Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin - How Much Is a Hit Song Worth? with Musician Skylar Grey

Episode Date: October 7, 2023

Originally aired 7/20/22 The music business is one of the most cut-throat, complicated and capital-intensive industries in the world. To give Nicole an insider perspective on the biz is Skylar Grey; singer, songwriter, musician extraordinaire who has written and co-written mega hits like Love the Way You Lie, Clarity, Gangsta— so many award-winning-critically-acclaimed-certified bops. Skylar shares her experience with record deals, releasing independent albums, selling her catalog during her divorce, and what it all has to do with Taylor Swift. For more Skylar, click here: https://skylargreymusic.com/ 

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I always want to line up a reservation for my house when I'm traveling for work, but sometimes I just don't get around to it because getting ready to travel always feels like a scramble, so I don't end up making time to make my house look guest-friendly. I guess that's the best way to put it. But I'm matching with a co-host so I can still make that extra cash while also making it easy on myself. Find a co-host at airbnb.com slash host. One of the most stressful periods of my life was when I was in credit card debt. I got to a point where I just knew that I had to get it under control for my financial future and also for my mental health. We've all hit a point where we've realized it was time to make some serious money moves. So take control of your finances by using a Chime checking account with features like no

maintenance fees, fee-free overdraft up to $200, or getting paid up to two days early with direct deposit. Learn more at Chime.com slash MNN. When you check out Chime, you'll see that you can overdraft up to $200 with no fees. If you're an OG listener, you know about my infamous $35 overdraft fee that I got from buying a $7 latte and how I am still very fired up about it. If I had Chime back then, that wouldn't even be a story. Make your fall finances a little greener by working toward your financial goals with Chime. Open your account in just two minutes at Chime.com slash MNN. That's Chime.com slash MNN. Chime feels like progress. Banking services and debit card provided by the Bancorp Bank N.A. or Stride Bank N.A. Members FDIC. SpotMe eligibility requirements and overdraft limits apply. Boosts are available Hey guys, are you ready for some money rehab? Wall Street has been completely upended by an unlikely player, GameStop.

And should I have a 401k? You don't do it? No, I never do it. You think the whole world revolves around you and your money. Well, it doesn't. Charge for wasting our time. I will take a check. Like an old school check. You recognize her from anchoring on CNN, CNBC, and Bloomberg.

The only financial expert you don't need a dictionary to understand. Nicole Lappin. I have such a treat for you. Today and tomorrow, I'm releasing my conversation with the amazingly talented singer-songwriter-musician Skylar Gray. You've probably heard Skylar's work in many different ways. You've heard the hits she's co-written and written like Love the Way You Lie, performed by Rihanna and Eminem, and Clarity, performed by Zedd, Walk on Water, performed by Eminem and Beyonce. You've also probably heard her perform her own songs on the radio or on TV shows like Hulu's Four Weddings

at a Funeral and movies like Aquaman. The music business is one of the most cutthroat, complicated, and capital-intensive industries in the world. And we are so lucky to have Skylar on the show to decode it all for us and share her experience with record deals, releasing independent albums, selling her catalog, and what it all has to do with Taylor Swift. I cannot say enough good things about Skylar. She is smart and warm and open, and the conversation was so fascinating that our producer Mike jumped in with a few questions of his own. Here's the first part of the conversation. Skylar, welcome to Money Rehab. Thank you. Thanks for having me. We've had so many different types of guests on the show from all sorts of industries,

the beauty industry, fashion, finance, the Olympics, but we've never had a singer, songwriter, musician extraordinaire. So I'm very, very excited to be talking with you today. Never forget your first. Wow. We love giving listeners a glimpse into the behind the scenes, follow the money trail, look at different careers. So I don't know much about songwriting. I'm excited to learn more. So I'd love to start with your songwriting career. I do want to get into your latest album and what's coming up next. But as a career path, it's a track I don't know much about. So how did you get started as a songwriter? I honestly don't remember anything else. Like, I grew up in a very musical family. My mom was a Celtic harpist, folk singer. She plays like

