew that wasn't going to happen so the gift of not being let go that day it did give me time first i had my sad where you know i called under my covers and had my cry and then i kind of started looking around well what am i going to do so the options then were try to get on with another network like get up to msnbc or fox or one of you know ABC or CBS that would have meant moving and i really

didn't want to do that. Going back to local, I really didn't want to do that. I also had kind of a realistic look of, well, I could go to the next thing, but I knew I was going to age out. It's not like all women can't. There are some women who go forward, but eventually some 20-something comes up and at that pay rate, that pay rate, they will kind of scoot you out. And I came up with my idea. I decided I wanted to do uplifting and positive news. And it was just the beginning of journalists being entrepreneurs. I mean, by the beginning, I mean, the very, very beginning.

So I went and had my own website built. I came up with what I thought was a good business model, which actually wasn't, but it was a thing to go do. And so when they said, now it's time, I was like, okay, I did go, I did say to the big boss at the time, I said, hey, I actually have this idea, and it might be good for here. And they never asked me what.

They didn't say what it was. I said, oh, good luck to you, and they let me go. And then meanwhile, after I left, then they started like CNN Heroes and they did start a lot of kind of good news, positive things. But that's okay. That was their thing. And I went off to do mine. And I want to double click on the age out situation. So did you feel like there was an expiration date? I think there was. And I will be so bold as to say there is an expiration date, not for like if you're a really big star, not for the. Barbara Walters, or for heaven's sake, Gail King is 70 years old leading that. But if you're in that weekend, midday, those slots that can be really used to develop an up-and-coming talent, I think as a woman at a certain point, yeah, I think there is. What point? Somewhere in your 40s,

I would say. Great. No, no, but no, that's why you are where you are because now you're your own boss. No, I'm not saying, not today. I'm saying in that news world, I don't think you'll see a lot of weekend, midday, that second tier slot, women over 50, let's say. And now you're going to click and say, oh, there, you're right. Has it changed? I don't know how much that it has. But I think I'm also just kind of a realist. Like when I went from news into sports, it is a man's world.

Like I knew when I was doing sports, if a male sports anchor, mispronounced someone's name, it would be, oh, well, he just messed up the name. If a woman mispronounces that name, oh, look, clearly she doesn't know sports. And that's the rules of that game. And it's not fair, but it kind of is what it is. And you go and you partake. And then when it's not for you anymore, you go on and go do something else. Did you have that feeling?

No. And I certainly did not expect. I mean, I was blindsided. I did not expect that that was going to happen. I had already survived like six or seven. bosses. I was always the put me and coach, like, go do. And I was really good at my job. I was not expecting it. But now that I look back, I can go, oh, yeah, okay, that's, that's part of what that was. And when you left, did you try to go to Fox or? I was working with an agent. I had him send some tapes out.

But at that point, I was really excited about going out of my own and kind of doing this thing. picking myself, like hiring myself, because I really wanted to do uplifting and positive news. And I think I was branded in the industry as, oh, she's a really strong breaking news anchor who we've watched on CNN from 9 to noon for the last, I don't know, 10 years, whatever. So that would be, I was going to try to get to CBS or ABC. I think that's what they would see me as. I couldn't really show up there and go, hey, I think you should do uplifting and positive news and I want to be the one to do it.

That was going to be a hard sell. So instead, I made up the job and I gave it to myself, which is really how I've had the most success over my entire career anyway. You absolutely chose yourself. It seems like for the first time. You know, I think to get to CNN, so I was working in Phoenix. They had made me sign a five-year contract for $19,000 a year since we like to talk money here. No outs. When you talk, I mean, no outs.

Oh, yeah. Mine was $18,000 in Pump Springs, yes. Yeah, I mean, Diane Sawyer could have keeled over. And ABC could have called and said, we want Darren. And that news director would have said, hell no, she's under contract for $19,000 a year. But the next 10 years, no, it was a five-year contract, no out. I counted down to the end of that, like, my whole life was going to change at the end of that five years. And it got to, like, year four, and it was, like, nothing was kind of really happening.

So that's when I got the idea to do sports. And so I went into that news director. Oh, that news director, by the way, I was the only brunette on that station. else was blonde and when I would go in yeah so I was a reporter and I would go in kind of a chance to anchor and he would say Darren and TV there's just this it and some people have it and some people don't and clearly you don't so if you work really hard one day you'll be a really good reporter in Phoenix Arizona but why would you dream of being anything else tip on the shoulder yeah anyhow so I got the idea to do sports the sports guy pulled me over and said the weekday guy

I pulled me over and said, women don't do sports. I know this sounds like 1892, but it wasn't. But still, it was still kind of new for women doing sports. And they started a weekend morning newscast. And I went to that same news director. And I said, hey, you're starting this morning weekend thing. I want to be the sportscaster for that. And he said, that show does not have a sports casting position.

And I said, I know. I made it up and I gave it to myself. And at this point, I was his top reporter. I'd worked really hard. So I was the nightside reporter. And you know how it works. and news, if you work weekends, you get two days off during the week. And it's like, I'm not giving you Thursday, Friday off so you can come do sports. I said, what if I do it on my own time?

