Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin - How Republicans and Democrats are Getting Abortion Legislation Wrong with Marianne Williamson

Episode Date: July 14, 2022

Nicole chats with author, political activist and spiritual thought leader Marianne Williamson on the financial implications of overturning Roe v. Wade. The conversation around Roe v. Wade has been very neatly divided down party lines. Typically, we assume that Democrats are pro-choice and Republicans are pro-life, but as Marianne would argue— it’s not that simple, and not one political party gets it 100% right. In this episode, Marianne gives useful recommendations on abortion legislation, that notes room for improvement for both Republicans and Democrats.

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Hey guys, are you ready for some money rehab? Wall Street has been completely upended by an unlikely player, GameStop. And should I have a 401k? You don't do it? No, I never have. You think the whole world revolves around you and your money. Well, it doesn't. Charge for wasting our time. I will take a check.

Like an old school check. You recognize her from anchoring on CNN, CNBC, and Bloomberg. The only financial expert you don't need a dictionary to understand. Nicole Lappin. As we've talked about before on the show, the Supreme Court overturning Roe versus Wade is not just an ethical issue or a social issue. It's also a financial issue. To talk through the financial implications of abortion bans, I'm speaking with Marianne Williamson. Marianne is a legend, to say the least. You might know her from one of her 14 books, her several appearances on the Oprah

Winfrey Show, or from her campaign to be the Democratic nominee in the 2020 presidential election. Before we launch into the interview, I just want to say, Marianne is openly pro-choice, as am I. And so this conversation comes from a pro-choice perspective. But I think Marianne's voice is an extremely interesting voice to listen to on this issue, whether you're pro-choice or not. The conversation around Roe versus Wade has been very neatly divided down party lines. Typically, we assume that Democrats are pro-choice and Republicans are pro-life. But as Marianne would argue, it's not that simple and not one political party gets it 100% right. In our conversation, Marianne gives useful recommendations on abortion legislation that notes room for improvement for both Democrats and Republicans.

Let's get into it. Well, Marianne, welcome to Money Rehab. Hey, I'm happy to be here. Thank you for having me. So we are, of course, a money show. And most money shows, I've been an anchor on CNBC, they say they're not political. They're, of course, very conservative. We are a progressive show. And we believe that progressive issues like raising the minimum wage, supporting unionization, closing the gender wage gap, all contribute to a healthy economy. So from that lens, what do you see as some of the biggest economic and fiscal implications of overturning Roe? I really am so happy to hear you say what you're saying, because progressive economics is healthier

economics, because it is recognizing that money is not just something that's created by a bunch of corporate aristocrats and then dropped like crumbs from their table up on Mount Olympus somewhere. That whole economic idea of trickle down, which we now know did not lift all boats, but rather left millions of people without even a life vest. What you're pointing out is that money is created by the productivity and the creativity of the American people. So anything that you do to help people thrive, which has to do with education, which has to do with economic opportunity, which has to do with anything that allows people to show up at work every day, unburdened by terrible concerns, such as what am I going to do for healthcare? I'm only in this job,

even though I hate it, because it's the only one I can go to where I'll get the benefits. Or even though I went to school and took out all these college loans to work at one industry, I'm now working in another industry because if I do a startup job in the industry I want, I don't know how I'll ever pay off these college loans. So to me, what progressive economics is doing is riding this terrible ship that has listed. Well, the good news is I think that the American people, something is happening. Something has been happening. People are starting to figure this out. People are recognizing how much the system has been rigged against the average American. And then you asked me about Roe. I think the connection there is that at a time when, which will always be a time, you know, we're told that it's the job of every generation

to create a more perfect union. You create a more perfect union by expanding rights, by expanding justice. And we are living at a time where, at the behest of the Supreme Court, certainly, but also at the behest of other corporatists, mainly within the Republican Party, where we're actually constricting rights.

