Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin - How Sona Movsesian Became the "World's Worst Assistant" to Conan O'Brien

Episode Date: April 11, 2023

Today, Nicole is joined by Sona Movsesian, cohost of the podcast Conan O'Brien Needs a Friend, Conan O’Brien’s longtime assistant and New York Times bestselling author. This conversation has a little bit of everything: pranks involving unlikely celebrities, a Human Centipede reference and thoughtful advice on how to take advantage of the opportunities in your work. Find Sona's book here: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/675609/the-worlds-worst-assistant-by-sona-movsesian/

One of the most stressful periods of my life was when I was in credit card debt. I got to a point where I just knew that I had to get it under control for my financial future and also for my mental health. We've all hit a point where we've realized it was time to make some serious money moves. So take control of your finances by using a Chime checking account with features like no maintenance fees, fee-free overdraft up to $200, or getting paid up to two days early with direct deposit. Learn more at Chime.com slash MNN. When you check out Chime, you'll see that you can overdraft up to $200 with no fees. If you're an OG listener, you know about my infamous $35 overdraft fee that

I got from buying a $7 latte and how I am still very fired up about it. If I had Chime back then, that wouldn't even be a story. Make your fall finances a little greener by working toward your financial goals with Chime. Open your account in just two minutes at Chime.com slash MNN. That's Chime.com slash MNN. Chime. Feels like progress. Banking services and debit card provided by the Bancorp Bank N.A. or Stride Bank N.A. Members FDIC. SpotMe eligibility requirements and overdraft limits apply. Boosts are available to eligible Chime members enrolled in SpotMe and are subject to monthly limits. Terms and conditions apply. Go to Chime.com slash disclosures for details.

I'm Nicole Lappin, the only financial expert you don't need a dictionary to understand. It's time for some money rehab. Today, I'm interrupting our coverage of Supreme Court shenanigans and tax crunch time for some fun. And this episode starts with my firm belief that assistants are some of the world's most underappreciated workers in any industry. Assistants are literally who keep the earth turning. If there was some sci-fi encounter where all of the assistants in the world got transported to another planet, earth as far as we know it would end. I am sure of it. So here's an episode for the assistants and

aspiring assistants. The people who either want to be an executive in entertainment so they're getting their foot in the door, or the people who want to be career assistants because they like being the MVP in every room. Whoever you are, you are welcome because today I'm talking to the world's worst assistant, Sona Movsesian. And no, that's not a judgment on her. She's lovely and honestly the best. But it's what she calls herself in her book, literally titled The World's Worst Assistant. Check it out in the show notes.

Sona has been Conan O'Brien's assistant for over a decade and has some wonderful stories and lessons to share from that time. Also, a quick heads up, there is a reference to the human centipede movie in this conversation, which is kind of gross because any human centipede reference is kind of gross. But stick with it because I promise it turns out to be a bigger conversation about how assistants are treated in entertainment. Here's our conversation. Sona Movesessian. Did I say that right? You did. I'm very impressed. Not many people get it right on the first try. Thanks, Nicole. Thank you. I got you, sister. Welcome to Money Rehab. Thank you. It's so good to be here. I'm excited. I'm excited to have you.

You are the co-host of the critically acclaimed podcast Conan O'Brien Needs a Friend. You are his longtime assistant and wrote a super New York Times bestselling book called The World's Worst Assistant. Yes. After hearing about said book, I was like, we got to talk. I'm so glad you thought that because I'm really excited to talk to you about it. Yeah. But everything you said is is basically my career in a nutshell. Conan's assistant and then writing a book about being Conan's assistant. That's it. Well, I've heard the book described as you explaining your descent from eager, hardworking, ambitious, detail orientated, which I love,

assistant to self-awarded title holder for the worst in history, which as far as I can tell, I feel like that's hard to believe. You sound like the best. But I would like to start with that origin story and the hardworking, ambitious part of your journey. Let's go back. You were a page, right? I was. Yeah, I was a page in the you know, in the storied NBC page program. It's if anyone's watched 30 Rock, they know that Kenneth, the page was a page. I wore that exact same uniform, that blue polyester suit jacket, the tie, the white button down black tights.

I wore like that uniform for weeks. And then I got onto an assignment and I ended up working at NBC for a few years, which was a lot of fun. But yeah, it all started in the page program. It's a good program. I started as an assistant actually at NBC and I thought the pages were so cool because at the time I had one Ann Taylor suit that I wore every day, but the page's outfit was better. So when you applied to be a page, which I thought was the well-dressed version of me at the time, did you know you wanted to be an assistant? Like, how did you end up as Conan's assistant? What was that process like?