He's like, you're going to work seven days a week for $19,000. I said, oh, we'll do it for a month. Let me try it for a month. And, you know, what was he going to say? I was offering to do something for free. I knew he was never going to watch this thing, so I could do it for as long as I needed or wanted to. I could, just let me try. If I'm bad, you pull me off the air, and if I hate it, I'll stop doing it. So he let me and I did it for a year and a half. I worked seven days a week, nightside during the week, mornings on weekend mornings. And still it got to the end of the contract. And still I had nothing. I had an agent who was sending tapes out, nothing, nothing, nothing. So this little TV station came to me and said, okay, your contract's up. You're going to sign this

extension. You're going to stop doing sports, no anchoring and no outs in two years. I mean, it was ridiculous. And I said, I can't, I can't do that. I said, okay, you're going to sign this. instead. You're going to look for a new job and we're going to look for your replacement and whoever wins gets to give the other person seven days notice. What the heck? So I signed that. I'll fast forward the story, but I got the CNN offer and I was able to go in and give my seven days notice. Wow. This is wild times. Yeah. So there's all things. Yeah, I bet on myself. You were an entrepreneur before you were an entrepreneur. Like I think, hey money rehabbers, aren't you crushing it with your saving goals? Of course you are. But did you know,

know that you can make your money work as hard as you do with U.S. Bank Smartly checking and savings? From tracking your spending to growing your savings, banks smartly can help you reach your goals faster with higher savings rates and waived monthly fees on eligible accounts. Because when your bank believes in your potential as much as you do, that's when real progress happens. That's the power of us. Visit usbank.com today. Interest rates and annual percentage yields for variable accounts are determined by the bank's discretion and can change at any time. Deposit products are offered by U.S. Bank National Association, member FDIC. I think too at CNN I was able to create series and things within the organization, but it's a

totally different animal to be an entrepreneur versus entrepreneur. It is, but you're kind of doing it on someone else's dime with someone else's toys. There's always opportunity, even in a dead end job. I agree, but what's really cool when we were last catching up is that even though you were blindsided, you had an amazing financial advisor. We can talk about that. So you had no severance. No, no severance. I mean, your contract's up, your contract's up. Nothing. But you had like a few months of heads up. Well, right. And so let's go back. So I was very well paid. So in Phoenix, I was making $19,000. My first job at CNN doing sports was $50,000, which I mean, you could have just taught me right then, you know, to more than double. I paid off with a little credit card.

I had left from Phoenix and I mean, I bought my first townhouse and I was, I was happy. And then did sports for three years. It kind of went up a little bit. And then a new boss came in and offered to make me a news anchor. So then I was making low six figures. And that kind of just double, double that by the time I left CNN, I was making a half million dollars a year. And single, no kids. Yeah. And so when I really started making the like six figures, I was connected, actually the same friends that eventually introduced me to my husband, introduced me to their financial advisor, a woman that completely rewired how my brain thought about money because I did not come from a healthy money environment. My dad was a compulsive gambler. We kind of just made it up

as we went along. Those parents started to kind of lean on me. Yeah, it wasn't good. But so through her, I sat down with her and she said, this is what we're going to do. We're basically going to save two-thirds of what you make as a CNN anchor. And she's like, I don't want to be punitive. If we're saving too much and you're not doing the things you want to do, then, you know, we'll ease up on that, but let's try. And so that's what we did. So she was the first person I called and went to see when CNN let me go. And I was sitting in her office across just like I'm sitting from you. And I'm like, and let me go. And she has got the biggest smile in her face. I'm like, Margaret, what is wrong?

Did you not hear? I said, they're letting me go. And she pulls out my statements on paper then. And she's like, look, look what you've done. You've done this. And you're fine. And you have this cushion. And you can go do all these things.

She goes, plus, you were making this. And she puts her head up, her hand up high. She's like, but you've been living on this. And this is true. She's like, Darren, your idea of fun is you go buy an extra chicken for your backyard coop. You know, like, you're not. out there buying fancy shoes and purses.

And so to match that really wasn't as hard. I didn't have to go meet. I was looking so far behind my means. Let's just put it that so far below my means. I mean, you're the opposite of lifestyle creep. Yes, the opposite. So I had money to bank well what I wanted to go do. I had an idea what I wanted to go do.

And so off I went. Did I do it like the most smart? Did my original idea make great money? No. I mean, there's been a ton of things to figure out since then. But the opportunity to go do what I want to do, not only did I have that, but I created that. And that was very empowering. Beyond empowering.

And how much runway did she show you you had? Like in your mind, did you think, I have a year, I have two years, I have five years. I mean, it was such a different time. So I wanted a website. Well, at that time, I think I spent like $25,000. to have a website design. Today, I could whip you up one on WordPress myself. Yeah, I could do it.

