Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin - How To Confront Your Workplace Nemesis

Episode Date: May 18, 2023

Picture this: you come face-to-face with someone who really wronged you... what do you do? This happened recently to editor in chief of Entrepreneur Magazine, Jason Feifer— and how he handled it had Nicole shook. Today, Nicole shares this story, as told in her podcast with Jason, Help Wanted. Jason and Nicole have different approaches to confrontation, but they agree on the best mechanism to achieve closure after someone does you wrong. Today, they pass it on to you. Don't miss an episode! Subscribe to Help Wanted: https://link.chtbl.com/85RcT5bT

One of the most stressful periods of my life was when I was in credit card debt. I got to a point where I just knew that I had to get it under control for my financial future and also for my mental health. We've all hit a point where we've realized it was time to make some serious money moves. So take control of your finances by using a Chime checking account with features like no maintenance fees, fee-free overdraft up to $200, or getting paid up to two days early with direct deposit. Learn more at Chime.com slash MNN. When you check out Chime, you'll see that you can overdraft up to $200 with no fees. If you're an OG listener, you know about my infamous $35 overdraft fee that

I got from buying a $7 latte and how I am still very fired up about it. If I had Chime back then, that wouldn't even be a story. Make your fall finances a little greener by working toward your financial goals with Chime. Open your account in just two minutes at Chime.com slash MNN. That's Chime.com slash MNN. Chime. Feels like progress. Banking services and debit card provided by the Bancorp Bank N.A. or Stride Bank N.A. Members FDIC. SpotMe eligibility requirements and overdraft limits apply. Boosts are available to eligible Chime members enrolled in SpotMe and are subject to monthly limits. Terms and conditions apply. Go to Chime.com slash disclosures for details.

I'm Nicole Lappin, the only financial expert you don't need a dictionary to understand. It's time for some money rehab. You guys know Jason Pfeiffer. He's the editor-in-chief of Entrepreneur Magazine. He's been a guest on Money Rehab a whole bunch of times, and I co-host the podcast Help Wanted with him. So you and Jason go way back at this point, and I'm sure you get his vibe. He's very thoughtful, a brilliant business mind, and super composed, especially compared to me, which is why the story he told me the other day on Help Wanted actually blew my mind. I don't want to give too much away, but Jason ran into someone who tried to hurt his career, and Jason's response had my jaw on the floor. It was the last thing I expected Jason to do. But you know what? It ended up being pretty perfect. You're about to hear that story,

and it turns into a bigger conversation about how we should handle the situations where someone does us wrong. So buckle up. Here's the story. This is Help Wanted, the show that tackles all the big work questions you cannot ask anyone else. I'm Jason Pfeiffer, editor-in-chief of Entrepreneur Magazine. And I'm New York Times bestselling author and money expert, Nicole Lappin. The helpline is open. Nicole, I'm sure the answer is yes, because the answer is yes for everybody in the world. But has someone done you wrong in your life? I would love to meet the person for which that answer is no. Have you ever seen somebody that maybe you didn't plan on ever talking to

again or that you just you carry a lot of emotional weight with, and you had to decide what to do about that. Do you confront them? Do you just leave it alone? Are bygones bygones? What had happened, Jason? This is real fresh. I just want people to understand listening to this. We had scheduled a recording session for our show on a Friday. And then a few hours ago, this thing happened that I'm about to tell you about. And I just figured I'm just going to tell it to you live. So some background that you know that I'm going to inform the listeners of that I'm going to have to be somewhat vague about for reasons you'll understand in a second, is that the most traumatic experience of my life was being

sued. And it was awful. And I'm still not entirely sure what I can and can't talk about, so I'm not going to talk about it much, but except to say that it was incredibly awful and it went on for years. And I lost a lot of sleep and money and it was terrible. And it was resolved a couple of years ago. It has been years. And I don't think about it that much anymore. But the weird thing about a moment like that is you don't... There's kind of not closure. At some point, something happens. Some sort of administrative thing happens. And there's this collection of people, your lawyers, their lawyers, all these people that you have a lot of feelings about. And then suddenly they all disperse. It's like a piece of paper is signed and everybody

goes away. And that was a weird thing, but that's fine. And that was years ago. Today, three hours before this recording, I am walking down the sidewalk in Manhattan. And I am actually leaving a voice memo for a friend who I was giving some advice about public speaking on. She's doing some speaking and I had some thoughts for her. And so I'm actually leaving a voice memo for a friend who I was giving some advice about public speaking on. She's doing some speaking and I had some thoughts for her. And so I'm just kind of walking down the sidewalk and enjoying the nice spring day in New York and talking about my advice for public speaking. And then I'm going to pass this person on the sidewalk. We're going to walk right next to each other. And this person looks at me and then looks away. And I immediately