I don't think anybody gets into television thinking, I'm going to be an assistant forever. Like, I certainly didn't think I was going to get into TV and be like, I'm going to be an assistant forever. Like I certainly didn't think I was going to get into TV and be like, I'm going to be an assistant for 14 years. That's going to be my goal. I think everybody who starts in TV thinks, okay, I'm going to start here. And then I'm going to go up, up, up, up, up. And then eventually I'm just going to run this entire network. Um, and I think I started just like every other assistant thinking that I'll take assistant gigs that lead to other things, but I never thought it was going to be like a long-term job. But I mean, one of the times that I was actually super hyper-focused,

I think in my life was when I heard Conan was coming to LA to host the Tonight Show. And I remember just telling people very factually, I was like, I'm going to work for Conan O'Brien. And I think that that kind of manifested itself into actually happening because it's really hard to get a job on any late night show. So I just lucked out, I think.

So some manifestation. And then I heard during the interview, you asked if you could lie down. Yeah. So my second interview was with Conan himself, and then two of our producers, these two women, Tracy and Sarah. And it was a little intimidating, because it was the first time I was ever meeting Conan. So I walk in and he I think he could tell people were nervous. And on top of being nervous that you're meeting Conan, you're also nervous because you're interviewing for a job. So he's like, you know, this is casual,

just be just take it easy, just relax. And I was like, if it's casual, I was like, can I just lay down on the couch then? And everybody laughed. I mean, it's such a stupid joke, but everybody laughed. But later on, when I found out I got the job, the guy who called me and told me that I got it said, Oh, Conan really liked that you made a joke in the very beginning of the interview. And I was like, Oh my God, that's stupid couch joke. Just get me my, my job working for Conan. I think that it just made an impression on him. And I think it did. And I think it's, you know, it's like things that are like throwaways in an interview you don't think about that end up being the thing that gets you what you want, which is such a trip. It. And it was the joke about the couch. I know what's funny is it was like, foreshadowing, I think how lazy I was eventually going to get working as his assistant. And I think that's what makes it even funnier is that I eventually,

you know, did take advantage when he'd be at rehearsal, I would go into his office and actually lay down on his couch when he wasn't in there. So it sort of came true in a way. And we're like, you liked this about me. So I'm just gonna literally lean on into it. This is why you hired me. Yeah. I know everyone's favorite question to ask you is probably what is it like to work for Conan? Yeah. Working for Conan has been, you know, he's, in my opinion, just the funniest human being on the planet. And he loves to make people laugh that work for him and people just around. I think it's like a drug for him and for

people like him. So working for Conan is pretty much just laughing all day. That's it. I, you know, he's, he's a really good person. He's a great human being. He's become like family to me over all these years. So, you know, nowadays I do things for him because I want to do things for him more than it's my job. You know, it's, it's, it's a strange sort of shift that's kind of happened. But he's a really funny person. And he really legitimately cares about his employees. He's the best boss I've ever had. I mean, working for Conan has been great. That's why it's stuck around for so long. And why I probably will just continue working for him until he dies is, you know, just like be on that

payroll, milk it for all for all I can. I know that was morbid. I'm sorry, but it's all death to do us part. I think it might be helpful to like, explain more about what it's like through perhaps a story I was reading on a Reddit thread, which is, you know, where you get the hard hitting news about where you describe a time Conan asked you to set something up with a Michael Jackson post. Can you tell that story? So oh my god, Nicole, I'd only been working for him for like a few months. And so I didn't fully understand how his brain works and his sense of humor and everything. So he calls me, this is shortly after Michael Jackson passed away. And so Conan called me like he does every day when he comes into the office, he calls me and he goes through all the things that he needs for me

to do. And we go through his schedule and we, you know, it's a basic like assistant boss conversation. And then at one point he goes, okay, so do this, do this. And he's like, also, can you, um, he's like, I'm not sure how we're going to arrange this, but like call a few people and see if I can get some time alone with Michael to say goodbye. And it was just so sincere the way that he said it. It was so honest. He was just so straight about it. So I was like, Michael, I was like, Michael, Michael Jackson. And he goes, yeah. And I was like, okay, okay, okay. So I write down in my notes, I was like, Michael, Michael Jackson. And he goes, yeah. And I was like, okay, okay, okay. So I write down in my notes, I was like, you know, find a way for Conan to say goodbye to Michael Jackson, you know, like time alone with his body. And I write it down in my notebook. And then I'm like, you know, I hang up within him. I'm thinking like, how am I going to get