Well, shoot, chat to people, yeah, would just create it for me. But that, you had to pay like $1,000 a month for the software to run it. I mean, there were definitely expenses. I needed some help. Editing, things definitely weren't as self-serve and cheap as they are now. I did not know. See, that would be a perfect example. How much runway?

I'm like, I don't know. I still had a little bit of the Kagan in me. I don't know. Let's just start and we'll figure it out with big dreams. I mean, I remember when I got let go, I had like $4 at a Pikachu doll. I did not very much. But it was a different time. So when you were first, I go of CNN, well, that was like the equivalent of where I was.

I'm certainly you're making more at CNN than I was making it in Phoenix. You're making more than $19,000 a year. Yeah. At CNN, I made $80,000. Right. So, but still. Which was so much money for me. It was great.

But you hadn't had a chance to build. No, I was in credit card debt. It was, well, yeah, I thought this was many X what I was making in Palm Springs. Yes, and it was. It totally was. But I was when I was blindsided and got a call from HR and asked why, and I still had time on my contract, which was bizarre at the time because I could have gotten paid out, but there was part of the stipulation that if you got another job, you don't get severance. So I got another job. You don't get severance. So I got another job. job pretty quickly. You almost can't afford to go to work. I know. Yeah, unless it's for more. But I was so scared. I was so scared. I had no safety net at the time. I get it. Well, that's where I was in Phoenix when they said, sign this thing for seven days. I mean, I had no savings. But of course, there's always involved, like, the guy had dumped me. And like, there was, the decks had been clear. There was nothing. There was no fallback. So I understand. I definitely understand. But Margaret.

Shout out to Margaret Craft. But it's, it's so scary. when a huge thing like that happens, if the financial component is just as shaky or worse, it makes everything harder because you're already going through such a whirlwind. I remember I was walking down my street. So, okay, when CNN let me go, another relationship had ended. So I was walking down my street, walking my dog, and I ran into a woman who lived like halfway down the block. She was pregnant with her fourth trying to get a real estate license, totally overwhelmed.

I'm living in this house they had bought that they thought they were going to renovate and they didn't. And I'm just walking down in a daze. And she's like, what's wrong? And I said, I just lost my job. My relationship ended. I don't have a tie to a single thing in the world. And she looked at me. She goes, that sounds like heaven.

So my like nightmare was like her fantasy at that point because she was overly tied down. But it was, but it was too much not tied. down. Like, where do you live? Do you live in Atlanta? Why? I was living in Atlanta originally because I moved there for CNN. And I owned a home and it felt like home, but I didn't want to come back to L.A. Like, there was nowhere. I could go anywhere and didn't want to go anywhere. Yeah, and the world was changing too, the paradigm. I mean, we saw then, you know, Paris Hilton leaving jail was breaking news on CNN. And I was like, wait a minute, I went to journalism school. What are we doing? Things are changing. The Kardashians are hosting the Today Show.

Mario Lopez is hosting a big entertainment show. These were the pinnacle of where you were told you were supposed to climb to in this space. And it was changing so quickly. It was changing. And it was just, like I said, the beginning of, I mean, the idea when we, and I know we started our career is very far apart. But even when you started, the idea that a journalist could be an entrepreneur, you might as well own a noodle shop. I mean, there's just, no, you went to work for big corporations and they empowered you. and you played by their rules and you made them money and they paid you money,

the idea that you have your own thing like this, like what I have, it's just unheard of. Unheard of. And, you know, when you came on my podcast and we were talking about this, you talked about how when you were one of the early people to go out and start and creating your thing and people told you,

are you nuts? Look, look, you're going to give up all this. And you said, actually, yes, I am. Because this is not what you promised it was going to be to me when I started.

For sure. I was, yeah, 21 when I got my dream job, 25 when I lost my dream job. I tried to reframe it at the time. It was really, really hard for me. Was there a year that you felt like it sunk in that you weren't under the covers anymore? Like, how long did that process take? So if they told me in January and I finally left in September and I launched November, probably it was spring or summer and where the idea came from was so yahoo at the time which

was big had hired gosh now i'm forgetting his name CNN had a war correspondent and they hired him to go to like every bad place in the world for a year it was like the war the war room or something kind of can't believe i can't remember his name anyhow it's like what you can do that like you can have a website where you just go do the kind of news you want to go do and then just Like as an intellectual exercise, I asked myself, well, if I did that, like, what would be mine? And it was clear. It was like, I always loved uplifting a positive news. And I said, I would love just to do uplifting a positive news.

So I went through somebody, through somebody. I actually had a meeting with Yahoo. Can I tell you my pitch? Because to this day, I think it is a very. Let's go. Okay. So you go on Yahoo.com. You can get your stocks, your sports, your news, your war.

where's the Yahoo and Yahoo click on Yahoo and get uplifting and positive news like give me that that pitch didn't land never heard from them again but then it was my little sister who kind of said what are you doing like why are you giving this idea away go create a website and hire yourself go do you good news well because for so many years you were covering the worst news I was but when I had my own for that for that big stretch I had my own show on CNN I I could realize I was getting ready. I was creating segments like, oh, let's do our uplifting story of the day. I was booking this kind of guests that were doing people who were changing the world.