every instrument. And then my dad was in a barbershop quartet. So as soon as I was born, I was singing pretty much. And they put me on stage when I was six, uh, like for a professional, my first professional gig. So my first paycheck of six, um, yeah, it was a mother's day show at a library. Yeah. And my mom and I, um, started a little duo called generations. Oh, makes sense. Um, and we performed together for, um, I don't know, till I was about 14. I went solo when I was 14. Um, but six to 14, made three independent albums with my mom. We toured, um, pretty much just around the Midwest, doing shows at elementary schools, libraries, like birthday parties, you know. And so that's how I got my start in like the professional music scene, even though it was very small potatoes. So when it got to big potatoes or bigger potatoes, how does that work? Do you get

signed to a label and you write for artists on that label or are you a free agent? Well, for me, I grew up in Wisconsin, which isn't the music capital of the world. So when I went solo at 14, I started my own band and started playing gigs in Madison, Wisconsin, and pretty quickly realized that if I wanted to make a real career out of stuff to, and to live there. Um, but paid for producers to make me some demos that ended up getting me signed. And then what happens after you get signed? I got a record deal. I honestly didn't really know what a record deal was when I got one the first time. Um, I was so naive and green, like touring with my mom was an amazing experience, you know, learning how to perform and communicate with an audience. And you know, we, we even set up our own, um, sound systems and sold our own merch at every show. Yeah. It was like, uh, we did it all. Um, but then when I got into the, you know, big leagues, I didn't know what the hell I was doing. Um, yeah. So

I got my first record deal and it was actually through a chain of just, you know, networking events. So I, I was in a recording studio making these demos and I ran into some dude in the hallway who was like, you need a lawyer and a manager. And I was like, okay, introduce me to somebody. And he introduced me to a lawyer who introduced me to a manager who got my demos to Lincoln Park, the band Lincoln Park. And I was, I think, 18 at the time and I met up with the guitar player from from Lincoln Park at a hotel lobby where there was a piano and I played him a song on the piano and pretty much got offered a record deal on the spot um and but I didn't know what it was and I remember them being like why aren't you more excited about this I was like I just don't't know what it was. And I remember them being like, why aren't you more excited about this? I was like,

I just don't even know what it means. Um, so I had to learn, you know, through experience and basically learned that a record deal is the, it's like a bank loan. They're, they also, you know, help with, um, marketing promotion. They have a lot of, you know, they have a huge team. I was, it was a, I was on a subsidiary label of Warner Brothers through Lincoln Park. So we got to utilize Warner Brothers, the team. And so there's a lot of really smart people and connected people, but then at the end of the day, it's really just, you know,

they're putting up a bunch of money to pay for you to go on tour, to pay for you to make music videos, to pay for your recordings. Cause every song costs money. You got to pay a producer. You got to pay for studio time. So all these different things that I couldn't afford. And so you're, and then as you sell music and, and make money back, you recoup all those costs and pay them back. Like you're and then as you sell music and and make money back you recoup all those costs and pay them back like you're you're paying your bank back for the loan and then after you pay back everybody then there's a split and the split's not very favorable for the artist but at the same time, it's like without that first initial boost from a label, it's really hard to break through, you know?

So you win some, you lose some. But always talk to dudes in the hallway. Always talk to dudes in the hallway because you never know where it might lead. And how does the payment work? Do you get a flat fee and then get paid when the song is licensed when you're writing for someone? Or is it similar to the advance system you talked about with signing? So pretty much when it comes to songwriting, it's mailbox money. And so you're making royalties. And so you're doing mostly everything on spec. Some people charge an upfront fee to get in the room and write a song. I don't do that.