this done? And I'm like, I should call this person. I should call that person. And then he calls me back and he's like, oh, I forgot. Like he's a few more things. He's like, call my lawyer and ask her to do this. And he's like, also, I really want to adopt blanket. And that's when I knew he was joking. That's when I knew I was like, Oh my God, are you doing a bit? Do you, you don't want it? And he's like, do you think I was serious that I wanted time alone with Michael Jackson's body? I was like, no, I don't think I didn't think you were serious. Well, you said it seriously. The worst he came back, he saw it written in my notebook that I was like time alone with Michael Jackson's body to say goodbye, like how horrifying. But after that, I questioned

everything he asks me to do, even if it is serious. I'm just like, this is a bit. So that's what's happened because of that. And how can you tell now? Like, how common was the like deadpan Michael Jackson body story? And then like, at what point could you decipher the joke or like actual tasks? Can you describe the day to day you mentioned earlier? Yeah. like actual tasks? Can you describe the day to day you mentioned earlier?

Yeah, so I think moving forward, I realized 90% is bits and maybe 10% is legitimate. So I question everything if I am not sure if something is a bit or if it's real, then I like, I'll ask them to elaborate. And eventually, that's how I find out. But yeah, I mean, it changed. I was his day-to-day assistant when we were working at the show and now someone else has sort of taken over because I focus more on the podcasts that we do. So when we had the show, it was, he came in, he met with producers, he met with monologue writers, he went down to rehearsal and then he, you know, did a pre-show meeting, did the show, then a post-show meeting and then we would all go home and it was as far as production goes you know it was like a 10 to 6 day and we're

really lucky because most people who work on television shows work like 12 hour days but it was a very reasonable schedule and then when the pandemic hit we shipped it over to the Largo in West Hollywood which is a comedy club and we did the show from there with like a very reasonable schedule. And then when the pandemic hit, we shipped it over to the Largo in West Hollywood, which is a comedy club. And we did the show from there with like a very small crew of like 12 people. I think we did that until the end of the show. And now, you know, without the show, he allows himself to just be more open and available for other stuff and other projects and things. And that's basically what he does now. And it's a lot of the podcasts, we have a new building. So over the course of the 14 years working for him, my career has changed so much. You know,

I started off as the assistant for the host of The Tonight Show. And now I'm co host of a podcast with that person. Like it's just, it's just weird. Weird and awesome. Awesomely weird. Yes. Working as an assistant though is such a common track, right? In the entertainment sphere or, you know, agencies, you start in the mailroom or at NBC specifically as a page.

Would you recommend that like started from the bottom situation for someone interested in working in entertainment? Yeah. I don't know if there's a way you could start even higher. I mean, well, who did you assist when you were there? Like what department were you in? I was an intern at WNBC. And I got the internship by like, first going through HR, who said I was too young to have an internship. And then I found my way to this only guy reporter I knew on the air. And I stood by his desk until he came back. And I just said, Hi, I'm Nicole. And I would like to be your summer intern. That's badass. Oh, my God. That is so cool. That is such a cool story. You know, you always hear

about stories like that, but like, your heart must have been racing so fast while you were waiting for him to come back to his desk. I thought I would be escorted out of the building. Like there was a possibility that I would be arrested. I don't know. It could have turned out really weird. But instead, he was like, we do investigative consumer stories. So like like if you could figure out how to get in the building like lassie couldn't get in the building then you probably would be a really good intern so they went and they made an exception i think in hr and i was a freshman in college um at the time that's so cool that's how that happened i mean i think back on it right now

and i like have social anxiety just thinking about. But I was in my teens and like fearless. Yeah, a lot of crazy shit. Well, see, that's the thing. I think when you're younger, you're like, Yeah, I'll do whatever you need me to do. I'll like, go, you know, clean up the dog shit from your lawn, if you're gonna give me a job in something. And that's right. You know, the older you get, you're like, I'm not going to clean up your dog shit we're talking about. But when you're younger, you're just so hungry. Literally, you're so you are. Yeah, girls got to eat, you know, girls got I know exactly what you're talking about. And when you're young, and you're like, yeah, I'll work for $9 an hour part time. Sure, I'll do what you need me to do. And you're like starving behind the scenes. Totally. When I talk to young people now who want to have

informationals with me about like how I got to where I am. And if I have advice for them, I'm like, you know, no job is too small. You never know when you're gonna do a PA job on like a one day shoot. And then you're gonna meet somebody who going to like open a bunch of doors for you. So that's always what I tell people. I think that's just the best way to approach it. Just an open mind and just take whatever you can. Yeah. Yeah.