So there were little spaces. Yeah. But overall, it was doom and gloom and death and destruction. And I don't know if you had nightmares. I would, after Virginia Tech, I was on the air for a lot of hours and I would have lots of nightmares. Did it affect you in that way? I mean, sadly, with news, I could talk about the worst things in the world and get off that set and be a goldfish. And I couldn't, we could go to lunch that day and you go, what happened?

Now, I can't see any horror movies like fiction and bad dream. To this day, I can't. I don't know why. Fiction affects me that way. News? So the good news wasn't a response to all of the bad news. So just kind of more when I'm drawn to anyway. Sunshine and puppies.

I just. And babies. thinking back, I was also single when I was like, and it was this weird time where I was like, do I stay in Atlanta? Do I not? I don't know. And I thought I was just going to be broke alone and homeless and die in the gutter, which is still my fear. And have that work out. I think it's working out a little bit different for you, Nicole. Although it's very funny that this woman that was pregnant on your street told you how freeing it is because just yesterday we had an interview of a woman who came in. And I was like, oh, yeah, I haven't seen you. Lots of stuff happened.

I got married, had a baby house burned down in that order. She's like, is that freeing? I was like, well, nobody's ever asking me that. But interesting question, just losing everything that you've ever owned. Which could be a little insensitive, I think, for someone. And maybe that was insensitive for her to say that. I just felt like the three things I always wanted to be, a wife, a mother and have a career. here I was I was 40 in early 40s of like and I've done none of it I have no claim on any of it I don't have the guy who wants me I don't have the baby I had a great dog and I threw like a cat and some chickens but the career didn't want me the guy didn't want me and I yeah so what was this all for and it wasn't for lack of trying in all those departments but fast forward I wish that current Darren could talk oh it should have had so many conversations when she was leaving CNN what was

What would present Darren say to her? It's all going to be fine. He's on the way. He's taking a long time to get here. But he's on the way. And he's worth the wait. Yeah. Oh, not only was he worth the weight, but the person I am today to be with him was worth

the weight. That honestly, and you're going to get to meet him and talk with him, but I wouldn't have dated him when I was at CNN. So how did you meet? we met through the same gay boyfriends who introduced me to Margaret, Craig and Michael. I owe them everything, my money and my husband. We, I was a third wheel. They had a son.

You know, in Atlanta, there's these springtime festivals. And I'd gone with them and their son to Summerfest in Virginia Highlands. And I was with one of the dads, Michael. And Craig went to the funnel cake line. And in the funnel cake line, he found himself standing behind a fellow job. dad who had a little girl at the school where his son went and just kind of casually invited them over like oh a bunch of us are sitting and they come walking across the field and Michael starts punching me in the arm going single single incoming single and like I'm hot and I'm sweaty and

I'm like yeah Michael today's not the day and he sat down and we met and it was loud I mean it's not like it was like that moment moment was magic but we met and then they left and then Michael looked at me and said, well, what did you think? And I went, he's like, well, that's more than I've heard out of you. I didn't, like, dated in four years. So if Michael went on the PTA contact list and reached out to the man we know as the husband today and to say, you know, just wondering, are you in a relationship and are you, you know, available?

And he wrote back that it's complicated. And I heard that. And I'm like, okay, I don't do complicated and forgot about it. But like a month later, he emailed me and asked me out to coffee. and here we are. What happened next? So we went out for a long coffee. Then he ghosted me for a few weeks.

And then he popped back again. And so his story was he was a single dad. Married, had a child, and they got divorced. And his ex-wife died. So he, when we met, he was raising, he was single dad raising his daughter alone. I had never actually dating anybody with kids, which I can't believe I went that far. But let alone, I'm not. I mean, it's one thing to relate to date a divorced dad, but he was like a full-time single dad.

It was just him and his daughter. And so we went to dinner and I said, well, how does a single dad date? And he said, well, how does therapist Joe say I should date or how do I date? I'm like, let's start with therapist Joe. He said, therapist Joe said that he certainly allowed to date, but he should keep it separate from his daughter because she has already experienced loss. She's already lost her mother. And he's like, yeah, that's not how I date. But having a therapist is a green flag.

Yes. Oh, there are a lot of green flags about him. Actually, if you want the ultimate green flag, date a man who's a father because you see, it's fast forward. I kept investing in these single guys thinking, oh, they'll turn into this. But this was kind of like rooms to go. Like, you could see. You know how like on social media, now let's get to the good part?

Like you see him in the good part. Like you could see, oh, wait, he is on this earth to be like a husband and a father. Like this is how he does it. There's no question. Anyhow, we dated a couple years. We got married. I legally adopted her. So that was my sideways into motherhood.