recognize them as the lead lawyer for the guy who sued me. I have sat across this guy, across a table from this guy. I did it for years. I fucking hated that guy. That guy tried to ruin my life for years. And he was so obnoxious and so aggressive. I remember sitting at tables and like thinking, can I telekinetically make this pen fly into his eye? Like I just fucking hated this guy. Wow. It turns out I do not have telekinesis. It's very unfortunate. And there he is. I haven't seen him in years. And you know, you only have a split second to react to someone. I don't know, Nicole, that you have ever seen me angry. We've known each other for years. I don't get angry. But I was like, I can't just walk past him and be like, huh, that was funny. So what I did was I just said his name in the most menacing way possible. I'm not even going to say his...

I'm just going to pick his name. His name is not Steve. So I'm just going to say it's Steve. I was like, hey, Steve. I'm sure he was petrified. Just like the most menacing way possible. And we kept walking. But now we are turned around and looking at each other. And I can tell he knows who I am. And he's like in a suit. I presume he's on the way to meet a client or something. I don't know what he's doing. And he's looking at me and he's clearly trying to figure out what he should do. This all happens really fast. I have like a second to think about what to do here. And I thought I have three options. Well, I guess I have four options. Number one is that I don't do anything. I've already said, Steve. Pens and

eyeballs better be another. Can't wait. Violence was not one of the options. My options are all within the realm of what is not going to lead to another legal battle. Smart. So my options were don't do anything. Go over and like say hi. What would we even talk about? I don't want to hear his voice. Number three, scream, like, you know, yell something at him, like insult him, make a scene on the sidewalk. This man tried to ruin. I don't know. Or number four, which is what I did, which is that I just flipped him off. No, you didn't. Yes, I did. I just raised my hand and I gave him the middle finger and I held it for a second.

He saw it. And then I turned around and walked away. Jason, I have never been more proud. I'm dying. I didn't even think that was going to be on your top 100 options to do. Okay, Jason. Did he see it? Oh, he saw it.

And then what happened? As I was turning around, the way that I was thinking about it was, there's only one thing that I have to say to you. If there's anything open in the relationship that we have together, the closure is for me to deliver a single message to you. And that message is, fuck you.

Is there anything else to say to this person? That was the message. It was delivered. Was it reciprocated? It was not. He just seemed to absorb it and then turned around and kept walking, I think. It all happened very fast.

But I would say that I flipped him off. I held it for a second. And then I started to turn around. And I think that he started to turn around and we walked our separate ways. And then very weirdly, because I was still recording this voice memo to my friend. I was just going to ask.

Did you keep going? Yeah. My friend had already known about the lawsuit. And then I just explained what happened. I got to process it in real time in this voice memo. It's the craziest. Can we play some of it? Maybe a little.

We have to go back to the scene of the crime. All right, we'll play a tiny bit. Holy shit. Was that the right thing to do? I think that was the right thing the crime. All right, we'll play a tiny bit. Holy shit. Was that the right thing to do? I think that was the right thing to do. What else was there to do? Fuck that guy. Jesus Christ.

I basically like tried to process it out in real time because I was like, this thing is running. Also, my friend is a psychotherapist. Convenient. Very convenient. Anyway, I did that. And then that voice memo was going to be the length of this episode. And then eventually I somehow actually got back to finishing my point about the public speaking tip. But I want to tell you the story because I don't confront people. That's not a thing that I've ever had to do. Not because I'm afraid of confrontation, but because if I have to do something, I do it. But it's never personal. I'm not afraid of confrontation in a professional sense. If we need to have a hard professional conversation, I know how to have that hard professional conversation. But I've never

had to have an emotional confrontation. And I don't know how to navigate it. And I don't know what I would even do. And the one data point I have is what happened about three hours ago. I was shaking a little bit afterwards. But then I started to think about it and process it. And I was like, you know what? I win and he loses. I'm fine. I spent years trying to fuck me. There were definitely efforts in that case to destroy me, to destroy my reputation, to destroy my finances. And this day I was coming from a speaking engagement, the very large company. I was feeling very good about myself and how it happened. And I was thinking about the rest of the day. And, you know, we've got like hours blocked out where you and I are going to make this show or building this company, which I'm really happy about. And

I'm doing work that I love. I'm giving advice to my friend on this voice memo that's like very hard won advice because I've been doing this thing for years and I'm proud of it. And now here's this motherfucker who's walking down the street who like tried to take all that away

and he didn't. The only message that I have for him is fuck you. And then I get to walk away and keep having won. And he keeps having, I don't know, have a life where he just goes and tries to screw people. That sounds pretty terrible. He wasn't even very good at it. Let it out, Jason. I've never seen you hate anyone. I really hated him. And you know, it's weird. It's like the only closure that I'm ever going to get from this entire experience is that that just happened right now. That's it.