I like to just let the art speak for itself. And if a song's really good, it'll do something, go somewhere and make some money. And it usually takes about three quarters of a year to start seeing payments from a song that's released. three quarters of a year to start seeing payments from a song that's released. So, so when you write a song, um, it's, you know, it's just a song gets cut by an artist and then it's released. That's like a long time period right there too. Sometimes I write, um, a song and it takes, I mean, I have thousands of songs that haven't been cut yet, but like I just did a Venom 2, the end title song for that movie. But the song was written

about five years ago, finally found a home as the end title of this movie. We finished it up and that came out last, I guess, November. So I haven't seen any royalty checks from it yet. They will come three quarters after the release date. They'll start trickling in. Interesting. Thank you for helping us follow the money trail of this world. Yeah. So in your experience, have you sometimes written a song and think, no, no, no, no, no, this one is just for me. No one else is going to get this. Oh yeah, definitely. Um, cause I've

made the mistake of giving some of my favorite songs away before. Just, it's not a mistake. It's, you know, everything's meant to be no regrets, but, um, there's definitely songs I look back on and, you know, wish I would have kept them. So now I'm more precious. Which ones? I mean, I guess love the way you lie. I mean, I'm happy I gave it away. I am not regretting that at all. I was completely broke at the time. It was like after my first record deal

and everything fell apart, you know, I failed miserably the first time around and I was completely broke, no money to my name, not even like a dollar. And I was living in this cabin in the woods and, um, up in Oregon. And I met a producer over email and we created that song. And then it was like a month after the song was created, it was a number one song in the world. And I was back on my feet again, like making money and whatever. So, um, I don't regret it, but I did not write it with the intention that somebody else was going to sing it. You know, no shame in getting out of that cabin life and feeding yourself. Exactly. We do the best we can with the information we have. And Rihanna is amazing. I am obsessed with her. She's like one of my favorite artists. So it's completely experience necessarily to the music industry. I

think a lot of people in different industries often feel like they can't move to different roles in their companies or industries because their bosses or supervisors see them as only doing one thing. So for someone in that position, what kind of advice would you give them? I mean, I mean, I'm going through it right now. I'm trying to figure it out. So I don't necessarily have the answers, but what I'm doing is I'm just sticking to my guns and I'm actually turning down a lot of things saying no a lot. Um, because if I just keep saying yes, I'm just going to keep putting myself in that category in that box. So to get out of that box, I need to say no, turn things down and really just forge ahead on the path that

I want to be on. Even if I don't have a full support group around me yet with it, I think patience will bring that team around me and that support group. No more to the box you don't want to be in. And yes, more to the box you do want to be in. Exactly. Hold on to your wallets, boys and girls. Money Rehab will be right back. I love hosting on Airbnb. It's a great way to bring in some extra cash. But I totally get it that it might sound overwhelming to start or even too complicated if, say, you want to put your summer home in Maine on Airbnb, but you live full time in San Francisco and you can't go to Maine every time you need to change sheets for your guests or something like that. If thoughts like these have been holding you back, I have great news for you. Airbnb has launched a co-host network, which is a network of high quality local co-hosts

with Airbnb experience that can take care of your home and your guests. Co-hosts can do what you don't have time for, like managing your reservations, messaging your guests, giving support at the property, or even create your listing for you. I always want to line up a reservation for my house when I'm traveling for work, but sometimes I just don't get around to it because getting ready to travel always feels like a scramble, so I don't end up making time to make my house look guest-friendly. I guess that's the best way to put it. But I'm matching with a co-host so I can still make that extra cash while also making it easy on myself. Find a co-host at Airbnb.com slash host.

One of the most stressful periods of my life was when I was in credit card debt. I got to a point where I just knew that I had to get it under control for my financial future and also for my mental health. We've all hit a point where we've realized it was time to make some serious money moves. So take control of your finances by using a Chime checking account with features like no maintenance fees, fee-free overdraft up to $200, or getting paid up to two days early with direct deposit. Learn more at Chime.com slash MNN. When you check out Chime, you'll see that you can overdraft up to $200 with no fees. If you're an OG listener, you know about my infamous $35 overdraft fee that I got from buying a $7 latte and how I am still

very fired up about it. If I had Chime back then, that wouldn't even be a story. Make your fall finances a little greener by working toward your financial goals with Chime. Open your account in just two minutes at Chime.com slash MNN. That's Chime.com slash MNN. Chime. Feels like progress. Banking services and debit card provided by the Bank Corp. Bank N.A. or Stride Bank N.A. Members FDIC. SpotMe eligibility requirements and overdraft limits apply. Boosts are available to eligible Chime members enrolled in SpotMe and are subject to monthly limits.