And then the year before I met them, I'd signed up to be a big sister in the big brother, big sister program. And because of what was happening in that little girl's life, she came to live with us full time. So I went from single, no kids to married with two little girls. With exactly the girls, the kids I was meant to have the whole time. No angst of, oh, I need a bylaw. child and that's how he became this family. Wow. So I would have told her to go back to your

question. I would have told Darren sad. Darren, what you want is not coming. What's coming is better than you could ever dream for yourself because it's bigger and better and exactly what was supposed to happen. That's what I would tell her. I'm so, so in the deepest part of my soul happy to hear you say that. And he, I would love, he's here. I see him from my line. I'd love to invite him on because you guys have also, in addition to being in love and parents, get free flights in the most fascinating ways. Wait, before we do, I just want to say, because I know your demographic is that 30-something, 30-to-40 woman. Like, the demographic is who I was.

And it's not just women who are worried about money, but it's women worried about, like, where are all the good guys? And I would just say, just know he's on the way. And that that family can look very different that what you think it's supposed to be. And when you open your mind to that, like, the magic can really happen. you never gave up on that dream it just oh no I gave up oh you did yeah when did you give up right before right before right before yeah it's so funny I gave up on the dream right before I met my husband and that they go oh once you give up I know I hate cliches but it's true like I really really

I gave it lip service for a long time I was like no it's fine but then I really believed I was like I am I'm fine I wrote through what life would be like as a mother for you know women that I was talking to was like a different kind. I really rethought it. And like, I imagine what that was and I was actually cool with it. And then the husband. I had so let go of it that when I met Trent, who you're about to meet, one of the things I thought was so hot about him is that he was a single dad. So I thought, oh, he's busy Monday through Friday. I'll only see him on the weekends. That's perfect. I have my weeks to myself. And he was the one who said, no, hold on. Like, if we're not really going for this, like I became the noncommittal one. And he became,

the one who's like, look, are you in this or you not? I was like, weren't. That's sexy. Yeah, well, he like kind of got us with me in shape. I'm like, oh, okay. He knew what he wanted. He knew the value that was in front of him, like a smart, smart man. Well, no, he was clear about what he wanted and he wasn't sure that I was that.

Like, if I wasn't going to be all in, he was not interested in somebody who just wanted to see him on the weekends. He wanted a full-time relationship. First time I ever found one of those people. And so I married him. So you gave up and then you ungave up. Yes, exactly. But I truly, truly gave up.

Gave up, yeah. I know. Why is it like that all the time? That's one of the physics of love. In addition to all of his amazing attributes, you call him. So my term of endearment is husband, not sweetheart or sweetie or whatever, because I can't think of a more, a bigger term of endearment since I never thought I would get one of those. So I just call him husband.

that's like my sweetheart name. And so then he'll call me wife. I love it. And then branded him Miles' husband, which we will. Why do we call him Miles' husband? Because about the time we started dating, he came up with a points in miles system to completely organize our finances. So every dollar we spend brings a point or a mile or multiples of that back so that we're able to travel the world in luxury while spending pennies. Hell yes.

And my friends were like, how do I do that? Like, this is what we do. Let's, let's brand you. So I said, you're Miles Husband. I grabbed Mileshusband.com, built him his social media. We did some media training. We'll see how I did. And set him on his way.

Let's meet up. I'm so excited. So, so honored to say. Trent Swanson, aka Miles Husband, welcome to money rehab. So glad to be here. So you just heard Darren recount your romance. anything surprise you? I was a bit disentangled at the time. She, in fact, wasn't having a great day because she was still mourning the loss of her prior relationship, yet somewhat dated historical

relationship. It had been a while, but that particular person had, yeah, yeah. I hadn't dated this first. Explain the tears coming out of your. The reason I was spending so much time with Craig and Michael on that particular weekend was the person I had dated four years previous was getting married that weekend. And I was just brokenhearted as if we had broken up the weekend before. And so the weekend that Craig and Michael were keeping me busy, busy, busy is the weekend I met my future husband. So when Michael- So what are the tears of me? And is it the bad band music in back? Is it it's too hot out? Is it why there are tears coming down? Oh, that's when he met him. Yeah. So our first meeting, she was crying. Yeah. So when you guys got together,

you started an experiment, right, where you're just trying to get free tickets to Miami? So I read a column written right around 2012 where a person said, take advantage of this promotion, you know, which is buy a pair of shoes, at a specific merchant through a specific technique and you get enough points in miles for two free first-class tickets to Miami. It's like, oh, what is this nonsense? That's impossible, right? If everyone could do this. There would be no more flights. And so I said, well, let me just try it. So I read the very short, succinct article, read it, followed the steps. Two weeks later had enough points for these free tickets in hand. And I thought it was the greatest thing in the world because I thought

the Nirvana, the best place to be was flying in a recline receipt on American Airlines for a two-hour flight. I thought that was the pinnacle because I didn't know, a total newbie. So we did it, loved it, then I started to think, wait, are these techniques scalable such that I can outsize, upsize, upscale, up elegant, for similar amount of work, can I do that and really make this thing phenomenal? And so that's how Miles' husband, the hobby was born. I think the branding came from Darren a couple of years later. Yeah. So that was the beginning. That was the gateway drug, those pair of shoes. And then I was like, oh, if I order this, this way. And then, oh, he started with credit cards. And I mean, there's been some pretty crazy things. The day we got

married, so we got married next to a waterfall, which is us and our two girls. And we drove from Atlanta to North Carolina and we're up in the highway. We're all in our wedding gear. And he gets off the highway and pulls into the CD Motel. I'm like, what are you doing? And what we're, you call the mattress run? So back in the day, I guess it's going back 12 years now. No, more. This is 2012. Yeah.