The guy who sued me is not going to reach out and apologize. So this is it. That was closure. That's what catharsis looks like. I don't even know what to do with this, except to tell you that I feel happy that that is how I handled it. And I don't know if that was the right way to handle it, but that's how I did it.

I'm kind of happy that I learned that that is how I would handle that moment. I'm happy that you're happy. I'm kind of happy that I learned that that is how I would handle that moment. I'm happy that you're happy. I think it's awesome that you did that. First of all, I think closure is a fallacy in general, right? Like they're never going to in any relationship, personal, professional, like this idea of some magical closure that's going to make everything better doesn't exist. When faced with this moment that you probably never thought through before, right? You never thought to yourself, you know, like, self, what if I run into motherfucker Steven on the street?

What am I going to do? One of three things. Am I going to stop my voice recording that I'm doing? By the way, I love the fact that you continued the voice recording. You were probably a few minutes in already. So that, and we also now have evidence of this moment, this very critical moment, chef's kiss. You continued exactly what you were doing. You quickly assessed your options, and I think you picked the best one. Thank you. Was there another option?

You could have kept walking. You could have stopped your voice recording, said something, which you probably would have regretted because you didn't think it out. And then you later would have been like, I shouldn't have said this. I should have said that. But you didn't really think it through in advance to say something you would be proud of, I assume. Right. Right.

Like you never even thought that seeing him again would happen. Or maybe you did. And maybe you like fantasized about, you know, his eyeball puncture or something like that. Everybody has rage fantasies. Absolutely. So, yes, I suppose I had rage fantasies, but like that rage fantasy is those are the things that in real life would get you arrested. I have better sense than to enact any of that. You are not a violent man. And it's really hard to do those things in person. Maybe you would have thought through, or perhaps you would have even written through a cathartic email or like a thing to just get it out,

like exactly what you would have wanted to say. I never did that. I thought about doing that, but I realized it would just sound crazy or it would sound incredibly dramatic. I couldn't imagine actually sending it because that would be ridiculously stupid, but I could imagine what would happen if I did send it,

which is that he wouldn't give a shit. Why would he care? The person on the opposing side is upset at him. That happens every day. So what am I going to say that's going to make him crumble and cry? I don't think that I have anything that I could say. I don't think that there were words that I could use

that would accomplish anything. Whenever I think through any interaction or action that is just possibly questionable or risky or something, I just try to think, like, what are the upsides and what are the downsides? Like, what do I get from this and what do I potentially lose from this? Anything on social media that is not universally simple,

like anything that's confrontational on social media, the downside is so much larger than the upside. You get almost nothing from being confrontational to social media. And the downside is it's exponential. So whenever I think about that, I think, you know, like if you get heated about something and you're like, I'm going to tweet. And then I stop and I'm like, no, I'm not going to tweet. So I would have thought that through if I actually sat down and tried to write the guy an email. I suppose I could have written an email if I actually sat down and tried to write the guy an email. I suppose I could have written an email that I never sent just for the catharsis of that.

I think we've all done that. I've certainly done versions of that. And I was just like, I'm going to write the thing and I'm never going to send it. But in the moment, I think that you're right that had I tried to go and talk to him, whatever would have come out of my mouth would not have been controlled enough that I would have been proud about it later. And also, he would have come out of my mouth would not have been controlled enough that I would have been proud about it later. And also, he would have been able to speak back. And I don't think that I have any interest in hearing what he has to say. So what's the point? What's the point of being confrontational like that?

I never understood why people just go pick fights just for the sake of it. Instead, they just menacingly say their name and flip them off. Yes, that felt fine to me. I mean, really, I'm impressed because in those few seconds, really, you processed a lot of information going on and multitask doing it. So you process the fact that you're in a better place, you're successful, you're making money. You are the opposite of destroyed, right? So you're feeling like, fuck this guy, I win with my life and my success. Then you quickly went through some of your

options. You ruled out anything illegal, A plus. And then you said to yourself, I'm assuming like, I want to show him somehow that he sucks. And you flipped him off. And then you continued your voice memo. I think this was a success. I think you somehow processed over the years this idea that we know, but it's hard to put into action, right? Like the words you would have said to him would have been meaningless. If you moved to disbar him, those actions would have been meaningful. But the words and like the heartache that you have is this idea of taking poison, hoping the other person will die, right?