of other corporatists, mainly within the Republican Party, who were actually constricting rights. And that is the supreme danger of the Dobbs decision, in addition to what a horrifying humanitarian position this creates for millions of American women. And you've acknowledged that that's constricting rights for 18 years for a woman. You know, women with money or privilege or both will always be able to get an abortion. Making abortion illegal doesn't cut off abortion access. It only makes abortion more expensive, which pushes options further out of reach, of course, for low-income women. So does this intensify class warfare? Well, we need to go back a little bit to what you just said, because I've said it a thousand times,

as has everybody else. Oh, don't kid yourself. Rich women will still be able to get abortions. Not so easy. This is not going back to pre-Roe. This is worse than pre-Roe because they are actually, man, these people are getting down. They want to criminalize. They want to criminalize anything that has to do with helping a woman get an abortion. They want to criminalize, in some cases, if you are a Lyft driver or an Uber driver and you hear a woman saying she's going to get an abortion so a woman's money is not going to be enough to uh to just create easy access in the way that i do believe was true pre-ro so if you take the the general issue of a woman with money um that could make it happen and then you add on to that oh not necessarily it's class system. It's into the realm of tyranny. Will that erase our collective progress, do you think, on the gender wage gap and the gender wealth gap? Well, as you mentioned, whether or not a woman gives birth to a child says a lot

about what she will do for the next 18 years of her life. This is huge. I mean, obviously, what they say is, well, she could give it up for adoption as though, oh, that's no big deal. So obviously what these people want to do, whether this is recognized consciously or not, is a deep misogynistic desire to have women under their control and a woman with fewer options for her life. And it will, it's beyond just wage gap. It's power gap. It's resources gap. It's choices gap. Everything that everybody's been saying for so long, it could happen. We were in the middle of, it's not like there could be a constitutional crisis. We are in the midst of everything that we have been warning each other about. We've now moved into it's happening. It's not like, oh, this ensue, threatening personal financial security. I'm sure you've seen the Turnaway study. We've reported on that, tracking the economic impact of women who

were turned away for abortions. And of those women, the economic impact is real with credit scores, living in poverty, reports of bankruptcy, eviction, tax liens. I mean, all of this is real quantifiable data and ramifications. How do you foresee more economic impact in the years to come after this? First of all, I think we all need to take a step back and we need to step out of our silos. We need to step out of our silos, not only in terms of identities, but also in terms of issues. You know, this word intersectionality, it's all of a piece. So it's not even just about Roe. It's about anything that is an attack on the basic fundamentals of democracy, the basic fundamental that all men, which as we know, we've now codified means all women, to mean all men,

all women, all binary, all people who don't consider themselves either one, straight, gay, transgender, Black, brown, white, Jewish, Christian, Muslim, atheist. That's the larger picture that in America, anyone should basically do whatever they want to do. And they should be whoever they want to be as long as it does not hurt someone else. And that's what we have to make a stand for, because what's happening now is that we're playing whack-a-mole. Today it's Roe. Next week it's the disempowering the EPA. The next week it's attack on transgender. I think that we need to recognize this is all an attack on democracy. And I think that's important in terms of when you say, what

do we do? So much of the work right now is processing all this. So much of the work is thinking all this through. It's just like anything else in life. Individually, we do it and we need to do it collectively, which we have to say, wait, how many times in our own individual lives we go, wait, I have to think about this. I have to really think this through. I'm going to think it's true before I send an email. I'm going to think it through before I decide what to do. Hold on to your wallets, boys and girls. Money rehab will be right back. One of the most stressful periods of my life was when I was in credit card debt. I got to a point where I just knew that I had to get it under control for

my financial future and also for my mental health. We've all hit a point where we've realized it was time to make some serious money moves. So take control of your finances by using a time checking account with features like no maintenance fees, fee-free overdraft up to $200, or getting paid up to two days early with direct deposit. Learn more at Chime.com slash MNN. When you check out Chime, you'll see that you can overdraft up to $200 with no fees. If you're an OG listener, you know about my infamous $35 overdraft fee that I got from buying a $7 latte and how I am still very fired up about it. If I had Chime back then, that wouldn't even be a story. Make your fall finances a little greener by working toward your financial goals with Chime. Open your account in just two minutes

at Chime.com slash MNN. That's Chime.com slash MNN. Chime feels like progress. Banking services and debit card provided by the Bancorp Bank N.A. or Stride Bank N.A. Members FDIC. Spot me eligibility requirements and overdraft limits apply. Boosts are available to eligible Chime members enrolled in Spot Me and are subject to monthly limits. Terms and conditions apply. Go to Chime.com slash disclosures for details.