So you could achieve loyalty status by the number of stays at a given hotel in a hotel chain. The amount of dollars per night didn't matter. It's just, did you get a stay credit? You compile enough of these state credits, you get to be elite status, which gives you upgrades, big sweet rooms, nice, big breakfasts, especially internationally. So there's a technique that used to work, still somewhat does work. is where you can check in to a hotel and not stay. So you get a great rate, you check in, you leave, and you check up by phone, or not check out at all, and you just go to your account and you see your elite status

credits post and pretty soon. And now if mattress runs, we'll get you fantastic benefits. Because you had a job. That's a job, job, job. Right, right. Yeah, this is a side hustle job, passion. Jobby. Yeah.

But it's, it's grown since then. So you got these free tickets to Miami. You got the coveted Laflat seat. Not on that one. That was a recliner. A recliner seat. You got the coveted recliner. That's where we started.

And I realized the same techniques, adding a few other techniques can get you butlers and showers in the sky and Krug champagne and not only a flat beds, but the entire suite, which has walls and a ceiling with your butler window. You can do the same things on those luxury airlines, Emirates, Etad, J.L. So that's where the scale makes the time investment really, really pay off. Because you guys have pictures, Gloria's pictures, in Emirates with the Butler. You went to Japan for $5. And 60 cents. I'm sorry. You went to Japan for $5.60.

So how do you strategize? This is really a growing business. The credit cards are, the credit card points purchases are the largest profitable segment of the airline business. And so it's a really big space out there. There's a lot of noise. But the real strong signal is, you know, as a normie who wants to travel luxuriously, the best thing to do is build out a plan on where you want to go, how many people are

going, what's the minimum class of service, and how flexible is your, calendar. So answering those who are questions will drive you to earn the exact types of airline points, the exact type of bank points where you can most efficiently redeem those for that travel. And also with the least amount of out-of-pocket spend. Because when I first heard about this, you do to my friend where you say, I'm not going to tell you when we're coming home or where we're going or how we're getting home, but we're going in business class. I do like that part. or first class. What? Why? So there's two parts of it. There's the earning side. How do you earn the most and best points? And that's kind of what I'm talking about. And then there's the burn side. How do you actually find the tickets? Because I'm sure anybody who's listening who's interested about miles and points has tried to go and book a ticket and either can't find it. Like what do you mean I need a million points? So there's the earn side to get good on and the burn side. So let's go to the earn side. What's the best way? So what's more important though is you really work on your your vision you define that vision answer those four questions where do you want to go

where you want to go what class of service how many travelers how wide or narrow is your window date window right and so answer those questions that's the burn side right that will tell you exactly the template for the earn side and so you have to work backward reverse engineer this because what really happens here at lax right people show up with a pile of american points and a pile of sky miles, right? I want to go and fly the Edahad Butler with my sky miles. Well, well, guess what? You didn't tell us that in the beginning. You didn't lay out your vision. So what did you do instead? You collected blindly these series of loyalty points without knowing how they're even redeemable. If you only drink the Peets, Cafe Moka, why you're earning Starbucks star points? Like,

you're never going to be able to use those at Peets. Go to a car dealership. You say, you're You want a car, the dealer, instead of asking you the qualifying questions, family, van, sports car, snow tires, and city takes you to the car that has the highest dealer holdback percentage. All right. So that's what you really want to avoid is you want to earn points and spend your money with a purpose. You purposefully earn the points exactly targeted to the luxury tour, the luxury destination and location that you want. And that's one of the big secrets of loyalty points is if you lay out that model, it becomes more simple, less out-of-pocket spend, and you don't earn points that you'll never have a strategy to redeem. Because every dollar you spend earning an airline mile costs you two percentage points in discount. Because most people who want to travel coach to see grandmother in Tulsa should probably just get a 2% cash back card and then write.

to check to themselves every month, put it in a dowry, travel, grandma, travel dowry, and go in there and buy your ticket with cash. That's the simplest way for folks who want to really travel in economy class domestically. But like producer Morgan was saying she and her hasn't still want to take a honeymoon. So let's reverse engineer that. So what would be the best way to get her to, I don't know, where do you want to go, Fiji? Find a partner who wants to go on a honeymoon with you. Check.

We got that. So let's say Hawaii. We want to go to Hawaii. No, we have to dream bigger than Hawaii. Okay. Okay. Where do we want to go? You know, it's funny because you guys brought it up.

Japan is like so hot. Perfect. Perfect. You know nothing about it. Don't know where to go. Perfect. Let's use Japan. So great.