Terms and conditions apply. Go to Chime.com slash disclosures for details now for some more money rehab you released your latest album independently was that part of the thinking oh yeah for sure like so i partnered with interscope two or three years ago, and it was a very amicable split. We just weren't seeing eye to eye creatively. And, um, so I, I've been independent for a few years now and I'm trying to navigate the

waters. Cause since I was 18 or 19, I've been signed to major labels pretty much. And, um, so, and it's a whole new world of like technology and everything since I was a kid making independent music for my mom. So, um, it's been a lot. Yeah. It's been a lot to learn, you know, how to get my music out there and market it and do all this stuff without a manager, without a label. Um, I'm even shipping my own merch out of my house, packing and shipping boxes. Um, but it's a great experience to like learn all the ins and outs of every angle of my career,

because now I have this kind of bird's eye view of everything going on. And so when I bring a team member in now to, to help elevate it. Um, I really have a good understanding of what's really going on. Yeah. Cause you know what it's like to literally pack the boxes. Exactly. So that's good. And I think, um, the reason, you know, things maybe fall, it fell apart with my label and my managers is exactly because I was putting my foot down and saying no to things that I didn't want to do and putting, you know, more emphasis on the yes box. And that turns some people off, you know, and you just have to fight through that and forge ahead no matter what. And now I'm starting to see a lot of people, you know, more interested in what I'm doing and wanting to help and wanting to be supportive.

And so it's coming full circle. And because obviously after listening to this interview, listeners are going to drop everything they're doing. And if they're not, they should. And listen to your latest album, Skylar Grey. Which song should they start with? To me, the whole album's like a journey so I think they should start with the first song and just see where it takes them it's called Runaway the first song I read that you're gonna try for an album a year yeah yeah you know it's

been six years or so since I dropped my last album, which makes no sense. If I'm trying to be an artist and get out of the songwriter box, isn't part of being an artist putting out albums? Like, I can't be waiting six years. I mean, if you could do an album here, get after it. That's awesome. I also read that you have a bit of a revengeful drive in you. I honestly don't have a question about that. I just think it's an awesome perspective and I can't wait to see you knock it out of the park. Yeah. I mean, it's just, it's because I, um, I went through a crazy lawsuit divorce over the past

five or so, whatever years, and I finally got out of it this past year. And so it's, it's been crazy, but, um, basically I had no idea when I got married that all of my intellectual property created during marriage would be up for, you know, being 50, 50 with my ex-husband. 50 50 with my ex-husband and it's just crazy to me to think that like just stuff I come up with in my own head in my studio and create is now 50 this other person's you know made no sense to me crazy so anyway turned into also a lawsuit that was bananas at the end we settled finally and I had to pay him a big check and the only way I could afford it was to sell my catalog which means all my publishing ownership of my songs that I've written for, actually, I sold everything from, everything that's been released, I guess,

until 2019 in my life. So everything post-2019 is mine, but everything prior, I sold. So I don't see those royalty checks that I was talking about earlier. I don't see those anymore. that I was talking about earlier. I don't see those anymore. So there's something very comforting to me about getting the mailbox money. It's like every few months you get a check and it's like keeping you going. It's like your salary, right?

Now I sold the rights to that salary basically. And so it's great. Cause I got a big check, but then I had to pay taxes and I had to pay my ex-husband. And then I'm left with, you know, not as much as I, not as much as I would hope for my life's work, you know? Um, but so that's where this revengeful streak is coming from it's not really revenge in the sense of like i want to get back at somebody i just i'm just highly motivated to to create a new catalog to write new music that is just as valuable as the stuff i sold and create this new you know collection of songs that i can live off of. And revenue stream and mailbox money or passive income. We are all about that here.