Now for some more money rehab. I love listening to the words you choose. And as a writer, you're so deliberate and precise with those words. And it sounds like poetry to me, so I can listen to you speak forever. But I'd like your opinion. I think in this would be the bridge between Roe and greater issues with democracy is the rhetoric that's been used around this. I mean, being pro life sounds overwhelmingly positive. You're actually, I think you've called the side anti-choice rather than pro-life. I've never been pro-abortion. I've talked openly about my own. It was the worst day of my life. I don't think anyone is pro-abortion, but it's really about this rhetoric war that's

been won. So how would you change the framing of this issue and others? As you say, pro-choice does not mean quote-unquote pro-abortion. I find a casual abortion, that is as much of a moral anathema to me as it is to any right winger. But to me, the issue of abortion is an issue of private morality, not public morality. And I don't believe that the government, with the exception of sex with children, I don't believe the government has any right in your bedroom or any right to tell you what you have to do with your body or cannot do with your body. That that is not the government's business. And that is privacy issue. That is civil liberties issue. I feel that over the last few decades,

that over the last few decades, there has been some militancy on the left in the form of unwillingness to have any level of moral conversation about abortion. Many of the people who were the voices sort of determining how we were all supposed to do this felt that any acknowledgement that there was a moral issue here was a slippery slope. We couldn't go there, which I think was very stupid. Because what I found, and I even found as a political candidate, is how many people who are uncomfortable with the idea of abortion, but also don't want to think government is about overreach, were very grateful when I would say, of course, it's a moral issue,

but it's an issue of private morality, not public morality. And I can't tell you how many people would say, right, so you just get it's a moral issue, right? I said, of course. Okay, I just wanted to know. President Clinton, the language he used was that the goal of his administration regarding abortion was safe, legal, and rare. I had no problem with that. I thought that was kind of good.

It was people on the left who criticized him for that. Who is he to say they should be rare? So, I mean, on some level, there has got to be some willingness to have some nuanced conversation, which always includes the includes the moral. If you look at how this issue is dealt with in other countries, such as Germany and others in Europe, as part of their reproductive rights laws, recognize psychological factors. recognize psychological factors. So for instance, someone will meet with the woman, know that she's doing this on her own volition, knowing that she recognizes what her choices are. And the abortion clinic and that psychotherapeutic clinic aren't even the same building.

Once the abortion clinic gets a note, basically, an okay from the psychotherapeut recognize some of the ways that our arguments have not worked and be willing to modify, not our values, not what we stand for, but our willingness to have a deeper understanding, not agreement with, but understanding of those with whom we do not agree. People want to feel heard. And when people do feel heard, there's a lot more room for change. But when people feel that they are unheard or a priori disregarded, you're going to have a difficult time making political change. And when you talk about this nuance, I think that's really important. You talked about a private morality issue and then, you know, conservatives are like, gotcha.

It's a moral issue. No, no, it's it's a nuanced issue. No, no, it's a nuanced issue. I think it is a moral issue. I don't have any problem as I'm adamantly pro-choice and I have no problem saying it's a moral issue. To me, it is a moral issue, but between a woman and her God. And in addition to that, I trust the moral decision-making of the American woman. Look, any issue, we've all heard these horrifying stories of women who just look at it like no big deals, nothing bigger than a pap smear. That's not where the vast majority of women are coming from. A lot of women feel the moral decision is to not have this child since I can't afford it right now. So I just think people's conversation with their own conscience, with their own ethics, with their own God, as well as their

own doctor, is nothing for government to have any right to weigh in on. And how would you advise the Democratic Party, which I assume you're mad at right now? Although, if we can get the Democrats to be stronger than weak, I suppose that's the side that we would choose versus what did you call the right the abusers? So I would what would you call the right the abusers so i would what would you say to the democratic party to to try and win this rhetoric war that's clearly been lost well when you have someone like nancy pelosi sending a fundraising text one hour after the decision came down when everybody knows she was down in Texas supporting Henry Cuellar, who is the last pro-choice, quote unquote, pro-life, anti-choice Democrat.

So then she's saying to raise money because we have to make sure that the Democrats win in November so they will codify Roe, even though they've had a lot of chance to codify Roe. What would I say to the entire group of Democratic leadership in the House and Senate? Resign now for the sake of your country and apologize while you're walking out the door. That, however, is not going to happen. I think they are aware that AOC was the only leader on this issue in this last week. They've got to be tearing their hair out in the White House, screaming, AOC was president this week. Frickin' A, guys. She sure as hell was. And there's something else about the fact that she was. Everything that she said she wants to do, we can't do. Everybody knows that. But she said what we would fight for. She said what we would

do if we could. And she was the only one who was a leader. Everybody else was a fundraiser or a vote harder. It's terrible. It's a debacle, just a debacle in the way they handled it. And unfortunately, everybody knows that. So it just does not bode well for November. Which politicians beyond AOC, I suppose, or political hopefuls give you hope, if any. Well, I think anybody who's not towing the line with the neoliberal establishment, obviously Bernie. I think Elizabeth's been out there on the on the Roe issue, on the Dobbs decision. Elizabeth Warren has been out there. AOC has been out there. Anybody to me who's saying the obvious you know but most of them are even now you know looking at 24 and saying well we support Joe but then although if Joe doesn't run that'll all come out of the woodwork if you're criticizing the president or