Hold on to your wallets. Money Rehab will be right back. One of the most stressful periods of my life was when I was in credit card debt. I got to a point where I just knew that I had to get it under control for my financial future and also for my mental health. We've all hit a point where we've realized it was time to make some serious money moves. So take control of your finances by using a time checking account with features like no maintenance fees, fee-free overdraft up to $200, or getting paid up to two days early with direct deposit. Learn more at Chime.com slash MNN. When you check out Chime,

you'll see that you can overdraft up to $200 with no fees. If you're an OG listener, you know about my infamous $35 overdraft fee that I got from buying a $7 latte and how I am still very fired up about it. If I had Chime back then, that wouldn't even be a story. Make your fall finances a little greener by working toward your financial goals with Chime. Open your account in just two minutes at Chime.com slash MNN. That's Chime.com slash MNN. Chime. Feels like progress. Banking services and debit card provided by the Bancorp Bank N.A. or Stride Bank And now for some more money rehab. Go to chime.com slash disclosures for details. And now for some more money rehab. In a chapter in your book, you compare the job to the movie Human Centipede, though.

Yes. Tell us more. So that's a very scientific theory, Nicole. I've done years and years of research. And by years of research, I mean I watched the movie and years of research. And by years of research, I mean, I watched the movie. And that's it feels right. So I think that this kind of applies to a lot of industries. I'm going to try to explain this in the most tactful way I can. So just the gist, these two women are lost, they go to this mad scientist's house, he drugs them, and then he makes an actual human centipede with all of them.

He sews each of them to each other in the way that a centipede would be. Basically ass to mouth. He sews them ass to mouth. So he thinks that they could just nourish each other with their feces. The reason I bring this up is because I compared it to the entertainment industry. Because the people in the very front defecate into the mouths of the people below them, metaphorically speaking,

and then those people defecate to the people beneath them. And then eventually the front centipede goes away and the person in the middle becomes the front centipede. So basically it's just a metaphor for how some people at the top badly treat the people below them. And because they people at the top badly treat the people below them. And because they're badly treated, they treat the people below them even worse. So it's this awful chain.

And then eventually, like somebody has to just break away from the centipede and just decide to be a good human being. Yeah, you're selling this. Oh my God. Real hard. It's awful. Oh, my God. Real hard. It's awful. Sign me up, too. Now, despite that metaphor, if somebody still would like to be an assistant, knowing that, what should they know about the career path that they may not know already well luckily for me i think it's because conan was never in a centipede again metaphorically speaking i mean

and also i guess literally speaking because i think he was never ever really treated that poorly from the people that he worked with he doesn't treat the people that work for him very poorly like hurt people like hurt people exactly exactly it's it's just like the cycle of verbal abuse that exists and sometimes you know i've heard stories about people throwing printers and phones at their assistants. And I think that luckily now we live in an era where it's very easy to put people on blast for being shitty people and shitty bosses. And it's happened over and over and over again. And I think that that makes people more careful. And I think there's no reason why anybody should like have to take any sort of abuse from people

because they think it's part of paying their dues. I think that era is just sort of over. I think bad people make bad bosses. And so I think that people need to be just sort of more secure in the things that they want from their job and not settle just because they think it'll get them somewhere else. If you're miserable at your job, there's ways to reassess that so that you can move on to something that makes you happier. Do you think it's different to be an assistant for a celebrity versus like a CEO, bigwig exec? Yeah, oh my god, I think so. I think the way that I acted at my job would never fly if I had to work for a CEO or like a politician

or someone in like a really serious profession. I was supposed to always work for someone who was a comedian because I think that's the only way my behavior would have flown. Would have flown. Yeah. Because I eventually just became material for Conan to make fun of. I eventually just became material for Conan to make fun of. So that was more valuable to him than me being super, super type A about my job. I think you just have to find whatever works with your personality. I think I never would have been able to wear a suit every day and like pumps and like walked into the office and like all serious, like, hello, everyone. Probably would have like, you know, had to look better.