And you're going to be traveling from West Coast or East? Okay. So Japan from the East Coast. And it's interesting because in the past two weeks, literally the entire mechanism. So the destination and vision didn't change. But the mechanism to earn the best point. changed because a credit card issuer created a new partnership

with Japan Airlines. So Capital One introduced a brand new partnership and introduced a 30% bonus where you transfer a point and get 30% extra. So they created this big spin-up. And so the best way to do this now is if you have Capital One miles, you get 30% more, more than you would. Otherwise, now, but the other challenge,

is this is as you're looking at this redemption side, the biggest mystery that most folks misunderstand or miss or dismiss is inventory is tightly controlled. So if you go up delta.com or any airline.com buy the ticket is your credit card. The inventory is pretty much infinite. There's 200 seats on the plane. You can buy any of those 200 seats. Award inventory is tighten the control between 1, 0, 1, and 9 seats are made available. So the trick is, what's the propensity and tendency? How many tickets are made available? What's the cadence of release? When those are taken? Are they replenished? When are they replenished? So we get back to your question. Why? What does this wait to the last minute? Because the last minute is a huge award and mature

replenishment scheme. So 72 hours out or less, the seats that are not going to be sold with cash are flipped over to this rewards bucket of inventory. And that's what you can really redeem points at the very last minute. So one of the tricks is wait till last minute to get the best inventory, which is contra the most of our thinking, right? But for example, last summer, the summer of 24, we went to Japan. We were like Morgan her husband, but he, we do, we like to do what's called a spin the wheel vacation where we say, okay, we know we're going to go at this time and he'll figure out where we can go. And so we knew we were in travel. It was like the first week of June. We had a like 12 day window. So we locked that window. It's one of the four

questions, right? What's, what's your window? So we locked in that window and we limited our universe of what we could do based upon that. So while the window was locked in, I went to research which lawyers of programs released which award inventory for which airlines. How do you know that the inventory? Is there a site? Every every loyalty program publishes their award inventory and if you track it frequently enough you can track the trends the ups and downs when it stays flat what triggers replenishment whether it's first class but it all real starts with creating that vision you know I'm going to japan what should I do and the the big part of this capital one JAL relationship is every loyalty

program by rule generates its list of available inventory on a calendar. Some of those go as far out as 360 days into the future, whereas others only go 30 30 days in the future. So that difference between 330 and 360, if you have access to the inventory at day 360, you will steal it when the program only gets access at day 330. And so how do I, if I'm going to Japan, I know I have two first class seats on every flight out of Dallas, one out of L.A., one out of JOK, three out of O'Hare. How do I get myself to O'Hare for the greatest chance of that award inventory opening up? And the first thing you have to do is say, I've got to get access to the program where I've got to get access to the program where I'm 360 days in advance I can buy it and lock it in as opposed to waiting for 330 days when everyone's already picked over the inventory.

and that seat that you want is not going to be there. But even if Morgan just starts with this is where we're going and starts collecting the right kind of points, she and her husband are going to be light years ahead of most people who come to you and say, oh, will you help me book my dream vacation and I have the wrong points? Sure, it's right. And so the Capital One Venture card is great for that. Any of the Amex cards are great for that because they have access to that loyalty program who has inventory earlier than its competitors have it for the very same seat on the very

same airplane. Not sponsored by Capital One. Just fly. It's a little bit of a Rubik's cube. But if you start with that focus and realize I need to have enough miles, endpoints earned, 360 or 330 days in advance, then that's how you lay out your scheme. So you're looking 12, 18 months in the future and realizing I need to have a certain accumulation of the right currency.

So when the inventory comes available, I immediately know. where to go, and I lock it in. Okay. So how did you guys get there for $5? Now can Morgan get to Japan for $5? Okay. Well, yeah, our Japan story, so you found we knew we were going to spend the wheel. We were going to go somewhere. I think it was a Thursday. And he said, we can do Japan, J-A-L, first class, but we have to get to Chicago by Tuesday. So we had a 96-hour notice. And we already had our date windows. We knew our minimum class of service. We had our dog sitter We knew where we wanted to go. And so the only challenges that we had is to get from Savannah to O'Hare and there was

an on-stop on American and we used to use some points for that too. So that's how we did it. Now it's difficult to lay out the recipe without naming credit card issuers who are not sponsors. What the best technique is going to do to be is you want to earn points in a loyalty program that has access to long, you know, 360-day inventory. So JAL and Cathay Pacific are two that have access to that. So their program is called Asia Miles.

So you open up an Asia Miles account, which is free. Which is, which is free. And you would pursue those banks who have relationships with Asian Miles. I believe it's MX, Cap 1, and C. I'll have relations, meaning you can transfer points into there. and you want to pursue the single bank that has a relationship with JAL, which is capital one. We currently have a bonus of 30%. So understanding those relationships, you can earn points from many, many banks and many, many programs,

but what program do these points need to be sitting in? What bucket so I can book the ticket? What's the bucket they need to be in, buy when to book that ticket? And that's really the mechanism to make this happen. So explain the window thing to me. So around that time, 330 days before, you're going to call the airlines? Some airlines. So really, it's the loyalty program.