you're pointing out as the AOC does that you wanted to do something. Your problem is not your messaging. The problem is your policies. The president, especially with COVID, he could have declared a medical emergency and expanded to Medicare for everyone right away. He could declare a climate emergency and provide a warp speed to a green economy. He could, with the stroke of his pen, cancel student debt. If they want to win, do something for people. Do something that will make them want to show up and vote for you. And so those of us who've been screaming about these things, the normies, what we call the democratic normies, think that's negative. I don't see anything negative about yelling fire if the house is burning down.

Are you going to run again? I don't know. I don't know. But I'm thinking. But a lot of people are thinking. You've talked about the importance of state level politics. And while they might not be as sexy as presidential politics, that needs to change. How do we change that then? How would you recommend listeners get involved not only by voting, but by running for office? your personal life one aha at a time as you just said we've all you know the left loves the presidential they're filled with adrenaline they're hot and sexy and was like midterms okay and state just is kind of boring well people are smart though people are not stupid and we get what's going on now this this is why uh ultra right-wing forces want to send everything back

to the states not because they are some uh they have great respect for Alexander Hamilton and the laboratories of reform. That's not what this is about for them. This is about the fact that they know instead of making us have to fight one on one front, make them have to fight on 50. They know what they're doing. This is not respect for states' rights. This is a way to divide us and separate us and our efforts, to battle us. But if you're talking about Roe right now, sorry, it's going to be on the state level now. So you can scream about that and get all crazy about it. But the issue of personal and political maturity here is to do something about it. My hope on the day that this decision came down was that there were many, many women in this country who said to themselves, that's it,

I'm running for office. You know, I speak sometimes at seminaries. I spoke once at Harvard Divinity School. And during the day of my talk, I met with some of the Harvard Divinity students there. And I was really surprised by how few of them, I'm not even sure there were any of them, who actually want to go into the ministry or the rabbinate or anything. They want to be social workers. They're getting a divinity degree not to have a pulpit. And I thought that was so weird. Not weird, but I thought almost unfortunate because I think pulpits matter. I see the same thing in politics. I see so many people who are so involved in political issues, but haven't taken the step yet to, I'm going to run. And one of the reasons I think is because the whole thing is so corrupt

and people know it. You know, Governor Pritzker, for instance, who I think has been saying really great things over the last few days about the gun issue. So this is not to show any disrespect for him, because I think that what he was saying was really cool. He spent $120 million of his own money running for governor in Illinois. The money in politics has made it so difficult for people who don't either have money or some public platform that enables them to get in the game or real progressives, like you mentioned, who find that when they even try the kind of neoliberal corporatist establishment Democratic Party doesn't even want them there. You know, the Republicans serve their base. The Democrats, the Democratic leadership, they don't even like their base. You know, I've been saying it for a long time. You have to audition to be considered a Democrat.

They have this very elite, you know, it's ironic, isn't it? Because the Republicans have the elite policies, but almost an ironically more egalitarian relationship with their own constituency. Democrats are the opposite, the more egalitarian policies, but this elitist, paternalistic attitude towards their own constituency, which is why, of course, they suppress Bernie and a few other examples that I know about of the things that they will do to get rid of people they don't want in the game. For today's tip, you can take straight to the bank. In yesterday's episode, we talked about ways you could take political action. But as Marianne reminds us, we also need to take time to process. For many people, the Supreme Court decision to overturn Roe v. Wade

is deeply emotional and sometimes traumatic. If that's you, I strongly urge you to give yourself license to take care of yourself. And if that means taking time for some self-care at home before heading to the front of the picket lines, that's okay. We have a long road ahead of us, and we will never get to where we need to go if we don't take breaks along the way. Money Rehab is a production of iHeartRadio. I'm your host, Nicole Lappin. Our producers are Morgan Lavoie and Mike Coscarelli. Executive producers are Nikki Etor and Will Pearson.

Our mascots are Penny and Mimsy. Huge thanks to OG Money Rehab team Michelle Lanz for her development work, Catherine Law for her production and writing magic, and Brandon Dickert for his editing, engineering, and sound design. And as always, thanks to you for finally investing in yourself so that you can get it together and get it all.