Yes. When I think of a catalog, though, I kind of, in my mind, picture like a filing cabinet with your name on it filled with beautiful music sheets. I know that's not what it's actually like. So what is it and what's the difference between owning your catalog or not? So the catalog is basically just your copyrights. So say like, um, I own 50% of a song that 50% that I own, I sold. So I don't remember how many, um, songs were in my catalog that I sold.

It was probably in the hundreds though of songs. Um, and they each have some, they, they do these kinds of like expert evaluations on the songs. They look at how much the song has made over a certain period of time and then they do these like multiples to see what it'll they predict it will earn over its lifetime into the future and then they make you an offer based on that but you'll always be credited for these songs, right? Yes. It's not like somebody can say, I didn't write songs suddenly. I did write the songs.

I do get the credit, but I don't get the money anymore. And what was that feeling like when you saw the estimates of your life's work? life's work? I mean, without talking about any numbers, I was a little underwhelmed, to be honest. But, you know, I think like if I had kept it and seen the revenue over the course of the life of all these songs, it would have been more than what I got, obviously. But that's okay. You have to make moves and move on. And it was the best move I could make in this chess game. I had to sell it and I had to pay off my ex

and be done with that. No more talking to lawyers every day. You know, it's worth it for my sanity to just be done with that. Well, that's invaluable. Yeah, exactly. And now, like I said, I haven't been this motivated to make new music in so long. When things are, when you're like successful everything's going smoothly

and it's it's almost like easy to get a little bit complacent with it and I I feel like I maybe was I also just for the past five years I was like what's the fucking point of making music if because I didn't know what was going to happen. I thought maybe he was going to try to claim 50% of everything I write going into the future. You know, there, it was a huge fight. It was a huge battle.

So I didn't know what was going to happen. So I was like, what's the point of making music? It's like, I was really depressed, you know, to work, to work my butt off every

day and then have to give half of it to somebody else it's like it's just really discouraging and um yeah so but also motivating on the flip side right to create now now i'm highly motivated because i got rid of that situation and I'm able to move on. And now I'm like suddenly out of nowhere, I have all this inspiration and I'm really excited to work and make music. And you get to keep everything moving forward. Yes. Everything since 2019 into the future is mine now. Success is the best revenge. i usually am allergic to cliches but i'm really good about this really is that's why that's what my whole thing is with like the

revengeful attitude i have it's the success is the best revenge thing i'm not trying to like be revengeful i just yeah it's vindicating yeah i here for it. Is there anything that you would change about the way songwriters make music in general or get paid? I think there's actually a lot of cool changes happening right now. And like, I see that people are doing some really great things about getting songwriters paid more. You know, it's hard with like streaming and TikTok and stuff, these new platforms playing all this music. And it's hard to figure out how to monetize that properly, but they're working on it.

I know that they're working on it. It's just not really my world. I'm not like a tech head and i don't know how it really works but um yeah because it just always seems like there's this understanding with musicians like i think that the taylor swift deal was one of the the first times i had seen it kind of spill into sort of like broader popular culture where people were talking about the actual deal involved and there was just like one camp of people that were just like yeah totally like whatever taylor wants you should get her whole all the money that because she wrote the

songs and there's this other camp of people who are just like kind of okay with this notion that musicians just get fucked on their first deals and and it's just like, that's the way it is. Yeah. I mean, I guess it's kind of true with any business you get into. You have to pay your dues. And it's not like you're instantly just going to be at the top of the food chain. You have to kind of work your way up in whatever business you're in. And so for me, I definitely had to sacrifice a lot when I first