We do this a lot. We, you know, punch ourselves to try and hurt somebody else. And that just hurts ourselves. But not doing that is a really hard thing to do, especially when people have wronged us. It's not ultimately going to be beneficial. And so I think while closure is never something to be expected, and even when some semblance of it happens,

it's never enough in a lot of ways. I think yours was. Thank you. I think this is a good ending to this story. I think you should feel really good about it. I do feel really good about it. There was a brief moment where I was like, what I should have yelled was,

you failed. But I'm like, that's stupid. And also maybe he wouldn't have even heard me. And I would have to do it again. You failed. That would have made for a better voice recording. So selfishly for the show, I would have liked hearing some more audibles. But I think that it was impressive that in that moment, you came up with that. I don't remember the last time I flipped anybody off in my life. Neither do I. But I can't imagine thinking of that as an option. In fact, as we're saying it, Morgan chatted to us that she was like screaming and couldn't believe it. And I also couldn't believe that that was what you had come up with. But it feels like poetic justice. It feels right.

Stick around. Help Wanted will be right back. One of the most stressful periods of my life was when I was in credit card debt. I got to a point where I just knew that I had to get it under control for my financial future and also for my mental health. We've all hit a point where we've realized it was time to make some serious money moves. So take control of your finances by using a time checking account with features like We've all hit a point where we've realized it was time to make some serious money moves. So take control of your finances by using a Chime checking account with features like

no maintenance fees, fee-free overdraft up to $200, or getting paid up to two days early with direct deposit. Learn more at Chime.com slash MNN. When you check out Chime, you'll see that you can overdraft up to $200 with no fees. If you're an OG listener, you know about my infamous $35 overdraft fee that I got from buying a $7 latte and how I am still very fired up about it. If I had Chime back then, that wouldn't even be a story. Make your fall finances a little greener by working toward your financial goals with Chime. Open your account in just two minutes

at Chime.com slash MNN. That's Ch chime.com slash MNN. Chime feels like progress. Banking services and debit card provided by the Bancorp Bank N.A. or Stride Bank N.A. Members FDIC. SpotMe eligibility requirements and overdraft limits apply. Boosts are available to eligible Chime members enrolled in SpotMe and are subject to monthly limits. Terms and conditions apply. Go to chime.com slash disclosures for details. Welcome back to Help Wanted. Let's get to it. I'll tell you a really quick story where I failed at this recently, this week, actually. There was a conference that I was at. Morgan and I both went to Miami. And of course, we're trying to

build the aforementioned company and make it successful and trying to, you know, get business. And we were invited to like a high level marketing conference in Miami last minute. And we went. And as I was saying, like, you know what? Yeah, let's go. Let's do this. Last minute, you know, take advantage of the opportunity. Book the things. Buy the ticket. Take the ride. So I was looking at the list of attendees and I see somebody who really fucked me over. Like, really in a deep, painful, visceral, like, personal way.

Whoa. And how long ago? In the beginning of the pandemic. All right, pretty fresh. And I was like, oh, I haven't thought of this motherfucker in a really long time. But here he is. He is speaking at this conference. His company is sponsoring some of the conference.

Like, I don't know anything about the conference. This is the first year this conference has His company is sponsoring some of the conference. Like, I don't know anything about the conferences. The first year this conference has been put on, I've been to conferences before where I kind of know the lay of the land. Like, would I need to hide from somebody? Like, here's where I would do that. Here's what I would avoid. And so he thought to himself, like, do I not go to this conference? And Morgan and I codenamed him Voldemort. You could also go with Steve. Sure, let's say Steve too was there. So would not going and potentially missing out on my success and my business opportunities be the right thing to do?

You know, reluctantly, I ruled that out. Then I thought, I'm going to run into him. Like, I don't know how many people are in this conference or like, is it small groups speaking, small dinners? Like, I don't know, but I'm assuming I'm going to see him. And then when I do, what am I going to say to him? And so I had more time than you did to think through this. And some of my options were like, he would say something like, nice to see you. And I would say like, it's not nice to see you. That makes one of us. That's the problem with these confrontations. There's like no good biting commentary.

Totally. And it never happens how you imagine it. So like, maybe he didn't say that. And I was like, fuck, now what do I say? Or maybe I say something like, life is long, the world is small or like, I don't know, like, what does that mean even? Like, and is that going to help me? Am I going to chicken out saying that? And is it going to come across the right way? Right. It's not a movie. There's no dramatic music and no dramatic lighting. It's not paced properly. And whatever you say is uncontrollable. So I'm like dreading this moment. I think of a few like quips, but I'm not in love with any of them. And I don't know how it's going to play out.