So the place that you deposit earn points into and the place you pull the points from is the loyalty program. They own the Ord inventory. So if you look at Delta, Sky Team is their alliance. Delta owns its own inventory for its own flights. They also share some inventory on their partners here, France, Virgin Atlantic, but the loyalty program determines on whose planes, whether it's their own planes or a partner planes, one inventory gets made available. So you've got to get your points in that loyalty program. You have to know when is the highest propensity for award seats to be released on that program for the destination that you want to go to. Of course, you have to know how much it costs.

Generally, these award charts are static in terms of price, don't change for anything. much. From time to time, there's an overnight inflation or a price increase, which you have to watch out for. But if you, if you're loyal to the right programs that have a low propensity to do that, you're somewhat, I guess, immune from inflation. Airline loyalty is an interesting thing in chasing status, because that runs a lot of people, you talk with them about that a lot. Like, a lot of people, oh, I've got to make gold, I got to make diamond, I've got to whatever make. And you're not a big fan of chasing status. Well, I, you know, we, we We, as a test method last year, we earned advantage executive platinum, like the highest status, except for concierge key, which is invite only. And so we did it by flying zero miles. On Americans. Right. Tell them how you did that. So with meal kits.

Yeah. Well, so they're Americans program rewards. And Delta is getting more this way. It's, they have partnerships, anywhere from meal kits to hoteliers to. different tangential travel companies to muffin manufacture. So if you're a partner ecosystem and you spend your money using a city car, city AAA card, you will earn this concept of loyalty points. And if you reach

150,000 is it? You become city executive platinum. So I found a way by looking at all their partners and all their price lists of their stuff. And I did, okay, combination of what's the cheapest, what's the most utility to the family. So don't buy junk just to get stat to buy something that has high utility to the family and which gives you the biggest multiple of those points. So I built like a little three-way algorithm and I found out a technique where I could buy over and over and over again.

And we made executive platinum. By eating dinner. So, but that's great news. But then, you know, what's the benefit of that? It's not going to get upgraded with. my super diamond elite status or am i and i sit there like number three or four on the upgrade list and be sitting in the same darn seat everyone else's and so the challenges you even see it in delta they by strategy no longer upgrade these diamonds because why i can come as a non-status

member the day of or the day before i can check in and i can get a cash promo pushed to my mobile phone oh upgrade your coach ticket for 299 and i cut the knees out of the hard loyal to earn or who's working so hard to earn double triple diamond, and I come in as a no one, and I spend a very little amount of money, and I get you the seat that they should be giving to you. Dude. That's nice. I think a lot of people also hoard their points. They do.

Well, they hoard them because of a per se of value, and they will have value. But if you're hoarding points without the plan to redeem them. Because they could lose value at any minute. Well, I mean, they, you know, I think the big, the big. big debate in the points in mile space and part of it is the incentive to keep buying my credit card keep clicking my link i get $200 in my pocket every time you apply and get approved that's part of the driver so what they'll say is use your points because they keep devaluing overtime steadily and while that might be true on its face the point the value of a

point is always a function of the value of the retail price of the ticket and so as ticket prices have gone up 10, 20, 30% over the past three years, and the award pricing remains constant. The value of your point, of your unspent point, is even higher now than it was. We end our episodes you guys know with a tip that listeners can take straight to the bank. Is there another one we haven't extracted yet? I think earning points in miles, there are several techniques to do it, the largest and quickest, most efficient way, If through credit card signups, there are other ways we didn't get into very much other than the Capital One. I think signing up for credit cards is a serious business.

So self-examine, will you pay your statement in time, you know, or will you borrow against it, right? And so look at your own self-finance. Do you have enough cash to spend $5,000 in a 90-day period to get 80,000, 100,000 bonus points? So self-discipline is super important because it's 25% interest rates, you know, compounding monthly. It's too expensive to screw up. So credit is really important. You know, be careful.

I think the number one tip is go to one of the publicly traded, go to Equifax Experian, trans union, do a self-assessment check. Don't click on their credit card links because they offer inferior credit cards and they haven't asked you the top four questions. So don't buy from someone who hasn't qualified you. So do a self-check. Look at number of accounts you have open, look at your credit score, any delinquencies. You'll get healthy first because you'll need that to buy a house.

You'll need that to buy a car to get the best rates. You need that state of bankruptcy. So, yeah, look at that, treat credit as an asset, but treat it seriously and don't get overextended. Don't go into debt for points. Money Rehab is a production of Money News Network. I'm your host, Nicole Lapin. Money Rehab's executive producer is Morgan LaVoy.

Our researcher is Emily Holmes. Do you need some money rehab? And let's be honest, we all do. So email us your money questions, money rehab at money newsnetwork.com to potentially have your questions answered on the show or even have a one-on-one intervention with me. And follow us on Instagram at Money News and TikTok at Money News Network for exclusive video content. And lastly, thank you.

No, seriously, thank you. Thank you for listening and for investing in your sales. which is the most important investment you can make.