And I know that I would never have lasted ever in that environment. And I never pursued it because I just know myself. I think it's this idea that, you know, it's easy to disappear potentially as an assistant. Yeah, because a lot of these entertainment companies I know from agencies, they don't even have that person's name on emails. They say like Conan, ASST assistant or whatever at whatever.com. But you really made this space for yourself. So was it a function of Conan? I'm sure some of that, but also you. So what advice would you give someone trying to make that space for themselves as an assistant? Well, going back to your question about working for a celebrity versus working for a CEO, I think that there's also better set boundaries, I think, in certain instances, when you are a personal assistant to a celebrity.

when you are a personal assistant to a celebrity, I've seen extremes where they're always around, you know, they're like another limb. They like take care of every facet of their lives. But Conan was never like that. He was never that kind of celebrity who required that from me. In that sense, that's a way that working for a celebrity is very sort of unique, but also they get to know you in a way very personally. They, they get to know like about your family, about where you come from because you spend so much time with them. And that part of the job is true for me and Conan is that even though I wasn't that kind of assistant who was always around him and always like available for him at like two in the morning,

three in the morning, whenever he needed, he texted me that never was our situation. But what did happen was because I worked for him so long, he got to know who I am. And he got to know about my family. And I think that I never set out to be a performer, I never set out to be someone who was involved in any of the comedy bits that he did. But it just happened very organically. And I think that that all that credit goes to Conan. I think that he really saw a place for me in certain things that he did. And it was easy for me to sort of transition into it because I never felt like I had anything to lose. And I still don't. Have there been crazy stories of

people being shitty to you? Yes. Like dismissing you as an assistant or being an asshole? You can tell a lot about a person by the way they treat assistants. Totally. You know, the way that people are. And then, you know, a few years into it, because I was becoming more sort of more in the forefront. I was becoming more noticeable as Conan's assistant, you know, I was being featured more on the show and different bits that we did. So people's attitude towards me changed, you know, it's almost like a lot of people started taking me seriously. But there were a lot of people in the beginning, who, you know, just treated me like an assistant, like a lot of people do. And who, you know, just treated me like an assistant,

like a lot of people do. And I think it goes back to what you said is that some assistants don't even have emails with their names on them because there's so much turnover. They're there for like a year, maybe even less, and then they move on to something else. So a lot of people, I think, don't necessarily feel like they have to be that friendly with someone's assistant because they're going to be gone. But in terms of people being rude, I'm lucky that it didn't happen that often. But there were definitely instances where, you know, people chewed me away from the office because they thought that I didn't deserve to be in there. I mean, luckily, it wasn't anyone that I worked with. But if there was somebody there was visiting, it happened like a handful of times, luckily, not that often. But

it definitely changed after I was being featured more. That kind of sucks. It does. It does. I know it does. But thank you for being honest. You know, I wrote about this in one of my books, I tend to think being an asshole is not the best business practice, but especially to assistants, like it really baffles me. I talked to all the assistants, like one of the assistants when I first started working with CAA became my agent and now is a friend. But also they like hold the calendar to the person you're trying to get into. And so if you're an asshole, like why would they go out of their way for you? It's just like such a stupid tactic. Yeah, to be a butthead to an assistant. I couldn't agree with you more. I, but also anybody, I don't understand why people are rude to interns, like someone who's an intern today can be the next hot director tomorrow. You know, like the directors that want Daniel Scheinert, I think who just won for everything. Yeah, the Daniels, one of them interned at the company that my husband worked for. He was an intern. And now he's an Oscar

winning director. So I just don't understand why anybody would choose to be rude or mean or dismissive to anybody in any part of the industry when tomorrow they could be the hottest, most in demand thing. And I think that that attitude of being just like overly rude to a lot of people is a very old school mentality. I'm hoping it's changing. I hope so. We end our episodes with a tip that our listeners can take straight to the bank. So if someone is aspiring to be the world's worst assistant, what advice would you give them? One piece of advice I would give, and this is gonna sound very cliche,

but always stay true to yourself. You don't have to lose yourself because you have a job that is highly coveted. You could stay true to what you want, know what your boundaries are, don't compromise. And if a job makes you miserable, if you hate going into work on Mondays, it's really not worth it. I personally never wanted to work in a job. And whether that was Burger King when I was 16 or working for Conan O'Brien now, I never allowed myself to stay in a job that made me viscerally unhappy.

And it's made all the difference. Just to clarify, I loved working at Burger King. I loved Burger King. I love working for Conan. I don't want to piss Burger King off because I love Burger King. Money Rehab is a production of Money News Network. I'm your host, Nicole Lappin. Money Rehab's executive producer is Morgan Levoy. Our researcher is Emily Holmes. Do you need some money rehab? And let's be honest, we all do. So email us your money questions, moneyrehab at moneynewsnetwork.com to potentially have your questions answered on the show or even have a one-on-one intervention with me and follow us on Instagram at Money News and

TikTok at Money News Network for exclusive video content. And lastly, thank you. No, seriously, thank you. Thank you for listening and for investing in yourself, which is the most important investment you can make. Thank you.