So inevitably it will be different and hopefully better, but likely worse than I, you know, rage fantasized about it. And third, I could ignore him. I could you know, rage fantasized about it. And third, I could ignore him. I could duck out, which is ultimately what I did. When I saw him and his ugly ass self from a distance, the list of people that I hate is not long. Like, really, who have done bad things to me.

who have done bad things to me. And so I then just felt like the best thing for my mental health and the best thing for the overall experience net net was to just avoid this guy. And to just say like, Voldemort is like at 11 o'clock, like we're going to go to four o'clock or whatever. I never know those like orientations, but I're going to go to four o'clock or whatever. I never know those

like orientations, but I'm going to go the other way. And I did that three times. I saw him from a distance. And one time it was very, very close. Going to the other side of the room didn't lessen my experience, but it didn't worsen my experience, which seeing him or going in the same direction to increase the likelihood that I would see him likely would have worsened my experience. So that's what I decided. long does someone get, this is a very internet-y phrase, how long does someone get to live rent-free in your head? Because for both of us, Steve and Steve 2, they're characters in our lives, but they're not somebody that, I mean, I'm not waking up every day actively thinking about that lawyer, and I assume you're not actively thinking every day about this person who screwed you over. But if we have some kind of sustained, awkward interaction where we feel like we didn't accomplish everything that we wanted to, they're back in our heads. We're going to start ruminating about it. We're going to want another round, which is never going to come.

We're going to revive the monster, like the monster that was in our heads back when they were actively fucking us. Fucking us over. Fucking us over. Sorry, good clarification. That lawyer for a very long time was someone I thought about a lot because I had to deal with them every fucking day. And now I don't. I remembered his first name. I actually took a while for me to remember his last name. I have it now. But if I had gone and tried to yell at that guy and we got into, God knows what, like some screaming match or I was unhinged and he took the higher ground, whatever it was, I would have had a whole lot to think about and to regret and to play over and over in my head.

And then that motherfucker is back in my head for some amount of time before I can finally move on from him again. And that just doesn't seem worth it. I have, you have, we all have just a fixed amount of bandwidth in our heads, and I would like to spend as much of that bandwidth as I can on things that matter, at least things that matter to me, and I don't want to give any more of that bandwidth, and I think that that was the reason why I reacted the way that I did, because I thought, I do need to communicate something to him in this very unexpected, rare moment that I have. But I just want it to be really simple and not complicated and nothing that I have to think more about except to tell the story,

which is what I'm enjoying doing now. And I think the same thing is true for you. Had you confronted that guy, you would have had something to think about afterwards. Instead, you let yourself off of that bullshit because nothing would have come out of it. There were no upsides. There were only downsides. And now you don't really have to think about it. It happened. It was a thing. I assume the only reason you thought about it is because it's related to the story that I'm telling you. It's not like you woke up this morning and you're like, ah, maybe I should have said something. You're right. Not part of the active thing that you're thinking about. And that's what matters, I think.

These things will always come up. There will be some reason five years from now for Steve, the terrible lawyer, to pop back into my head. But now you know what I'm going to think? I'm going to think, I flipped that fucking guy off. And that was awesome. And, you know, I think you were talking about this calculus, maybe, you know, consciously or unconsciously that you did about the risk reward balance. And there would have been a lot more liability for both of us, by the way. If I would have flipped off Voldemort, I would have looked crazy. We were in like the context of other professional people that I was trying to do business with. Or if I told him off, then he would tell other people potentially. And then that only has downside that it becomes like a he said, she said thing. There was nothing great that would have come out of me saying my little one-liners

or confronting him in some way or whatever. Like the liability to that was much higher than doing nothing, which was not as satisfying, admittedly so, as flipping somebody off and menacingly saying their name while also continuing on a voice memo. But it was the path of least resistance, I think. And I'm going to take that as a victory. I think that was a victory. I think we did good. We've done good, Jason. And you know who we did good for? Is we did good for ourselves, which is what matters. Because fuck these people.

Help Wanted is a production of Money News Network. Help Wanted is hosted by me, Jason Pfeiffer. And me, Nicole Lapin. Our executive producer is Morgan Lavoie. If you want some help, email our helpline at helpwanted at moneynewsnetwork.com for the chance to have some of your questions answered on the show. And follow us on Instagram at moneynews and TikTok at moneynewsnetwork

for exclusive content and to see our beautiful faces. Maybe a little dance? Oh, I didn't sign up for that. All right, well, talk to you soon. Thank you.