started and with my deals, you know, I didn't necessarily get the best deals, but the benefit I got from them, um, was worth it to me. You know, we always like to complain about our labels when we're signed to them. And then we also complain about not having a label when we don't have one. And I'm in that situation right now where I'm like, I see all because, you know, you don't know what you have till it's gone. I see all the benefits of having a label and having somebody, yeah, maybe they own a bunch, but they are also, I'm not having to spend my own money to make a music video. If I'm signed to a label. Now I'm spending my own money taking all the risks myself and it can be a little bit more stressful. So a label can reduce the stress in

that sense, but then you can also keep you on the shelf and not put your music out, which is really difficult. And then they can own you for life and yada, yada. There's a lot of crazy things, And then they can own you for life and yada, yada. There's a lot of crazy things. But I think the best thing anybody can do is to get, before they sign any deal, to get as much leverage as possible. So building up their careers on their own as big as possible before signing the deal, getting some big opportunity. Like, for example, when I wrote

Love the Way You Lie, this was going into my second record deal. I had learned a lot by now. When I wrote Love the Way You Lie, I knew that I would have labels knocking on the door, but I waited and waited and waited and waited until after I performed on the Grammys with Dr. Dre and Eminem and Rihanna in 2011. Um, I didn't sign any record deals until after that, because I knew that I would have a lot more leverage at that point. So just being patient, waiting and knowing, you know, holding as much power as you can to negotiate the best deal for yourself rather than but you know at a certain time in my life I was just so desperate that I didn't care I just was like I need to have a support team and I have no money and

and I'll sign anything you know and and that was a certain time period in my life and it was worth it. So because I sold my publishing rights to Love the Way You Lie, Coming Home, Glorious, Clarity, like all my biggest hits, every time that they get used in a movie or whatever, I make no money on them anymore. I did get paid because I sold it. But you know, my story, I had to give so much away to my ex-husband in taxes that it's like, it really hurt. So I am in the process right now of re-recording versions of all of these songs. So basically pulling a Taylor Swift, just because, um, what, you know, a song is split into two pieces. The one piece is the songwriting.

And then the other piece is the recording. And all those songs, I did record my own versions of. Not all of them, but most of them. But I did it when I was signed to a label. Now that I'm independent, I will own those recordings. So the labels own the recordings of those versions of those songs. So I'm making new ones so that at least if a song gets used, one of these new recordings gets used in something, gets synced in a TV show or used in a commercial or even just streamed and sold, I'll at least make money on that master ownership side.

My publishing, I will still have to give away. But the master side, I'll be able to make some money on. So I'm currently in the process of recording all those. And hopefully, we'll be releasing a package of, I don't know if it'll be like five to ten songs later this year that is it's basically just you know my hits re-recorded publishing and masters what's the difference so publishing is writing so that's like the intellectual the melody the lyrics the ownership of the melody and lyric the master is the recording so the vocal the guitar part like not the part even just the

actual recording of the guitar the recording of the piano if you re-record it new piano new guitar it's a new master so i'm i'm re-recording everything so that i can at least own the master's side of the song because right now right now I own nothing of any of those. And I don't make any more money on those songs. But if I have these masters, at least I'll be able to get that half. Since you've sold the publishing for those songs, would you have to pay for the right to re-record them? So at that point, it's just considered a cover. And cover songs are legal.

Anybody can cover a song and release it. So you're covering your own song. I'm covering my own songs. Yes. How does that make you feel? I don't know. I'm really excited about it because I'm doing new versions that are really exciting and fun and different. For today's tip, you can take straight to the bank. Tune into tomorrow's episode for the second part of my conversation with Skylar, where we hear about how she found love after divorce again and again and again. But not in the way you might think.

Meet me back here tomorrow for the full story. Money Rehab is a production of iHeartRadio. I'm your host, Nicole Lappin. Our producers are Morgan Lavoie and Mike Coscarelli. Executive producers are Nikki Etor and Will Pearson. Our mascots are Penny and Mimsy. Huge thanks to OG Money Rehab team Michelle Lanz for her development work, Catherine Law for her production and writing magic,

and Brandon Dickert for his editing, engineering, and sound design. And as always, thanks to you for finally investing in yourself so that you can get it together and get it all.